Vingegaard's BIGGEST Tour de France Mistake
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2024
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I think Jonas showed more emotion after his one stage win than he did after winning either of his two Tours de France. It was clearly a very significant moment for Jonas during his recovery journey and I think it shows the magnitude of his injuries and the personal effort he put in to get to this point.
" Recivery journey" - that word journey is really being over used...lots of cyclists have crashes....get over it
@@amblincork But not alot of cyclists win the tour twice lol
I think that in some ways he worked non stop to get ready for the tour, from when he was able to again and that left less in the tank for the tour.
We are lucky to still have Jonas with us. He had a punctured lung and broken ribs. Amazing he came back the way he did. Jonas will be unbelievable next year if he continues to make a recovery.
Yep we have to appreciate them instead of trying to make someone look bad cause they were second 😃 i know they would probably beat me if i had an e bike 😂😂
@@rookie7413 Hopefully all of the big four and their teams are healthy and in top condition for the 2025 TDF. That will be an epic tour.
@@mitjapavlic7656 Probably?
According to Jonas himself, he is already at a level that is best in his career! I don't know what Jonas limit is! but each human being have a certain limit that is the maximum! more time and training can only get you to that point and perhaps a bit beyond for a short period of time! that's why we have people like Usain Bolt in Sprint and Chloe Dygert in Pursuit that nobody can beat or come close for years and years!!
@@mracer8He wasn't at his best and stated that too.
It was actually quite amazing that Jonas was even able to make the tour. A second place finish was truly remarkable.
Jonas wouldn’t have started unless he could compete for a win. A second place finish is below expectation for Jonas and Visma actually.
I’ve gained a lot of respect for Jonas. Like a true professional, he never used injury as an excuse, and battled for second place, while gaining form throughout the tour. As fans, we can only hope that all contenders come into next year’s tour in top condition. 🦋👊
@@J-cz7yv You're delusional if you think you can be at 100% so soon after a massive crash like that. Breaking several ribs, his collarbone and punctuating lungs. All you pogi fans who were crying about a mild wrist injury last year and using that as an excuse for Jonas dominating him are pathetic.
@@frederiklei7887 all I said was the truth. He wouldn’t have started unless he thought he could win. They said as much ever since the crash. Never said anything about being 100%. Sorry you can’t handle him losing. It’s been a week, cry less
@@frederiklei7887 You're delusional if you think you have any special information or insight about anything.
Vingegaard's performance was amazing giving the circumstances. Kept the Tour alive and interesting in a way the Giro never was. His sprint win over Pogi was unmatched (never happened to Pogi before). He did not win his third tour because another rider and team was stronger this year, not due to mistakes. Hope the rivalry continues in 2025. Pogi and Vingegaard make each other better!
Yes they do make each other better. 👊🦋💪
It's axiomatic that competition improves the breed.
No Kuss, No Van Baarle, No Kruijswijk, No Roglic + WVA and Jonas not firing on all cylinders. Personally I think JV did outstandingly well to get second.
... and Jonas needs up the octane level of his "go juice". Pogi obviously upped his.
Sepp was missed. That Vuelta podium shot of him is money.
GC KUSS
Agreed. Money 👊🦋
I don’t feel a lot went wrong for Jonas. I feel he had an amazing TdF and made the Tour exciting. Pogacar had raised the bar this year but Jonas’ nearest rivals were still a long way behind. Went to Lourdes to watch them …Great job Jonas …thank you! we will see you again next year
I can already see the title of Chris' next video.
What went wrong with Bora-Hansgrohe?
Fu*king everything. [end of the video]
Roglic broke his back, no?
"Knuckleheads"
End
So ask yourself - "how do professional cyclists recover so much quicker than every other human on the planet?" Watch Icarus. Watch all the Victor Conte vids on YT. Go read about FloJo, Marion, Lewis, East Germany, and the USSR. It's time we STOP THE FARCE and just make PEDs legal. There is no way any testing will ever catch it all. Just accept it and make it legal. If these athletes want to take the risk and possibly die at 40 then LET THEM. It's part of the sport at this point
Oh man. Bora’s list is too long to even think about doing a video. 😱🦋
Roglic is lined up for La Vuelta. How serious is the break?
7th
Glad Jonas was able to get healthy and compete for the W in the Tour. Respect.
Me too. Thank you Jonas for putting in the hard work so we all could enjoy the 2024 TdF that much more. 👊🦋
Thanks, Chris, fantastic insights and thoughts as always!
👊🦋
I think for Jonas to be 2nd in this years TDF is a greater achievement than last 2 years victories. And he had less help from his team with alot of key members missing and recovering. Most of the time he was fighting alone against Pogacar and still managed to give a good fight. Matteo Jorgenson was immense tho
@@asparjoe a fight is a strong term. The tour was over after stage 4.
@@werb24 amazing that a guy that, according to you, didn't fight could hold on to his 2nd place for another 17 days.
@@sbrusgaard He fought but it wasn’t a fight. He wasn’t a genuine threat at any time in the bike race. No one was.
@@werb24 tell that to Remco.
@@sbrusgaard Haha didn’t mean he wasn’t a factor in any way. He just never factored in the win. GC was over on stage 4. It was obvious that Pogi was at a different level.
Thanks Chris. Love your coverage and insights! (Also , your video editor rocks and deserves a big raise!)
Yeah I vividly remember stage 15 where Jonas attacked and Pogacar was on the wheel taking a bottle and food with his hands off the bars…..It told me Jonas was in trouble. The Visma directors should’ve seen the same visual and they could’ve went with plan b.
There were so many stages but when tadej won him in the mountains in deep your it was over, but what should they do, give up`? They didnt have a team to support putting pressure on tadej in mountains, they could not even support jonas strengths if jonas had to do it it wouldbe all on him. And he tried, but he wasnt nearly strong enough. This year he came out looking like a damn skeleton its clear he was not on top. I dont even think tadej was pushed to the limit this year.
Wonderful delightful breakdown as per always-
Thanks Jack 👊🦋
Thank you for the great analysis of the tour this year! I always enjoy your videos! Always insightful and spot on!
Good analysis. I was screaming at the TV at that moment: "Stop Vingegaard!". But to defend him a little bit, he is putting up the best watts of his life. So the team car analysis could be if we can't break him under these conditions, then we can't break him at all and it is better just to maximise the time to Remco. With the time gaps you need to take some chances and throw the kitching zink after him.
His biggest mistake was that crash in April. He did better than any reasonable person would expect in the tour
Jonas fan fiction account this guy
@@J-cz7yv
@Sir_Winston_Smith I think their injuries were on a slightly different level.
@@sbrusgaard if anyone, (Jonas/visma) included, says they didn’t expect a top 3 placement they are lying 🤥.
Yep. Jonas was super no doubt. 💪🦋
True that.
Visma's deterioration started at La Vuelta last year when poor sportsmenship led to bad chain of events
Exactly. 😱🦋👍
You didnt even mention the excellent bike change in stage 9. Tratnik got the orders to stay behind Vingegaard in case something would happen. And it did.
I don't think it was Jonas' "fault" to let Primos go. I think we have to respect Primoz' own desire to have a clear captain role in the TdF - which he would obviously not get at VismaLAB. He'd be shared captain perhaps, but that's still second fiddle to Jonas at the end of the day.
And the shortcomings of the team this year hardly revolved around Primoz. There's like 3-4 other riders that should have been part of that team that were injured or ill and a Wout and Jonas in suboptimal condition.
It's an achievement the whole team even made it to Nice!
Kuss is a fantastic rider, no doubt about it, but let's be real: you need some serious horsepower up front to even think about attacking Pog. I don't think Pog is losing any sleep over Jorgenson making a break. Now, if you have Van Aert in full form going up as a satellite or Kuss making a move, maybe you start to see a flicker of concern in Pog's eyes. But honestly, even then, Pog in full form isn't exactly shaking in his cleats.
One question. If Riglic was there riding for Visma along side Jonas….. would the TdF have been even more interesting. If you answered yes…. then Visma should have kept him. 😜🦋👊
@@ChrisHornerCyclingIn the eyes of Primoz, Primoz is not an asset to fullfill others dreams. Watch the documentaries. Might wanna start with Plan B on youtube. Proceed to All In, season 2 episode 5 (on Amazon Prime, I believe). All the inside communication on Visma. Primoz came to The Vuelta to do the double. Giro and Vuelta in same season. Consecutive Vuelta and so on. Surely, Primoz had BIG issues with not being no. 1 priority.
With all the bad luck Primoz have had, you will understand his frustrations to be 2nd or 3rd fiddle to anyone, when he avoids crashing. It doesn’t matter one iota to Primoz, that the podium at The Vuelta was iconic. He would have preferred racing full on, with him on top, Kuss 2nd and Jonas 3rd (not the order that I would expect, if Jonas and Primoz was allowed to “race it out”).
It was a failure by Visma to let him go, but also a failure to not recognize his personal ambitions and having dual captainsship. To play them against each other. I guess Primoz is OK with “Sammen Winnen” as long as it’s him that is doing the winning and Wout the occasional stage win. I love his ambitions and totally understand his frustration (anyone will, if they watch Visma documetaries).
@@ChrisHornerCycling Then Visma should not had gift the Vuelta win to Kuss, cause that was, what lead Primoz to leave that team. And Primoz himself told us, thats that a huge part ot the reason he left the team. So you and the public in general played a huge factor.
@@ChrisHornerCycling I would actually say no. I mean tactically speaking, as we saw on stage 11, it seemed to matter little whether he was riding in a Bora or Visma jersey. He was still riding to catch Pogacar, just like Jonas and Remco. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
And any possible tactical plays seem, in retrospect, hard to pull off given how strong Pogi and UAE were. At the end of the day, all of VismaLAB's tactics had to culminate with Jonas dropping Pogi at some point. And he couldn't. Roglic wouldn't have made a difference at the end of the day.
I always recall how Froome had a really bad crash and never really got back - Jonas is back in action after just a few months and looking really good. Very bloody impressive and bodes well for a great season next year.
Agreed 👊💪🦋
Completely different level of crash as much as everyone thinks jonas was close to death. He wasn’t. He was off bike for 3 weeks. Nothing like Froomes crash. Plus all upper body injuries.
@@ChrisHornerCyclingA Bicycling magazine article on 23 July said that Jonas's second place finish after the injuries he suffered and not competing for 3 months was maybe the greatest performance in TDF history. Hard to disagree. When both riders are healthy Ving wins.
Wow cool to hear Nathan Oneils name here did not know you rode with him.. Knew him when owned and ran a stop In Gainesville GA. and rode with him many times... kewl...
I was impressed with Vinegagaard's effort coming so soon after serious injury. I am a Pogacar fan, and would like to see them both compete at their best!
Agree with everything you said, but I asked the question, admittedly a day after you posted the video, but on the stage you highlighted with Jorgenson pushing the pace up the final climb on the flat before the climb Visma used up Wilko Kelderman on the flat. For me this was a knucklehead move. It probably wouldn't have made any difference, maybe Kelderman couldn't have done any work at the start of the final climb, but last year if JV had used up Roglic or Kuss on the flat before a final climb (having no one else left) Jonas would have been left exposed as he was on this stage, and I think quite rightly you'd have called this out for what it was, a knucklehead move.
I totally agree with you about Roglic, but after what happened at the Vuelta, which I believe was promised to Rog, or at least the team lead at, before Vingegaard was also added to the lineup, and especially what happened on the final mountain climbs there was no way back and he was going to leave. Maybe he already had a deal in place with Bora, as it was then, to leave.
Even with Roglic leaving I think it was important to bring in replacements for the Tour specifically. Yes, Jorgenson as a replacement for Roglic, maybe, but for the others?
Finally, and I've not heard anyone mention this at all, but if riders to push Pog had been sent to the Giro then he'd have had to work harder and surely would have been more tired for the Tour. I don't see just sending everyone to the Tour it's a winning strategy for anyone without the resources of UAE.
I also think taking a recovering Wout van Aert on top of a bit fully recovered Jonas is a luxury that Visma just couldn't afford. They said themselves too thin. If you go down the list of Visma riders they took compared to UAE and it just wasn't a fair fight. I mean they took Tratnik who in my eyes is a classics rider, Benoot and Laporte are necessary as workhorses for the flat, but I only saw Jorgenson and Kelderman as useful in the mountains.
It was a perfect storm of injuries for Visma, Kuss being the biggest, but I think also Van Baarle, and Kruijswijk were massively missed as well. I'd even go so far as saying riders like Uijtdebrooks and Atilla Valter should have been sent instead of stone of these people they selected.
I honestly don't know how the Visma leadership thought that the team they had with Jonas in the shape he was would even match up well against the lines of Almeida, Yates, Sivakov, and Soler (and that's not even mentioning Ayuso who could have been useful if he hadn't seemed to be riding for himself before dropping out).
And I'm not even a Visma/Jumbo-Visma fan. I have questions also for many of the teams, like Ineos and Bahrain-Victorius.
100%. Alot of cycling fans forget this is a team sport. With a second string team, returning from serious injury, a kid from another team carrying on about big balls instead of working together makes it near impossible to win especially after uae going on a massive off season spending spree to bulk up an already serious gt squad. Primoz got it and worked with jonas to reduce the damage. If remco had of seen this all three could of worked together whilst primoz was still in the race. Landa did an amazing job to keep remco up there whilst finishing top 5 himself. The guy had the best tour of the lot considering all he achieved. I would have loved to have seen him snag a stage but it's a massive ask when he's there to teach the wonder kid how to ride a gt.
@@matthillard9363why would Remco work with Jonas? It makes no sense lol. Jonas is worlds better as a climber. Remco work to attack Pog just to get dropped by Jonas? Listen to yourself man!
In stage 15. Visma did have a few other mistakes. I can’t cover everything in a 15min video but you are correct that Visma could have done things better. One example was not slowing the pace enough for Jorg when he had the bike issue with 25k to go. I don’t believe saving Wilco would have help much but maybe a little. Wilco doesn’t seem to have that explosive power to reduce the group by much. At least we have not seen that level from Wilco with a Tdf type level field so far. As far as tiring out Pogi at the Giro again you are correct but would have needed Jonas, Remco, or Roglic appearance there to have that effect. Other wise G and sometimes Dani are second page quality riders, so that’s the most damage that could have been used on Pogi. 🤔🦋👊
Jonas had the advantage of a better overall team the years he won the TDF. I remember Pogs winning in "20. He did not have a good team to support him which made his victory even more amazing since he had to do it all by himself. . i think his team was better the next year and that is also the year Jonas blossomed. Pogs injured last year but overall not the form he needed and same with Jonas this year (who did have a real good team to support him).
Jonas was perfect and no mistakes really. He won stage 11 by hunting down Tadej, it was just a matter of time until his conditioning caught up to him, like in Tadej's case last year.
When you are not the favorite, you must use other teams to beat the favorite. So Visma never had to lead the bunch, you let UAE work or another team, but you keep your riders fresh.
This year Visma wanted to help Wout to get a win, so they didn't go full for Jonas. A mistake and it cost them a closer gap with Pogi.
Love the show man very exited about Oregon race good luck sorry can be there God bless you , well done .
The fact that he was able to come 2nd after Tadej, when just months ago he had a punctured lung and only had 1½ month of preparation, that is just mental! Next year he will even the score: 3:3 (assuming no crashes/injuries (to all of the big four, hopefully!))!
love this retrospective Mr. Horner, your the boss
Vingegaard's biggest mistake? Assuming that this year's Tour would play out much like the previous two, that is Jonas would get stronger towards the third week and Pog would have a bad day. That didn't happen. End of story.
but what else could they do, they knew coming into it that jonas shape would be impacted, they also know they are idiots to attack tadej in the early parts where tadej is at his best - to win in early where you are weakest vs when your opponent is strongest is not good tactic. They had to hope that jonas shape could last, and that tadej could break. But they lacked the team to support pressure, and jonas shape was not good enough to last all tour. Visma and jonas didnt have the power and the right men to compete this year, so its a lose lose there is no tactic that could win them, only tadej failing and breaking down could win them which he didnt he worked harder than ever and was very strong this year.
You need to talk about your man victor campenaerts getting transferred to visma. Your man and the american flying eagle on one team. It makes me also think you need to come up with some more nicknames while sitting on the chesterfield. I love your analysis but I live for the nicknames.
another great analysis. As your pal Bob Roll would say "every effort you put in during the Tour has to yield some positive result"
Tadej sitting up with a bottle mid-attack reminds me of Steve Bauer at GP des Amerique sitting up cleaning his glasses with his jersey behind Charly Mottet :) We guessed Steve would win when we saw that.
Jonas made many statements to indicate just how deeply this injury impacted him mentally. I was so impressed with his performance especially given that his team was weak. He is special.
The only on-spot analysis of Vingegaard's Tour I have heard. Apart from not ideal shape, this year Jonas really missed the team. Matteo Jorgenson did a wonderful job. He is so young and needs to gain confidence. But where was the rest of the team? Letting go Roglic was a big mistake, as was a mistake how the team managed last year's Vuelta. Roglic was fundamental for Vingegaard's first Tour win. Having him in the team would have been precious, both as an alternative to Jonas or as a destabilizing element against Pogacar. Pogacar, who made many errors this year, had a strong team that saved a lot of situations. Vingegaard had just Matteo, and the young rider could not do more than he did. Thank you so much for sharing
After a serious crash that left Jonas with not one, but two punctured lungs I think he did an extraordinary job at this year's Tour. It's no surprise Jonas is taking the rest of the season off as going all in on the Tour maxed him out like never before. #bigballs
@@marshallalexander4329 doing the San Sebastian Classic and Tour of Poland later, so not exactly off. 🙂
That makes sense. Jonas is at his best in the steep climbs. Tadej is at his best at pretty much everything.
Jonas pedals in an awful manner.
What went wrong is that Visma speed up his training program and didn’t give him any proper recovery. So you seen his fitness plateau during the tour. Pogi did what Visma was doing to him and attack him !!!!!
I think the Plateau stage where Jonus pulled Pog up the climb, the problem with Pog is that if Jonus sits up early then Pog will go earlier. This is the problem at Strade Bianchi, if others work with Pog they get further down the road. If they try to sit on Pog, Pog gets crabby and then takes off earlier. Would Pog go quicker on his own rather than sitting on??
There's no beating Pog like this.
I think this year, Pog is unreal. He's never shown this much dominance in his previous Tours 😱
yea this year the combo of weakened jonas and pog in his best shape ever made him dominate without much to stop him. When youre op against someone plain stronger then its just not much yuo can do to break them.
@@gg05irgm not sure to beat Pog this year you'd need to be doing over 8 watts per kilo which I'm not sure is humanly possible. Not sure over 7 watts per kilo is possible for 40 mins as Pog has done at the Tour
Jonas so brave! Respect to him, even though the consequences of the terrible crash, he participated! In short time, not even recuperated 100%
Team is so important
In my view, Jonas looks emaciated, like maybe he's got an eating disorder, or is taking weight reduction a bit too far. Tadej looks like he's got his body mass dialed pretty close to perfection. Sure, we know how huge power-to-weight ratio is on the big climbs, but when the body fat gets below a certain point it's going to negatively affect extreme endurance and recovery. I'm speculating, but I think this gives Tadej an edge over Jonas, despite the fact that on paper it looks like Jonas should have at least as high FTP due to his lower weight. What do you think, Chris?
Jonas lost 2kg of muscle after his crash
@@KroghVinther
Pogacar came exausted from winning the giro. 😂😂😂😂
It is incredible for Jonas to get second place in TDF just weeks after broken bones!!! Can't wait for next year's TDF with a healthy Jonas and Pogi dual! It would be even more epic than this year!
Next year Tadej will win many classics and giro/tour.Jonas has no style riding a bike.
Love these deeper analysis videos, thank you Chris😄 was wondering about Hindley - does the pro peloton pay attention to pedalling style at all? He is the most pronounced toe pointer of the top guys - is it a fraction less efficient but only visible on the longer climbs?
Chris the fact that Johannes had a horrible horrible accident not even 90 days before the tour de France and then the turnaround and be able to even finish a race in the tour de France is amazing I didn't think he was going to win the yellow jersey this year because of that horrible accident next year I'm going with Johannes not with pogi
Or, it wasn’t that horrible after all… Egan Bernal’s was horrible.
A few broken bones heal up quickly and since his legs were OK he had better numbers than last year.
Next year, he will have tougher time to fight for second place with Remco.
@@tamasvarga67 You try puncturing a lung and breaking ribs and collar bone… That was a SIGNIFICANT injury, not a minor incident!
@@eskemeldgaardkrogh4145 I don’t have to picture it I had similar after an MTB crash with seven broken ribs collapsed lung and liver contusion. Not pleasant for sure but not really horrible… and I had just public healthcare.
@@tamasvarga67 I tried the same when I was mowed down by a drunk driver on my motorbike. Broken ribs weren’t so bad, however, the punctured lung was SCARY and took forever to feel right again.
@@eskemeldgaardkrogh4145 Probably Jonas's lung wasn't punctured just collapsed which takes a couple of days to go back to normal. It couldn't be that serious if he produced better numbers than last year...
Just look at motocross riders they are racing a week after collarbone surgery. Just put a plate in and go... they are crazy.
He wasn’t as strong as Pogi but he hasn’t ever been. But the key thing was he was gonna break on the third week no matter what. He wasn’t gonna be able to handle the training load.
His power numbers will tell you something else. He absolutely has the power the match Pogacar, especially on his kind of terrain.
@@MarkTomeh you saw his power meter at some point?
I would not say that Jonas ever broke. Stage 19 maybe a crack but that was repaired on stage 20 and 21. Other than that stage Jonas was solid. Pogi was more solid. 😜💪👍🦋👊
@@ChrisHornerCycling yup Chris is right. Jonas never cracked. He just didn't have the legs for the full tour to beat Poga, which isn't surprising. He struggled in the Alps by his standards, considering he usually dominates the Alps.
@@werb24 I've seen some of the numbers he's put out before yes. He puts out some of the highest numbers we've ever seen. Believe me power is not his problem. He just wasn't fully fit, and he still finished 2nd, which is remarkable. Jonas is special. He'll be back. He started this season super strong, so the crash was a real shame, because we were gonna probably get a true heavy weight battle.
I think last year's Vuelta proves that keeping Rog was impossible for Visma. People keep saying JV is humble, but he's just as hungry & ambitious and was actively attacking for that red jersey.
Visma's fatal mistake was trying to control two unparalleled champions & have them play nice. Especially when both were denied the Vuelta for Sepp Kuss. Sepp still deserved the win, but Visma got way too greedy and sidelined Roglic two grand tours in a row.
I actually find it healthier for both the sport as well as Rog & JV's rivalry to compete on separate teams.
Vingegaard should get 2 water bottles full of rocks just before the downhill leg.
🤣good one👍
I genuinely think there was no way to keep Roglic for Visma after Kuss won the Vuelta. Im certain Roglic wanted to race for the Vuelta win considering all the attacks on Kuss. The fact the team didnt let him in the end meant he wanted to leave.
Chris you apologized for all the times Jonas has dropped Pogacar in the hills. You’re calling them mistakes, they’re not. Eating, tactics, strength and power are all part of the race. All of them have to come together for one to win a race or a grand tour.
When you forget to eat and you’re dropped, you’re dropped simple and plain because you’ve ignored a crucial ingredient of the race.
BOOYA!
Booya 👊🦋🏆🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋🦋
It was rather smart from Visma to let Roglic go, as they knew he would crash over again at the Tour.
😆
There is always that argument. 😱🦋👍
Chris can you also do a video on WVA? We want to hear about his crash, recovery, and if you’ve still got him ranked top 10 riders in the world.
Vingegaards biggest Tour de France mistake was crashing in Itzulia Basque Country
Its funny people keep saving Jonas his injuries were different to the ones of Tadej in 2023, but dont mention his crash was more then 2 weeks earlier. That means more then 2 weeks time to recover!
12 days in hospital, 8 of those in the ICU -- please learn what perspective means.
Jonas Vingegaard’s biggest mistake was being too aggressive on a descent at the Itzulia Basque Country. He made the Tour de France but he was not in peak condition.
That depends on how you define "peak". He was peak enough to start the race and no one believes that he didn't feel he was ready to do the race.
Sorry, he just wasn't as good.
@@whynotride327 Yes, getting injured and missing wheel time is just part of cycling.
@@whynotride327He did not build a base because he did not ride any races before the Tour. He will be stronger next year.
@@whynotride327 Peak means at the pinnacle, ie he could not improve above that point. Two and a half months is not enough time for the human body to physiologically heal the injuries he sustained and regain the ultimate form he would have had sans injury. Humans as a species detrain more quickly and regain conditioning more slowly than many other mammals like racing horses or dogs.
Let's not debate the crash. A lot of reasons other than being too aggressive. As for being not in peak condition, there is some merit to that.
2nd placer for JV is a miracle and superb
What went wrong ? TP was in the race.
Pogacar was gifted by the injured Jonas because he (Poga) lose twice ...ha ha ha
@@JoselitoMayoreshahaha your boy got his ass kicked
There is no "your boy" in cycling. We're not football hooligans. We love the sport of cycling, we don't bicker about favorite riders
While tactics matter, in this tour, Pogi was just head and shoulders above Jonas and everyone else. While the consensus was that Jonas would get better towards week 3, I felt he would blow up due to limited training / recovery. I look forward to the their duel in TDF 2025 when each of them would be in their best forms. PS. Matteo Jorgensen was a great revelation this tour.
Chris - Can you, and I know I’m really going out on a limb here, speculate on who would be the best team for Tadej to take to the Vuelta? Now that Jonas has decided to skip the Vuelta, maybe the Spanish GT is ready to open their wallet and offer some nice appearance money for Pog, just like the Giro did. Because who wouldn’t want a little Pog magic on their roster and be the final destination for the Grand Slam of cycling? Every race needs a strong fellowship, and the Vuelta could use a bit of Middle-earth Pog magic.
As far as the team is concerned, would Majka and Ayuso be the ideal climbers to back him up, or is that just wishful thinking? Is Majka going to be the Gandalf to Pog’s Frodo, guiding him up the steepest climbs with a staff of wisdom and a touch of wizardry? And Ayuso, would he be enough to support Pog on this epic quest?
Ayuso wants to go on his own.
@@RB..1 I'm sure he does.
100% Correct. They should never have let Primoz go to Bora. Jonas does not have a solid team mate like Primoz. The only hope is Jorgensen, the future Lance Armstrong. Even Sepp Kuss is not good enough. Well Chris you will have to find a way for Jonas to challenge Pogi in the mountains. Without a fight in the mountains, any race wouldn't be interesting. So, you are my man Chris, to solve the problem. 👍👍♥️♥️
2024 TP beats 2022 and 2023 JV. Problem is 2023 JV is likely his peak. If Pogi is at his best he’ll be nearly impossible for everyone.
If they are going to completely remove the red zones using either smart science or doping, then I feel you need constant use of steroids to prevent muscle deterioration. I feel tactically, Jonas went way too deep without that red limit. He probably ruined his career by trying to keep up with pogacar. This has nothing to do with tactics imo. This was just about abusing Jonas and it was a bit disturbing to watch. I even feel pogacar felt a bit guilty at times.
I doubt any of that will happen to Jonas. Any. 🤔🦋
Remko is a super star, Vingo another level, this year Pog is an even higher level
I agree, Chris, it was lame of Visma not to keep Primoz happy. He was a consistent winner year-after-year on that team. At least he got the big bucks at Bora/Red Bull, but he does need to do something to stop the wrecking and why is that, Chris, what's up with all these crashes these days, maybe you could do a deep dive on that. I think part of it is too much screen time at speed or even slow speeds as we see riders plow into road furniture at odd times during stages.
As I see it, Primoz is a knuckelhead, when it comes to "just sitting in the peleton". He is constantly sitting in the wrong place of the peleton
@@fancyfreak9397 I honestly don't know the reason(s) for all the falls by our favorites, just that it hurts to see them and their adverse impact on seasons and careers. And they should be honest with themselves and the fans, tell honestly what occurred on the mountainside crash a few months ago and what was learned from it and how they'll ride so as not to repeat it.
It is sports. There is always one better. That doesn't mean own faults, it only means one was better. I know lot of successful sportsmen don't compare own result with others, only how they performed theirselves.
For Roglic I believe it is better for him changing teams. He was going to have to play second fiddle to Vindegaard and the opportunity to win another grand tour was down the toilet. I would like to see him pick up a few more titles in his career.
No tactical mistake. Visma gave it a good go, used the only possible strategy against the more explosive Pogi, but Pogi was stronger this year. Your screenshot of Pogi sitting up was on a 3% section, so not really representative.
Primoz wanted to leave because he wanted to be number one. No way you can keep a guy that wants to leave. Also, in previous years Primoz was not the reason that Jonas won.
Thanks Chris and Garrett...are you planning on covering the Olympic cycling ?? Please ................ Papillon
Jonas was magnificent, and he was inspiring to watch. I felt Visma bringing in a compromised team as a result of injuries and illness made Jonas' defense even more difficult. With Pogacar in the form of his life, Jonas was unfortunately compromised as a result of his injuries. The question that we will never have an answer for is, Would Jonas have beat Tadej if he had never been injured and if Sepp was there and Wout was 100 %. Pogacar was simply too much, and he also had an all star team working for him.
It’s interesting that some riders are never quite the same after their injuries (Froome, Bernal, etc.), while others like Jonas stand to make a full recovery.
We have yet to see.
@@alpsalish yet to see he was 2nd in the tour and by a large margin after Remco lol. Bernal hasn't come close and Froome never even got close to bernals current form. They need to get with Jonas doctors to get the same "medicine" lol
@@mikeytek yeah, but that isn't where JV wants to be...
Great observation
🇺🇬🇺🇬🇺🇬🇺🇬🇺🇬 thanks for tge updates we appreciate
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Yeah totally thinking the same thing on stage 15, Tadej just sat on Jonas wheel easy.. while Jonas used all his energy
If I had to guess what went wrong, Tadej rode faster. And all that other stuff Chris mentions… Thanks for the coverage and The BE. 🦋 👊🏻😎
😂👊👊🦋🦋🦋
Sorry chris but i dont agree with that pogacar is a better descender than jonas is. We’ve seen in the last 2 TDF’s that pogacar in technical descends pretty often miss the apex or misjudge a corner and that jonas takes them much sharper. The reason why pogacar takes time is because on the less technical parts he has more absolute power and is somewhat heaviee and so rides away.
How is remco heavier than jonas yet he's also shorter?
I agree. That crash was visibly affecting jonas on the decents. When he worked with primoz it reduced a lot of time damage. His confidence started returning though but by then it was to late. Jonas did say that the crash made him rethink his priorities about family and cycling. His decending 12 months ago was faultless and if he'd had support through the flats he'd put time into tadej. If he rides the vuelta with a healthy squad I can see him winning.
We agree to disagree. 🦋👊
Tadej put the work in, and has improved his descending, to the point where Jonas no longer has any advantage there.
Spot on Chris, did Visma never consult you or ask you for team? That would realy be a mistake... You're the best.
They hired a former Swimming coach for next season...
Wow. A swim coach. That’s different. I hope he did some cycling. They never called me. 🏊♂️☎️😱🦋👊
Both improved a lot this year (as a normal year to year progression), despite Jonas accident; he would have been even stronger wthout it. But Jonas went so deep during the Tour that his over compensation will be scary next year.
Tadej would have been .much stronger without the Giro.😂😂
Given the difference in form between them, no matter what tactics Jonas employed and how smart he rode, Pog was always going to destroy him.
"Intelligence is important but at the end of the day, the one who can have the legs wins"
King Pog, 2024
And it's not just Jonas' legs, it his whole team. If he had fit Wout, and Kuss, maybe he has a chance. But without those two, his teams were inferior to UAE. Stronger rider (Tadej) on strongest team ofcourse steamrolled Jonas.
He's not a king, have some respect for Royalty.
@@CHRoOMAX 😆😆😆
I think the biggest thing is what you said in the beginning. His team was just not there. Jonas had a demolished team compared to 2023.
hi chris. do you think pogacar at the level he is currently at could win the tour de france against 2023 jumbo visma without a team? just by following vingegaards wheel and attacking when needed. i believe there's a moment there isn't much a team can do and it is up to the captains. am i wrong?
What went wrong was be didn't have the legs. He was far from his best form fora grand tour. Be did fine in the first couple weeks but ran out of gas in the third week, especially the Alps where he's dominated in the past. In 2025 he needs Visma to be a bit stronger, and include Kuss. He'll be back.
I'm so glad you are not a team director as the Tour would have been boring 😜🤣
Not the finish of the race. Just the middle would be boring, the time gaps would always be smaller so the TdF wouldn’t have been over after stage 15. So in some ways my style would make it more exciting. 😂🦋👊
True, but Stage 15 was one of the most epic stages in history.
Comparing Jonas to Tadej,is like comparing Fuente to Merckx. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Personally, I don't think Jonas made any mistake.
To use the word mistake is incorrect.
He was involved in a horrific accident.
He almost died.
Broken bones, punctured lung.
Only the intervention of his doctors and advancement in medical science saved his life and basically made him race again.
Similarly, check his numbers on this year's Tour and last year.
I mean his numbers exceeded his numbers last year.
Tadej is just stronger and better prepared.
You could argue counterfactuals until kingdom come.
From the absence of Sepp Kuss or Roglic, or UAE having a "stronger team," or lack of a racing base since the injury, but when it came to the mano a Mano with Tadej, Jonas could not match him.
This is good, because, next year's Tour is going to be monumental.
Why is anyone saying he almost died
Did Jay vine almost die he was the worst in that crash in the basque country
Mistakes are mistakes. Period. I already said many times over how impressive Joan’s was to make it to the TdF start line. If I’m only going talk about how impressive it was that he made it to the start line and everyone obviously already knows that. Well, I may as well call my channel NBC. 😜🦚🦋
Pogacar came to the tour after horrific exaustion from the Giro .😂😂😂
@@J-cz7yv he said in an interview himself he thought he was going to die at the crash, couldnt breathe etc. Some might interpret that as almost died, which i guess could have happened if not helped. That's why he said the victory of tadej this year was his greatest, he almost cried several times in interviews this year talking about what he went through. And i guarantee you jonas pain threshhold is huge thats why he is where he is, so these people who want to say its a minor thing happened really are coping hard. This year he pushed himself almost into a skeleton thats how high his pain threshhold it. His form dropped this year because of the lacking prep and body toll taken, but you could see where he was going mid tour he was getting ready to eat tadej but then his body couldn't handle it anymore. Strangely tadej seemed to gain power mid tour this year. I think this could be because of tadej emotional nature(also his tactics are not logic they are often emotionally rooted unless taught differently), his performances appear to be very tied to his selfconfidence - its just that he is in such insane shape that almost no one can make him reveal that. Next year is gonna reveal a lot more. Is tadej so improved jonas cannot catch him? would jonas really have won this year if not for the injury? We will maybe learn more next year.
Chris, do you think Visma may be able to do the same Jonas/Primoz tactic with Jonas/Matteo? Matteo sure is proving he has some pretty good "grand tour" form. Not grand tour, but he only lost to Primoz by bonus seconds in the Dauphiné..... ?
Short answer is no.
Jorg needs another step. And then yes visma could work with that. 👊🦋💪
@@ChrisHornerCycling I'm onboard with that thought train. Thanks.
Hey chris, you really should try to get your hands on that interview from nils pollit, to some german influencers. Sadly it is in german so you need to get it translated. he talks about tactics and how the tdf influenced his fitness. You might get crazy when listening to him talking about pogis "ideas" :D
This is fascinating, hope chris sees this
lol drop some of this ideas in the chat please!
My wife in fluent in German. So that wouldn’t be hard to do. 😂🦋👊
Next time would help me out more if you have the time and date of that interview. i.e. what stage and was it before the stage or after. Other wise a date would help a ton also. Thanks. 👊🦋🙏
th-cam.com/video/JpvozpzUGso/w-d-xo.htmlsi=mXZSPBlF-l7fa2FC
Sorry 😂 My TH-cam drops it directly at the top of my recommendations. But I guess you don get that many German videos recommended
This video begs the question, had the team been on better form and Jonas not had his crash, could he have beaten Pogacar this year? Or was second the best result available?
yea in a was i think tadejs progression shocked visma tbh, and because jonas was injured this year it gave them another year to reach that goal - this year they could have legit lost in a close tour. I really dont think tadej was pushed to his limit, you see jonas pushed himself 200% here he was loooking like a skeleton by the end.
I never like Jonas because it was always being strategic and boring, never attacking and always riding a wheel.
Even if there was only a 10% chance of him breaking Tadej on that stage, I gained enormous respect that he tried. There's tactics, and there's lighting up a race for the fans and this stage was all of that because of his move 👏👏👏
would be nice to stimate how much watts pogacar saved on the wheel and how muchs extra he generate after dropping Vingegaard. to know how much different was the effort
Hej Chris. Do you release you videos as podcast?
What went wrong is Jonas was not 100%. He came into the TDF probably around 85% and it showed. Just wait till next year when he can come in at 100% fourm.
This is the first year that Vino raced without ROGLIC. That is the difference, Pogacar always had to respect Roglic as well as Vino. No Roglic, no TdF.
:o new video oo
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Chris you read my mind....I bet Jonas had a big part on Primoz's departure. And here we go, the team and Jonas are paying for it...I don't Visma Lease A bikd will win any grand tour again as long as Tadej, Remco, Roglic are riding in the peloton...
Chris, I think it’s time you show us your chesterfield
Jonas is awesome. Hoping for a good 2025!!
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Man this tour would have been even more epic with a 100% Jonas and co. Really wanted to see a genuine head to head of a pogi coming for revenge
Pogacar came exausted from winning the Giro.
Only few are capable of winning giro/tour:jonas will NEVER make it .
@@user1qaz2wsx3edcFinally someone who gets it. Otherwise it wouldn't have been since 1998 that someone could do it. All this Vingegard fans work on my nerves. It's like they only watch tour de France.
Yeah it would’ve been totally epic to watch Jumbo 3v1 Tadej again… NOT. We saw a genuine head to head and Tadej wiped the floor with those boys. The only way Jonas has any chance of beating Tadej is with his super team which he didn’t have this year.
Meanwhile what makes Tadej so impressive is that he can win a tour all by himself, just look how he won his first two TdFs. And look how his teammates performed compared to how Jonas’ teammates like WvA, Kuss, and Roglic performed for him at the last TdF. Tadej never had that level of help, even this year, and still dominated.
Didn't jonas break Marco's record on the climbs and beat all non galacticos in TTs? I didn't see a single stage where he performed noticeably worse, I did see tadej not have his signature crack stage, which could be prepetration and visma missing Mountain lieutenants kuss, roglic, kruijswijk, van baarle.
@@W4TSKYtadej's style works to his favor in not needing help. He attacks frequently and far out, often before his last domestique is cracked, so Yates and almeida can just follow as he's already up the road. Because he takes yellow early by winning week 1 stages it forces other teams to attack him. Meanwhile, jonas and visma are in the sky team mold of not attacking but just outlasting you with their train, which takes a really strong team. Tadej's team is elite, I just don't think he needs them as much.
Visma Lease a bike might have some secret power they didnt send to Tour De France. I am not sure about this, but maybe their junior cross country skiing world champion Jørgen Nordhagen is their second best climber after Jonas. But I am not sure about if he was in topform because he dropped out of two races because of illness. Maybe he will show something in Alsace today.
I know what happened : Hawk Tuha, size matters : One team collectively (UAE $50,000,000 million) has bigger balls than the other teams.