This one was rude, unhelpful, yes. But that Mexican readback fetishist/phraseology nazi a few years back was definitely ruder, even if there was no emergency involved.
Are you kidding me?! Asking an emergency aircraft for a PIREP and asking him to get the ATIS? Not giving him vectors when the pilot asked three times? Arguing with him? This gentleman needs a new career.
The airplane was obviously under control and the pilot said the emergency was weather related. ATC needs to know about that so as not to send any other traffic to the conditions bad enough to declare an emergency for. The controller got confused because 'IMC, light turbulence, and light rain' aren't really emergency grade weather conditions. I heard him get tons of vectors, and then call the airport in sight. Pilot needs remedial training if he can't fly in IMC and if he doesn't know what the responsibilities of a visual approach include.
@@iflyc77 IMC by itself is an emergency to a non-instrument-rated pilot, which many GA light-aircraft pilots are. VFR into IMC is a real killer. This pilot knew how to read his instruments well enough to follow vectors to a VFR airfield, and that's what he was asking for.
@@Kromaatikse I agree. I would hope that he is an instrument rated pilot though being that he was on an IFR flight plan. I also agree that he wanted vectors to VFR, even though he didn't say that at all. The controller pointed him at the airport, he reported it in sight, got cleared for the visual and got all pissy because there were still clouds around him. That is like using Google Maps to get to Chipolte, but then throwing your phone out the window because it doesnt give you the turn by turn into an open parking spot.
@@iflyc77 No. You deal with the emergency first, then worry about anything else. He said he had the beacon in sight "intermittently" and a vector was appropriate to maintain his base course. Also, he might not have been able to set up an IMC approach since he was in IMC. I have no idea why you made your comment or what skills you presume GA pilots to have.
It's as if the ATC decided "ah, he's just scared of some clouds, it's not a *real* emergency!". Meanwhile at the beginning of the call the plane was being forced into a spiral decent (according to a comment further up)
@@3dbeergoggles Didn't the pilot say that the problem was weather related and that the emergency was over. Seems like a reasonable point for ATC to ask for a bit more information on the weather problem so as to have other traffic avoid it. At least that's what seemed to be happening to me based on just listening to it once. That said both men could have handled it better.
@@kurttappe correct! Aviate, Navigate, communicate in that order! When you enter an uncommanded spiral you FLY the A/C without regard for vectors/heading. Once level flight is established, you Navigate... point it in the correct (or safest) direction. Then (and only then) you communicate!! Regardless a PIREP would always be superfluous communication for a pilot who has declared an emergency. I thought he did well, and was far more professional with ATC than I would've been!
I once had a controller tell me to proceed directly to an airport in the Chicago area. Doing so would have required a class B clearance. When I asked if I was cleared through the class B airspace I received a firm ‘negative’ as a response. I was a pretty new pilot at the time and I felt the guy was baiting me. Left a sour taste in my mouth.
@@rexiklexi169 Like TCAS. It tells one plane to climb and one to descends if they are on a course to collide. I just know of that cause of an NTSB investigation were pilots did the opposite and they collided cause they were listening to the controller.
@@Sevisstillalive Thankfully the regulations are clear on this matter. If you do not have a clearance into Class B, and you fly into it, you are in violation of that reg. Now, circumstances are important, so if for instance there was an emergency situation, as long as you can justify WHY you did something, you're fine. And remember, the pilot in command can deviate from any regulation required to meet the extent of the emergency.
@@philtll Pilot looks a little dumb after prompting a visual approach clearance and then asking for a vector and altitude. But man the controller is on a whole 'nother level with his attitude in this case.
@@annejean-philippeotton8073 I think you misunderstood this comment. Peter is saying that it should be a given that the controller will have a helpful attitude when a pilot declares an emergency and the pilot should only have to worry about flying the airplane... not flying the airplane and dealing with an unhelpful jackass controller.
10 years as a CFII/MEII. Never experienced something this bad. I hope the controller was fired. Sitting in an air conditioned office listening to someone in distress thousands of feet above safety, and this is what he offers for help. What a punk.
@@apastafarian5051 been a long time since Ive watched this video and your comment made me come watch it again. Got my blood boiling again. Just shameful what this guy did.
@@Hondaridr58 makes me think he never been 3 thousand feet in the fucking air Wondering if you gonna make it back down. ATC should be pilots as well. Lol sorry I brought you back
@@apastafarian5051 lol all good brotha. I agree, controllers should be at least private Pilots. It's one of those things where, you REALLY don't know what it's like until you've been in the situation. It seems like pilots become nothing more than numbers attached to voices for controllers sometimes. The same could be said for us pilots being in a controllers position. This guy though... Don't need to be in his position to realize how wrong he is.
Pilot is the main issue . ATC screwed up in the beginning as he didn't give vectors, but finally understood and gave pilot the vectors. ATC asked pilot whether he is doing visual or ils. Pilot says visual. Then pilot says AIRPORT IN SIGHT.. ATC cleared approach. Then pilot gets testy when ATC didn't "read his mind" that he still needed vectors... even after airport is it sight. What the pilot needs to do is declare what he needs clearly. all he need to do is "airport in sight, but i still need vectors, intermittent visual". People can't read minds....
Thomas, yes, never in my 34 years in ATC, have I heard a controller handle an emergency in such a manner. One ego-tripper, that should not be in a control position.
Retired center controller, and a PPL here. I am totally embarrassed by this, but certainly not surprised. Entitled punk is what I kept saying to myself as I heard him do his small-pe*is thing.
A growing issue is that fewer and fewer ATCs are also pilots. They don't necessarily have a good frame of reference regarding the problems pilots report.
ATC wanted a “belt measuring” contest with the pilot. The pilot declared an emergency, the ATC’s primary responsibility at this point is to give the pilot all the info he needs to land safely. Questioning the pilot as to WHY he needs the info is way out of bounds. Those questions can and should be asked AFTER the pilot has landed.
He’s asking because the pilot is giving him mixed signals. ATC offered ILS and pilot declined and requested VFR then confirmed airport in sight, then he requested vectors. Pilot is all over the place.
@@CrimsonFlameRTR Weather is also "all over the place". It changes dramatically, quickly (especially around the islands if you've ever spent any time there and watched the convective activity). The time for why's is later.
When declaring an IFE, The Fire Chief or Ground Safety officer becomes On the Ground/Scene commander if there is one. From experience, they would have decertified the controller or chewed them a new one. The On Scene Commander can end Your career. And in this case allowing an aircraft to crash resulting in injury or death was possible. The pilot did an outstanding job. The FAA would be proud of him. The controller, not so much.
That was one of the most infuriating ATC interactions I've ever heard. Compmetly unprofessional and flat out dangerous. When I was in training at NAVCANADA to be an IFR controller we studied the dangers of arrogance and ignorance. Its precisely this kind of attitude that kills people. I sincerely hope the pilot files a report against the controller, who needs to be reviewed. Absolutely appalling behaviour.
The FAA could use that training syllabus. I used to work with a few controllers that were hard on pilots at times. I would tell them "You're the reason some pilots would rather crash and die than call ATC for help." I've personally known a couple of pilots that were lost that way.
Such controllers doesn't help to identify talented pilots.. like Captain Maggie . they would crash land a student pilot even in VFR conditions. His punishment.. Post him at JFK and let the SUPER and HEAVY grill him over the radio ! Kennedy Steve did you listen did you see this video ?
It most likely was. I work ATC but in Canada, so no FAA. If I tried to argue with a pilot that declared an emergency like this controller did, I would be removed from operational duty pending a Transport Canada (Canadian equivalent of FAA) investigation.
All IFEs go for a quality assurance review. I'm sure its been talked about. Not to mention the endless shit talking on TH-cam by anyone who heard this. He is an faa employee, so it was most likely formally addressed immediately.
Absolutely disgusting from the ATC. Disagreeing with an emergency pilot about an emergency?? This is mental! This pilot could have been low houred or not familiar with the aircraft or airport. Or just not comfortable in IMC! This is disgusting. I'm never usually one to call for this but there needs to be an investigation into this controller and at worst that pilot should be chasing to have his job!
I'm not in the industry but from pretty much every other ATC emergency once that E word is declared the attitude shifts immediately to "What can I do to help you?"
If you are low houred, not familiar with aircraft/airport, or not comfortable with IMC, you don't declare an emergency. Then you just ask for help or clarification out loud over the radio. For example when student pilots need help from ATC when they fly solo, they say over radio they are student on solo and the ATC helps them or connects them with their instructor. Declaring an emergency you do as a last resort, when you are in real danger. In the same way you dont call 911 just because you have become lost in the night/fog on the way home. Then you call somewhere else and ask for help simply. Don't waste emergency resources on non-emergency situations. Could understand the ATC if the pilot declared an emergency needlessly. The pilot might just be unfamiliar with when to declare emergency, but then it might be better to just say the situation out loud from the radio and have the ATC declare for him if neccessary. Then he don't get the blame for declaring a needless emergency.
Did the controller not give vectors and an altitude and told the pilot to report in-sight? Because it sounds like he did and when the pilot reported visual contact, the controller released the pilot for a visual approach and then the pilot got mad. The pilot refused to give a PIREP, considering the weather the pilot reported was different from the station weather reported. So how was the controller supposed to know of the conditions if the pilot refused to give the controller the proper information to better assist the pilot?
@@erauprcwa don't waste a minute. Msfs pilots here know everything and they called out atc's fault) When I read the comments above I know right off that these people don't fly.
@@komrad1983 Doesn't matter whose fault it is. It's ATC's job to give the pilot as much assistance as required to get that aircraft safely on the ground. ATC was argumentative. He's the one who is understood to be the pro. And sending him to ATIS? Give him the altimeter setting and winds.
@@erauprcwa The pilot was busy flying the airplane. He wanted vectors to a visual and was very clear about that. He doesn't need to give a PIREP at that moment. ATC doesn't need to know the conditions. He just needed to provide what the pilot requested. Inadvertent IMC by a VFR pilot gives him 3 minutes to live, statistically, and considering he was in a spiral descent, it doesn't sound like he was instrument rated. I flew out of PRC while going to Riddle, too, so not exactly ignorant.
Not a great job by the controller. If the pilot had crashed, I'm sure the controller would have been considered a causal factor. I speak from 29 years center experience, and even a couple of plaques for helping pilots in emergencies. You gotta bring CALM to the table when you work those.
jumpmasterjm question for you. Preface: I have a PPL so I’m not completely unfamiliar with emergencies and ATC communications. Obviously all emergencies are investigated after the fact by the FAA. I’m sure ATC audio is reviewed during that process, correct? I hope this was investigated. Pretty unprofessional conduct by the controller which could’ve resulted in the loss of life (as you pointed out)
In nearly every single emergency in aviation the ATC gave his best to help the pilots resolving the issue/getting them on the ground as safe and fast as possible. This guy has the potential to escalate a smaller fault into a major emergency and is risking lives. He is like a firemen who doesn't give a damn about his job and his duties. Under no circumstance should this controller to be allowed to continue this line of job, he should not be allowed to work in the whole aviation field, because Communication and diligence is a major requirement from a pilot, over an ATC down to the some bag thrower from the terminal. Even cleaning personal have a better sense of duty then this guy.
bullshit. if the pilot crashed because he lost control in light rain and light turbulence the controller would have had nothing to do with it. what is ATC supposed to do, talk him out of his 'deep spiral?' pretty sure ATC isn't trained on unusual attitude recovery
@@iflyc77 Ressource management is the key word. If the ATC would do its job he would help with navigating and make communicating as easy as possible, so the pilots can focus on aviating.
controller - even he was not professional - did not say "deep breath...". Actually the pilot said that. okay, pilot fatigue, ifr, spo, everything against the controller professionalism, but commenters: please comment properly.. pilot said that "take a deep breath, ..." thing, not the atco
Darek M The pilot was somewhat non helpful with his tone if we get down to it, but doesn’t the controller know exactly where the bad weather was? I assume he has a radar screen if he’s an approach controller....he can easily see a pilot had a firm descent here and requested to turn around. If I’m in an emergency the last thing I have time for is talking to the controller and it’d be the lowest priority task at that point.
Someone needs to read FAR 91.3(a) to that controller and make him repeat it back until he understands it. When an emergency is declared, it's the pilot's job to fly the airplane and the controller's job to give the pilot whatever he asks for unless it will wind up routing him through cumulo-granite, no arguments, no questions asked.
This wasn’t a private pilot VMC into IMC. This is an instructor. Vectors for the ILS 2 which he turned down was his out. The controller handed it to him. Obviously, he was not prepared to fly an approach in actual conditions. The sad part is, this was a training flight.
floydndaisy could be but we don’t know what he was dealing with in the cockpit. He just went thru probably a severe t storm downdraft. Flying at night in turbulent mic. Florida and Hawaii and tropical locales have severe cumulonimbus weather that happens fast. Maybe the student was freaking out, we just don’t know. The controllers job is still to assist especially in an emergency. If I was that pilot I would be filing a complaint with the FAA and the tower supervisor. It’s not the controllers job to make things more difficult in a potentially dangerous situation.
@@floydndaisy Put simply, you're full of prunes. Read Brett Leonard's comment and then think about whether you'd want a vector to an ILS under those conditions. I sure as hell wouldn't. Besides, *you* need to read FAR 91.3(a) again. It's the controller's job to suggest options, but it's the pilot's job to fly the airplane in the conditions he's flying in right then. If the pilot says he can't do that, then the controller needs to shut up about what he thinks the pilot should do and give the pilot what he asks for..._now_.
Jay Maynard The controller cleared him for a visual approach with a right downwind entry when he had the field in sight. Did the controller really need to hold his hand for a simple visual maneuver? That’s private pilot stuff flying the pattern.
...but wouldn't it be illegal as the pilot to fly vfr with clouds between him and the airport. Sounds a lot easier to just ask for vectors. Why isn't the controller helping. We as pilots.are advised to refuse a visual clearance if there are clouds that will prevent it.
He may have been trying to get information, but it sounded as though the pilot was task saturated when first declaring the emergency. I don't think he was expecting the attitude from ATC. The first time asking for vectors, in an emergency the ATC needs to immediately comply.
Really. Just give him the f-ing weather. He’s declared an emergency and is struggling to control his aircraft. Don’t make him look up and tune the frequency for the weather when you could just tell him in 5 sec.
I still have no idea what all that attitude and passive-aggressiveness was from the controller. Even if the pilot up in the air is being a pain, it is the controller's job to maintain composure to get people down safely.
I've been watching plane channels for about 4 or 5 months now. Had the controller been XX, your OP would already be 10+ long with haughty reasons the ATC had attitude. But ATC is XY so the replies were crickets until now. Four or 5 months of these channels, I know this to be true.
THIS pilot didn't even know what a visual approach was and refused to give the controller more information in regards to the weather, to better assist the pilot. The pilot asked for a visual approach with vectors. The controller gave him that, and asked the pilot to report the airport insight. The pilot reported the airport insight. At that point the only thing the controller can do is clear the pilot for the visual, no further help is required, but the pilot then argued and complained they wanted more vectors and an altitude, AFTER reporting the airport insight... This is confusing. The pilot then stated that there were clouds. That's irrelevant, you reported the field insight so it's your job to avoid and keep the field in sight. If at any point you lose sight of the field, tell ATC and they can give further vectoring. The pilot didn't do this. He also refused to tell the controller the weather to better assist them.
Since when does light winds, high visibility, no cloud ceiling, and large temp/dewpoint spread = bad weather? The pilot made a radio call saying he has the field in sight, and the controller cleared him for a visual and then the pilot got upset...
@@jaredsebesta2009 I believe the pilot said there were clouds above and below and he could only intermittently see the airport. He was in IMC conditions. Above, an FAA ATC said this was “painful to watch”
This controller has ZERO place in this industry. I’m sure it’s made it on down the line, but I’m going to make sure and forward this because this guy is going to get somebody killed. I don’t think he had any idea how dangerous that situation was, the pilot certainly did. Kudos to him, he basically saved himself with good communication but had to wade through the controllers attitude to accomplish it. What a muppet, this profession has no place for agitated egos, especially in a low level IMC emergency.
Compare this guy to the lady who helped that wee 17 yearl girl land her plane on one wheel a while back one extreme to another glad she dident get this guy that day she wouldent be here😨😨
I stumbled on that recording by accident. It was remarkable - especially the change in tone of the ATC as soon as the young pilot communicated the problem. That is what you want to hear when you are in trouble.
Worst situational awareness by a controller that I have ever seen. Contrast that with the pilot ( who is in a world of *&%$) who keeps calm and cool throughout. When he asks for a vector and altitude, don't argue---give it to him immediately. Outstanding piloting --not intimidated or distracted by the arrogant controller. Kudos to him.
He didn't ask for an altitude first, he asked for a vector. The controller told him to fly direct to the Maui VOR. THIS pilot didn't even know what a visual approach was and refused to give the controller more information in regards to the weather, to better assist the pilot. The pilot asked for a visual approach with vectors. The controller gave him that, and asked the pilot to report the airport insight. The pilot reported the airport insight. At that point the only thing the controller can do is clear the pilot for the visual, no further help is required, but the pilot then argued and complained they wanted more vectors and an altitude, AFTER reporting the airport insight... This is confusing. The pilot then stated that there were clouds. That's irrelevant, you reported the field insight so it's your job to avoid and keep the field in sight. If at any point you lose sight of the field, tell ATC and they can give further vectoring. The pilot didn't do this. He also refused to tell the controller the weather to better assist them.
Early in my IR training I had a goosebump moment at night navigating out of terrain near Palm Springs. When I called up approach rather assertively asking for help and confirming my vectoring, the amazing ATC controller who at the time had her hands full with the “rush hour” of LAX arrivals immediately dropped everything and attended to my ‘out of the blue request.’ She even was the one who asked me if I’m declaring an emergency, in which by that time I was confident we were not. Nonetheless, the whole way back to KHHR all the subsequent SoCal Approach controllers held my hand including reporting to me weather at KHHR and thus not even requiring ATIS to clear me in for a visual. This video’s controller should take a masterclass from our amazing socal controllers who give more help to a NON-emergency pilot whilst juggling likely 40 airliners in and out of LAX.
You must not have met a manipulative person before. Just because someone tells you to “calm down” doesn’t mean you are the one acting out. Note: I’m not saying the pilot was being manipulative, just saying that simply saying “calm down” to someone doesn’t mean you are the good guy or the one acting appropriately in the situation.
@@jediskywalker356 Overall, I agree with you. In my experience, telling someone to calm down is one of the last useful things anyone could do to deescalate a conflict. However, in the context of this case, the controller was being unnecessarily aggressive and demanding. That has to factor into any evaluation of who was doing right or wrong.
This is unbelievable. This controller needs to get his head checked. When he said "3700 is an incorrect altitude" his MO became pretty clear. Dude already declared an emergency due to WX. If I was this pilot I'd be happy to pull the tapes. Controller needs a different line of work.
Evan Henrich can’t believe I heard that either. The controller was insinuating that he was going to report the pilot for pilot deviation for being 300’ low after declaring an emergency while he is sitting safe and sound on his comfy chair staring at his radar screen eating Cheetos.
I've worked guys in weather emergencies before. Jumping in their $hit and distracting them from flying the plane is a good way to kill people. I wish I could have yanked that guy off the scope and plugged in instead.
night nomad - The Pilot was climbing to get to 4,000. My guess is that he would indeed have been at 3,700 at some point during the climb. The ATC didn’t give him time to finish his climb...
@@noreplieshere The plane was over the ocean at the time the controller questioned his altitude. So no, there was no danger of him hitting anything at 3700 feet. When you cross the shoreline and get closer to the airport, there is a mountain range off the the left wing, but it is several miles away. The airport is at an elevation of 54 feet and all the terrain around it and leading up to it is mostly at the same elevation.
@@noreplieshere the ATC gave that instruction, the pilot read it back correctly, and then the ATC immediately (within two seconds, look at the time code) told him he was at the incorrect altitude. I'm no pilot, but I doubt the plane can simply apparate 250' straight up. The controller was clearly looking for a fight during that whole exchange.
Obviously, the list of egregious things from this controller is endless, but the first thing I noticed is that he didn't give the pilot the info from the ATIS, he asked him to advise when he had it- DURING AN EMERGENCY! I've been on VFR and IFR flights where the controller reads me most of the ATIS because his workload is light and he is being nice. And I haven't declared an emergency. 4:15 is the one that REALLY got me though because the controller is only speaking to serve his ego. He is making the pilot "wrong" for being 300 feet below the altitude he JUST assigned ("That is the incorrect altitude") because he has an attitude about the pilot TELLING HIM "Give me a vector and an altitude". Do you know if he was fired? I have never ever ever experienced a rude egomaniac controller in Seattle or on the west coast. They are all SUPER nice ESPECIALLY if you declare an emergency. This is just crazy!
4:15 The pilot is a moron for descending when he doesn't have the airport in sight, and ATC is telling him he needs to climb, he wasn't very polite about it but he got the point across.
I mean usually they give you an altitude that is to keep you and everyone else safe. 300ft off is pretty far off especially when its low. That could put you in the path of a mountain, building, antenna, tethered balloon, other traffic. All sorts of reasons. The pilot gave no indication in the emergency declaration that the aircraft or the pilot was no longer going to be able to maintain altitude in normal conditions so a stern warning that you are sinking to get the pilots attention is merited and the pilot should be thankful for it. He was not making the pilot wrong for being 300ft off. The pilot was just wrong for being 300ft off. Seems like you have an issue with the pilot taking responsibility for his own craft?
I am a flight instructor and an air traffic controller who teaches other controllers about how to respond to emergencies. CAVEAT: The views expressed are my one and are NOT official FAA policy. Based on the audio presented here, while the controller had a "right" to be confused about a couple of issues, there is no excuse in my opinion for the controller to berate a pilot in an emergency in this way. EVEN IF the controller believes that the emergency is faked in any way or that the pilot is somehow incompetent, that get's settled on the ground not in the air.
@@jumpmasterjm and so did the 'pilot'. All he had to do was ask for 'vectors to the ILS' and there would be nothing to discuss. Or the controller could have said, "I'm giving you vectors to the ILS XX approach, fly heading YYY to intercept and maintain ZZZ until established..." BOTH of the people in this event need to improve their aviation skills and JUDGEMENT.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut Based on my experience (which is admittedly unprofessional, consisting entirely of VATSIM), the best phraseology from the controller should've been to ask, "Are you able to accept vectors for the ILS Runway 2?"
@@philipmcniel4908 or better yet, "I'm going to give you vectors to intercept the ILS: Heading XXX, maintain Y,YYY until established..." If someone is _clearly_ overcome by events and cannot keep their 'stuff' together, then it _may_ be best to give succinct and _safe_ commands for them to follow. This pilot was _clearly_ in over his head, but he had the presence of mind to argue with the controller? Not the kind of guy I would want to fly with. Is he a pilot, yes. Is he an aviator, not really.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut It seems to me like it requires less presence of mind to argue with the controller than to just completely ignore the ATC's berating and lack of instructions and land on your own with the radio turned off in exasperation.
That ‘clipped’ tone the ATC has after the pilot tells him to take a deep breathe is so cringe. The ATC just makes himself sound like a petulant teenager.
So its ok for pilot to be provocative, not answer questions, and give "orders" to ATC. He clearly needs help getting down but questions ATC and presents attitude. Not very smart under the circumstances.
Now retired after 40 years in ground operations for a major airline. I was able to be the fly on the wall since the pilot would use my phone to call the tower. Lot's of interesting conversations after an incident. 99% of the time it was a civil discussion with a peaceful ending. In a few cases reports were filed, but not often. "We'll discuss this on the ground". Words to live by.
Not all emergencies are the same. You can have an emergency and still be able to do your job, like get ATIS. If you can't, you can ask ATC to give it to you. It's not uncommon.
@@erauprcwa when an emergency is declared its a fucking emergency. I don't care if you're in perfectly clear skies in a perfectly good plane. An emergency is an emergency
@@iflyc77 When, in a medical emergency, one pilot is incapacitated and his copilot himself may be delirious from lack of oxygen or similar, you still expect him to read ATIS and provide a PIREP?
@@roadent217 sure. I meant medical emergency with a passenger though. All the pilot has to day is unable, or standby if they are too task saturated at that moment. This guy just got all pissy
This reminds me of Grumpy, one of the ATCs at Vero Beach (KVRB). Arguably the most professional controller on site, but (probably because of his vast experience/professionalism) very grumpy when vague/unprofessional calls were made (mind you, KVRB is mainly a student environment), so a lot of people weren't exactly fond of him. I remember one of his outbursts after an Asian student had hit a bobcat with his propeller, keyed the mic and screamed: "WE HIT CAT! WE HIT CAT!".
My father knew a pilot in the RCAF who had also been a flight instructor for some young guys getting into the industry. One day, as they were both flying circuits, doing touch and go’s, the tower started getting a bit aggressive on frequency with the student pilot. So, the instructor told the student pilot to request for a full stop landing, and requested the student pilot to stop on the runway near the tower. The student pilot did so, and when he stopped, the flight instructor got out and walked from the runway directly to the tower, and gave the controller shit for pushing the student pilot around. They never had that issue again. TLDR: Don’t push new pilots around.
Don't know about the story but the TLDR- that pilot gave so many clues that he was green as all hell. Don't push new pilots around. It's life and death sometimes. You can't just decide it's not a real emergency and start loading up a new pilot who's struggling to fly. Unacceptable
I want to caution some of you observers/ commenters about taking some of these pilot's attitudes expressed here into the airways. This is a clear example of abuse of service and Unnecessary use of emergency authority and assistance. Controllers do not know where your weather problems lie except for Pireps and evaluating weather conditions. I believe the spiral decent was pilot initiated and not meteorological in nature.. if you turn down the ILS and report the field in sight then it is up to you to do that contingent on being able to keeping it in sight. PILING ON unnecessary request in the guise of still being in an emergency is not what constitute the best use of the facility and services. Your baseline beliefs should be that the controllers are there to help and are formulating avenues or plan to assist. They are not a Pinata. Assertiveness should be appropriately and sparingly applied, this was an abuse of emergency assistance. Be careful piling on to the flavor of the mount with all these thumbs up and withy comments, this pilot clearly abused the ATC services
@@TH-cam.TOM.A Yeah it all sounds good except... Both pilots AND ATCs in the comments noted some of them know this particular guy and confirmed he's a butthole, from both perspectives.
@@mihan2d Commentors on social media; the equiilant of the salem witch trial, the only proof that i have to evaluate is the transcript, he sounds like a perfectionist but well intended.
For me the most difficult part of learning to fly was having to deal with the radio communications side of flying a plane. It can be a chore and took the fun out of it for me. I was always afraid I would say something wrong or make a mistake.
It's a common fear but honestly you're very rarely going to get critiqued or yelled at because of your speech precision on radio. I change up the order of my read-backs all the time. As long as the pertinent information is there and is accurate, ATC is not really going to give you too much grief. Don't let it stop you! :) - It also depends on what airports you frequent. ATC at Hartsfield-Jackson is going to have far less patience than ATC at a smaller municipal airport somewhere
i forgot the word "inbound" and looked to my instructor and he shrugged his shoulders and smiled like he would often do when he was not opening the door on landing ... so i told the tower " coming at you from the south at 4000' " everything when fine ....
I’m relatively confident that the audio & video replay from this incident will become a mandatory training item for FAA controllers. The vast majority of us strive to provide a service in a professional manner, and I’m glad a majority of you pilots recognize this.
Yes, 3700 is not 4000’, you only allowed zero feet below 4000 and considering he’s incompetent pilot, disoriented, inaccurate altimeter sittings on a night flight ... perfect recipe for a disasters
@Hornet yes, and you should correct instantly, on final approach you’re allowed zero feet below assigned attitude and no more that 100’ above, on the other hand he’s making sure that local altimeter sitting is correct
By far the worst controller I’ve ever heard. Thankfully the pilot did a lot of things right after declaring emergency, particularly holding his ground with approach. Given a recent high profile crash highlighting what can go wrong in IMC there really is no excuse. I don’t say this lightly, but I hope that guy never has the privilege to control an aircraft again.
Even after that exchange, N3927 still was calling him sir and saying thank you, really shows who was the bigger man here. Props to him for being that patient, if I'd just been in a spiral descent and ATC was treating it like it was no big deal, I think I would've snapped. What about intermittent clouds didn't he understand? Cancelling his approach clearance after he declared an emergency is the biggest power trip and F you I've seen on this channel.
A bigger man would have used the time reprimanding the ATC to instead give a pirep or more info about the emergency or the status of the aircraft or anything else more useful to the situation. Pilot was out of his depths.
It's Hawaii. This kind of behavior isn't unusual. No body would tolerate it on the mainland. But there, people in "authority" have a tendency to let the power go to their heads. I'm absolutely NOT surprised by this at all and absolutely nothing will be done about it. He'll probably even get a promotion.
My best guess - the pilot DEMANDED vectors, not requested so ATC must've felt that somehow this pilot diminished his authority by giving him orders. And the way that this ATC dealt with 'declared emergency' is super-violation of every rules in these situation, hope the guy is in the elite of the unemployed now as he is a real danger, not the weather
Well, thats not how it works. The ATC doesnt have ultimate authority over the aircraft anyway. The PIC is the ultimate authority on the aircraft, and they do have the responsibility to disregard ATC instructions in the event they believe it to be the safest course of action. Not the option, not the choice - they are required by the law to maintain the safety of the aircraft, and if that requires disregarding instructions from ATC then they are compelled to do so. After the event, it may be a question of fact whether disregarding the instructions was the safest course of action, however.
FAR 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. (a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft. (b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
This is insane, controller getting snippy and standoffish with a pilot in an emergency simply asking for help landing. Honestly unbelievable, and in IMC conditions like that truly terrifying
1:32 - 1:40 -- He goes from 4900 to 4500 in 8 seconds. That's a 3,000fpm descent. I'll accept his marginally annoyed tone given that he was on a truly wild ride that would've had most people losing their s*** one way or another.
@@5hiftyL1v3a No, you're wrong. The 3-digit number below his callsign is altitude in hundreds of feet (e.g. 1000' = 010; 4500' = 045; 18,000' = 180 = FL180). The two digit number is airspeed in tens of knots (e.g. 70 knots = 07). Heading is not numerically displayed at all.
But maybe you can explaine me this.. why did he declared a emergency at all? He was not in a spiral descent, i heard no alarms and he gives information that there are clouds ABOVE him what has no value at all. He may talk calm but that guy was out of control. At one point he see the airport, the next second he needs a vector? I can feel the frustration of the atc. And also his suspicion why he asked the severity of the turbulences. That was in my opinion a pilot who was unsure and therefore he demanded someone holding his hand until he landed.
@@comfortableovertones okay i understand. Really makes sense bc when the pilot has a problem with air pressure or anything like that you literally have to explain them how to fly a plane. And a lost pilot at night may get scared and needs a hand. I get it, the atc should have made his complains once the plane is on the ground, but not be a A hole while he was in air.
Rude? Unhelpful? i'd say incompetent. Controllers must be calm and communicate clearly during an emergency. Just think of all the great examples on this channel of a controller calmly, professionally assisting the PIC in managing an emergency. I hope this controller received the follow up training and counseling necessary so they can be that professional controller we all need....or make the decision to pursue another career.
Wow, an emergency aircraft needing to tell a controller to take a deep breath and calm down? Yikes! Kudos to the pilot for keeping it together. Btw I’m assuming the emergency was VFR into IMC. The pilot could have clearly stated that but either way it’s not the controller’s prerogative to argue about the nature of the emergency and it should have been fairly obvious anyway.
@@THEEJuror13 I think the descending spiral was to get out of the cloud layer. @Keven Guimaraes the pilot doesn't need to say anything other than I'm declaring an emergency. If ATC absolutely needs to know the reason for it they can do so when everyone is on the ground safe and you have all the time in the world. Until then it's utterly irrelevant.
@@THEEJuror13 Does it show the spiral pattern on radar? I never saw anything there that would indicate a loss of control nor does the pilot declare a loss of control. With the altitude he's dropping it seems very much like a rapid controlled descent. He was pretty close to a Hawaiian island too, which is probably why he didn't want to begin his TOD while heading back towards the airport since he wouldn't know where the mountains were. I'm happy to be corrected here just curious as to what makes you certain of that. Thanks
If that pilot was in a real emergency situation... he wouldn't have had all the spare time on hand to school the controller! His attitude was the problem! Stop encouraging bad behavior!
I was so disturbed by the action of this controller. I was very impressed with the Pilot's communication almost needing to make his emergency request but to also help the controller do his job which created a higher workload for the Pilot. The FAA should review this controllers action as I can say as a ATP over 12,000 hours my action would be to take legal action with a case that the controller failed his duties to assist in a emergency condition and compounded the workload of this Pilot. Completely inexcusable. For the Pilot Great Job I loved your comment we can talk on the Ground!!
This is the only correct take. Very easy to see in these comments who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t, from a fellow career airline pilot
The controller deserves prison time, loss of his job, and should be barred from working any other job relating to aerospace and aeronautics ever again. This was absolutely unforgivable.
What disturbed you? The FAA should review you because if this disturbed you and you really are and ATP a lot of people are in danger flying with a pilot that cant hack it. The pilot at no point in the video helped the ATC do his job. Id challenge you to explain this in more detail. The pilot requested things from the ATC the ATC delivered those things. Generally when an aircraft declares and emergency the ATC asks for information from the pilot, this is pretty standard. Again, if you dont understand this or the idea of it disturbs you than please speak with your company and the FAA because you need further training for hundreds of lives are put in your hands.
Well he fucking did though, didn't he? What do you think "visual approach" means? That there will be a magic lane amidst the clouds for ATC to vector you into? It doesn't.
@@erauprcwa During an emergency, the ATC doesn't have to support the pilot to land safely on the ground? What's the point of declaring an emergency, then?
In UK the ATC had to also be pilots (current or prior). Not sure if this still a requirement, but it certainly was when I visited Manchester ATC via a friend. This guy seemed like he was relaxed but frustrated all at once, like his Zen routine, or spliff was interrupted
@@tidritblag9877 he didn't have visual, you know, on account of the rapidly developing weather strong enough to shunt his left wing down 50 degrees and force him into a temporarily unrecoverable spiral descent. you're the idiot.
my advice if I was in a spiral descent with turbulence and rain, any questions atc has for me can wait. Aviate above all else. The pilot was probably feeling pretty rattled after the situation, dealt with it well. Felt like a really odd interaction listening to it. Glad they made it back okay, serious turbulence in imc in a small GA plane is no joke.
@@darekm6859 I disagree, when a pilot declares an emergency it doesn't feel like a good time. He can ask all the questions when the plane is safely landed. It's the pilots call on this one, and the ATC is there to ASSIST the pilot, not interrogate. Sure some pilots might take advantage of calling in an emergency to get priority for instance, but questions should not be asked when I pilot possibly already has a ton of workload. there is no need for the childish behaviour the ATC is showing because he doesn't get his way.
The controller is safe on the ground while the pilot is up in the air in trouble. Controller needs to be calm, helpful, and reassuring even if the pilot is rattled.
I am an ATC and this attitude was a real embarrassment for our professionals...just don't forget, just as in the pilots herd...we also have our rotten apples... sorry again.
I heard this one on another channel and it changed the context where the pilot had no real emergency and was just forcing atc to treat him like he was. He just didn't want to fly in the rain. I think it was on 74Gear.
747Gear had no idea of the real details of the incident and he didn’t mention any what you that since I just watched it. Just another mediocre airline pilot.
@@JediOfTheRepublic The guy was not in a spiral descent and was a complete amateur pilot. 74 gear is actually a very experienced pilot. But please tell us your expertise sir….
It doesn’t matter either way. The pilot declared a mayday. It’s not for atc to determine the legitimacy of the mayday and base their helpfulness off of that assumption.
@@JimCar71 ATC did not give him attitude until the pilot kept barking orders at him. Pilot was cleared for visual approach. Then the pilot says he needs vectors. You don’t need vectors for a visual approach. Pilot was giving mixed signals and acting like he knew the terminology when in reality he had no clue what he was saying. That was not an emergency and way to clog up the airwaves.
Incredible. I got more help than I needed with partial power loss on a checkride than me or my DPE asked for and the only question asked was souls and fuel on board.
Indeed, the inbound emergency has priority. The controller needed only state, "I'm showing you at 3700" to assist the pilot in maintaining safe flight.
To be fair, this is Hawaii, its quite probable these two had history before. There are pilots who have declared dozens of emergencies in the air, and ATCs don't like that. Don't KNOW that's what happened here, but I have heard ATCs and pilots get into tiffs for petty reasons before.
@@fortusvictus8297 i don’t believe this particular pilot actually did, but I now a LOT of other pilots filed numerous reports and had incidents with him.
What would you like the ATC to do different? What could the pilot have done different to be better as well? Since PIC is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and occupants.
I really hope this gets investigated (which since it was a declared emergency it should) and that controller is reprimanded/finds another line of work. He seemed so arrogant and well, like an asshole. That pilot could've suffered some severe consequences as a result of the controller's ineptitude. Wow. I'm so glad he made it safely to the ground.
The CONTROLLER's ineptitude? Pretty sure it was the pilot on an IFR flight plan that claimed to lose control worthy of declaring an emergency because they flew into light turbulence and IMC. "Get me out of this!" "Uhhhh, ok. Fly heading 090?" Controllers can't see clouds and turbulence you know... I can't believe all of these stupid comments
@@iflyc77 That's besides the point. This has more to do with the attitude of the controller which was completely unnecessary and made an already dangerous situation, much worse. He discussed things on an open freq that should have waited until the pilot called the tower after he landed. Why someone would defend this guy makes no sense. You don't have to be a pilot to see how his attitude is inappropriate and unprofessional.
@@AmyAnnLand If there is weather conditions severe enough out there that warrant a loss of control emergency the controller needs to know about that in order to keep other aircraft from experiencing it. Severe turbulence, tornado, bean stalk stretching into the stratosphere - whatever. Other pilots should probably avoid that. Then the controller was obviously confused because the conditions were nothing that any half way proficient instrument pilot would write home about. The pilot wasn't giving out any information - much less the kind that would help him and the controller couldn't get it out of him. They were both unprofessional, but the pilot started it.
@@iflyc77 "but the pilot started it". How old are we? I think we can cut the pilot some slack due to the nature of the emergency. I'm not saying the pilot doesn't have fault here, but I've seen many of these situations where the nature of the emergenct not immediately known but the controller acts much more professionally and does not make the situation more difficult. It doesn't matter who started it, and even if the pilot wasn't forthcoming with information (or didn't know yet) it is no excuse for the ATC's attitude. He wasted time discussing things that should wait until the pilot is on the ground.
That controller needs his ass handed to him. An emergency is declared, get the plane on the ground. As a retired controller if one of my guys pulled that crap I'd personally pull him from position. What's wrong with possible vectors to an opposite runway, let him fly that and once visual and clear of clouds clear for a visual. The pilot did a good job and should never of had to deal with that poor service
He called the airport in sight, controller cleared him for a visual approach to get the aircraft on the ground? I can't believe all of you people in the comments wanting to kill the controller over this.
@@iflyc77 I think you're missing quite a bit here. He asked for ATIS for a pilot experiencing an emergency. He questioned the pilot on weather conditions, hinting that it wasn't a real emergency. He refused to give vectors after the emergency was declared. Then got the shittiest attitude ever when the pilot called him (correctly so) unhelpful. The moment you're talking about was really just the final straw and even if the pilot was rude about it, he's still in an emergency aircraft. The controller should have just given him the vectors when he asked for them.
Paul Hood The pilot was offered the ILS and was obviously not able to fly if for whatever reason. That would have reduced the workload considerably. I don’t have to tell you the requirements for a visual approach which is what he was basically looking for. What’s sad is this was a training flight. The pilot’s IFR skills and phraseology obviously need work. “Left turn heading 090...did you want that left or right”.....
He did... Then the pilot said he had the airport/beacon and was cleared for the visual, as requested. Then the pilot got mad and wanted more vectors. You cant say you have visual and then want more vectors, then yell at the controller because there's clouds... as if the controller knows what the weather is, after you've already stated that the reported weather is not actual and refused to give a PIREP to notify the controller of the change in weather.
@@FlourescentPotato In what ways did he not help the pilot? He gave the pilot everything he asked, with very little information. When the pilot gave conflicting information, the controller, probably not in the most professional way, but he was frustrated, asked the pilot what they wanted, after the pilot stated something that conflicts with proper protocol... (Requesting a visual approach, says they have the visual, then proceeds to berate the controller for clearing them for the visual).
@@jme_a Instead of throw away facetious comments, can someone please explain why I'm wrong? I'm legit fascinated by this incident and I think it's a scenario that we can all learn from.
I once got caught in weather/TS in an AH-1 in SC. Of course the AC was not equipt for IMC. I called Beaufort MCAS. At first they were telling me to fly to so and so inersection/VOR yada yada. I told them I have a compass, VSI and airspeed. They were very patient and got me on approach to the sctuve just as the storm was overhead and sun was setting. As i finished my approach a bolt of lightening hit a runway light beside me. They rapidly said " hover taxi speed at your descretion to other side of the airfield, anywhere!😅 Great Devil Dog ATC. Saved my Air Cav rump. Semper fi!
What did he do that was wrong? He did everything the pilot asked of him. The pilot failed to understand what a "visual approach" was and refused to give any information of the emergency.
Even giving a frequency change is questionable: The pilot reported airport in sight, and was somewhat calm, but in most cases, and definitely with a panicked pilot, you would have him remain on your frequncy to avoid having him switch to an incorrect one, and then lose communication. If necessary, you switch everyone else so it's just controller/pilot. The controller has direct communication with the tower, and could have relayed tower instructions.
I'm on the side in this one that the controller was less than helpful. It sounds like the pilot was not instrument rated or if he was got rattled by the turbulence, IMC conditions, etc. Once he declares an emergency and asks for help, the controller should have been giving him the ATIS right away once the pilot said he did not have the ATIS. The pilot stated several times that the airport and beacon were intermittent because of the clouds between them. If you are rattled and just trying to get yourself and family or passengers down safely, the last extra-load on your plate that you need is a controller arguing with you in a critical phase of flight. And once this controller got butt-hurt, he immediately became less helpful and began chastising the pilot for a minor altitude deviation while he had declared an emergency. I got in some turbulence that was not forecasted a few years back where I was literally thrown around the sky for 10 minutes and if I hadn't done so much actual instrument training around that time, could have been incredibly alarming. Non-pilot ATC controllers should be required (or at least strongly encouraged) to get at least 15 hours of flight training in small aircraft before being certified as a controller. I'm guessing this controller would be curled up in a ball on the floor sucking his thumb in this circumstance. One of the Chicago area DPE's remarked recently that the shortage of controllers have led to the system allowing some very low-quality controllers to become certified, but I think the Chicago Area controllers are some of the best around. I had a well known controller in the western Chicago suburbs mix up the N-numbers on two planes on crossing runways 7,000ft away from each other, resulting in him having an aircraft "line up and wait" on runway 26 just as I was 50 ft from touching down on runway 26. I heard him mix up the numbers and looked immediately down and to the left and saw the plane in time as it was pulling straight in front of me. I went around and everything worked out, but this was not the 1st time this kind of stuff happened.
![[REAL ATC] An UNRULY AIR MARSHAL forces emergency landing!](/img/n.gif)
I couldn't believe this when I first heard it :O
There’s definitely a few bad eggs working HCF. Great composure on behalf of the pilot!
This one was rude, unhelpful, yes. But that Mexican readback fetishist/phraseology nazi a few years back was definitely ruder, even if there was no emergency involved.
Man he shouldn't be there, unbelievable
@Guss Ruffee I remember that. Good one Guss.
What. The. Actual. Heck.
Are you kidding me?! Asking an emergency aircraft for a PIREP and asking him to get the ATIS? Not giving him vectors when the pilot asked three times? Arguing with him? This gentleman needs a new career.
I hear the airport has an opening in the custodial department.
The airplane was obviously under control and the pilot said the emergency was weather related. ATC needs to know about that so as not to send any other traffic to the conditions bad enough to declare an emergency for. The controller got confused because 'IMC, light turbulence, and light rain' aren't really emergency grade weather conditions. I heard him get tons of vectors, and then call the airport in sight. Pilot needs remedial training if he can't fly in IMC and if he doesn't know what the responsibilities of a visual approach include.
@@iflyc77 IMC by itself is an emergency to a non-instrument-rated pilot, which many GA light-aircraft pilots are. VFR into IMC is a real killer.
This pilot knew how to read his instruments well enough to follow vectors to a VFR airfield, and that's what he was asking for.
@@Kromaatikse I agree. I would hope that he is an instrument rated pilot though being that he was on an IFR flight plan.
I also agree that he wanted vectors to VFR, even though he didn't say that at all. The controller pointed him at the airport, he reported it in sight, got cleared for the visual and got all pissy because there were still clouds around him. That is like using Google Maps to get to Chipolte, but then throwing your phone out the window because it doesnt give you the turn by turn into an open parking spot.
@@iflyc77 No. You deal with the emergency first, then worry about anything else. He said he had the beacon in sight "intermittently" and a vector was appropriate to maintain his base course. Also, he might not have been able to set up an IMC approach since he was in IMC. I have no idea why you made your comment or what skills you presume GA pilots to have.
2:58 "Standby, we can talk on the ground"
Well done that pilot for remembering Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
Well he’s not remembering the third part.
It's as if the ATC decided "ah, he's just scared of some clouds, it's not a *real* emergency!". Meanwhile at the beginning of the call the plane was being forced into a spiral decent (according to a comment further up)
@@FBWFTW You're ignoring that the third part gets disregarded if the first two are consuming all your resources. That's the point of the saying.
@@3dbeergoggles Didn't the pilot say that the problem was weather related and that the emergency was over. Seems like a reasonable point for ATC to ask for a bit more information on the weather problem so as to have other traffic avoid it. At least that's what seemed to be happening to me based on just listening to it once. That said both men could have handled it better.
@@kurttappe correct! Aviate, Navigate, communicate in that order! When you enter an uncommanded spiral you FLY the A/C without regard for vectors/heading. Once level flight is established, you Navigate... point it in the correct (or safest) direction. Then (and only then) you communicate!!
Regardless a PIREP would always be superfluous communication for a pilot who has declared an emergency.
I thought he did well, and was far more professional with ATC than I would've been!
"Please say again the nature of your emergency"
"It's you."
Any time I see "it's you" I think of "How are you gentlemen? All your base are belong to us. You have no chance to survive make your time"
@@Remaggib I shouldn't be laughing this hard
😹😹😹
*"Duck Sauce - It's You" starts playing*
The nature of the pilot's emergency was incompetence.
I once had a controller tell me to proceed directly to an airport in the Chicago area. Doing so would have required a class B clearance. When I asked if I was cleared through the class B airspace I received a firm ‘negative’ as a response. I was a pretty new pilot at the time and I felt the guy was baiting me. Left a sour taste in my mouth.
What did you end up doing? Can you get in trouble if you went into class b even though they advised you to prior? im confused lol
@@Sevisstillalive As far as I know it's the responsibility of the pilot to stay in line with airspace rules, even if the controller advised it.
@@rexiklexi169 Like TCAS. It tells one plane to climb and one to descends if they are on a course to collide. I just know of that cause of an NTSB investigation were pilots did the opposite and they collided cause they were listening to the controller.
That’s nothing compared to the raging idiots in small private planes.
@@Sevisstillalive Thankfully the regulations are clear on this matter. If you do not have a clearance into Class B, and you fly into it, you are in violation of that reg. Now, circumstances are important, so if for instance there was an emergency situation, as long as you can justify WHY you did something, you're fine. And remember, the pilot in command can deviate from any regulation required to meet the extent of the emergency.
You know ATC done messed up when it sounds like the pilot's about to give HIM a number to call
StrokeMahEgo
I lol'd.
give HIM a number to call--------------> Unemployment office
Lmaooooo
This is actually what "we'll talk on the ground" means.
That pilot should never ever be allowed to fly again.
As a controller myself...this is just embarrassing. What a shame.
I totally agree, colleague.
I still believe that there are many good ATCs and I really respect to your job
It isn't a great look for the pilot, either
Chairman Kimchee i’m right there with you brother.
@@philtll Pilot looks a little dumb after prompting a visual approach clearance and then asking for a vector and altitude. But man the controller is on a whole 'nother level with his attitude in this case.
The last thing you should.worry about when flying is the controllers attitude. This is sad
@@annejean-philippeotton8073 I think you misunderstood this comment. Peter is saying that it should be a given that the controller will have a helpful attitude when a pilot declares an emergency and the pilot should only have to worry about flying the airplane... not flying the airplane and dealing with an unhelpful jackass controller.
@@annejean-philippeotton8073 could it be that you somehow mixed up attitude and altitude and the persons for which each thing is relevant? :D
Ahah you're right guys! I was commenting the vid on several media at the same time and I mixed up things... Sorry, cancelling that
@@annejean-philippeotton8073 hahaha, you've had your coffee yet? ;)
The last thing you should be doing is giving the controller attitude in an emergency. Aviate THEN Communicate.
10 years as a CFII/MEII. Never experienced something this bad. I hope the controller was fired. Sitting in an air conditioned office listening to someone in distress thousands of feet above safety, and this is what he offers for help. What a punk.
Big facts
@@apastafarian5051 been a long time since Ive watched this video and your comment made me come watch it again. Got my blood boiling again. Just shameful what this guy did.
@@Hondaridr58 makes me think he never been 3 thousand feet in the fucking air Wondering if you gonna make it back down. ATC should be pilots as well. Lol sorry I brought you back
@@apastafarian5051 lol all good brotha. I agree, controllers should be at least private Pilots. It's one of those things where, you REALLY don't know what it's like until you've been in the situation. It seems like pilots become nothing more than numbers attached to voices for controllers sometimes. The same could be said for us pilots being in a controllers position. This guy though... Don't need to be in his position to realize how wrong he is.
Can government employees even get fired?
"I said give me an ALTitude, not ATTitude!"
Best comment
Yes :-)
Good one
Beautiful!
Good one
You should know you're doing crappy job as ATC when a pilot in emergency tells you to take a deep breath and help him get out of danger...
Truth.
Eh, not in this case...
Right that would be like a shot to the chest
@@erauprcwa Exactly.
Pilot is the main issue . ATC screwed up in the beginning as he didn't give vectors, but finally understood and gave pilot the vectors. ATC asked pilot whether he is doing visual or ils. Pilot says visual. Then pilot says AIRPORT IN SIGHT.. ATC cleared approach. Then pilot gets testy when ATC didn't "read his mind" that he still needed vectors... even after airport is it sight.
What the pilot needs to do is declare what he needs clearly. all he need to do is "airport in sight, but i still need vectors, intermittent visual".
People can't read minds....
As a retired FAA ATC, this was actually painful to listen to. 🙉
Thomas, yes, never in my 34 years in ATC, have I heard a controller handle an emergency in such a manner. One ego-tripper, that should not be in a control position.
@Jo Mamma it's youtube numbnuts ppl give their opinions like it or not 😂😅😂
Retired center controller, and a PPL here. I am totally embarrassed by this, but certainly not surprised. Entitled punk is what I kept saying to myself as I heard him do his small-pe*is thing.
Not only painful but scary. Was this ATC a wannabe pilot? Can't believe he still had a jib!!!
A growing issue is that fewer and fewer ATCs are also pilots. They don't necessarily have a good frame of reference regarding the problems pilots report.
ATC wanted a “belt measuring” contest with the pilot. The pilot declared an emergency, the ATC’s primary responsibility at this point is to give the pilot all the info he needs to land safely. Questioning the pilot as to WHY he needs the info is way out of bounds. Those questions can and should be asked AFTER the pilot has landed.
He’s asking because the pilot is giving him mixed signals. ATC offered ILS and pilot declined and requested VFR then confirmed airport in sight, then he requested vectors. Pilot is all over the place.
@@CrimsonFlameRTR Weather is also "all over the place". It changes dramatically, quickly (especially around the islands if you've ever spent any time there and watched the convective activity). The time for why's is later.
@@CrimsonFlameRTR Also look at the time. Well after sunset, this is at night over the pacific ocean
When declaring an IFE, The Fire Chief or Ground Safety officer becomes On the Ground/Scene commander if there is one. From experience, they would have decertified the controller or chewed them a new one. The On Scene Commander can end Your career. And in this case allowing an aircraft to crash resulting in injury or death was possible. The pilot did an outstanding job. The FAA would be proud of him. The controller, not so much.
Nah power move, this pilot can grow up.
That was one of the most infuriating ATC interactions I've ever heard. Compmetly unprofessional and flat out dangerous. When I was in training at NAVCANADA to be an IFR controller we studied the dangers of arrogance and ignorance. Its precisely this kind of attitude that kills people. I sincerely hope the pilot files a report against the controller, who needs to be reviewed. Absolutely appalling behaviour.
The FAA could use that training syllabus. I used to work with a few controllers that were hard on pilots at times. I would tell them "You're the reason some pilots would rather crash and die than call ATC for help." I've personally known a couple of pilots that were lost that way.
Such controllers doesn't help to identify talented pilots.. like Captain Maggie . they would crash land a student pilot even in VFR conditions. His punishment.. Post him at JFK and let the SUPER and HEAVY grill him over the radio !
Kennedy Steve did you listen did you see this video ?
@@jumpmasterjm II'm sorry to hear about your loss.
I like that controller.
There's the United 1448 runway incursion, where the controller is practically shouting at an airliner to take off straight into them...
This needs to be submitted to the FAA.
it was im sure of it
Yes this controller has quite the past with other pilots he should be fired
Following..this is the worst ATC I've heard.
It most likely was. I work ATC but in Canada, so no FAA. If I tried to argue with a pilot that declared an emergency like this controller did, I would be removed from operational duty pending a Transport Canada (Canadian equivalent of FAA) investigation.
All IFEs go for a quality assurance review. I'm sure its been talked about. Not to mention the endless shit talking on TH-cam by anyone who heard this. He is an faa employee, so it was most likely formally addressed immediately.
Absolutely disgusting from the ATC. Disagreeing with an emergency pilot about an emergency?? This is mental! This pilot could have been low houred or not familiar with the aircraft or airport. Or just not comfortable in IMC! This is disgusting. I'm never usually one to call for this but there needs to be an investigation into this controller and at worst that pilot should be chasing to have his job!
I'm not in the industry but from pretty much every other ATC emergency once that E word is declared the attitude shifts immediately to "What can I do to help you?"
Sounded like he was slurring his words too.
The pilot was clearly under a great deal of stress. The ATC made everything worse.
If you are low houred, not familiar with aircraft/airport, or not comfortable with IMC, you don't declare an emergency. Then you just ask for help or clarification out loud over the radio. For example when student pilots need help from ATC when they fly solo, they say over radio they are student on solo and the ATC helps them or connects them with their instructor.
Declaring an emergency you do as a last resort, when you are in real danger. In the same way you dont call 911 just because you have become lost in the night/fog on the way home. Then you call somewhere else and ask for help simply. Don't waste emergency resources on non-emergency situations.
Could understand the ATC if the pilot declared an emergency needlessly.
The pilot might just be unfamiliar with when to declare emergency, but then it might be better to just say the situation out loud from the radio and have the ATC declare for him if neccessary. Then he don't get the blame for declaring a needless emergency.
@@sebastiannielsen There's no "needless emergency" while the aircraft is in the air. That had to be dealth with once the pilot is on the ground.
Pilot: “Requesting vectors for the visual”
App: “Just look for the airport, can you see it?”
Pilot: uh my engine just stopped working.
ATC: good luck with that let me know how everything turns out.
Did the controller not give vectors and an altitude and told the pilot to report in-sight? Because it sounds like he did and when the pilot reported visual contact, the controller released the pilot for a visual approach and then the pilot got mad.
The pilot refused to give a PIREP, considering the weather the pilot reported was different from the station weather reported. So how was the controller supposed to know of the conditions if the pilot refused to give the controller the proper information to better assist the pilot?
@@erauprcwa don't waste a minute. Msfs pilots here know everything and they called out atc's fault) When I read the comments above I know right off that these people don't fly.
@@komrad1983 Doesn't matter whose fault it is. It's ATC's job to give the pilot as much assistance as required to get that aircraft safely on the ground. ATC was argumentative. He's the one who is understood to be the pro.
And sending him to ATIS? Give him the altimeter setting and winds.
@@erauprcwa The pilot was busy flying the airplane. He wanted vectors to a visual and was very clear about that. He doesn't need to give a PIREP at that moment. ATC doesn't need to know the conditions. He just needed to provide what the pilot requested. Inadvertent IMC by a VFR pilot gives him 3 minutes to live, statistically, and considering he was in a spiral descent, it doesn't sound like he was instrument rated.
I flew out of PRC while going to Riddle, too, so not exactly ignorant.
when asked for an altitude all he got was an attitude...
Aye good one
GrifFungin lol
That sounds like a good line for a Country-Western music song based on this...
"Oh, I thought you wanted more ATTITUDE. My bad."
Easy mistake
Not a great job by the controller. If the pilot had crashed, I'm sure the controller would have been considered a causal factor. I speak from 29 years center experience, and even a couple of plaques for helping pilots in emergencies. You gotta bring CALM to the table when you work those.
jumpmasterjm question for you. Preface: I have a PPL so I’m not completely unfamiliar with emergencies and ATC communications.
Obviously all emergencies are investigated after the fact by the FAA. I’m sure ATC audio is reviewed during that process, correct? I hope this was investigated. Pretty unprofessional conduct by the controller which could’ve resulted in the loss of life (as you pointed out)
In nearly every single emergency in aviation the ATC gave his best to help the pilots resolving the issue/getting them on the ground as safe and fast as possible. This guy has the potential to escalate a smaller fault into a major emergency and is risking lives. He is like a firemen who doesn't give a damn about his job and his duties. Under no circumstance should this controller to be allowed to continue this line of job, he should not be allowed to work in the whole aviation field, because Communication and diligence is a major requirement from a pilot, over an ATC down to the some bag thrower from the terminal. Even cleaning personal have a better sense of duty then this guy.
bullshit. if the pilot crashed because he lost control in light rain and light turbulence the controller would have had nothing to do with it. what is ATC supposed to do, talk him out of his 'deep spiral?' pretty sure ATC isn't trained on unusual attitude recovery
@@iflyc77 Ressource management is the key word. If the ATC would do its job he would help with navigating and make communicating as easy as possible, so the pilots can focus on aviating.
'Take a deep breath' LOL shouldn't that be the controller saying that..lmao wow just wow
Joe Pace controller should be providing assistance. He’s acting like a child. His job isn’t that hard. (15 years as a controller)
controller - even he was not professional - did not say "deep breath...". Actually the pilot said that. okay, pilot fatigue, ifr, spo, everything against the controller professionalism, but commenters: please comment properly..
pilot said that "take a deep breath, ..." thing, not the atco
Adrenaline makes people say stuff they wouldn’t normally say.
@@richardnagy665 Man you just brainfarted right there
@@richardnagy665 are you on drugs?
After hearing this recording, Kennedy tower reached out to this controller for a position.
hahahahahahahha
Never had a problem with Kennedy.
Kennedy is fast and concise which some deem as rude.
This was childish and immature.
@@j.thomas7128 So is getting offended at a youtube comment.
@@j.thomas7128 The irony is strong with your comment. Go gain some IQ points.
"We'll talk on the ground" = "I have a number for you."
“AiR PoRt iN SiGHt” “okay cleared for visual” “ n00000000000000”
hope that talking was done with his fist, and the number was 911
@@darekm6859
no
@@darekm6859 found the atc
Darek M The pilot was somewhat non helpful with his tone if we get down to it, but doesn’t the controller know exactly where the bad weather was? I assume he has a radar screen if he’s an approach controller....he can easily see a pilot had a firm descent here and requested to turn around. If I’m in an emergency the last thing I have time for is talking to the controller and it’d be the lowest priority task at that point.
Someone needs to read FAR 91.3(a) to that controller and make him repeat it back until he understands it. When an emergency is declared, it's the pilot's job to fly the airplane and the controller's job to give the pilot whatever he asks for unless it will wind up routing him through cumulo-granite, no arguments, no questions asked.
This wasn’t a private pilot VMC into IMC. This is an instructor. Vectors for the ILS 2 which he turned down was his out. The controller handed it to him. Obviously, he was not prepared to fly an approach in actual conditions. The sad part is, this was a training flight.
floydndaisy could be but we don’t know what he was dealing with in the cockpit. He just went thru probably a severe t storm downdraft. Flying at night in turbulent mic. Florida and Hawaii and tropical locales have severe cumulonimbus weather that happens fast. Maybe the student was freaking out, we just don’t know. The controllers job is still to assist especially in an emergency. If I was that pilot I would be filing a complaint with the FAA and the tower supervisor. It’s not the controllers job to make things more difficult in a potentially dangerous situation.
@@floydndaisy Put simply, you're full of prunes. Read Brett Leonard's comment and then think about whether you'd want a vector to an ILS under those conditions. I sure as hell wouldn't.
Besides, *you* need to read FAR 91.3(a) again. It's the controller's job to suggest options, but it's the pilot's job to fly the airplane in the conditions he's flying in right then. If the pilot says he can't do that, then the controller needs to shut up about what he thinks the pilot should do and give the pilot what he asks for..._now_.
Jay Maynard The controller cleared him for a visual approach with a right downwind entry when he had the field in sight. Did the controller really need to hold his hand for a simple visual maneuver? That’s private pilot stuff flying the pattern.
...but wouldn't it be illegal as the pilot to fly vfr with clouds between him and the airport. Sounds a lot easier to just ask for vectors. Why isn't the controller helping. We as pilots.are advised to refuse a visual clearance if there are clouds that will prevent it.
Didn’t ask for souls on board and fuel remaining 👀
Parliamentarian Also didn’t acknowledge the emergency. ATC is incompetent and is gonna get people killed.
He may have been trying to get information, but it sounded as though the pilot was task saturated when first declaring the emergency. I don't think he was expecting the attitude from ATC. The first time asking for vectors, in an emergency the ATC needs to immediately comply.
@@gamer34551 According to a post higher up, he was caught in a spiraling descent due to strong downdraft. So I'd say he had his hands pretty full yeah
Zero souls, 2 people though.
I would of asked for number of souls in the tower cause I would have gone postal
ATC: “Contact Maui tower.”
Pilot: “Thank Christ!”
"Declaring an emergency!"
"Hmmmm OK, let me know when you have Charlie."
"What are you sinking about?"
Give the weather
Really. Just give him the f-ing weather. He’s declared an emergency and is struggling to control his aircraft. Don’t make him look up and tune the frequency for the weather when you could just tell him in 5 sec.
@@hypsin HAH! I love that commercial.
Lol. Yeah, I could not believe that one either.
You’d think that ATC would have had a tap on the shoulder from a supervisor about 40 seconds into that mess.
Plot Twist: He was the supervisor
@@MasterMayhem78 everybody has a boss.
@@duartesimoes508 not the unemployed.
@@Make-Asylums-Great-Again In that case, the boss is hunger.
Yes you would think !!!!
The next time this controller speaks into a microphone, he should be asking, "Would you like fries with that?"
That made me LOL - well said!
I laughed so hard at this! 🤣
If that pilot were the drive-through customer, he'd want the window person to pull his car up for him....
With ketchup or mayo?
Man there goes my order of fries😂😂😂.
I still have no idea what all that attitude and passive-aggressiveness was from the controller. Even if the pilot up in the air is being a pain, it is the controller's job to maintain composure to get people down safely.
I've been watching plane channels for about 4 or 5 months now. Had the controller been XX, your OP would already be 10+ long with haughty reasons the ATC had attitude. But ATC is XY so the replies were crickets until now.
Four or 5 months of these channels, I know this to be true.
@@C.Church I am confused, you commented a month ago but I see hundreds of 1 year old comments talking about how aggressive the atc is?
Welcome to Maui, lots of uncalled for aggression and lazy employees, quality goes out the window here. It's not surprising to see this.
@@Benry1
If you read the threads, there are tons of posts shaming the pilot and defending the controller.
@@anti-ethniccleansing465 Yes. Because the pilot made a lot of mistakes
Wow. ATC is supposed to be there to help, not to insult and ignore
THIS pilot didn't even know what a visual approach was and refused to give the controller more information in regards to the weather, to better assist the pilot.
The pilot asked for a visual approach with vectors. The controller gave him that, and asked the pilot to report the airport insight. The pilot reported the airport insight. At that point the only thing the controller can do is clear the pilot for the visual, no further help is required, but the pilot then argued and complained they wanted more vectors and an altitude, AFTER reporting the airport insight... This is confusing. The pilot then stated that there were clouds. That's irrelevant, you reported the field insight so it's your job to avoid and keep the field in sight. If at any point you lose sight of the field, tell ATC and they can give further vectoring. The pilot didn't do this. He also refused to tell the controller the weather to better assist them.
Can’t believe a guy sitting in a chair on the ground is escalating the level of stress for a pilot flying in weather. Truly dangerous.
Since when does light winds, high visibility, no cloud ceiling, and large temp/dewpoint spread = bad weather? The pilot made a radio call saying he has the field in sight, and the controller cleared him for a visual and then the pilot got upset...
@@jaredsebesta2009 I believe the pilot said there were clouds above and below and he could only intermittently see the airport. He was in IMC conditions. Above, an FAA ATC said this was “painful to watch”
@@jaredsebesta2009 Lol if you think the pilot was the one upset you need to rewatch the video.
@@StSamples Not upset, rather frustrated, and rightfully so the pilot should be, this controller was an arse.
You are a fear mongerer. THE PILOT REPORTED LIGHT RAIN AND TURBULENCE NO CONTROL ISSUES? shame you're so lacking of intelligence.
This controller has ZERO place in this industry. I’m sure it’s made it on down the line, but I’m going to make sure and forward this because this guy is going to get somebody killed. I don’t think he had any idea how dangerous that situation was, the pilot certainly did. Kudos to him, he basically saved himself with good communication but had to wade through the controllers attitude to accomplish it. What a muppet, this profession has no place for agitated egos, especially in a low level IMC emergency.
Would love to hear the end of this too. Did the controller get sacked before he got someone killed?
"3927 contact maui tower"
Even I felt a sense of relief when he said that.
Surprise! TRACON and Tower are the same guy! Lol, jk
Compare this guy to the lady who helped that wee 17 yearl girl land her plane on one wheel a while back one extreme to another glad she dident get this guy that day she wouldent be here😨😨
I stumbled on that recording by accident. It was remarkable - especially the change in tone of the ATC as soon as the young pilot communicated the problem. That is what you want to hear when you are in trouble.
Do you have a link to the recording?
if that pilot had gotten this ATC she'd be dead
@@rapiddescent7633 RD, here is the link: th-cam.com/video/B229-KLudTo/w-d-xo.html what a brave pilot and exceptional ATC. Be well.
@@pspicer777 Thank you!
Worst situational awareness by a controller that I have ever seen. Contrast that with the pilot ( who is in a world of *&%$) who keeps calm and cool throughout. When he asks for a vector and altitude, don't argue---give it to him immediately. Outstanding piloting --not intimidated or distracted by the arrogant controller. Kudos to him.
He didn't ask for an altitude first, he asked for a vector. The controller told him to fly direct to the Maui VOR. THIS pilot didn't even know what a visual approach was and refused to give the controller more information in regards to the weather, to better assist the pilot.
The pilot asked for a visual approach with vectors. The controller gave him that, and asked the pilot to report the airport insight. The pilot reported the airport insight. At that point the only thing the controller can do is clear the pilot for the visual, no further help is required, but the pilot then argued and complained they wanted more vectors and an altitude, AFTER reporting the airport insight... This is confusing. The pilot then stated that there were clouds. That's irrelevant, you reported the field insight so it's your job to avoid and keep the field in sight. If at any point you lose sight of the field, tell ATC and they can give further vectoring. The pilot didn't do this. He also refused to tell the controller the weather to better assist them.
Declaring emergency due to weather conditions and then insisting on a visual approach - that is good situational awareness? 🙂
The ATC should be fired with no delay.
Early in my IR training I had a goosebump moment at night navigating out of terrain near Palm Springs. When I called up approach rather assertively asking for help and confirming my vectoring, the amazing ATC controller who at the time had her hands full with the “rush hour” of LAX arrivals immediately dropped everything and attended to my ‘out of the blue request.’ She even was the one who asked me if I’m declaring an emergency, in which by that time I was confident we were not. Nonetheless, the whole way back to KHHR all the subsequent SoCal Approach controllers held my hand including reporting to me weather at KHHR and thus not even requiring ATIS to clear me in for a visual. This video’s controller should take a masterclass from our amazing socal controllers who give more help to a NON-emergency pilot whilst juggling likely 40 airliners in and out of LAX.
Did your story take place after the Kobe thing?
Pretty bad when the pilot who's life you're endangering has to remind you to calm down.
You must not have met a manipulative person before. Just because someone tells you to “calm down” doesn’t mean you are the one acting out.
Note: I’m not saying the pilot was being manipulative, just saying that simply saying “calm down” to someone doesn’t mean you are the good guy or the one acting appropriately in the situation.
@@jediskywalker356 oh but he is acting out so what is your point?
@@jediskywalker356 Overall, I agree with you. In my experience, telling someone to calm down is one of the last useful things anyone could do to deescalate a conflict.
However, in the context of this case, the controller was being unnecessarily aggressive and demanding. That has to factor into any evaluation of who was doing right or wrong.
This is unbelievable. This controller needs to get his head checked. When he said "3700 is an incorrect altitude" his MO became pretty clear. Dude already declared an emergency due to WX. If I was this pilot I'd be happy to pull the tapes. Controller needs a different line of work.
Evan Henrich can’t believe I heard that either. The controller was insinuating that he was going to report the pilot for pilot deviation for being 300’ low after declaring an emergency while he is sitting safe and sound on his comfy chair staring at his radar screen eating Cheetos.
I've worked guys in weather emergencies before. Jumping in their $hit and distracting them from flying the plane is a good way to kill people. I wish I could have yanked that guy off the scope and plugged in instead.
night nomad - The Pilot was climbing to get to 4,000. My guess is that he would indeed have been at 3,700 at some point during the climb. The ATC didn’t give him time to finish his climb...
@@noreplieshere The plane was over the ocean at the time the controller questioned his altitude. So no, there was no danger of him hitting anything at 3700 feet. When you cross the shoreline and get closer to the airport, there is a mountain range off the the left wing, but it is several miles away. The airport is at an elevation of 54 feet and all the terrain around it and leading up to it is mostly at the same elevation.
@@noreplieshere the ATC gave that instruction, the pilot read it back correctly, and then the ATC immediately (within two seconds, look at the time code) told him he was at the incorrect altitude. I'm no pilot, but I doubt the plane can simply apparate 250' straight up. The controller was clearly looking for a fight during that whole exchange.
I want to hear a report on the official follow up on this.
Agreed
I'll vote for that. Would be interesting to see how these things wind up.
th-cam.com/video/KCCFNyx-E4Q/w-d-xo.html
74gear did this, turns out the pilot was giving mixed signals.
@@tawhneebaby ... and flew into very restricted areas.....
Obviously, the list of egregious things from this controller is endless, but the first thing I noticed is that he didn't give the pilot the info from the ATIS, he asked him to advise when he had it- DURING AN EMERGENCY!
I've been on VFR and IFR flights where the controller reads me most of the ATIS because his workload is light and he is being nice. And I haven't declared an emergency.
4:15 is the one that REALLY got me though because the controller is only speaking to serve his ego. He is making the pilot "wrong" for being 300 feet below the altitude he JUST assigned ("That is the incorrect altitude") because he has an attitude about the pilot TELLING HIM "Give me a vector and an altitude".
Do you know if he was fired? I have never ever ever experienced a rude egomaniac controller in Seattle or on the west coast. They are all SUPER nice ESPECIALLY if you declare an emergency. This is just crazy!
4:15 The pilot is a moron for descending when he doesn't have the airport in sight, and ATC is telling him he needs to climb, he wasn't very polite about it but he got the point across.
I mean usually they give you an altitude that is to keep you and everyone else safe. 300ft off is pretty far off especially when its low. That could put you in the path of a mountain, building, antenna, tethered balloon, other traffic. All sorts of reasons. The pilot gave no indication in the emergency declaration that the aircraft or the pilot was no longer going to be able to maintain altitude in normal conditions so a stern warning that you are sinking to get the pilots attention is merited and the pilot should be thankful for it.
He was not making the pilot wrong for being 300ft off. The pilot was just wrong for being 300ft off. Seems like you have an issue with the pilot taking responsibility for his own craft?
Sooo, I'm assuming "We'll talk on the ground." in Hawaii is the code for a "Knuckle sandwich".
If I was the pilot, I'd have taken a sledgehammer to the ATC's car and left a note apologising for landing on it.
😂👍🏻
A knuckle sandwich right in the mouth...
Maybe he just wants to give him a high five...in the face...with a chair.
aka False Cracks 😂
I am a flight instructor and an air traffic controller who teaches other controllers about how to respond to emergencies. CAVEAT: The views expressed are my one and are NOT official FAA policy. Based on the audio presented here, while the controller had a "right" to be confused about a couple of issues, there is no excuse in my opinion for the controller to berate a pilot in an emergency in this way. EVEN IF the controller believes that the emergency is faked in any way or that the pilot is somehow incompetent, that get's settled on the ground not in the air.
Yep, agreed. Retired ATC and instructor. The controller did a $hit job.
@@jumpmasterjm and so did the 'pilot'. All he had to do was ask for 'vectors to the ILS' and there would be nothing to discuss.
Or the controller could have said, "I'm giving you vectors to the ILS XX approach, fly heading YYY to intercept and maintain ZZZ until established..."
BOTH of the people in this event need to improve their aviation skills and JUDGEMENT.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut Based on my experience (which is admittedly unprofessional, consisting entirely of VATSIM), the best phraseology from the controller should've been to ask, "Are you able to accept vectors for the ILS Runway 2?"
@@philipmcniel4908 or better yet, "I'm going to give you vectors to intercept the ILS: Heading XXX, maintain Y,YYY until established..."
If someone is _clearly_ overcome by events and cannot keep their 'stuff' together, then it _may_ be best to give succinct and _safe_ commands for them to follow.
This pilot was _clearly_ in over his head, but he had the presence of mind to argue with the controller? Not the kind of guy I would want to fly with.
Is he a pilot, yes. Is he an aviator, not really.
@@stay_at_home_astronaut
It seems to me like it requires less presence of mind to argue with the controller than to just completely ignore the ATC's berating and lack of instructions and land on your own with the radio turned off in exasperation.
That ‘clipped’ tone the ATC has after the pilot tells him to take a deep breathe is so cringe. The ATC just makes himself sound like a petulant teenager.
Yessssss
Yeah but so does the pilot. Honestly.
I can't believe how calm that pilot was...
th-cam.com/video/KCCFNyx-E4Q/w-d-xo.html
So its ok for pilot to be provocative, not answer questions, and give "orders" to ATC. He clearly needs help getting down but questions ATC and presents attitude. Not very smart under the circumstances.
I would love to hear the conversation they had on the ground!
Now retired after 40 years in ground operations for a major airline. I was able to be the fly on the wall since the pilot would use my phone to call the tower. Lot's of interesting conversations after an incident. 99% of the time it was a civil discussion with a peaceful ending. In a few cases reports were filed, but not often. "We'll discuss this on the ground". Words to live by.
That controller is adding stress to a single pilot in an emergency. Hope the controller gets reported and is forced to charm school. Very dangerous!
Asking the pilot that just declared an emergency to get the ATIS?!
Does this guy even understand what an emergency is?
Not all emergencies are the same. You can have an emergency and still be able to do your job, like get ATIS. If you can't, you can ask ATC to give it to you. It's not uncommon.
@@erauprcwa when an emergency is declared its a fucking emergency. I don't care if you're in perfectly clear skies in a perfectly good plane. An emergency is an emergency
@@grren1782 So when you have a medical emergency you roll the trucks, foam the runway, and have everyone brace for impact in your 172 huh?
@@iflyc77
When, in a medical emergency, one pilot is incapacitated and his copilot himself may be delirious from lack of oxygen or similar, you still expect him to read ATIS and provide a PIREP?
@@roadent217 sure. I meant medical emergency with a passenger though. All the pilot has to day is unable, or standby if they are too task saturated at that moment. This guy just got all pissy
This reminds me of Grumpy, one of the ATCs at Vero Beach (KVRB). Arguably the most professional controller on site, but (probably because of his vast experience/professionalism) very grumpy when vague/unprofessional calls were made (mind you, KVRB is mainly a student environment), so a lot of people weren't exactly fond of him. I remember one of his outbursts after an Asian student had hit a bobcat with his propeller, keyed the mic and screamed: "WE HIT CAT! WE HIT CAT!".
Oh no
im not surprised you remember that
OMG I’m dying laughing right now. His sister must be on ground frequency.
My father knew a pilot in the RCAF who had also been a flight instructor for some young guys getting into the industry.
One day, as they were both flying circuits, doing touch and go’s, the tower started getting a bit aggressive on frequency with the student pilot. So, the instructor told the student pilot to request for a full stop landing, and requested the student pilot to stop on the runway near the tower.
The student pilot did so, and when he stopped, the flight instructor got out and walked from the runway directly to the tower, and gave the controller shit for pushing the student pilot around.
They never had that issue again.
TLDR: Don’t push new pilots around.
I sincerely doubt that happened.
@@bosshog8844 This was back in the 80s. The instructor was an at the time retired CF-104 pilot in the RCAF. The 80s were a different time.
@@bosshog8844 Listen to YKF and YPQ.
Cap
Don't know about the story but the TLDR- that pilot gave so many clues that he was green as all hell. Don't push new pilots around. It's life and death sometimes. You can't just decide it's not a real emergency and start loading up a new pilot who's struggling to fly. Unacceptable
Plane: I'm going to crash!
ATC: It's not my problem.
*Plane heading directly towards ATC tower*
Plane: Well... now it is~
ATC: i missed the part where that's my problem
We are missing the best part. The conversation on the ground
Preferably with video. Because there might be some flying fists involved...
@@mihan2d but did he give a vector for the fist to fly?
I want to caution some of you observers/ commenters about taking some of these pilot's attitudes expressed here into the airways. This is a clear example of abuse of service and Unnecessary use of emergency authority and assistance. Controllers do not know where your weather problems lie except for Pireps and evaluating weather conditions. I believe the spiral decent was pilot initiated and not meteorological in nature.. if you turn down the ILS and report the field in sight then it is up to you to do that contingent on being able to keeping it in sight. PILING ON unnecessary request in the guise of still being in an emergency is not what constitute the best use of the facility and services. Your baseline beliefs should be that the controllers are there to help and are formulating avenues or plan to assist. They are not a Pinata. Assertiveness should be appropriately and sparingly applied, this was an abuse of emergency assistance. Be careful piling on to the flavor of the mount with all these thumbs up and withy comments, this pilot clearly abused the ATC services
@@TH-cam.TOM.A Yeah it all sounds good except... Both pilots AND ATCs in the comments noted some of them know this particular guy and confirmed he's a butthole, from both perspectives.
@@mihan2d Commentors on social media; the equiilant of the salem witch trial, the only proof that i have to evaluate is the transcript, he sounds like a perfectionist but well intended.
For me the most difficult part of learning to fly was having to deal with the radio communications side of flying a plane. It can be a chore and took the fun out of it for me. I was always afraid I would say something wrong or make a mistake.
It's a common fear but honestly you're very rarely going to get critiqued or yelled at because of your speech precision on radio. I change up the order of my read-backs all the time. As long as the pertinent information is there and is accurate, ATC is not really going to give you too much grief. Don't let it stop you! :) - It also depends on what airports you frequent. ATC at Hartsfield-Jackson is going to have far less patience than ATC at a smaller municipal airport somewhere
i forgot the word "inbound" and looked to my instructor and he shrugged his shoulders and smiled like he would often do when he was not opening the door on landing ... so i told the tower " coming at you from the south at 4000' " everything when fine ....
Just remember fellas. They’re here to serve US (the pilots)!!! Not the other way around.
I’m relatively confident that the audio & video replay from this incident will become a mandatory training item for FAA controllers. The vast majority of us strive to provide a service in a professional manner, and I’m glad a majority of you pilots recognize this.
“Climb and maintain 4000” 2 seconds later- “I SAID 4000. 3700 IS INCORRECT!”
Ez TBL as if the plane 'teleports' outright
Right? Not to mention they could have different altimeter settings as well...
Yes, 3700 is not 4000’, you only allowed zero feet below 4000 and considering he’s incompetent pilot, disoriented, inaccurate altimeter sittings on a night flight ... perfect recipe for a disasters
@@aghandoor You do realise it takes time to climb right?...
@Hornet yes, and you should correct instantly, on final approach you’re allowed zero feet below assigned attitude and no more that 100’ above, on the other hand he’s making sure that local altimeter sitting is correct
By far the worst controller I’ve ever heard.
Thankfully the pilot did a lot of things right after declaring emergency, particularly holding his ground with approach.
Given a recent high profile crash highlighting what can go wrong in IMC there really is no excuse. I don’t say this lightly, but I hope that guy never has the privilege to control an aircraft again.
Even after that exchange, N3927 still was calling him sir and saying thank you, really shows who was the bigger man here.
Props to him for being that patient, if I'd just been in a spiral descent and ATC was treating it like it was no big deal, I think I would've snapped.
What about intermittent clouds didn't he understand? Cancelling his approach clearance after he declared an emergency is the biggest power trip and F you I've seen on this channel.
I didn’t hear the ATC cancel his approach clearance. What time did that happen?
@@anti-ethniccleansing465 4:07
A bigger man would have used the time reprimanding the ATC to instead give a pirep or more info about the emergency or the status of the aircraft or anything else more useful to the situation. Pilot was out of his depths.
Is there anyway to find out if their was any disciplinary action taken? I'd love some follow-up on this.
Likely not, most of the time unless it's a criminal offence, or he is fired, most internal punishments are considered private.
Listen for his voice transmitting from this location in the future.
@@noreplieshere what you said makes total sense and I agree. Thanks for your input.
It's Hawaii. This kind of behavior isn't unusual. No body would tolerate it on the mainland. But there, people in "authority" have a tendency to let the power go to their heads. I'm absolutely NOT surprised by this at all and absolutely nothing will be done about it. He'll probably even get a promotion.
night nomad are you that controller?
My best guess - the pilot DEMANDED vectors, not requested so ATC must've felt that somehow this pilot diminished his authority by giving him orders. And the way that this ATC dealt with 'declared emergency' is super-violation of every rules in these situation, hope the guy is in the elite of the unemployed now as he is a real danger, not the weather
Well, thats not how it works. The ATC doesnt have ultimate authority over the aircraft anyway. The PIC is the ultimate authority on the aircraft, and they do have the responsibility to disregard ATC instructions in the event they believe it to be the safest course of action. Not the option, not the choice - they are required by the law to maintain the safety of the aircraft, and if that requires disregarding instructions from ATC then they are compelled to do so.
After the event, it may be a question of fact whether disregarding the instructions was the safest course of action, however.
FAR 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.
(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.
choose right answer(s) :
a- atc don't believe in emergencies
b- atc don't want to work that day
c- atc was half sleeping
d-all of the above.
D
e) the coffee machine was broken that day
f) as in "fired" (for what the ATC should be)
D
D
This is insane, controller getting snippy and standoffish with a pilot in an emergency simply asking for help landing. Honestly unbelievable, and in IMC conditions like that truly terrifying
“Approach, 927, say when ready
to copy my phone number”
"I'm not ready to copy, I'm controlling!"
3:51 he is like judge Judy when someone says two different defenses
1:32 - 1:40 -- He goes from 4900 to 4500 in 8 seconds. That's a 3,000fpm descent. I'll accept his marginally annoyed tone given that he was on a truly wild ride that would've had most people losing their s*** one way or another.
That’s his heading
@@5hiftyL1v3a No, you're wrong. The 3-digit number below his callsign is altitude in hundreds of feet (e.g. 1000' = 010; 4500' = 045; 18,000' = 180 = FL180).
The two digit number is airspeed in tens of knots (e.g. 70 knots = 07).
Heading is not numerically displayed at all.
I'm a local pilot for that area. I'm glad that wasn't me needing help. The pilot did an excellent job staying calm
But maybe you can explaine me this.. why did he declared a emergency at all? He was not in a spiral descent, i heard no alarms and he gives information that there are clouds ABOVE him what has no value at all. He may talk calm but that guy was out of control. At one point he see the airport, the next second he needs a vector? I can feel the frustration of the atc. And also his suspicion why he asked the severity of the turbulences. That was in my opinion a pilot who was unsure and therefore he demanded someone holding his hand until he landed.
@@comfortableovertones makes sense. Thank you.
@@comfortableovertones okay i understand. Really makes sense bc when the pilot has a problem with air pressure or anything like that you literally have to explain them how to fly a plane. And a lost pilot at night may get scared and needs a hand. I get it, the atc should have made his complains once the plane is on the ground, but not be a A hole while he was in air.
Rude? Unhelpful? i'd say incompetent. Controllers must be calm and communicate clearly during an emergency. Just think of all the great examples on this channel of a controller calmly, professionally assisting the PIC in managing an emergency. I hope this controller received the follow up training and counseling necessary so they can be that professional controller we all need....or make the decision to pursue another career.
Dangerous. That guy can take a life in his career
Hell, he needs to be fired. He's not ATC material.
Wow, an emergency aircraft needing to tell a controller to take a deep breath and calm down? Yikes! Kudos to the pilot for keeping it together. Btw I’m assuming the emergency was VFR into IMC. The pilot could have clearly stated that but either way it’s not the controller’s prerogative to argue about the nature of the emergency and it should have been fairly obvious anyway.
Keven Guimarães IFR flight. Weather put him into a descending spiral....
@@THEEJuror13 I think the descending spiral was to get out of the cloud layer.
@Keven Guimaraes the pilot doesn't need to say anything other than I'm declaring an emergency. If ATC absolutely needs to know the reason for it they can do so when everyone is on the ground safe and you have all the time in the world. Until then it's utterly irrelevant.
@@aaronsuever2414 The spiral is indicative of someone losing control in IMC conditions and not being aware of it.
@@THEEJuror13 Does it show the spiral pattern on radar? I never saw anything there that would indicate a loss of control nor does the pilot declare a loss of control. With the altitude he's dropping it seems very much like a rapid controlled descent. He was pretty close to a Hawaiian island too, which is probably why he didn't want to begin his TOD while heading back towards the airport since he wouldn't know where the mountains were.
I'm happy to be corrected here just curious as to what makes you certain of that. Thanks
If that pilot was in a real emergency situation... he wouldn't have had all the spare time on hand to school the controller! His attitude was the problem! Stop encouraging bad behavior!
That pilot needs to decide if he flying VFR or IFR, let alone check the weather before takeoff. It's frickin' Maui folks, how hard can it be.
I was so disturbed by the action of this controller. I was very impressed with the Pilot's communication almost needing to make his emergency request but to also help the controller do his job which created a higher workload for the Pilot. The FAA should review this controllers action as I can say as a ATP over 12,000 hours my action would be to take legal action with a case that the controller failed his duties to assist in a emergency condition and compounded the workload of this Pilot. Completely inexcusable. For the Pilot Great Job I loved your comment we can talk on the Ground!!
This is the only correct take. Very easy to see in these comments who knows what they’re talking about and who doesn’t, from a fellow career airline pilot
The controller deserves prison time, loss of his job, and should be barred from working any other job relating to aerospace and aeronautics ever again. This was absolutely unforgivable.
@@RT-qd8yl What exactly did the controller do wrong? What law did he violate that requires prison time?
What disturbed you? The FAA should review you because if this disturbed you and you really are and ATP a lot of people are in danger flying with a pilot that cant hack it. The pilot at no point in the video helped the ATC do his job. Id challenge you to explain this in more detail. The pilot requested things from the ATC the ATC delivered those things. Generally when an aircraft declares and emergency the ATC asks for information from the pilot, this is pretty standard. Again, if you dont understand this or the idea of it disturbs you than please speak with your company and the FAA because you need further training for hundreds of lives are put in your hands.
When the atc said "do you got airport in sight or not?"
Then pilot says "well, I dont now."
That killed me lol. Just give the man vectors.
Well he fucking did though, didn't he? What do you think "visual approach" means? That there will be a magic lane amidst the clouds for ATC to vector you into? It doesn't.
@@jonashelmke2564 Settle down there cowboy. You're not a controller right? Please say your not.
That's not how it was stated. The pilot stated they had the field in sight. The controller doesn't have to provide vectors at that point.
@@erauprcwa exactly. does the pilot think ATC is standing on top of Haleakala with fucking NVGs looking out for clouds?
@@erauprcwa
During an emergency, the ATC doesn't have to support the pilot to land safely on the ground? What's the point of declaring an emergency, then?
Maybe the ATCs should put in Simulators with an emergency to see how unhelpful and dangerous arguing with emergency aircrafts is.
That is part of basic training no need to go into a simulator to know that
We are.
In UK the ATC had to also be pilots (current or prior). Not sure if this still a requirement, but it certainly was when I visited Manchester ATC via a friend. This guy seemed like he was relaxed but frustrated all at once, like his Zen routine, or spliff was interrupted
@@CameTo
He is also in the US. We don't have that requirement. I'm surprised. The people on Maui is usually more laid back.
Robert Horsfall this is not the case. There is no requirement to be or have been a pilot to be an air traffic controller in the UK.
When this guy is in the tower, the weather is cloudy with a chance of aluminum.
Underrated comment
The conduct of this ATC is APPALING and dangerous. I truly hope he is no longer working in this field.
Yikes. I can’t imagine how new pilots would react to this controller.
k, nevermind, I will just do in into the next airport, thanks for nothing :roll_eyes:
Well, they wouldn't survive this landing.
"Okay, go fuck yourself, I'm turning this off." I would not need that extra stress.
Guy is clearly a new pilot, he is legit talking crazy...vectors are for when you don’t have a visual, the pilot was talking nonsense.
@@tidritblag9877 he didn't have visual, you know, on account of the rapidly developing weather strong enough to shunt his left wing down 50 degrees and force him into a temporarily unrecoverable spiral descent. you're the idiot.
my advice if I was in a spiral descent with turbulence and rain, any questions atc has for me can wait. Aviate above all else. The pilot was probably feeling pretty rattled after the situation, dealt with it well. Felt like a really odd interaction listening to it. Glad they made it back okay, serious turbulence in imc in a small GA plane is no joke.
@@darekm6859 I disagree, when a pilot declares an emergency it doesn't feel like a good time. He can ask all the questions when the plane is safely landed. It's the pilots call on this one, and the ATC is there to ASSIST the pilot, not interrogate. Sure some pilots might take advantage of calling in an emergency to get priority for instance, but questions should not be asked when I pilot possibly already has a ton of workload.
there is no need for the childish behaviour the ATC is showing because he doesn't get his way.
Pilot was the issue here lol
Wow. ATC has anger issues. The man declared an emergency.
Because he didn’t get a shortcut direct to a fix that he wanted.
This is appalling. The most unprofessional ATC I've ever heard in my life.
The controller is safe on the ground while the pilot is up in the air in trouble. Controller needs to be calm, helpful, and reassuring even if the pilot is rattled.
Request vectors to the controller's building. :) Pilot not so safe on the ground anymore.
That can't be your real name.
I am an ATC and this attitude was a real embarrassment for our professionals...just don't forget, just as in the pilots herd...we also have our rotten apples... sorry again.
I heard this one on another channel and it changed the context where the pilot had no real emergency and was just forcing atc to treat him like he was. He just didn't want to fly in the rain. I think it was on 74Gear.
747Gear had no idea of the real details of the incident and he didn’t mention any what you that since I just watched it. Just another mediocre airline pilot.
@@JediOfTheRepublic The guy was not in a spiral descent and was a complete amateur pilot. 74 gear is actually a very experienced pilot. But please tell us your expertise sir….
It doesn’t matter either way. The pilot declared a mayday. It’s not for atc to determine the legitimacy of the mayday and base their helpfulness off of that assumption.
@@JimCar71 ATC did not give him attitude until the pilot kept barking orders at him. Pilot was cleared for visual approach. Then the pilot says he needs vectors. You don’t need vectors for a visual approach. Pilot was giving mixed signals and acting like he knew the terminology when in reality he had no clue what he was saying. That was not an emergency and way to clog up the airwaves.
Incredible. I got more help than I needed with partial power loss on a checkride than me or my DPE asked for and the only question asked was souls and fuel on board.
"3700. That altitude is incorrect." Controllers attitude was incorrect.
Indeed, the inbound emergency has priority. The controller needed only state, "I'm showing you at 3700" to assist the pilot in maintaining safe flight.
@@darekm6859
Precision on the part of the controller, laxity on the part of the pilot. The pilot's in an emergency; ATC isn't.
The pettiness and sarcasm in the controllers voice after being damn near incompetent makes my blood boil
To be fair, this is Hawaii, its quite probable these two had history before. There are pilots who have declared dozens of emergencies in the air, and ATCs don't like that. Don't KNOW that's what happened here, but I have heard ATCs and pilots get into tiffs for petty reasons before.
Needs his nose adjusted 010 to the left. The controller? Yep yep
@@fortusvictus8297 i don’t believe this particular pilot actually did, but I now a LOT of other pilots filed numerous reports and had incidents with him.
@@fortusvictus8297 yeah it is a short distance flight, 3 or 4 times a day. They for sure did have some history.
I was hoping he was going to ask for a vector again after the 2nd clearance for visual approach. The controller would have exploded!!!
omg! listening to this increases my blood pressure!
Kudos to that pilot - kept his cool!
Curious to know, is it ever appropriate for a pilot to request a different ATC person?
This controller has no business in ATC
I think the controller did fine...
@@erauprcwa Thank god you're not a controller!
@@erauprcwa Do you even know what an airplane is?
Great as always. Thanks for doing these. Not sure about this one.
I was enraged listening to this. It’s this mans’ life! Help him.
Actually two peoples lives. Pilot was with a student doing ifr training
@@tramlink8544 Three lives. The student was pregnant. (I know the pilot.)
What would you like the ATC to do different? What could the pilot have done different to be better as well? Since PIC is ultimately responsible for the aircraft and occupants.
I really hope this gets investigated (which since it was a declared emergency it should) and that controller is reprimanded/finds another line of work. He seemed so arrogant and well, like an asshole. That pilot could've suffered some severe consequences as a result of the controller's ineptitude. Wow. I'm so glad he made it safely to the ground.
Agree
The CONTROLLER's ineptitude? Pretty sure it was the pilot on an IFR flight plan that claimed to lose control worthy of declaring an emergency because they flew into light turbulence and IMC. "Get me out of this!" "Uhhhh, ok. Fly heading 090?" Controllers can't see clouds and turbulence you know... I can't believe all of these stupid comments
@@iflyc77 That's besides the point. This has more to do with the attitude of the controller which was completely unnecessary and made an already dangerous situation, much worse. He discussed things on an open freq that should have waited until the pilot called the tower after he landed.
Why someone would defend this guy makes no sense. You don't have to be a pilot to see how his attitude is inappropriate and unprofessional.
@@AmyAnnLand If there is weather conditions severe enough out there that warrant a loss of control emergency the controller needs to know about that in order to keep other aircraft from experiencing it. Severe turbulence, tornado, bean stalk stretching into the stratosphere - whatever. Other pilots should probably avoid that. Then the controller was obviously confused because the conditions were nothing that any half way proficient instrument pilot would write home about. The pilot wasn't giving out any information - much less the kind that would help him and the controller couldn't get it out of him. They were both unprofessional, but the pilot started it.
@@iflyc77 "but the pilot started it". How old are we? I think we can cut the pilot some slack due to the nature of the emergency. I'm not saying the pilot doesn't have fault here, but I've seen many of these situations where the nature of the emergenct not immediately known but the controller acts much more professionally and does not make the situation more difficult. It doesn't matter who started it, and even if the pilot wasn't forthcoming with information (or didn't know yet) it is no excuse for the ATC's attitude. He wasted time discussing things that should wait until the pilot is on the ground.
That controller needs his ass handed to him. An emergency is declared, get the plane on the ground. As a retired controller if one of my guys pulled that crap I'd personally pull him from position. What's wrong with possible vectors to an opposite runway, let him fly that and once visual and clear of clouds clear for a visual. The pilot did a good job and should never of had to deal with that poor service
He called the airport in sight, controller cleared him for a visual approach to get the aircraft on the ground? I can't believe all of you people in the comments wanting to kill the controller over this.
@@iflyc77 I think you're missing quite a bit here. He asked for ATIS for a pilot experiencing an emergency. He questioned the pilot on weather conditions, hinting that it wasn't a real emergency. He refused to give vectors after the emergency was declared. Then got the shittiest attitude ever when the pilot called him (correctly so) unhelpful.
The moment you're talking about was really just the final straw and even if the pilot was rude about it, he's still in an emergency aircraft. The controller should have just given him the vectors when he asked for them.
SFMC 98 He didn’t ask for the ATIS, he said C is current. Not advise you have C
@@iflyc77 He literally says at 2:25 "advise you have information Charlie"
Paul Hood The pilot was offered the ILS and was obviously not able to fly if for whatever reason. That would have reduced the workload considerably. I don’t have to tell you the requirements for a visual approach which is what he was basically looking for. What’s sad is this was a training flight. The pilot’s IFR skills and phraseology obviously need work. “Left turn heading 090...did you want that left or right”.....
BREAKING NEWS ! pilot in emergency situation bravely rescues ATC controler in distress !
Just give the man the damn vectors!
He did... Then the pilot said he had the airport/beacon and was cleared for the visual, as requested. Then the pilot got mad and wanted more vectors. You cant say you have visual and then want more vectors, then yell at the controller because there's clouds... as if the controller knows what the weather is, after you've already stated that the reported weather is not actual and refused to give a PIREP to notify the controller of the change in weather.
@@erauprcwa His job is to help the pilot as much as possible, not to be an ass. This is what you don't understand.
@@FlourescentPotato In what ways did he not help the pilot? He gave the pilot everything he asked, with very little information. When the pilot gave conflicting information, the controller, probably not in the most professional way, but he was frustrated, asked the pilot what they wanted, after the pilot stated something that conflicts with proper protocol... (Requesting a visual approach, says they have the visual, then proceeds to berate the controller for clearing them for the visual).
@@erauprcwa are you the controller in this video?
@@jme_a Instead of throw away facetious comments, can someone please explain why I'm wrong? I'm legit fascinated by this incident and I think it's a scenario that we can all learn from.
"We can fight on the ground" Affirmative 927, bare knuckles in sight 👀
Definitely not the person you want when you need help
I once got caught in weather/TS in an AH-1 in SC. Of course the AC was not equipt for IMC. I called Beaufort MCAS. At first they were telling me to fly to so and so inersection/VOR yada yada. I told them I have a compass, VSI and airspeed. They were very patient and got me on approach to the sctuve just as the storm was overhead and sun was setting. As i finished my approach a bolt of lightening hit a runway light beside me. They rapidly said " hover taxi speed at your descretion to other side of the airfield, anywhere!😅 Great Devil Dog ATC. Saved my Air Cav rump. Semper fi!
Hope that controller was fired!
Really wish the outcome of this was known. This controller should have been immediately fired. Holy passive aggressive & dangerous!
What did he do that was wrong? He did everything the pilot asked of him. The pilot failed to understand what a "visual approach" was and refused to give any information of the emergency.
Even giving a frequency change is questionable: The pilot reported airport in sight, and was somewhat calm, but in most cases, and definitely with a panicked pilot, you would have him remain on your frequncy to avoid having him switch to an incorrect one, and then lose communication. If necessary, you switch everyone else so it's just controller/pilot. The controller has direct communication with the tower, and could have relayed tower instructions.
I'm on the side in this one that the controller was less than helpful. It sounds like the pilot was not instrument rated or if he was got rattled by the turbulence, IMC conditions, etc. Once he declares an emergency and asks for help, the controller should have been giving him the ATIS right away once the pilot said he did not have the ATIS. The pilot stated several times that the airport and beacon were intermittent because of the clouds between them. If you are rattled and just trying to get yourself and family or passengers down safely, the last extra-load on your plate that you need is a controller arguing with you in a critical phase of flight. And once this controller got butt-hurt, he immediately became less helpful and began chastising the pilot for a minor altitude deviation while he had declared an emergency. I got in some turbulence that was not forecasted a few years back where I was literally thrown around the sky for 10 minutes and if I hadn't done so much actual instrument training around that time, could have been incredibly alarming. Non-pilot ATC controllers should be required (or at least strongly encouraged) to get at least 15 hours of flight training in small aircraft before being certified as a controller. I'm guessing this controller would be curled up in a ball on the floor sucking his thumb in this circumstance. One of the Chicago area DPE's remarked recently that the shortage of controllers have led to the system allowing some very low-quality controllers to become certified, but I think the Chicago Area controllers are some of the best around. I had a well known controller in the western Chicago suburbs mix up the N-numbers on two planes on crossing runways 7,000ft away from each other, resulting in him having an aircraft "line up and wait" on runway 26 just as I was 50 ft from touching down on runway 26. I heard him mix up the numbers and looked immediately down and to the left and saw the plane in time as it was pulling straight in front of me. I went around and everything worked out, but this was not the 1st time this kind of stuff happened.