@@gohanblack5545 Toriyama stated it in his interviews as well and there’s a much different culture for spoilers in Japan, so I don’t think that’s the case. There’s also aspects of the anime that only get VAGUELY referenced too (ex. we never see SSBE or SSBKK in the Broly movie, or the fact that when going through previous villains in that movie Zamasu never appears)
If you think this is bad, think of the fact that base gohan is stronger than super saiyan baby goten, than him and goten when possessed by baby are both weaker than vegeta by a good bit, than base goku rekts both of them when before he and trunks in super saiyan had trouble with baby a few like months before, than see this, the saiyans who were and should be weaker than base goku, boost his super saiyan 4 far stronger than when he fought golden ozaru baby, that means their powers are enough to boost goku who should be far stronger than all of them beyond his previous super saiyan 4 literally minutes after, than this happens again against sin shenron, x10 kamehameha no damage, people lend him energy and he than rekts sun shenron with simple punches
I think the main issue is just the fact that it mostly focuses on pure strength and linear scaling. They have played around with it before, but 90% of the fights in the entire series come down to who has the bigger number. Other Shonen series use other factors to judge “power” where a character might not be physically stronger but they have some weird quirk (mha pun not intended) that makes them very hard to deal with. Outside of like Hit and a handful of other characters, the only variable Dragon Ball tweaks is power level. This has led to insane power levels. By the end of Namek most of the main fighters are well above the planet buster power level of 10K that is stated in the manga. I can’t imagine what Gohan, Vegeta, Goku, or Piccolo could do at their current levels in the manga. This isn’t even a dig at the series I still love it, but power levels are and always have been pretty silly.
Agreed! Too much focus on raw strength (with a lack of explanation on that as well) is definitely a detriment in some aspects. I do like how the Moro arc went against that though, both showing how techniques and abilities can play a HUGE role, but also with the idea that too much raw power and no control is detrimental. Would love to see more of that
This is all make-believe fiction anything can happen at any given time so doesn't really matter what power levels are what are what means what it's all fake and make-believe anyway so it really has no meaning but the most pathetic thing about all this is that they're not even original with their series anymore they threw the baphomet in there like every other pathetic Masonic person in this world is truly just pathetic joke.
@@SaladSaiyan that is a really good point. Moro is a very good template for how future Dragon Ball arcs could do threats that are not just bigger numbers. In a lot of ways it kind of felt like an early Naruto fight where they had to out think and out fight.
I liked when Guldo someone vastly weaker than Krilin and Gohan at a power level of at best 10.000 could use his powers to trick and almost win against Gohan and Krilin and ginyu force could become more gimmick figthers but Sadly Goku beefy 90K one shotted everything
Future Trunks closing the gap with fused Zamasu was the most egregious example imo but the entire tournament of power just throws out all of the rules and let's people scale up for no reason other than cool fight
This. The very first showing of a Goku and Vegeta fusion in the show and somehow Trunks with his Walmart super saiyan blue matches and or surpasses that!
The dude went from way weaker then goku black in base to being able to one shot his fusion, the same guy vegito blue couldn’t defeat, in the span of like 2 days, like wtf is this
It always blows my mind how they can expect earth-level heroes like Roshi and Krillen to keep up with something like the tournament of power, and yet they do! Realistically, the power differentials have gotten so huge that Jiren should be able to blink and literally atomize someone like Krillen from the pressure.
A fusion of Goku and Vegeta goes into both their most powerful forms, at that moment, SSB. His base alone being above them at their peaks. He has a relatively equal fight with Fused Zamasu while slightly having an upper hand. He defuses and Kaioken Blue Goku can still hang with Fused Zamasu and not instantly get vaporized. Either Goku somehow completely multiplied his power by magnitudes or Zamasu got way weaker. Correct answer being: The power scaling is shit
I remember thinking this even back in the Buu arc. They are at the very end. Vegeta is trying to buy time for Goku to do the spirit bomb. Vegeta is so tired he can't even transform anymore and is fighting at base. BASE! If even a normal SS boosts power by 50x and it was too weak then why isn't Vegeta vaporized when trying to fight kid Buu in base form? Same reason a big bad punches Superman across the city and then turns and taps Batman so the guy flies a couple of meters back to fall on the ground slightly woozy.
in the Saiyan and Freeza saga, people liked Power Levels, Toriyama hated that so banished the whole system of power levels, so people started power scaling in Android and Buu sagas, now it appears Toriyama wants to destroy power scaling too, in which case... (Farmer with Shotgun vs Super Saiyan 4 grand Priest Vegito) should be a close match XD
I recently attempted to calculate how many joules 1 power level should be equal to. The result was different depending on derivation (something that should not happen with a unit of energy) and ended up being in the 10^20 range, suggesting that the average human could deorbit the earth. Needless to say I wasted my time.
@@makssachs8914 If master roshi with 50 power level can destroy a moon then farmer with shotgun with power level of 5 should be able to destroy a continent😂😂
Not to mention that Beerus and Whis feels like an ever moving goalpost for Goku and Vegeta to the point that I don't even know what the point of DBS is anymore. Goku and Vegeta really do all this training and we're still limited to U7's inhabitants while we still wonder how strong the Grand priest is as well as many other beings across the multiverse that have yet to be revealed to us.
Glad you brought this up: The characters get stronger way too damn quickly, it's not even just the absurdity of Freiza's 4 month training, it's EVERYONE.
My boy Tien has been consistently training, but as soon as it's time to fight Krillin and Roshi get plot buffs. Hell Yamcha beat Champa in baseball, he could probably hang with the best of them.
3:15 Cabba being strong enough to solo the buu arc is weird, but what's even weirder is that some people think that Teen Gohan (Ssj2) from the Cell Saga is just as strong/stronger than him.
I agree. The main thing in my opinion, is in the original it was about style, technique, and finding a way to work around the bigger power level. Now it’s, I have bigger number, no I have bigger number, I’m stronger than you! And of course, all it takes is someone finding a new transformation (usually Goku), and then the whole show changes. I liked super saiyan, super saiyan two, but after god forms, it became super ridiculous. I love the video btw!
Fr, what proves this further is unexpectedly Copy Vegeta. He one shot SSJ3 Gotenks and gotenks didn’t land a hit, yet a stronger vegeta could have even a slight struggle against a ssj cabba? Power levels make no sense now 🤦♂️
@@44TKO I also forgot to mention, even though it’s the manga, vegeta said cabba and his bases are about EQUAL to each other. Did cabba get some god training off screen that we didn’t see? Was there a secret hyperbolic time chamber they were training in at universe 6? Makes absolutely no sense 🤦♂️
@@kaijikhristicus8123even in the anime he said that 😂 either Universe 7 Saiyans were that weak that if they never got God training they would’ve been eliminated first in the T.o.P or every god took their fighters In the time chamber beforehand
Honestly it's gotten to the point where I just blockout the power scaling when watching or reading super simply because it just makes everything feel stupid which is sad because it shouldn't be that way but there's nothing we can do
True bro but oh my god that statement saying base goku from the end of the T.O.P could be stronger than vegito blue from the future trunks arc really got me thinking that this has become a HUGE issue in dragon ball
For Super Hero, I just say Gamma 1 and 2 are around (if not a little stronger) than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. I just can’t believe that both Gamma’s would be on par with or stronger Ultra Instinct Goku from the Moro Arc.
I think what Piccolo meant when he said that the Gamma’s were on par with Goku & Vegeta is that they were on par in SSB. As Toriyama has said that Orange Piccolo is on par with Ultra Ego and UI and Orange Piccolo punched Gamma 2 unconscious or whatever that expression was (quote from Toriyama: “I’m personally glad that he finally has obtained a fighting strength that rivals that of Goku and the others”) Edit: He pointed it out nvm
I think that’s exactly what it is. When Gohan and Piccolo are comparing the Gammas and Cell Max to Goku and Vegeta, I believe they’re referring to their (full power) Moro arc counterparts. Which is the last time all four of them were around each other. So I believe that Piccolo surpassed full power Goku and Vegeta in the Moro arc and is now on par with them Post-Granola/currently, which would make Gohan stronger than all three of them. While I’m pretty sure people aren’t gonna like that, I feel like Toei and Toriyama are REALLY trying to hammer this in.
Can we admit that beerus holding back in battle of gods by the billions and or millions is now not so crazy people were clowning mfers back in 2019 when people were saying that on facebook & twitter lol
The moment we went from 'Frieza and his family were so powerful that they ruled a large swathe of the galaxy' to 'earth creates robots (which, lets remember, due to their nature can be mass produced instead of just making 5) that completely surpass Frieza' it just goes downhill in terms of scaling.
I actually remember totally not mark talking about the same topic a few years ago And how Toryama used to show understandable power scaling even without scouters by leaving story clues that people can break down Like how Vegeta gives orders to Nappa showing that if Nappa can defeat every Z fighter Vegeta having to be stronger than that And the way characters fight other characters in the saiyan saga demonstrating their power Yamcha dying Piccolo staying alive being around even Tien skipping saibamen entirely and fighting Nappa
My biggest issue started with Beerus and Whis. Specifically, Whis's comment on how much power Beerus used against SSG Goku. The iterations and translations vary from 5%-10%-20% hell, even 70% of Beerus was used in the movie. And the issues with this are that if any of these are true, then Beerus is pointless now. Hell he was pointless by the universe 6 tourny. Even if we say he used 5% power against God Goku, then Blue Kaioken x20 Goku should already be able to steamroller Beerus even if we don't count the Zenkai boosts.
Nice timing just got home so get to watch this plus get to continue my ritual that's been going on for who knows how many years now where I eat diner while watching a salad what if everyday
Honestly U6 saiyan power would have made more sense if their evolution was stated to let them embody the totality of the great ape and full super saiyan power in their base.
@@BlackedHawked This is a fictional story. They can make power ups or characters as op as they want. SSJ4 can be introduced now and be above MUI and UE because why not
@@BlackedHawked I get you bro. Personally I would've just had the u6 saiyans have better relations with their destroyer god and angel and of course having them aged up quite a bit. Would've been more interesting to see that Goku and Vegeta have only touched upon god ki and its powers whereas these saiyans have it mastered. Then u7 would lose the exhibition. What this simple change does is: -Make the other universes appear as bigger threats that are more developed -(If Zeno still wants to wipe out lesser universes) It makes the better universes seem far above anything Goku and Vegeta know seeing as even u6 who are above them, don't fall under the level needed to be one of the better universes. -Better Character development behind the scenes for Champa and Vados -These saiyans could have new techniques that Goku and Vegeta are too inexperienced to match (giving limits to their high battle IQ) -More incentives to have everyone not named Goku and Vegeta get stronger. You're telling me there are universes with characters far above Goku and Vegeta and yet characters on Earth don't care? Makes no sense. Just imagine U6 got the rights to Earth... that shit would be crazy
The saiyans getting stronger exponentially I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is that Gohan Piccolo Frieza and Broly closing the gap without God Ki.
Power scaling I never see people address is Vegeta. Everyone always says gohan gets cheap upgrades yet Vegeta went from SSJ2 to SSB in such a short time.
The manga has much better power scaling as goku and vegeta don't have such insane growth and have better reasons for it, along with goku black's growth being more logical and rooted in zenkai's with there being a clear progression from super saiyan-super saiyan rose, and technique plays a bigger factor in it, such as true UI and spirit control. The main problem with dragon ball is that it doesn't have something apart of its power system that's different from raw strength. Naruto has its eye abilities and jutsu which, while broken, are set apart from raw strength like taijutsu and one piece has kenbushoku and haoshoku haki which provide different abilities for fights aside from the power based busoshoku haki.
5:00 To elaborate a bit more on why some people think base Goku at the end of TOP is stronger than Vegito blue during Goku black arc. Basically the Goku at the start of TOP is a little (or a a lot) stronger than his Goku black arc counterpart which is some what comparable to base Vegito give or take. And he got whooped by Jiren no difficulty in blue kaiokenx20. But he got stronger after ui and is now fighting Ssj2 Kefla who is stronger than the spirit bomb multiple times while fatigued in ui. Than grow so much stronger when he used blue kaiokenx20 against Jiren with Vegeta Jiren needs to what try (he even tanked Jiren’s attack in base at some point which will probably tear the Goku blue in Goku black arc apart). He then went ui one last time against Jiren who is now at ~90% power and evolved into mui. Proceeds to destroy the same dude who destroyed him just ~30 minutes ago. At the end when Goku is fighting Jiren alongside Frieza and 17 he is fighting Jiren base to base while being arguably more fatigued than Jiren because he just recovered from the drawback of using mui not even 30 seconds ago. The same Jiren who surpassed himself and is stronger than ever is unable to bliz base Goku. Where does Vegito blue stands in all of this? Possibly not even at blue evolved Vegeta since Ssj2 Kefla is stronger than the spirit bomb who is below suppressed Jiren that is already stronger than infinite Zamasu. The same one that Vegito blue can’t defeat. At the end what is the point of all this powerscalling? Idk, super is kinda stupid.
The end music and great ducussion got me thinking alot. It's not really big of an issue for me but I would like more emphasis on techniques then transformations bc they gonna run out of colors to use eventually
I do agree plus on top of that power scaring in the dragon ball universe is really complicated I understand there is certain degree they grow either slow or fast but it's really game out of control because if their power level pulls to be a certain point why they keep growing even further beyond I feel like they're doing like a timescape and not focusing on the main thing because who posted to be having the power scale or try to keep certain things balances
Power Scaling is kind of dumb for this reason. The point of debating things like this is to have fun. It doesn't matter who's stronger it's just fun to talk about. I think power scalers have ruined this over the years and made the community worse because of it. "Goku solos" is one of the worst things to happen to the anime community besides all the racism, misogyny, etc.
I remember when Goku powering up to SS3 caused the entire Earth to shake, but SSGSS doesn't cause any issues even though it is something like, 10000x more powerful than SS3 Goku was back in the Buu saga. Even base Goku and Vegeta should literally shake the planet from a little light training or sparring at this point, and since every fighter except maybe Yamcha, Goten, and Trunks are all at power levels that put them in the top 20 or so known beings in Universe 7, they should also be causing issues when training.
@@ToxikDeth Ah, yes, like Broly. The perfect example of a calm, collected, and controlled fighter who is able to supress himself enough not to destroy the Earth despite hitting it with a barrage of blasts.
@@Returntonature145 Nobody who can beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta Blue and survive more than one attack from Gogeta Blue is below planet level, at the absolute minimum. Even if you mean Z Broly, that guy literally destroyed a planet on-screen.
The reason they mention Jiren as the pinnacle of power in Super Hero, is because the script for the movie was made before the Moro arc, so I don't know about Toriyama's statements, but Piccolo saying that the Gammas are Goku level definitely doesn't mean UI Goku. As for the Cabba thing, I always considered that base Goku's power was retconned after the resurrection F saga, there is no way kaioshin Zamasu is above battle of gods SSG Goku to give another example. That's why in the manga Goku never absorbs the god power. Also this is more controversial, but I don't think that BoG God Goku > Z Vegito. Salad if you read this, please reply or heart my comment, I would really appreciate it.
@Big McChungus Imo there is no way Piccolo is on par with UI, they may be on the same "tier" but not on par and I'm gonna explain why. Toriyama pretty much said that Broly > Brainless Cell Max, and as we saw Piccolo lost to that Cell Max which was also weakened by Gamma 2.
@@dimitri4888 Orange Piccolo would still be relative to UI, Broly just beats UI. Piccolo even stated he didn't believe Goku or Vegeta could've beat cell max, which was a line specifically put in there by the writers to give us an idea on just where these characters stood power wise. Both Goku and Piccolo couldn't beat cell max, they're in the same ballpark, and given Toriyama supports this, it holds up.
@Big McChungus How does Broly beat UI Goku? In the Granolah saga Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were confirmed superior than Broly, and it was never confirmed that Broly trained since then.
@@dimitri4888 I can kinda see how broly beats UI. Remember broly was keeping up with ssb Goku in Wrathful form(great ape in base). It took almost a maxed out fusion to beat broly after super Saiyan.
Lets be real here The powerscaling has been completely lost ever since the beginning of Saiyan saga. We went from 100s to 100s of millions because of a galactic tyrant. Then somehow Gero comes up with Androids way stronger than that. A few years later everyone has to be multi-turbo-universal+++++ to even breathe the same air as our main cast Im not even gonna say anything about Frieza and his comeback. You already know
It just feels like the gap in power is too big now. With vegeta it did feel like goku was stronger, but the fact that goku lost to vegeta and they still beat him made the gap seem not as big. With freezer the gap felt pretty big after goku turned SS, but the fact that trunks warned them all and they trained for 3 years made it so the gap could shrink again. And after gohan turned SS2, the gap was huge again but then gohan got weaker over time so they all were more evenly matched again. And after the buu saga it didnt feel like the gap was there since they defeated buu with the spirit bomb and goku being SS1, he didnt go SS3 and just beat him with power. It only became a problem with god ki since noone besides goku and vegeta had access to it, so the tournament of power felt less like all 10 fighters were evenly matched. Vegeta and Goku have special training with the gods now so any mortal training seems pointless in comparison.
Actually, concerning the power level of Universe 6 Saga Cabba, we can say that he would more likely be equal to Base Vegeta WITHOUT GOD Ki. Using God Kid against opponents like Frost or Cabba, would have been overkill. Battle of Gods Base Goku would have been at around 40 million, because Beerus stated that there was no way Goku could have beaten Frieza in Base. Vegeta's power during Battle of Gods would have been far lower as a result. Then we do not know what type of training Vegeta and Goku undertook on Whis' planet, and how much it helped them improve their base stats, seeing that they mostly trained for the control of God Ki, and for SSJ Blue. We know that Goku trained in the time chamber mainly to put Kaioken on top of SSJ Blue, and not necessarily to improve his base. Vegeta probably focused a lot more on conserving energy while in SSJ Blue. So, if Vegeta's base form without God Ki would have been below 70 million, that would still not be too OP for somebody like Cabba, who was fighting all the time against countless foes.
This is a pretty good video, only two things is would be that the Movie continuity is meant to occur in both Manga and Anime. That's why it's so vague, so it can fit within both continuities. Additionally, sometimes the editing (especially with that warbling effect you see form 2:30 to 4:30) is a bit distracting
I usually blame Buu and Shin for why Universe 7 is simply just miles behind in power and overall quality of life compared to every single universe by a significant margin. Buu killed all the competent kais 10 million years before the Buu saga I think, so I’m guessing the Saiyans were created some time after that by Shin who is so embarrassingly weak that even an apprentice from the 10th universe isn’t even in the same league as him. He clearly has no idea what he’s doing, and the Elder Kai has clearly never been a reliable source of information(mortal time limit). Beerus is no help either. So the credit for the Universe 7 Saiyan for growing so powerful despite the fact they are literally insects at birth is well deserved. They had to earn all they have. Base Cabba soloing Buu saga with no difficulty is the result of the Gods of the Universe being straight up inferior to every other universe in terms of productivity.
@@ashuraomega7113 except they art every character in the top is stronger than dabura the strongest non god or artificial being and he’s from demon realm so really it’s king cold
@@SaladSaiyan True, but also something i've been meaning to do myself. Redo all the sagas from z but with sensible powerscaling too while keeping the story and power order of characters mostly the same. Sounds kinda fun but i haven't got the time atm.
I mean, there has to be some sort of explanation, for example, cabba probably has been training the entirety throughout z, even though he wasnt a thing then, kindo like those Minecraft TH-camrs after doing off camera mining
Love the discussion video. It definitely seems to me like the whole power scaling started to really go out the window once power levels were done away with. But at the same time imagine if they had tried to keep power levels throughout the entire series? It would be like playing Diablo 3, just throwing up a bunch of progressively absurd numbers that people just have a hard time grasping. Plus as you've mentioned strength seems to be tied to being able to win a fight so much that if concrete numbers were kept on power levels, this might just further complicate things as far as scaling and outcomes go. Doesn't seem like something we as fans can do much about but just kind of discuss. Keep up the great work Salad.
I find funny how different are what the spanish and english communities at powerscaling. Spanish:humans can't pass 200.000 of power level, goku and vegeta can activate at will god ki making their base go from slightly stronger that their buu saga to as strong that ssg, and ultimate gohan is the same in super and z. English: base cabba can solo dbz, ultimate gohan is as strong as ssb and base goku is stronger that blue vegetto.
Universe 6 saiyans should be around raditz and nappa, gohan should’ve be that strong, piccolo should’ve only reached super saiyan 3 level, cell max should be around super buu level or higher since it was built to be as strong as goku but the scientists shouldn’t be able to make robots with god ki or capable of fighting gods, and finally broly shouldn’t have been able to keep up with goku or vegeta
Facts, then apparently turning on emotions while using ui sign allows you to solo a full power gas with mid difficulty💀 granolah arc is the worst arc in db history
I’m probably in the minority that find frieza’s power up ridiculously. You mean to tell me this fool couldn’t beat a non- mastered super Saiyan in 4 short months can basically one shot the entire dbz saga villains, the first 3 super Saiyan forms, God, and pretty much overwhelm blue for a while? I know the dudes got potential but come on 😂
If you want more powerscaling content in super with actual power levels and numbers, watch sayian scholar, he scales the full super manga to power levels from Z
It definitely doesn't, like Goku using SS1 them jump STRAIGHT into SSB, skipping all the other forms. Not to mention so many OP characters. Dragonball Z seems more refined until the Buu Saga.
I feel like the solution should've just been, leave the God forms as an absolute, last resort. It coulda help with keeping Super Saiyan and it's forms relevant while also keeping the immense power of the God forms present. So say, Frieza coming back. SSJ3 level power. Sure he's still a planet buster, but it's much more in line of a technique than a direct scale of power. Then U6 vs U7 Tournament. Hit still forces Goku to use SSB Kaioken but it's to a much insanely quicker fight and the power actually leaves Goku very much drained afterwards. Black rolls out. God and SSB are relevant completely, along with SSJ because Black is tapping into Saiyan powers while also being a God, and the escalation of his powers correlate with the forms needing to be used against him. So on, so forth. TL;DR - God forms should be last resort, not first thing they do.
At this point I believe they should make the anime and manga two different timeline cause a lot of stuff aren't add up when you compare the anime and manga together
I do think superhero for example should have definitely showed glimpses of Moro and stuff that'd be pretty cool a little hint for what to see but one of the worst parts about it for me is just how stupid Goku is I just had to get that out there in everything honestly though really interesting how the manga has its own set of events and the manga is honestly just a fun read for super btw I honestly really hate the fact that they made all the other arcs in a way useless like especially super Saiyan it was just so bs and it really should have still meant something and the way they get so strong so quickly should have been slowed down
Being fair those two are the easiest to scale from the Z figthers, taking Gohan figth with Kefla and the fact Kefla strength wasnt growing insanely and that Gohan was said to grown soo much stronger makes me believe they both are Buutenks level or early battle of gods because Kefla was restrained by pride troopers and Frieza easily and Piccolo sadly got stuck on Cell saga level in my opinion
Cabba is from u6 the u6 saiyans could of existed millenias longer then u7 saiyans who were destroyed because they were getting too powerful. On top of that, cabba, and caulifla are the strongest known saiyans on their planet. They could simply just be rare high potential saiyans like broly
In manga u6 sayians are around 3,000,000 units (base of information in buu saga Goku dosent get stronger in base form (even in dbs)) so imo in manga they are legit😊
Yo, I’m pretty sure the whole gammas power scaling thing is alright, I mean I don’t think the red ribbon army would be able to get info from ultra instinct, but they would with super saiyan blue through resurrection F, and so, they prolly on the same level as blue evolution… so I’m pretty sure that solves that. I did agree with the rest of the video though, getting rid of power scaling makes it tough to make sense of the battles and evolutions
This is one of the reasons why I love Dragon Ball Multiverse. The power scaling is extremely consistent and characters aren't this absurdly strong for no reason
I mean I agree with everything you said except for the ladder part if anything there are way too many characters in multiverse that are extremely overpowered for no reason especially bra
@@ashuraomega7113 the same could be said about Dragon Ball Super. Every character they introduced now has to be at least as strong as a Super Saiyan God or else they're just fodder to Goku and Vegeta. I mean just look at Superhero, where Gohan and Piccolo get extremely over-the-top power boosts just to make them relevant to Goku and Vegeta's ultra forms. At least with multiverse the characters don't have an infinite power scale
I disagree with base Cabba being God level. Goku's godly base in resurrection F seemed to be more of a power up then literally just being his base form. If Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with the powers of a Super Saiyan God and Goku and Vegeta still use normal Super Saiyan, it tells me that Goku and Vegeta aren't always using the powers of a God. If you really think about it, every fight after battle of gods where Goku had in Super Saiyan, he never fought God level characters. He only used Base/Saiyan Beyond God against Monaka Costume Beerus, and Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta. Everything else is a mess though especially ssj2 Trunks in the black saga. Excluding MUI and Ultra Ego, I doubt Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Vegito. Vegito's base alone according to Vados, a base Potara fusion is both characters at their strongest multiplied by 10s of times meaning Base Vegito in the black saga was at least around 40 times stronger than SSB Goku if we say Goku and Vegeta were equal and that's ignoring Kaioken.
See, as a writer, the way I think about it, "Powerscaling doesn't matter." Basically, all things are secondary to making things interesting and furthering the themes. It's why I've never much cared for powerscaling in general. As an example, I'll use Future Trunks. Does it make sense that Future Trunks can compete with Goku Black just from getting angry? No, not at all. But I don't care, because it results in Trunks being able to take part in the defense of his home. It would feel sorta flaccid if Trunks gained a power boost, only to then be jobbed out entirely. I think you're right in saying that the problem comes from how battles are handled in Dragon Ball. In another series, Trunks could have gained some sort of unique ability that allowed him to participate in the fight while Goku and Vegeta took the brunt of the damage. That also introduces its own issues story-wise, but it would make more sense powerscaling wise. Still, I think in general, Dragon Ball Super has less clean writing, which makes the stupid powerscaling much more prevalent. Z also had some dumb powerscaling, specifically in the Cell Arc, but it was disguised by the writing being much tighter. Basically, TL;DR: Power levels are bullshit
someone who didnt watch dragon ball till the tournament of power i am confused did goku give birth to gohan before all those events see i would go start dragon ball from the beginning but i wont
I think we all should just enjoy the anime and get into the Manga if we want a more clear cut, a director's cut if you say. Things like Goku fighting Jiren in base and mastering UI right away just don't happen in the Manga. And the reason is obvious: almost every chapter of the Manga is personally revised by Akira before releasing, and the compilations even have corrections, like volume 9 where Toyotaro explain he rushed those chapters and made corrections. In the other hand the anime is released straight away and is basically Toei's version of the original script made by Akira, which is probably very vague un power scaling and we know from the very first movies of original DB that Toei doesn't care if doesn't make sense to some people, as long as is flashy is good to stay. So, if you want to have a clear version of the powers, visit the Manga, because the anime is a mess in this regard in almost every saga. And what about the movies? Well those are as relevant for power scaling as the filler in the anime is. Just enjoy the movies for the punching and character development, and wait for Toyotaro and Toei's revised versions in the Manga and anime respectively, those will be more helpful to do power scaling.
i think in manga goku and vegeta didnt absorb god ki or atleast they didnt get stronger than ssg goku in their base and they have god ki only in ssg and ssb and so on but i may be wrong
I think to see where super’s (and Dagon ball’s powerscaling in general) falls short is to look at one piece. Luffy from wano is capable being beaten by Akainu from marineford, not because luffy didn’t get stronger but because Akainu has abilities that can counter luffy’s power and be able to beat him.
What if Goku didn't go into the RoST alone as a kid? (I have a feeling he only went in as a kid in the anime?)((I don't care if that's the case I still want answers or a what-if lol))
Well for one, the last 2 movies are directly tied into the anime, and the reason they don't talk about any arc after the top is because the script for superhero was written before/during the grahnola arc, so they are trying to avoid spoilers for anime only people, every other point is valid tho
I feel like power scaling is very important to the story of most shows so that you can understand that ssj cabba could destroy ssj god Goku in battle of gods
The anime has been terrible since the start at handling power levels and power scaling When Goku unlocked God form, he could go toe to toe with a serious Beerus (in the movie the God said he used 70% of his power to defeat Goku and, even though they later deleted that line in the anime adptation of those events, it is still implied that Goku forced him to go serious even in the "anime universe" otherwise he would have just destroyed earth had he not got any satisfaction from the duel with the Sayan) However, when one arc later he unlocks Kaioken Blue x10 (and later x20), this is still not enough to surpass Beerus and all of a sudden Blue, a form even stronger than the one which forced a GoD to turn at least a bit serious , becomes weaker than Beerus at his 4% or 5%...something even below the "I'm toying with you" level But things got even worse and more inconsistent with Blue Vegeta being as successful as Kaioken Blue ×20 Goku in pushing back Zamasu's attacks and Goku shocking the Gods of destruction so much when he turns Blue that one of them even claims that "his power rivals that of the Gods" (I know that rivals=/=equals, but how come is 4% of their power enough to rival them????) Then you have the Tournament which not only is one of the worst battle ever written (the fighters almost never run out of stamina despite never holding back, Goku recovers from 1 near death experience and 2 or even more all out duels in a matter of seconds and almost everyone receives random and huge power ups for no reason at all), but also creates another inconsistency because Goku, despite being now stronger than Jiren (a guy stonger than the Gods), is still weaker than Beerus even after unlocking Ultra Instinct The manga did a good job at dealing with these issues (no Kaioken, people losing battles due to stamina in each arc, no stupid and/or undeserved power ups like that given to Trunks, etc) but even there has been some inconsistencies lately (mostly Goku non being stronger than Beerus despite being on Jiren's tier)
@@JoseC687 oh yea like that time base goku was fighting super 17 a bit (in base) and everyone else in thier strangest forms like majuub was fooder agianst him
People REALLY should stop pretending this was not the case with DBZ, especially the so beloved Namek Saga. The reality is that it was always Frieza who broke the power scaling to an INSANE level back then and does it today too. Or do people forget Goku went from 90,000 to 3,000,000 just by a single zenkai boost because the plot demanded? LOL
I think one thing that makes dragon ball kinda boring is that each form is a flat out upgrade to a previous form. They are always stronger, faster and more durable while also giving new abilities. If the forms weren’t entirely linear but rather each form had a drawback and an advantage then it would still feel like skill. Example when we had super saiyan grade 3 we saw it was a bulkier form that increased strength dramatically at the cost of speed, if there was a super saiyan form that did the inverse then we could see a character shift between them just like we saw with god and blue, where god was used for travel and defense due to being more efficient and blue was used for offense for power. The fact that there is basically no benefit to using lower forms aside from efficiency makes it boring.
I have my own fictional universe where power scaling is cracked eg. Freiza has a diamond form and characters can combine two or more different sayian transformations
90% of the powerscaling problems wouldn’t exist in Super if they removed the idea of Super Saiyan God being absorbed into base. It’s one of those things that only made sense in Resurrection F and then produced actual nonsense in every subsequent arc.
It makes sense when you consider those fighters in the top were literally chosen to fight for their universes survival. so everyone being universal + in power in the top makes sense. Even kefla mentioned she could destroy a universe in one shot in the anime sub.
Expect more discussion vids like I mentioned before! Just keep the comments civil though 🤫
To be fair I think they didn't mention Moro or Granolah is because they didn't want to spoil the anime only fans
@@gohanblack5545 Toriyama stated it in his interviews as well and there’s a much different culture for spoilers in Japan, so I don’t think that’s the case. There’s also aspects of the anime that only get VAGUELY referenced too (ex. we never see SSBE or SSBKK in the Broly movie, or the fact that when going through previous villains in that movie Zamasu never appears)
@@SaladSaiyan could you make a storyline for my character if you can answer yes to my question
When are you making if goku was evil part 14
If you think this is bad, think of the fact that base gohan is stronger than super saiyan baby goten, than him and goten when possessed by baby are both weaker than vegeta by a good bit, than base goku rekts both of them when before he and trunks in super saiyan had trouble with baby a few like months before, than see this, the saiyans who were and should be weaker than base goku, boost his super saiyan 4 far stronger than when he fought golden ozaru baby, that means their powers are enough to boost goku who should be far stronger than all of them beyond his previous super saiyan 4 literally minutes after, than this happens again against sin shenron, x10 kamehameha no damage, people lend him energy and he than rekts sun shenron with simple punches
We know, bro. We know.
Lol
I am dishwasher. Do you remember me?
AnimationRewind and all that toxic mess?
G+ debates and all that?
@@dillpickle7400 no nigga
I think the main issue is just the fact that it mostly focuses on pure strength and linear scaling. They have played around with it before, but 90% of the fights in the entire series come down to who has the bigger number. Other Shonen series use other factors to judge “power” where a character might not be physically stronger but they have some weird quirk (mha pun not intended) that makes them very hard to deal with. Outside of like Hit and a handful of other characters, the only variable Dragon Ball tweaks is power level. This has led to insane power levels. By the end of Namek most of the main fighters are well above the planet buster power level of 10K that is stated in the manga. I can’t imagine what Gohan, Vegeta, Goku, or Piccolo could do at their current levels in the manga. This isn’t even a dig at the series I still love it, but power levels are and always have been pretty silly.
Agreed! Too much focus on raw strength (with a lack of explanation on that as well) is definitely a detriment in some aspects. I do like how the Moro arc went against that though, both showing how techniques and abilities can play a HUGE role, but also with the idea that too much raw power and no control is detrimental. Would love to see more of that
This is all make-believe fiction anything can happen at any given time so doesn't really matter what power levels are what are what means what it's all fake and make-believe anyway so it really has no meaning but the most pathetic thing about all this is that they're not even original with their series anymore they threw the baphomet in there like every other pathetic Masonic person in this world is truly just pathetic joke.
@@SaladSaiyan that is a really good point. Moro is a very good template for how future Dragon Ball arcs could do threats that are not just bigger numbers. In a lot of ways it kind of felt like an early Naruto fight where they had to out think and out fight.
I liked when Guldo someone vastly weaker than Krilin and Gohan at a power level of at best 10.000 could use his powers to trick and almost win against Gohan and Krilin and ginyu force could become more gimmick figthers but Sadly Goku beefy 90K one shotted everything
@@Eric6761 wasnt hit way weaker than goku
Salad: "everyone grows so absurdly quickly"
Goten and trunks: 😭😭
Goten got ssj and ssj3 in the same arc
@@animerailroad7062 🙃talking about super lad
And gotenks got ssj3 not goten
@@ImzyH ?
@@masahirosakurai488 goten and trunks have 0 power growth in super
@@ImzyH watch them get a busted power up that'll put them on par with Goku and vefeta
Future Trunks closing the gap with fused Zamasu was the most egregious example imo but the entire tournament of power just throws out all of the rules and let's people scale up for no reason other than cool fight
This. The very first showing of a Goku and Vegeta fusion in the show and somehow Trunks with his Walmart super saiyan blue matches and or surpasses that!
The dude went from way weaker then goku black in base to being able to one shot his fusion, the same guy vegito blue couldn’t defeat, in the span of like 2 days, like wtf is this
It always blows my mind how they can expect earth-level heroes like Roshi and Krillen to keep up with something like the tournament of power, and yet they do! Realistically, the power differentials have gotten so huge that Jiren should be able to blink and literally atomize someone like Krillen from the pressure.
dragon ball makes no sense overall
A fusion of Goku and Vegeta goes into both their most powerful forms, at that moment, SSB. His base alone being above them at their peaks. He has a relatively equal fight with Fused Zamasu while slightly having an upper hand. He defuses and Kaioken Blue Goku can still hang with Fused Zamasu and not instantly get vaporized.
Either Goku somehow completely multiplied his power by magnitudes or Zamasu got way weaker. Correct answer being: The power scaling is shit
And who wouldn't you assume Krillin hasn't gone universal too?
@@universalspaceexpeditioner8259 BECAUSE IT WAS NEVER SHOWN AND EXPLAINED? I DIDNT EVEN SAY "OR" BECAUSE NEITHER HAPPENED, its so bad bruh
I remember thinking this even back in the Buu arc. They are at the very end. Vegeta is trying to buy time for Goku to do the spirit bomb. Vegeta is so tired he can't even transform anymore and is fighting at base. BASE! If even a normal SS boosts power by 50x and it was too weak then why isn't Vegeta vaporized when trying to fight kid Buu in base form?
Same reason a big bad punches Superman across the city and then turns and taps Batman so the guy flies a couple of meters back to fall on the ground slightly woozy.
I can agree with this, trying to powerscale in dragon ball is painful
dragon ball makes no sense overall
@@LavaCreeperPeoplecuz you dumb
in the Saiyan and Freeza saga, people liked Power Levels, Toriyama hated that so banished the whole system of power levels, so people started power scaling in Android and Buu sagas, now it appears Toriyama wants to destroy power scaling too, in which case... (Farmer with Shotgun vs Super Saiyan 4 grand Priest Vegito) should be a close match XD
I recently attempted to calculate how many joules 1 power level should be equal to. The result was different depending on derivation (something that should not happen with a unit of energy) and ended up being in the 10^20 range, suggesting that the average human could deorbit the earth. Needless to say I wasted my time.
This is just head-cannon
@@makssachs8914 It's possible that the scaling of power levels is non-linear, but it'd have to be a super weird function to get what we got tbh
@@makssachs8914 If master roshi with 50 power level can destroy a moon then farmer with shotgun with power level of 5 should be able to destroy a continent😂😂
@@Returntonature145 yeah that’s sort of the problem.
Not to mention that Beerus and Whis feels like an ever moving goalpost for Goku and Vegeta to the point that I don't even know what the point of DBS is anymore.
Goku and Vegeta really do all this training and we're still limited to U7's inhabitants while we still wonder how strong the Grand priest is as well as many other beings across the multiverse that have yet to be revealed to us.
Said nothing
We don’t even see universe 1, 5, 8 and 12s inhabitants; not alone their warriors :(
Powerscalling in super can make anyone's brain go in a Comatose State.
Super heroes and xenoverse is even more confusing
@@gokubread2733 Don't get me starting with games
@@Eric6761 oof!
@@imperfectmyst or worse, Cumber
@@Eric6761 super oof
Glad you brought this up: The characters get stronger way too damn quickly, it's not even just the absurdity of Freiza's 4 month training, it's EVERYONE.
My boy Tien has been consistently training, but as soon as it's time to fight Krillin and Roshi get plot buffs. Hell Yamcha beat Champa in baseball, he could probably hang with the best of them.
3:15
Cabba being strong enough to solo the buu arc is weird, but what's even weirder is that some people think that Teen Gohan (Ssj2) from the Cell Saga is just as strong/stronger than him.
I think that's a minority while I think others say he's a better character than cabba
@@hype5456Not To Mention He's More Muscular I Mean Look At him You Can Grind Meat On Those Abs!😂
@@davidlungujr6857pause
Super's Power Scaling just doesn't exist at this point
Lmao
When Android saga came i gave up scaling
@@Eric6761Don't act like super scalling is equally worse .. It's way worse than that
@@denyoellamcy8251 nah bro, android saga
@@Eric6761 Super scalling is way more illogical then z scaling and you can't deny that
I agree. The main thing in my opinion, is in the original it was about style, technique, and finding a way to work around the bigger power level. Now it’s, I have bigger number, no I have bigger number, I’m stronger than you! And of course, all it takes is someone finding a new transformation (usually Goku), and then the whole show changes. I liked super saiyan, super saiyan two, but after god forms, it became super ridiculous.
I love the video btw!
Agreed. Especially with the u6 Saiyans being even with the u7 base Vegeta should’ve mollywhopped SSj3 if Cabba had it
Fr, what proves this further is unexpectedly Copy Vegeta. He one shot SSJ3 Gotenks and gotenks didn’t land a hit, yet a stronger vegeta could have even a slight struggle against a ssj cabba? Power levels make no sense now 🤦♂️
@@kaijikhristicus8123 facts. Writing was all messed up
@@44TKO I also forgot to mention, even though it’s the manga, vegeta said cabba and his bases are about EQUAL to each other. Did cabba get some god training off screen that we didn’t see? Was there a secret hyperbolic time chamber they were training in at universe 6? Makes absolutely no sense 🤦♂️
@@kaijikhristicus8123even in the anime he said that 😂 either Universe 7 Saiyans were that weak that if they never got God training they would’ve been eliminated first in the T.o.P or every god took their fighters In the time chamber beforehand
Honestly it's gotten to the point where I just blockout the power scaling when watching or reading super simply because it just makes everything feel stupid which is sad because it shouldn't be that way but there's nothing we can do
Piccolo instantly destroying power scaling with a single quote.
Piccolo legit unlocking his potential once and being above all of super
The most annoying thing is that Ty hey are so much higher than planet buster, yet their battles rarely even really destroy planets
True bro but oh my god that statement saying base goku from the end of the T.O.P could be stronger than vegito blue from the future trunks arc really got me thinking that this has become a HUGE issue in dragon ball
For Super Hero, I just say Gamma 1 and 2 are around (if not a little stronger) than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. I just can’t believe that both Gamma’s would be on par with or stronger Ultra Instinct Goku from the Moro Arc.
and Granolah is okay?? See this is your problem
@@mymouseaintbroken wdym?
@@mymouseaintbroken When did I say Granolah was ok? Both of those wishes shouldn’t have been possible.
Ngl I still think that it was stupid when super saiyans were getting jumped by androids. Oh how has it become MUCH more dumber.
@@ultrascouter203 you watch naruto relax lmao
I think what Piccolo meant when he said that the Gamma’s were on par with Goku & Vegeta is that they were on par in SSB. As Toriyama has said that Orange Piccolo is on par with Ultra Ego and UI and Orange Piccolo punched Gamma 2 unconscious or whatever that expression was (quote from Toriyama: “I’m personally glad that he finally has obtained a fighting strength that rivals that of Goku and the others”)
Edit: He pointed it out nvm
I think that’s exactly what it is. When Gohan and Piccolo are comparing the Gammas and Cell Max to Goku and Vegeta, I believe they’re referring to their (full power) Moro arc counterparts. Which is the last time all four of them were around each other.
So I believe that Piccolo surpassed full power Goku and Vegeta in the Moro arc and is now on par with them Post-Granola/currently, which would make Gohan stronger than all three of them.
While I’m pretty sure people aren’t gonna like that, I feel like Toei and Toriyama are REALLY trying to hammer this in.
Krillin and 17 boxing with blue goku is ridiculous and even Gohan really but I’ll let Gohan slide
I completely agree with every last point you made. Don’t think this is controversial at all. It’s insane.
Can we admit that beerus holding back in battle of gods by the billions and or millions is now not so crazy people were clowning mfers back in 2019 when people were saying that on facebook & twitter lol
The moment we went from 'Frieza and his family were so powerful that they ruled a large swathe of the galaxy' to 'earth creates robots (which, lets remember, due to their nature can be mass produced instead of just making 5) that completely surpass Frieza' it just goes downhill in terms of scaling.
Power scale in dbs is like trying to solve the millennium puzzle.
The Riemann hypothesis is like 1 + 1 in comparison.
I actually remember totally not mark talking about the same topic a few years ago
And how Toryama used to show understandable power scaling even without scouters by leaving story clues that people can break down
Like how Vegeta gives orders to Nappa showing that if Nappa can defeat every Z fighter Vegeta having to be stronger than that
And the way characters fight other characters in the saiyan saga demonstrating their power
Yamcha dying
Piccolo staying alive being around even
Tien skipping saibamen entirely and fighting Nappa
The scaling was garbage since buu saga
My biggest issue started with Beerus and Whis. Specifically, Whis's comment on how much power Beerus used against SSG Goku. The iterations and translations vary from 5%-10%-20% hell, even 70% of Beerus was used in the movie. And the issues with this are that if any of these are true, then Beerus is pointless now. Hell he was pointless by the universe 6 tourny. Even if we say he used 5% power against God Goku, then Blue Kaioken x20 Goku should already be able to steamroller Beerus even if we don't count the Zenkai boosts.
Nice timing just got home so get to watch this plus get to continue my ritual that's been going on for who knows how many years now where I eat diner while watching a salad what if everyday
Honestly U6 saiyan power would have made more sense if their evolution was stated to let them embody the totality of the great ape and full super saiyan power in their base.
Still won't justify being equal to vegeta's base
Legit could've made them older and more powerful (plus what you said). Simple solution.
@@BlackedHawked This is a fictional story. They can make power ups or characters as op as they want. SSJ4 can be introduced now and be above MUI and UE because why not
@@powerjolt7215 I was just debunking the the commenter's logic. Ofc they can do what ever they want but as it stands now, it doesn't make sense
@@BlackedHawked I get you bro. Personally I would've just had the u6 saiyans have better relations with their destroyer god and angel and of course having them aged up quite a bit. Would've been more interesting to see that Goku and Vegeta have only touched upon god ki and its powers whereas these saiyans have it mastered. Then u7 would lose the exhibition.
What this simple change does is:
-Make the other universes appear as bigger threats that are more developed
-(If Zeno still wants to wipe out lesser universes) It makes the better universes seem far above anything Goku and Vegeta know seeing as even u6 who are above them, don't fall under the level needed to be one of the better universes.
-Better Character development behind the scenes for Champa and Vados
-These saiyans could have new techniques that Goku and Vegeta are too inexperienced to match (giving limits to their high battle IQ)
-More incentives to have everyone not named Goku and Vegeta get stronger. You're telling me there are universes with characters far above Goku and Vegeta and yet characters on Earth don't care? Makes no sense. Just imagine U6 got the rights to Earth... that shit would be crazy
Goku and Vegeta used the beyond God state in all super and with Freezer too their level un base only surpass SS Goku from namek arc
The saiyans getting stronger exponentially I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is that Gohan Piccolo Frieza and Broly closing the gap without God Ki.
Frieza's potential is like crack
Piccolo still confused
Gohan's potential's potential is crack on top of cocaine
Broly is green
Plus goku and vegeta are getting special trianing from whis and berrus so makes no sense how piccolo or gohan come close to that
Power scaling I never see people address is Vegeta. Everyone always says gohan gets cheap upgrades yet Vegeta went from SSJ2 to SSB in such a short time.
The manga has much better power scaling as goku and vegeta don't have such insane growth and have better reasons for it, along with goku black's growth being more logical and rooted in zenkai's with there being a clear progression from super saiyan-super saiyan rose, and technique plays a bigger factor in it, such as true UI and spirit control.
The main problem with dragon ball is that it doesn't have something apart of its power system that's different from raw strength. Naruto has its eye abilities and jutsu which, while broken, are set apart from raw strength like taijutsu and one piece has kenbushoku and haoshoku haki which provide different abilities for fights aside from the power based busoshoku haki.
dragon ball is the only franchise i know where an assassin is fully capable of blowing up a universe with his punches
5:00
To elaborate a bit more on why some people think base Goku at the end of TOP is stronger than Vegito blue during Goku black arc.
Basically the Goku at the start of TOP is a little (or a a lot) stronger than his Goku black arc counterpart which is some what comparable to base Vegito give or take. And he got whooped by Jiren no difficulty in blue kaiokenx20. But he got stronger after ui and is now fighting Ssj2 Kefla who is stronger than the spirit bomb multiple times while fatigued in ui. Than grow so much stronger when he used blue kaiokenx20 against Jiren with Vegeta Jiren needs to what try (he even tanked Jiren’s attack in base at some point which will probably tear the Goku blue in Goku black arc apart). He then went ui one last time against Jiren who is now at ~90% power and evolved into mui. Proceeds to destroy the same dude who destroyed him just ~30 minutes ago. At the end when Goku is fighting Jiren alongside Frieza and 17 he is fighting Jiren base to base while being arguably more fatigued than Jiren because he just recovered from the drawback of using mui not even 30 seconds ago. The same Jiren who surpassed himself and is stronger than ever is unable to bliz base Goku.
Where does Vegito blue stands in all of this? Possibly not even at blue evolved Vegeta since Ssj2 Kefla is stronger than the spirit bomb who is below suppressed Jiren that is already stronger than infinite Zamasu. The same one that Vegito blue can’t defeat.
At the end what is the point of all this powerscalling? Idk, super is kinda stupid.
We need more vids like this, enjoy videos we're we get to hear Salads thoughts
Modern Dragon Ball got me questioning the whole damn series.
Great video as always, is that some silent hill 2 music you used in the background?
The end music and great ducussion got me thinking alot. It's not really big of an issue for me but I would like more emphasis on techniques then transformations bc they gonna run out of colors to use eventually
I do agree plus on top of that power scaring in the dragon ball universe is really complicated I understand there is certain degree they grow either slow or fast but it's really game out of control because if their power level pulls to be a certain point why they keep growing even further beyond I feel like they're doing like a timescape and not focusing on the main thing because who posted to be having the power scale or try to keep certain things balances
Power Scaling is kind of dumb for this reason. The point of debating things like this is to have fun. It doesn't matter who's stronger it's just fun to talk about. I think power scalers have ruined this over the years and made the community worse because of it. "Goku solos" is one of the worst things to happen to the anime community besides all the racism, misogyny, etc.
do what if Frieza turned good, or just somthing where frieza does something like in what if cooler was cannon
I remember when Goku powering up to SS3 caused the entire Earth to shake, but SSGSS doesn't cause any issues even though it is something like, 10000x more powerful than SS3 Goku was back in the Buu saga. Even base Goku and Vegeta should literally shake the planet from a little light training or sparring at this point, and since every fighter except maybe Yamcha, Goten, and Trunks are all at power levels that put them in the top 20 or so known beings in Universe 7, they should also be causing issues when training.
Ki control
@@ToxikDeth Ah, yes, like Broly. The perfect example of a calm, collected, and controlled fighter who is able to supress himself enough not to destroy the Earth despite hitting it with a barrage of blasts.
I think the whole ssg thing can be explained through the fact that God ki can't be sensed by normal beings
@@creativename1673 😂😂😂broly is city level
@@Returntonature145 Nobody who can beat the shit out of Goku and Vegeta Blue and survive more than one attack from Gogeta Blue is below planet level, at the absolute minimum.
Even if you mean Z Broly, that guy literally destroyed a planet on-screen.
When i saw krillin 17 and gohan holding their own vs super saiyan blue Goku was when i lost hope😂
The reason they mention Jiren as the pinnacle of power in Super Hero, is because the script for the movie was made before the Moro arc, so I don't know about Toriyama's statements, but Piccolo saying that the Gammas are Goku level definitely doesn't mean UI Goku.
As for the Cabba thing, I always considered that base Goku's power was retconned after the resurrection F saga, there is no way kaioshin Zamasu is above battle of gods SSG Goku to give another example. That's why in the manga Goku never absorbs the god power.
Also this is more controversial, but I don't think that BoG God Goku > Z Vegito.
Salad if you read this, please reply or heart my comment, I would really appreciate it.
I do feel the gammas are at least blue level, with Orange Piccolo being UI level
@Big McChungus Imo there is no way Piccolo is on par with UI, they may be on the same "tier" but not on par and I'm gonna explain why. Toriyama pretty much said that Broly > Brainless Cell Max, and as we saw Piccolo lost to that Cell Max which was also weakened by Gamma 2.
@@dimitri4888 Orange Piccolo would still be relative to UI, Broly just beats UI. Piccolo even stated he didn't believe Goku or Vegeta could've beat cell max, which was a line specifically put in there by the writers to give us an idea on just where these characters stood power wise. Both Goku and Piccolo couldn't beat cell max, they're in the same ballpark, and given Toriyama supports this, it holds up.
@Big McChungus How does Broly beat UI Goku? In the Granolah saga Goku, Vegeta and Granolah were confirmed superior than Broly, and it was never confirmed that Broly trained since then.
@@dimitri4888 I can kinda see how broly beats UI.
Remember broly was keeping up with ssb Goku in Wrathful form(great ape in base). It took almost a maxed out fusion to beat broly after super Saiyan.
Lets be real here
The powerscaling has been completely lost ever since the beginning of Saiyan saga. We went from 100s to 100s of millions because of a galactic tyrant. Then somehow Gero comes up with Androids way stronger than that. A few years later everyone has to be multi-turbo-universal+++++ to even breathe the same air as our main cast
Im not even gonna say anything about Frieza and his comeback. You already know
It just feels like the gap in power is too big now.
With vegeta it did feel like goku was stronger, but the fact that goku lost to vegeta and they still beat him made the gap seem not as big. With freezer the gap felt pretty big after goku turned SS, but the fact that trunks warned them all and they trained for 3 years made it so the gap could shrink again. And after gohan turned SS2, the gap was huge again but then gohan got weaker over time so they all were more evenly matched again. And after the buu saga it didnt feel like the gap was there since they defeated buu with the spirit bomb and goku being SS1, he didnt go SS3 and just beat him with power.
It only became a problem with god ki since noone besides goku and vegeta had access to it, so the tournament of power felt less like all 10 fighters were evenly matched. Vegeta and Goku have special training with the gods now so any mortal training seems pointless in comparison.
Actually, concerning the power level of Universe 6 Saga Cabba, we can say that he would more likely be equal to Base Vegeta WITHOUT GOD Ki. Using God Kid against opponents like Frost or Cabba, would have been overkill.
Battle of Gods Base Goku would have been at around 40 million, because Beerus stated that there was no way Goku could have beaten Frieza in Base.
Vegeta's power during Battle of Gods would have been far lower as a result.
Then we do not know what type of training Vegeta and Goku undertook on Whis' planet, and how much it helped them improve their base stats, seeing that they mostly trained for the control of God Ki, and for SSJ Blue.
We know that Goku trained in the time chamber mainly to put Kaioken on top of SSJ Blue, and not necessarily to improve his base.
Vegeta probably focused a lot more on conserving energy while in SSJ Blue.
So, if Vegeta's base form without God Ki would have been below 70 million, that would still not be too OP for somebody like Cabba, who was fighting all the time against countless foes.
Love your what ifs there super fun to watch keep up your good work.
This is a pretty good video, only two things is would be that the Movie continuity is meant to occur in both Manga and Anime. That's why it's so vague, so it can fit within both continuities. Additionally, sometimes the editing (especially with that warbling effect you see form 2:30 to 4:30) is a bit distracting
I usually blame Buu and Shin for why Universe 7 is simply just miles behind in power and overall quality of life compared to every single universe by a significant margin. Buu killed all the competent kais 10 million years before the Buu saga I think, so I’m guessing the Saiyans were created some time after that by Shin who is so embarrassingly weak that even an apprentice from the 10th universe isn’t even in the same league as him. He clearly has no idea what he’s doing, and the Elder Kai has clearly never been a reliable source of information(mortal time limit). Beerus is no help either. So the credit for the Universe 7 Saiyan for growing so powerful despite the fact they are literally insects at birth is well deserved. They had to earn all they have. Base Cabba soloing Buu saga with no difficulty is the result of the Gods of the Universe being straight up inferior to every other universe in terms of productivity.
I wouldn't say power, even after most of the kais died there were still a lot of powerful guys like dabura, Majin Buu, Frieza etc, etc
@@ashuraomega7113 except they art every character in the top is stronger than dabura the strongest non god or artificial being and he’s from demon realm so really it’s king cold
5:02 I saw an argument like that before
Do the full episode to episdoe scaling I would love to see it!
That would be the greatest pain known to man
U can see s shining's vids
@@SaladSaiyan True, but also something i've been meaning to do myself. Redo all the sagas from z but with sensible powerscaling too while keeping the story and power order of characters mostly the same. Sounds kinda fun but i haven't got the time atm.
I mean, there has to be some sort of explanation, for example, cabba probably has been training the entirety throughout z, even though he wasnt a thing then, kindo like those Minecraft TH-camrs after doing off camera mining
6:31 lmao you can see the superhero clip through his mouth and nose
Love the discussion video. It definitely seems to me like the whole power scaling started to really go out the window once power levels were done away with. But at the same time imagine if they had tried to keep power levels throughout the entire series? It would be like playing Diablo 3, just throwing up a bunch of progressively absurd numbers that people just have a hard time grasping. Plus as you've mentioned strength seems to be tied to being able to win a fight so much that if concrete numbers were kept on power levels, this might just further complicate things as far as scaling and outcomes go.
Doesn't seem like something we as fans can do much about but just kind of discuss. Keep up the great work Salad.
I find funny how different are what the spanish and english communities at powerscaling.
Spanish:humans can't pass 200.000 of power level, goku and vegeta can activate at will god ki making their base go from slightly stronger that their buu saga to as strong that ssg, and ultimate gohan is the same in super and z.
English: base cabba can solo dbz, ultimate gohan is as strong as ssb and base goku is stronger that blue vegetto.
Universe 6 saiyans should be around raditz and nappa, gohan should’ve be that strong, piccolo should’ve only reached super saiyan 3 level, cell max should be around super buu level or higher since it was built to be as strong as goku but the scientists shouldn’t be able to make robots with god ki or capable of fighting gods, and finally broly shouldn’t have been able to keep up with goku or vegeta
So it would just be the Goku and Vegeta show. No one would matter and everyone other than our main duo would be one shot. Nice...
I can justify Frieza never training and becoming busted but I draw the line at Master Roshi vs Jiren
Things like MUI Goku getting binked by Granola only to just fight on par with Gas in SSB is just horrid scaling that makes me cringe.
Facts, then apparently turning on emotions while using ui sign allows you to solo a full power gas with mid difficulty💀 granolah arc is the worst arc in db history
Thx dude can’t wait to watch this
I’m probably in the minority that find frieza’s power up ridiculously. You mean to tell me this fool couldn’t beat a non- mastered super Saiyan in 4 short months can basically one shot the entire dbz saga villains, the first 3 super Saiyan forms, God, and pretty much overwhelm blue for a while? I know the dudes got potential but come on 😂
If you want more powerscaling content in super with actual power levels and numbers, watch sayian scholar, he scales the full super manga to power levels from Z
It definitely doesn't, like Goku using SS1 them jump STRAIGHT into SSB, skipping all the other forms. Not to mention so many OP characters. Dragonball Z seems more refined until the Buu Saga.
I feel like the solution should've just been, leave the God forms as an absolute, last resort. It coulda help with keeping Super Saiyan and it's forms relevant while also keeping the immense power of the God forms present. So say, Frieza coming back. SSJ3 level power. Sure he's still a planet buster, but it's much more in line of a technique than a direct scale of power.
Then U6 vs U7 Tournament. Hit still forces Goku to use SSB Kaioken but it's to a much insanely quicker fight and the power actually leaves Goku very much drained afterwards.
Black rolls out. God and SSB are relevant completely, along with SSJ because Black is tapping into Saiyan powers while also being a God, and the escalation of his powers correlate with the forms needing to be used against him. So on, so forth.
TL;DR - God forms should be last resort, not first thing they do.
At this point I believe they should make the anime and manga two different timeline cause a lot of stuff aren't add up when you compare the anime and manga together
I do think superhero for example should have definitely showed glimpses of Moro and stuff that'd be pretty cool a little hint for what to see but one of the worst parts about it for me is just how stupid Goku is I just had to get that out there in everything honestly though really interesting how the manga has its own set of events and the manga is honestly just a fun read for super btw I honestly really hate the fact that they made all the other arcs in a way useless like especially super Saiyan it was just so bs and it really should have still meant something and the way they get so strong so quickly should have been slowed down
I just wanna know how powerful is base, potential unleashed and orange piccolo 😞
Being fair those two are the easiest to scale from the Z figthers, taking Gohan figth with Kefla and the fact Kefla strength wasnt growing insanely and that Gohan was said to grown soo much stronger makes me believe they both are Buutenks level or early battle of gods because Kefla was restrained by pride troopers and Frieza easily and Piccolo sadly got stuck on Cell saga level in my opinion
@@Eric6761 you're wrong
Cabba is from u6
the u6 saiyans could of existed millenias longer then u7 saiyans who were destroyed because they were getting too powerful. On top of that, cabba, and caulifla are the strongest known saiyans on their planet. They could simply just be rare high potential saiyans like broly
In manga u6 sayians are around 3,000,000 units (base of information in buu saga Goku dosent get stronger in base form (even in dbs)) so imo in manga they are legit😊
Look at the bright side
It makes people shy away from scaling and go to other (honestly better) aspects of dragon ball (or storytelling)
Isn’t there a novel or movie manga / screenshot comic continuity too ?
Yo, I’m pretty sure the whole gammas power scaling thing is alright, I mean I don’t think the red ribbon army would be able to get info from ultra instinct, but they would with super saiyan blue through resurrection F, and so, they prolly on the same level as blue evolution… so I’m pretty sure that solves that. I did agree with the rest of the video though, getting rid of power scaling makes it tough to make sense of the battles and evolutions
I’ve been scratching my head over this since Golden Freeza lol
I been doing this since buu saga
This is one of the reasons why I love Dragon Ball Multiverse. The power scaling is extremely consistent and characters aren't this absurdly strong for no reason
DBM is great, wish it would just finish already
I mean I agree with everything you said except for the ladder part if anything there are way too many characters in multiverse that are extremely overpowered for no reason especially bra
@@ashuraomega7113 the same could be said about Dragon Ball Super. Every character they introduced now has to be at least as strong as a Super Saiyan God or else they're just fodder to Goku and Vegeta. I mean just look at Superhero, where Gohan and Piccolo get extremely over-the-top power boosts just to make them relevant to Goku and Vegeta's ultra forms. At least with multiverse the characters don't have an infinite power scale
@@brent1993 again I agree with everything except the last statement. Characters like bra basically have no limits in power
@@ashuraomega7113 at least Vegetto and Bra (to an extent) have a justification for being as strong as they are
This is the best argument/discussion I've seen about the power scaling. It never really made any sense to me
I disagree with base Cabba being God level. Goku's godly base in resurrection F seemed to be more of a power up then literally just being his base form. If Super Saiyan Blue is Super Saiyan with the powers of a Super Saiyan God and Goku and Vegeta still use normal Super Saiyan, it tells me that Goku and Vegeta aren't always using the powers of a God. If you really think about it, every fight after battle of gods where Goku had in Super Saiyan, he never fought God level characters. He only used Base/Saiyan Beyond God against Monaka Costume Beerus, and Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta. Everything else is a mess though especially ssj2 Trunks in the black saga.
Excluding MUI and Ultra Ego, I doubt Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Vegito. Vegito's base alone according to Vados, a base Potara fusion is both characters at their strongest multiplied by 10s of times meaning Base Vegito in the black saga was at least around 40 times stronger than SSB Goku if we say Goku and Vegeta were equal and that's ignoring Kaioken.
See, as a writer, the way I think about it, "Powerscaling doesn't matter."
Basically, all things are secondary to making things interesting and furthering the themes. It's why I've never much cared for powerscaling in general. As an example, I'll use Future Trunks. Does it make sense that Future Trunks can compete with Goku Black just from getting angry? No, not at all. But I don't care, because it results in Trunks being able to take part in the defense of his home. It would feel sorta flaccid if Trunks gained a power boost, only to then be jobbed out entirely.
I think you're right in saying that the problem comes from how battles are handled in Dragon Ball. In another series, Trunks could have gained some sort of unique ability that allowed him to participate in the fight while Goku and Vegeta took the brunt of the damage. That also introduces its own issues story-wise, but it would make more sense powerscaling wise.
Still, I think in general, Dragon Ball Super has less clean writing, which makes the stupid powerscaling much more prevalent. Z also had some dumb powerscaling, specifically in the Cell Arc, but it was disguised by the writing being much tighter.
Basically, TL;DR: Power levels are bullshit
someone who didnt watch dragon ball till the tournament of power i am confused did goku give birth to gohan before all those events see i would go start dragon ball from the beginning but i wont
I think we all should just enjoy the anime and get into the Manga if we want a more clear cut, a director's cut if you say. Things like Goku fighting Jiren in base and mastering UI right away just don't happen in the Manga. And the reason is obvious: almost every chapter of the Manga is personally revised by Akira before releasing, and the compilations even have corrections, like volume 9 where Toyotaro explain he rushed those chapters and made corrections.
In the other hand the anime is released straight away and is basically Toei's version of the original script made by Akira, which is probably very vague un power scaling and we know from the very first movies of original DB that Toei doesn't care if doesn't make sense to some people, as long as is flashy is good to stay.
So, if you want to have a clear version of the powers, visit the Manga, because the anime is a mess in this regard in almost every saga. And what about the movies? Well those are as relevant for power scaling as the filler in the anime is. Just enjoy the movies for the punching and character development, and wait for Toyotaro and Toei's revised versions in the Manga and anime respectively, those will be more helpful to do power scaling.
THE BLINKING. OH GOD THE BLINKING
i think in manga goku and vegeta didnt absorb god ki or atleast they didnt get stronger than ssg goku in their base and they have god ki only in ssg and ssb and so on but i may be wrong
You aren't wrong they never absorb SS God into their base in the manga
@@XJSPlays02 nice
@@XJSPlays02 that makes sense.
The gammas are really simple. They're around blue level due to gamma 1 stalemating ultimate gohan who is shown to be blue level in super.
I think to see where super’s (and Dagon ball’s powerscaling in general) falls short is to look at one piece. Luffy from wano is capable being beaten by Akainu from marineford, not because luffy didn’t get stronger but because Akainu has abilities that can counter luffy’s power and be able to beat him.
What if Goku didn't go into the RoST alone as a kid? (I have a feeling he only went in as a kid in the anime?)((I don't care if that's the case I still want answers or a what-if lol))
Well for one, the last 2 movies are directly tied into the anime, and the reason they don't talk about any arc after the top is because the script for superhero was written before/during the grahnola arc, so they are trying to avoid spoilers for anime only people, every other point is valid tho
I feel like power scaling is very important to the story of most shows so that you can understand that ssj cabba could destroy ssj god Goku in battle of gods
The anime has been terrible since the start at handling power levels and power scaling
When Goku unlocked God form, he could go toe to toe with a serious Beerus (in the movie the God said he used 70% of his power to defeat Goku and, even though they later deleted that line in the anime adptation of those events, it is still implied that Goku forced him to go serious even in the "anime universe" otherwise he would have just destroyed earth had he not got any satisfaction from the duel with the Sayan)
However, when one arc later he unlocks Kaioken Blue x10 (and later x20), this is still not enough to surpass Beerus and all of a sudden Blue, a form even stronger than the one which forced a GoD to turn at least a bit serious , becomes weaker than Beerus at his 4% or 5%...something even below the "I'm toying with you" level
But things got even worse and more inconsistent with Blue Vegeta being as successful as Kaioken Blue ×20 Goku in pushing back Zamasu's attacks and Goku shocking the Gods of destruction so much when he turns Blue that one of them even claims that "his power rivals that of the Gods" (I know that rivals=/=equals, but how come is 4% of their power enough to rival them????)
Then you have the Tournament which not only is one of the worst battle ever written (the fighters almost never run out of stamina despite never holding back, Goku recovers from 1 near death experience and 2 or even more all out duels in a matter of seconds and almost everyone receives random and huge power ups for no reason at all), but also creates another inconsistency because Goku, despite being now stronger than Jiren (a guy stonger than the Gods), is still weaker than Beerus even after unlocking Ultra Instinct
The manga did a good job at dealing with these issues (no Kaioken, people losing battles due to stamina in each arc, no stupid and/or undeserved power ups like that given to Trunks, etc) but even there has been some inconsistencies lately (mostly Goku non being stronger than Beerus despite being on Jiren's tier)
This is why I like gt from a power scaling point of view due to everyone directly scaling off of buu saga
The Super 17 Arc powerscaling really is goofy as well.
@@JoseC687 oh yea like that time base goku was fighting super 17 a bit (in base) and everyone else in thier strangest forms like majuub was fooder agianst him
No truer words were said
Yes.
Wassup bro can you make a senario of dragon ball AF pls?
People REALLY should stop pretending this was not the case with DBZ, especially the so beloved Namek Saga. The reality is that it was always Frieza who broke the power scaling to an INSANE level back then and does it today too. Or do people forget Goku went from 90,000 to 3,000,000 just by a single zenkai boost because the plot demanded? LOL
No cap bro i though that this video was about that rumor. Raditz was going to be in that movie.
I think one thing that makes dragon ball kinda boring is that each form is a flat out upgrade to a previous form. They are always stronger, faster and more durable while also giving new abilities. If the forms weren’t entirely linear but rather each form had a drawback and an advantage then it would still feel like skill. Example when we had super saiyan grade 3 we saw it was a bulkier form that increased strength dramatically at the cost of speed, if there was a super saiyan form that did the inverse then we could see a character shift between them just like we saw with god and blue, where god was used for travel and defense due to being more efficient and blue was used for offense for power. The fact that there is basically no benefit to using lower forms aside from efficiency makes it boring.
I have my own fictional universe where power scaling is cracked eg. Freiza has a diamond form and characters can combine two or more different sayian transformations
In the anime, goku absorb the god ki into his base while in the Manga he didn’t
The only thing I consider canon are the drafts toriyama gave to Toei and tyrotaro and also Stan lee said stop power scaling
90% of the powerscaling problems wouldn’t exist in Super if they removed the idea of Super Saiyan God being absorbed into base. It’s one of those things that only made sense in Resurrection F and then produced actual nonsense in every subsequent arc.
It makes sense when you consider those fighters in the top were literally chosen to fight for their universes survival. so everyone being universal + in power in the top makes sense.
Even kefla mentioned she could destroy a universe in one shot in the anime sub.