I installed a Fluidampr on my EJ205 as a reliability mod and I love it. It might be a stretch but I feel like I'm burning less oil after. I think MotoIQ's article comparing all three of these on a relatively stock BRZ speaks volumes; despite the extra weight the Fluidampr made more horsepower on the dyno and showed a much smoother power curve.
I swear by fluid dampener on EVERY motor I've ever build! reason being the balancer/pully affects the harmonics of the crank and thus affects the valve train. this is why belts are preferred as they help dampen these harmonics. This harmonics can cause tuning disruptions, valve bouncing, and so many other weird phenomenon leading to destruction. This was an awesome very well informative video with a great explanation! 10/10 said it like you read the same books or followed the same builders!
although super funny I build LSx motors blindfolded, and Honda motors time to time, and had built some crazy rotaries too *in fact a lot of the TH-cam junk is just that*! worked for Mazda motorsports specifically in R&D for their experimental scale GPT car they had been developing for a new car in series back in 2016. That's a weird story. but they swore by harmonic control and dampening. But seemingly all engines have this same combustion harmonics and these harmonics VSTLY effect the engine life. Koenigsegg free valve tech and some new2 machining styles have made some insane motors with near zero harmonics and ABSURE power for their size because of it.
Great topic to discuss. I feel like for the small hp gain probably safer to use stock and if I do a big build I'll go with the fluid damper. Thanks for the edumacation lol.
@@leftyo9589 The point is to have a reliable daily driver and not a shitbox sti for 10 hp you won't notice anyway lol. Then blame subaru when there is engine failure to your car.
Hey Tanner, I really like these informational videos you've put out, they really have broadened my knowledge of subarus specifically and, also, cars as a whole. Thanks a ton dude!
I have a fluidampr on my MK7 GTI. It has not only smoothed out the idle, but has also allowed the car to pull all the way to redline before I was experiencing some timing retardation due to the false knock. This has completely cleaned all that up highly recommend.
Really glad you made a video about this, i knew Im going in the direction of a Fluidampr for my 17 wrx, but could never get a full answer as to why its better for everything. I'm only around the 370 wheel mark rn, but with a lightweight flywheel i feel a ton of bouncing. Definitely made the mistake of going with LW after only having the car for a week lol
Ever since I was a little larva I was told to always upgrade the pulleys on your car. Im done with mods for my wrx for now. I'll for sure look into a pulley for my mustang. Thanks for the educational video Tanner!
Fluidamper rocks !! Thanks for putting some basic science behind harmonic balancers. Noticed a wobble coming from my noisy 02 WRX. Decided on the Fluidamper and I can say that my 02 still Loves me !!🙂
@@Smeedia Was looking for a replacement as the OEM rubber was beginning to disintegrate. Fluidamper was so expensive compared to rest and was curious how it would do: Wow cleaned up the wonk and vibrations. Keep up the great videos !!
@@mikekillion4731 Hi - it's 2002 WRX Wagon - Automatic, with a EJ205AX3BB engine. I think I'm the 2nd owner and replaced the original crank pulley at around 250,000 KMs. Saw the crank a little wobbley when idling, inspected it and could see bits of hardened rubber missing. Replaced it and the engine idled incredibly smooth, though not sure how a new oem would compare. worth the price for fluidamper !!
Oh my goodness, I have been waiting for this exact video ever since you said that a fluid damper was something you installed when you cared for longevity! :D
My stock one did exactly what he said and split thank god it was in my driveway. Got a fluidampr never looked back significantly smoother. 13 WRX 330whp/350wtq
Great info Tanner, I just realized I shouldn't go light weight pulley on my boosted Nissan Spec V, and will def go with Fluidamper on the STI build. Thanks a million man!
This reminds me, I grew up working on old vw's, and I thought it was so weird how most other engines had big chunky dampers and vw's ran these single row, really light weight pulley that was mainly just used for timing marks.
It's a bit different with pushrod engines than modern OHC engines. But when I saw the built ones, many had dampers added or went total lightweight. But rebuilding a vw engine is like a weekend lol.
I've been running the Fluiddampener for a bit now. Seems to work well for my application. And for less rotational mass I plan to install a carbon fiber driveshaft.
Great information Tanner. My 14 Hatch is pretty stock, but longevity is my thing so a fluid dampner maybe overkill but help longevity. Thank you for the info, now get that Hatch on the scales, I want to see some power bro!!!! 🥃🥃🥃
Yup, my factory damper delaminated. I was able to get another from a member of a local subaru group for $5. I have a Fluidamper for my new build, since the ati has a rebuild interval.
I'll add a forth option to this that might be worth considering as a cheaper alternative. Some quality aftermarket dampened pulleys are lighter than stock. On my old hawkeye the OEM pulley as you mentioned separated the two rings. In desperation I ordered a Febi-Bilstein pulley from Amazon due to next day delivery. On arrival I instantly noticed the Febi one to be lighter.. Not only did the engine rev more freely, it also seemed to reduce the NVH a little. But that could have been due to the old worn rubber on the OEM pulley. I've considered just replacing my hatch pulley before the OEM one fails. Keep up the great work. Awesome content as always.
Fluiddamp crank pulley and lightweight pulleys combo. I had full lightweight pulleys and intake on an frs. A bit louder engine idle and maybe 5 hp. Just get a fluid damp and reduce weight without reducing reliability.
@@lauchongyee9062 Nah I had the lightweight pulley kit from raceseng with the lightweight crank pulley. For 15k miles moved on to other cars. I would have liked to replace the crank with a fluid damp because it will only help with reliability. It won’t hurt. Also lots of people have a good argument not to change pulleys on an FRS because money could be better used for exhaust, tune, brakes, tires etc and I agree.
I paid $366 for my Fluidampr pulley almost 3 years ago. I haven't installed it yet because I'm probably going to save it for my V9 EJ207 that's on standby in case my EJ205 pops. From what I read while in the rabbit hole, the lightweight pulleys are worse in the long run if you are combining them with lighter flywheels. You will start to notice that the daily driveability will suffer, meaning your revs will be all over the place. OTOH, if you track the car, then you'd be better off because you're not trying to maintain a set speed limit. The EJ's crankshaft is also balanced with the damper installed, and by installing a lighter pulley, you will increase oscillations. That is not a good thing. IMHO, I feel that a lot of newer Subaru owners comb over the aftermarket sites and look for something that claims more power but doesn't break the bank. Hence, the slick marketing for the lightweight pulleys. Just my .02 cents. Anybody is welcome to do as they please. Just do your research.
100%, I left out lightweight flywheels from this intentionally. Personally, I stick with OE. When possible, I will keep the mass on the crank to help with inertia when turning over. Funny enough I came across an email from SOA stating the oe pulley is nothing more than a pulley as well. But like I stated I always suggest the fluidampers 🤝
I believe I saw a post on the forums(not sure which) where someone shared the same reply from SOA. A pulley that has an elastomeric ring surrounding it and they(SOA) call it a pulley just sounds odd. I know that the OE pulleys will literally come apart, which is why I'm thankful for an aftermarket solution. Maybe I'll buy a second Fluidampr and finally get around to installing one on my EJ205. I also have to do the timing belt... Oh and let's not forget about the OE cam pulleys that crack💸💸💸
Perrin LWCP here on my 2011 WRX . The only “issue” I had was engine stumble at idle , or when the revs were dropping down to idle ….. you can eliminate the stumble by increasing engine idle RPM range. I grabbed my Accessport and increased idle with A/C off by 100 RPM With A/C on, I increased idle by 125 rpm Engine stumble has been eliminated for 10 years now with no issues at all. Car revs like a champ.
I’ve been finding myself coming back to your page more and more when it comes to info on parts. Thank you for doing what you do man. Just grabbed myself a fluid dampner
As per what a dampner is, most engines do have a "dampner" and it would almost always take a cross section to see how much rubber or composite is used to soak up vibration and resonance. Lightened pullys (as a a dyno technician) I have noted that in about 30% of circumstances INCREASE the amount of resonance past having none, due to essentially adding a tuning fork to the end.
If you want to rev up faster, get a button clutch and super lightweight flywheel. The fluid damper is indeed heavier than stock, but it's the same outer diameter as stock, which means the mass is added on a shorter radius, which is easier to accelerate anyway. A smaller diameter clutch and flywheel has 4-times the effect that a somewhat heavier damper has.
Great video man! Wish I had it years ago when I started my build 😅 I started with a lightweight and then switched to a fluidampr when doing turbo swap, bigger injectors, etc.
Nice vidya. I thankfully had an expert convince me to get an OEM instead of a lightweight pulley for a 400whp bb500 build and I’m very happy with it. Maybe if I go rotated I’ll do the fluid damper
For FA WRX's, the issue to look out for is the rods which are connected to ... the hip bone (j/k); crank shaft. My assumption is that this is that rod failure typically happens from "bigger booms" after say 350 to 375 torque. Would a fluid damper help? Hopefully I asked the question right. Sorry if I didn't in advanced. BTW, I've learned so much from your channel man. Sooooo much. Thanks big time.
Thanks for explaining all of this. My crank pulley seized on my 05 STI. It's moderately modified. I was going to order the perrin buy the cons aren't worth taking a chance. But God damn that damper is expensive! Guess I'm just getting OEM. Thanks again. ❤
The correct pulley makes a big difference. I have a cranky old man (machine wizard) building a Chevy 327 for me, getting fully balanced and all. He still recommended the 10in 350 HB over the 327 6in stocker. Bigger, heavier one worth 15hp in the mid range since it smooths out everything a lot. The actual harmonics from the combustion pulses causes hp loss cause it starts to resonate and shake the engine apart
@@andreahighsides7756 We are building a small journal 327, 63 to be exact. The factory pulley was a 6in. Factory switched to 10in for all SBC sizes in 67. Now while I don't have the Dyno charts, I am sure GM has them burried somewhere
When I bought my wrx it came with a gfb lightweight pulley kit. I really want a different pulley tbh. But I don’t wanna spend $450 on the fluidampr and I don’t want to spend $180 on an oem pulley. I need to find a used oem pulley lol. Great video tanner
5:16 To add a bit to this discussion, I'd like to relay to you guys that, an engineer once told me that the only two piston driven engine rotational assemblies that achieve a "natural balance" at any point of their cycle is the flat four and the V12. This bit of info led me to form the opinion of, this inherent stability being the reason that the Subaru h4 can get away with just a little bit more tortional vibration than other engine designs.
it helps me a lot considering i have a 07 wrx tr which i will keep as a daily but will being a transmission swap from 5 spd to a sti 6 thank you humbly and keep them right. subie life
Perrin lightweight crank pulley still goin strong on my wrx with 67k miles 🙏 I think the Perrin LCP does the opposite of NVH reduction, lol. Still a bit of a sketchy mod
Thanks for saying this. Between you and this video I think I'll go with the Fluidampr. Would love smoother operation and I can make up for the extra weight with the accessory pulley upgrades.
5-10hp? That's a lot more than I thought it would give. I'd assume it would affect how fast an engine revs because of the inertia but I didn't think it would actually affect power.
Easily one of the best explanations on this particular subject. I have a nearly full bolt on 2018 WRX and have had the Perrin Lightweight Pulley on it since I’ve owned the car (about 2 years). I dyno at 337hp / 348 ft lbs on 93 oct with a pro tune (shout out to Fastech Motorsports in Louisville, TN) Zero issues thus far. But a lot of people cling to the harmonic balancer idea like it’s the end of the world to have one. If I decide to go for more power I’ll definitely change over to a Fluid Damper.
Finally installed by Grimspeed lightweight pulley. (-3.5lbs from stock) and definitely feel the difference when rev matching and generally revs faster. I felt like the added weight over the Perrin pulley would keep me from any Cels and hopefully not do any damage. The 1.2lb Perrin pulley just seems too light to me lol. Wish I could afford a fluid damper mind you, but alas, daily driver WRX not a crazy build.
Hey man. Before I forget while watching the video. Any way you could make one of your great install videos on turbo inlets? I trust your stuff so it would be greatly appreciated if you get the chance! But if it isn't happening I understand! If there is a good video somewhere you can recommend that would be great. Just seems like there's not really anything great out there that I could find! Thanks again man! Now onto watching your video and leaving a like of course!
On a DI engine, the LW pulleys do beat the accessories to death due to crank chatter, but on non-DI, a lightweight one also with smaller diameter is good for maximum HP as in racing use.
i used a grimmspeed pulley for 5 years and maybe 20,000 miles on it. not bad. going back to oem now to see how my 4.44 gear ratio will be with ej255, vf48
don't know if you'll see this comment but you were on my recommended and the video was great, was kinda disappointed when I went to your page and seen just subie videos, but this informational video was really easy to understand and actually kept my attention, would defo subscribe if you started doing informational videos alongside the regular subie videos
timely as always, dood! So, lets say stage 3 is the upper limit of what the engine will see (Upgraded intercooler, ID1300s, 16G or similar, full 3" exhaust...etc.). What would your recommendation be here? assume 325-375whp ish...
2009 subaru legacy had the outer ring of the pulley come off and eat through my plastic timing belt cover and well now I own a 2013 Outback (timing chain)
Very few motors were externally balanced. The Chevy 400 was, all other small block chevys were internally balanced. The harmonic balancer has nothing to do with balancing a engine. It is there to minimize torsional vibrations . The longer your crankshaft the more you need one.The more power you make the more you need one. Internally balancing an engine is nothing new.
the problem with LW vs FLDDPR is that Fluidampr might not support each engine whereas you can probably find a lightweight pulley for even the most obscure engine...
I grabbed a fluid damper for my eg33. Did a bunch of research as well. I paid about 600 canadian for mine and had to wait 6 months for it to be made. But was worth it.
For an EG33 I wouldn't really worry about it, the boxer 6 is one of the best naturally balanced designs ever and they have a relatively short crankshaft torsional twist isn't usually an issue. I have researched using fluidamper but couldn't find enough reason to bother. I am not an expert by any means and anything you do to your build is good for you, I know you sure didn't make things worse.
I will also add the crank and stock rods are both forged in the EG33 even if the rods are a bit too thin so having those forged also helps keep things going fine without the vibration damping. I ran that exact Perrin LWCP on my SVX for 8 or more years but I was also running the stock ECU with Chip for fuel and timing mods that got me about 200 AWHP with stock injectors and some supporting mods, I also changed the tune and put in Nissan MAF and 550 Sti injectors without any issue but only ran that for a couple years. never did get a chance to re-dyno it. i was also running a sti 6 speed.
@@black69camaro2344 agreed. They are well balanced. But the stock one I had was starting to separate. I also found info that when you are loading the crank with higher torque (more than stock obviously which is the end goal) the fluid damper helps with the accessory drive stuff not getting the shock transferred through. Unless I misinterpreted that part.
@@jaredoliver3296 No I think you have it right, I don't know that the fluidampner is needed unless your going with 600 plus power and the light pulley is probably going to be fine for a lot less money. but the fluidampner isn't a bad idea at all.
@@black69camaro2344 agreed. I plan on supercharging or adding a turbo to my svx in the future so figured I would just buy it now. Maybe looking for the 400 wheel mark but will have to go standalone at that time
What gets me, why are fluid dampers so expensive? I know the silicon fluid is expensive but the materials are not . I guess there is at least a 100% mark up but even that doesn't explain why they are close to $600.00 for basically a 6"~7" diameter chunk of steel
My bugeye came with a cobb pulley when i bought it at 140k. Previous owner put it on at 70k. I transferred it to my new engine at 186k (ringland failure) and now has 233k. 0 issues
Agree to disagree. I didn’t see any hp increase with the aluminum pulley. Rather, I saw better throttle response on the bottom end. Kinda the same thing you experience with a throttle body spacer and/or intake spacer. But for different reasons.
Fluidampr is the optimal solution no matter your power level. Go to their website and see the data.Properly collected data does not lie. Lightweight pulleys increase the opportunity for secondary vibrations to bomb 💣 destroy your engine. That is dynamics and materials properties facts not an opinion. Given most modifiers go for substantially more power than OEM a crankshaft damper that is designed to work effectively over an even larger power band and sustained higher revs is a no brainer to my way of thinking.
this video is some weird science explaining what isn't going on accurately... crankshafts are built for torsional twist, its what spins the damn air pump. it's the reciprocal ups and downs (or side to side, for you head gasket eaters) in relation to the spinning that has imbalances to dampen out. Imbalances that stem from anything; one cylinder getting a little less air due to a casting defect, an injector that has one clogged pore, a stubborn chunk of carbon on one piston, coolant design etc. Without protection, the harmonic vibration is free to roam, perhaps resonate elsewhere and worse; amplify. The crankshaft wants to wiggle as it spins and a damper serves to absorb those vibrations as they happen without letting them pass the rotating assembly. Going from a stock damper to ati/fluid with harsh engine mounts is a good demonstration of this. Stock rubber bound pulleys dont typically fail by falling off, they slip and slide and the timing marks will lose their place, if you have a timing wheel that is attached to the outer sleeve, you will lose power due to the crank sensor being a dummy switch. if you ignorantly retime your engine to slipped marks, it may be excessively mechanically retarded or advanced depending on how far it's slipped and wont matter for long anyways. fluidampr and ati are of different design but have a more broad range of imbalance-caused harmonics they can dampen better than oe through focused design. OEMs made something simple that works and can be installed in millions of cars on the cheap. Aftermarkets in pursuit of horsepower alongside longevity made something that worked better at an individual unit cost. Unless they're balanced specifically to the engine, lightweight pulleys seem like marginal gains and bling factor for something that has a complete lack of provisions for an integral part of how your engine doesn't tear itself apart as it spins 100+ times per second.
I know in rotary balancing, the front pulley to the flywheel are balanced rotationally to push high RPMs. And lightweight pulleys and flywheels will destroy bearings in a rotary if they aren't at least close in weight on each end. Rotational balance of the pulley and flywheel itself also tends to be overlooked, which becomes more important with high RPM applications. I'm not sure how much of that really needs to be worried about in the average EJ build, but it's definitely something to at least consider when throwing parts together, especially with the cheaper cast lightweight crank pulley and flywheel offerings.
Not so much luckily on EJs, the crankshaft is so short that vibrations are already pretty low. ROTARY engines though sound like a good time when it comes to dampers and balancing 😅
you need to remember that machining evolution effect on primary harmonics is one thing but secondary harmonics are another. secondary harmonics are mitigated by design and not by machining. It's balance shafts, rod to stroke ratio. The rubber filled pulley is good for its intended purpose, not introducing resonant stress into the auxiliaries or crankshaft and avoiding extra torsional twist caused by the auxiliaries. By default the front pulley is mostly a counterweight for the flywheel. You should go with the rabbit hole anyway because where fluidampr is a good investment and good for your engine OEM is in most cases adequate for any abuse you're giving it as long it's a good one and not broken due to it being mostly dependent of engine design
so altering the engine design (valvetrain, redline) is a good reason to change the damper due to how resonance acts (easiest way to think of it is octaves) and slapping forged internals and a big turbo isn't
From my research personally 5-10hp is wayy too optimistic. More like 1-5. Or maybe 1-10hp if you go further and get an underdrive pulley. Thats for Mitsubishi 6g72 engines anyways
I did a fuji racing AC delete pulley (1.8 lbs) and a act street light flywheel and I felt like the engine revs whicked fast. (Na mind you 253) but I have heard you can make the vct go wonky if you Rev too fast. I also got the Perrin engine mounts and the group N trans mount and the chassis does vibrate. I do keep the idle rpm up to 950 though so its not unbearable. However got me thinking on longevity. And like oil pump cavitation.. Wonder if I can gear down the unit..
@smeedia awesome video! what is your opinion on replacing the oem crank pulley with the fluid damper, for the sole purposes to increase reliability on an otherwise stock vehicles?
![What You SHOULD Know About Harmonic Damper Pulleys | Harmonic Balancers 101 [TECH TALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/J1BGsgIZ_Ek/mqdefault.jpg)
I installed a Fluidampr on my EJ205 as a reliability mod and I love it. It might be a stretch but I feel like I'm burning less oil after. I think MotoIQ's article comparing all three of these on a relatively stock BRZ speaks volumes; despite the extra weight the Fluidampr made more horsepower on the dyno and showed a much smoother power curve.
Less oil consumption from a different crank pulley sounds like fantasy. I have the same one but that isn't what it does
@@TrillMurray it's probably just a placebo. The engine is noticeably smoother after.
It could, but only if the pully is used as a sealing surface for the crankshaft seal and the original one is fucked
@@martienthestar lol, true, but not in my case. It was a leaky valve cover on the passenger side. AOS is next for more oil retention.
@@martienthestar the front main seal is behind the pulley on these and just contacts the crank and case halves.
I swear by fluid dampener on EVERY motor I've ever build!
reason being the balancer/pully affects the harmonics of the crank and thus affects the valve train.
this is why belts are preferred as they help dampen these harmonics.
This harmonics can cause tuning disruptions, valve bouncing, and so many other weird phenomenon leading to destruction.
This was an awesome very well informative video with a great explanation! 10/10 said it like you read the same books or followed the same builders!
although super funny I build LSx motors blindfolded, and Honda motors time to time, and had built some crazy rotaries too *in fact a lot of the TH-cam junk is just that*! worked for Mazda motorsports specifically in R&D for their experimental scale GPT car they had been developing for a new car in series back in 2016. That's a weird story. but they swore by harmonic control and dampening.
But seemingly all engines have this same combustion harmonics and these harmonics VSTLY effect the engine life.
Koenigsegg free valve tech and some new2 machining styles have made some insane motors with near zero harmonics and ABSURE power for their size because of it.
Great topic to discuss. I feel like for the small hp gain probably safer to use stock and if I do a big build I'll go with the fluid damper. Thanks for the edumacation lol.
This is the way 🔥🤝
There's also ATI dampers. They can also be rebuilt, which is kinda nice.
a good dampener is worth power. zero point for anyone to just run a simple pulley.
@@leftyo9589 The point is to have a reliable daily driver and not a shitbox sti for 10 hp you won't notice anyway lol. Then blame subaru when there is engine failure to your car.
@@newguynasti2008 well, subaru motors are not as mod-friendly as K20/K24, LS, 2JZ, etc. that's why it has a reputation as being crappy.
Hey Tanner, I really like these informational videos you've put out, they really have broadened my knowledge of subarus specifically and, also, cars as a whole. Thanks a ton dude!
Glad that I can be of some help 🥳
I have a fluidampr on my MK7 GTI. It has not only smoothed out the idle, but has also allowed the car to pull all the way to redline before I was experiencing some timing retardation due to the false knock. This has completely cleaned all that up highly recommend.
Really glad you made a video about this, i knew Im going in the direction of a Fluidampr for my 17 wrx, but could never get a full answer as to why its better for everything. I'm only around the 370 wheel mark rn, but with a lightweight flywheel i feel a ton of bouncing. Definitely made the mistake of going with LW after only having the car for a week lol
Glad I could be of help 🥳 fluidamper is alqays the solid choice in my eyes
I read about Fluidamprs a lot in the NA community. It's a must-have, especially for NA EJs built to rev upwards of 10k RPMs.
High revving engines definitely benefits from the dampers
same with FA20? I'm debating between a light pulley and one of these.
Thanks for passing your wisdom to us from your lessons learned.
🙏🙏🙏
Ever since I was a little larva I was told to always upgrade the pulleys on your car. Im done with mods for my wrx for now. I'll for sure look into a pulley for my mustang. Thanks for the educational video Tanner!
Anytime my friend and always a solid upgrade 🥳
Ironic, as I modded my Mustang up the ying yang. My STI is stock as far as power mods. I've done a couple of reliability mods though.
Solid topic not a lot of people talk about. I went fluidampr when I went to a e60 tune due to my tuners advise.
Fluidamper is always a solid move 🔥
@@Smeedia fluid... solid move... I see what you did there xD
Fluidamper rocks !! Thanks for putting some basic science behind harmonic balancers. Noticed a wobble coming from my noisy 02 WRX. Decided on the Fluidamper and I can say that my 02 still Loves me !!🙂
Fluidamper was the right move! 🔥🥳
@@Smeedia Was looking for a replacement as the OEM rubber was beginning to disintegrate. Fluidamper was so expensive compared to rest and was curious how it would do: Wow cleaned up the wonk and vibrations. Keep up the great videos !!
@@i.norman WHich engine, year and mileage did the rubber start disintegrating at?
@@mikekillion4731 Hi - it's 2002 WRX Wagon - Automatic, with a EJ205AX3BB engine. I think I'm the 2nd owner and replaced the original crank pulley at around 250,000 KMs. Saw the crank a little wobbley when idling, inspected it and could see bits of hardened rubber missing. Replaced it and the engine idled incredibly smooth, though not sure how a new oem would compare. worth the price for fluidamper !!
let’s go, more questions answered everyday. my love for this channel keeps growing
I'll keep some more topic ones coming 🔥
Oh my goodness, I have been waiting for this exact video ever since you said that a fluid damper was something you installed when you cared for longevity! :D
Figured I'd make a video on it 🥳
My stock one did exactly what he said and split thank god it was in my driveway. Got a fluidampr never looked back significantly smoother. 13 WRX 330whp/350wtq
Nothing gets me more excited than Tanner talking about vibrations! Lol.
😆🤭
Great info Tanner, I just realized I shouldn't go light weight pulley on my boosted Nissan Spec V, and will def go with Fluidamper on the STI build. Thanks a million man!
Anytime my man! Jelly of that spec V 😍
@@Smeedia
Jelly of the Spec?....nah why so?
I’m new to your channel and this is some of the best Subaru content I’ve seen. Thanks so much for the great explanations and detail.
Anytime and appreciate the support Mike! 🙏
This reminds me, I grew up working on old vw's, and I thought it was so weird how most other engines had big chunky dampers and vw's ran these single row, really light weight pulley that was mainly just used for timing marks.
It's a bit different with pushrod engines than modern OHC engines. But when I saw the built ones, many had dampers added or went total lightweight. But rebuilding a vw engine is like a weekend lol.
I've been running the Fluiddampener for a bit now. Seems to work well for my application. And for less rotational mass I plan to install a carbon fiber driveshaft.
I love mine it’s awesome you’ll feel the difference immediately
Great information Tanner. My 14 Hatch is pretty stock, but longevity is my thing so a fluid dampner maybe overkill but help longevity. Thank you for the info, now get that Hatch on the scales, I want to see some power bro!!!! 🥃🥃🥃
Just waiting for my intercooler piping and we will be ready to rip 💔
I love when you upload, gives me something to watch when I get home from work 😅
Eyyyyy 🥳🥳🥳🥳
Yup, my factory damper delaminated. I was able to get another from a member of a local subaru group for $5. I have a Fluidamper for my new build, since the ati has a rebuild interval.
I've seen a handful of thrm de lam like that, makes a God awful noise when it happens 😆
I'll add a forth option to this that might be worth considering as a cheaper alternative. Some quality aftermarket dampened pulleys are lighter than stock. On my old hawkeye the OEM pulley as you mentioned separated the two rings. In desperation I ordered a Febi-Bilstein pulley from Amazon due to next day delivery. On arrival I instantly noticed the Febi one to be lighter.. Not only did the engine rev more freely, it also seemed to reduce the NVH a little. But that could have been due to the old worn rubber on the OEM pulley. I've considered just replacing my hatch pulley before the OEM one fails. Keep up the great work. Awesome content as always.
Thanks T. I'm uk 09 wrx, perrin pully stage 1 map 3 years now. Working out pretty good with full decat 💯🤘🤘🤘
🤝🙏🔥
Fluiddamp crank pulley and lightweight pulleys combo. I had full lightweight pulleys and intake on an frs. A bit louder engine idle and maybe 5 hp. Just get a fluid damp and reduce weight without reducing reliability.
Fluidampers are always a solid move 🔥
Any issues if i were to pair the fluidampr crank pulley with lighten alternator and waterpump pulleys on a BRZ?
@@lauchongyee9062 Sounds fine.
Are u running on the said combo for your ride?
@@lauchongyee9062 Nah I had the lightweight pulley kit from raceseng with the lightweight crank pulley. For 15k miles moved on to other cars. I would have liked to replace the crank with a fluid damp because it will only help with reliability. It won’t hurt. Also lots of people have a good argument not to change pulleys on an FRS because money could be better used for exhaust, tune, brakes, tires etc and I agree.
I paid $366 for my Fluidampr pulley almost 3 years ago. I haven't installed it yet because I'm probably going to save it for my V9 EJ207 that's on standby in case my EJ205 pops. From what I read while in the rabbit hole, the lightweight pulleys are worse in the long run if you are combining them with lighter flywheels. You will start to notice that the daily driveability will suffer, meaning your revs will be all over the place. OTOH, if you track the car, then you'd be better off because you're not trying to maintain a set speed limit. The EJ's crankshaft is also balanced with the damper installed, and by installing a lighter pulley, you will increase oscillations. That is not a good thing.
IMHO, I feel that a lot of newer Subaru owners comb over the aftermarket sites and look for something that claims more power but doesn't break the bank. Hence, the slick marketing for the lightweight pulleys. Just my .02 cents. Anybody is welcome to do as they please. Just do your research.
100%, I left out lightweight flywheels from this intentionally. Personally, I stick with OE. When possible, I will keep the mass on the crank to help with inertia when turning over.
Funny enough I came across an email from SOA stating the oe pulley is nothing more than a pulley as well. But like I stated I always suggest the fluidampers 🤝
I believe I saw a post on the forums(not sure which) where someone shared the same reply from SOA. A pulley that has an elastomeric ring surrounding it and they(SOA) call it a pulley just sounds odd.
I know that the OE pulleys will literally come apart, which is why I'm thankful for an aftermarket solution. Maybe I'll buy a second Fluidampr and finally get around to installing one on my EJ205. I also have to do the timing belt... Oh and let's not forget about the OE cam pulleys that crack💸💸💸
Great video!! That’s good knowledge to share!! Also just noticed you hit 100k plus subscribers, Congratulations 🎉
Thank you Layne 🥳
Perrin LWCP here on my 2011 WRX . The only “issue” I had was engine stumble at idle , or when the revs were dropping down to idle …..
you can eliminate the stumble by increasing engine idle RPM range.
I grabbed my Accessport and increased idle with A/C off by 100 RPM
With A/C on, I increased idle by 125 rpm
Engine stumble has been eliminated for 10 years now with no issues at all. Car revs like a champ.
I’ve been finding myself coming back to your page more and more when it comes to info on parts. Thank you for doing what you do man. Just grabbed myself a fluid dampner
Im glad my sbc has both a pulley and damper. Ill get the light pulley and the fluid damper! Win win
Great video explaining the difference between all 3 pulleys!
I’d highly recommend fluidampr as well. My blobeye drives a lot smoother and it’s a good reliability mod
I can’t wait for some more parts talk and what are the benefits!
Got you 🥳
they're called harmonic balancers for a reason, and i think that name pretty much sums up everything you just said.
🤝
This is something I would have never thought of.
I don't even own a car. Damn, I haven't even finished getting my license and I'm watching this video super fascinated.. Great content!
You did say "frequencies" very frequently in this video. Thanks for the to-the-point valuable information!
Awesome visuals! I’m going to have to do some researching for my stock power track car.
Tired to get some in there that were applicable 🔥
Dampner. For a flat motor or opposed anyhow. The harmonic resonance in them is brutal.
As per what a dampner is, most engines do have a "dampner" and it would almost always take a cross section to see how much rubber or composite is used to soak up vibration and resonance. Lightened pullys (as a a dyno technician) I have noted that in about 30% of circumstances INCREASE the amount of resonance past having none, due to essentially adding a tuning fork to the end.
You should do more educational shorts like this and call it "A quickie with Tanner"
Lmao going to start this series now 😅🔥
If you want to rev up faster, get a button clutch and super lightweight flywheel. The fluid damper is indeed heavier than stock, but it's the same outer diameter as stock, which means the mass is added on a shorter radius, which is easier to accelerate anyway. A smaller diameter clutch and flywheel has 4-times the effect that a somewhat heavier damper has.
My oem pulley ripped from the middle rubber part n it ripped my belt too so I ended just going for a fluid damper 😮💨🔥🔥n never failed again 🦾🦾
Fluidamper was the move! When those things explode its terrifying 😅😅😅
Great video man! Wish I had it years ago when I started my build 😅 I started with a lightweight and then switched to a fluidampr when doing turbo swap, bigger injectors, etc.
Nice vidya. I thankfully had an expert convince me to get an OEM instead of a lightweight pulley for a 400whp bb500 build and I’m very happy with it. Maybe if I go rotated I’ll do the fluid damper
For FA WRX's, the issue to look out for is the rods which are connected to ... the hip bone (j/k); crank shaft. My assumption is that this is that rod failure typically happens from "bigger booms" after say 350 to 375 torque. Would a fluid damper help? Hopefully I asked the question right. Sorry if I didn't in advanced.
BTW, I've learned so much from your channel man. Sooooo much. Thanks big time.
Unfortunately it would not help with that, higher cylinder pressures will make a rod bend before the vibrations ever would 🙏
@Smeedia I see. Thanks for the info. Looks like beefier rods are the only solution for my modest power goals.
Thanks for explaining all of this. My crank pulley seized on my 05 STI. It's moderately modified. I was going to order the perrin buy the cons aren't worth taking a chance. But God damn that damper is expensive! Guess I'm just getting OEM. Thanks again. ❤
The correct pulley makes a big difference. I have a cranky old man (machine wizard) building a Chevy 327 for me, getting fully balanced and all. He still recommended the 10in 350 HB over the 327 6in stocker. Bigger, heavier one worth 15hp in the mid range since it smooths out everything a lot. The actual harmonics from the combustion pulses causes hp loss cause it starts to resonate and shake the engine apart
Sounds like bro science let’s see the dyno charts
@@andreahighsides7756 We are building a small journal 327, 63 to be exact. The factory pulley was a 6in. Factory switched to 10in for all SBC sizes in 67. Now while I don't have the Dyno charts, I am sure GM has them burried somewhere
Got one for my RB in my r32. A must have
When I bought my wrx it came with a gfb lightweight pulley kit. I really want a different pulley tbh. But I don’t wanna spend $450 on the fluidampr and I don’t want to spend $180 on an oem pulley. I need to find a used oem pulley lol. Great video tanner
very articulate! goodstuff mang ur helping us out alot, appreciate u!!
As someone who's looking to boost their car, fluid dampeners sound pretty promising. Plus I see them on a lot of built/crate engines
5:16 To add a bit to this discussion, I'd like to relay to you guys that, an engineer once told me that the only two piston driven engine rotational assemblies that achieve a "natural balance" at any point of their cycle is the flat four and the V12. This bit of info led me to form the opinion of, this inherent stability being the reason that the Subaru h4 can get away with just a little bit more tortional vibration than other engine designs.
Lightweight pulley is fine for an EJ, provided you never ever want to idle the engine!
I've had a lightweight cank pulley on my -89 Supra for 6-7 years, runs 10k-15k kilometers a year, still stock, only exhaust, intake and added boost
it helps me a lot considering i have a 07 wrx tr which i will keep as a daily but will being a transmission swap from 5 spd to a sti 6
thank you humbly and keep them right. subie life
I put lightweight pulleys on my 92 5.0 Mustang and put well over 100,000 hard miles on it and never had a problem.
Perrin lightweight crank pulley still goin strong on my wrx with 67k miles 🙏 I think the Perrin LCP does the opposite of NVH reduction, lol. Still a bit of a sketchy mod
Thanks for saying this. Between you and this video I think I'll go with the Fluidampr. Would love smoother operation and I can make up for the extra weight with the accessory pulley upgrades.
@@mikekillion4731 100%
I have had my Perrin LCP since 2012 with ZERO issues on my 06' Hawkeye STi pushing just north of 500 crank hp.
8:40 the AXIS of rotation. an axial flow turbojet / fan flows along the axis. a wheel rotates around its axis or axle.
Great topic thank you
Got you 🤝
5-10hp? That's a lot more than I thought it would give.
I'd assume it would affect how fast an engine revs because of the inertia but I didn't think it would actually affect power.
Easily one of the best explanations on this particular subject. I have a nearly full bolt on 2018 WRX and have had the Perrin Lightweight Pulley on it since I’ve owned the car (about 2 years). I dyno at 337hp / 348 ft lbs on 93 oct with a pro tune (shout out to Fastech Motorsports in Louisville, TN) Zero issues thus far. But a lot of people cling to the harmonic balancer idea like it’s the end of the world to have one. If I decide to go for more power I’ll definitely change over to a Fluid Damper.
Great information!! Thanks
Anytime buddy 🤝
Finally installed by Grimspeed lightweight pulley. (-3.5lbs from stock) and definitely feel the difference when rev matching and generally revs faster. I felt like the added weight over the Perrin pulley would keep me from any Cels and hopefully not do any damage. The 1.2lb Perrin pulley just seems too light to me lol. Wish I could afford a fluid damper mind you, but alas, daily driver WRX not a crazy build.
Nothing crazy for power I wouldent stress it too much 🤝🙏
Resonance* It's the word you were looking for. Frequency is just the range of the resonance when talking harmful vibration.
Thank you 🤝 get brain farts when filming sometimes 😆
Hey man. Before I forget while watching the video. Any way you could make one of your great install videos on turbo inlets? I trust your stuff so it would be greatly appreciated if you get the chance! But if it isn't happening I understand! If there is a good video somewhere you can recommend that would be great. Just seems like there's not really anything great out there that I could find! Thanks again man! Now onto watching your video and leaving a like of course!
If the opportunity comes up I can definitely make that one 🙏🙏🙏
Just did a fluid dampr on my wrx coming a lightweight crank pully legit best 400$ I have ever spent worth every dollar
Feel any diffrenece in the car? 👀
Huge difference upgraded mounts the sound was much better much smoother revs and less vibration through the steering wheel
On a DI engine, the LW pulleys do beat the accessories to death due to crank chatter, but on non-DI, a lightweight one also with smaller diameter is good for maximum HP as in racing use.
i used a grimmspeed pulley for 5 years and maybe 20,000 miles on it. not bad. going back to oem now to see how my 4.44 gear ratio will be with ej255, vf48
don't know if you'll see this comment but you were on my recommended and the video was great, was kinda disappointed when I went to your page and seen just subie videos, but this informational video was really easy to understand and actually kept my attention, would defo subscribe if you started doing informational videos alongside the regular subie videos
timely as always, dood! So, lets say stage 3 is the upper limit of what the engine will see (Upgraded intercooler, ID1300s, 16G or similar, full 3" exhaust...etc.). What would your recommendation be here? assume 325-375whp ish...
I’ve heard good things about GetADom light enough crank pulley. But I’m surprised there’s not a lot of information about the light weight pulleys.
For the toyota 2ur-gse they have an ATI dampened lightweight pully
Curious, doing a Google now 👀
@@Smeedia yeah. Thinking about copping one up
thank you tanner!!!
Got you my man 💪
2009 subaru legacy had the outer ring of the pulley come off and eat through my plastic timing belt cover and well now I own a 2013 Outback (timing chain)
And flywheels are always solid mass, if you made a video about lightened flywheels I'll find it, if not? Let's make one!
Very few motors were externally balanced. The Chevy 400 was, all other small block chevys were internally balanced. The harmonic balancer has nothing to do with balancing a engine. It is there to minimize torsional vibrations . The longer your crankshaft the more you need one.The more power you make the more you need one. Internally balancing an engine is nothing new.
I've renewed my damper simply after 15 years with a big service.
I have a 440whp sti with rotated setup. 15psi. I don't explode the car, just a street car
the problem with LW vs FLDDPR is that Fluidampr might not support each engine whereas you can probably find a lightweight pulley for even the most obscure engine...
I grabbed a fluid damper for my eg33. Did a bunch of research as well. I paid about 600 canadian for mine and had to wait 6 months for it to be made. But was worth it.
For an EG33 I wouldn't really worry about it, the boxer 6 is one of the best naturally balanced designs ever and they have a relatively short crankshaft torsional twist isn't usually an issue. I have researched using fluidamper but couldn't find enough reason to bother. I am not an expert by any means and anything you do to your build is good for you, I know you sure didn't make things worse.
I will also add the crank and stock rods are both forged in the EG33 even if the rods are a bit too thin so having those forged also helps keep things going fine without the vibration damping. I ran that exact Perrin LWCP on my SVX for 8 or more years but I was also running the stock ECU with Chip for fuel and timing mods that got me about 200 AWHP with stock injectors and some supporting mods, I also changed the tune and put in Nissan MAF and 550 Sti injectors without any issue but only ran that for a couple years. never did get a chance to re-dyno it. i was also running a sti 6 speed.
@@black69camaro2344 agreed. They are well balanced. But the stock one I had was starting to separate. I also found info that when you are loading the crank with higher torque (more than stock obviously which is the end goal) the fluid damper helps with the accessory drive stuff not getting the shock transferred through. Unless I misinterpreted that part.
@@jaredoliver3296 No I think you have it right, I don't know that the fluidampner is needed unless your going with 600 plus power and the light pulley is probably going to be fine for a lot less money. but the fluidampner isn't a bad idea at all.
@@black69camaro2344 agreed. I plan on supercharging or adding a turbo to my svx in the future so figured I would just buy it now. Maybe looking for the 400 wheel mark but will have to go standalone at that time
What gets me, why are fluid dampers so expensive?
I know the silicon fluid is expensive but the materials are not .
I guess there is at least a 100% mark up but even that doesn't explain why they are close to $600.00 for basically a 6"~7" diameter chunk of steel
My bugeye came with a cobb pulley when i bought it at 140k. Previous owner put it on at 70k. I transferred it to my new engine at 186k (ringland failure) and now has 233k. 0 issues
Fluidampr🔥 100% yai
💪💪💪
I like to use a 12 in pizza with extra meat as my crank pully
Extra sausage and pepperoni
I had a lightweight pulley on my 210k mile Altima and it was fine.
Agree to disagree.
I didn’t see any hp increase with the aluminum pulley. Rather, I saw better throttle response on the bottom end.
Kinda the same thing you experience with a throttle body spacer and/or intake spacer. But for different reasons.
is the only realistic down side to the fluidampr the price??? seems like its only upsides..
Fluidampr is the optimal solution no matter your power level. Go to their website and see the data.Properly
collected data does not lie. Lightweight pulleys increase the opportunity for secondary vibrations to bomb 💣 destroy your engine. That is dynamics and materials properties facts not an opinion. Given most modifiers go for substantially more power than OEM a crankshaft damper that is designed to work effectively over an even larger power band and sustained higher revs is a no brainer to my way of thinking.
JDM means a car produced for the Japanese market, not a Japanese car sold in America
Good topic.
this video is some weird science explaining what isn't going on accurately...
crankshafts are built for torsional twist, its what spins the damn air pump. it's the reciprocal ups and downs (or side to side, for you head gasket eaters) in relation to the spinning that has imbalances to dampen out. Imbalances that stem from anything; one cylinder getting a little less air due to a casting defect, an injector that has one clogged pore, a stubborn chunk of carbon on one piston, coolant design etc.
Without protection, the harmonic vibration is free to roam, perhaps resonate elsewhere and worse; amplify. The crankshaft wants to wiggle as it spins and a damper serves to absorb those vibrations as they happen without letting them pass the rotating assembly. Going from a stock damper to ati/fluid with harsh engine mounts is a good demonstration of this.
Stock rubber bound pulleys dont typically fail by falling off, they slip and slide and the timing marks will lose their place, if you have a timing wheel that is attached to the outer sleeve, you will lose power due to the crank sensor being a dummy switch. if you ignorantly retime your engine to slipped marks, it may be excessively mechanically retarded or advanced depending on how far it's slipped and wont matter for long anyways.
fluidampr and ati are of different design but have a more broad range of imbalance-caused harmonics they can dampen better than oe through focused design. OEMs made something simple that works and can be installed in millions of cars on the cheap. Aftermarkets in pursuit of horsepower alongside longevity made something that worked better at an individual unit cost. Unless they're balanced specifically to the engine, lightweight pulleys seem like marginal gains and bling factor for something that has a complete lack of provisions for an integral part of how your engine doesn't tear itself apart as it spins 100+ times per second.
I know in rotary balancing, the front pulley to the flywheel are balanced rotationally to push high RPMs. And lightweight pulleys and flywheels will destroy bearings in a rotary if they aren't at least close in weight on each end. Rotational balance of the pulley and flywheel itself also tends to be overlooked, which becomes more important with high RPM applications.
I'm not sure how much of that really needs to be worried about in the average EJ build, but it's definitely something to at least consider when throwing parts together, especially with the cheaper cast lightweight crank pulley and flywheel offerings.
Not so much luckily on EJs, the crankshaft is so short that vibrations are already pretty low. ROTARY engines though sound like a good time when it comes to dampers and balancing 😅
you need to remember that machining evolution effect on primary harmonics is one thing but secondary harmonics are another.
secondary harmonics are mitigated by design and not by machining. It's balance shafts, rod to stroke ratio. The rubber filled pulley is good for its intended purpose, not introducing resonant stress into the auxiliaries or crankshaft and avoiding extra torsional twist caused by the auxiliaries. By default the front pulley is mostly a counterweight for the flywheel.
You should go with the rabbit hole anyway because where fluidampr is a good investment and good for your engine OEM is in most cases adequate for any abuse you're giving it as long it's a good one and not broken due to it being mostly dependent of engine design
so altering the engine design (valvetrain, redline) is a good reason to change the damper due to how resonance acts (easiest way to think of it is octaves) and slapping forged internals and a big turbo isn't
Best videos Tanner, awesome knowledge and info. Am going to install the fluidampr, the crank bolt is that 130Nm, 180Nm or 47Nm + 60degrees? 🤔
explosion would mean detonation. engines rely on a flame front NOT explosion.
From my research personally 5-10hp is wayy too optimistic. More like 1-5. Or maybe 1-10hp if you go further and get an underdrive pulley. Thats for Mitsubishi 6g72 engines anyways
You say not a lot of hp for a build. If you're building an All Motor swapped civic, this is beneficial to learn.👍🏾
If you build civics you would already know your oil pump will explode with anything but a damper on your pulley.
I did a fuji racing AC delete pulley (1.8 lbs) and a act street light flywheel and I felt like the engine revs whicked fast. (Na mind you 253) but I have heard you can make the vct go wonky if you Rev too fast. I also got the Perrin engine mounts and the group N trans mount and the chassis does vibrate. I do keep the idle rpm up to 950 though so its not unbearable. However got me thinking on longevity. And like oil pump cavitation.. Wonder if I can gear down the unit..
@smeedia awesome video! what is your opinion on replacing the oem crank pulley with the fluid damper, for the sole purposes to increase reliability on an otherwise stock vehicles?