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Kreias true name is Arren Kae, there's a lot pointing towards it throughout the game, and the part where Arren Kae was revans first master, but then kreia refers to herself as revans first and last master, that pretty much seals it
Sadly Kreia's philosophy died with her and the jedi went on to be what they've always been. Then again she was never mentioned in that Revan book. Sadly part of me hopes they don't bring her back unless they either have someone who truly understands her character and won't just turn her into some cliche dark side element, or better still, the original writing team from Obsidian.
If it is, it'd be epic for her to resurface in the time of another great manipulator like Sidious who sometimes makes me wonder if he ever stumbled across one of Traya's holocrons from her Sith days since his methods mirror her belief in not relying on the force to get ones way but rather other skills. I just hope they write her correctly and research her character thoroughly if they're going to include her. Perhaps she still wants The Force dead
through her teachings passed on to Revan - the great Rule of Two was born. Her beliefs of superiority of the individual strength became the cornerstone of the Rule. Despite anything - the Rule of Two is eternal - it's the state in which Sith can truly prevail without consuming themselves
Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn.
This is evidence of my suspicions. She tests the Exile. She tests everyone. Always. She doesn't only test. In some way... Traya *is* a test. Would you trust such a person? It is difficult to say. Would you ally yourself with her? Also difficult. Many questions there are that test people's understanding of everything. This is a character so deeply written, that I am starting to really wonder - how does one make such a character? It is beyond my understanding. Such a character, that you can analyse so deeply, to reach the most difficult of questions, asked by many of the intellectuals worldwide.
Kreia was initially created to the be the antithesis to all Star Wars lore and Force mumbo-jumbo. Basically a tool for the development team to point out everything they thought was wrong with the universe. And boy did she deliver. The one character that really made you think about the whole thing. She is one of the best characters ever written... No matter what story you look at. I am still not convinced that she was all "Sith" even in the end. At least she would not subscribe to a Sith philosophy if she was given the chance. She saw the flaws in the Sith and in the Jedi a like and wasn't a huge fan of either one. But mostly she just wanted to kill the force, the thing that controlled all life in the universe and let people be people, without outside control. Arren Kae, the mother of Handmaiden... But who was the father???
Kreia, the only being in Star Wars, that truly understands the true nature of the Force, it is nothing but an amoral puppeteer master God, that tries to achieve balance, by the eternal cycle of death and destruction caused by both the light side and the dark side, or in this case, the Jedi and the Sith. She wanted to freed the galaxy from such cycle, even if it means killing 90 or 80 percent of the life of the galaxy, just to make sure that Force never influences the galaxy into a constant state of destruction just to achieve balance. This is why I like the Kreia as a character, she realizes the the Force is the actual threat.
+A Worshipper of Sheevism I don't think even Kreia understood the true nature of the Force. While more learned on it than many, like most, she was projecting her own behavior onto it as well. Trying to imply the Force has a will, to me, is like implying the ocean or space has a will, simply because it responds to actions and will cause things to happen as it 'balances out'. It is implying intelligence and will where there is none, not in the way we describe when we use those terms at least. Rather than it being a puppeteer (as Kreia implies), or a seesaw (as the Jedi imply) or a driving element of existence (as the Sith imply), I would describe the Force as a pendulum (closer to how Jolee Bindo describes it). It does not try to force a balance between light and dark. It merely exists and naturally gravitates towards the center, and living creatures are what cause 'disturbances' that shift it in one direction or another, causing it to swing back and forth until either stopped again in a balanced state (difficult to do) or it comes to rest on its own (unlikely due to the nature of life causing actions).
Kreia: Meetra Surik never told you what happen to your mother Brianna: She told me enough, she told me you kill her Kreia: No, I am your mother Brianna: No, that not true, that impossible Kreia: Search your feelings, you know it to be true Brianna:Nooooooooooooooooooooo
@@SardonicJosh yeah I ignore that, complete BS about making the exile female canonically when in KOTOR 2 allot more things (like artis hating you) makes more sense as a male, and the handmaiden is a better companion than lame micheal. I am not opposed to the exile being female it's just that allot of things in KOTOR 2 as I said make more sense as a male exile but that's just me
I used to despise her character when i was younger, but now that i am much older and I re-examine her as a character, she was brilliantly written. It is sad that KOTOR2 was rushed and was never given the proper update it needed.
It actually was updated but by the fans. There's a restored content mod that brings back all the content that Obsidian had to cut before rushing the game out. It makes the game so much better.
@@shyper4362 lol wtf are you on about? The Sith Lords restored content mod was made by a team of modders who dug through the games files and found unused dialogue, and story elements. They then implemented and rebuilt the missing content stitching together their own to patch it all together, as well as fixing numerous bugs, and offering compatibility with other popular mods. It has never been official until it was endorsed by obsidian and later aspyr who will be releasing it as dlc for the switch and current gen console releases. It was not by any means made by the developer.
Kreia IS Arren Kae. There's no denying it, Arren Kae was presumed dead at the battle of Malachor V as stated by Master Kavar, to which she retorts that she simply became stronger. She despises the handmaiden because her birth meant Kae's exile. Arren kae was a known Jedi historian, Kreia is a historian herself. Kreia states that she knew kae as the handmaidens mother, and everything about her, went in to describe Kae's life story. Detailing that her teachings were frowned upon, anyone see where I'm going here?
I have also suspected that Kreia is actually Master Kae. Some additional supporting elements is that Kae was one of Revan’s teachers, and a controversial one as well. Kreia definitely fits the bill in that regard as well. Master Kae was said to be beautiful, and, as hinted at by Atton, Kreia once was, but has been weathered by “hard living” as he puts it. The light gray robes of Kae also could fit with some of the themes we’ve seen, a counter to Kreia/Traya’s black robes of being a Sith, with these off white robes signifying her service to the Jedi at that time, and her brown robes seen during most of the game representing her balance, as it were. She also knows a lot about Kae, though that could simply be a result of being a contemporary to her. Still, two mysterious and controversial female masters/teachers seems a bit of a stretch, and Kreia leaving out that bit of information seems like something she might do...
Not to mention that if you compare Arren Kae and Kreia/Traya, you will notice some physical similarities as well. Like their robes for example. While the colors are different, the style of the robes is exactly the same. The hair, also, has the exact same style. Finally, They both used telekinetic lightsabers, though Arren used two blue lightsabers, while Traya used three purple ones.
I agree that Palpatine is the stronger Sith Lord, but Kreia's plan to destroy the force was much more ambitious. Palpatine was ultimately a slave to the dark side while Kreia saw the force for what it was.
Helvetica Neue honestly, I wouldn’t say that paplatine is as strong as traya. We didn’t get to see many of her abilities or most of the ancient sith’s abilities, so we couldn’t say much other than the fact that all ancient sith were far stronger than the “modern” sith
In my own opinion, Darth Traya is the greatest sith lord that ever lived and my personal favorite. Her beliefs are so radical and she was the master of Revan and Nihilus for god's sake. Only Darth Ruin came close to what she was belief wise. Traya is proof that you don't always need faith in the Force, just faith in yourself.
Wait I thought Ruin was bad because of the fact that he had a philosophy based solely on himself, rather than a greater goal? He also led many of his fellow Sith followers to their destruction; granted the Sith do manipulate each other, but still.
Love Palpatine, but when it comes to her conviction and her ideology I'm gonna have to say Kreia's my favorite Sith. The way she sees the force as a manipulative god that creates endlessly repeating wars for its own amusement is a really profound way to see the never ending struggle between the Jedi and the Sith.
I wanted to kreia to tuck me in at night and kiss me on the forehead. Then she betrayed me and I was like "you dumb bitch your gonna die like the rest. Come back to me god damnit."
100% Star Wars I would leave if I got the blame for my former student going to fight then becoming a Sith Lord who'd eventually save The Republic by killing his former close freind.
Kreia, the only being in Star Wars, that truly understands the true nature of the Force, it is nothing but an amoral puppeteer master God, that tries to achieve balance, by the eternal cycle of death and destruction caused by both the light side and the dark side, or in this case, the Jedi and the Sith. She wanted to freed the galaxy from such cycle, even if it means killing 90 or 80 percent of the life of the galaxy, just to make sure that Force never influences the galaxy into a constant state of destruction just to achieve balance. This is why I like the Kreia as a character, she realizes the the Force is the actual threat.
Kreia was not only Exile's teacher but Mine as well because her lessons, especially about our actions creating echo's in the world is applicable to our world as well since our choices do affect others regardless if we personally see ramifications of it or not
I have played a lot of computer games over the years but Darth Traya/Kreia stands out as the greatest character written for a game I have ever encountered. Better than even some highly regarded movie characters too.
Yeah, playing it as a kid, she did actually get me to re-think what a 'good' thing was. I didn't even re-visit that until I was in college, so she's good food for thought. I studied philosophy in college, so I definitely see a bunch of mirror images in her, but the fact that she can encourage you to think about the consequences of your behavior awesome
I for one believe so much in the characters of Revan, Kraya, and Meetra and the writing and character development that the books and games have done that I believe Disney should make a movie called "Beneath the veil of the galaxy." Kraya's philosophy, The destruction of Malachor 5, the echo of the lack of the force, and the bonding created make for a story that should not be denied! I would fight to see this made into a major motion picture!
Honestly, a movie based within the KOTOR 2 time period that tells the same story is the best thing they could do. It gives such a unique perceptive on the Star Wars universe as a whole!
Kreia is by far one of the best characters in star wars lore. She has a complex philosophy that I absolutely love. Her way of thinking is how I believe I would choose if I were to be in that universe. Also, I do not believe she is evil. She isn't good. It isn't wrong to be self-serving. To want your beliefs to be seen as true. She didn't want the Jedi dead, she wanted them to see how she may be right. Murder, though may be unfortunate, was not her doing. It was the exile's doing. And though she had turned to the dark side, I imagine it as someone who breaks free from a way of thinking you were chained to. Yes, it's liberating and you will be on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. But she centered herself. She made it a priority to keep herself centered. To turn away from that power to teach what she believed to be true, instead of give in fully. Truly an inspiration. Not evil. Not good. Self-serving to pass on her knowledge, accepting her death. Her fate. Not a lust for power or desire for immortality.
Truly a masterclass in manipulation, that she somehow convinces hundreds of people that she isnt evil while trying to commit actions that would most likely eradicate life from the galaxy in the pursuit of an utterly delusional grudge against a universal constant. It would be like if I decided gravity was responsible for conflict because it kept people on the ground, then tried to destroy the concept of gravity.`
Man, we need another Star Wars game like this one. Together the first and second games make an awesome story. Rivaling the original movie trilogy. Out of interest, who did write her story and the KOTOR story? George Lucas probably had to approve it but i doubt he wrote it.
Yes we do! A third game was in the works, but it was shelved due to the financial issues of the company during development! Hopefully, they go back to it at some point in the future! Chris Avellone was the lead designer on the game at Obsidian! He wrote the game, and I'm pretty sure he wrote Kreia too (I could be wrong though) I believe George did give them the nod of approval for things, but other than that he didn't get involved. Did you know Revan was mean't to be included in The Clone Wars show? He was cut at the last minute 💔
I will definitely be looking forward to the next video on her, absolutely fascinating character wow. I also agree with you, the voice acting was on point, still gives me goosebumps when I hear it.
Kinda just my ramblings but I think it's best we don't know what her plan was in the end. After all that was the point of her lessons to meetra, to come to her own conclusions rather than rely on the opinions of others, and on the force alone. She even pointed it out herself when she stated that perhaps everything she said was a lie. (That and it's that unknown factor to her that makes her work so well)
mostly just curious if you had intentions to do so or not, i personally think it'd be cool to hear about some of the lore that wasn't mentioned in the original trilogy and post trilogy before disney took a scrub brush to the canon XD (also thank you again for pointing me in the direction of the kotor comic, i'm loving it so far, especially zayne. are you going to do a video on him at some point? i think he'd make a fun topic : D)
I didn't trust her from the get go. The hood over the eyes reminded me of Sidious and eyes rolling in the back of the head, it's the Sith that always have some kind of disfigurement or deformity.
@@jett_lea It mostly depends on who would be directing a movie based on Darth Traya since Disney practically allows the director to have almost complete control of the story.
@@ahsoka5216 ah, yeah I mean I don't really know anything about how Disney operates in that respect, but what I do know is if it is anything like the content they've put out since taking over, then I would rather them just leave her alone. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I have a really hard time imagining someone getting it right.
@@jett_lea Well, so far we know that Disney already changed a few ideas from that storyline because after TROS came out so did a dictionary about the movie. It goes into detail about how the sith troopers were named after powerful Sith. One of these Sith was involved with the Scourge of Malachor and she was the first force user to be able to make a super weapon out of a kyber crystal which is what the new Malachor is powered by (as we've seen in SW Rebels). She's even the one that spoke to Ezra through the holocron. Speaking of Rebels, Disney and Dave Filoni actually changed what happened on Malachor as well. They changed it to a Sith and Jedi conflict rather than a Mandalorian and Jedi conflict. Now, the Mandalorian Wars doesn't happen until a hundred years after that conflict. Also, in the new canon this timeline is called the Dark Wars or something like that. I think they'll keep most of the characters from that timeline canon except for Vitiate being the mastermind behind everything because I've noticed that before Disney announces a new hero or villain into canon they first introduce them into Galaxy of Heroes. I know alot of people say that things put into the game are not considered canon, but if you think about it the only characters in that game are canon and need to be approved by Disney to be added. The characters they have in that game are all of the characters from Kotor 1: Canderous, Bastilla Shan, Revan, Carth Onasi, HK-47, T3, and Darth Malak. As for Kotor 2 characters, they only have the Sith Triumvirate since that's the timeline they are going to change a little bit which is a shame because that game was my favorite out of the two.
I believe that, if we assume Kreia is actually Arren Kae, that she joined the Mandalorian Wars before Revan did. We know that Brianna is 25 years by the time of KOTOR 2. So she is born in 3976 BBY. The Revanchists joined the Wars in 3964 BBY, if the wiki is correct. Furthermore, we know that Kae was exiled 'almost a decade later' (after birthing Brianna), so she must've been exiled ca. 3966 BBY. This means that Kae joined the Wars about two years before Revan (approximately). Further evidence for this can be found in the dialogue: Mical: Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. And also this one: Mical: As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae before she was exiled. Those lines strongly imply that Kae was exiled when Revan was still training as a Jedi. Then there's these lines that further supports this if we assume Kreia and Kae are the same person: Kreia: But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever. Mical: And it is said that he returned to his first and final master to learn how to leave the order entirely, like she had. So as we see here, Kreia had already left the Order / been exiled before Revan joined the Wars, which fits perfectly with Kae having left the Order before Revan. Revan most likely sought out Kreia/Kae in secret so he could find out how to best leave the Order. It's also very likely that she was part of Revan's inspiration to join the Wars.
Comparing Kotor, the old EU aka new "Legends" (stupid name) with character such as: Kreia HK-47 Kyle Katarn Revan Mara Jade Exar Kun Bastila Jolee Bindo Admiral Thrawn Jacen Solo Jaina Solo To pretty much any character of the new Star Wars movies. They have greater depth, writing, characteristics and just better story. Disney failed so hard by ignoring all that was good about Star Wars, then replaced it all for no good reason and created a replacement, where everything new was bad.
To be fair, all these characters you have listed are in books or games or comics or all of the above, where the complexities of their characters can be more deeply explored. Heck, if you had just watched the original Star Wars movie, with no extra context about why Luke or Obi-Wan or Leia or Vader are supposed to be awesome characters, you might think them also lame and simple. The Nobody Farmboy ( Luke ) learns from the Mysterious Good Wizard ( Ben ) how to become a Knight ( Jedi ) so he can save the Princess ( Leia ) from the Evil Wizard's Castle ( Vader and the Death Star). You know, like, the most common medieval fantasy ever, just in space. Already in the new canon, I have found characters that I love just as much as Legends (though it is worth pointing out that some of them are the same characters that were in Legends). Finn, Thrawn, and Ahsoka Tano are three that I really like. In any case, I don't see Disney ever really scrapping such beloved stories. Either they won't touch the Old Republic at all (thus leaving the Legends canon intact) or they'll draw from it. I mean, we have already seen Disney make several callbacks to the Old Republic era, i.e. the Hammerhead Corvette in Rogue One, and Force Bonds in The Last Jedi
Yeah, the new characters suck in the piss poor sequel trilogy, but Ahsoka Tano and Assaj Ventress are well done in the clone wars show so credit where credit is due
You did a very good job with this video (must say that all your videos are very good quality)! There are some lore inconsistencies in the game, most likely because it was rushed, so they had to change the plot somewhat (possibly several times). For example, Kreia says the Council blamed/sentenced her for being responsible for Revan's fall, and the KOTOR Campaign Guide (which is not entirely reliable as a source) also says that Kreia was exiled for Revan and her other students joining the Mandalorian Wars. She traced Revan's footsteps to Malachor, where she then was corrupted to the Dark Side. But the game also implies that Kreia actually was exiled *BEFORE* the Revanchists left for the Wars. Kreia says that Revan returned to her one last time to learn how he could leave the Order *forever* . Mical also says that he approached her in order to learn how to leave the Order *entirely* , as she had (this must have taken place *before* he joined the Wars, so Kreia couldn't have been exiled for Revan joining the Wars). To me, this implies that Kreia had already left the Order (I'm taking that her 'leaving' the Order is synonymous with her being exiled here, as forever and entirely imply something permanent -- it doesn't make sense that she was *not* exiled, as Traya was all about taking revenge on the Jedi for "betraying" her). If she was actually in the Mandalorian Wars, it is impossible that she was exiled because of Revan joining the Wars (during the Exile's trial, they blamed Kreia, whom they most likely presumed was killed by then). And if Kreia was indeed Arren Kae, it is even possible that Kreia joined the Wars *before* Revan, as implied by Mical: *Revan had many masters, Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars* - to me, it seems as if Revan was currently in training when Kae left. Ultimately, I think there are two "drafts", the first where Kreia is Kae, and the other where they are different persons: 1. Kreia was exiled for having Brianna, and was subsequently exiled from the order. She possibly joined the Wars during the "early skirmishes" in the Outer Rim. Revan was inspired by her teachings and actions, and arrangeed a meeting with her, in order to learn how to best leave the Jedi. The Revanchists joined the war effort in aiding the Republic. Kae was still designated separately from the Revanchists (fighting alongside Yusanis), but Revan eventually welcomed her to them. Kae was most likely still more automonous, as the Exile, one of the highest-ranking generals, didn't remember her from the Wars, and seemed very surprised about it (exact line is: *I don't remember her - are you sure?* when talking to Kreia). If Kreia was indeed Kae, it also explains why the Exile didn't recognize Kreia on Peragus. Kreia was designated to Malachor V's surface by Revan, and was assumed dead when the MSG was activated. She survived, and found refuge in the Trayus Academy. She fell to the dark side, and eventually found Nihilus and Sion, whom also were products of the MSG being activated. Together, they formed the Sith Triumvirate. 2. Kreia and Kae were not the same person, and both trained Revan. Kreia's unorthodox teachings were often debated by the Council, and her students often recieved philosophical questions/puzzles, and they were called "Kreia's Conundrums". When the Wars broke out, the Council refused to aid the Republic, but Revan despised the Council's inaction. Revan and a majority of Kreia's students then joined the Wars, and she was blamed by the other Jedi on the Council for the Revanchists' fall. She was subsequently exiled, and retraced Revan's footsteps to Malachor V. She was corrupted by the teachings of the Trayus Academy and took on the title of Darth Traya. She finds Nihilus, a Force Wound created when the MSG was activated, and Sion, who used his constant pain to survive. They then formed the Sith Triumvirate. I prefer to believe that they were the same person though. On a side note, it is important to remember that many of the Revanchists were true followers of the Light Side: Mical calls these the 'true Jedi' ; those who waged war to save innocents (Revan initially belonged to this group, before he learned of the "true Sith" threat). Revan killed these off at Malachor V, also stated by Mical. Personally, I think a good portion of these was actually trained by Kreia/Kae. The Council didn't understand the purpose of the MSG; to kill off those who followed the light/not loyal to Revan, and corrupt the survivors to the Dark Side. So when they saw that all who came back with Revan were dark-sided, they just assumed the War was the cause, when it actually was Revan's plan to kill off light-sided/unloyal Jedi. This is stated by HK-47.
it's insane to come back to this video after watching your new ones. The jump of quality, your narration, your voice, your writing... it's mad. keep up the awesome work.
I wondered what the actual writers were getting at for some length of time with this story. I believe I finally understand to a certain degree. Kreia is the absence of all meaning and Nihilism. The exile is meaning itself. The force bonds, the feeling of what your actions cause. I believe it writers were essential trying to explain that rationally life looks bleak and without purpose, but through perception every single thing that we do has extreme consequence. Kreia, as much as I love her character embodies absolute rationale and Nihilism that destroys all good things. While I like to think I am a rational person, it is true some things cannot be explained by logic alone, human experience and feeling is something exclusive to those who are conscious. In the end I would say this story is beautifully written. You see a mysterious and even amoral antagonist first as a teacher and second as the villain. Over all, this game hits home with the duality of moral virtue. It is really a shame it will only be remembered as a star wars game, I feel star wars has much larger connotations.
I definitely have and I really enjoy your deeper content regarding the story. I am one of those oddballs that think Star Wars has a bigger meaning. I guess I wonder why we can't have our own poetic or literary genius. Keep up the good work, those who love abstract things like myself love it.
I really think we'll never see a character as well developed as her ever again in the Star wars franchise and I'm 50/50 okay with that because she alone could open up so much about the star wars universe to anyone new or old to the franchise and i don't want any character to replace that spot she has.
An awesome SW channel you have here! I have enjoyed my time with your videos about Revan, Nihilus, Sion, Exile/Meethra Surik and so on a lot! I would love to see a similar video about Darth Zannah because I like your videos and I enjoyed Bane trilogy as books a lot :)
What about the theory that says Kreia's plan was to eliminate the remaining Jedi and Sith and in consequence, make Meetra Surik go after Revan into the unknown regions, to rescue him and fight against the true sith? As if Kreia's goal was to aid his former student. Does that one make sense to you?
Kreia's plan was a bit odd. She took the Sith from Malachor, and use them to act as a gadfly against the Republic, but at the same time, obliterated the Jedi and sought to kill the force. Perhaps she wanted to strip 'The True Sith' of the force too, so that the Republic could win with ease. Who knows, she was a strange lady that Kreia :D
Could be... At this point the thing that makes most sense to me is that she couldn't stand that the Force controls the will and destiny of the living beings. Will continue my replay of Kotor2 soon and will think about it. Thanks for the reply :)
the writers left it up in the air on purpose ofc for us to interpret what her true endgame was. but from all of what we have seen what she wanted most was for someone to surpass her and become something more than sith or jedi and inherit her wisdom, knowledge, and all of her teachings. though at first she just wanted revenge on sith and jedi alike to strip them of the force as they did to her but after meeting the jedi exile and travelling alongside her she came to appreciate the value of walking alongside one who has experienced her pain.
My theory/head canon is that kreia was Aron Kai aka Brianna Kai/the Handmaidens mother and my evidence is 1 atris tells kreia I thought you died a malachor v and that’s where Aron died also atris tells the exile that kreia is not her name 2 kreia says she new Brianna’s mother and the way she said it has me thinking and 3 she is shown to have the least distaste for Brianna
their reliance on the force is little different from me being reliant on my brain. Of course you're reliant on something that is quite literally a part of you, why should you not be? am I doing something wrong if I use my hand to open doors, because I'm reliant on my hand? am I doing something wrong if I walk on my legs, because I'm reliant on my legs? She might be clever, but she is far from brilliant. On the contrary, she's completely delusional.
@@lenkagamine4145 Kreia is great teacher. She makes you learn, adapt and look further than you are looking now. Is person who can just make someone obey against their will using their I Win-Card really the best negotiator? When they lose their card they are utterly useless in their purpose. Like someone who has never learned to walk as they have always been carried. That is what Kreia warns against - relying on something which is inherently not your own.
@@vksasdgaming9472 Problem with that is the force IS inherently your own. Its an inherent part of a force user. Relying on it is no different than me relying on my tongue to speak or my feet to walk. Can the force be taken away? yes, under very precarious and extreme circumstances... But so can my tongue and feet, and in fact that is more likely to happen. You rely on the natural abilities you have. Of course you do. Its impossible not to, no matter what you do you're relying on *some* ability you have. It would be ridiculous to decide I need to get through life without hands, because I've become reliant on having hands, so why isnt it ridiculous to decide to get through life without the force when its available to you?
@@lenkagamine4145 Kreia sees what you suggest as easy way out. Being born wealthy and utterly ignorant of harsh reality on much more massive scale than just physical wealth and even more corrupting and insidious influence. Something that makes you utterly dependent of just one attribute someone may have which with overuse atrophies user's other abilities to uselessness. Why have physical strength if you have Force? Why know how different cultures and species' think when you have Force? Why see with electromagnetic radiation when you have Force? Without Force Jedi and Sith are weak and useless and she has seen it well enough.
@@vksasdgaming9472 She can see it however she wants, its ridiculous. Without arms I'm weak and useless. Without a brain anybody is useless. Obviously if you remove everything that makes someone good at something they wont be good at it. So what? its basically a tautology. Also its not even really correct. Most jedi and sith do train their skills. The force is part of what makes them skilled but not the only thing. Lightsaber training is augmented by the force sure, but they are still actually training and practicing different techniques. Most are relatively fit. Most also use their eyes and ears. etc. etc.
Until today, the wise words of Kreya's still echos in my life. She may have her own agenda, but she did give some important phylosophy to everyplayer to apply in their lives.
Hello! The theme is the 'Rebuilt Jedi Enclave Theme' from Knight of The Old Republic 2! The version I use at the end of the video is a piano cover created by one Lucas King! You can find it here - th-cam.com/video/wGkD8WLI_gs/w-d-xo.html
I believe that Kreia was what Luke should have been like in TLJ, but they were too keen to "let the past die", so I guess they didn't look at the right place for inspiration.
I find Kylo's goal in TLJA to be similar to that of Kreia's, as he was both Jedi and Sith and felt betrayed by both and wanted to destroy both of them. It's fascinating that in twisted way Kylo was rigth as destroying both factions would result in peace and balance. Unfortunately, his plan was useless as TROS just undid all his motives.
I always thought her motive was too destroy the force. That she wanted to free the Galaxy from the force controlling everyone's destiny and causing pointless conflict.
Thing is with or without the Force, there will always be conflict look at the Crime organisation corrupt governments. There will always be war and conflict. I mean look at the mandalorians look at the trade federation. So I don't buy it that "The force needs to be destroyed to free everything from conflict" Bullcrap
Ironic she became Lord of Betrayal after being betrayed by each orders that are effectively the embodiment of the 2 sides of the force. Its one of those times where you 100% sympathize with the path someone chooses despite it leading to an extreme conclusion with a bloody road map to follow.
Sorry for a long comment but I'm just finding this video 3 years later... I've recently gotten back into the Kotor series and just beat 2 back to back - female LS (Meetra) and a male DS who kept the masters alive (which I feel was the more original "canon" way in the original devs minds but that's my observation). Through both play throughs, I came to both love and hate Kreia. So well written. So deep. Yet so hypocritical and arrogant herself even as one who despises arrogance and hypocrisy. I genuinely felt used and manipulated by the end and hated her for it even as she actually cared for the exile. Masterfully done. Side note: while I think I still like 1 better as an all around game, the pace of 2 from Dxun-Korriban-Onderon through to the end is exhilarating. The "reveal" isn't as massive as 1, but the writing comes to head after the second trial and you feel like everything you went through is paying off. I am on console so no RCM, but it's still an amazing story with some great moments. Rolling through the Trayas Academy as a Sith Lord wrecking everyone was so satisfying. Also, turning the Handmaiden and Mira (stayed grey through Nar Shaddaa) into Dark Jedi was so awesome. I just can't say enough about how great 2 is as an experience and wish they would have had an extra year to polish it.
actually the first purge was a pure hell for jedi than the second one was. because at that sith was directly active and jedi turned to dark side due to loss of faith in jedi. and palpatine is the most ridiculous blood thirsty tyrant who actually had no real cause for power. the sith was actually built on betrayal, exile, suffering and hate. but palpatine's motive doesn't have any of this........ those who are with me, press like. and those disagree with me, you are requested to correct me.
Kreia is one of the most interesting characters in all of Star Wars. The mad woman tried to kill the force and that is worth the price of admission alone, never mind how much she makes you think.
Hello 100% Star Wars, I was thinking about something. This video you made here is incredible! Beautifully explained and so extremely well thought through. And to a point we do have some similar ideas for videos, and therefore I was wondering if we should try to do a collab video?
Thank you buddy, that really means a lot! At this present time, I want to focus primarily on getting my channel filled with more content. Collaborations are definitely something I'm interested in doing for the future, just not quite yet.
One thing you got wrong. Kreia did not drain the Jedi Masters. She severed the force from them only, and they died because they could not live without the force. They wre too dependent on the force. That is why they died.
Honestly, she could have solved a majority of the galaxy's problems by ridding it of the force, almost every major conflict on the galaxy was cause by jedi and sith.
I was wondering if there were force users that used the force to wield multiple lightsabers telekinetically. Now I actually want to see this in action.
She had the potential of being a true neutral character and the embodiment of "balance". Probably my favorite Star Wars character from a philosophical perspective.
She wasnt "neutral" per se. She shifted toward the dark side because its power serve her purpose and was fully aware of her own hypocrisy. For her the "balance" isnt the goal, the galaxy's freedom from force users is.
@@mdd4296 Hence I refer to her as having "the potential"... if only the character had more opportunity for growth. She certainly has, in my opinion, the best background story of any of the Star Wars characters.
![Why the Force Itself HATED Abeloth [The Anti Force] - Star Wars Explained](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/H0QBgf24ggg/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey guys, If you enjoyed the video, feel free to join my discord server, and you can have a chat with me and like minded fans about Star Wars! I hope to see you there 😄 - Come and Join me on Discord! - discord.gg/ZA735En
100% Star Wars Where's the second part? ;P
The Know about Anakin before he was born
Personally I think rose is better... Said no one.
Do you think she’s Arren Kae?
Kreias true name is Arren Kae, there's a lot pointing towards it throughout the game, and the part where Arren Kae was revans first master, but then kreia refers to herself as revans first and last master, that pretty much seals it
Sadly Kreia's philosophy died with her and the jedi went on to be what they've always been. Then again she was never mentioned in that Revan book. Sadly part of me hopes they don't bring her back unless they either have someone who truly understands her character and won't just turn her into some cliche dark side element, or better still, the original writing team from Obsidian.
Did you hear about the theories of Kreia being the one in the Malachor temple in Star Wars Rebels? The thought sends shivers down my spine 😫
If it is, it'd be epic for her to resurface in the time of another great manipulator like Sidious who sometimes makes me wonder if he ever stumbled across one of Traya's holocrons from her Sith days since his methods mirror her belief in not relying on the force to get ones way but rather other skills. I just hope they write her correctly and research her character thoroughly if they're going to include her. Perhaps she still wants The Force dead
Their interactions would certainly be awesome!
through her teachings passed on to Revan - the great Rule of Two was born. Her beliefs of superiority of the individual strength became the cornerstone of the Rule. Despite anything - the Rule of Two is eternal - it's the state in which Sith can truly prevail without consuming themselves
Well it was a long time ago in a galaxy far away, and I don't see any Jedi/Sith running aroumd. Maybe she was successful after all.
Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn.
Well said
This is evidence of my suspicions. She tests the Exile. She tests everyone. Always. She doesn't only test. In some way... Traya *is* a test. Would you trust such a person? It is difficult to say. Would you ally yourself with her? Also difficult. Many questions there are that test people's understanding of everything. This is a character so deeply written, that I am starting to really wonder - how does one make such a character? It is beyond my understanding. Such a character, that you can analyse so deeply, to reach the most difficult of questions, asked by many of the intellectuals worldwide.
Kreia was initially created to the be the antithesis to all Star Wars lore and Force mumbo-jumbo. Basically a tool for the development team to point out everything they thought was wrong with the universe. And boy did she deliver. The one character that really made you think about the whole thing. She is one of the best characters ever written... No matter what story you look at. I am still not convinced that she was all "Sith" even in the end. At least she would not subscribe to a Sith philosophy if she was given the chance. She saw the flaws in the Sith and in the Jedi a like and wasn't a huge fan of either one. But mostly she just wanted to kill the force, the thing that controlled all life in the universe and let people be people, without outside control.
Arren Kae, the mother of Handmaiden... But who was the father???
The Echani General Yusanis :D
Kreia, the only being in Star Wars, that truly understands the true nature of the Force, it is nothing but an amoral puppeteer master God, that tries to achieve balance, by the eternal cycle of death and destruction caused by both the light side and the dark side, or in this case, the Jedi and the Sith.
She wanted to freed the galaxy from such cycle, even if it means killing 90 or 80 percent of the life of the galaxy, just to make sure that Force never influences the galaxy into a constant state of destruction just to achieve balance. This is why I like the Kreia as a character, she realizes the the Force is the actual threat.
+A Worshipper of Sheevism
I don't think even Kreia understood the true nature of the Force. While more learned on it than many, like most, she was projecting her own behavior onto it as well.
Trying to imply the Force has a will, to me, is like implying the ocean or space has a will, simply because it responds to actions and will cause things to happen as it 'balances out'. It is implying intelligence and will where there is none, not in the way we describe when we use those terms at least.
Rather than it being a puppeteer (as Kreia implies), or a seesaw (as the Jedi imply) or a driving element of existence (as the Sith imply), I would describe the Force as a pendulum (closer to how Jolee Bindo describes it). It does not try to force a balance between light and dark. It merely exists and naturally gravitates towards the center, and living creatures are what cause 'disturbances' that shift it in one direction or another, causing it to swing back and forth until either stopped again in a balanced state (difficult to do) or it comes to rest on its own (unlikely due to the nature of life causing actions).
A Worshipper Of Sheevism wrong
DBArtsCreators are you fucking joking? It's common lore that the Jedi assert the force has a will.
Kreia: Meetra Surik never told you what happen to your mother
Brianna: She told me enough, she told me you kill her
Kreia: No, I am your mother
Brianna: No, that not true, that impossible
Kreia: Search your feelings, you know it to be true
Brianna:Nooooooooooooooooooooo
PLOT TWIST OF THE CENTURY
*the exile ( cuz the Handmaiden is available as a companion only in the male playthrough and Meetra Surik is the canon, female exile)
@@SardonicJosh And Brianna travelled with Surik in the old legends canon.
@@RogersRoger yes
@@SardonicJosh yeah I ignore that, complete BS about making the exile female canonically when in KOTOR 2 allot more things (like artis hating you) makes more sense as a male, and the handmaiden is a better companion than lame micheal.
I am not opposed to the exile being female it's just that allot of things in KOTOR 2 as I said make more sense as a male exile but that's just me
I used to despise her character when i was younger, but now that i am much older and I re-examine her as a character, she was brilliantly written. It is sad that KOTOR2 was rushed and was never given the proper update it needed.
It definitely takes a maturer mind to truly understand her complexities! I was the same when I was young!
It actually was updated but by the fans. There's a restored content mod that brings back all the content that Obsidian had to cut before rushing the game out. It makes the game so much better.
@MrNotadream not from a jedi...
steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=485537937
@@Sarkkoth Actually, that mod is legit made by KOTOR II's developers. What, you thought that the restored content just appeared out of thin air?
@@shyper4362 lol wtf are you on about? The Sith Lords restored content mod was made by a team of modders who dug through the games files and found unused dialogue, and story elements. They then implemented and rebuilt the missing content stitching together their own to patch it all together, as well as fixing numerous bugs, and offering compatibility with other popular mods. It has never been official until it was endorsed by obsidian and later aspyr who will be releasing it as dlc for the switch and current gen console releases. It was not by any means made by the developer.
Kreia’s like a wise grandma, she could probably bake your favorite cookies and give you deep life advice.
Oh god I've never heard that before 😂😂
TheAnnouncer yeah but you have to make the cookies from scratch
TheAnnouncer Well said
TheAnnouncer xD
TheAnnouncer, she’ll bake it for you but you must buy and make the dough.
Kreia IS Arren Kae. There's no denying it, Arren Kae was presumed dead at the battle of Malachor V as stated by Master Kavar, to which she retorts that she simply became stronger. She despises the handmaiden because her birth meant Kae's exile. Arren kae was a known Jedi historian, Kreia is a historian herself. Kreia states that she knew kae as the handmaidens mother, and everything about her, went in to describe Kae's life story. Detailing that her teachings were frowned upon, anyone see where I'm going here?
I think it's highly likely.
Daniel Thompson that makes sense
I have also suspected that Kreia is actually Master Kae. Some additional supporting elements is that Kae was one of Revan’s teachers, and a controversial one as well. Kreia definitely fits the bill in that regard as well. Master Kae was said to be beautiful, and, as hinted at by Atton, Kreia once was, but has been weathered by “hard living” as he puts it. The light gray robes of Kae also could fit with some of the themes we’ve seen, a counter to Kreia/Traya’s black robes of being a Sith, with these off white robes signifying her service to the Jedi at that time, and her brown robes seen during most of the game representing her balance, as it were. She also knows a lot about Kae, though that could simply be a result of being a contemporary to her. Still, two mysterious and controversial female masters/teachers seems a bit of a stretch, and Kreia leaving out that bit of information seems like something she might do...
Not to mention that if you compare Arren Kae and Kreia/Traya, you will notice some physical similarities as well. Like their robes for example. While the colors are different, the style of the robes is exactly the same. The hair, also, has the exact same style. Finally, They both used telekinetic lightsabers, though Arren used two blue lightsabers, while Traya used three purple ones.
Huh, never thought of that. Brilliant. Why are you not writing for Disney. God knows, they need someone.
So much better writing than the rise of skywalker,
Better writing than most of star wars as a whole.
Traya made Palpatine look like a piker!
She was a very, very *unique* character 😃
She was very powerful, but palpatine was easily the most powerful sith of all time
I agree that Palpatine is the stronger Sith Lord, but Kreia's plan to destroy the force was much more ambitious. Palpatine was ultimately a slave to the dark side while Kreia saw the force for what it was.
Helvetica Neue honestly, I wouldn’t say that paplatine is as strong as traya. We didn’t get to see many of her abilities or most of the ancient sith’s abilities, so we couldn’t say much other than the fact that all ancient sith were far stronger than the “modern” sith
@@minguspowers7771 Palpatine in legends :p
In my own opinion, Darth Traya is the greatest sith lord that ever lived and my personal favorite. Her beliefs are so radical and she was the master of Revan and Nihilus for god's sake. Only Darth Ruin came close to what she was belief wise. Traya is proof that you don't always need faith in the Force, just faith in yourself.
Wait I thought Ruin was bad because of the fact that he had a philosophy based solely on himself, rather than a greater goal? He also led many of his fellow Sith followers to their destruction; granted the Sith do manipulate each other, but still.
Love Palpatine, but when it comes to her conviction and her ideology I'm gonna have to say Kreia's my favorite Sith. The way she sees the force as a manipulative god that creates endlessly repeating wars for its own amusement is a really profound way to see the never ending struggle between the Jedi and the Sith.
Agreed!
😑
Kreia is the best Star Wars character by far. Hell, one of the best characters ever made, period.
Amen.
I wanted to kreia to tuck me in at night and kiss me on the forehead. Then she betrayed me and I was like "you dumb bitch your gonna die like the rest. Come back to me god damnit."
The second i saw her using those purple Lightsabers i knew that she would be an amazing character
🙏
Always with the regal color.
I don't blame Kreia for leaving the Jedi Order after she got blamed for encouraging Revan to go to war.
I don't either.
100% Star Wars I would leave if I got the blame for my former student going to fight then becoming a Sith Lord who'd eventually save The Republic by killing his former close freind.
Kreia, the only being in Star Wars, that truly understands the true nature of the Force, it is nothing but an amoral puppeteer master God, that tries to achieve balance, by the eternal cycle of death and destruction caused by both the light side and the dark side, or in this case, the Jedi and the Sith.
She wanted to freed the galaxy from such cycle, even if it means killing 90 or 80 percent of the life of the galaxy, just to make sure that Force never influences the galaxy into a constant state of destruction just to achieve balance. This is why I like the Kreia as a character, she realizes the the Force is the actual threat.
“The sith is a belief”-Traya
The new trilogy would be wise to bring this up in the IX movie
Yeah... about that
this aged like milk
Kreia was not only Exile's teacher but Mine as well because her lessons, especially about our actions creating echo's in the world is applicable to our world as well since our choices do affect others regardless if we personally see ramifications of it or not
5:15 they look like they're about to drop the freshest single of the summer.
DespaSITHo.
LOOOOOL!
This shouldn't have made me laugh so much. Dammit.
Their new album is; "The Painful Hungery Betrayal."
I have played a lot of computer games over the years but Darth Traya/Kreia stands out as the greatest character written for a game I have ever encountered. Better than even some highly regarded movie characters too.
Traya is one of my favorites. I wished she was brought into the new cannon even further.
Hopefully a character that's similar will be brought in. I'm hoping that they reboot the franchise and tell their stories again in more detail!
Yeah, playing it as a kid, she did actually get me to re-think what a 'good' thing was. I didn't even re-visit that until I was in college, so she's good food for thought. I studied philosophy in college, so I definitely see a bunch of mirror images in her, but the fact that she can encourage you to think about the consequences of your behavior awesome
@MrNotadream i mean....i thought they handled the mandalorian well. but maybe thats just cause disney can pull off samurai/western media.
I for one believe so much in the characters of Revan, Kraya, and Meetra and the writing and character development that the books and games have done that I believe Disney should make a movie called "Beneath the veil of the galaxy." Kraya's philosophy, The destruction of Malachor 5, the echo of the lack of the force, and the bonding created make for a story that should not be denied! I would fight to see this made into a major motion picture!
Honestly, a movie based within the KOTOR 2 time period that tells the same story is the best thing they could do. It gives such a unique perceptive on the Star Wars universe as a whole!
Canf happen due to contradictions.
I would watch a movie based SOLELY on the battle of Malachor 5, especially the activation of the Mass Shadow Generator
One of the best characters of all video game history
She was supposed to be my grandma.
Kreia is by far one of the best characters in star wars lore. She has a complex philosophy that I absolutely love. Her way of thinking is how I believe I would choose if I were to be in that universe. Also, I do not believe she is evil. She isn't good. It isn't wrong to be self-serving. To want your beliefs to be seen as true. She didn't want the Jedi dead, she wanted them to see how she may be right. Murder, though may be unfortunate, was not her doing. It was the exile's doing. And though she had turned to the dark side, I imagine it as someone who breaks free from a way of thinking you were chained to. Yes, it's liberating and you will be on the complete opposite side of the spectrum. But she centered herself. She made it a priority to keep herself centered. To turn away from that power to teach what she believed to be true, instead of give in fully. Truly an inspiration. Not evil. Not good. Self-serving to pass on her knowledge, accepting her death. Her fate. Not a lust for power or desire for immortality.
Well said!
Truly a masterclass in manipulation, that she somehow convinces hundreds of people that she isnt evil while trying to commit actions that would most likely eradicate life from the galaxy in the pursuit of an utterly delusional grudge against a universal constant. It would be like if I decided gravity was responsible for conflict because it kept people on the ground, then tried to destroy the concept of gravity.`
Man, we need another Star Wars game like this one. Together the first and second games make an awesome story. Rivaling the original movie trilogy.
Out of interest, who did write her story and the KOTOR story? George Lucas probably had to approve it but i doubt he wrote it.
Yes we do! A third game was in the works, but it was shelved due to the financial issues of the company during development! Hopefully, they go back to it at some point in the future!
Chris Avellone was the lead designer on the game at Obsidian! He wrote the game, and I'm pretty sure he wrote Kreia too (I could be wrong though) I believe George did give them the nod of approval for things, but other than that he didn't get involved. Did you know Revan was mean't to be included in The Clone Wars show? He was cut at the last minute 💔
Benji Rivaling? More like completely demolishing it.
I will definitely be looking forward to the next video on her, absolutely fascinating character wow. I also agree with you, the voice acting was on point, still gives me goosebumps when I hear it.
Is there going to be another video on her?? How did you know?! 🌝
Kinda just my ramblings but I think it's best we don't know what her plan was in the end. After all that was the point of her lessons to meetra, to come to her own conclusions rather than rely on the opinions of others, and on the force alone. She even pointed it out herself when she stated that perhaps everything she said was a lie. (That and it's that unknown factor to her that makes her work so well)
That's what makes her so complex. There's so many possible ways of interpreting her intentions.
indeed. on a side note i'm curious, do you plan on doing any videos pertaining to the post return of the jedi legends canon?
Post isn't my strong suit, but if there's a demand then why not :D
mostly just curious if you had intentions to do so or not, i personally think it'd be cool to hear about some of the lore that wasn't mentioned in the original trilogy and post trilogy before disney took a scrub brush to the canon XD
(also thank you again for pointing me in the direction of the kotor comic, i'm loving it so far, especially zayne. are you going to do a video on him at some point? i think he'd make a fun topic : D)
I'll get to Zayne one day :) I've always preferred the history of Star Wars (ever since I was young)
She was Better than old Creamy Sheev. He Built on an Existing Foundation, while Kreia Built her own Foundation.
It's unknown if she really was Arren Kae, but what little is known of Kae is that she was a formidable warrior.
It's a interesting plot point, left open for interpretation and I like that. The dots just seem to connect though!
100% Star Wars i know its not confirmed but i really do believe she is Arren Kae, way too many dots that connect! Lol. Good video!
I totally believe it because there's a lot of reasons to believe it with nothing suggesting otherwise.
Thank you!
I agree :D
You don’t have to agree with Kreia’s philosophy to appreciate her. She’s just that great.
Indeed!
I didn't trust her from the get go. The hood over the eyes reminded me of Sidious and eyes rolling in the back of the head, it's the Sith that always have some kind of disfigurement or deformity.
That's very true!!
she aint no sith though :)
If they ever made a movie about her, I would die of pure happiness.
It's a nice thought, but unfortunately it would be in Disney's hands and they would do her absolutely no justice.
@@jett_lea It mostly depends on who would be directing a movie based on Darth Traya since Disney practically allows the director to have almost complete control of the story.
@@ahsoka5216 ah, yeah I mean I don't really know anything about how Disney operates in that respect, but what I do know is if it is anything like the content they've put out since taking over, then I would rather them just leave her alone. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I have a really hard time imagining someone getting it right.
@@jett_lea Well, so far we know that Disney already changed a few ideas from that storyline because after TROS came out so did a dictionary about the movie. It goes into detail about how the sith troopers were named after powerful Sith. One of these Sith was involved with the Scourge of Malachor and she was the first force user to be able to make a super weapon out of a kyber crystal which is what the new Malachor is powered by (as we've seen in SW Rebels). She's even the one that spoke to Ezra through the holocron.
Speaking of Rebels, Disney and Dave Filoni actually changed what happened on Malachor as well. They changed it to a Sith and Jedi conflict rather than a Mandalorian and Jedi conflict. Now, the Mandalorian Wars doesn't happen until a hundred years after that conflict. Also, in the new canon this timeline is called the Dark Wars or something like that.
I think they'll keep most of the characters from that timeline canon except for Vitiate being the mastermind behind everything because I've noticed that before Disney announces a new hero or villain into canon they first introduce them into Galaxy of Heroes.
I know alot of people say that things put into the game are not considered canon, but if you think about it the only characters in that game are canon and need to be approved by Disney to be added.
The characters they have in that game are all of the characters from Kotor 1: Canderous, Bastilla Shan, Revan, Carth Onasi, HK-47, T3, and Darth Malak.
As for Kotor 2 characters, they only have the Sith Triumvirate since that's the timeline they are going to change a little bit which is a shame because that game was my favorite out of the two.
I cant believe how beautifully written out all those characters are and how it all works so good together to create a fascinating story.
I believe that, if we assume Kreia is actually Arren Kae, that she joined the Mandalorian Wars before Revan did. We know that Brianna is 25 years by the time of KOTOR 2. So she is born in 3976 BBY. The Revanchists joined the Wars in 3964 BBY, if the wiki is correct. Furthermore, we know that Kae was exiled 'almost a decade later' (after birthing Brianna), so she must've been exiled ca. 3966 BBY. This means that Kae joined the Wars about two years before Revan (approximately).
Further evidence for this can be found in the dialogue:
Mical: Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars.
And also this one:
Mical: As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae before she was exiled.
Those lines strongly imply that Kae was exiled when Revan was still training as a Jedi.
Then there's these lines that further supports this if we assume Kreia and Kae are the same person:
Kreia: But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever.
Mical: And it is said that he returned to his first and final master to learn how to leave the order entirely, like she had.
So as we see here, Kreia had already left the Order / been exiled before Revan joined the Wars, which fits perfectly with Kae having left the Order before Revan. Revan most likely sought out Kreia/Kae in secret so he could find out how to best leave the Order. It's also very likely that she was part of Revan's inspiration to join the Wars.
Comparing Kotor, the old EU aka new "Legends" (stupid name) with character such as:
Kreia
HK-47
Kyle Katarn
Revan
Mara Jade
Exar Kun
Bastila
Jolee Bindo
Admiral Thrawn
Jacen Solo
Jaina Solo
To pretty much any character of the new Star Wars movies. They have greater depth, writing, characteristics and just better story. Disney failed so hard by ignoring all that was good about Star Wars, then replaced it all for no good reason and created a replacement, where everything new was bad.
To be fair, all these characters you have listed are in books or games or comics or all of the above, where the complexities of their characters can be more deeply explored. Heck, if you had just watched the original Star Wars movie, with no extra context about why Luke or Obi-Wan or Leia or Vader are supposed to be awesome characters, you might think them also lame and simple. The Nobody Farmboy ( Luke ) learns from the Mysterious Good Wizard ( Ben ) how to become a Knight ( Jedi ) so he can save the Princess ( Leia ) from the Evil Wizard's Castle ( Vader and the Death Star). You know, like, the most common medieval fantasy ever, just in space.
Already in the new canon, I have found characters that I love just as much as Legends (though it is worth pointing out that some of them are the same characters that were in Legends). Finn, Thrawn, and Ahsoka Tano are three that I really like.
In any case, I don't see Disney ever really scrapping such beloved stories. Either they won't touch the Old Republic at all (thus leaving the Legends canon intact) or they'll draw from it. I mean, we have already seen Disney make several callbacks to the Old Republic era, i.e. the Hammerhead Corvette in Rogue One, and Force Bonds in The Last Jedi
You Forgot one more the most underrated unexplored character in KOTOR 2: G0-T0
Ya know that like 85% of the eu is shit, right? Don't believe me? Look up "the Darksaber" superweapon. This crap is retarded.
Bloodstainer Original trilogy fanboys, they're who Disney and EA are trying to appeal to.
Yeah, the new characters suck in the piss poor sequel trilogy, but Ahsoka Tano and Assaj Ventress are well done in the clone wars show so credit where credit is due
the idea of seeing the living force itself as the root of all treachery and conflict is such an interesting take on it
You did a very good job with this video (must say that all your videos are very good quality)!
There are some lore inconsistencies in the game, most likely because it was rushed, so they had to change the plot somewhat (possibly several times). For example, Kreia says the Council blamed/sentenced her for being responsible for Revan's fall, and the KOTOR Campaign Guide (which is not entirely reliable as a source) also says that Kreia was exiled for Revan and her other students joining the Mandalorian Wars. She traced Revan's footsteps to Malachor, where she then was corrupted to the Dark Side.
But the game also implies that Kreia actually was exiled *BEFORE* the Revanchists left for the Wars. Kreia says that Revan returned to her one last time to learn how he could leave the Order *forever* . Mical also says that he approached her in order to learn how to leave the Order *entirely* , as she had (this must have taken place *before* he joined the Wars, so Kreia couldn't have been exiled for Revan joining the Wars). To me, this implies that Kreia had already left the Order (I'm taking that her 'leaving' the Order is synonymous with her being exiled here, as forever and entirely imply something permanent -- it doesn't make sense that she was *not* exiled, as Traya was all about taking revenge on the Jedi for "betraying" her).
If she was actually in the Mandalorian Wars, it is impossible that she was exiled because of Revan joining the Wars (during the Exile's trial, they blamed Kreia, whom they most likely presumed was killed by then). And if Kreia was indeed Arren Kae, it is even possible that Kreia joined the Wars *before* Revan, as implied by Mical: *Revan had many masters, Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars* - to me, it seems as if Revan was currently in training when Kae left.
Ultimately, I think there are two "drafts", the first where Kreia is Kae, and the other where they are different persons:
1. Kreia was exiled for having Brianna, and was subsequently exiled from the order. She possibly joined the Wars during the "early skirmishes" in the Outer Rim. Revan was inspired by her teachings and actions, and arrangeed a meeting with her, in order to learn how to best leave the Jedi. The Revanchists joined the war effort in aiding the Republic. Kae was still designated separately from the Revanchists (fighting alongside Yusanis), but Revan eventually welcomed her to them. Kae was most likely still more automonous, as the Exile, one of the highest-ranking generals, didn't remember her from the Wars, and seemed very surprised about it (exact line is: *I don't remember her - are you sure?* when talking to Kreia). If Kreia was indeed Kae, it also explains why the Exile didn't recognize Kreia on Peragus. Kreia was designated to Malachor V's surface by Revan, and was assumed dead when the MSG was activated. She survived, and found refuge in the Trayus Academy. She fell to the dark side, and eventually found Nihilus and Sion, whom also were products of the MSG being activated. Together, they formed the Sith Triumvirate.
2. Kreia and Kae were not the same person, and both trained Revan. Kreia's unorthodox teachings were often debated by the Council, and her students often recieved philosophical questions/puzzles, and they were called "Kreia's Conundrums". When the Wars broke out, the Council refused to aid the Republic, but Revan despised the Council's inaction. Revan and a majority of Kreia's students then joined the Wars, and she was blamed by the other Jedi on the Council for the Revanchists' fall. She was subsequently exiled, and retraced Revan's footsteps to Malachor V. She was corrupted by the teachings of the Trayus Academy and took on the title of Darth Traya. She finds Nihilus, a Force Wound created when the MSG was activated, and Sion, who used his constant pain to survive. They then formed the Sith Triumvirate.
I prefer to believe that they were the same person though.
On a side note, it is important to remember that many of the Revanchists were true followers of the Light Side: Mical calls these the 'true Jedi' ; those who waged war to save innocents (Revan initially belonged to this group, before he learned of the "true Sith" threat). Revan killed these off at Malachor V, also stated by Mical. Personally, I think a good portion of these was actually trained by Kreia/Kae. The Council didn't understand the purpose of the MSG; to kill off those who followed the light/not loyal to Revan, and corrupt the survivors to the Dark Side. So when they saw that all who came back with Revan were dark-sided, they just assumed the War was the cause, when it actually was Revan's plan to kill off light-sided/unloyal Jedi. This is stated by HK-47.
it's insane to come back to this video after watching your new ones. The jump of quality, your narration, your voice, your writing... it's mad. keep up the awesome work.
"Who is Darth Traya?" My all time Favourite Star Wars character.....That's who She is....
One of my favourite too for sure!
She's amazing. I hope they bring her into one of the shows or movies. Or at least mention her.
It is so strange. My name is Traya and I stumbled upon Darth Traya when I was younger. Its so cool that she is so powerful and loved.
I wondered what the actual writers were getting at for some length of time with this story. I believe I finally understand to a certain degree. Kreia is the absence of all meaning and Nihilism. The exile is meaning itself. The force bonds, the feeling of what your actions cause. I believe it writers were essential trying to explain that rationally life looks bleak and without purpose, but through perception every single thing that we do has extreme consequence. Kreia, as much as I love her character embodies absolute rationale and Nihilism that destroys all good things. While I like to think I am a rational person, it is true some things cannot be explained by logic alone, human experience and feeling is something exclusive to those who are conscious. In the end I would say this story is beautifully written. You see a mysterious and even amoral antagonist first as a teacher and second as the villain. Over all, this game hits home with the duality of moral virtue. It is really a shame it will only be remembered as a star wars game, I feel star wars has much larger connotations.
You should check out my Kreia's Motives explained video if that helps :D But you're right, it is the most advanced Star Wars story even today still. 😁
I definitely have and I really enjoy your deeper content regarding the story. I am one of those oddballs that think Star Wars has a bigger meaning. I guess I wonder why we can't have our own poetic or literary genius. Keep up the good work, those who love abstract things like myself love it.
Thank you pal, I really appreciate the kind words :)
Would be tight to have old republic series of film with darth traya as protagonist
I'd honestly prefer a TV Show. I think you can get a lot more into it.
My God that music is back in my head from playing hours upon hours of Kotor 2
It's simply beautiful 😩
She can kill people with madness after being confused with her mystic words
I could listen to her talk forever I swear.
Alot of people say traya was weak. I disagree. Her power in the force is so strong. She had many abilities.
Kreia/Traya is highly underrated. She's like Palpatine if he was a woman.
Definitely!
100% Star Wars She personally reminds me of my Grandma who would encourage me to question things.
I see what you mean yes!
Definitely Palpatines great great great great great great great gm
even better :P
She has the best story arc of all star wars characters. Her And Revan of course. Epic characters
I really think we'll never see a character as well developed as her ever again in the Star wars franchise and I'm 50/50 okay with that because she alone could open up so much about the star wars universe to anyone new or old to the franchise and i don't want any character to replace that spot she has.
She is utterly unique.
KOTOR 2 really has some of the best writing. The story, the characters, it’s so incredibly well done.
Kreia/traya is like master teacher of so much strong characters
An awesome SW channel you have here! I have enjoyed my time with your videos about Revan, Nihilus, Sion, Exile/Meethra Surik and so on a lot! I would love to see a similar video about Darth Zannah because I like your videos and I enjoyed Bane trilogy as books a lot :)
Thank you for the kind words, it means a lot! Darth Zannah is a good shout :)
Traya probably should have been called
The lord of the mind because she can control peoples minds so much
Your entire channel is absolutely underrated my friend
That means a lot, thanks Mahfuz.
Kriea has a hell of a story as a youth, as well... and maybe a different name too. 😉
Maybe 😎
100% Star Wars
Betrayal
Be
Traya
L
Betrayal
What about the theory that says Kreia's plan was to eliminate the remaining Jedi and Sith and in consequence, make Meetra Surik go after Revan into the unknown regions, to rescue him and fight against the true sith?
As if Kreia's goal was to aid his former student. Does that one make sense to you?
Kreia's plan was a bit odd. She took the Sith from Malachor, and use them to act as a gadfly against the Republic, but at the same time, obliterated the Jedi and sought to kill the force. Perhaps she wanted to strip 'The True Sith' of the force too, so that the Republic could win with ease. Who knows, she was a strange lady that Kreia :D
Could be... At this point the thing that makes most sense to me is that she couldn't stand that the Force controls the will and destiny of the living beings. Will continue my replay of Kotor2 soon and will think about it. Thanks for the reply :)
No problem dude, I hope you enjoy your replay :)
Thank you for making a new video about this :)
the writers left it up in the air on purpose ofc for us to interpret what her true endgame was. but from all of what we have seen what she wanted most was for someone to surpass her and become something more than sith or jedi and inherit her wisdom, knowledge, and all of her teachings. though at first she just wanted revenge on sith and jedi alike to strip them of the force as they did to her but after meeting the jedi exile and travelling alongside her she came to appreciate the value of walking alongside one who has experienced her pain.
So, when she was a Jedi, she was basically Socrates: except instead of choosing hemlock, she accepted exile.
How great would the films be these days if they had such well written characters like this? Just imagine.....
I imagine... every day.
The most interesting Sith Lord ever!
My theory/head canon is that kreia was Aron Kai aka Brianna Kai/the Handmaidens mother and my evidence is 1 atris tells kreia I thought you died a malachor v and that’s where Aron died also atris tells the exile that kreia is not her name 2 kreia says she new Brianna’s mother and the way she said it has me thinking and 3 she is shown to have the least distaste for Brianna
Man you just made me want to play kotor 1 and 2 by the you got another sub love your content
Thank you for the support :)
If you have Xbox One, the KOTOR's are both going to be on there come the end of April 👌
Just had to stop by and say thank you for telling me about the kotor games just downloaded them have a great day man
I'm glad I could be of help :D You have a great day too!
Kreia was brilliant teacher. She hated extremism and demanded you to improve yourself as without The Force both Jedi and Sith are weak and useless.
their reliance on the force is little different from me being reliant on my brain. Of course you're reliant on something that is quite literally a part of you, why should you not be? am I doing something wrong if I use my hand to open doors, because I'm reliant on my hand? am I doing something wrong if I walk on my legs, because I'm reliant on my legs?
She might be clever, but she is far from brilliant. On the contrary, she's completely delusional.
@@lenkagamine4145 Kreia is great teacher. She makes you learn, adapt and look further than you are looking now. Is person who can just make someone obey against their will using their I Win-Card really the best negotiator? When they lose their card they are utterly useless in their purpose. Like someone who has never learned to walk as they have always been carried. That is what Kreia warns against - relying on something which is inherently not your own.
@@vksasdgaming9472 Problem with that is the force IS inherently your own. Its an inherent part of a force user. Relying on it is no different than me relying on my tongue to speak or my feet to walk. Can the force be taken away? yes, under very precarious and extreme circumstances... But so can my tongue and feet, and in fact that is more likely to happen.
You rely on the natural abilities you have. Of course you do. Its impossible not to, no matter what you do you're relying on *some* ability you have. It would be ridiculous to decide I need to get through life without hands, because I've become reliant on having hands, so why isnt it ridiculous to decide to get through life without the force when its available to you?
@@lenkagamine4145 Kreia sees what you suggest as easy way out. Being born wealthy and utterly ignorant of harsh reality on much more massive scale than just physical wealth and even more corrupting and insidious influence. Something that makes you utterly dependent of just one attribute someone may have which with overuse atrophies user's other abilities to uselessness. Why have physical strength if you have Force? Why know how different cultures and species' think when you have Force? Why see with electromagnetic radiation when you have Force? Without Force Jedi and Sith are weak and useless and she has seen it well enough.
@@vksasdgaming9472 She can see it however she wants, its ridiculous. Without arms I'm weak and useless. Without a brain anybody is useless. Obviously if you remove everything that makes someone good at something they wont be good at it. So what? its basically a tautology.
Also its not even really correct. Most jedi and sith do train their skills. The force is part of what makes them skilled but not the only thing. Lightsaber training is augmented by the force sure, but they are still actually training and practicing different techniques. Most are relatively fit. Most also use their eyes and ears. etc. etc.
I am very impressed with this, I may be Old but I am very Knowledgeable. My abilities are not be Tested..
13:31 i was totally like that the first time i played kotr2 back in high school.
You and me both buddy.
I always thought Kreia was the same as Master Arren Kae, Brianna's mother.
Just the best Star Wars villain in the entire franchise!
Are there any documents of her teachings?
Very good explanation, thank you
You're welcome!
I know I’m really late bro. But... if you reading this. THANK YOU for this video you have brought lore and knowledge too me and many others. 🥷🏿
Better late than never Paulo! Thank you :)
@@100StarWars 😭you’re welcome
Until today, the wise words of Kreya's still echos in my life. She may have her own agenda, but she did give some important phylosophy to everyplayer to apply in their lives.
When you doubt the value of female sith, think immediately of Darth Traya
As everyone should :D
Traya/Kreia > other female Sith. Don't change my mind, No Jedi.
Music at the end Please! I've heard the original which is a soundtrack in the game and this piano cover sounds just as beautiful!
Hello! The theme is the 'Rebuilt Jedi Enclave Theme' from Knight of The Old Republic 2! The version I use at the end of the video is a piano cover created by one Lucas King! You can find it here - th-cam.com/video/wGkD8WLI_gs/w-d-xo.html
Traya x Thrawn team up ? Zomg republic would be SCREWED.
Very nice video! Earned a sub!
I'm glad to have you on board :)
Awesome character sketch, brother.
Wow. The double, triple, quadruple cross. She was truly the lord of betrayal. That was cool.
:))
Great video friend, this game is perfect.!!!!( Disney if wants money), we need a game of this, with the graphics of battlefront 2. Like a remastered.
I couldn't agree more buddy! :D
they need obsidian to make good rpg games, bioware alone will flop the franchise. Obsidian is the heart and soul of a good story in an RPG.
I believe that Kreia was what Luke should have been like in TLJ, but they were too keen to "let the past die", so I guess they didn't look at the right place for inspiration.
I believe it was there intent.
I find Kylo's goal in TLJA to be similar to that of Kreia's, as he was both Jedi and Sith and felt betrayed by both and wanted to destroy both of them. It's fascinating that in twisted way Kylo was rigth as destroying both factions would result in peace and balance. Unfortunately, his plan was useless as TROS just undid all his motives.
I always thought her motive was too destroy the force. That she wanted to free the Galaxy from the force controlling everyone's destiny and causing pointless conflict.
I have another video detailing her motives in depth if you're interested!
Thing is with or without the Force, there will always be conflict look at the Crime organisation corrupt governments. There will always be war and conflict. I mean look at the mandalorians look at the trade federation. So I don't buy it that "The force needs to be destroyed to free everything from conflict" Bullcrap
Ironic she became Lord of Betrayal after being betrayed by each orders that are effectively the embodiment of the 2 sides of the force. Its one of those times where you 100% sympathize with the path someone chooses despite it leading to an extreme conclusion with a bloody road map to follow.
I do sympathise indeed.
This is a badass female Star Wars character, without being a Skywalker in mind, not like some other characters I don't want to name...
darth traya is by far my favorite charakter ever created, shes akmost as philosophical like zarathustra by nietszche
Sorry for a long comment but I'm just finding this video 3 years later... I've recently gotten back into the Kotor series and just beat 2 back to back - female LS (Meetra) and a male DS who kept the masters alive (which I feel was the more original "canon" way in the original devs minds but that's my observation). Through both play throughs, I came to both love and hate Kreia. So well written. So deep. Yet so hypocritical and arrogant herself even as one who despises arrogance and hypocrisy. I genuinely felt used and manipulated by the end and hated her for it even as she actually cared for the exile. Masterfully done.
Side note: while I think I still like 1 better as an all around game, the pace of 2 from Dxun-Korriban-Onderon through to the end is exhilarating. The "reveal" isn't as massive as 1, but the writing comes to head after the second trial and you feel like everything you went through is paying off. I am on console so no RCM, but it's still an amazing story with some great moments. Rolling through the Trayas Academy as a Sith Lord wrecking everyone was so satisfying. Also, turning the Handmaiden and Mira (stayed grey through Nar Shaddaa) into Dark Jedi was so awesome. I just can't say enough about how great 2 is as an experience and wish they would have had an extra year to polish it.
wasn't kriea related to the handmaiden in some way.
It's a theory :) Although it's not a confirmed fact.
It's widely rumored that the Handmaiden is Kreia's daughter. Like 100% said, though, it's never been confirmed.
Theories... Theories, everywhere!
Kreia was Jedi master Kae: the master of Revan and the mother of the Handmaiden
Maybe, maybe not :D
Not likely
When I first played kotor 2 I tried so hard to make kreia my master and I her apprentice, only to find out that isn't actually possible
best Sith Lord in Star Wars!
Certainly one of!
actually the first purge was a pure hell for jedi than the second one was. because at that sith was directly active and jedi turned to dark side due to loss of faith in jedi.
and palpatine is the most ridiculous blood thirsty tyrant who actually had no real cause for power. the sith was actually built on betrayal, exile, suffering and hate. but palpatine's motive doesn't have any of this........
those who are with me, press like. and those disagree with me, you are requested to correct me.
Ah yes, granny nechie as I like to call her.
Kreia is one of the most interesting characters in all of Star Wars. The mad woman tried to kill the force and that is worth the price of admission alone, never mind how much she makes you think.
R.I.P. Kreias hand
I've played KOTOR 2 multiple times
Hello 100% Star Wars, I was thinking about something. This video you made here is incredible! Beautifully explained and so extremely well thought through. And to a point we do have some similar ideas for videos, and therefore I was wondering if we should try to do a collab video?
Thank you buddy, that really means a lot!
At this present time, I want to focus primarily on getting my channel filled with more content. Collaborations are definitely something I'm interested in doing for the future, just not quite yet.
If only Snoke was written this well, JJ and Rian should have drew inspiration from Kreia for Snoke in the sequels.
What books share this knowledge, I'd like to read about the sith triumvirate
No books sadly, only KOTOR 2
One thing you got wrong. Kreia did not drain the Jedi Masters. She severed the force from them only, and they died because they could not live without the force. They wre too dependent on the force. That is why they died.
She used a variant of Force Drain, similar to the skill Nihilus used.
Honestly, she could have solved a majority of the galaxy's problems by ridding it of the force, almost every major conflict on the galaxy was cause by jedi and sith.
I was wondering if there were force users that used the force to wield multiple lightsabers telekinetically. Now I actually want to see this in action.
Same :D
She had the potential of being a true neutral character and the embodiment of "balance". Probably my favorite Star Wars character from a philosophical perspective.
She wasnt "neutral" per se. She shifted toward the dark side because its power serve her purpose and was fully aware of her own hypocrisy. For her the "balance" isnt the goal, the galaxy's freedom from force users is.
@@mdd4296 Hence I refer to her as having "the potential"... if only the character had more opportunity for growth. She certainly has, in my opinion, the best background story of any of the Star Wars characters.
People be forgetting Jolee, qui gon, and New Jedi order luke
She is my favorite Kotor2 character
All these years later and I'm still a little pissed over KOTOR 2. So much potential, cut short to meet a deadline.
I'll never be able to get over it