*Listening to this was both funny and frustrating!!* Why this confusion for a flight which is intended to go directly to the east and cross the pond towards Europe?
VASAviation - probably because KSEA causes tons of ground stops and other massive congestion delays for KBFI due to the huge traffic volumes and geographic overlap between the two.
Random Acts of Video I think the entire point is that they deliberately filed it wrong to try and make an end run around the regulations. And that made life hell for the guy trying to manage the weird airspace at BFI.
UK PPL here. That pilot should have picked up his route clearance before departure. Sounds like he was trying to shortcut the system by departing VFR in an aircraft unsuited to the traffic conditions. My guess is he was being pressured into cutting corners by a spoilt rich kid in the back, but at the end of the day it’s the captain’s responsibility. He caused unnecessary chaos for others, and demonstrated unprofessional behaviour and poor airmanship. A disgrace to the usually high professional standards of UK and EU aircrew.
I had always wondered how SeaTac and BFI managed to avoid traffic conflicts when their runways are almost parallel and running into each other. Turns out, they don't 🤷🏼♀️
Several mistakes: 1) ground didn't relay the plan to tower. 2) pilots didn't verify plan with tower. 3) pilots should've questioned the fact that they were given right closed traffic rather than a VFR departure on course. 4) pilots completely hosed the right traffic instruction. They were told to turn right based and botched it (overlying the final, violating the SEA bravo interfered with the SEA south departures). What a mess, all of it avoidable. Very interesting video....could make for excellent training. So many assumptions on top of assumptions, and missed clues.
Tower appeared aware of the plan to take off VFR and remain in the traffic pattern. It is so weird for that kind of plane that they asked to confirm and the pilot verbally confirmed every aspect of that plan. The pilot did not say he planned to zip around in the pattern of highly congested airspace in a G650 or whatever at 1500 feet while trying to pick up his transoceanic clearance. If he had told that to tower, they would have flat out denied him. It was an insane plan on the part of the pilot.
I fly with an Aerial survey company, as a LEO not a pilot. We fly around Washington DC every year taking updated photos for maps. One year we flew into restricted airspace (P-56) and got the dreaded, "Be prepared to copy FAA control number." Pilot I was flying with had Interviews coming up for a Commercial airline and was nervous as could be. We landed and called, luckily it was just a learning moment and he didn't get anything put on his record. The FAA people we spoke to were pretty decent about the whole thing. We were 8000 AGL and had been in constant communication with ATC so no flight back with fighter jets or anything.
This interaction should be used as an example of how a Captain, First Officer or GA pilot should always maintain there composure when speaking to ATC. Regardless of the situation, An ATC’s job is to provide a safe, orderly flow of traffic. ATC controllers are human, so frustration and anxiety can creep into their brain as well. The pilot handled the complete interaction perfectly by not taking anything personal. Well done, sir!
What are you talking about? The pilot totally mislead the controller and asked for pattern work but only told him he wanted his cross oceanic clearance once he was about to bust airspace. Totally failed to let him know that he wouldn't be able to land at all let alone beat up the pattern. Literally tied the controllers hands. Sure this dude was cool as a cucumber but he totally boned the controller in the process.
@@mikey554 Yep. There is another aviation blog which posted this flight and explained what happened. A private jet trying to depart SEATAK for an overseas flight might have to wait for an hour or more to receive an IFR clearance. So the pilot pulled a fast one: Got VFR clearance instead, and by using the term "downwind leg" clearly suggested to the ATC that he was intending to land. Once in the air, he made his intentions more clear by requesting an inflight IFR, which is not normally done, according to the other aviation blog. When the ATC told him to land, he then discloses that he's overweight (due to the fuel needed to fly to Athens, presumably). So the ATC is stuck. Not really very professional.
I am a corporate pilot: what this pilot did is completely irresponsible. As the PIC it is your responsibility to call in your flight plan with enough time to get a clearance. I typically file it over breakfast or in a taxi; by the time I’m in the jet 1 hour later it’s ready. For lack of 2-5 minutes of work, this guy endangered hundreds of lives.
Copied an explanation from elsewhere: "The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controlled did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to reland. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to it’s heavy weight and minimum speed."
Eh, if the passengers were pressuring the pilots to take off and shortcut the process in the first place, they deserve what they got. Besides, "max bank" in a business jet is _not_ a sporty or aerobatic maneuver. The folks in back might have been spilling their drinks but its not like they were getting tossed around. :-P
@@bgribbz VistaJet is the kind of company that will get you a transatlantic flight on a private jet with less than a days notice. The cheque writers are the passengers. These are the kind of people who think their time is too valuable and they find themselves too important to have to wait on such things as "picking up IFR clearance on the ground". From their own website "...146,000 flights, 367,000 passengers ..." or about 2.5 passengers on the average flight. I can't be bothered to look up how many passengers KLM, BA, Emirates or Quantas haul around the place, but I doubt that they'll average about 2.5 passengers per flight.
@Zaphod Whiskers Ummm earth, naturally. No the passengers DO NOT write the checks, they simply pay a company, and said company writes the pilots checks... you seem a little butthurt for some reason....are you a pilot that got fired by a check writing passenger or something?
So I'm gathering from everyone else's comments, but tell me... is this what happened? 1 - Pilots had IFR but refiled because their initial runway was no-go due to performance issues 2 - new IFR sat a little too long with ground and didn't make it to the tower in time 3 - pilots took off VFR assuming the IFR was in the tower and shortly to be approved 4 - tower tried to keep them in VFR traffic but the plane was unable due to configuration 5 - pilots assumed tower knew what they wanted and tower assumed pilots were wanting something else 6 - nobody had a good day, but paperwork was minimal
Nailed it. I knew there was more to the story because as a pilot flying a 737, he had a lot of experience flying out of airports across the world. He isn't going to wake up one day and say "F*ck it. Let's make up our own rules today." Plus, there had to be a reason for the Tower to think he was trying to land right after take off. What a complete cluster.
Wasn’t there a clue in the transmissions between ATC and the pilot : “pattern altitude and downwind leg”. Surely that would have indicated someone staying in the circuit.
@@JH-qqqqqiim because they were trying to pull a fast one and file an airborne flight plan and depart from a vfr flight but they had not reckoned on the amount of traffic inbound to more than one airport n their immediate vicinity nor had they reckoned on the controller not giving them an immediate IFR handover as the controller was trying to keep everyone alive as pop up traffic just kept arriving after pop up traffic ( well pop up with regards to the vista jet crew) and all the crew would have liked to do was blast off into the night talking to the IFR controller but the local ATC had given them a southerly escape route with a nice IFR handover but they still didn't realise that close proximity shit was happening all around them and the local ATC controller was trying to keep everyone alive until such times as they were clear to the south out of the way of the impending traffic. The comment here about can ATC handle traffic into both airports is "Yes" but not with impromptu traffic flying the circuit but not flying the circuit under vfr requiring IFR departures and not actually landing or going around.......?! Somebody somewhere didn't get an IFR slot departure when still on the ground (probably due to the mass of traffic inbound) so the crew thought let's go into the circuit vfr and then switch to IFR and fly away. Had there been no traffic inbound, at their height, and something like 2 am local then maybe that would have worked well. But it wasn't and it didn't. Messy and embarrassing. They might, might have tried a vfr flight to Greece at a low altitude, as in low like 1,000 ft and then headed off to Greece and then when out of the traffic zone (and the traffic) then pick it up with the IFR boys and get a clearance and a level. Personally I would have let them blast off to an oceanic area under vfr and let them file an airborne flight plan but I am not a controller and he was trying to keep them alive and separated from the traffic there were in. It's a lodda fun. The tiny mistake was to vouch to stay in the circuit, I suppose they could not go off into the night under VFR as there maybe no VFR at night!!
"868 requesting departure the the Northeast" might have saved a lot of trouble. Tower doesn't care what happens after you leave, so just fly VFR for a couple minutes to get away from the obvious misunderstanding going on here.
Because the tried to pull a fast one, getting airborne ahead of their slot and once airborne, demanding their IFR traffic slot which hadn’t been assigned yet.
@@skydive1424 it was explained better in another comment. Basically they filed for IFR but needed to take off in the opposite direction as filed due to their weight. They were cleared to take off VFR and transition to IFR but the tower never got this information. Goes to show how such a tiny bit of miscommunication can become so dangerous
@@12b_engineer he's right, ground didn't tell the tower it was an IFR departure, they departed VFR off a non-active runway for performance reasons but tower assumed they were VFR. That's not the pilot's fault.
Correct, the channel owner probably couldnt tell difference of a Gulfstream which have oval windows and a Global. The bizjets are so hard to tell from looking at them.
Is it me or did the ATC fuck it all up? Even I knew the 868 was departing. Why did the ATC want to land him??? Yeesh. I can't believe in 2021 with all the computerized technology we have they still haven't figured out how to automate departures and landings.
Arrogance. Tower wanted to teach a lesson to the VistaJet, because tower thought VistaJet shortcutted a departure with a VFR clearance. Turns out no lesson needed to be had since tower was wrong in that assumption. Conclusion: tower was an asshole that day.
If you have flown this area it is pretty obvious that you cannot extend the downwind leg by four miles and stay out of Rentons airspace - as was instructed by the tower. The airports are so close together that a normal downwind leg is not possible even if you don’t extend it. You have to keep it really tight and fly a heading that closes with the runway. If you then turn base at this point you fly straight through the centreline and into Seatac’s airspace. Also, it is really obvious that the aircraft is on an IFR flight because they are using a flight number as their callsign. If they were flying VFR they would have used their tail number. So a little common sense might have been applied by the tower. The tower clearly did not have their details and should have asked before releasing them and the pilots should have confirmed he knew what they were doing but that can be a little hard sometimes as typically you don’t get a friendly response these days when you question things.
This whole thing was caused by ground not telling tower or departure that this was an IFR flight. The runway change was for safety. The pilot however could have made things easier by explaining he had IFR clearance and had no intention to fly patterns! Sometimes standard ATC doesn't cover what was obviously a misunderstanding. The controller might have wondered why a fully loaded Corporate jet would want to do pattern practice! The clue was in the pilot repeatedly telling the controller he was fully fuelled and could not do tight turns. But equally all the pilot needed to have said was that he correctly filed an IFR plan and at the very least needed vectors out of the area!
I am not sure the Vistajet pilots had IFR clearence, because they refused their original IFR clearence, and never received an amended IFR clerence for runway 32L (as it was restricted for self-separating VFR traffic). Ground/Delivery is not authorized to negotiate changes in flight plans on behalf of the tower or departure ATC units, so expecting Ground to tell Tower what to do is a misunderstanding how ATC works. Ground/Delivery cannot re-plan or override the clearences/restrictions from departure/approach/area control by itself.
How is this ATC's fault? He squawked VFR and took off. He was trying to jump the line to get his IFR clearance by doing in mid-air. In busy airspace thats not always guaranteed. I've heard people doing this when I flew KLAX a lot and people would be denied their IFR its just too busy for clearance to be doing that.
The Vistajet had the stupid idea of taking off VFR, picking up his IFR clearance in route, and then flying IFR. Had he picked up his IFR clearance before taxiing, that never would have happened. But he’s super special, so he can do his own thing and forget everyone else!
ATC fault, no real fault of Vistajet at all. Thank heavens the pilot was so calm and steady. But to be fair, it's horrendous airspace and ATC have a massive amount to do. Such congestion shouldn't be so common, but that's the way in some places. The "I want" culture in spades.
Well that was a complete balls up by ATC. Had them conducting a right base into on coming traffic lol wtf. Then no suggestions from the Captain on vista686 to make left turn or anything? Surprised the vista686 didn’t question what atc was thinking with the downwind departure and right turn after take off from 32L. Why not just request a VFR departure hdg to intercept outbound track and just maintain 1500ft till clear of the airfield then pick you your ifr clearance with you request for climb? The 1500ft requirement call from ATC would’ve been the trigger for me to question things at the holding point. What a shmozzel
So here are some explanations to understand who did what and why : -TWR asks the aircraft to squawk VFR and to confirm their intentions : right traffic pattern The crew confirmed and never questioned. TWR kept on giving pattern instructions, the crew still don't question anything. -The crew did not pick up their IFR clearance on the ground (which is standard worldwide, especially if your IFR Flight Plan starts at your departure airport). -To my understanding, BFI is a VFR TWR. VFR Towers are not allowed to give radar vectors. They can give a direction to fly (e.g., eastbound turn), a suggested heading (e.g., fly suggested VFR hdg of 350) but no vector unlike the approach. -When an IFR traffic is ready to depart AFTER it has receiced its IFR departure clearance, on a VFR Towered airport, both the approach and the tower need to coordinate. The IFR aircraft is sometimes held on the ground, waiting for the approach to "release" the aircraft ("hold for release" procedure). So here is the situation for this video : there is an aircraft, which is intending to fly IFR, which hasn't received its IFR departure clearance, and which is already airborne. Let's imagine the level of coordination between the tower and the approach now required...
Yea very well explained btw! The only time you'd pick up clearence in the air In Australia is departing out of class G airports such as avalon, essedon, moorabin etc if tower is not currently online but it'd be something like this "Melbourne approach good afternoon VHTEA is an IFR cirrus sr22 taxies moorabin for bendigo 2 pob" "TEA Melb apch sqwack 3604 no reported ifr traffic report ready at the holding point" *some times passes* "TEA ready at RWY 18" "TEA make right crosswind departure climb 4000 report airborne" "TEA airborne passing 2000 for 4000" "TEA your cleared to bendigo via direct climb FL130"... It's really all coordination
@@HyroAUS In the US, if you depart from an untowered airport (or outside of the operating hours of the tower), you would usually pick up your IFR clearance by phone (with a possible time limit or some kind of restriction). In theory, you can pick it up in the on the Approach/Center frequency too for a reason or another, but it's increasing everyone's workload, especially in busy airspaces like in this example
@@nathanvermeulen8392 oh wow I've never heard of that before, pretty cool, you can always depart OCTA as long as your vfr and out of an uncontrolled airfield down here and call airborne or even just remain OCTA aslong as your outside of the MVA and MSA and are monitoring approach if within 150nm of a major class C airport or centre if not,
In Class D airspace they absolutely can give you vectors but cannot use the radar for sequencing. Things must work a bit differently to the rest of the world in the US. To be fair I haven't flown VFR in probably a decade. I know from my charter days in Australia and South Africa you absolutely can file IFR airborne and I've heard VFR traffic receiving IFR clearance often as well. Odd that you can't in the US. I wouldn't expect to receive it from Tower or Departure but there would have to be a Centre frequency that he could.
What the hell is going on here..why did he takeoff vfr and fly around at 1500ft and then tell them he's going to Athens..am I missing something here?? His passengers must be loving this
getting an IFR release can take longer in busy airspace. getting your ifr clearance in the air is a way around that. but doing that for a trans-oceanic clearance? that's stretching it. the controller was pissed and rightfully so.
ElvianEmpire In a Bravo airport, almost certainly clearance is required to leave the airspace. (Including VFR departures). Usually you’ll hear “VFR departures contact clearance delivery” on the ATIS. The only exception is aircraft remaining in the pattern since they aren’t leaving and don’t need to be sequences. They’re under positive control from the tower. So a VFR departure out without clearance likely isn’t legal here.
@@RomansFiveDotEight - I got my initial private pilot's license at BFI. You can depart VFR just talking to the tower. But because you have SEATAC just a few miles to the west and Renton just a few miles to the east, it is INCREDIBLY tight airspace and there are very specific corridors you must fly. These corridors are narrow, but with a modicum of preparation and careful attention to landmarks you can do it no problem. Student pilots manage this several times a day at BFI, flying about 15 miles E to go practice maneuvers, then flying back into BFI airspace to practice landings. These Jet Jokers obviously did _not_ understand the airspace or the requirements for flying VFR properly out of BFI. Their sloppy maneuvering is a shameful display that demonstrates their lack of understanding (or disregard for) the incredible amount of air traffic surrounding BFI - all of it flying at a similar altitude. The airport has pamphlets in just about every FBO and business around the airport that explains these corridors and procedures! And again: If student pilots can understand this stuff, it ain't rocket science. Although it still would've been a bit shady, they could have departed VFR and flown at a low level to the north or the south (through the defined corridors underneath SEATAC airspace), then climbed up once clear of the Class B airspace and dialed up ATC on the phone or the radio to get their IFR clearance. Instead they deliberately misled the BFI Tower by stating that they were going to just make a couple of pattern flights around the airport. Their initial radio calls clearly set expectations with ATC that they were just doing a quick flight. But then *after* screwing up the pattern and obviously having problems remaining in the proper airspace, they started asking for IFR clearance from the Tower (not the right guys to ask in any case) all while the controllers are still dealing with the aftermath of their poor maneuvering *and* while they are still posing a possible threat to the other airplanes in the immediate vicinity. That controller was perfectly justified in telling them to go to hell (i.e. land the plane).
Whoa! This makes no sense. This Vista jet took off and then expected to get IFR clearance to another country while on departure?! Why didn’t he get his IFR clearance before taxing like everyone else? Lol wow. It’s not like this was an uncontrolled airport
@@ForeverMrZaphaell What kind of communication break down? So the takeoff briefing was "we are 10000 pounds above the landing weight and let's do a traffic pattern."
He probably would've gotten what he wanted, if he'd just asked for a VFR departure to the east or north, and then asked for flight following, and then asked for IFR clearance from Center while giving his VIP passenger a flyby of Snoqualmie Falls...
blake 1. Busy airspace, tracon spitting out instructions with hardly any space to check in, so you have to wait. 2. While waiting, you’re inside a busy airspace with no established separation services, so you have to focus outside, not inside in writing down clearances.
@@philipmcniel4908 See the comment near the top of the video which explains what happened. It appears the pilot received IFR clearance to Athens from Ground and a flight plan filed, accordingly. Then for reasons explained, a different runway then originally anticipated was used for takeoff, which required a VFR departure. All of this was discussed between the pilot and Ground, and approved. Ground did not relay enough info to the Tower which led them to believe the plane was attempting to reland. Then chaos ensued...
Lot of questions here about how and why, so here is my take as a 30 year veteran air traffic controller in Chicago. Pilot files a flight plan for Athens, and then calls for clearance. ATC gives ground delay for possibly hundreds of different reasons. Pilot, or pax don’t like the delay so pilot decides to get around it by departing VFR under the mistaken idea that he will be given IFR clearance once airborne. In this case probably tried to use the rouse that they were staying in the pattern, this may have been because the entire airport was stopped for all outgoing traffic, or conditions outside the immediate area were IFR. ATC is not required to issue IFR flight plan to airborne VFR flights, and it’s highly unlikely tower guy could do it anyway. If VFR aircraft encounters IFR conditions a radar facility can provide IFR control but are in no way required to give a requested IFR route or destination and would not do so if they couldn’t for any reason. I have had pilots do this very thing in the center environment. Ground stopped to XYZ airport so pilot departs VFR to avoid ground stop then tries to activate flight plan. This could have, and should have gone like this Pilot: we can’t land for 5 hours Controller: roger, you are cleared to BFI via direct “point” intersection, “point 3 arrival”. Climb and maintain 7k hold at “point” as published expect further clearance in 5 hours. Pilot can’t do anything but cancel IFR request or request a destination that he can be cleared to.
As a private pilot, I don't understand why doing this in a center environment would be a problem. I always pick up my ifr clearances in the air unless a vfr departure is unsafe, and I've heard that controllers actually prefer it that way as long as you are able to continue VFR as until they can work you into the flow. Obviously what this guy did is very different. I'd never try to cut a line by circling the airport "vfr" to force out a clearance. I'm talking about a normal VFR see-and-avoid departure, upgraded to IFR once safely away from the congested airport environment.
Its notable that the initial takeoff is for runway 32L, and after that all traffic seems to be routing in on southbound runways. BFI and SEATAC are so close together that BFI runway direction always follows SEATAC - regardless of winds at BFI. My hunch is that SEATAC was in the process of switching runway directions and VistaJet was told to turn around and taxi all the way to the other end of the airport (a 10,000' runway). That would likely have taken 10-15 minutes and might have resulted in a few planes slotting in ahead of them, so they requested a pattern flight in an attempt to get off the ground before the runway direction was flipped. Supporting evidence: Check out Cessna 804 (from about 1:30 to 2:45 in the video). He comes in like he's going to make right traffic for 32R, but gets flipped around to an abbreviated left pattern for 14L. I've had that happen to me when I was getting my PPL at BFI. :-)
As I understand it, VistaJet's normal business model charges for time flown, so those five hours would have been charged to what Kennedy Steve liked to call the 1% sitting behind the flight deck.
that stuff happens in aviation , once I departed and the ATC calls to vector me back to the downwind , I asked the pilot monitoring to tell the ATC the go around traffic needs the downwind vectors and we need to remain on the departure leg , the ATC just apologized and recleared us to remain on the SID , it's common for the controllers to get mixed up which and whom is going where. Now this VISTA JET got a VFR departure which was enough to trigger their attention that there is a confusion with the ATC .
More like the tower trolling the gulfstrem all day long. They made the jet hold over a busy area low altitude, tight turns with all kind of alarms and shouting. Jet did was was asked, I though that the pilot was about to outburst insults anytime, very professional to withstand unnecesary presure.
I noticed that the pilots decided to swap who was talking to the tower half way through. Wonder if the first guy said he was about to say something unprofessional.
And this is why you should pick up your IFR clearance on the ground and if you intend to take off vfr you shoul remind tower of your intentions. All of this could have been avoided with a little better communication at the beginning. Obviously the controller had no indication of a departure to the north and due to the pilots comments such as pattern altitude, down leg and base turn it was confusing if the pilot intended to stay in the pattern. Simple misunderstanding that made a departure very confusing and stressful. Props to the pilots for staying cool and collected and not getting flustered
Not true, I have absolutely no aviation education but am still able to follow both whats going on in the video and the discussion in the comments. (I have listened to quite a few atc and technical aviation videos and played some flight sim though...)
Just communication(s) Rules & Regulations whereas, the pilot had a plan, however, information was not passed along to the local controller as to the "primary intentions" of the VFR departing Vistajet in the pattern and his intended "transition" to go from VFR departure to IFR clearance. ✈🌍😎
I don’t know why everyone is so upset with the Vista pilots. It’s nothing more than a miscommunication and I am quite sure that they informed the ground controller that they are planning to go to Athens. Aren’t IFR pick ups a regular thing in America? In Europe it is. And since they are European I guess they didn’t expect any hiccups in the pick up procedure.
Been flying in the US. Smaller Towers like you to pick your IFR clearance on the ground because of the paperwork they need to fill out and send back and forth with their small fax printer. Hold for release is a common term you hear which just means wait at an intersection or at the hold short till your route is clear and IFR clearance is given.
This was very educational to me, because I used to live about an equal distance between KBFI and KSEA. I always wondered how those two airports, and Renton's Boeing Field, coordinated their ATC. Still don't have a complete picture of it, of course, but it was still interesting to listen to and watch (thanks for the great animation).
@@KingdaToro BFI and SEA are literally a stone throw away and the runways are lined up almost parallel. So this is way more serious than the things going on in NYC where there are many airports but far from this close to each other.
Why would they not pickup ifr on the ground? Boeing field has a perfectly good clearance frequency which was active (I pulled up liveatc archives to make sure).. Why would they not want departure to vector them safely away from seatac traffic, especially since they were going to pickup ifr anyway?
Sometimes if there is a delay in picking up IFR on the ground for whatever reason, some pilots would go VFR then pick it up with departure. it's a schedule thing, keeping his time slot or just don't like waiting.
What a complete cluster. I started watching it thinking "these jet pilots forgot how to fly a standard pattern" until he asks for clearance and then understood the sneaky maneuver he tried to pull. I did the same thing two weeks ago but not out of a class Bravo. Launch VFR due to any number of reasons which would cause delays and pick up your clearance with Center as soon as you are airborne and out of the vicinity. This was a clever plan but abysmally executed and they should have known better, especially in a super busy airspace like SEATAC.
@@stephenzenerak7846 Depending on the traffic capacity of a certain area you may sometimes be "held for release" meaning that the controller is waiting for a capacity slot for you to depart with. At un-towered fields this is particularly common due to the airport only being able to handle one IFR aircraft at a time. If the weather is good you can depart VFR to get out of the congested/problematic area and then pick up your IFR clearance enroute. It sounds like that is what these guys tried to do but instead they asked to stay in the traffic pattern instead of requesting a "departure to the north". Then they tried to pick up an enroute clearance in an already congested airspace (which is why they probably weren't given their departure clearance on the ground) which likely annoyed the controllers as there are capacity restrictions in place for a reason. Trying to pick up an enroute clearance can backfire if you try to pull a fast one because ATC can decline if their workload permits (as they originally did in this video).
The shortest explanation is this: (and based largely on conjecture, as to the flight crew's motives) First, Download this.PDF: tinyurl.com/y2sp9z6y *I'm guessing that the passenger/passengers aboard 'pushed the flight crews's buttons' to get them the he** out of Seattle. Vistajet's dispatchers/flight ops staff must have had some knowledge as to what was up. Vistajet "ain't no small company", they are a large, and legitimate charter airline. Add to this, the fact that a G550, is a $45M, to $65M (amenities), very technically advanced machine; those pilots aren't the overworked/underappreciated and poorly paid commuter airline "puddle jumping jitney hack drivers, flying puddle jumpers just to build PIC time and get called-up to the big leagues", these guys would feel right at home at any large airline. *IFR flight plans involve significant planning, when considering that the probable flight route encompasses/incorporates a great deal of distance across Canada, and through Canadian airspace; over Greenland; over **Iceland; skirt Ireland and the UK; then, finally, "Eurocontrol". As before, this flight needed to submit an IFR Flight Plan, proposed route of travel, times of expected waypoint arrival/in-transition/transitional departure between those waypoints, altitudes, proposed/actual expected speeds, WEATHER, I say again - WEATHER. Remember, Jetstreams can either help you, or slow you down; they've had to have had a look at the latest "North Atlantic Track" mapping/projections. It would take no less than 45 minutes, to key-in the navigational waypoints necessary to fly to Athens, and that doesn't take into account, the (normally) three verification procedures and confirmations necessary in most airline policies and procedures manuals/documents. **Athens would distance-wise, be at or near the maximum range of a G550; I'd schedule a refuel @ Reykjavik NEVER PUSH THE MARGINS Combine this info, with the other stuff written in responses, and you'll be at least halfway there. This flight, plainly, and simply, pulled a bulls**t move, in an ill-advised attempt to butt in line. One thing is certain, someone, somewhere got chewed out, and bigtime, over this....
Does anyone know if they initially entered the IFR queue, and timed out, or attempted changes which locked them out, and voided the original IFR transmittal/sequence?? Sorry, and thanks!!
I want clear this whole situation up a bit further than other people may have noticed. Starting from the beginning, Vistajet didn't call up for a regular IFR clearance because they probably had a very high-paying important passenger that was late for something in Athens. He probably was held on the ground for whatever reason and was told to standby for his IFR clearance. He needed to desperately depart to get the passenger to Athens on time, so he decided to depart VFR so that he can just be ready for taxi and takeoff immediately, instead of having to wait for his IFR clearance. These Vistajet seemed to be foreign pilots that aren't very familiar with U.S. VFR procedures, and are especially not aware of how busy SeaTac is. So, they call up tower, holding short of the runway ready for departure, but they never reported their intentions or direction of flight and tower was confused on his intentions VFR. Tower asks Vistajet "just verifying your squawking VFR and understand you WANT a right traffic pattern?" This is a valid question to ask since tower probably never seen a Bombardier Global jet (about the size of CRJ200) depart VFR and also didn't know his intentions since he didn't call up with it. Vistajet thinks that the right traffic pattern question was an instruction and acknowledges it (they simply just said "right traffic pattern" as if it was an instruction for them), not knowing what kind of cluster he would get into, and also says "affirmative, squawking VFR 1200," as a response to tower's 1st part of the question. So tower clears the aircraft for takeoff and expects him to fly a regular traffic pattern like any other pilot would in a prop aircraft. However, the Vistajet pilots probably wanted to just depart VFR northbound or something and pick up IFR, they weren't expecting to fly a VFR pattern. It is quite hard/impossible to fly a tight regular traffic pattern in a big business jet fully loaded with fuel and passengers bound for Athens, and the pilots probably have never attempted to do a traffic pattern in such a jet either, so they ran into some troubles there. They would need to keep a high speed to maintain airborne due to their weight and that causes a slower turn to happen, which was problematic for ATC and other traffic in the area. The pilots also were refusing to land due to maximum landing weight which is part of their plan to force ATC into giving them a IFR clearance in the air to cut the queue and be on their way to Athens. In the end it looks like it worked out besides the horrendous traffic patterns: flightaware.com/live/flight/VJT868/history/20190613/1741Z/KBFI/LGAV
This still doesn’t make sense. The only way the controller would have thought they wanted to stay in the pattern is if the pilots specifically said they were looking to stay in the pattern. As far as I can tell the pilots basically said they just wanted a VFR departure. I’m confused at why the controller thinks this private jets wants to fly around in the pattern when the pilots mentioned nothing of the sort. Not saying the pilots were in the right here, but whenever I want to fly VFR I tell ATC my intentions, either what direction I want to fly, altitude, location, or if I want to simply stay in the pattern.
@@robjohnson3437 ... Well, when Vistajet calls ready for take off they don't mention intentions (which would be expected from a VFR flight), the tower then asks if they are flying a right traffic pattern to what the pilots confirm right traffic pattern (there seems to have been a misunderstanding, tower asked a question but pilots seem to have interpreted it as an instruction, to which they could have objected but didn't). Then tower again says (TWICE!) that pattern altitude will be 1500 and they don't object. Even when tower says continue downwind and I will call your base turn Vistajet doesn't object. Only when the tower says "you are overshooting your final, expect landing clearance on a 2 miles final" Vistajet says "we are departing to the North", and after an evasive maneuver request by the Tower and after the Tower asks for their intention again, only then they disclose "we are going to Athens". Really? So ok, yes, there was a lot of confusion, miscommunication and misunderstanding. But really? The pilots did not behave very professionally if you ask me. What did they expect? To take off and that the tower says "do whatever you want, hasta la vista vistajet"???
racinggamerfail So next time ATC can tell them to fly a pattern out over the ocean until they've reached max landing weight! Screw those selfish people!
I think the pilots never denied the pattern work instructions until it became unbearable for them was due to several reasons. These are foreign pilots who almost don't fly VFR at all , especially not under US FAA ATC, and as far as I know VFR procedures can be quite different in Europe. Because the pilots interpreted ATC's question as an instruction to fly a pattern, they did not want to object or deny any sort of INSTRUCTION that ATC gave them. If they denied any instruction, then it would mean that they would be possibly subject to more delays. The pilots must've been super desperate to do whatever they could to get in the air, even if it means complying with a ridiculous ATC instruction, which is very unprofessional in my opinion. I'm assuming they never have flown a VFR pattern in a jet like that ever in their lives and so they didn't know what to expect. But after trying to fly a pattern and getting into conflict with other aircraft in the busy airspace, they realized that it wasn't a viable option to continue and tried to finally request what they wanted to do in the 1st place (VFR departure to the north).
couldnt help but laugh IMO lol what would have been really funny if they said "no we cant negotiate, hold out there for 5 hours to get max landing weight and then you can pick up your ifr clearance" 0.0
So is the assumption that the crew were delayed in picking up their IFR and decided then to just take off anyway and hope that Clearance would give them their IFR while airborne? Yikes. How unprofessional.
Welcome to the world of executive Aviation... if your customer wants you to depart now, you better do so, or he’ll finds someone who can for sure... 🤷🏼♂️
It’s... legal. If Ill advised. It’s legal to takeoff VFR and pickup an IFR clearance in the air. But... that’s usually in the context of small piston aircraft departing small untowered fields. Or perhaps taking off with marginal weather; wanting to go VFR, but filing an IFR flight plan in case the weather turns poor (and they need to pick it up in the air)
James Lee well... for me it was a common procedure during flight training. If we received a Slot and were very short in time, we filed a new Zulu Flight Plan, departed VFR and picked up our clearance once airborne. However.. that happened outside CTR Airspace D. And no I’m not saying, that the pilots showed any good airmanship. I was simply giving an possible explanation for them to do this.
Hey Michael, I know the pilots have operational limits they have to fly the plane within, but the "we're at max bank" kind of sounded to me as more of a "F-you ATC" and less of a "this is all she can handle at the moment." Am I correct? (Edited to get the correct quote.)
There is clearly going to be a lot of misinformation here. So let me set the record straight. Normally if you leave from a controlled field like Boeing, you WILL get your clearance on the ground, whether it's domestic or IFR. Picking up an IFR in the air is pretty much exclusively reserved for non-towered airports. What these clowns did was completely unprofessional and dangerous, regardless of the reason they did it.
If there is a traffic delay (or any other sort of ground delay/etc) in Class B airspace, and you take off VFR expecting to skirt the system, this is what happens
Control knew this was VFR and then started giving IFR instructions almost immediately and then put him back into the pattern for landing. Seems control screwed this one, not the pilot.
There were no IFR instructions. If you fly into Boeing Field, it's procedural, because Seatac airport is right next to it, as well as Renton on the other side. You MUST follow instructions around the airport, which has a VFR approach into the airport that is similar to an IFR approach.
Which pilot? The guy who took off for Greece without a flight plan or IFR clearance and expected to file it with the busy local controller while in the pattern? The guy who confirmed he was VFR before leaving the ground? I guess it does take nerves of steel to fly when you're that low-functioning and self-obsessed. I'm glad they're all safe.
@@beenaplumber8379 Thats not the case, look at the posts above, the Vistajet did file IFR flight plan but was too heavy so they said depart VFR and once airborne youll be set up for IFR, ground failed to relay that to tower and the pilot had no idea why they were being turned around
@@mattnsac My bad if I missed that detail. That adds a whole new dimension to the charlie foxtrot. That wasn't clear from the video, and the title says the Gulfstream caused the chaos, so that's why I thought he was being rather unreasonable. What a mess.
@@mattnsac even tho they had filed IFR already, they did not pick up an IFR clearance from the ground. The pilots are wrong for doing this. As per your comment about the ground controller not passing along the info to tower, that’s not the case bc he was squawking VFR and did not have an IFR squawk code. Also while departing, the tower controller did try to confirm the pilots intentions and they failed to communicate properly to the tower controller. The pilots are clearly in the wrong and should definitely be given a phone number to talk to the FAA so that they can learn US NAS procedures. It’s not that hard to pick up IFR on the ground at a towered airport.
@@meet1348 I bet you've never picked up an IFR clearance in your life outside of MS Flight Simulator. In the real world, getting an IFR release in congested airspace like that is a non-trivial task and is ridiculous in severe clear VMC conditions. I bet you think IFR should always be closed on the ground, too? Even if that means effectively shutting down the surrounding airspace for upwards of 15 minutes for no reason at all.
I love moments where the controllers get order crazy and start ordering planes “heading north, north now, you need to go north” when you’re looking at your heading indicator and it’s already showing 0/360 and your compass settles down and confirms it along with your gps. “Approach, we’re already heading North... so please advise?” Or “I need you to turn north, turn faster” and you just get to respond “we began turning at the first order, we’re already in a maximum bank, are you suggesting I ignore my plane’s restrictions, is this an emergency?” and hear them start to take their tone down
When you're about to run into another airplane, you don't think that constitutes maybe an emergency and to expedite the turn BEYOND their max 30 degree bank?
Sometimes you can getaway with this tactic: File an IFR Clearance, before Clearance is granted, depart VFR, and ask to pick up the clearance. Sometimes this does not work.
Mike Parker--You don't file a "clearance". You file a flight plan. ATC gives you a clearance, and the clearance may or may not be what you filed. Big difference between the 2 terms.
Yes you are correct. I used the wrong term. I meant file a Flight Plan. Then you receive the Clearance. A rookie mistake from a former CFII and Comm Multi Pilot.
Their IFR flight plan was filed and approved. Ground controller got them to make a non-standard take-off due to weight which could only be done VFR. Told the pilots that the IFR would be picked up airborne but failed to communicate this to tower or departure causing confusion for everyone involved.
I presume he should have said he was departing VFR to the north and then contacted approach for the clearance?. But could he not have gotten the clearance from the tower before getting airborn?
He would have been in a long lineup for departure if he was leaving with the rest of the IFR flights. Leaving VFR and then picking up IFR enroute was his cunning plan. I'm sure he's done it many times with a more savvy controller.
@@andytaylor1588 So I presume then for an IFR departure, it would have had to be coordinated with all the other IFR departures from the other airports?
Yea the tower should of giving him to departure to have them make him IFR. I wouldn't be surprised if he got his IFR on the ground and then when he found out he was getting delayed decided to depart VFR.
As an ASEL pilot I’d be so stressed swimming among those large turbine aircraft. Just listening to this I’m glad I’m a hobby flyer and keep it simple and fun.
Wow.....Talk about Piss Poor Planning, relaying Communication intent to proper controlling authorities, Sub-par flying, thinking, and being Infront of the aircraft. Pilots are suppose to have these attributes down to a science somewhere between the Instrument and Commercial or CFI Rating. Way before ATPL and Type Rating. What gives? 🙄🤔👨🏽✈️✈🌍
If I was one of the pilots I wouldn't have been so polite, stressful situation imposed on them (multiple times over) then to continue on after that, props to them.
Well, he didn't do anything wrong or didn't do anything deviated from what instructed so no number needed. What's wrong is the way of doing things by both parts.
They definitely were not given IFR clearance and took off with the hopes they would get it inflight. That right their should have led to a phone number considering they put them selves in a collision course with Seattle with a 757. This was really cringe worthy as a pilot to see these guys do such a thing
@@nb7966 their is no way they could have been given a clearance because they would have not been allowed to takeoff from the ground if they had received it from ground on clearance delivery. If they got a clearance from ground then they would have been kept on ground until their departure time as scheduled. What happened I assume is that the crew I'm sure was pressured by time from their PAX and had to takeoff by saying they wanted to do the traffic pattern and leave on the downwind and thought they could get their clearance delivery from the air. On top lets remember that tower in the begining confirmed they wanted right close traffic. They did not say requesting a departure to the north. Then a few minutes later on downwind they stated they can't land because they would need to fly 5 hours to burn it off. Hence the crew lied
See the comment near the top of the video which explains what happened. It appears the pilot received IFR clearance to Athens from Ground and a flight plan filed, accordingly. Then for reasons explained, a different runway then originally anticipated was used for takeoff, which required a VFR departure. All of this was discussed between the pilot and Ground, and approved. Ground did not relay enough info to the Tower which led them to believe the plane was attempting to reland. Then chaos ensued...
I've heard of pilots trying to game the system to avoid IFR departure delays by departing VFR then requesting IFR to their destination once away from the airport. Is that what was happening here? With high-value passengers in a corporate jet demanding to "get there now" I could understand the motivation to do so. That being said, the directions including a downwind should have been a cue that something hadn't been understood correctly. Listening to the accents, one of the pilots was English and I think the other was Dutch or Belgian. If they hadn't been to the US before, I wonder if they failed to understand the differences between European and US phraseology
Tyler Vossler A jet departed hoping to pick up the authorization for their flight plan in the air but instead was taken on a wild goose chase around the airport.
Pilot was NOT trying to pull a "fast one". He had an IFR filed, but safety reasons forced him to make a nonstandard (opposite direction!) departure, factors including plane weight and surrounding environment, and could only depart VFR. There was an IFR clearance waiting, pre-arranged, which the Ground controller (who'd _made_ them depart VFR) didn't pass along! Departure incorrectly assumed first that he was just flying patterns around the GA field, then second that he was trying to pull a fast one (by getting IFR while airborne). The crazy vectoring happened because an executive jet covers territory faster than a pilot school 172, and doesn't turn as sharply either.
Excuse my french, but that seemed like an asshole move on the part of Vistajet 868. Simply because they didn't want to wait, they instead risk the safety of several other flights and disrupt the workflow of the tower controller. I wonder if they could be reported to the FAA for safety violations on this incident.
I’m lost....can someone explain what’s going on (a non-pilot, here)? Based on comments, it sounds like the pilot was trying something sneaky by “using” instrument vs visual, but, well, I don’t understand (again, non-pilot).
Okay so I am no expert but here is the breakdown as far as I got it. So in the beginning the Air Traffic Controller (ATC) asked the pilot for their intentions and they said they were going to fly Visual flight Rules (VFR). VFR means that the plane did not file a Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) plan that needs to be approved showing the path the plane would be taking to their destination. VFR is flying basically by visual means, you will of course still use some instruments but ultimately the pilot is navigating and piloting the aircraft. VFR which is more commonly used in smaller planes with less instruments and pilots who may not be instrument graded. VFR should really only be used in good weather since it really relies on the eyesight of the pilot to navigate and avoid dangers. It is more strenuous to get a IFR flight since they need to be filed and approved and sometimes they can cause delays in take offs because you often are in a long queue of other IFR flights. It appears from watching the video that the plane took off with a VFR clearance and confused the ATC because they don't know what the plane is trying to do. Later when the plane then asks for an IFR clearance the ATC is pretty upset because you are supposed to do that on the ground and they don't usually give those to planes already in flight. The real problem for the ATC is that the plane claims to be too heavy to land at the runways at the airport so he can't make them land and figure out clearances. Big/Heavy planes like that are not made to make tight turns and patterns that they usually use for VFR flights that have to remain low and out of the way around certain classes of flight zones for bigger planes. Flight Zones are basically restricted areas of flight rules tightly controlled by ATC's around airports and other sensitive airspace's. If the plane was in IFR they could have them join other large planes in a more typical holding pattern or given them headings to fly out towards Athens. So what people think happened was that the pilot was trying to avoid a delay in taking off by asking for a VFR takeoff which doesn't need to be filed, and then later asking for their IFR once they were in the air that they could fly to Athens. The ATC was trying to figure that out while making the plane fly in safe directions and avoid all the traffic around it which was difficult because its doesn't maneuver so easily. It just couldn't make the turns that the ATC wanted in safe directions. I am sorry if that wasn't very helpful or wrong but let know if you have any questions.
Caroline Yeh a few years back, there was GA aircraft trying to land at a busy field with lots of commercial (fast) traffic. They kept bringing her around, offering runway changes, etc and over time she got more flustered. At some point she tried to make a hard, high bank turn to line up with a runway - which IIRC turned fatal when the a/c stalled and the low speed, low altitude left zero recovery room. When the controller was telling these guys to turn hard because they were going to hit another a/c, it reminded me of that.
I watched the low approach. The flight crew were genuinely not easy to work with and had serious attitude. BFI is a Class D under an 1100' Bravo shelf. They also were in a Global6000, not a Gulfstream. Busted RNT Class D, SEA Class B, near miss UA753 and VS789, pop up NAT IFR, departed opposite direction... colossal cluster.
The response to needing 5 hours to burn fuel should have been holding instructions. Make him waste the fuel. The pilot can always pickup his toys and leave as in go vfr out of the bravo and get a plan.
Fuel dumping is something to be done only when there's no other options (i.e. an emergency or a situation in which the pilots deem that they must return to the airport ASAP), it's a rather dangerous operation, traffic at or bellow FL of the aircraft dumping must be alerted not to fly in the area among other considerations like economical and environmental.
It’s legal to pick up an IFR in the air with departure. It’s quite common to ask tower for VFR departure to say the North, and then pick up your filed route with departure. Now you can ask for closed pattern, and then leave the pattern, and not tell tower what’s going on.
The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controlled did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to reland. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to it’s heavy weight and minimum speed.
For the know-nothings, how did ATC switch from having the Gulfstream depart to land again? ATC says thy can't give IFR clearance airborne. Does that mean the Gulfstream had not cleared a plan before takeoff?
It sounds like they had some maintenance issue they wanted to flight check. They fully were prepared to head over the Atlantic before departure (assuming everything worked), instead of picking up the clearance on the ground, or taking off with less fuel and ops checking it, they pulled this BS stunt.
@@JimLatp Not at all. Sounds like he was trying to jump the queue on departure. Took off VFR on picked his IFR en-route to avoid the delay on his departure if he would have tried to pick his IFR on the ground.
So judging by the fact that it is a Gulfstream we can assume his PAX were sensitive to time and he was probably looking at a hefty delay if he tried to pick up his IFR on the ground. A lot of coordination goes on for international IFR and to avoid it he just departed VFR and attempted to pick his IFR up in the air.
@@JacobKrustchinsky yup. Sounded like private jet arseholery at it's finest. Reminds me of the private jet pilot complaining about the delay leaving Spirit of St Louis airport because there was a burning plane and dying pilot that they were dealing with at the time.
And now I understand why Kennedy never even lets planes leave their gate without a flight plan at hand, because down the events, it just gets more and more stressful. I also don't understand why they let that Vistajet fly close to all the other arriving and departing traffic all the time, instead of putting him into a holding pattern away from everything, until they have their IFR clearance.
Ground controller didn't pass on to tower when he handed them off that they were filing IFR in the air. So the Tower was completely out of the loop, thinking the Vistajet was staying in the pattern. What resulted was the Charlie Foxtrot you see here.
When ATC told a departing plane to fly base I was a bit confused because I usually only hear that instruction given for planes arriving. But the pilot copied the instruction and started flying a south base even though he was departing north, so I figured everything must be okay. However when ATC said that 686 is overrunning their turn for final I almost crapped my pants. Then when ATC calls the flight 848 at 4:34 I did a facepalm. But I have to keep in mind that a bad day in the office for me means that someone can’t print or the coffee pot was empty. A bad day in the office for a controller means that people die. It’s such an incredibly stressful job that there’s a maximum age limit for new controllers, just like there’s a max age limit to join most (if not all) branches of the military. I commend the pilot of 868 for staying calm and being polite. He had every right to be upset about the danger he was put into but he was professional enough to know that his main priority was the safety of the souls onboard, and that there will be plenty of time to complain later.
I noted that about half way through 868 switches who is talking on the radio. I wonder if the first pilot was worried he'd loose his professional calm with ATC.
![[REAL ATC] American A333 | ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS SICK in flight!](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D9JQ-tnc4uQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![[REAL ATC] American A333 | ALL FLIGHT ATTENDANTS SICK in flight!](/img/tr.png)
![[REAL ATC] MD-80 DELTA CRASH at La Guardia Airport](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/biDnVJ6EqA8/mqdefault.jpg)
*Listening to this was both funny and frustrating!!*
Why this confusion for a flight which is intended to go directly to the east and cross the pond towards Europe?
VASAviation - probably because KSEA causes tons of ground stops and other massive congestion delays for KBFI due to the huge traffic volumes and geographic overlap between the two.
Clearly an ATC error if the Vistajet filed the flight plan correctly.
Random Acts of Video I think the entire point is that they deliberately filed it wrong to try and make an end run around the regulations. And that made life hell for the guy trying to manage the weird airspace at BFI.
UK PPL here. That pilot should have picked up his route clearance before departure. Sounds like he was trying to shortcut the system by departing VFR in an aircraft unsuited to the traffic conditions. My guess is he was being pressured into cutting corners by a spoilt rich kid in the back, but at the end of the day it’s the captain’s responsibility. He caused unnecessary chaos for others, and demonstrated unprofessional behaviour and poor airmanship. A disgrace to the usually high professional standards of UK and EU aircrew.
@@matthewhall5571 It's unclear if thats what happened. If it did then its a huge issue.
Pattern work in a Gulfstream. Best 40k ever spent on landing practice.
I had always wondered how SeaTac and BFI managed to avoid traffic conflicts when their runways are almost parallel and running into each other. Turns out, they don't 🤷🏼♀️
Several mistakes: 1) ground didn't relay the plan to tower. 2) pilots didn't verify plan with tower. 3) pilots should've questioned the fact that they were given right closed traffic rather than a VFR departure on course. 4) pilots completely hosed the right traffic instruction. They were told to turn right based and botched it (overlying the final, violating the SEA bravo interfered with the SEA south departures). What a mess, all of it avoidable. Very interesting video....could make for excellent training. So many assumptions on top of assumptions, and missed clues.
Tower appeared aware of the plan to take off VFR and remain in the traffic pattern. It is so weird for that kind of plane that they asked to confirm and the pilot verbally confirmed every aspect of that plan. The pilot did not say he planned to zip around in the pattern of highly congested airspace in a G650 or whatever at 1500 feet while trying to pick up his transoceanic clearance. If he had told that to tower, they would have flat out denied him. It was an insane plan on the part of the pilot.
@@edomalley1 Yeah that about sums it up haha.
@@edomalley1 He wouldn't be getting his oceanic clearance until Iceland, in the meantime he needed an IFR clearance.
That VistaJet turned into THREE jets. 848, 858 and 868. I'm not sure the controller knew which one he was talking to.
Just got off the phone with Vista Air dispatch, they are still doing circuits and expect to fly VFR to athens
LOL!
Yep, only at 17,500ft. Estimated additional flight time: hours and hours.
LMAO! I needed that
😄😄😄👍
Good thing, they will pick up G airspace over oceanic area without bugging for clearances.
I've always said I've wanted a job where my biggest decision is going left or right. After watching this Ive changed my mind.
Just as long as it doesn't end with..."do you have a pen, I have a number for you to call", then it's all good haha....
XD true!
Facts
Been there!
I fly with an Aerial survey company, as a LEO not a pilot. We fly around Washington DC every year taking updated photos for maps. One year we flew into restricted airspace (P-56) and got the dreaded, "Be prepared to copy FAA control number." Pilot I was flying with had Interviews coming up for a Commercial airline and was nervous as could be. We landed and called, luckily it was just a learning moment and he didn't get anything put on his record. The FAA people we spoke to were pretty decent about the whole thing. We were 8000 AGL and had been in constant communication with ATC so no flight back with fighter jets or anything.
Law enforcement officer.
This interaction should be used as an example of how a Captain, First Officer or GA pilot should always maintain there composure when speaking to ATC. Regardless of the situation, An ATC’s job is to provide a safe, orderly flow of traffic. ATC controllers are human, so frustration and anxiety can creep into their brain as well. The pilot handled the complete interaction perfectly by not taking anything personal. Well done, sir!
What are you talking about? The pilot totally mislead the controller and asked for pattern work but only told him he wanted his cross oceanic clearance once he was about to bust airspace. Totally failed to let him know that he wouldn't be able to land at all let alone beat up the pattern. Literally tied the controllers hands. Sure this dude was cool as a cucumber but he totally boned the controller in the process.
@@mikey554 Yep. There is another aviation blog which posted this flight and explained what happened. A private jet trying to depart SEATAK for an overseas flight might have to wait for an hour or more to receive an IFR clearance. So the pilot pulled a fast one: Got VFR clearance instead, and by using the term "downwind leg" clearly suggested to the ATC that he was intending to land. Once in the air, he made his intentions more clear by requesting an inflight IFR, which is not normally done, according to the other aviation blog. When the ATC told him to land, he then discloses that he's overweight (due to the fuel needed to fly to Athens, presumably). So the ATC is stuck. Not really very professional.
I am a corporate pilot: what this pilot did is completely irresponsible. As the PIC it is your responsibility to call in your flight plan with enough time to get a clearance. I typically file it over breakfast or in a taxi; by the time I’m in the jet 1 hour later it’s ready. For lack of 2-5 minutes of work, this guy endangered hundreds of lives.
Copied an explanation from elsewhere:
"The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controlled did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to reland. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to it’s heavy weight and minimum speed."
lmao wtf ^
1500 so much fun at max bank 🤣
What a cluster. Imagine being a passenger with these max bank turns and flying around in circles. OMG.
Eh, if the passengers were pressuring the pilots to take off and shortcut the process in the first place, they deserve what they got. Besides, "max bank" in a business jet is _not_ a sporty or aerobatic maneuver. The folks in back might have been spilling their drinks but its not like they were getting tossed around. :-P
Rest assured, the pilot did not pull this stunt do to "pressure from the passengers"...more like pressure from the check writers
@@bgribbz VistaJet is the kind of company that will get you a transatlantic flight on a private jet with less than a days notice. The cheque writers are the passengers. These are the kind of people who think their time is too valuable and they find themselves too important to have to wait on such things as "picking up IFR clearance on the ground".
From their own website "...146,000 flights, 367,000 passengers ..." or about 2.5 passengers on the average flight. I can't be bothered to look up how many passengers KLM, BA, Emirates or Quantas haul around the place, but I doubt that they'll average about 2.5 passengers per flight.
@Zaphod Whiskers I suppose the passengers don't write their own cheques, but rather their accountants do.
@Zaphod Whiskers Ummm earth, naturally. No the passengers DO NOT write the checks, they simply pay a company, and said company writes the pilots checks... you seem a little butthurt for some reason....are you a pilot that got fired by a check writing passenger or something?
-Looks like one of AirforceProud95 videos 😅
Needs more hot air balloons doing mach 3.
@@1320fastback Oh, don't forget the Boeing 747 Air Force One landing on the carrier.
You win best comment for this one.
Can you imagine trying to pull this on the server when he's the tower? "Negative, Tower. We're at max bank."
😂😂💀
868: let me leave, I’ve already asked to leave
Tower: Impossible! Perhaps the archives are incomplete?
Underrated comment lol
Rflmao
So I'm gathering from everyone else's comments, but tell me... is this what happened?
1 - Pilots had IFR but refiled because their initial runway was no-go due to performance issues
2 - new IFR sat a little too long with ground and didn't make it to the tower in time
3 - pilots took off VFR assuming the IFR was in the tower and shortly to be approved
4 - tower tried to keep them in VFR traffic but the plane was unable due to configuration
5 - pilots assumed tower knew what they wanted and tower assumed pilots were wanting something else
6 - nobody had a good day, but paperwork was minimal
Seems about right to me too, I don’t think anybody is really at fault here besides the individual that failed to relay IFR to tower.
Nailed it. I knew there was more to the story because as a pilot flying a 737, he had a lot of experience flying out of airports across the world. He isn't going to wake up one day and say "F*ck it. Let's make up our own rules today." Plus, there had to be a reason for the Tower to think he was trying to land right after take off. What a complete cluster.
Wasn’t there a clue in the transmissions between ATC and the pilot : “pattern altitude and downwind leg”. Surely that would have indicated someone staying in the circuit.
Exactly he said “I’ll call your base” twice. If he wasn’t planning to land why didn’t that tip him off the ATC misunderstood his intentions.
@@JH-qqqqqiim because they were trying to pull a fast one and file an airborne flight plan and depart from a vfr flight but they had not reckoned on the amount of traffic inbound to more than one airport n their immediate vicinity nor had they reckoned on the controller not giving them an immediate IFR handover as the controller was trying to keep everyone alive as pop up traffic just kept arriving after pop up traffic ( well pop up with regards to the vista jet crew) and all the crew would have liked to do was blast off into the night talking to the IFR controller but the local ATC had given them a southerly escape route with a nice IFR handover but they still didn't realise that close proximity shit was happening all around them and the local ATC controller was trying to keep everyone alive until such times as they were clear to the south out of the way of the impending traffic.
The comment here about can ATC handle traffic into both airports is "Yes" but not with impromptu traffic flying the circuit but not flying the circuit under vfr requiring IFR departures and not actually landing or going around.......?!
Somebody somewhere didn't get an IFR slot departure when still on the ground (probably due to the mass of traffic inbound) so the crew thought let's go into the circuit vfr and then switch to IFR and fly away. Had there been no traffic inbound, at their height, and something like 2 am local then maybe that would have worked well. But it wasn't and it didn't. Messy and embarrassing.
They might, might have tried a vfr flight to Greece at a low altitude, as in low like 1,000 ft and then headed off to Greece and then when out of the traffic zone (and the traffic) then pick it up with the IFR boys and get a clearance and a level.
Personally I would have let them blast off to an oceanic area under vfr and let them file an airborne flight plan but I am not a controller and he was trying to keep them alive and separated from the traffic there were in. It's a lodda fun.
The tiny mistake was to vouch to stay in the circuit, I suppose they could not go off into the night under VFR as there maybe no VFR at night!!
You could hear the panic in the tower’s voice when the Gulfstream got close to the 757
Well he sent them there...
Vistajetpilot, unflappably cool as a cucumber 😁
Because he is British 😉
"868 requesting departure the the Northeast" might have saved a lot of trouble. Tower doesn't care what happens after you leave, so just fly VFR for a couple minutes to get away from the obvious misunderstanding going on here.
im confused about why ATC kept steering 868 into traffic
Because the tried to pull a fast one, getting airborne ahead of their slot and once airborne, demanding their IFR traffic slot which hadn’t been assigned yet.
@@skydive1424 it was explained better in another comment. Basically they filed for IFR but needed to take off in the opposite direction as filed due to their weight. They were cleared to take off VFR and transition to IFR but the tower never got this information. Goes to show how such a tiny bit of miscommunication can become so dangerous
@@skydive1424 wrong. ATC messed this up.
@@virginiaviola5097 lol no. Wtf is wrong with you
@@12b_engineer he's right, ground didn't tell the tower it was an IFR departure, they departed VFR off a non-active runway for performance reasons but tower assumed they were VFR. That's not the pilot's fault.
It would be a global.. Not a Gulfstream.. Vistajet doesn't have Gulfstreams
Correct, the channel owner probably couldnt tell difference of a Gulfstream which have oval windows and a Global. The bizjets are so hard to tell from looking at them.
C Cheng no they aren't. Any pilot can differentiate a Global from a Gulfstream.
We can play make believe when ever we want
@@ccheng6477 It's not hard to tell the difference between a global and a gulfstream at all
@@ccheng6477 lol not really
Is it me or did the ATC fuck it all up? Even I knew the 868 was departing. Why did the ATC want to land him??? Yeesh. I can't believe in 2021 with all the computerized technology we have they still haven't figured out how to automate departures and landings.
Arrogance. Tower wanted to teach a lesson to the VistaJet, because tower thought VistaJet shortcutted a departure with a VFR clearance. Turns out no lesson needed to be had since tower was wrong in that assumption. Conclusion: tower was an asshole that day.
If you have flown this area it is pretty obvious that you cannot extend the downwind leg by four miles and stay out of Rentons airspace - as was instructed by the tower. The airports are so close together that a normal downwind leg is not possible even if you don’t extend it. You have to keep it really tight and fly a heading that closes with the runway. If you then turn base at this point you fly straight through the centreline and into Seatac’s airspace.
Also, it is really obvious that the aircraft is on an IFR flight because they are using a flight number as their callsign. If they were flying VFR they would have used their tail number. So a little common sense might have been applied by the tower.
The tower clearly did not have their details and should have asked before releasing them and the pilots should have confirmed he knew what they were doing but that can be a little hard sometimes as typically you don’t get a friendly response these days when you question things.
This whole thing was caused by ground not telling tower or departure that this was an IFR flight. The runway change was for safety. The pilot however could have made things easier by explaining he had IFR clearance and had no intention to fly patterns! Sometimes standard ATC doesn't cover what was obviously a misunderstanding. The controller might have wondered why a fully loaded Corporate jet would want to do pattern practice! The clue was in the pilot repeatedly telling the controller he was fully fuelled and could not do tight turns. But equally all the pilot needed to have said was that he correctly filed an IFR plan and at the very least needed vectors out of the area!
I am not sure the Vistajet pilots had IFR clearence, because they refused their original IFR clearence, and never received an amended IFR clerence for runway 32L (as it was restricted for self-separating VFR traffic). Ground/Delivery is not authorized to negotiate changes in flight plans on behalf of the tower or departure ATC units, so expecting Ground to tell Tower what to do is a misunderstanding how ATC works. Ground/Delivery cannot re-plan or override the clearences/restrictions from departure/approach/area control by itself.
How is this ATC's fault? He squawked VFR and took off. He was trying to jump the line to get his IFR clearance by doing in mid-air. In busy airspace thats not always guaranteed. I've heard people doing this when I flew KLAX a lot and people would be denied their IFR its just too busy for clearance to be doing that.
The Vistajet had the stupid idea of taking off VFR, picking up his IFR clearance in route, and then flying IFR. Had he picked up his IFR clearance before taxiing, that never would have happened. But he’s super special, so he can do his own thing and forget everyone else!
Doesn’t misunderstandings in this industry cause deaths?
It's still ultimately the PICs responsibility to have what he needs before flight to include clearance
Vistajet 868 is a Global 6000 not a Gulfstream
Would love to have heard the untransmitted words exchanged on both ends.
Just imagine the chat in the cockpit everytime mic was off ....
@@38911bytefree Good One
Maybe the pilot just wanted to appear on a VAS video. 👍
ATC fault, no real fault of Vistajet at all. Thank heavens the pilot was so calm and steady. But to be fair, it's horrendous airspace and ATC have a massive amount to do. Such congestion shouldn't be so common, but that's the way in some places. The "I want" culture in spades.
Well that was a complete balls up by ATC. Had them conducting a right base into on coming traffic lol wtf. Then no suggestions from the Captain on vista686 to make left turn or anything?
Surprised the vista686 didn’t question what atc was thinking with the downwind departure and right turn after take off from 32L. Why not just request a VFR departure hdg to intercept outbound track and just maintain 1500ft till clear of the airfield then pick you your ifr clearance with you request for climb?
The 1500ft requirement call from ATC would’ve been the trigger for me to question things at the holding point. What a shmozzel
So here are some explanations to understand who did what and why :
-TWR asks the aircraft to squawk VFR and to confirm their intentions : right traffic pattern The crew confirmed and never questioned. TWR kept on giving pattern instructions, the crew still don't question anything.
-The crew did not pick up their IFR clearance on the ground (which is standard worldwide, especially if your IFR Flight Plan starts at your departure airport).
-To my understanding, BFI is a VFR TWR. VFR Towers are not allowed to give radar vectors. They can give a direction to fly (e.g., eastbound turn), a suggested heading (e.g., fly suggested VFR hdg of 350) but no vector unlike the approach.
-When an IFR traffic is ready to depart AFTER it has receiced its IFR departure clearance, on a VFR Towered airport, both the approach and the tower need to coordinate. The IFR aircraft is sometimes held on the ground, waiting for the approach to "release" the aircraft ("hold for release" procedure). So here is the situation for this video : there is an aircraft, which is intending to fly IFR, which hasn't received its IFR departure clearance, and which is already airborne. Let's imagine the level of coordination between the tower and the approach now required...
Yea very well explained btw!
The only time you'd pick up clearence in the air In Australia is departing out of class G airports such as avalon, essedon, moorabin etc if tower is not currently online but it'd be something like this "Melbourne approach good afternoon VHTEA is an IFR cirrus sr22 taxies moorabin for bendigo 2 pob" "TEA Melb apch sqwack 3604 no reported ifr traffic report ready at the holding point" *some times passes* "TEA ready at RWY 18" "TEA make right crosswind departure climb 4000 report airborne" "TEA airborne passing 2000 for 4000" "TEA your cleared to bendigo via direct climb FL130"... It's really all coordination
@@HyroAUS In the US, if you depart from an untowered airport (or outside of the operating hours of the tower), you would usually pick up your IFR clearance by phone (with a possible time limit or some kind of restriction). In theory, you can pick it up in the on the Approach/Center frequency too for a reason or another, but it's increasing everyone's workload, especially in busy airspaces like in this example
@@nathanvermeulen8392 oh wow I've never heard of that before, pretty cool, you can always depart OCTA as long as your vfr and out of an uncontrolled airfield down here and call airborne or even just remain OCTA aslong as your outside of the MVA and MSA and are monitoring approach if within 150nm of a major class C airport or centre if not,
In Class D airspace they absolutely can give you vectors but cannot use the radar for sequencing. Things must work a bit differently to the rest of the world in the US. To be fair I haven't flown VFR in probably a decade. I know from my charter days in Australia and South Africa you absolutely can file IFR airborne and I've heard VFR traffic receiving IFR clearance often as well. Odd that you can't in the US. I wouldn't expect to receive it from Tower or Departure but there would have to be a Centre frequency that he could.
What the hell is going on here..why did he takeoff vfr and fly around at 1500ft and then tell them he's going to Athens..am I missing something here??
His passengers must be loving this
I'd bet they were empty, just crew.
getting an IFR release can take longer in busy airspace. getting your ifr clearance in the air is a way around that. but doing that for a trans-oceanic clearance? that's stretching it. the controller was pissed and rightfully so.
ElvianEmpire In a Bravo airport, almost certainly clearance is required to leave the airspace. (Including VFR departures). Usually you’ll hear “VFR departures contact clearance delivery” on the ATIS. The only exception is aircraft remaining in the pattern since they aren’t leaving and don’t need to be sequences. They’re under positive control from the tower.
So a VFR departure out without clearance likely isn’t legal here.
@@ElvianEmpire all that shenanigans almost got people killed. I've never seen anything like that in my career. Absolutely uncalled for.
@@RomansFiveDotEight - I got my initial private pilot's license at BFI. You can depart VFR just talking to the tower. But because you have SEATAC just a few miles to the west and Renton just a few miles to the east, it is INCREDIBLY tight airspace and there are very specific corridors you must fly. These corridors are narrow, but with a modicum of preparation and careful attention to landmarks you can do it no problem. Student pilots manage this several times a day at BFI, flying about 15 miles E to go practice maneuvers, then flying back into BFI airspace to practice landings.
These Jet Jokers obviously did _not_ understand the airspace or the requirements for flying VFR properly out of BFI. Their sloppy maneuvering is a shameful display that demonstrates their lack of understanding (or disregard for) the incredible amount of air traffic surrounding BFI - all of it flying at a similar altitude. The airport has pamphlets in just about every FBO and business around the airport that explains these corridors and procedures! And again: If student pilots can understand this stuff, it ain't rocket science.
Although it still would've been a bit shady, they could have departed VFR and flown at a low level to the north or the south (through the defined corridors underneath SEATAC airspace), then climbed up once clear of the Class B airspace and dialed up ATC on the phone or the radio to get their IFR clearance.
Instead they deliberately misled the BFI Tower by stating that they were going to just make a couple of pattern flights around the airport. Their initial radio calls clearly set expectations with ATC that they were just doing a quick flight. But then *after* screwing up the pattern and obviously having problems remaining in the proper airspace, they started asking for IFR clearance from the Tower (not the right guys to ask in any case) all while the controllers are still dealing with the aftermath of their poor maneuvering *and* while they are still posing a possible threat to the other airplanes in the immediate vicinity. That controller was perfectly justified in telling them to go to hell (i.e. land the plane).
The Cessna 4MA belongs to my flight school, a plane I’ve flown many times 😬😬 same with 48804 😂
How come youre still in school then?
That guy sounded smooth glass. Id fly with him any day. If i flew, of course.
ATP? I think I flew it once or twice
Whoa! This makes no sense. This Vista jet took off and then expected to get IFR clearance to another country while on departure?! Why didn’t he get his IFR clearance before taxing like everyone else? Lol wow. It’s not like this was an uncontrolled airport
Read other comments to understand
5:45 , last half of the sentence is "we're picking an IFR up on the other box" (the other radio)
Tower should of have them hold for 5 hours then land and get the clearance.
Peter Kan no, should’ve given them
“Fly 090 heading, maintain VFR recommend Seattle Center on 12345 for VFR flight following. Good day fine sir”
Peter Kan 😂😂😂
Peter Kan came down and pounded it into their head with a nail gun.
You should chech out more facts before judging... It was a communication breakdown within ground controlers.
@@ForeverMrZaphaell What kind of communication break down? So the takeoff briefing was "we are 10000 pounds above the landing weight and let's do a traffic pattern."
Wow, so he thought he'd pick up IFR clearance in the busy airspace? Dangerous.
He probably would've gotten what he wanted, if he'd just asked for a VFR departure to the east or north, and then asked for flight following, and then asked for IFR clearance from Center while giving his VIP passenger a flyby of Snoqualmie Falls...
Dangerous? How?
blake 1. Busy airspace, tracon spitting out instructions with hardly any space to check in, so you have to wait. 2. While waiting, you’re inside a busy airspace with no established separation services, so you have to focus outside, not inside in writing down clearances.
@@TakingOff its annoying. Its not dangerous. for some airports it is the ONLY way to get clearance. Dont spread disinformation.
@@philipmcniel4908 See the comment near the top of the video which explains what happened. It appears the pilot received IFR clearance to Athens from Ground and a flight plan filed, accordingly. Then for reasons explained, a different runway then originally anticipated was used for takeoff, which required a VFR departure. All of this was discussed between the pilot and Ground, and approved. Ground did not relay enough info to the Tower which led them to believe the plane was attempting to reland. Then chaos ensued...
When no one is ever allowed to make a mistake it can get very difficult not to make a mistake.
who said that? Lincoln or Trump?
Lot of questions here about how and why, so here is my take as a 30 year veteran air traffic controller in Chicago.
Pilot files a flight plan for Athens, and then calls for clearance. ATC gives ground delay for possibly hundreds of different reasons. Pilot, or pax don’t like the delay so pilot decides to get around it by departing VFR under the mistaken idea that he will be given IFR clearance once airborne. In this case probably tried to use the rouse that they were staying in the pattern, this may have been because the entire airport was stopped for all outgoing traffic, or conditions outside the immediate area were IFR.
ATC is not required to issue IFR flight plan to airborne VFR flights, and it’s highly unlikely tower guy could do it anyway. If VFR aircraft encounters IFR conditions a radar facility can provide IFR control but are in no way required to give a requested IFR route or destination and would not do so if they couldn’t for any reason.
I have had pilots do this very thing in the center environment. Ground stopped to XYZ airport so pilot departs VFR to avoid ground stop then tries to activate flight plan.
This could have, and should have gone like this
Pilot: we can’t land for 5 hours
Controller: roger, you are cleared to BFI via direct “point” intersection, “point 3 arrival”. Climb and maintain 7k hold at “point” as published expect further clearance in 5 hours.
Pilot can’t do anything but cancel IFR request or request a destination that he can be cleared to.
As a private pilot, I don't understand why doing this in a center environment would be a problem. I always pick up my ifr clearances in the air unless a vfr departure is unsafe, and I've heard that controllers actually prefer it that way as long as you are able to continue VFR as until they can work you into the flow.
Obviously what this guy did is very different. I'd never try to cut a line by circling the airport "vfr" to force out a clearance. I'm talking about a normal VFR see-and-avoid departure, upgraded to IFR once safely away from the congested airport environment.
Hell yes...He should have got a hold with an EFC 5 hours in the future! HAHAHA
Its notable that the initial takeoff is for runway 32L, and after that all traffic seems to be routing in on southbound runways. BFI and SEATAC are so close together that BFI runway direction always follows SEATAC - regardless of winds at BFI.
My hunch is that SEATAC was in the process of switching runway directions and VistaJet was told to turn around and taxi all the way to the other end of the airport (a 10,000' runway). That would likely have taken 10-15 minutes and might have resulted in a few planes slotting in ahead of them, so they requested a pattern flight in an attempt to get off the ground before the runway direction was flipped.
Supporting evidence: Check out Cessna 804 (from about 1:30 to 2:45 in the video). He comes in like he's going to make right traffic for 32R, but gets flipped around to an abbreviated left pattern for 14L. I've had that happen to me when I was getting my PPL at BFI. :-)
exactly..brillant
As I understand it, VistaJet's normal business model charges for time flown, so those five hours would have been charged to what Kennedy Steve liked to call the 1% sitting behind the flight deck.
The controller seems to be causing more problems than avoiding. Turning 868 to 320 at 1500ft right into the glide slope of the other plane.
Wow, tower jacked this up beyond comprehension 🤦🏼♂️
that stuff happens in aviation , once I departed and the ATC calls to vector me back to the downwind , I asked the pilot monitoring to tell the ATC the go around traffic needs the downwind vectors and we need to remain on the departure leg , the ATC just apologized and recleared us to remain on the SID , it's common for the controllers to get mixed up which and whom is going where.
Now this VISTA JET got a VFR departure which was enough to trigger their attention that there is a confusion with the ATC .
So many people hanging the pilots out to dry when it was in fact ATC at fault.
Why were they giving the pilots a landing clearance when they were supposed to fly to Athens?
Those high dollar pax got the ride of their life in the first ten minutes.
Nice profile picture!
More like the tower trolling the gulfstrem all day long. They made the jet hold over a busy area low altitude, tight turns with all kind of alarms and shouting. Jet did was was asked, I though that the pilot was about to outburst insults anytime, very professional to withstand unnecesary presure.
I noticed that the pilots decided to swap who was talking to the tower half way through. Wonder if the first guy said he was about to say something unprofessional.
And this is why you should pick up your IFR clearance on the ground and if you intend to take off vfr you shoul remind tower of your intentions. All of this could have been avoided with a little better communication at the beginning. Obviously the controller had no indication of a departure to the north and due to the pilots comments such as pattern altitude, down leg and base turn it was confusing if the pilot intended to stay in the pattern. Simple misunderstanding that made a departure very confusing and stressful. Props to the pilots for staying cool and collected and not getting flustered
Warning: Only pilots and ATC’s can make sense of this. As a total layperson I had no idea what was going on, but sounded like a mess.
Robert Edmondson as a Sim pilot, I was in deep facepalm mode.
Not true, I have absolutely no aviation education but am still able to follow both whats going on in the video and the discussion in the comments. (I have listened to quite a few atc and technical aviation videos and played some flight sim though...)
Just communication(s) Rules & Regulations whereas, the pilot had a plan, however, information was not passed along to the local controller as to the "primary intentions" of the VFR departing Vistajet in the pattern and his intended "transition" to go from VFR departure to IFR clearance. ✈🌍😎
I don’t know why everyone is so upset with the Vista pilots. It’s nothing more than a miscommunication and I am quite sure that they informed the ground controller that they are planning to go to Athens. Aren’t IFR pick ups a regular thing in America? In Europe it is. And since they are European I guess they didn’t expect any hiccups in the pick up procedure.
Been flying in the US. Smaller Towers like you to pick your IFR clearance on the ground because of the paperwork they need to fill out and send back and forth with their small fax printer. Hold for release is a common term you hear which just means wait at an intersection or at the hold short till your route is clear and IFR clearance is given.
This was very educational to me, because I used to live about an equal distance between KBFI and KSEA. I always wondered how those two airports, and Renton's Boeing Field, coordinated their ATC. Still don't have a complete picture of it, of course, but it was still interesting to listen to and watch (thanks for the great animation).
Thanks!
You should see what New York has to deal with, they've got JFK, Newark, and Laguardia all in very close proximity.
@@KingdaToro BFI and SEA are literally a stone throw away and the runways are lined up almost parallel. So this is way more serious than the things going on in NYC where there are many airports but far from this close to each other.
They don’t lol
@@victorpena3129 They have to have some sort of LOA (letters of agreements) between the facilities on how traffic needs to flow...
Why would they not pickup ifr on the ground? Boeing field has a perfectly good clearance frequency which was active (I pulled up liveatc archives to make sure).. Why would they not want departure to vector them safely away from seatac traffic, especially since they were going to pickup ifr anyway?
Wanted to do some sick sightseeing over Seattle.
I don't understand
Too much of a lineup.
Sometimes if there is a delay in picking up IFR on the ground for whatever reason, some pilots would go VFR then pick it up with departure. it's a schedule thing, keeping his time slot or just don't like waiting.
Maybe they even filed a Z flightplan, we don't know?
What a complete cluster.
I started watching it thinking "these jet pilots forgot how to fly a standard pattern" until he asks for clearance and then understood the sneaky maneuver he tried to pull.
I did the same thing two weeks ago but not out of a class Bravo. Launch VFR due to any number of reasons which would cause delays and pick up your clearance with Center as soon as you are airborne and out of the vicinity.
This was a clever plan but abysmally executed and they should have known better, especially in a super busy airspace like SEATAC.
Ditto! I was starting to type an identical response, then noticed your post. This crew needs desperately to be taken to the woodshed!
@@stephenzenerak7846 Depending on the traffic capacity of a certain area you may sometimes be "held for release" meaning that the controller is waiting for a capacity slot for you to depart with. At un-towered fields this is particularly common due to the airport only being able to handle one IFR aircraft at a time.
If the weather is good you can depart VFR to get out of the congested/problematic area and then pick up your IFR clearance enroute.
It sounds like that is what these guys tried to do but instead they asked to stay in the traffic pattern instead of requesting a "departure to the north". Then they tried to pick up an enroute clearance in an already congested airspace (which is why they probably weren't given their departure clearance on the ground) which likely annoyed the controllers as there are capacity restrictions in place for a reason.
Trying to pick up an enroute clearance can backfire if you try to pull a fast one because ATC can decline if their workload permits (as they originally did in this video).
The shortest explanation is this: (and based largely on conjecture, as to the flight crew's motives)
First, Download this.PDF: tinyurl.com/y2sp9z6y
*I'm guessing that the passenger/passengers aboard 'pushed the flight crews's buttons' to get them the he** out of Seattle. Vistajet's dispatchers/flight ops staff must have had some knowledge as to what was up. Vistajet "ain't no small company", they are a large, and legitimate charter airline. Add to this, the fact that a G550, is a $45M, to $65M (amenities), very technically advanced machine; those pilots aren't the overworked/underappreciated and poorly paid commuter airline "puddle jumping jitney hack drivers, flying puddle jumpers just to build PIC time and get called-up to the big leagues", these guys would feel right at home at any large airline.
*IFR flight plans involve significant planning, when considering that the probable flight route encompasses/incorporates a great deal of distance across Canada, and through Canadian airspace; over Greenland; over **Iceland; skirt Ireland and the UK; then, finally, "Eurocontrol". As before, this flight needed to submit an IFR Flight Plan, proposed route of travel, times of expected waypoint arrival/in-transition/transitional departure between those waypoints, altitudes, proposed/actual expected speeds, WEATHER, I say again - WEATHER.
Remember, Jetstreams can either help you, or slow you down; they've had to have had a look at the latest "North Atlantic Track" mapping/projections.
It would take no less than 45 minutes, to key-in the navigational waypoints necessary to fly to Athens, and that doesn't take into account, the (normally) three verification procedures and confirmations necessary in most airline policies and procedures manuals/documents.
**Athens would distance-wise, be at or near the maximum range of a G550; I'd schedule a refuel @ Reykjavik NEVER PUSH THE MARGINS
Combine this info, with the other stuff written in responses, and you'll be at least halfway there.
This flight, plainly, and simply, pulled a bulls**t move, in an ill-advised attempt to butt in line. One thing is certain, someone, somewhere got chewed out, and bigtime, over this....
Does anyone know if they initially entered the IFR queue, and timed out, or attempted changes which locked them out, and voided the original IFR transmittal/sequence?? Sorry, and thanks!!
MonkeyPaw Thankyou!! 👍🏼
I want clear this whole situation up a bit further than other people may have noticed.
Starting from the beginning, Vistajet didn't call up for a regular IFR clearance because they probably had a very high-paying important passenger that was late for something in Athens. He probably was held on the ground for whatever reason and was told to standby for his IFR clearance. He needed to desperately depart to get the passenger to Athens on time, so he decided to depart VFR so that he can just be ready for taxi and takeoff immediately, instead of having to wait for his IFR clearance. These Vistajet seemed to be foreign pilots that aren't very familiar with U.S. VFR procedures, and are especially not aware of how busy SeaTac is.
So, they call up tower, holding short of the runway ready for departure, but they never reported their intentions or direction of flight and tower was confused on his intentions VFR. Tower asks Vistajet "just verifying your squawking VFR and understand you WANT a right traffic pattern?" This is a valid question to ask since tower probably never seen a Bombardier Global jet (about the size of CRJ200) depart VFR and also didn't know his intentions since he didn't call up with it. Vistajet thinks that the right traffic pattern question was an instruction and acknowledges it (they simply just said "right traffic pattern" as if it was an instruction for them), not knowing what kind of cluster he would get into, and also says "affirmative, squawking VFR 1200," as a response to tower's 1st part of the question.
So tower clears the aircraft for takeoff and expects him to fly a regular traffic pattern like any other pilot would in a prop aircraft. However, the Vistajet pilots probably wanted to just depart VFR northbound or something and pick up IFR, they weren't expecting to fly a VFR pattern. It is quite hard/impossible to fly a tight regular traffic pattern in a big business jet fully loaded with fuel and passengers bound for Athens, and the pilots probably have never attempted to do a traffic pattern in such a jet either, so they ran into some troubles there. They would need to keep a high speed to maintain airborne due to their weight and that causes a slower turn to happen, which was problematic for ATC and other traffic in the area. The pilots also were refusing to land due to maximum landing weight which is part of their plan to force ATC into giving them a IFR clearance in the air to cut the queue and be on their way to Athens.
In the end it looks like it worked out besides the horrendous traffic patterns: flightaware.com/live/flight/VJT868/history/20190613/1741Z/KBFI/LGAV
This still doesn’t make sense. The only way the controller would have thought they wanted to stay in the pattern is if the pilots specifically said they were looking to stay in the pattern. As far as I can tell the pilots basically said they just wanted a VFR departure. I’m confused at why the controller thinks this private jets wants to fly around in the pattern when the pilots mentioned nothing of the sort. Not saying the pilots were in the right here, but whenever I want to fly VFR I tell ATC my intentions, either what direction I want to fly, altitude, location, or if I want to simply stay in the pattern.
@@robjohnson3437 ... Well, when Vistajet calls ready for take off they don't mention intentions (which would be expected from a VFR flight), the tower then asks if they are flying a right traffic pattern to what the pilots confirm right traffic pattern (there seems to have been a misunderstanding, tower asked a question but pilots seem to have interpreted it as an instruction, to which they could have objected but didn't). Then tower again says (TWICE!) that pattern altitude will be 1500 and they don't object. Even when tower says continue downwind and I will call your base turn Vistajet doesn't object. Only when the tower says "you are overshooting your final, expect landing clearance on a 2 miles final" Vistajet says "we are departing to the North", and after an evasive maneuver request by the Tower and after the Tower asks for their intention again, only then they disclose "we are going to Athens". Really? So ok, yes, there was a lot of confusion, miscommunication and misunderstanding. But really? The pilots did not behave very professionally if you ask me. What did they expect? To take off and that the tower says "do whatever you want, hasta la vista vistajet"???
@@navy_flyer2331 ... Exactly. And yet, it did work... somehow... eventually....
racinggamerfail So next time ATC can tell them to fly a pattern out over the ocean until they've reached max landing weight! Screw those selfish people!
I think the pilots never denied the pattern work instructions until it became unbearable for them was due to several reasons. These are foreign pilots who almost don't fly VFR at all , especially not under US FAA ATC, and as far as I know VFR procedures can be quite different in Europe. Because the pilots interpreted ATC's question as an instruction to fly a pattern, they did not want to object or deny any sort of INSTRUCTION that ATC gave them. If they denied any instruction, then it would mean that they would be possibly subject to more delays. The pilots must've been super desperate to do whatever they could to get in the air, even if it means complying with a ridiculous ATC instruction, which is very unprofessional in my opinion. I'm assuming they never have flown a VFR pattern in a jet like that ever in their lives and so they didn't know what to expect. But after trying to fly a pattern and getting into conflict with other aircraft in the busy airspace, they realized that it wasn't a viable option to continue and tried to finally request what they wanted to do in the 1st place (VFR departure to the north).
couldnt help but laugh IMO lol what would have been really funny if they said "no we cant negotiate, hold out there for 5 hours to get max landing weight and then you can pick up your ifr clearance" 0.0
I could've sworn that I was listening to an AirforceProud95 flight simulator session...
Nah, there wasn't an Air Force One in the session XD
The ATC sounded really stressed out maybe to many working hours. I felt for the guy!
So is the assumption that the crew were delayed in picking up their IFR and decided then to just take off anyway and hope that Clearance would give them their IFR while airborne? Yikes. How unprofessional.
Welcome to the world of executive Aviation... if your customer wants you to depart now, you better do so, or he’ll finds someone who can for sure... 🤷🏼♂️
@@737CargoGuy I've been flying corporate for over 18 years. Never in my life would I pull a stunt like this.
It’s... legal. If Ill advised.
It’s legal to takeoff VFR and pickup an IFR clearance in the air. But... that’s usually in the context of small piston aircraft departing small untowered fields. Or perhaps taking off with marginal weather; wanting to go VFR, but filing an IFR flight plan in case the weather turns poor (and they need to pick it up in the air)
Of course, ATC is not required to give an IFR clearance airborne.
James Lee well... for me it was a common procedure during flight training. If we received a Slot and were very short in time, we filed a new Zulu Flight Plan, departed VFR and picked up our clearance once airborne.
However.. that happened outside CTR Airspace D. And no I’m not saying, that the pilots showed any good airmanship. I was simply giving an possible explanation for them to do this.
Can someone explain why on earth they flew the pattern before departing to Athens? Why didn’t they just file IFR to Athens from the start?
Retired ATC here. This is painful to listen to.
Which side of the conversation do you find most painful? As a pilot I think the flight crew acted like a bunch of turds.
sir how was the salary?
This might seem painful to read but would you be so kind as to provide some credentials?
Lies!!!
Hey Michael, I know the pilots have operational limits they have to fly the plane within, but the "we're at max bank" kind of sounded to me as more of a "F-you ATC" and less of a "this is all she can handle at the moment." Am I correct? (Edited to get the correct quote.)
There is clearly going to be a lot of misinformation here. So let me set the record straight. Normally if you leave from a controlled field like Boeing, you WILL get your clearance on the ground, whether it's domestic or IFR. Picking up an IFR in the air is pretty much exclusively reserved for non-towered airports. What these clowns did was completely unprofessional and dangerous, regardless of the reason they did it.
Not at all. Aircraft not only pick up IFR in they air frequently to avoid delays, the also cancel IFR frequently in the air to avoid delays.
@@smitty1893 Not from airports in Class B airspace they don't. How is it there are so many poorly informed armchair pilots in the world?
@@JimLatp This airport wasn't in class B. Look at your charts before you start calling other people armchair pilots
If there is a traffic delay (or any other sort of ground delay/etc) in Class B airspace, and you take off VFR expecting to skirt the system, this is what happens
@@JoshOnGuitar except this didn't happen in Class B. This is a Class D airport
This is one of them videos where I actually pull out my hair watching. Casually nearly cutting across 3 active runways...
yeah, I wasn't able to see anything. I had to just sit here and listen.
Control knew this was VFR and then started giving IFR instructions almost immediately and then put him back into the pattern for landing. Seems control screwed this one, not the pilot.
Both
There were no IFR instructions. If you fly into Boeing Field, it's procedural, because Seatac airport is right next to it, as well as Renton on the other side. You MUST follow instructions around the airport, which has a VFR approach into the airport that is similar to an IFR approach.
Pilot should have realized what was going on when he was vectored “downwind”. That means your in the landing pattern
Pilot deserves a medal for flying through this and keeping his cool.
Which pilot? The guy who took off for Greece without a flight plan or IFR clearance and expected to file it with the busy local controller while in the pattern? The guy who confirmed he was VFR before leaving the ground? I guess it does take nerves of steel to fly when you're that low-functioning and self-obsessed. I'm glad they're all safe.
@@beenaplumber8379 Thats not the case, look at the posts above, the Vistajet did file IFR flight plan but was too heavy so they said depart VFR and once airborne youll be set up for IFR, ground failed to relay that to tower and the pilot had no idea why they were being turned around
@@mattnsac My bad if I missed that detail. That adds a whole new dimension to the charlie foxtrot. That wasn't clear from the video, and the title says the Gulfstream caused the chaos, so that's why I thought he was being rather unreasonable. What a mess.
@@mattnsac even tho they had filed IFR already, they did not pick up an IFR clearance from the ground. The pilots are wrong for doing this. As per your comment about the ground controller not passing along the info to tower, that’s not the case bc he was squawking VFR and did not have an IFR squawk code. Also while departing, the tower controller did try to confirm the pilots intentions and they failed to communicate properly to the tower controller. The pilots are clearly in the wrong and should definitely be given a phone number to talk to the FAA so that they can learn US NAS procedures. It’s not that hard to pick up IFR on the ground at a towered airport.
@@meet1348 I bet you've never picked up an IFR clearance in your life outside of MS Flight Simulator. In the real world, getting an IFR release in congested airspace like that is a non-trivial task and is ridiculous in severe clear VMC conditions. I bet you think IFR should always be closed on the ground, too? Even if that means effectively shutting down the surrounding airspace for upwards of 15 minutes for no reason at all.
I love moments where the controllers get order crazy and start ordering planes “heading north, north now, you need to go north” when you’re looking at your heading indicator and it’s already showing 0/360 and your compass settles down and confirms it along with your gps. “Approach, we’re already heading North... so please advise?”
Or “I need you to turn north, turn faster” and you just get to respond “we began turning at the first order, we’re already in a maximum bank, are you suggesting I ignore my plane’s restrictions, is this an emergency?” and hear them start to take their tone down
You are an idiot he was not 0/360 and you can CLEARLY see that.
When you're about to run into another airplane, you don't think that constitutes maybe an emergency and to expedite the turn BEYOND their max 30 degree bank?
Sometimes you can getaway with this tactic: File an IFR Clearance, before Clearance is granted, depart VFR, and ask to pick up the clearance. Sometimes this does not work.
Mike Parker--You don't file a "clearance". You file a flight plan. ATC gives you a clearance, and the clearance may or may not be what you filed. Big difference between the 2 terms.
Yes you are correct. I used the wrong term. I meant file a Flight Plan. Then you receive the Clearance. A rookie mistake from a former CFII and Comm Multi Pilot.
Their IFR flight plan was filed and approved. Ground controller got them to make a non-standard take-off due to weight which could only be done VFR. Told the pilots that the IFR would be picked up airborne but failed to communicate this to tower or departure causing confusion for everyone involved.
this ATC fubarized the whole thing, this was not a really difficult situation . I hope he got some remedial training after this
I presume he should have said he was departing VFR to the north and then contacted approach for the clearance?.
But could he not have gotten the clearance from the tower before getting airborn?
He would have been in a long lineup for departure if he was leaving with the rest of the IFR flights. Leaving VFR and then picking up IFR enroute was his cunning plan. I'm sure he's done it many times with a more savvy controller.
He was being an arsehole and trying to save the 20-45 minutes it would take to do it all on the ground first.
@@andytaylor1588 So I presume then for an IFR departure, it would have had to be coordinated with all the other IFR departures from the other airports?
Yea the tower should of giving him to departure to have them make him IFR. I wouldn't be surprised if he got his IFR on the ground and then when he found out he was getting delayed decided to depart VFR.
As an ASEL pilot I’d be so stressed swimming among those large turbine aircraft. Just listening to this I’m glad I’m a hobby flyer and keep it simple and fun.
No one asked
Wow.....Talk about Piss Poor Planning, relaying Communication intent to proper controlling authorities, Sub-par flying, thinking, and being Infront of the aircraft.
Pilots are suppose to have these attributes down to a science somewhere between the Instrument and Commercial or CFI Rating.
Way before ATPL and Type Rating. What gives? 🙄🤔👨🏽✈️✈🌍
Holy Hell I need a whiskey and a cigarette after listing this fucking madness!! And I don't even smoke or drink!!
4:25 I love how the ATC is so dumbstruck that he gets there call sign wrong.
KLM and easyJet have collided at Amsterdam. Please make a vid mate :)
Global 6000, not a Gulfstream.
If I was one of the pilots I wouldn't have been so polite, stressful situation imposed on them (multiple times over) then to continue on after that, props to them.
They accepted VFR takeoff. Wasn't really being imposed on them, they accepted it.
operating a jet but flying it like a hobbyplot, unbelievable...👺
74MA sounds suspiciously like AirforceProud95....
That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.
Was anyone else waiting for those magical words "Possible Pilot Deviation"?
Well, he didn't do anything wrong or didn't do anything deviated from what instructed so no number needed. What's wrong is the way of doing things by both parts.
They definitely were not given IFR clearance and took off with the hopes they would get it inflight. That right their should have led to a phone number considering they put them selves in a collision course with Seattle with a 757. This was really cringe worthy as a pilot to see these guys do such a thing
Hear, hear!
N B Clarify exactly what IFR clearance they were given before takeoff??
@@nb7966 their is no way they could have been given a clearance because they would have not been allowed to takeoff from the ground if they had received it from ground on clearance delivery. If they got a clearance from ground then they would have been kept on ground until their departure time as scheduled. What happened I assume is that the crew I'm sure was pressured by time from their PAX and had to takeoff by saying they wanted to do the traffic pattern and leave on the downwind and thought they could get their clearance delivery from the air. On top lets remember that tower in the begining confirmed they wanted right close traffic. They did not say requesting a departure to the north. Then a few minutes later on downwind they stated they can't land because they would need to fly 5 hours to burn it off. Hence the crew lied
See the comment near the top of the video which explains what happened. It appears the pilot received IFR clearance to Athens from Ground and a flight plan filed, accordingly. Then for reasons explained, a different runway then originally anticipated was used for takeoff, which required a VFR departure. All of this was discussed between the pilot and Ground, and approved. Ground did not relay enough info to the Tower which led them to believe the plane was attempting to reland. Then chaos ensued...
I've heard of pilots trying to game the system to avoid IFR departure delays by departing VFR then requesting IFR to their destination once away from the airport. Is that what was happening here? With high-value passengers in a corporate jet demanding to "get there now" I could understand the motivation to do so.
That being said, the directions including a downwind should have been a cue that something hadn't been understood correctly. Listening to the accents, one of the pilots was English and I think the other was Dutch or Belgian. If they hadn't been to the US before, I wonder if they failed to understand the differences between European and US phraseology
I am not an aviation expert, can someone explain to me exactly what happened in layman’s terms?
Thanks!
Tyler Vossler A jet departed hoping to pick up the authorization for their flight plan in the air but instead was taken on a wild goose chase around the airport.
Pilot was NOT trying to pull a "fast one". He had an IFR filed, but safety reasons forced him to make a nonstandard (opposite direction!) departure, factors including plane weight and surrounding environment, and could only depart VFR. There was an IFR clearance waiting, pre-arranged, which the Ground controller (who'd _made_ them depart VFR) didn't pass along! Departure incorrectly assumed first that he was just flying patterns around the GA field, then second that he was trying to pull a fast one (by getting IFR while airborne). The crazy vectoring happened because an executive jet covers territory faster than a pilot school 172, and doesn't turn as sharply either.
Excuse my french, but that seemed like an asshole move on the part of Vistajet 868. Simply because they didn't want to wait, they instead risk the safety of several other flights and disrupt the workflow of the tower controller. I wonder if they could be reported to the FAA for safety violations on this incident.
I’m lost....can someone explain what’s going on (a non-pilot, here)? Based on comments, it sounds like the pilot was trying something sneaky by “using” instrument vs visual, but, well, I don’t understand (again, non-pilot).
Okay so I am no expert but here is the breakdown as far as I got it. So in the beginning the Air Traffic Controller (ATC) asked the pilot for their intentions and they said they were going to fly Visual flight Rules (VFR). VFR means that the plane did not file a Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) plan that needs to be approved showing the path the plane would be taking to their destination. VFR is flying basically by visual means, you will of course still use some instruments but ultimately the pilot is navigating and piloting the aircraft. VFR which is more commonly used in smaller planes with less instruments and pilots who may not be instrument graded. VFR should really only be used in good weather since it really relies on the eyesight of the pilot to navigate and avoid dangers. It is more strenuous to get a IFR flight since they need to be filed and approved and sometimes they can cause delays in take offs because you often are in a long queue of other IFR flights.
It appears from watching the video that the plane took off with a VFR clearance and confused the ATC because they don't know what the plane is trying to do. Later when the plane then asks for an IFR clearance the ATC is pretty upset because you are supposed to do that on the ground and they don't usually give those to planes already in flight. The real problem for the ATC is that the plane claims to be too heavy to land at the runways at the airport so he can't make them land and figure out clearances. Big/Heavy planes like that are not made to make tight turns and patterns that they usually use for VFR flights that have to remain low and out of the way around certain classes of flight zones for bigger planes. Flight Zones are basically restricted areas of flight rules tightly controlled by ATC's around airports and other sensitive airspace's. If the plane was in IFR they could have them join other large planes in a more typical holding pattern or given them headings to fly out towards Athens.
So what people think happened was that the pilot was trying to avoid a delay in taking off by asking for a VFR takeoff which doesn't need to be filed, and then later asking for their IFR once they were in the air that they could fly to Athens. The ATC was trying to figure that out while making the plane fly in safe directions and avoid all the traffic around it which was difficult because its doesn't maneuver so easily. It just couldn't make the turns that the ATC wanted in safe directions.
I am sorry if that wasn't very helpful or wrong but let know if you have any questions.
God, that was stressful just to watch!
The jet didn’t really cause chaos, it was already there he was just flying through it lol
This guy is putting a lot of pressure on the controller and creating opportunities for lethal mistakes. Really shameful.
Caroline Yeh a few years back, there was GA aircraft trying to land at a busy field with lots of commercial (fast) traffic. They kept bringing her around, offering runway changes, etc and over time she got more flustered. At some point she tried to make a hard, high bank turn to line up with a runway - which IIRC turned fatal when the a/c stalled and the low speed, low altitude left zero recovery room.
When the controller was telling these guys to turn hard because they were going to hit another a/c, it reminded me of that.
I thought he was trying to depart? Controller has him circling the area like he's waiting to land.
Controller somehow got the idea he was trying to do pattern work / touch and go (in a fully loaded business jet).
I watched the low approach. The flight crew were genuinely not easy to work with and had serious attitude.
BFI is a Class D under an 1100' Bravo shelf. They also were in a Global6000, not a Gulfstream.
Busted RNT Class D, SEA Class B, near miss UA753 and VS789, pop up NAT IFR, departed opposite direction... colossal cluster.
One of the pilots sounds Dutch.
Correct?
The response to needing 5 hours to burn fuel should have been holding instructions. Make him waste the fuel. The pilot can always pickup his toys and leave as in go vfr out of the bravo and get a plan.
Fuel dumping is something to be done only when there's no other options (i.e. an emergency or a situation in which the pilots deem that they must return to the airport ASAP), it's a rather dangerous operation, traffic at or bellow FL of the aircraft dumping must be alerted not to fly in the area among other considerations like economical and environmental.
@Javier, he didn't mean dump the fuel. He meant stay in a hold a burn off the fuel.
@@micahgreene4573 Oh... Ok! My bad
@@javiercaselli That's assuming the aircraft in question is equipped to be able to dump fuel. Not always the case with smaller aircraft.
It’s legal to pick up an IFR in the air with departure. It’s quite common to ask tower for VFR departure to say the North, and then pick up your filed route with departure. Now you can ask for closed pattern, and then leave the pattern, and not tell tower what’s going on.
ATC mixes up callsign, calling Vistajet 848... @4:40
This conversation got me annoyed. I'm not sure why, it just did.
Vistajet doesn't even have Gulfstreams, it's a Global Express - change the title.
The facts are available by listening to the feed from Ground. An IFR clearance to Athens was given and flight plan filed. Vistajet 868 asked to depart via the opposite runway due to the aircraft being too heavy for the active runway (obstacles on departure flight path). Ground agreed this could be done only as a VFR departure. When transferred to the Tower frequency the ground controlled did not pass on the details to them correctly. Consequently, the Tower thought they intended to reland. The aircraft was then asked to manoeuvre in an area too small for it due to it’s heavy weight and minimum speed.
ATC needed to chill and listen rather than flying the plane from the ground.
For the know-nothings, how did ATC switch from having the Gulfstream depart to land again? ATC says thy can't give IFR clearance airborne. Does that mean the Gulfstream had not cleared a plan before takeoff?
i don't know about clearances where they are, but flying here in australia you talk to clearance delivery before you even get your taxi clearance
Awful planning by the pilot(s).
Props to ATC.
Sorry, but as a civilian I am totally confused. It almost sounds like the old "Who's On First" comedy routine?
👍
What a cluster fuck, someone gimmie a parachute...
Could someone explain for the lay people exactly what they are trying to pull here? And why
It sounds like they had some maintenance issue they wanted to flight check. They fully were prepared to head over the Atlantic before departure (assuming everything worked), instead of picking up the clearance on the ground, or taking off with less fuel and ops checking it, they pulled this BS stunt.
The fuel load, I don't know?? Love to get a look at their MCDU...
@@JimLatp Not at all. Sounds like he was trying to jump the queue on departure. Took off VFR on picked his IFR en-route to avoid the delay on his departure if he would have tried to pick his IFR on the ground.
So judging by the fact that it is a Gulfstream we can assume his PAX were sensitive to time and he was probably looking at a hefty delay if he tried to pick up his IFR on the ground. A lot of coordination goes on for international IFR and to avoid it he just departed VFR and attempted to pick his IFR up in the air.
@@JacobKrustchinsky yup. Sounded like private jet arseholery at it's finest. Reminds me of the private jet pilot complaining about the delay leaving Spirit of St Louis airport because there was a burning plane and dying pilot that they were dealing with at the time.
And now I understand why Kennedy never even lets planes leave their gate without a flight plan at hand, because down the events, it just gets more and more stressful.
I also don't understand why they let that Vistajet fly close to all the other arriving and departing traffic all the time, instead of putting him into a holding pattern away from everything, until they have their IFR clearance.
@IroAppe it was ATC error. Flight plan was filed. ATC never got from ground control the planned departure VFR then switch to instruments
That poor controller. You can hear the frustration in his voice. Probably thought there was about to be a DISASTER on his watch.
It is one of those situations where you can see mistakes and circumstances pile up
"That poor controller" is the idiot that fucked up in the first place.
Ground controller didn't pass on to tower when he handed them off that they were filing IFR in the air. So the Tower was completely out of the loop, thinking the Vistajet was staying in the pattern. What resulted was the Charlie Foxtrot you see here.
When ATC told a departing plane to fly base I was a bit confused because I usually only hear that instruction given for planes arriving. But the pilot copied the instruction and started flying a south base even though he was departing north, so I figured everything must be okay. However when ATC said that 686 is overrunning their turn for final I almost crapped my pants. Then when ATC calls the flight 848 at 4:34 I did a facepalm. But I have to keep in mind that a bad day in the office for me means that someone can’t print or the coffee pot was empty. A bad day in the office for a controller means that people die. It’s such an incredibly stressful job that there’s a maximum age limit for new controllers, just like there’s a max age limit to join most (if not all) branches of the military. I commend the pilot of 868 for staying calm and being polite. He had every right to be upset about the danger he was put into but he was professional enough to know that his main priority was the safety of the souls onboard, and that there will be plenty of time to complain later.
I noted that about half way through 868 switches who is talking on the radio. I wonder if the first pilot was worried he'd loose his professional calm with ATC.
ATC: fly runway heading (140), there is traffic off to your left at 10 o'clock moving to 11 o'clock.
VISTAJET 868: roger, can we fly heading 040?
you neglected the altitude...