Affirmative Action vs Caste-based Reservations
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ส.ค. 2023
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The guy is not familiar with casteism. .. Its next to impossible to make them understood and feel about how casteism is a additional unavoidable curse for oppressed castes,
I think it's the other way around these people know casteism and they themselves are casteist it's just they can't wrap their head around the fact that somebody who is in a lower caste then them can go to a better position then them in the society.
@@akashpatre8643 No, such people don't exist in large numbers amongst the YOUTH as compared to the number of people who actually have no idea of the casteism.
@@curiosity_fan Do u hv the data to backup the argument?
The American society is more vocal and aware about the racism than Indian society is about casteism. Excluding white supremacist who are in denial, in general American society comparatively are quite aware and accept racism as social reality. Whereas in India casteism though practiced openly or secretively is always underplayed by every mainstream communication. Till the time the privileged class in India doesn't own upto the social injustice happening via casteism the chances of ending casteism seem slim. Because the most political, administrative and mass communication fields are filled privileged caste who invariably try to underplay the extent of problem arising out of casteism. Till the time they don't accept this social reality caste free society will take much more time to come to reality.
Esliye to America or European countries bharat se bahut age hai lekin yeha ka brahmin aisa nahi hone dega kyoki Jaati se uska rojgar seedha Juda hua hai😁
Exactly casteism is so whitewashed in this country by Brahmanvadis
I understand that when he was studying and applying there might not have been categories and reservations for orphaned kids or other children. But currently there are reservations for orphaned children, people with disabilities (physical and psychological), ex servicemen, victims of riots and many more. Also I am so called financially privileged person because my parents were officials in government institutions but that did not stop people from reminding me of my caste and place. Me, my sisters and my parents still face castism and our economic privilege did not help us in attaining a status or respect in society. It was due to reservations that we got to study in respectable institutions and make a place for ourselves in this society.
if you dont mind can you give instances or ways your family faced (or still faces) casteism and is discriminated. i just want to keep an account of a financially sound person's experience with casteism in my memory.
Vimoh you nailed it Bro 🙏🙏🙏🙏 They way you put the Examples and explain the scenario with Justification is absolutely Stunning. I want to tel that guy, even a Rich or Previlaged person from SC ST gets discriminated in the Society. So his Arguments is totally mocked...
Caller guy is a Closeted casteist
Hi Vimoh! Sorry I have been a bit busy with my thesis lately and have not been able to attend the live sessions.
Coming to this conversation, lately, what I have been observing is that UC people have been trying to sound "intellectual" to discard reservations. Nearly all the right wing propaganda channels have been trying to juxtapose caste based reservations in India against affirmative action by other countries such as US and Canada, calling the latter model as the better version and an alternative to what Babasaheb proposed. Fundamentally, I have serious problem with this proposition.
First, the whole idea of pitching affirmative action against caste based reservations is technically flawed. Caste based reservations are a form of affirmative action, tailored for Indian social conditions. There is no versus. Caste based reservations are a subset of affirmative actions. Other countries have different methods to approach their representation problems, and we have our own homegrown approach which intends to address our social problem. A simple reading about what affirmative action means would clear this out.
Secondly, caste is a unique phenomenon which originated in Indian subcontinent. Many scholars have previously tried to equate caste and race, but various Dalit Networks have clearly discarded this categorisation. For example, you can see the statement of International Dalit Solidarity Network which opposes this idea of equating caste discrimination to racial discrimination. Why it is important to understand is because most of the models that are cited by people as an alternative to caste based reservations, address racial inequality problem and not the caste problem. So prima facie it is not possible to simply replicate a model trying to solve racial discriminatio to solve the caste problem. I call it oversimplification of issues pertaining to caste discrimination.
Thirdly, the whole idea of subjective approach on case to case basis is simply gonna create more problems than it solves as the people who determine the eligibility of a particular case to be brought under the ambit of affirmative action are themselves UC people having no idea about the lived experiences of the DBA people. Then how can the power of determination can rest in their hands? That's why Ambedkar made sure that the power to determine disadvantage doesn't remain in the hands of people and the best way out was to ensure the rule of law to establish disadvantage. That's why rather than determining disadvantage on case to case basis, he created an objective criteria by grouping together various marginalized groups into SC and ST categories, to ensure that justice and opportunity doesn't elude DBA people. People like the caller are trying to undo this by claiming that they have an alternative model to caste based reservations.
The caller has literally no idea about what he is proposing because he has no idea about the lived experiences of the DBA people. As a law student he should read more before getting into such conversations.
Splendid explanation!!!!
may your youtube channel grow more(hehe)
The caller did not have good examples but still people are misconstruing the argument:
1. Privilege within the DBA community is a thing. For example, there are conversations in the community about creamy layer and disconnect of the urban Dalit with the rural Dalit. Affirmative action in the US is distinct from the reservation system because it introduces the second order question of relative privilege.
2. Caste is seen across the feudal world and even remnants of it within the developed north, Japanese Burakumin still face untouchability and institutional discrimination. As for mixing race and caste, the wide acceptance of Suraj Yengde and the existence of AfroDalit studies tells us otherwise.
3. There has been a shift in the objective of reservation due to Mandal politics. I define the objectives into a trillema, historical justice vs proportional representation vs tool to uplift. Babasaheb wanted 1 and 3. Mandal politics made it 2 and 3 and modern DBA discourse has factions batting for the three permutations.
4. Personally I support Babasaheb's model, proportional representation will suffer. He wanted one generation to tracend this disadvantage and proposed a time limit. With proportional representation, we are headed for the Lebanon style or Inter Junta politics of Myanmar where communities and their support base are mixed and matched to obtain political power/narrative dominance. This is why you get OBCs hating on SCs, urban STs negating the experiences of rural SCs and competition between religious groups of SCs(reservation for Muslim/Christian SCs).
5. The arguments denying the concept of merit in DBA discourse is a natural progression of making proportional representation a plank. Some of it is ridiculous like a 0% cutoff(while keeping 50-95% for other caste categories) for professions that impact others like professors. DBA discourse negates any discussion on it even when it is in good faith and made by members of the DBA community. A person I know from the community protested the lack of quality of a teacher and pointed to the lack of basic understanding of maths among the students(the school had 100% tribal students), the community proceeded to boycott him and accused him of being a closeted Manuwaadi.
@@rutvikrsthank you for saving my time,which would have been used to debunk op fluent grandiloque, you wrote it in a more palpable form. 👍👍
@@rutvikrsthe margin exists for OBC people that the rich creamy layer of OBC cannot claim reservation, similar borders for SC ST creamy people would benefit a larger good.
My sister is in a medical college and one batch has 100 students and almost 70 girls but only ragging is done to her 1 in 70 in all as she is from lower caste she’s been locked in rooms and even much more even principal says leave the room but not doing anything about that and its a private college everyone paid same amount none of them have more than 300 marks in neet here no one gets any benefits of reservations as it is private if reservations was the problem this things in private college would not have been done
But PROBLEM IS CASTE…
In his hypothetical scenario why not the upper caste child whose arm is cut off should be given the seat of another rich upper caste child. Explain.
Even obama daughter will get advantage from the affirmative action but this guy wants the SC / ST students from a rich family should not get benefits from reservation. He should understand first that they are getting reservations because of their cast back ground and not by their economical status. Even rich SC/ST students can face cast discrimination. There are several instances in India were a top level govt employee was not allowed to ride on horses during his marriage. Discriminations are not only in India but also in US top IT companies. States like Washington and California have made laws against caste discrimination. Hope he studies these laws and get good marks. Lastly even upper caste Hindus get benefits of affirmative actions because of their their skin colour in US 😅
They made those caste laws out of thin air
They'll still can't understand this
You are so good to tell the right thing in right way. I have been able to understand so much fun you. Thanks vimoh
I think this man don't have complete knowledge about Indian reservation system, ie. OBC already divided into creamy layer and non creamy layer and also PH and EWS is already there
This, this is the comment I was looking fo.thanks for making it.
The caller does not take into account of the social and cultural capital that marginalized castes suffer, even if their parents are educated.
Fair point. But how is then caste-based reservation going to be helpful in solving casteism if economic prosperity isn't positively correlated with social capital?
Well, the same could be said about race in the US. Still, the US has a more flexible affirmative action system than India!
@@adityajoshi6422More representation in society. How hard is it to understand for ignorants?
@@mother.95 That's quite vague. Care to elaborate more? Btw this othering and name calling doesn't help your cause, you know. If you explain your position more clearly to those who are interested to know more about it, maybe you'll get more supporters.
@@adityajoshi6422 You are _choosing_ to be ignorant. There are thousands studies, articles, books, academicians to learn from and yet you have the audacity here?
Show him the news of casteism brutalities in India there are several casteist terrorism happens in India daily
Many states have at least 1% reservation for orphans now and there has been reservation for disabled in all the universities for a long time now. When you fill up an application for a college or a government competitive exams there is a place where you can declare yourself a disabled. If a uppercaste brahmin who might be economically disadvantaged is still have several aid from the government such as if you have BPL card or income certificate you get a concession in fee etc,
Apart from that most previously ruled by BJP states also brought reservation for general merit to dillute its effectiveness further. Some people might be miscatogorised as backward as the reservation is based on old data but if the central government release new data and reforms reservation based on new data the system can be fixed and it can help the people who is in need the most. Just because one do not have the political will to reform, it cannot become an excuse to dismantle the whole reservation system. Any sane person should only have one complain towards reservation system that it needs reform and it can be more effective in helping the needy.
I think he has a crush on Obama's daughter.
Me in the whole debate-Arre kehna kya chahte ho
I think you haven't come through recent news from karnataka where a famous Director and Actor Upendra made a statement about dalit community and a FIR's have been filed against him and he's no where found since morning and i would love to listen to your views about the incident.
Please can anybody tell me full form of DBA?
I don't understand why people don't care about doing some research before making any comments on any kind of reservation affirmative action.
Bro don't have any idea about india caste discrimination but he has not even close to that argument he hasn't recognised the core reason of casteism exist
More importantly, caste based reservation is more about representation of the country’s population demographics in public and private sector in appropriate ratio
There is an orphan quota in IIT. Being a law student this guy should atleast know this basic thing that one should study the topic before making assumptions or statements
20-30% Reservation to Fake caste certificate bale khate hai or enke khilaf Awaz uthayo to uper bhi yehi bethe rehte hai Jo Case ko dabaa dete hai,Abhi tak proper Representation apply hi nahi hua hai Bhai,According to me Representation pr jyada hona chahiye kyoki aap kisi bhi department main dekhe 50% se jyada So called Uppercaste hi milega☹
Reservations are not an economic upliftment program, reservations are there to ensure equitable representation for all sections of the society, affirmative action is good to have once it is ensured that all sections are well represented.
How can he just come up with an argument without doing some homework on Indian reservation system?!!!! He does not even have basic understanding about the difference between caste and category! ...And this guy is studying law in USA!
The issue with reservations is the ones who truly need them aren't getting it .
Its always the same argument from these people.
*PWD reservation for handicapped aur ews for gen economy* ....girl reservation for gender .....their is not only caste reservation in india 😂😂😂😂😂😂without knowing the fact this person living in america is arguing
pwd ko bhi reserversation hota hai bro
Every regular guy in India knows this but this guy studying law in us doesn't or maybe just act's like he doesn't know to justify his wierd logics lol
I mean, I get his point, but look, the policies that you can think of implementing in the US; you can't even fathom in India because of the huge size, if we start using affirmative action we open ourselves to an already big issue we have, i.e. corruption. In India, idealistic polices do not reach the people they intend to benefit! I'm pretty sure people with huge political influence will still manage to get some sort of advantage for themselves, in terms of reservation. All in all, not even diving in the moral construct of his argument there is a problem in implementing it. So, even if we wanted to, it wouldn't be at all practical to do something like Affirmative action or reservation in terms of income.
I am pretty sure that if there is a creamy layer in sc /st dalit quota. Them the Dalits themselves will ask for the distinction. As of now in Andra Pradesh there is emerging a distinction amongst Dalits called mahadalits. This is due to urban Dalits have progressed to avail eduction and job using reserved quota while as the rural Dalits still has not progressed to many not having a matriculation.
Call sir if were so "concern" about India then try to study Indian caste system and reservation regarding around it.. it's not your problem there are enough people to worry about it so please focus on your life rather than reservation.. it's about equal representation darling..
if caste based discrimination is not based on wealth how can reservation be based on wealth
I like the way he cut off the conversation....
The caller here thinks that the disadvantage like caste or the color in us should be treated EQUALLY with the disadvantage like savarnas who's arm is cut off or poor brahmin.
No it shouldn't.
In india brahmin kshatriya had 100% reservation for 1000 + year
SC+Money+GoodFamilyBackground should get less advantage than SC+PoorBackground, why it's a wrong argument? It's true that it's not feasible in policy level but that's different discussion.
Cause the Sc community will be illtreated and downtrodden by most of the times the upper community irrespective of whether the SC is rich or poor
You hear news of a groom beaten just because he was an SC and is celebrating his marriage in an affluent and sybaritic way
The other community irrespective of being rich or poor will beat him just because the sc community doesn't have the right to do so
Sorry, but there is emerging a distinction called maha Dalits in between urban Dalits and rural dalits.check it out. It might not intervene in education. But certainly the mahadalits are asking for better access to jobs. As in the rural reservation to job such as tahsildar be given to a dalit of that mandal and not an urban Dalits.
It is happening in my village.
Why are always misconstruing the argument Vimoh?
Make caste division of any kind anywhere illegal. Caste based reservations are still keeping the system alive in people's mind even more. Are we able to get rid of the caste discrimination by following the current method since 1950? If you constantly say 'upper caste', 'lower caste' and use caste system officially then the upper caste continues to think themselves as 'upper' caste. Instead focus on economically weaker sections of society.
Caste doesn't only exist in minds. It affects people's actual lives socially, culturally, and politically. Even people who don't talk about it get affected by it. Reservation is a political measure to undo its effects. Saying don't talk about it is a very tone deaf position.
🙌🏾
Bro provide v neck t-shirt
@vimoh I challenge you to debate with me live on your 2nd channel where you do live interactions
You said in one of your video in which you were mocking Keerthi History that we have been taught about indian history very well.
And i wanted to know your views on caste system which is there in Hinduism
aa jaana bhai on any Saturday at 8 pm. this channel only
@@vimohlive kaise ??
@@vimohlive mtlb i don't know how to join you
@@dixit4481 saturday ko open call-in live stream hota hai 8 baje. aa jaana. join link chat mein pinned hoga
I think in the beginning, before you had the chance to understand his argument, he started accusing you of misconstruing his argument. But by the end you were actually misconstruing his argument. Your hypothetical of Obama's daughter was not proving your point at all. Like how does Obama's daughter being underprivileged due to her skin colour counter his argument that her advantage due to her father's political connections might far trump any sort of disadvantage she will have. I think the best argument you made was the argument that affirmative action might not be feasible on large scale in India.
Agreed, that's what I wanted to shout when I first head their conversation.
The only flaw I see in the current system is that there is no further stratification under SCs or OBCs. Since there are plethora of castes and sub castes under these broad terms. And the representation of these caste/subcastes within the current reservation scheme doesn't match with their population share. In other words, when reservation system was started, the stronger castes among the oppressed castes have captured most of it. But may be on account of not being feasible to make such conditions, this issue is left out.
Gautam Buddha is the 9th incarnation of Vishnu and it was written in our ancient text no one can debunked it
It’s wrong. I am sure you are not an expert in scripture or Sanskrit. Kindly follow shankrachary of Govardhan math who clarifies that Gautama tha Buddha is not the 9th avatara. So either you are lying or wrong or shankracharya is lying and wrong. They have you tube channel called Govardhan math you tube channel. He answer the same question. ✌🏽
@@SunilSingh-eo4bl it's written in our ancient Text
@@audiencehaimai486 which ancient text different sources give different avatara list. Plus Buddha the Gautama is Nastik which specifically means he doesn’t believe in the supremacy of Vedas which completely opposite of sanatan dharma. Anways man as I said you don’t know Sanskrit and haven’t read scriptures. I have. But don’t believe me atleast go listen to Shankaracharya. And stop using the the term ancient text. Name the book atleast.
@@SunilSingh-eo4bl Harivamsa (1.41) Vishnu Purana (3.18) Bhagavata Purana (1.3.24, 2.7.37, 11.4.22)
SanaTunni propaganda