“I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it. But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises.” - Darth Traya
@@zincwing4475 When she said that, I think she.. gave herself up in some sorta way, and she knew she was doomed with her teachings the way she approched them, as she was flawed within her own morals and teachings, becaus of what she experienced, but the exile wasnt, (s)he was new to all of this and could learn from the mistakes Kreia did and like this echo stuff, can teach all we Kreia tought her to the masses. Kreia was looking for a place to die ultimately, and it was the same one where this game more or less started, at its core that is. So not only doesnt she get her way of dealing with the issues in the galaxy, but also she gave up upon herself and wishes to find peace in knowing her teachings were true and that she can set herself to rest by that.
Kreai was truly a remarkable sith/philosopher in her own right, but how would she even begin to destroy the Force when it could just endlessly heal itself?
@@WarriorOfGod-8 How do you kill anything that regenerates? One option is to outpace its regeneration, a grinding battle of attrition. Another is to starve it, as with nothing to draw upon it shall wither and die. Kriea sought the final, most difficult, and most beneficial for the greater galaxy. A Single, deadly strike that would kill the force before its regeneration could kick in. To tear out its beating heart and decapitate in a single stroke. One that would free the galaxy.
"I'm not teaching you to be a Jedi. I am teaching you to be human." This line alone says so much about her and makes her one of the best written characters in star wars. What does it mean to be human in terms of a Jedi if it means betraying the very thing you are? I absolutely love the fact that she's thinking bigger than just being a Jedi/Sith, or galactic conquest. She wants to break free from the very thing that connects everything, the force itself. She knows it has a will and that will is not her own.
@@ambushbob5383 She wasn't like that though. She says either the Exile dies, and Kreia goes on to rid the galaxy of the Force, or Kreia dies and the Exile goes on to rebuild the order. It was a battle of philosophies, one to decide the fate of the galaxy. In the end, she is happy that the Exile won, as it proved her teachings made a better person than she was. Of course some of this may be interpretation since KOTOR 2 and especially the ending had a lot of cut content, but most of what I said were direct from Kreia's mouth.
@@chrischin_94 she was one of the sith triumvirate she killed a lot of innocent people before the final confrontation. She gives sudo intellectual speeches about freedom from the force imposing its will yet she does exactly what the force does, imposing ones will onto others. She's the worst a hypocrite and a murderer.
Exile: "I guess you are right, the weather is nice." Kreia: "You are a fool to side with me so easily. When you walk your own path, you might find that the weather is not as great as you were lead to believe, but your momentary suffering will bring you greater strength.
Exile: "Fuck the weather. It's hot, it's uncomfortable." Kreia: "Seasons come and go. Without he summer there is no winter. Without the extremes to test the survival of those who endure them, there can be no peace. Take to the suffering like a friend. Look into it like a mirror. You're foolish to think of it as a friend, but take from it what you need to understand it."
Master Kreia,you are but a fool - you took something so complicated and big as a climate of a whole region, and simplified it with your lack of insight to the mere observation that it is nice. 😂
slenderkid2003 Yes, she harbored so much depth and cryptic wisdom. I have yet to see a character as intricately & impeccably written as her in all of Star Wars.
Her character seemed purposively contrived, like the moral limitations of KOTOR. Both are probably a limitation of technology and software, however, rather than knowledge. We have yet to see a game that more accurately reflects the complexity of actual morality. Introducing Kreia as a foil to the clear cut moral system allows the developers to address it, perhaps the only way possible, without actually addressing it.
One of the single greatest characters in Star Wars history, to say nothing of one of the greatest female characters in all fiction. Truly the greatest loss of the EU purge.
Or they could just have... Y'know.. A strong female lead that undergoes at least some form of adversity.. Jeez all that friggin talk about overcoming such things yet they have 0 clue on how to portray it. I think stubbing my toe is more life threatening than what Ray went through.. She was practically a god and what minute bit of 'suspense' that could be reasonably observed was merely there for her own entertainment.. At the cost of the audience's! Like for real.. if ur gonna do an OP MC then just stick with it, give it a reasonable background. Not this whole.. "Oh that thing? That (insert plot device)? It's Real? *immediately becomes a god* "I'm literally blowing things up with my hands and creating life with my mind! but I still need to train in the forest for 5 minutes to show that.. I'm just a novice and have no idea what I'm doing!"
"She drained the Force from them, giving them the choice between the Force and death. They chose death." Well, technically she gave them the choice between the Force and life without it. They died because they clinged to the Force as it was stripped from them and they couldn't live without it.
@Agent J Indeed, all they desired was there mere pleasure and power from the force. This is similar to almost every Sith, sadly, with even ones with relatively good intentions such as Anakin Skywalker are soon consumed with there on power or hatred for another. This only leads to pain or the need for more power, similar to an addiction.
To say they desired the mere pleasure and power from the force is not fair to any force user. Almost all Jedi and Sith are living intrinsically with the force from their earliest memories. For a force sensitive living without the force would be like living without air. If you were given the choice to continue living without breathing, even if you believed that you could go on without air, you would either instinctually continue breathing or succumb to the pain of living without air after having lived with it so long. That is why the choice that the exile made was so rare, the exile was literally one in a galaxy.
@@androsforever500 Except, it wasn't a choice. What the Exile experienced, was pretty much trauma: mutilation because of being unable to process what she'd just gone through. And, throughout the game, we see her recovery- not quite the same she'd once been, but at least a shadow, an echo of her former self.
A true Dark Lord of the Sith, one that created the question of Force being the greatest threat to the Galaxy. She put the idea that Force will constantly seek balance between the Light and Dark side, which in turn create wars in the Galaxy killing trillions over the years. She made the Force into a Lovecraftian Horror rather a natural force that binds the Galaxy which was viewed by us. In a horrifying sense she was right, it literally took the birth of Anakin Skywalker to restore balance, but it took several thousand years of war and death to do so, and even then there was still wars between the Light and Dark sides for centuries later.
Anakin didn't balance it like you said. He fell to the dark side and shifted the balance to the dark. Then Luke didn't do that ether. He shifted it to the light. So no balance was ever achieved.
@@heindrichpepler709 well he did get rid of the jedi and the sith and they were the main 2 things keeping the force from being balanced so he almost did he just didn't know about the sith in the unknown region and after he died luke started the new jedi order thus creating an imbalance again.
ACE THE UNIBEAR At the end of the prequel trilogy, there were two Jedi(Yoda and Kenobi) and two Sith(Palpatine and Vader). Excluding dark jedi and those on the run, balance achieved.
Even Traya, with all her well deserved wisdom, was subject to viewing The Force from a specific angle. Balance is a concept created by the Jedi and Sith but through their countless wars, have tainted the natural life energies of the Living Force. The Cosmic Force cannot be tainted because it is pure and was solely created by The Supreme Maker, Father, Creator, and God of The Celestials.
She is interesting because she doesn’t blindly (sorry Visas Marr) follow any particular dogma. Her advice exposed the weaknesses of both the Jedi and Sith. She should have her own series in which she buys a party barge and HK-47 is her fun-loving, albeit homicidal, butler.
Kreia:"Machine! I recall that i specifically told you to get milk. Why isn't there any in the cargo hold?" HK-47:"Insult: I'm SO sorry master. I know you meatbags need liquids to avoid becoming shrivelled up, leathery corpses, but i assumed that you would find it hard to become any more so."
@@TheRedshirt93 same here. And it would make sense for HK-47 to have an insult function in his programming; Revan most likely would've added it in to mess with Malak, and it stuck ever since.
@@Cykeys This. It conflicts directly with wu wei - the Taoist concept of "inactive action" something you see the Jedi practice many times both in the movies and EU. Also many fans criticize (wrongly, I believe) the Jedi for this. It's also something Kreia seems to be a master of.
Kreai was truly a remarkable sith/philosopher in her own right, but how would she even begin to destroy the Force when it could just endlessly heal itself?
Kreia: "Yes, and what are they without the Force? Take the greatest Jedi Knight, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it, depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman - or a man. A child."―Atton Rand and Kreia, having a friendly conversation about the Jedi Exile on Telos IV[src]
And what happens when you take a blaster away from someone who is proficient with it? Isn't that person relying on the blaster as well? We all rely on our brains to function. Does it make us weak as well
@@MrBiizer It's not that the force is elitist, it's that the force becomes an integral part of *what* a force sensitive is. A Jedi could can train their skills with both a gun and the force, but the difference was that if you lose your gun it's not really a big deal, but losing the force is that same as losing your leg, or your eyes, or your arm.
@@dragonmaster1500 Visas Marr, and other Miraluka actually use the Force as their eyes. An entire race for whom cutting them from the Force is literally crippling their vision.
yeah, and whats a professional runner? hack off their legs, and what remains? they rely on them, depend on them, more than they know. Yes, and whats a human without their brain? remove their nervous centers, and what remains? they rely on them, depend on them, more than they know. Yes, and whats a planet without the atoms that make it up? remove all the matter, and what remains? you can say this about literally *anything.* Jedi relying on the force isnt any different than me relying on my thumbs.
Gotta tag ever single one of Papito Quinn’s videos and The Philosophy of Kreia. They give so much more explanation and depth to this character and her philosophies
That dude's Kreia video is good but his other Star Wars analyses are borderline deranged. And his Twitter is gone but if you saw it back when it was up, he absolutely does consider his interpretation to be definitive.
I love the theory that Kreia is actually Arren Kae, the mother of the Handmaiden that joins you if you play as a male character in KotOR II. There's a lot that hints at it if you look deeply - one of Revan's teachers WAS Arren Kae, after all, and Arren Kae died during the Mandalorian Wars. Who's to say that Arren Kae didn't die in the Mandalorian Wars, only to be reborn as "Kreia", much like Anakin Skywalker 'died' on Mustafar and was reborn as Darth Vader. Not to mention that Arren Kae was known for her beauty, and Atton says of Kreia "she may have been beautiful once..." And the Handmaiden never saw the face of her mother, so she wouldn't have recognized Kreia as her mother.
I really wish it was, and possibly it's implied, but there's no canonical or explicit evidence in the game that it was true. I'd still buy it and I'm happy with it. Arren Kae and Kreia are treated as separate characters in the few mentions there are of her. All the possibility for them being the same are inferred by moments like Arren Kae being called beautiful (and her concept art is GORGEOUS!) and Atton later says Kreia may have been beautiful "once." If he's serious or facetious its hard to tell. Kreia and Kae sound similar, but aren't the same, etc. I'd still love it if it were true though.
Biggest reason I don’t understand this theory is because there is no allusion in dialogues between Kreia and the Handmaiden, you’d think if your mother was in a room next door on a ship she’d look out for you or something, there is nothing of a familial relationship at all between them
@@CommanderOfRussia1 I highly doubt it..since if he would have been aware of her existance..he would have been aware of Nihilus and the consequence of overwhelming power..yet he was not.. he always sought more power and that caused his downfall.. he clearly was ignorant of old sith lord since he was overconfident in his master plan(wich succeded where many before failed).
@@thargs9184 In the Plagueis novel he tells Sidious of Vititate (page 181), and I can almost guarantee he knew of the ancient sith before him. Sith of the Bane line still took the teachings of the ancient sith just not their practices. Also, Nihlus didn’t have overwhelming power, he was just controlled by his hunger. Outside of the force drain he wasn’t skilled in much else. If anything, I’d say Vititate had overwhelming power, and that’s who I’d say Sidious modeled part of his reign after.
Kreia was right about the force being the center of a lot of conflict that happens in Star Wars. But I can’t agree with her method of wanting to destroy it because of how connected it is to everyone and the repercussions that can come from its violent absence. But that’s just what I think.
Exactly but we must consider the nature of the sentient beings too. Try to imagine now that the Force is dead now, a new life without the Force, something will change? Galactic wars, death, and factions still exist because is the nature of many sentient beings.
I consider Rogue One a prime example of how the force controls conflict. Everyone on Scarif dies just as the force no longer requires them to do their jobs. One by one they go after their objective is over.
@lcyw20 The Force is a plot element for George Lucas to focus the action a on a farmboy. Seriously though, it is pretty vague. However, that might be a good thing. If you are a fan of the Elder Scrolls games, you might know that even in a magical world with proven gods, there can still be religious debate and conflict. As such, having different groups have different ideas about the Force, even while confirming its existence, seems logical.
@@CollinMcLean considering several of her lessons revolve around learning to impose your will on others without physical effort and relying on your own strength, I'd say anarchist is a better term.
imo, she's more of a force radical centrist tbh. she learned from both jedi and sith and even grey jedi (who btw are like force moderate centrists lmao), and saw that they relied too much on the force as their resource
@@hajagameznstuff6956 I would consider her a Force anti-determinist...she felt that the force striped the free-will from life thus creating a deterministic galaxy where all things were "Fated" to do the force's bidding, and she sought to break that control. I believe her philosophy is heavily based on our IRL concept of causality. Physics is the literal force that binds all things to it's will, and if one studies it closely enough, one can imagine differing "Wills" if the numerical constants of physics were altered, a part of the many worlds or multiverse theory is that the constants of physics seem arbitrary, a slight change in gravitational constants or the specific nature of particles could have resulted in a universe of nothing but clouds of hydrogen gas...I suppose the question she was asking all of us would be, "Is there a truth beyond reality, beyond the physical and perceptible, beyond what is set, beyond the universe, in the realm of seeming contradiction due to our reliance on that which imprisons us, of the infinite and null, that is both everywhere and nowhere?" (I think the other two in the Sith triumvirate are cheeky nods to her beliefs and actions. Nihilus and Sion, from the words Nihilism and Scion, a belief in the absence of meaning and a piece of a plant cut off to be planted in new soil or a descendant, a new life out of an old family) (For a more fun interpretation, check the first minute or two of the "History of the world, I guess" video on youtube...)
@@CollinMcLean She's not a nihilist, nihilism is the belief in nothing, while Kreia did acknowledge that the force existed, but that it should be destroyed. She's rather an existentialist, and wants to get rid of the force that gives slave morality(jedi) or moral corruption(sith) to its followers. Kreia was obsessed in becoming 'independent' of the force's will, while still being able to hold its abilities. The jedis follow the force's will, which she despises, and the sith use the force as how they see fit, but are corrupted due to the nature of the force itself - he who does not follow the will of the force becomes immoral, and slowly mental/physically declines due to the natyre of the dark side of the force. Kreia wanted to use the force with the intentions of the sith, while still maintaining health and moral values like the jedi. (Sadly this is impossible in the Star wars universe except for the exile) and this was why she wished to kill the force.
You know, I always thought Kreia was right. The force is sentient, and sentient beings have their own goals and philosophies. When an otherworldly entity imposes its plans onto you, it's stripping you of your free will and forcing you to rely on it for strength. I'd honestly love it if a non-force sensitive discovered powers beyond the force. Imagine this: someone finds a way to completely cut themselves off from the force, meaning even abilities such as force push, force persuasion, and force lightning have zero effect; and they proceed to mop the floor with both Jedi and Sith by unveiling some grander power that doesn't impose its presence on you.
That or by understanding the agenda of the force you could try to mitigate its influence. Personally, I think that the agenda of the force must be collective will of force sensitives that were strong enough to become one with the force.
@@ThePrinceofPlots i def agree that the immunity part breaks the universe writing wise, but having a source of power that rivals the force except it has no will is interesting, it could reshuffle perspectives in the jedi amd sith
When you think about it, Kriea is right to want the force dead. Think about this? Who causes the most trouble, who are the big players in the Star Wars Galaxy? Force-Sensitives. Sidious, Vader, Luke, Yoda, Dooku, Maul, Ahsoka, all of them and more are guided by the force. And they are all reliant on it. Yes, Sidious uses Empire technology but he still uses force lightning and force choke. Vader would have been hated by Kreia as Vader believes nothing is more powerful than the force and Vader is the chosen one. If you cut off the force, There'd be no Force-Sensitives, they would be people with point laser sticks that would gunned down rather easily because they don't have the force to rely on. This means the Galaxy would have been put on an even playing field, relying on techology and other such things. So long as the Force exists, so does the conflicts. It will go to Kylo Ren and Rey, it will go further beyond that probably for eternity. Maybe Kreia has a point: The Force is relied upon too often and both Jedi and Sith are slaves to it.
Killing the force as a manipulative deity? Good. However, there might be unforseen consequences. I don't even know if Surik was completely cut off, but would she die? Personally I would first look for another way to stop its control. To stabilize it, maybe? Or to merge the dark/light side into a fully neutral, apathic force like gravity? That might not work, and some would try to stop it, of course. But I would keep Surik as a plan b.
There are many times where a jedi or a sith has been cut off from the force and survived just fine while they werent anywhere near as powerful they are still sometimes deadly in their own right without the force cause they still have to train their body to use the force as well
Kreia is the only character in Star Wars that has ever strived for any kind of universal liberation. That makes her the only good guy in the entire franchise
Kreia is the best female character in Star Wars and is Darth Revan former Jedi Master. I wished she could have meet Anakin the Chosen One and get her opinion on the prophecy and Darth Vader redemption. Kriea could be the canon Sith lady named Tannis in Rebels.
In a way she gave her opinion about anakin. The sith, plagues and sidious, tipped the force to the dark, the force tipped it back in balance. This is what she hated. No matter what beings did, the force did its own thing, creating endless war. She would have hated anakin. He is the embodiment of the problem. Since the beginning, light and dark had warred. Even when the jedi thought they had finally won, banes descendants where warring with the light. Finally the sith where on the cusp of victory and what did the force do, creates anakin. The force is God, and kreia is lucifer from John Milton's paradise lost
"One who has fallen so far, and done so much evil does not deserve redemption. In a way, such a turning from one's nature is cowardly, a betrayal of the self... Yes, redemption is merely a form of spiritual collapse, a fall few recover from."
Even Luke Skywalker came into a similar realization of the Force. I think it was when he faced Abeloth in Mortis, he saw how the Force not only had a will of its own... But he perceived the indifference of it as well. How the Jedi and Sith always believed, in their own way, that the Force was aligned with them but in reality, the Force doesn't really care about either. But he didn't conclude to outright kill the Force lol
There is a single major flaw with this analysis, as with nearly every analysis of Kreia: she didn't seek to kill the Force (not during the events of KotOR 2 surrounding the Exile at least). Kreia says it herself just before she wipes Mical's memory (thus, one of the only times we can be sure she was being truthful) - she knew the damage that had been done to the galaxy and the growing echo, and she wanted to stop it. (what she specifically says is to the effect of "I? You think that I wish for death on such a scale? I do not want to win our battle like this."). What Mical does realize (in his mind at least) is that she wants to kill the Exile at the end of the journey to prevent the death of the Force (and thus all life), not to kill it. More importantly, her training of the Exile isn't meant as simply a way to get her to kill the other Sith Lords and find/kill the Jedi Masters. Kreia wanted the Exile to best her as well, so that she could die and the Exile could spread her own teachings of living without the Force to others (as the Exile is everything Kreia wants - someone who can turn away from the Force's will and still live despite being 100% cut off from it). That is her main plan; having the Exile surpass her, prove her wrong, and bring to the table what is essentially a third option when it comes to the Force. The backup plan is killing the Exile, which would also allow for the Force to survive (thus not killing everyone in existence) and for her herself to try and train others in a similar fashion (though she already admits during the course of the game that she feels she can't succeed at that). The third option (neither Kreia/Malachor nor the Exile dying) is the unacceptable failure, as that would lead to the death of all life in the galaxy, forever (a similar fate to that of what Nihlius would bring upon the galaxy if he were never stopped).
Hell yeah. Keep up the Kotor content.The games are by themselves amazing. Stories are written perfectly. Soundtracks are beautiful. They delved into and described the force and Jedi/Sith like never before
Kreia is SPECTACULAR as a character! She is the MOST mysterious interesting character in gaming history there NEEDS to be a TV series about Knights of the Old Republic. At 10:33 and 5:05 who drew that art?
It's been a few years now since I placed Kreia as my favorite SW character. She's complex, rich and fascinating; and most importantly, all her choices make sense to her and have a depth that is palpable.
I think the biggest flaw in Kreia’s philosophy is she assumed the universe and life itself could exist without the force. It couldn’t, in the Star Wars universe at least. Trying to kill the force is like trying to kill space or gravity, it’s an intrinsic part of existence. Sure you can remove it certain areas, even manipulate it. But take it away entirely and you unmake existence itself. The force doesn’t just bind everything together, it comes from everything, living and nonliving, that’s exactly how it binds everything together in the first place. Just my thoughts on it at least.
She kinda reminds me of Madara Uchiha from Naruto. Both wanted to break free from the conflict and powers that their worlds relied on in favor of a greater reality. They both failed but their ambitions did not go unheard, nor were they entirely disproven. In every sympathetic villain, there is an ounce of truth to their beliefs, and truth that must be recognized and embraced so nobody else has to suffer the hardships that they did. The world is messy and while it’s easy to hate a villain, if you peel back the layers you’ll realize that most are just people who were broken and wronged. While their actions aren’t acceptable, you can’t help but feel pity, wishing you could help make their livers better, if just by a little bit.
At least Kreia didn't die like Madara did. Madara's death was such a cop out move that was made only because Kishimoto screwed up and made him far too powerful to kill (which, in turn, was because he didn't give a sh*t about how Saskura was developed)
I cannot blame her for her hatred of the Force. I too see that the Force itself is extremely bad by it's nature and it would be better if it did not exist at all.
She didn't even know. Apathy is the death of the force. A being unswayed by the force is the death of the force. Her hatred of the force gives the force life. Her own teachings are an oxymoron. Apathy is not only death, its the death of the force.
The thing is that wasn't actually Kreia who SAID 'Apathy is death'. If I remember correctly, that was just an apparition taking the form of Kreia in a Sith tomb, so we can't take it's words as a reflection of her philosophy at all.
Considering how Star Wars plays "a long time ago" presumably in the same universe as our real world... could it be that she was actually successful and due to her actions after "a long time" the force eventually did die and that's how our reality became the way it is, even though she didn't live to see it? There's some food for thought. ^^
That's what I believe. At some point in the SW universe, someone picked up what she put down and killed The Force. We are what's left. Or possibly, we are what was before and continued to be, and the SW Universe just ended a long time ago early in human history on this planet. Somehow ancient early humans ended up in another galaxy and spread to prominence on that technology, and we have been isolated way out here in the Milky Way the whole time.
Interesting theory, but the yuuzhan vong kind of break that theory...in a sense. Depending on how you view the Force, Obi-Wan states it binds the GALAXY together. The Vong were extra-galactic and void of the Force. So if you think about it, philosophically, does the Force bind the entire universe, with some exceptions, or just that particular Galaxy?
that would mean her teachings would also be responsible for settings humans/civilization back..hundreds of thousands of years if not more. In all honesty. If that were the case, id rather not know her name because that would be uh... pretty agrivating lol like, for as much bad as the sw universe has, it has a lot of good as well
@@davedavidson8208 I don't quite get your point. How is the absence of the force setting an entire civilization back in any way? If anything we in the real-life seem to be advancing far more rapidly than the Star Wars races, who've barely had any technological advances for millenia.
I hear a lot of "best in Star Wars" about her. In my opinion? She's one of the best mentors and villains in fiction itself. She had lessons that, despite the fictional setting in which she resides, apply well to our own world and every day life. Not to mention, the voice actress who portrayed her was simply phenomenal.
I used to blast Bodies by Drowning Pool while doing the Trayus Academy because by that point in the game I was so powerful that I was able to just obliterate them. And the funny thing is, the lyrics actually perfectly match the plot of the game. "Nothing wrong with me" - everyone's been saying there's something wrong with the Exile for the entire game. "You wanted in and now you're here, driven by hate, consumed by fear" - the Jedi who went to war with Revan and Malak, fell to the dark side, and are now there in the Trayus Academy, facing you. And if you're wondering what insane build I used, it was a light-side Guardian / Master build with Force Stasis and Force Storm. Or, as I like to call it, "Freeze 'em and fry 'em." Guardian gets you the lightsaber skills and feats, and Master gets you the Force powers and Force points when you are actually high enough level to use them effectively.
Oh my goodness, I was watching this because she is one of my all time favorite characters but completely got excited when I saw that you used one of my photography edits of Kreia/Traya. It's at 8:30. All that aside, this is a very great and in depth video on one of the most interesting characters in the whole Star Wars universe, very well done.
Just finished my "rebuke the force" play through of kotor2, the way that I wanted to spin the tale was that of an Exile that agrees with kreia, to find freedom from the force to never make a choice that wasn't based on what I wanted I tried my hardest to maintain a grey area but not by making good or evil descisions for the sake of it but by simply making the most human choices, opportunity, selfishness, passion, love, hate, anger, happiness to not be held back by the light or controlled by the dark. To simply be human felt so free. To explore the relationships between characters while not striving for any light or dark cookies but simply making the descisions that I would make as a human disconnected from the force with no incentive. My choices became unpredictable even to me and felt so very natural. It was one of the most enjoyable play throughs iv ever had in that game.
I was thinking of trying that myself, though given my knowledge of the game's design, I feel it would be difficult for me to put that out of my mind and focus on just being a human in the game world. But what you are describing sounds oddly similar to the Zen concept of Mushin, a shortening of mushin no shin or "Mind with no-heart/mind" (Heart/mind is a single character in the Japanese text) a state in which both emotion and thought are removed and one acts in accordance with no pattern, sort of tapping into the nature of the self removed from ego. It's often referenced in regard to martial arts kata, repeating them until they become ingrained to the point of not having to think about them to execute them. That seems to be what you are doing, putting the mechanics of the force and game out of your mind and playing as an IRL human would in the fantasy setting...but that's just my two cents...lol...do with it what you will...
Even without the force thier would still be lives lost and conflict. Kreia thought it was solely the force to blame, but it was rather the decisions of individuals to use it and depend solely on it and they chose to not live life at all and have other talents. The domatic nature that people viewd upon the force is what led to arrogance and power seeking and not simply using it in conjunction with ones other abilities.
Feminists: STAR WARS HAD NO STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS BEFORE REY Me: *shows them this video of a woman who legit aspired to destroy the force entirely and actually found a way to do so*
Theres nothing wrong with wanting to make a new female character. There is something wrong with switching writers and directors every single film when you haved a *planned* trilogy though.. And this is what makes the sequels so lack luster. Also kathleen Kennedy exerting her will over the productions. Ive never seen the infamous hoardes of feminists you speak of though during g my time around the star wars community. I feel like youd rather blame a group, than the one person who actually influenced it.
I don't get why studios are so obsessed with trilogies... a friggin goliath like Disney can afford to pump out a whole 12 movie saga.. Gawd just get the guys who did avengers to go do it... they managed about 20 or so.. And oh look it doesn't even have to vaguely come together in a sensible way with regards to a movie that came out a decade earlier! but... I guess creativity isn't a movie studio's forte anymore.. how do these people even get hired? It's gotta be some sick shit behind closed doors and on camera for the blackmail bookshelf.
@Corvus Morve Well I think their complaint isn't so much as a strong female character, but a strong female character that is in the lead role. (e.g. A character like Lenneth Valkyrie or maybe Maple. I don't watch that many movies so.. idk.)
She tried to kill the Force, but didn't expect it to strike back. Darth Plagueis tried to reach out and tell the galaxy the Sith have returned, and look at what happened to him. The Force will always prevail, and remember the Force wants balance.
She was an unsung hero, trying to save everyone from further wars between two extreme groups constantly and endlessly at war. By deafening them to the force, there would be far less with regard to galactic atrocities
Well done! I hope you make more content surrounding KoTOR 2. If you do, I'd be happy to get you some raw footage or if you'd rather record them yourself, I can supply you with any one of my almost 500 save files to get whatever you need. Anything to show more people the brilliance of this game.
Id love a prequel which shows her training Revan and the Exile, and her controversial teachings, how she left the order. Imagine like a lost missions where Kreia takes them to a "Jedi" planet, however it turns out that the Jedi did real shade there and the Jedi council had tried to cover it up. Kreia would be like Ashoka, vindicated but not heard, and would leave the order. Devasted by her departure Revan secretly harbours resentment ang anger to the council but this isn't why he ultimately joins the Mandalorion wars
There is a fanfiction of a Human from Earth enters the Star Wars galaxy during the Clone Wars; "Strange Surroundings" if I remember the title correctly. Not only does he have no Midichlorians so he has no connection to the Force, but White Blood Cells, our immune system, actually destroy Midichlorians. Krieia would have killed to have met us Earthlings.
Darth Treya had a good idea: but, there's too many things that are not understood about the Force. It was far, far too soon to cast ultimate judgement on it.
I finished replaying KOTOR 2 last week. As always the ending left me a little dead inside. Even more this time, as I played dark side force storm spam for instant gratification. Still couldn't bring myself to gas my companions. We're not the baddies, Hans. Well, we are, but not that bad... Gray Jedi though... Those I'd gladly gas. What I miss in KOTOR 2 is a clear path where you ally with Kreia and merrily go on the quest to fuck up the Force once and for all. And we would have peace...
@@lanesmith1465 Someone hasn't seen the ending where you actually join with Kreia. The Exile goes on to teach a new order of Force-sensitives that don't actually rely on the Force, and ends up destroying the Force without killing literally everything.
The force uses us all, it has a will and has a destined for us. This tells me that the force is no evil nor good just a ventriloquist. The force is the one who chooses who's evil or who is not. And also who's chosen. So in reality the ventriloquist is toying with pleasure and agony
I would actually say Kreia is wrong on this (in fact, I'd say anyone who claims the Force has a will in the first place is wrong). The Force is like the ocean - it has no will, to effort, no desire. Whatever it might seem to have to those who observe it, the reality is that it simply exists, and whatever is done to it/within it will cause ripples that affect other things. Nothing more. In that way, it's actually more terrifying, because no one in that universe can ever really be sure that the Force DOESN'T have a will, because they can't fully see everything involved in it (as it's essentially an infinite ocean).
I can see where she comes from. The fact that the Force is largely responsible for so much bloodshed and atrocities is largely overlooked. I still don't hold it solely responsible. Not all choices are not predetermined.
@@schnarre0 While I find the removal of the force interesting, I wonder if the problem isn't truly the Force as much as those empowered by it. The whole "power corrupts" is said a lot but it doesn't really cover the whole scope of the idea.
I miss the predisney days of star wars. I've sort deep dove into star wars recently and dear god do I hate what star wars has become. Pandering over good writing. I miss the days writers actually cared about the source
Before the war that split the Jeedai Order into the Light and the Dark, the Force was whole and all was pretty calm. It is said that the Force is essentially a living being. So when the Jedi and the Sith both broke it into light and dark, they essentially severed a living thing in two. What living being do you know could survive being split in two and not want to fuck with those people in a way to right that wrong? If the Jeedai had stayed the way they were, we wouldn't have had these fucking wars to begin with. Honestly, the biggest failings of both Orders is their own conceptions
Somewhere in Legends, they do mention a planet where both Dark Side users and Light Side users learned about the Force, but the Light Side users eventually saw the Dark Side as evil and started a war against those who used it. Then the very ancient Jedi did the same when they found Dark Side users in their midst.
She is a tragic character. She learned all that there is about the Jedi and understood they were lacking in their understanding of the Force. She became a Sith to learn more about the Force only to learn that the Sith were also lacking, yet in the end she understood the Force manipulated the whole Star Wars Universe so she wanted to sever the Galaxy of the Force, but the Force brought Exile on her way and Kreia lost, and so did her teachings...
Darth Treya is the Best! This is just my opinion, but to me, the ancient Sith Lords are more cooler looking, and more OP than the sith we see in clone wars for some reason. I mean this Darth Treya person uses the force to have three lightsabers floating around her (That’s so cool!!) again, I’ve never seen a Jedi or sith in the prequels do that before, meaning that the ancient sith might be more powerful? 🤔
Kreia was powerful. But not one of the all time greats. Telekinetic lightsaber combat is little more than a clever trick. Which is in line with her MO. She is a trickster that uses shock and awe to break her enemies before dispatching them with her modest, yet still well grounded abilities.
Technically, no. After the Rule of Two was theorized by Revan and eventually brought into play by Bane, each generation of Sith was progressively stronger than the last. They illustrate more abilities, but ultimately, they are outclassed with Sidious being the perfect end result to a millenia worth of knowledge passed down.
She is intelligent in a philosophical sense, but what’s funny to me is her shortcomings in common sense. The Rule of Two didn’t exist yet, but even Revan said it was foolish to take on more than one apprentice. I am also curious whether her plan would actually help or hurt the galaxy. As we’ve seen in the old EU, the Yuuzhan vong were also stripped of their force connection and were tormented for generations because of it.
If the Cosmic Force binds together the universe, and the Living Force is responsible for life, then isn't getting rid of the Force itself complete and utter annihilation?
As seen with the vong, life can exist without the force . I think the force just penetrates most life, and the idea that life exists because if the force is just religious propaganda from the Jedi.
It comes across though the game that only those with deep ties to the force will die, such as the Masters in the lightside conclave meeting. So much would die, but plenty would still live. Hell, the exile did it to herself and survivied.
I think the biggest hypocracy of Kreia was that she decided of her own volition (ironically) to make the choice of cutting off the force for everyone else in the galaxy and the woder Universe. Who is she to decide what's best for everyone in the Star Wars Universe? Force or not entire species rely on it more than others, cultures use it as a faith/religion, not everyone is affected by the force in the same way. Especially the non-force sensitive.
I'd like to see more characters who question the Force itself. I've got plenty of disagreements with Kreia's philosophy, but I agree the Force interferes with free will and that needs to be addressed, somehow. I think it forces the dark/light dichotomy and effectively prevents Force-sensitives from picking a different way of life. That's one of the things that the Jedi Order often embodies. They indoctrinate infants, and are often concerned about alternative Force traditions looking a little too "gray". The Dark Side is similar in that it can make people forget their original goals.
The inherent flaw in her ideology was that ultimately, she didn't want the force to be a factor in decision-making. She abhorred the idea of destiny which the force imposed. The flaw there is that even without the force, there is no choice, there is no free will, only the macroscopic illusion of it. Even without the force, your destiny remains.
At the end of the day, Kreia is mostly wrong. She is correct that Force sensitive people being overly reliant on the Force is problematic, since, while specialization is fine, overspecialization is a weakness. But this does not mean that they aren't powerful. I mean, if she seriously tries to argue that the guy who can shoot lighting out of his hands and the guy who can lift a spaceship with his mind aren't powerful then she's wrong. And severing everyone's connection to the Force because of their dependance on it is stupid. It's like saying "People are reliant on being able to see. This is a weakness, because if they go blind then they will be weaker. Clearly the solution is to blind EVERYONE, so that they won't be reliant on seeing." If you are overspecialized then you practice things you're not good at. You don't stop doing what you're good at. Furthermore, while she is correct that Nihilus and Sion rely on the Force to survive, even these two, her two prime examples of Force sensitives being overly reliant on the Force, had other skills. Both were swordsmen and military leaders. While they were both strong with the Force they weren't overspecialized, as they could do other things. So even in her main examples for Force sensitives being overly reliant on the Force she has misjudged the situation. Also, she assumes that, since the Force has a will of its own, that the Force is inherently malevolent, and everything is enslaved by it. But that's not how the Force works. Remember that exchange between Luke and Obi-Wan in A New Hope? "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially. But it also obeys your commands." It isn't just one directing the other. It goes both ways.
After playing Fallen Order, I don't blame this woman. The second sister was essentially brainwashed, and the only reason the Empire was interested in her is because she was force-sensitive. That's it.
I would probably would want to have Kreia as a master. She should of been on the council instead of those 4 jedi that were narcissistic in their views of the force. Also ironic that Atris sees you nothing as a failure as a jedi yet she became a sith that needed to be put down.
![The Incredibly DANGEROUS Assassin Droid that Went Rogue [HK-47]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/TsefbD64QTo/mqdefault.jpg)
“I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it. But perhaps these are the excuses of an old woman who has grown to rely on a thing she despises.”
- Darth Traya
A self deconstruction of a deconstruction.
I would like but it's at 666
@@zincwing4475 When she said that, I think she.. gave herself up in some sorta way, and she knew she was doomed with her teachings the way she approched them, as she was flawed within her own morals and teachings, becaus of what she experienced, but the exile wasnt, (s)he was new to all of this and could learn from the mistakes Kreia did and like this echo stuff, can teach all we Kreia tought her to the masses.
Kreia was looking for a place to die ultimately, and it was the same one where this game more or less started, at its core that is. So not only doesnt she get her way of dealing with the issues in the galaxy, but also she gave up upon herself and wishes to find peace in knowing her teachings were true and that she can set herself to rest by that.
Kreai was truly a remarkable sith/philosopher in her own right, but how would she even begin to destroy the Force when it could just endlessly heal itself?
@@WarriorOfGod-8 How do you kill anything that regenerates? One option is to outpace its regeneration, a grinding battle of attrition. Another is to starve it, as with nothing to draw upon it shall wither and die. Kriea sought the final, most difficult, and most beneficial for the greater galaxy. A Single, deadly strike that would kill the force before its regeneration could kick in. To tear out its beating heart and decapitate in a single stroke. One that would free the galaxy.
Jedi: what are you doing
Sith: what are you doing
Darth Traya: *_I'm going to kill the force_*
*Traya
Death of the Speedforce
I wonder what she would think of the Yuuzhan Vong
Jedi: ⚔️ :Sith
Kreia: *starts touching the force*
Jedi: 👀
Sith: 👀
@@tylerjones7592 Oh dear, do we have to imagine that?
"I'm not teaching you to be a Jedi. I am teaching you to be human." This line alone says so much about her and makes her one of the best written characters in star wars. What does it mean to be human in terms of a Jedi if it means betraying the very thing you are?
I absolutely love the fact that she's thinking bigger than just being a Jedi/Sith, or galactic conquest. She wants to break free from the very thing that connects everything, the force itself. She knows it has a will and that will is not her own.
I for one enjoy the hypocritical villians. Her agree with me or die attitude makes her no better than what she opposes.
@@ambushbob5383 She wasn't like that though. She says either the Exile dies, and Kreia goes on to rid the galaxy of the Force, or Kreia dies and the Exile goes on to rebuild the order. It was a battle of philosophies, one to decide the fate of the galaxy. In the end, she is happy that the Exile won, as it proved her teachings made a better person than she was.
Of course some of this may be interpretation since KOTOR 2 and especially the ending had a lot of cut content, but most of what I said were direct from Kreia's mouth.
@@chrischin_94 she was one of the sith triumvirate she killed a lot of innocent people before the final confrontation. She gives sudo intellectual speeches about freedom from the force imposing its will yet she does exactly what the force does, imposing ones will onto others. She's the worst a hypocrite and a murderer.
@@ambushbob5383 hmm good point lol
Kreia. The woman who could say the weather is nice in the middle of a park and you'd still have to verify that information for yourself.
And no matter what you though, she would still shit on your opinión about it lol
Exile: "I guess you are right, the weather is nice."
Kreia: "You are a fool to side with me so easily. When you walk your own path, you might find that the weather is not as great as you were lead to believe, but your momentary suffering will bring you greater strength.
@@SukatoKjolen 😂😂😂 the accuracy
Exile: "Fuck the weather. It's hot, it's uncomfortable."
Kreia: "Seasons come and go. Without he summer there is no winter. Without the extremes to test the survival of those who endure them, there can be no peace. Take to the suffering like a friend. Look into it like a mirror. You're foolish to think of it as a friend, but take from it what you need to understand it."
Master Kreia,you are but a fool - you took something so complicated and big as a climate of a whole region, and simplified it with your lack of insight to the mere observation that it is nice. 😂
Sith: Screw the Light Side!
Jedi: Screw the Dark Side!
Kreia: Screw The Force entirely...
Jedi and Sith: *Confused Force Sensitive noises*
Yeah pretty much xD
Yes!
🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
😂
She wants to screw the left and right side of the brain, never mind then there would be nothing.
she was one of the most interesting characters in starwars
slenderkid2003 Yes, she harbored so much depth and cryptic wisdom. I have yet to see a character as intricately & impeccably written as her in all of Star Wars.
Hey look 3:24 the Blue eyed Thing from Fantastic Four is a Sith lord!!!!
Gone forever into the Disney void
Her character seemed purposively contrived, like the moral limitations of KOTOR. Both are probably a limitation of technology and software, however, rather than knowledge. We have yet to see a game that more accurately reflects the complexity of actual morality. Introducing Kreia as a foil to the clear cut moral system allows the developers to address it, perhaps the only way possible, without actually addressing it.
Vergere is in Kreia level.
One of the single greatest characters in Star Wars history, to say nothing of one of the greatest female characters in all fiction. Truly the greatest loss of the EU purge.
Espinoth when you want to create a sTrOnG fEmAlE character but forget that you deleted one of the strongest ones there is
@@spuart3308 if I wasn't 100% sure that they would butcher it, a kreia movie could be pretty awesome.
Or they could just have... Y'know.. A strong female lead that undergoes at least some form of adversity.. Jeez all that friggin talk about overcoming such things yet they have 0 clue on how to portray it. I think stubbing my toe is more life threatening than what Ray went through.. She was practically a god and what minute bit of 'suspense' that could be reasonably observed was merely there for her own entertainment.. At the cost of the audience's!
Like for real.. if ur gonna do an OP MC then just stick with it, give it a reasonable background. Not this whole.. "Oh that thing? That (insert plot device)? It's Real? *immediately becomes a god* "I'm literally blowing things up with my hands and creating life with my mind! but I still need to train in the forest for 5 minutes to show that.. I'm just a novice and have no idea what I'm doing!"
They haven’t fully removed it from the canon! It’s in Limbo rn, but we know there was a darth revan and that malachor v survived in the Disney canon.
Kreia has the best philosophy of any character in Star Wars history. It's crazy
"She drained the Force from them, giving them the choice between the Force and death. They chose death."
Well, technically she gave them the choice between the Force and life without it. They died because they clinged to the Force as it was stripped from them and they couldn't live without it.
@Agent J Indeed, all they desired was there mere pleasure and power from the force. This is similar to almost every Sith, sadly, with even ones with relatively good intentions such as Anakin Skywalker are soon consumed with there on power or hatred for another. This only leads to pain or the need for more power, similar to an addiction.
To me that says a lot therefore I side with Kreia
To say they desired the mere pleasure and power from the force is not fair to any force user. Almost all Jedi and Sith are living intrinsically with the force from their earliest memories. For a force sensitive living without the force would be like living without air. If you were given the choice to continue living without breathing, even if you believed that you could go on without air, you would either instinctually continue breathing or succumb to the pain of living without air after having lived with it so long. That is why the choice that the exile made was so rare, the exile was literally one in a galaxy.
@@androsforever500 Except, it wasn't a choice. What the Exile experienced, was pretty much trauma: mutilation because of being unable to process what she'd just gone through. And, throughout the game, we see her recovery- not quite the same she'd once been, but at least a shadow, an echo of her former self.
laughs in abeloth
A true Dark Lord of the Sith, one that created the question of Force being the greatest threat to the Galaxy. She put the idea that Force will constantly seek balance between the Light and Dark side, which in turn create wars in the Galaxy killing trillions over the years. She made the Force into a Lovecraftian Horror rather a natural force that binds the Galaxy which was viewed by us. In a horrifying sense she was right, it literally took the birth of Anakin Skywalker to restore balance, but it took several thousand years of war and death to do so, and even then there was still wars between the Light and Dark sides for centuries later.
Anakin didn't balance it like you said. He fell to the dark side and shifted the balance to the dark. Then Luke didn't do that ether. He shifted it to the light. So no balance was ever achieved.
@@heindrichpepler709 well he did get rid of the jedi and the sith and they were the main 2 things keeping the force from being balanced so he almost did he just didn't know about the sith in the unknown region and after he died luke started the new jedi order thus creating an imbalance again.
ACE THE UNIBEAR At the end of the prequel trilogy, there were two Jedi(Yoda and Kenobi) and two Sith(Palpatine and Vader). Excluding dark jedi and those on the run, balance achieved.
Even Traya, with all her well deserved wisdom, was subject to viewing The Force from a specific angle. Balance is a concept created by the Jedi and Sith but through their countless wars, have tainted the natural life energies of the Living Force. The Cosmic Force cannot be tainted because it is pure and was solely created by The Supreme Maker, Father, Creator, and God of The Celestials.
The force is a C'tan
She is interesting because she doesn’t blindly (sorry Visas Marr) follow any particular dogma. Her advice exposed the weaknesses of both the Jedi and Sith. She should have her own series in which she buys a party barge and HK-47 is her fun-loving, albeit homicidal, butler.
Shes like a twisted Bruce Lee
Kreia:"Machine! I recall that i specifically told you to get milk. Why isn't there any in the cargo hold?"
HK-47:"Insult: I'm SO sorry master. I know you meatbags need liquids to avoid becoming shrivelled up, leathery corpses, but i assumed that you would find it hard to become any more so."
@@professorrubickmagusgrandi7909 This sounds exactly like Kreia and HK. well done! I didn't think I wanted to see a KoTOR 2 sitcom, but now I do.
@@TheRedshirt93 same here. And it would make sense for HK-47 to have an insult function in his programming; Revan most likely would've added it in to mess with Malak, and it stuck ever since.
Shit bro I'd watch it.
"So you will do nothing? Apathy... is DEATH!"
Apathy is death
Yup, a lesson everyone should learn the easy way.
Perhaps, but then again, that was a Sith Tomb test that was probably trying to force you to the Dark Side.
Statemeeent: Apathyyy is DEEEEEEATH!
@@Cykeys This. It conflicts directly with wu wei - the Taoist concept of "inactive action" something you see the Jedi practice many times both in the movies and EU. Also many fans criticize (wrongly, I believe) the Jedi for this. It's also something Kreia seems to be a master of.
Kreia: I used the force to destroy the force.
Ramar Blood she probably likes yslamari
Like a vaccine lol
Kreai was truly a remarkable sith/philosopher in her own right, but how would she even begin to destroy the Force when it could just endlessly heal itself?
Looks like master ant man has to time travel again
No no no, she got the point
Kreia: "Yes, and what are they without the Force? Take the greatest Jedi Knight, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it, depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman - or a man. A child."―Atton Rand and Kreia, having a friendly conversation about the Jedi Exile on Telos IV[src]
And what happens when you take a blaster away from someone who is proficient with it? Isn't that person relying on the blaster as well? We all rely on our brains to function. Does it make us weak as well
@Embelm12 So the Force is just more 'elitist'. So what? You have to train with both to be any good with them, and you later rely on those skills.
@@MrBiizer It's not that the force is elitist, it's that the force becomes an integral part of *what* a force sensitive is. A Jedi could can train their skills with both a gun and the force, but the difference was that if you lose your gun it's not really a big deal, but losing the force is that same as losing your leg, or your eyes, or your arm.
@@dragonmaster1500 Visas Marr, and other Miraluka actually use the Force as their eyes. An entire race for whom cutting them from the Force is literally crippling their vision.
yeah, and whats a professional runner? hack off their legs, and what remains? they rely on them, depend on them, more than they know.
Yes, and whats a human without their brain? remove their nervous centers, and what remains? they rely on them, depend on them, more than they know.
Yes, and whats a planet without the atoms that make it up? remove all the matter, and what remains?
you can say this about literally *anything.* Jedi relying on the force isnt any different than me relying on my thumbs.
Gotta tag ever single one of Papito Quinn’s videos and The Philosophy of Kreia.
They give so much more explanation and depth to this character and her philosophies
Landon Fanning that guys channel is awesome
My favorite series type
Ahhh yes. Another being of culture I see *makashi salute*
They really do, they do her so much justice
That dude's Kreia video is good but his other Star Wars analyses are borderline deranged. And his Twitter is gone but if you saw it back when it was up, he absolutely does consider his interpretation to be definitive.
I love the theory that Kreia is actually Arren Kae, the mother of the Handmaiden that joins you if you play as a male character in KotOR II. There's a lot that hints at it if you look deeply - one of Revan's teachers WAS Arren Kae, after all, and Arren Kae died during the Mandalorian Wars. Who's to say that Arren Kae didn't die in the Mandalorian Wars, only to be reborn as "Kreia", much like Anakin Skywalker 'died' on Mustafar and was reborn as Darth Vader. Not to mention that Arren Kae was known for her beauty, and Atton says of Kreia "she may have been beautiful once..." And the Handmaiden never saw the face of her mother, so she wouldn't have recognized Kreia as her mother.
Arren Kae did die only to become Darth Traya and then became Kreia when Nihilius and Sion broke her connection to the Force
I'd buy that theory.
@@RadianHelix its actually a main plot point in KotOR 2
I really wish it was, and possibly it's implied, but there's no canonical or explicit evidence in the game that it was true. I'd still buy it and I'm happy with it. Arren Kae and Kreia are treated as separate characters in the few mentions there are of her. All the possibility for them being the same are inferred by moments like Arren Kae being called beautiful (and her concept art is GORGEOUS!) and Atton later says Kreia may have been beautiful "once." If he's serious or facetious its hard to tell. Kreia and Kae sound similar, but aren't the same, etc. I'd still love it if it were true though.
Biggest reason I don’t understand this theory is because there is no allusion in dialogues between Kreia and the Handmaiden, you’d think if your mother was in a room next door on a ship she’d look out for you or something, there is nothing of a familial relationship at all between them
I wonder if Sidious had an opinion of her since he was obsessed with mastering the Force
"I hate the Force"
"It is treason, then"
Palpatine once said when I grow up I want to be Revan
He honestly probably despised her, he worshipped the force and she wanted to destroy it.
@@CommanderOfRussia1 I highly doubt it..since if he would have been aware of her existance..he would have been aware of Nihilus and the consequence of overwhelming power..yet he was not.. he always sought more power and that caused his downfall.. he clearly was ignorant of old sith lord since he was overconfident in his master plan(wich succeded where many before failed).
@@thargs9184 In the Plagueis novel he tells Sidious of Vititate (page 181), and I can almost guarantee he knew of the ancient sith before him. Sith of the Bane line still took the teachings of the ancient sith just not their practices. Also, Nihlus didn’t have overwhelming power, he was just controlled by his hunger. Outside of the force drain he wasn’t skilled in much else. If anything, I’d say Vititate had overwhelming power, and that’s who I’d say Sidious modeled part of his reign after.
Check out Kreia's Conundrums by Papito Qinn
Btw Darth Nihilus is pronouced similar to "nihilism", where the H is silent and so NIHI sounds like NYE.
Nye-uh-lus/lis
To be honest i like this version more
NIHI seems to have a bit more of a jagged edge
Darth Bill Nye-ilus
@@eyeballpapercut4400 The Science Guy-lus
@@FerunaLutelou The Nazi Spy-lus
Maybe the Force said,"Your not the choosen one".
Maybe the Force had the high ground?
Imagine Anakin tried destroying the Force. Maybe it could have happened at his full potential
Kreia was right about the force being the center of a lot of conflict that happens in Star Wars. But I can’t agree with her method of wanting to destroy it because of how connected it is to everyone and the repercussions that can come from its violent absence. But that’s just what I think.
Yet u wanted to be chained by the Force itself that rid your freedom?
Peter Yim that is the dilemma isn’t it? Be free and potentially die or worse? Live with it and fall into the inevitable cycle that begins anew?
Exactly but we must consider the nature of the sentient beings too.
Try to imagine now that the Force is dead now, a new life without the Force, something will change? Galactic wars, death, and factions still exist because is the nature of many sentient beings.
I consider Rogue One a prime example of how the force controls conflict. Everyone on Scarif dies just as the force no longer requires them to do their jobs. One by one they go after their objective is over.
@lcyw20 The Force is a plot element for George Lucas to focus the action a
on a farmboy.
Seriously though, it is pretty vague. However, that might be a good thing. If you are a fan of the Elder Scrolls games, you might know that even in a magical world with proven gods, there can still be religious debate and conflict. As such, having different groups have different ideas about the Force, even while confirming its existence, seems logical.
So based on this, I would consider Kreia to be a Force Anarchist
I'd say more of a Force Nihilist
@@CollinMcLean considering several of her lessons revolve around learning to impose your will on others without physical effort and relying on your own strength, I'd say anarchist is a better term.
imo, she's more of a force radical centrist tbh. she learned from both jedi and sith and even grey jedi (who btw are like force moderate centrists lmao), and saw that they relied too much on the force as their resource
@@hajagameznstuff6956 I would consider her a Force anti-determinist...she felt that the force striped the free-will from life thus creating a deterministic galaxy where all things were "Fated" to do the force's bidding, and she sought to break that control. I believe her philosophy is heavily based on our IRL concept of causality. Physics is the literal force that binds all things to it's will, and if one studies it closely enough, one can imagine differing "Wills" if the numerical constants of physics were altered, a part of the many worlds or multiverse theory is that the constants of physics seem arbitrary, a slight change in gravitational constants or the specific nature of particles could have resulted in a universe of nothing but clouds of hydrogen gas...I suppose the question she was asking all of us would be, "Is there a truth beyond reality, beyond the physical and perceptible, beyond what is set, beyond the universe, in the realm of seeming contradiction due to our reliance on that which imprisons us, of the infinite and null, that is both everywhere and nowhere?"
(I think the other two in the Sith triumvirate are cheeky nods to her beliefs and actions. Nihilus and Sion, from the words Nihilism and Scion, a belief in the absence of meaning and a piece of a plant cut off to be planted in new soil or a descendant, a new life out of an old family)
(For a more fun interpretation, check the first minute or two of the "History of the world, I guess" video on youtube...)
@@CollinMcLean She's not a nihilist, nihilism is the belief in nothing, while Kreia did acknowledge that the force existed, but that it should be destroyed. She's rather an existentialist, and wants to get rid of the force that gives slave morality(jedi) or moral corruption(sith) to its followers.
Kreia was obsessed in becoming 'independent' of the force's will, while still being able to hold its abilities. The jedis follow the force's will, which she despises, and the sith use the force as how they see fit, but are corrupted due to the nature of the force itself - he who does not follow the will of the force becomes immoral, and slowly mental/physically declines due to the natyre of the dark side of the force.
Kreia wanted to use the force with the intentions of the sith, while still maintaining health and moral values like the jedi. (Sadly this is impossible in the Star wars universe except for the exile) and this was why she wished to kill the force.
You know, I always thought Kreia was right.
The force is sentient, and sentient beings have their own goals and philosophies. When an otherworldly entity imposes its plans onto you, it's stripping you of your free will and forcing you to rely on it for strength.
I'd honestly love it if a non-force sensitive discovered powers beyond the force. Imagine this: someone finds a way to completely cut themselves off from the force, meaning even abilities such as force push, force persuasion, and force lightning have zero effect; and they proceed to mop the floor with both Jedi and Sith by unveiling some grander power that doesn't impose its presence on you.
This comment deserves more love. This is an interesting concept.
That or by understanding the agenda of the force you could try to mitigate its influence. Personally, I think that the agenda of the force must be collective will of force sensitives that were strong enough to become one with the force.
That breaks the Star Wars universe.
@@ThePrinceofPlots i def agree that the immunity part breaks the universe writing wise, but having a source of power that rivals the force except it has no will is interesting, it could reshuffle perspectives in the jedi amd sith
@@IvanSoregashi thats a cool idea
ah yes, the one with flying sabers
When you think about it, Kriea is right to want the force dead. Think about this? Who causes the most trouble, who are the big players in the Star Wars Galaxy? Force-Sensitives. Sidious, Vader, Luke, Yoda, Dooku, Maul, Ahsoka, all of them and more are guided by the force. And they are all reliant on it. Yes, Sidious uses Empire technology but he still uses force lightning and force choke. Vader would have been hated by Kreia as Vader believes nothing is more powerful than the force and Vader is the chosen one.
If you cut off the force, There'd be no Force-Sensitives, they would be people with point laser sticks that would gunned down rather easily because they don't have the force to rely on. This means the Galaxy would have been put on an even playing field, relying on techology and other such things. So long as the Force exists, so does the conflicts. It will go to Kylo Ren and Rey, it will go further beyond that probably for eternity.
Maybe Kreia has a point: The Force is relied upon too often and both Jedi and Sith are slaves to it.
Killing the force as a manipulative deity? Good. However, there might be unforseen consequences. I don't even know if Surik was completely cut off, but would she die?
Personally I would first look for another way to stop its control. To stabilize it, maybe? Or to merge the dark/light side into a fully neutral, apathic force like gravity?
That might not work, and some would try to stop it, of course. But I would keep Surik as a plan b.
There are many times where a jedi or a sith has been cut off from the force and survived just fine while they werent anywhere near as powerful they are still sometimes deadly in their own right without the force cause they still have to train their body to use the force as well
@@Darkknight-rf2hw the Exile was extremely powerful. So was Ahsoka.
@@Flufferz626 I mean why you mentioning ahsoka she never lost the force
Kreia is the only character in Star Wars that has ever strived for any kind of universal liberation. That makes her the only good guy in the entire franchise
Kreia is the best female character in Star Wars and is Darth Revan former Jedi Master. I wished she could have meet Anakin the Chosen One and get her opinion on the prophecy and Darth Vader redemption. Kriea could be the canon Sith lady named Tannis in Rebels.
She was from 4,000 years before any movie, show, or game created since Disney bought SW.
@@Caleb-en5bo I know
In a way she gave her opinion about anakin. The sith, plagues and sidious, tipped the force to the dark, the force tipped it back in balance. This is what she hated. No matter what beings did, the force did its own thing, creating endless war. She would have hated anakin.
He is the embodiment of the problem. Since the beginning, light and dark had warred. Even when the jedi thought they had finally won, banes descendants where warring with the light. Finally the sith where on the cusp of victory and what did the force do, creates anakin. The force is God, and kreia is lucifer from John Milton's paradise lost
"One who has fallen so far, and done so much evil does not deserve redemption. In a way, such a turning from one's nature is cowardly, a betrayal of the self... Yes, redemption is merely a form of spiritual collapse, a fall few recover from."
If you take what she said at th end of the game in perspective, looking at the direct quotes of her prophesy, she already saw it all.
Kreia is easy one of the best characters of stars wars. She dissects the entirety of the force like a surgeon.
A surgeon would try to fix things. She opened the force up, saw it had a tumour and said "oh well, into the lava pit it goes".
Star Wars noob: so was Traya a Jedi or sith
Me a Star Wars fanatic: YES
The correct answer is : NO
Ah, already you assume too much
@Octopus Of the nine realms It has achieved a form of balance that pleases both of you.
Correction. The answer is: Yes and No. And everything in between, and at the same time neither.
Arren Kae was a Jedi. Traya was a Sith. Kreia on the other hand...
Even Luke Skywalker came into a similar realization of the Force. I think it was when he faced Abeloth in Mortis, he saw how the Force not only had a will of its own... But he perceived the indifference of it as well. How the Jedi and Sith always believed, in their own way, that the Force was aligned with them but in reality, the Force doesn't really care about either. But he didn't conclude to outright kill the Force lol
So basically, she said 'screw it' and decided to do away with the entire "balance of the universe" thing.
The ultimate neutral.
That's literally the balance, the complete destroy of the force so that no Sith or Jedi can use it.
*taps forehead* Can't be an imbalance in the Force if there is no Force!
A fascinating character, to be sure. One of the best video games has to offer.
There is a single major flaw with this analysis, as with nearly every analysis of Kreia: she didn't seek to kill the Force (not during the events of KotOR 2 surrounding the Exile at least).
Kreia says it herself just before she wipes Mical's memory (thus, one of the only times we can be sure she was being truthful) - she knew the damage that had been done to the galaxy and the growing echo, and she wanted to stop it. (what she specifically says is to the effect of "I? You think that I wish for death on such a scale? I do not want to win our battle like this."). What Mical does realize (in his mind at least) is that she wants to kill the Exile at the end of the journey to prevent the death of the Force (and thus all life), not to kill it.
More importantly, her training of the Exile isn't meant as simply a way to get her to kill the other Sith Lords and find/kill the Jedi Masters. Kreia wanted the Exile to best her as well, so that she could die and the Exile could spread her own teachings of living without the Force to others (as the Exile is everything Kreia wants - someone who can turn away from the Force's will and still live despite being 100% cut off from it). That is her main plan; having the Exile surpass her, prove her wrong, and bring to the table what is essentially a third option when it comes to the Force. The backup plan is killing the Exile, which would also allow for the Force to survive (thus not killing everyone in existence) and for her herself to try and train others in a similar fashion (though she already admits during the course of the game that she feels she can't succeed at that). The third option (neither Kreia/Malachor nor the Exile dying) is the unacceptable failure, as that would lead to the death of all life in the galaxy, forever (a similar fate to that of what Nihlius would bring upon the galaxy if he were never stopped).
Hell yeah. Keep up the Kotor content.The games are by themselves amazing. Stories are written perfectly. Soundtracks are beautiful. They delved into and described the force and Jedi/Sith like never before
If you consider Jolee and Kreia as neutrals in Star Wars, Jolee is a lawful neutral while Kreia is a Chaotic neutral.
No way!!! I didn’t know about this, thanks to geetslty’s I’ve had a better understanding of star wats
TheShadow hunterO check out the channel Papito Quinn (I think that’s how it’s spelled). He goes WAY in depth
If you are interested, there are videos dedicated to Kreia from the Knights of the Old Republic 2 game. Check it out!
@@ashtonpeterson4618 Or just play the game...please
@@sikid4000 I have. It's good. Though in different ways than most games or star wars in general.
Star wats
Kreia is SPECTACULAR as a character! She is the MOST mysterious interesting character in gaming history there NEEDS to be a TV series about Knights of the Old Republic. At 10:33 and 5:05 who drew that art?
It's been a few years now since I placed Kreia as my favorite SW character. She's complex, rich and fascinating; and most importantly, all her choices make sense to her and have a depth that is palpable.
I think the biggest flaw in Kreia’s philosophy is she assumed the universe and life itself could exist without the force. It couldn’t, in the Star Wars universe at least. Trying to kill the force is like trying to kill space or gravity, it’s an intrinsic part of existence. Sure you can remove it certain areas, even manipulate it. But take it away entirely and you unmake existence itself. The force doesn’t just bind everything together, it comes from everything, living and nonliving, that’s exactly how it binds everything together in the first place. Just my thoughts on it at least.
She kinda reminds me of Madara Uchiha from Naruto. Both wanted to break free from the conflict and powers that their worlds relied on in favor of a greater reality. They both failed but their ambitions did not go unheard, nor were they entirely disproven. In every sympathetic villain, there is an ounce of truth to their beliefs, and truth that must be recognized and embraced so nobody else has to suffer the hardships that they did. The world is messy and while it’s easy to hate a villain, if you peel back the layers you’ll realize that most are just people who were broken and wronged. While their actions aren’t acceptable, you can’t help but feel pity, wishing you could help make their livers better, if just by a little bit.
At least Kreia didn't die like Madara did. Madara's death was such a cop out move that was made only because Kishimoto screwed up and made him far too powerful to kill (which, in turn, was because he didn't give a sh*t about how Saskura was developed)
I cannot blame her for her hatred of the Force. I too see that the Force itself is extremely bad by it's nature and it would be better if it did not exist at all.
She didn't even know. Apathy is the death of the force. A being unswayed by the force is the death of the force. Her hatred of the force gives the force life. Her own teachings are an oxymoron. Apathy is not only death, its the death of the force.
The thing is that wasn't actually Kreia who SAID 'Apathy is death'. If I remember correctly, that was just an apparition taking the form of Kreia in a Sith tomb, so we can't take it's words as a reflection of her philosophy at all.
Considering how Star Wars plays "a long time ago" presumably in the same universe as our real world... could it be that she was actually successful and due to her actions after "a long time" the force eventually did die and that's how our reality became the way it is, even though she didn't live to see it?
There's some food for thought. ^^
That's what I believe. At some point in the SW universe, someone picked up what she put down and killed The Force. We are what's left. Or possibly, we are what was before and continued to be, and the SW Universe just ended a long time ago early in human history on this planet. Somehow ancient early humans ended up in another galaxy and spread to prominence on that technology, and we have been isolated way out here in the Milky Way the whole time.
Interesting theory, but the yuuzhan vong kind of break that theory...in a sense. Depending on how you view the Force, Obi-Wan states it binds the GALAXY together. The Vong were extra-galactic and void of the Force. So if you think about it, philosophically, does the Force bind the entire universe, with some exceptions, or just that particular Galaxy?
that would mean her teachings would also be responsible for settings humans/civilization back..hundreds of thousands of years if not more.
In all honesty. If that were the case, id rather not know her name because that would be uh... pretty agrivating lol
like, for as much bad as the sw universe has, it has a lot of good as well
@@davedavidson8208 I don't quite get your point. How is the absence of the force setting an entire civilization back in any way?
If anything we in the real-life seem to be advancing far more rapidly than the Star Wars races, who've barely had any technological advances for millenia.
the force is still here, we just cant wield it... yet ;)
I hear a lot of "best in Star Wars" about her. In my opinion? She's one of the best mentors and villains in fiction itself. She had lessons that, despite the fictional setting in which she resides, apply well to our own world and every day life. Not to mention, the voice actress who portrayed her was simply phenomenal.
That whole first speech is me asking my grandpa about his gangster days. Verbatim.
I used to blast Bodies by Drowning Pool while doing the Trayus Academy because by that point in the game I was so powerful that I was able to just obliterate them. And the funny thing is, the lyrics actually perfectly match the plot of the game. "Nothing wrong with me" - everyone's been saying there's something wrong with the Exile for the entire game. "You wanted in and now you're here, driven by hate, consumed by fear" - the Jedi who went to war with Revan and Malak, fell to the dark side, and are now there in the Trayus Academy, facing you.
And if you're wondering what insane build I used, it was a light-side Guardian / Master build with Force Stasis and Force Storm. Or, as I like to call it, "Freeze 'em and fry 'em." Guardian gets you the lightsaber skills and feats, and Master gets you the Force powers and Force points when you are actually high enough level to use them effectively.
Oh my goodness, I was watching this because she is one of my all time favorite characters but completely got excited when I saw that you used one of my photography edits of Kreia/Traya.
It's at 8:30. All that aside, this is a very great and in depth video on one of the most interesting characters in the whole Star Wars universe, very well done.
Exile:"Soooo, I'm being let back into the Order?"
Jedi Masters:"Oh hell no!"
Just finished my "rebuke the force" play through of kotor2, the way that I wanted to spin the tale was that of an Exile that agrees with kreia, to find freedom from the force to never make a choice that wasn't based on what I wanted I tried my hardest to maintain a grey area but not by making good or evil descisions for the sake of it but by simply making the most human choices, opportunity, selfishness, passion, love, hate, anger, happiness to not be held back by the light or controlled by the dark. To simply be human felt so free. To explore the relationships between characters while not striving for any light or dark cookies but simply making the descisions that I would make as a human disconnected from the force with no incentive. My choices became unpredictable even to me and felt so very natural. It was one of the most enjoyable play throughs iv ever had in that game.
I was thinking of trying that myself, though given my knowledge of the game's design, I feel it would be difficult for me to put that out of my mind and focus on just being a human in the game world. But what you are describing sounds oddly similar to the Zen concept of Mushin, a shortening of mushin no shin or "Mind with no-heart/mind" (Heart/mind is a single character in the Japanese text) a state in which both emotion and thought are removed and one acts in accordance with no pattern, sort of tapping into the nature of the self removed from ego. It's often referenced in regard to martial arts kata, repeating them until they become ingrained to the point of not having to think about them to execute them. That seems to be what you are doing, putting the mechanics of the force and game out of your mind and playing as an IRL human would in the fantasy setting...but that's just my two cents...lol...do with it what you will...
I wonder what the galaxy would look like if her plan succeeded.
Even without the force thier would still be lives lost and conflict. Kreia thought it was solely the force to blame, but it was rather the decisions of individuals to use it and depend solely on it and they chose to not live life at all and have other talents. The domatic nature that people viewd upon the force is what led to arrogance and power seeking and not simply using it in conjunction with ones other abilities.
A yes, I remember the Republic Cruiser "Habringer."
A real HARBINGER of doom if you ask me
Feminists: STAR WARS HAD NO STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS BEFORE REY
Me: *shows them this video of a woman who legit aspired to destroy the force entirely and actually found a way to do so*
Theres nothing wrong with wanting to make a new female character. There is something wrong with switching writers and directors every single film when you haved a *planned* trilogy though.. And this is what makes the sequels so lack luster. Also kathleen Kennedy exerting her will over the productions.
Ive never seen the infamous hoardes of feminists you speak of though during g my time around the star wars community.
I feel like youd rather blame a group, than the one person who actually influenced it.
@Corvus Morve yess, they had so many characters and eras but they decided to give us rey
@Corvus Morve Kira Karsen, Vaylin(Star wars Azula), Sanya Tyral
I don't get why studios are so obsessed with trilogies... a friggin goliath like Disney can afford to pump out a whole 12 movie saga.. Gawd just get the guys who did avengers to go do it... they managed about 20 or so.. And oh look it doesn't even have to vaguely come together in a sensible way with regards to a movie that came out a decade earlier! but... I guess creativity isn't a movie studio's forte anymore.. how do these people even get hired? It's gotta be some sick shit behind closed doors and on camera for the blackmail bookshelf.
@Corvus Morve Well I think their complaint isn't so much as a strong female character, but a strong female character that is in the lead role.
(e.g. A character like Lenneth Valkyrie or maybe Maple. I don't watch that many movies so.. idk.)
Qui Gon Jinn:
"I don't sense anything."
Bro, thank you for triggering me with those classic star wars battlefront loading sounds! The call back to my childhood is greatly appreciated!
She tried to kill the Force, but didn't expect it to strike back. Darth Plagueis tried to reach out and tell the galaxy the Sith have returned, and look at what happened to him. The Force will always prevail, and remember the Force wants balance.
She was an unsung hero, trying to save everyone from further wars between two extreme groups constantly and endlessly at war. By deafening them to the force, there would be far less with regard to galactic atrocities
But death in force means death itself. The only planets in the star wars universe completely devoid of the force are devoid of life itself
Palpatine/Sidious: "I will rule everything with UNL1M1T3D P0WAH!!!!"
Kreia/Traya: "That's cute...."
Kreia imagined a Star Trek like lifestyle.
Well done! I hope you make more content surrounding KoTOR 2. If you do, I'd be happy to get you some raw footage or if you'd rather record them yourself, I can supply you with any one of my almost 500 save files to get whatever you need. Anything to show more people the brilliance of this game.
My all time favorite star wars character
Force: You're nothing without me Kreia
Kreia: no u
Than she died
Problem with her philosophy is that wound in the force is not absence of force. Force is still everpresent, in one form or another.
Exactly, it’s not that the Force is absent but that it’s been damaged-like a flickering light due to faulty wiring or trying to walk on broken legs
In another dimension the Exile is a Grey Paladin and refuses to pick up a Lightsaber again instead opting for Blasters.
Wonder what she would think about the Yuuzhan Vong?
That old battlefront intro has me in flashbacks
Id love a prequel which shows her training Revan and the Exile, and her controversial teachings, how she left the order. Imagine like a lost missions where Kreia takes them to a "Jedi" planet, however it turns out that the Jedi did real shade there and the Jedi council had tried to cover it up. Kreia would be like Ashoka, vindicated but not heard, and would leave the order. Devasted by her departure Revan secretly harbours resentment ang anger to the council but this isn't why he ultimately joins the Mandalorion wars
There is a fanfiction of a Human from Earth enters the Star Wars galaxy during the Clone Wars; "Strange Surroundings" if I remember the title correctly. Not only does he have no Midichlorians so he has no connection to the Force, but White Blood Cells, our immune system, actually destroy Midichlorians. Krieia would have killed to have met us Earthlings.
Darth Treya had a good idea: but, there's too many things that are not understood about the Force.
It was far, far too soon to cast ultimate judgement on it.
I finished replaying KOTOR 2 last week. As always the ending left me a little dead inside. Even more this time, as I played dark side force storm spam for instant gratification. Still couldn't bring myself to gas my companions. We're not the baddies, Hans. Well, we are, but not that bad... Gray Jedi though... Those I'd gladly gas.
What I miss in KOTOR 2 is a clear path where you ally with Kreia and merrily go on the quest to fuck up the Force once and for all. And we would have peace...
Yes, because their would be nothing left alive.
@@lanesmith1465 Eh, there would be droids.
@@lanesmith1465 Someone hasn't seen the ending where you actually join with Kreia. The Exile goes on to teach a new order of Force-sensitives that don't actually rely on the Force, and ends up destroying the Force without killing literally everything.
@@mortemtyrannus8813 ? Isnt that ending wher you stay supposed to be you sending help to find Revan?
@@tequilawhiskey Honestly, been a while since I played the game, so I'd have to go through it again to make sure.
The EU has really great stories I started to read them
Revan’s mom figure is also a badass, no surprise there
We love you Arren Kae!
4:40 huh...so that’s what the Astro mechs looked like before R2D2. that’s pretty cool! 🥰
First it was this model, then R2, then Chpper from Rebels, then BB-8
@@fazbrogaming7776 Chopper was older than r2
@@hasnicktir5310 yes I am aware.
I wish they would do a movie on this era .
The force uses us all, it has a will and has a destined for us.
This tells me that the force is no evil nor good just a ventriloquist. The force is the one who chooses who's evil or who is not. And also who's chosen. So in reality the ventriloquist is toying with pleasure and agony
I would actually say Kreia is wrong on this (in fact, I'd say anyone who claims the Force has a will in the first place is wrong).
The Force is like the ocean - it has no will, to effort, no desire. Whatever it might seem to have to those who observe it, the reality is that it simply exists, and whatever is done to it/within it will cause ripples that affect other things. Nothing more.
In that way, it's actually more terrifying, because no one in that universe can ever really be sure that the Force DOESN'T have a will, because they can't fully see everything involved in it (as it's essentially an infinite ocean).
It’s pronounced Har-bin-jur. A harbinger is a bringer of fate
When i played kotor 2 and she did what she did and her last words made me really think
She saw the Force as a tyrannical entity, and sought to "liberate" the galaxy from it.
...I concur with her assessment for the most part-- for a long time I've felt that Force Sensitivity was a blight to be purged.
I can see where she comes from. The fact that the Force is largely responsible for so much bloodshed and atrocities is largely overlooked. I still don't hold it solely responsible. Not all choices are not predetermined.
@@ashtonpeterson4618 Jedi/Sith...what is either without the Force: far more manageable in both cases!
@@schnarre0 While I find the removal of the force interesting, I wonder if the problem isn't truly the Force as much as those empowered by it. The whole "power corrupts" is said a lot but it doesn't really cover the whole scope of the idea.
Scarif is a prime example of the force controlling people.
@@xenon8117 Because they all died to "restore balance?"
Kreia is what happens when a Sith falls. Not to the light, but deeper into oblivion.
I miss the predisney days of star wars. I've sort deep dove into star wars recently and dear god do I hate what star wars has become. Pandering over good writing. I miss the days writers actually cared about the source
Exile: Does anything
*Influence Lost: Kreia*
*Influence Gained: Kreia*
Watching you fail to say the word harbinger is entertaining
TLDR: Kreia's attitude on the force "Don't hate the player, hate the game.'
Before the war that split the Jeedai Order into the Light and the Dark, the Force was whole and all was pretty calm. It is said that the Force is essentially a living being. So when the Jedi and the Sith both broke it into light and dark, they essentially severed a living thing in two.
What living being do you know could survive being split in two and not want to fuck with those people in a way to right that wrong?
If the Jeedai had stayed the way they were, we wouldn't have had these fucking wars to begin with. Honestly, the biggest failings of both Orders is their own conceptions
Somewhere in Legends, they do mention a planet where both Dark Side users and Light Side users learned about the Force, but the Light Side users eventually saw the Dark Side as evil and started a war against those who used it. Then the very ancient Jedi did the same when they found Dark Side users in their midst.
I thought the Jeedai comic wasn't even canon in the EU
Her floating lightsabers in her fight at the end of Kotor 2 was so cool
Kriea is forever the greatest teacher, the greatest Star Wars character, the greatest Fictional character, and the greatest philosopher of all time.
Kreia is a great teacher because everything she says makes you question everything. Except when she's ripping on Atton.
No great philosophy embraces hatred. Influential ones, yes. But they are not great.
CoachDoug714 show your working out please
Doctor Ness Prophet, How would that help?
CoachDoug714
When you make a claim, explain /your/ reasoning behind it.
Why is philosophy intrinsic to hatred? The two are mutually exclusive.
She is a tragic character. She learned all that there is about the Jedi and understood they were lacking in their understanding of the Force. She became a Sith to learn more about the Force only to learn that the Sith were also lacking, yet in the end she understood the Force manipulated the whole Star Wars Universe so she wanted to sever the Galaxy of the Force, but the Force brought Exile on her way and Kreia lost, and so did her teachings...
Darth Treya is the Best!
This is just my opinion, but to me, the ancient Sith Lords are more cooler looking, and more OP than the sith we see in clone wars for some reason.
I mean this Darth Treya person uses the force to have three lightsabers floating around her (That’s so cool!!) again, I’ve never seen a Jedi or sith in the prequels do that before, meaning that the ancient sith might be more powerful? 🤔
Kreia was powerful. But not one of the all time greats. Telekinetic lightsaber combat is little more than a clever trick. Which is in line with her MO. She is a trickster that uses shock and awe to break her enemies before dispatching them with her modest, yet still well grounded abilities.
For what its worth, the technique is displayed in Fallen Order.
Technically, no. After the Rule of Two was theorized by Revan and eventually brought into play by Bane, each generation of Sith was progressively stronger than the last.
They illustrate more abilities, but ultimately, they are outclassed with Sidious being the perfect end result to a millenia worth of knowledge passed down.
She is intelligent in a philosophical sense, but what’s funny to me is her shortcomings in common sense. The Rule of Two didn’t exist yet, but even Revan said it was foolish to take on more than one apprentice. I am also curious whether her plan would actually help or hurt the galaxy. As we’ve seen in the old EU, the Yuuzhan vong were also stripped of their force connection and were tormented for generations because of it.
I love the videos you do on legends.
This is the content the galaxy deserves.
If the Cosmic Force binds together the universe, and the Living Force is responsible for life, then isn't getting rid of the Force itself complete and utter annihilation?
As seen with the vong, life can exist without the force . I think the force just penetrates most life, and the idea that life exists because if the force is just religious propaganda from the Jedi.
It comes across though the game that only those with deep ties to the force will die, such as the Masters in the lightside conclave meeting.
So much would die, but plenty would still live.
Hell, the exile did it to herself and survivied.
I think the biggest hypocracy of Kreia was that she decided of her own volition (ironically) to make the choice of cutting off the force for everyone else in the galaxy and the woder Universe.
Who is she to decide what's best for everyone in the Star Wars Universe? Force or not entire species rely on it more than others, cultures use it as a faith/religion, not everyone is affected by the force in the same way. Especially the non-force sensitive.
*That moment when you realize you'd be a Padawan of Kreia and would follow her philosophy*
And than you never become force GHOST
I'd like to see more characters who question the Force itself. I've got plenty of disagreements with Kreia's philosophy, but I agree the Force interferes with free will and that needs to be addressed, somehow. I think it forces the dark/light dichotomy and effectively prevents Force-sensitives from picking a different way of life. That's one of the things that the Jedi Order often embodies. They indoctrinate infants, and are often concerned about alternative Force traditions looking a little too "gray". The Dark Side is similar in that it can make people forget their original goals.
The inherent flaw in her ideology was that ultimately, she didn't want the force to be a factor in decision-making. She abhorred the idea of destiny which the force imposed. The flaw there is that even without the force, there is no choice, there is no free will, only the macroscopic illusion of it. Even without the force, your destiny remains.
At the end of the day, Kreia is mostly wrong. She is correct that Force sensitive people being overly reliant on the Force is problematic, since, while specialization is fine, overspecialization is a weakness. But this does not mean that they aren't powerful. I mean, if she seriously tries to argue that the guy who can shoot lighting out of his hands and the guy who can lift a spaceship with his mind aren't powerful then she's wrong. And severing everyone's connection to the Force because of their dependance on it is stupid. It's like saying "People are reliant on being able to see. This is a weakness, because if they go blind then they will be weaker. Clearly the solution is to blind EVERYONE, so that they won't be reliant on seeing." If you are overspecialized then you practice things you're not good at. You don't stop doing what you're good at. Furthermore, while she is correct that Nihilus and Sion rely on the Force to survive, even these two, her two prime examples of Force sensitives being overly reliant on the Force, had other skills. Both were swordsmen and military leaders. While they were both strong with the Force they weren't overspecialized, as they could do other things. So even in her main examples for Force sensitives being overly reliant on the Force she has misjudged the situation.
Also, she assumes that, since the Force has a will of its own, that the Force is inherently malevolent, and everything is enslaved by it. But that's not how the Force works. Remember that exchange between Luke and Obi-Wan in A New Hope? "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially. But it also obeys your commands." It isn't just one directing the other. It goes both ways.
Look up Philosophy of Kreia
After playing Fallen Order, I don't blame this woman. The second sister was essentially brainwashed, and the only reason the Empire was interested in her is because she was force-sensitive. That's it.
Title: "The woman who tried to break the force"
Me: Kathleen Kennedy? o.O
I would probably would want to have Kreia as a master. She should of been on the council instead of those 4 jedi that were narcissistic in their views of the force. Also ironic that Atris sees you nothing as a failure as a jedi yet she became a sith that needed to be put down.