Just my 2 cents. I really enjoy Dr Mike’s content and he’s obviously a very smart gentleman quite jacked himself. Just sparking an open forum on if we as a society are starting to become EXTREMELY obsessive with all the pencil neck details
bodybuilders perhaps do not need to progress with heavier weights to keep their training interesting because they get the same fulfillment with progressing with their physiques and competing.
I really hate that this community of folks lifting is getting away from that. I actually was a technique bro for a while and realized it was killing my workouts. I had to stop because the fun died with it. Unless you are a pro bodybuilder where it's your literal job to get jacked working out should be a fun thing 95 percent of the time, or you won't stick to it.
@@Madchris8828 Even when you want to be as jacked as possible, why not have fun. YOLO. Does Sam Sulek care what nerds think of his form? I don't think so.
@@jprice_ I agree overall, my point was thought that most pros talk about how they don't enjoy like 20 percent of their workouts. As I said though it's their job lol
I don’t find Dr mikes advice to be rocket science at all. He’s very straight forward and simple with his ques. I found his instructions to not only work better but are a lot more enjoyable and stimulative. It’s fine if you want to throw weight around, more power to you but if you’re going to use all your time and energy to do hard work you might as well get the most out of it. As Mike has said many times, it’s fine if you want to perform an exercise a particular way but if you want MORE out of it then do it this way. Beginners and experts alike can gain a lot from his training. There’s some form experts that are useless, I’ll give you that, Dr Mike on the other hand is very practical.
@@kadaj7269 and that's why i think it would be very fun to watch a debate and a workout with buggz and dr. mike, because I agree with you, they both know what they are doing clearly it would just be good to listen what they got to say about each other
This is perfect - exactly how I feel. I used to HATE training for college sports, super regimented, it feel like clocking in to work...nowadays I just blare the tunes and get after it. I stay consistent and go hard because I enjoy training and I'm bigger than I've ever been. TOP CHOOK OR NOTHING.
Just hit 1300lb total @ 175lb. Just wanted to say thanks for being one my main source of youtube fitness inspiration and motivating me and to train with intensity. MINDSET!
This is a crazy triangle as I watch Alex, Bugez and Dr. Mike. Almost like a weird collab all at once. Excited to see what Eric has to say as the super brolord 9000. Lets go!
The best gains I have ever seen and the best feeling in the gym was actually going in and aiming to HORSECOCK as much weight as possible with relatively good form - Something in the 70% goodform 30% TOPCHOOK THROWS IRON range - Partials, complete failure - Less focusing on the tiny details more just about getting in there and SHIFTING TIN. Most fun and best pumps i've had in a long time
@TylerBaker-ky7rp a minimum of 6/8 with "good" form - and then at least another 5 with "questionable" form Depends on how I'm feeling on the day yknow but the goal is always to LOAD UP the intensity no matter what.
@TylerBaker-ky7rp hell yeah brother keep pushing - doesn't matter what range you're hitting as long as you're trying to move large tin and pushing yourself hard. Occasionally I'll go for huge singles/doubles to push myself beyond but I find i get more intensity out of higher rep ranges, that's just me though! Keep it up brother!
Middle of the two ideologies is the perfect mix. Love training "aiming for perfection" and the feeling of the RP style, but can't take the fun out of it if you personally don't enjoy it. Throw some heavy ass weight around every now and then and enjoy the process. ALSO, the RP style of training is actually the most enjoyable type of training I've gotten into. It gives other metrics to try and gauge progress, and pushing the sets to be extremely difficult for other reasons than just weight or reps. I don't have bad training days when I'm focused on keeping the reps consistent, if I have a weight in mind during power lifting prep and miss it, it can ruin the workout for me. Above points still stand that you need a healthy medium.
Yeah I think you can expand your frame of reference to appreciate increases in performance other than surface level “ape ego” (not trying to be derogatory, we all have it and need to know its place). And people should probably lift in a way that it’s JUST fun enough to be consistent.
I used to use a note pad, got strong af lifting without counting temp but lifted with control… grew to become one of the biggest guys at my rec center and as soon as i shifted to trying fads like longer temp vs 1-2sec down, and things like keto for more energy, it all went to sh!t.
@@jmass4207 Performance when it comes to slow reps and "better form", that seems pointless at worst, very inferior to more weight or reps at best. Strength is the only true variable you can use to measure progress, the other stuff is just means to increase it or just increases endurance or adaptation to that weird slow motion tempo.
Bugez, I'm 100% a pencil neck and you are absolutely right with "paralysis from analysis" I have done so many body weight workouts and I always end up quitting simply because I always over analyze the tempo and then disappoint myself, I got little weight to use so I can't lift heavy unfortunately, I'm thinking of saving up for a good quality sand bag and using that to move some weight
24-32kg kettlebell is enough to get you out of the pencil neck status while never leaving your home. I like to log every rep done, stacking up those numbers can be motivating and before you know, numbers will turn into solid muscle.
Buggs and Dr. Mike should do a collab for a month or two where Buggs follows strict RP training regimen, while Dr.Mike does whatever bro science stuff Buggs tells him to do 😁
Yeah....how'bout noooo.... That would absolutely cause a rupture in the fabric of reality itself. I'd rather have the time-space continuum remain intact. #FrFr #Science
My big thing was being hampered by my joints which are ground down and fucked up from years of abuse. Finally started feeling better and making progress when I started tuning in to RP's content & dialing in on a more methodical program. If you're young and/or free from injuries, move weights and get bigger however you most enjoy, but, at least in my case, Dr. Mike's approach seems to be the way to keep going for the long haul.
That's the whole idea too. Dr Mike n Jeff Nippard n everyone like them all promote some of the fun stuff of bro lifting. Even science discoveries support some of these things (half reps, cheat reps -> to get eccentric, drop sets, etc). The way they go about it is via a controlled, safe, measurable environment. Its all good stuff that everyone loves, but safer 😂
Very glad to see this critique. Many things are over-intellectualized in this day and age, even such a practical thing as lifting. Of course you need to be SMART to make training progress as well but a little (un)common sense goes a long way. You will always learn more by just doing the thing in the gym than from watching Dr Mike videos which, as you point out, might lead to paralysis by analysis. Completely agree that this is the approach coaches and trainers take when they want to make the client feel as they don't have any idea of how to do things and need the trainer/coach. KEEP IT SIMPLE fellas
I really enjoy these broscientist breakdowns. Leave it to boogs to make original content in so many forms. Who cares if you lose some subs by deviating from your normal content, the real ones will be entertained. The suckers assumed incorrectly. You're growing a whole garden of knowledge here boogs (also when do we get Florida gardening videos? Growing garlic takes 9 months but don't be discouraged. Maybe start with kale, it would be perennial in FL and you get infinite purple kale forever you'll turn purple like Thanos)
@@FloridaManGraham yeah which makes total sense. He was genuinely a young guy with a huge audience that he wasn’t mature enough to properly manage. As he’s grown up and matured, he’s found his own path.
@@FullRangeOfMotion7Alex left behind all his goofy lifts (e.g. banded Z press, above knee rack pulls) and now spends all his training mastering fundamental exercises. These days I think his only odd lifts are those chest expander exercises.
All these guys who preach about slow and controlled reps are already established lifters. They got their powerlifting trophies (Greg Doucette) or their body building careers are already over and they're just trying to keep their mass (Flex Lewis). They have the gaul to tell all these young guys not to do things how they did them; not to push themselves too hard or not to take risks, when they themselves got to where they are because of those things in the first place. They haven't just forgotten where they came from; they've forgotten what it's like to have a young man's heart.
Was just thinking the same thing. People are going to do this stuff because they see how big these guys are and think it's this training that got them there when in reality it's completely not.
exactly, the new guys get all so bogled down in "muh science workout" "muh ROM" etc. that they end up just staying in the same place forever. I'm not saying good form isn't bad because it absolutely isn't, but man, if tweaking your form to your liking while still being safe helps you move more weight then do that shit instead of some weird ass stiff like movement. If Arnold cheated reps in his day then why the fuck can't we?
I find deep stretch, slow eccentrics, bodybuilding style training extremely fun. I'd say I lean more on agreeing with Mike's 'optimal' training, especially for beginners/intermediates. I reckon that year of tempo training helped you refine form and fortify joints so that when you did go nuts you were in a stronger position to train that way. But one thing is for sure, the raw passion and authenticity that flows from Eric is ispiring as hell. I feel like roaring like a cave man and maxing out on weighted dips!! If this chanel had any more testosterone, It'd be banned as a PED.
my joints got fucked from too much horsecocking when I was younger, now I pretty much do RP style training and it works and actually feels therapeutic often. of course I will get back to limited horsecocking from time to time when my shit feels better, which it mostly does now. I do really like the feeling of a slow eccentric and I don't particularly care about numbers as much anymore, although maybe I will when I get back into it
Hey look, if you enjoy it then more power too you. If I had to train like that, I wouldn't train, it's so dull. I don't wanna be stuck lifting 1-2 plates on bench for 10 years. If I train RP style then I have to virtually revert back to my 1st year of training and I just won't train if I have to go back on 9 years of progress just cause I can't do more than 80kg for 3x10 5 sec eccentric pause bench focusing on contraction. I wanna throw around 180 on bench and 270 on dead cause it's just fun, the point of me training is to be able to lift heavy shit and if I can't then I don't wanna out the effort in.
I disagree when you say that working out like RP feels "like a chore", personally i actually find it really fun, i do however completely agree that without the occasional "just put the biggest goddam weight on it and go hard" is necessary to feel alive, the goal of these videos of course, is to get you two to collab because i love you both dads please dont fight
How in the fuck am i only finding your content now bro🤦😭 THANK THE IRON GAWDS for you Bugez💪🏽💪🏽💯💯🤌 So tired of the dork shit. Overanalyzing absolutely takes the joy out of body building!! Definitely subscribing!
I think there is some validity to what you're saying, obviously this is very specialised training since they're focusing entirely on building muscle not strength or anything. I think most people view lifting on a spectrum from full ego bro style lifting to very technical science lifting but honestly I think you can take some aspects of both since there are pros and cons to each. I train with genuinely pretty good form but I push fucking hard and I am always pushing up the reps or weight every single workout which I think most people should do. The optimal stuff that mike is talking about is probably most beneficial if you're an advanced lifter and you are entirely focused on bodybuilding, for the average gym goer you should just focus more on pushing up the weight and reps and as long as your form is decent at a minimum you will probably be fine. But with bodybuilding I don't think the weight matters too much since you can get big from using pretty light weights which is what I think they're going for, in terms of lifting for the average person it is definitely more important to push the strength, you shouldn't train like some top olympia guy who is 300 pounds shredded lol just fucking bench some heavy weight.
@eee_d888 couldn’t have said it better myself. Dr. Mike focuses purely on the muscle building aspect of lifting. Eric is making an argument for strength building techniques. Both of them are correct in their methods. I feel like Dr. Mike needs to clarify more often that his methods are specifically designed for muscle growth rather than strength.
Building muscle will increase strength. If you want to powerlift though, train to peak for a meet or 1RM. Pumping out and using wild form probably won’t be much a part of that program though…
So a few things since I watch both of your channels a fair amount: RP is from a primary bodybuilding focus, not for anything like powerlifting. Hence why it's always super controlled and no horse cocking (like you said it doesn't train CNS, since this is primarily for bodybuilding). The Dr Mike Criticises celebrity workouts are tbh mainly playing youtube algorithm, overly critical. Something that he has reiterated in some of his other videos, like you were saying with the tempo training stuff, is do what feels fun FOR YOU. Some people may find tempo training fun, some people may find horsecocking weight fun. Like for me I love to horsecock weight but only like once a month because otherwise I just feel absolutely beat up (although I do completely understand your method of horsecock always to train your CNS to get used to that). Something that's lost as well with a lot of these videos is that they're aimed for more advanced lifters too, so a lot of beginners coming to them and trying all this extra stuff are gonna get confused, when they could just lift weight and still get huge gains. A lot of Dr Mikes stuff as well is aimed to minimise injury risk (hence why you're moving the weight so damn slow). I do think it's import though to not get lost in the analysis too much, I think a mixed approach is best. I mix in both to keep it fun.
Exactly, beginners and intermediates should just lift normally and not overthink it. Slower controlled training is good for lifters who are already very strong or have an injury or are injury prone.
Yeah, they are kind of talking past each other. Eric loves strength, RP loves hypertrophy. I personally switch between both training styles because its fun.
I've trained both ways. When I was my biggest and strongest, and when I felt like I got the most out of my workouts, was when I was horsecocking heavy weights around (with good form). You can't tell me doing 120lbx45 reps single arm db rows for one all out set is not as good as doing the 3x12 with 70s with 3 second contraction and a full stretch. Same with the incline db in this video. Doing heavy 2 second paused explosive reps wiith 100-120lb dbs blew up my pecs and bench strength. Not doing 80s for slow methodical reps. I get that Mike is focusing completely on the bodybuilding perspective utilizing science, but there's a middle ground here like Eric said. Explosiveness through movement is extremely beneficial.
I think there's an actual physiological reason for this. With movements hardest at the peak contraction like any freeweight or cable row or a lateral raise or reverse fly or most leg curl/ext, you wanna horse cock the weight because the momentum will make that pesky top part of the lift, (which massively limits the loads you can handle), easier. You're even-ing out a non-ideal tension curve by horse cocking it.
Dr. Mike advocates an explosive concentric. But the evidence is pretty compelling that the peak contraction isn't as important as the weighted stretch and time spent in the lengthened position. Mechanical tension is clearly important, but can generate similar intramuscular tension if you exaggerate the stretched position using lighter weight than you would normally use with a less significant range of motion. It's just smart training for longevity. It's not strength training, it's about mechanical inefficiency, not technical efficiency for moving the most weight possible. If you want to just ego lift, go ahead. I'm pretty confident that most people won't get the body they want by lifting that way, and they'll have lagging body parts. Also, Eric didn't look remotely like he does now before he started WWE. He's gained like 50 lb. Put two and two together. If you look back at his basement lifting days, he didn't have nearly the muscularity despite being super strong.
The simplest approach would be to do both types of rowing in 1 program. Controlled ecc and paused precise RIR 2 sets vs HORSECOCKING WEIGHT doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, diverse stimuli is ultimately the key.
@@DCJayhawk57 So technically a bigger load even for less applied tension(no pause or just a 1 second pause) would give you a way bigger and more efficient weighted stretch than lower weights with bigger pause and peak contraction. In other words horse cocking huge LOADS will make you jacked faster
I saw Mike O’Hearn do that exact guillotine fly press, and have the science base community mock him for it and say it was dangerous.… Mike o’ Hearn, who easily has one of the most impressive physics for the longest period of time and has kept himself looking healthier than everybody else…. Just because he’s a 55-year-old man who is from a generation of people that lie all about steroid use… Peoples emotions tend to blind them to reality so easily.
Eric makes a super good point around the 14 minute mark. My working weight on bench is about 275lbs. I can only bench 315 for 2, and they are grindy horse cock reps. That said, if I work up to 275 with perfect form and tempo and all this, I get LESS reps than if I grind out 315 for 2, rest, then put 275 back on the bar. I have maximum muscle fiber recruitment, my CNS is primed, and 275 feels LIGHT. There's definitely something to be said for huge strength sets, followed by stricter hypertrophy sets.
Eric got me into lifting a long time ago and Mike has kept me lifting recently. This would be a great collab, they actually have a lot more in common than they think. Also regarding the arch in the back during pressing, this actually does increase the range of motion and stretch in the chest.
I’ve recently watched some of your Jeff Nippard videos as well and here are my two cents. Jeff and the sort of content he produces is like a commercializing of weight lifting. It’s this thing where people are just focusing on results, what’s “most effective” but are disregarding other vital aspects of weight lifting. In reality, weight lifting just like anything else in life will produce the best results when it’s done for its own sake. The experience of going into the gym and just horse cocking a bunch of weight, pushing yourself to the limits and seeing how you continue to get stronger and bigger is something that science and all it’s studies cannot account for. And it is something that is getting lost in the analysis which you are reminding us of. Great videos, grace and peace to you Ricky✌🏻
Thank you Eric! I have been feeling this way for a long time. I was trained with Poliquin, and I absolutely do believe in the training philosophies, but at the end of the day I don't think that it is the be-all and end-all. I haven't trained like that for a while, because it just isn't FUN! After training for a long enough time you just want to freakin enjoy it, and nothing gets that done like banging and clanging some weights however you feel like on the day. Thank you for keeping it real man, it feels like you are the only guy in this industry who really gets it.
Thanks bro! I’d like to think I “get it” after 25 years of lifting trying everything and training balls to the wall be it by my choice or by my coaches forcing me. Great to hear your perspective
The years are slowly catchin up to me and I changed my horsecockin way of training to this typa nonsense. I trained for 3 to 4 months like this. I couldn't get my strength back up, I wasn't have fun at all and I never felt the soreness or the pump like back in the days when I was just throwing shit around. You my man just saved me from going down the very long road of tedium and weakness. I'm going back to horsing around, liftin big ass weights and just having fun. Searching for the huge pump and big boy weights.
Dr. Mike actually has a video specifically talking about balancing form/technique vs effort/going heavy, and it's really good - and Dr. Mike is freaky strong while having huge ROM and technique. old vids of him doing 275x8 strict press
well, your comment are ignored because it's going to refute this video and majority of comment, He's really always emphasis the danger of overemphasis of form, being neurotic and kill the joy of training. Be able to strict press 275 lbs for 8 is elite, and he's not pencil necked to avoid heavy lifting and 'hardcore' shit :D
Dr. Mike and others in his field want you thinking while training. What you're advocating is that sometimes you dont need to think, just exert and perform. I do agree, counting in your while you're handling load will become monotonous and boring over time
This is like someone who said “I played this game, they told me everything to do, and I got bored.” I don’t know exactly why this happens, but I’m the same way. Something about the experience, journey, exploring. The experience is more important than the mechanics I think. If you can bring the experience along with learning the mechanics, all the more power to you.
I spent the better part of two years following Dr Mike, Jeff Nippard, Milo Wolf, Eric Helms and Dr Pak. Stumbling upon Eric "Horsecockin" Bugenhagen has been such a breath of fresh air!
As a pencil neck, I was once giddy for the science based nerd stuff. No gains for a year (also wasn’t consistent cause it wasn’t fun) Started working on SBD and moving weight, starting gaining mass and enjoyed the training
We already do enough things that aren't fun in life so why add another. Why are youtubers trying to suck the enjoyment out of everything. Exactly, if you don't enjoy it you're going to suck at it because the motivation won't be there.
Yeah, I share basically the same critique with a lot this stuff. These little tweaks to form and tempo and this and that, the effect size for benefit here is minuscule, if there even is a benefit at all. And your right, begginners are freaking out with paralysis by analysis and program hopping every couple weeks because of how polluted the fitness space his become with excessive information that isn't really helpful at all. So thank you for this video.
As someone already coined it in the comments of one of your shorts. The moggfather!! Don't have the time to watch this now but youll bet your BUCKETS this will be on the oled later tonight while im eating dinner.
Love both of yall so so much, huge inspirations! I couldn't live without the MINDSET but I do have to say I do really love training the way Dr. Mike recommends and still get so much joy out of it. I really enjoy thinking way too much about certain things and though I am often horrible at deciding between things I have never felt that analysis paralysis really. But I do think you have a good point that beginners would likely be overwhelmed by too much minute details
Eh, seems like a simple misunderstanding here. Eric keeps bringing up strength and this, Dr. Mike's training philosophy, is strictly hypertrophy centric. Also, man everyone has different reasons for enjoying the gym lol. I love boogz and the mindset but don't assume what other people like just based on what you feel. I love benching the way Mike says way more than when I'm strength training, I think it feels way better FOR ME. Maybe I'm too pencil necked but it does sound a little bit like you're knocking RP, but if you say you're not meaning to and give respect on them I'll take that as my fault in interpretation.
Wow. This perfectly explains my lack of want and motivation for going to the gym lately, focusing too much on “form” and “technique” making it extremely boring. I remember when I just went to the gym to smash some fucking weights and felt motivated to go everyday. Thanks man, I’ll do that again.
agreed 100%, once I tried to "optimize" every little thing because sCiEnCe, my training no longer felt enjoyable and my progress plateaued and to be perfectly honest lifting went from being a great way channel my aggression and exert pent up energy from the day to being a tedious chore. I felt like a frickin accountant trying to precisely track every little aspect of the sesh. JUST LIFT HEAVY ASS WEIGHTS BECAUSE THATS WHAT MAKES LIFE WORTH LIVING!!!!!!!
I found that for my pushing movements and leg movements I didn’t get anything from maxing the weight I could move form be damned. For those I’m closer to RP’s style, but still not quite as extreme. My back however exploded when I started horsing big rows and even better when I would max my pull-up weight. I think it’s muscle dependent.
Yep, my best example is with the traps. I argued for years that you should use light dumbbells with controlled form, pauses at the top, etc, without having much evidence of trap growth. Now all of a sudden I have big meaty traps with very little direct work. What built them? Heavy deadlifts and occasional blocks training heavy barbell cheat shrugs with straps. I see ppl looking at me like I’m a moron but damnit if my traps don’t have severe DOMS for 3+ days when i do just 2-3 sets of this shrug + hip thrust hybrid with 315-365 and try and let the weight not totally free-fall.
I agree with both of you here. Training must be enjoyable. You’re right on the money there, Stick. But this “optimal” training, like you mentioned, aids in longevity. That’s why I usually train that way. Moreover, the reason Dr Mike preaches full ROM isn’t only because the stretched portion is super hypertrophic, but also because full ROM is easier to track. You can progressively overload more accurately with full ROM than with partial ROM. But that doesn’t really matter anyway as long as you’re training really hard. Would love to see a collab of you two.
I love Dr. Mike, his knowledge is insane and and he's funny as fuck!! He would be a great collab with you, I would love to see Dr. Mike take you through one of his workouts, that would be insane.
Damn right about being pumped for the gym, nobody has ever felt stoked hitting a one more rep PR on super slow controlled 135. But when you're at the horse cock levels, and your chests about to explode from a 4th rep and you somehow get the 5th. Or just a new 1 rep max, that's when you're excited and looking forward to hitting the gym
Hard disagree. Personally I feel incredibly hyped when I hit a PR with amazing technique and a pause. To each his own but don't assume everyone has the same experience.
@@nothingnothing3947 I'm not talking about a pause and good form PR, those are hype. Maybe wasn't super clear, but was referring to what Eric was talking about in the video. REALLY slow lifts (like 5 seconds down) are difficult and you have to lower your weight a lot, so it is challenging, BUT I just don't think anybody gets hyped for benching 135 pounds 17 times REALLY SLOWLY when their old record was 16. When they could be doing like 315 for 4. or 350 for 1.
@@danielgardner3601problem is a lot of us start entering snap city when we go for crazy heavy PRs like that. Even with all the technique in the world if you’re trying to push the numbers as high as possible there’s just bound to be some shit happen. I’m convinced some people just have better genetics for injury prevention lol and some of us might be better off lightening the load
I've been watching your stuff since you had around 40k subscribers. And I was around during the partial lift drama. Glad to see you still read the comments. Keep it up ! 💪
Eric is the embodiment of physical prowess and passion. While Mike is a scholar that seeks to find truth and strive for perfection. I think beginners would benefit more from the mindset and the passion, gaining a love for the sport. While advanced lifters that already have the passion could benefit from sharpening the saw with the disciplined and analytical approach to take it to the next level. Unfortunately i think the audiences are more or less reversed now. I discovered Eric after almost giving up on training because i felt like the only way forward was hopping on the sauce, i'm glad i didnt.
Yeah, that whole slow and controlled thing can be useful for hypertrophy and for training despite an overstrained nervous system, but it's obvious that if you go with just one or the other approach in the extreme, you will run into trouble. It makes no sense to make yourself as strong as possible in terms of mechanical efficiency all the time - you'll wear yourself out. But if you're doing tempo work and light weights all the time, you'll have insufficient strength. Just lifting normally is a damn good start. I'm an early intermediate and I think this is about the stage where you start needing to adjust this more. I plan on doing my deads relatively light for my strength with no touch & go, one rep at a time, when I'm able to deadlift again (meniscus tear). This is because doing them touch & go and pushing the strength all the time, or doing the higher reps like that, was very fatiguing, and I wanna build up a lot more muscle this time around, and if I only go from 410 to maybe 441 (200 kg) in a bulk of 9-10 months, that's okay. I was so beat up towards the end of the previous big bulk. I'll do similar things for other exercises, perhaps just based on how I feel. But I think the minutia of it does not matter, and it's foolish and missing the point to go all in one direction.
"insufficient strength" is utterlly stupid to say. If all you did was train Dr Mike style of slow and controlled with lighter weights, you'll still be stronger then 99% of the population and not run into trouble in your day to day life of struggling to carry that 40lb bag of dog food inside. Purely strength training has very little carry over to the real world at a point. The guy with a 1400lb total isn't having troubles in generic life that the guy with the 2200lb total isnt. Because that would mean the 99% who don't train and would get under 500 would be screwed, and they're not.
@brandonhoover2120 Also Dr. Mike doesn't advocate tempo work really, and he still lifts heavy. Eric just made a strawman extreme argument that was easy for him to refute because he couldn't be bothered to actually watch the content he was critiquing. Bodybuilding is also not general strength training, it's an aesthetic pursuit. In my mind, there's no reason you can't get strong and be huge. Check out Bald Omni Man as an example. He's focused on hypertrophy but has a background as a strength coach. His numbers are way more impressive than Eric's ego lifting nonsense from his natty days, and he's strong at a variety of movements instead of just heavy pull variations. I feel like Eric is an old man yelling at clouds, he's living in 2016, and he's not coming clean that he's 50 lb heavier now from PEDs, not from his training methodology.
This made me realized that I lost my way in the gym. I used to look forward to my deadlift prs and fuckin rippin the weights got my deadlift up to 450 at 170lbs body weight. NowI’m significantly weaker and do not look forward to the gym. Gettin back on track tomorrow
I never get sore doing cheat curls and just had a workout doing strict slow and controlled curls and my biceps have probably never been more sore in my life
19:37 Bugez you nail easily one of my favourite bits of advice in youtube lifting land. Being able to handle your own weights from the rack, to the bench, up for the lift and back again is the simplest yet most earnest thing we can do to get strong. You're a godsend Bugez.
You are 100% right. Most guys who aren't getting results are because of a lack of intensity and focus. Trying to overanalyze everything to a point of using super light weight isn't going to help that guy at all.
Man if this is how in depth they are going on freaking dumbbell press and dips, imagine them trying to comprehend the insanity of Olympic Weightlifting 😂😂
I've never seen an objectively strong dude that was small. Conversley, I've never seen an objectively big dude that was weak. Moral of the story, you need to get strong if you want to be big.
It's way easier to get strong when you're already stacked with muscle than it is to get huge when you're already strong. It's really not a difficult concept to understand
Well the folks who train for strength competitively always had a dedicated hypertrophy phase in their training, since you gotta add more muscle in order to get stuff to work with.
Dr Mike just has practical advice, don’t think its rocket science at all. By all means throw weight around but if you’re going to put all that work in might as well make the most out of it. Even Mike says by all means do it your way with reasonable form but if you do it this ways it’s better for gains. If it’s more fun for you to throw weight around than by all means have at it. No judgment either way. RP’s emphasis is on the stimulus to fatigue ratio and stretch mediated hypertrophy. If you’re into that style of training than Dr Mikes style will do.
Your reaction is so familiar to me. Especially in work environnements. I would recommend applying a certain method of action. You do your research so you know what you’re doing, and can logically explain the reasons for doing it. I call this the work up, or prep. This is where it’s important to do this “nerd talk”. But once it’s time for action they don’t do this talking. Since this is this guys first session with RP, and they’re sort of taking him through it. Explaining why and what. He his a reliable Dr. In this shit so he’s a very important and necessary voice and content form to have. Not to say your critics are not valid. I’m just fighting for the principal that implores you to do som work up prior to executing something you want to be good at. Not that you never do this I’m just for the first time seeing you cover something rather then your shorts of you going hard as MFK, or being funny. Love the content!
I watch both of you. And it was the passion, excitment and odd lifts you showed me that got me into strength training 6 years ago. But over the last 3 years watching RP that ive focused on pause reps, the stretch, full ROM and machines that helped me grow. He brings the knowledge behind hypertrophy, while you bring the mindset and intensity behind strength. And i combine them. Hes not beginner level. His partner, jared, is a pro bb because of those methods. You guys agree more than you disagree. You should watch more of his videos where he trains pros.
I feel like this video is a great reminder to actually be proud of your workouts and what you can do, and not get too concerned with technique or what is healthier for your joints etc... HORSECOCKING some fkn weight with ABSOLUTE FORCE is the BEST way of maintaining motivation, consistency and enthusiasm for the gym and I love that the BUGEZ CRUIZ is a youtuber that preaches this to the masses
Mike prefers to arch on bench because it’s safer on the shoulders and pre stretches the pecs. so maybe you get more range of motion laying flat but if you arch you get way more stretch. the weight is less than you would think because it’s a hypertrophy workout, not a strength workout. he’ll make you use only as much weight as you need to get a good rep range and good sfr. you make a really good argument on the fun of it but he’s training hardcore athletes so they probably find fun in the challenge. sorry for being a nerd Sticky Ricky just felt like backing up the form monster under your bed
I also arch to protect my shoulders, just thought it was interesting since max ROM was the goal. Again, I’m not hating on the “form monster”, just don’t think it’s the best way to train but I get bodybuilders are susceptible to injury and don’t care about strength
you’re just giving your two cents, no harm in doing that. nowadays the discussion is lengthened partials vs full rom. recent studies and stuff have shown that lengthened partials might be just as good as full rom. going back to the bench press point, maybe laying flat gives you a little more rom on the movement as a whole but you would be losing out on more rom on your chest specifically because arching already stretches your pecs. basically arching your back when benching most of the time is going to be better than laying flat, as long as you’re doing a normal arch that’s not super weird. Mike still loves max rom don’t get me wrong, if you watch his video talking about the best chest exercise in the world he talks about camber bar bench press specifically because of the larger rom and better stretch of the pecs. i hope you get to collab with him that video would be awesome and he could explain why he trains like he does way better than i could
@@dante6806 you travel the same amount but you started already stretched so you stretch more. maybe you can make the bar travel more because your shoulders won’t hurt
This is kinda the conclusion I've come to after training this way for a few months, lately I've been going to the gym and just thinking about having my form somewhere in between a Doctor mike rep and powerlifting rep and I think that type of training is going to suit most people the best for size and strength. I think his stuff is great for isolations like doing cable curls with that tempo and the stretch feels absolutely insane but I tried it on ohp one time and was doing like 90lbs for 10 I just wanted to die. I think the answer is in the name really "Renaissance Periodization" the training works for mike because he periodizes his training and in doing this making sure that his progression is on point which is really the only determining factor. Most people don't want or even need to do this and would do much better with a simple rep goal system which is hard to implement if your very pedantic about your form, exactly like your saying. Basically the problem with mike's advice isn't that it's wrong it's just hitting the wrong demographic.
I think the tempo type training is excellent if you’re rehabbing an injury or if you’re already very strong and lifting lighter like this helps keep you healthy or improves your recovery. If you’re not advanced then you should just training normally.
Man Boogz, somehow you managed to say a whole lot without really saying anything and yet you've articulated all of my gripes with what other peopls ideas and things theyve been led to believe That there is no substitute for heavy training
Eric: "Let me add my 2 cents to this". Also Eric: showers everyone with dollar bills while riding on a big beautiful white stallion and pressing overhead a heavy freaking dumbbell.
One of my favorite big bulbous boogs vid. Love that mindset. Gotta stop thinking lifting heavy and explosively is ego lifting. It’s just a way to get strong, athletic, fast. I tried both for years and I can 100% say that both have their place, but for me personally, lifting heavy metal discs as fast as I can (while having complete control of the movement) is the way. Love you Boogy❤
This gave me an AHA moment: Bugez is the modern equivalent of Brooks Kubik. Brooks made his mark pointing out all the bullshit antics of gymgoers in his time doing everything to look better except trying to get STRONGER.
Just my 2 cents. I really enjoy Dr Mike’s content and he’s obviously a very smart gentleman quite jacked himself. Just sparking an open forum on if we as a society are starting to become EXTREMELY obsessive with all the pencil neck details
He's a "focus on the trees" kind of guy. You're an "I AM THE FOREST" man. There's room for both. The pencil necks need both guides.
@@alexschutz7283Dude you put it perfectly with that analogy. 👏
@@alexschutz7283excellent metaphor
I agree. I have always said getting strong is not the same as lifting maximally. Form is over rated aside from keeping you safe.
bodybuilders perhaps do not need to progress with heavier weights to keep their training interesting because they get the same fulfillment with progressing with their physiques and competing.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 start
15:22 starting to lose it
32:25 end
Bwaaahh!!
That's pretty much how it went, wasn't it!
😄
so im not even at the part he started to lose it yet?
huh?
LMFAO😂
🤣🤣
Holy shit, you speed up Mike and raise the pitch of his voice, he sounds exactly like Jeff Nippard.
Hahahahaha
My favorite part was when Bugez got bored listening to Dr Mike’s science and started flexing into the camera. That summed up the whole video 😂
absolute horse
He does that quite often lol
"this is some fair freakin use here boiz" is my new favourite legal defense
That was peak legal defense
Your honour, permission to call the jury “boiz"?
@@johnyoutube4073lmao
Bugez, You've taught me the most important part - that training should be enjoyable. You gotta wanna do it. Thanks for that man.
I really hate that this community of folks lifting is getting away from that. I actually was a technique bro for a while and realized it was killing my workouts. I had to stop because the fun died with it. Unless you are a pro bodybuilder where it's your literal job to get jacked working out should be a fun thing 95 percent of the time, or you won't stick to it.
@@Madchris8828 Even when you want to be as jacked as possible, why not have fun. YOLO. Does Sam Sulek care what nerds think of his form? I don't think so.
I kind of hate my workouts because I'm pushing myself. But that's fun also.
@@jprice_ I agree overall, my point was thought that most pros talk about how they don't enjoy like 20 percent of their workouts. As I said though it's their job lol
@@jprice_ Even if you wanted to get as big as possible doing things you enjoy will make it so much easier to really push progression
Dr.Mike and buggz on an collab that would be something else
Imagine Mike trying to train the bugez while he's screaming like a maniac deadlifting 900 pounds lol
The Stick will be singing a different tune.
@@vainbow4632I need it so bad baby
I don’t find Dr mikes advice to be rocket science at all. He’s very straight forward and simple with his ques. I found his instructions to not only work better but are a lot more enjoyable and stimulative. It’s fine if you want to throw weight around, more power to you but if you’re going to use all your time and energy to do hard work you might as well get the most out of it. As Mike has said many times, it’s fine if you want to perform an exercise a particular way but if you want MORE out of it then do it this way. Beginners and experts alike can gain a lot from his training. There’s some form experts that are useless, I’ll give you that, Dr Mike on the other hand is very practical.
@@kadaj7269 and that's why i think it would be very fun to watch a debate and a workout with buggz and dr. mike, because I agree with you, they both know what they are doing clearly it would just be good to listen what they got to say about each other
You're wider from the side than most people are from the front. Morphing into the Glog. Much respect.
The chook
its all lighting and angles. I saw him irl and he wasn't much bigger than that strength coach jason blaha. Total fraud
@@IgnatiusCheese I am new to this channel. I keep seeing chook in some comments. What does this mean?
This guy's arms were making me feel so small
Steroids are amazing aren’t they
This is perfect - exactly how I feel. I used to HATE training for college sports, super regimented, it feel like clocking in to work...nowadays I just blare the tunes and get after it. I stay consistent and go hard because I enjoy training and I'm bigger than I've ever been. TOP CHOOK OR NOTHING.
Couldn’t agree more. Exact same scenario for me
What sport u played
@@ericbugenhagenOfficial All the pencil necks be like: "HUUUUGE CHEST!!"
Same page as yall! I’ve put on 40lb since being a d1 swimmer, starting to look succulent for the first time in my life
Just hit 1300lb total @ 175lb. Just wanted to say thanks for being one my main source of youtube fitness inspiration and motivating me and to train with intensity. MINDSET!
Great job. 👍
Impressive
200lb bench
300lb deadlift
800lb squat
@@Madchris8828 thanks!
@@colinmoriarty ty!
This is a crazy triangle as I watch Alex, Bugez and Dr. Mike. Almost like a weird collab all at once. Excited to see what Eric has to say as the super brolord 9000. Lets go!
The "stimulus to fatigue" meets "maxing out twice a week" collab (alex is both, somehow)
The best gains I have ever seen and the best feeling in the gym was actually going in and aiming to HORSECOCK as much weight as possible with relatively good form - Something in the 70% goodform 30% TOPCHOOK THROWS IRON range - Partials, complete failure - Less focusing on the tiny details more just about getting in there and SHIFTING TIN. Most fun and best pumps i've had in a long time
🐴 🐓💪🏽
What rep range do you stay in?
@TylerBaker-ky7rp a minimum of 6/8 with "good" form - and then at least another 5 with "questionable" form
Depends on how I'm feeling on the day yknow but the goal is always to LOAD UP the intensity no matter what.
@@buzzy5224 I’ve been working up to a heavy double and love it.
@TylerBaker-ky7rp hell yeah brother keep pushing - doesn't matter what range you're hitting as long as you're trying to move large tin and pushing yourself hard.
Occasionally I'll go for huge singles/doubles to push myself beyond but I find i get more intensity out of higher rep ranges, that's just me though!
Keep it up brother!
Middle of the two ideologies is the perfect mix. Love training "aiming for perfection" and the feeling of the RP style, but can't take the fun out of it if you personally don't enjoy it. Throw some heavy ass weight around every now and then and enjoy the process.
ALSO, the RP style of training is actually the most enjoyable type of training I've gotten into. It gives other metrics to try and gauge progress, and pushing the sets to be extremely difficult for other reasons than just weight or reps. I don't have bad training days when I'm focused on keeping the reps consistent, if I have a weight in mind during power lifting prep and miss it, it can ruin the workout for me. Above points still stand that you need a healthy medium.
Good point about missing a weight ruining your day…I think most of us can agree on that haha
Yeah I think you can expand your frame of reference to appreciate increases in performance other than surface level “ape ego” (not trying to be derogatory, we all have it and need to know its place). And people should probably lift in a way that it’s JUST fun enough to be consistent.
I used to use a note pad, got strong af lifting without counting temp but lifted with control… grew to become one of the biggest guys at my rec center and as soon as i shifted to trying fads like longer temp vs 1-2sec down, and things like keto for more energy, it all went to sh!t.
@@jmass4207 Performance when it comes to slow reps and "better form", that seems pointless at worst, very inferior to more weight or reps at best.
Strength is the only true variable you can use to measure progress, the other stuff is just means to increase it or just increases endurance or adaptation to that weird slow motion tempo.
Bugez, I'm 100% a pencil neck and you are absolutely right with "paralysis from analysis" I have done so many body weight workouts and I always end up quitting simply because I always over analyze the tempo and then disappoint myself, I got little weight to use so I can't lift heavy unfortunately, I'm thinking of saving up for a good quality sand bag and using that to move some weight
Yeah please don't get stuck in that mindset. I did that for a year and literally got no gains. Don't be like me that year 😂
24-32kg kettlebell is enough to get you out of the pencil neck status while never leaving your home. I like to log every rep done, stacking up those numbers can be motivating and before you know, numbers will turn into solid muscle.
How To: DIY Concrete Dumbbells Made to Last
th-cam.com/video/9DwRWSahCIU/w-d-xo.html
Remember, after the long speech you give yourself, always end with: "now stfu and lift."
It will solve that analysis paralysis problem.
bro planet shitness is 10 bucks use it
Buggs and Dr. Mike should do a collab for a month or two where Buggs follows strict RP training regimen, while Dr.Mike does whatever bro science stuff Buggs tells him to do 😁
There's no way Mike would risk the injury, there's no way Eric would stay strict that long. Love the idea tho
Yeah....how'bout noooo....
That would absolutely cause a rupture in the fabric of reality itself.
I'd rather have the time-space continuum remain intact.
#FrFr
#Science
@@rockyevans1584no shot Dr. Mike drinks a gallon of milk a day or posts raw onion eating fails either. Doesn’t have the mindset.
Dr Mike would not last in the rats nest
Dr Mike with the fanny pack of fig bars is a funny thought lmao
My big thing was being hampered by my joints which are ground down and fucked up from years of abuse. Finally started feeling better and making progress when I started tuning in to RP's content & dialing in on a more methodical program. If you're young and/or free from injuries, move weights and get bigger however you most enjoy, but, at least in my case, Dr. Mike's approach seems to be the way to keep going for the long haul.
That's the whole idea too.
Dr Mike n Jeff Nippard n everyone like them all promote some of the fun stuff of bro lifting. Even science discoveries support some of these things (half reps, cheat reps -> to get eccentric, drop sets, etc).
The way they go about it is via a controlled, safe, measurable environment. Its all good stuff that everyone loves, but safer 😂
Very glad to see this critique. Many things are over-intellectualized in this day and age, even such a practical thing as lifting. Of course you need to be SMART to make training progress as well but a little (un)common sense goes a long way. You will always learn more by just doing the thing in the gym than from watching Dr Mike videos which, as you point out, might lead to paralysis by analysis. Completely agree that this is the approach coaches and trainers take when they want to make the client feel as they don't have any idea of how to do things and need the trainer/coach. KEEP IT SIMPLE fellas
If anyone finds RP content "over-intellectualized", they're likely just be dumb 🤷♂️
I really enjoy these broscientist breakdowns. Leave it to boogs to make original content in so many forms. Who cares if you lose some subs by deviating from your normal content, the real ones will be entertained. The suckers assumed incorrectly. You're growing a whole garden of knowledge here boogs (also when do we get Florida gardening videos? Growing garlic takes 9 months but don't be discouraged. Maybe start with kale, it would be perennial in FL and you get infinite purple kale forever you'll turn purple like Thanos)
Haha I am actually growing broccoli, cauliflower, and celery plus a plethora of herbs
Love to hear it!!!@@ericbugenhagenOfficial
@@ericbugenhagenOfficialOh man some Bugez gardening content would be incredible
Look how I got ratio'd by Bugez response lmfao@@sparky72
@@ericbugenhagenOfficial Please Eric, I want to see you shoveling dirt and picking up broccoli wearing outrageous hats.
Bugez you are the single biggest influence to me and my training. You keep it straight forward and pragmatic and more importantly you keep it fun.
It's time for making a Collab with Alex Leonidas considering the lore between you hahahaha .
Alex used to be cringe but these days he’s alright
@@FloridaManGraham so true and it make sense he was making videos since he was 22 or something now he is 30.
what happened between them? I know Alex was cringe, but is there more to it?
@@FloridaManGraham yeah which makes total sense. He was genuinely a young guy with a huge audience that he wasn’t mature enough to properly manage. As he’s grown up and matured, he’s found his own path.
@@FullRangeOfMotion7Alex left behind all his goofy lifts (e.g. banded Z press, above knee rack pulls) and now spends all his training mastering fundamental exercises.
These days I think his only odd lifts are those chest expander exercises.
All these guys who preach about slow and controlled reps are already established lifters. They got their powerlifting trophies (Greg Doucette) or their body building careers are already over and they're just trying to keep their mass (Flex Lewis). They have the gaul to tell all these young guys not to do things how they did them; not to push themselves too hard or not to take risks, when they themselves got to where they are because of those things in the first place. They haven't just forgotten where they came from; they've forgotten what it's like to have a young man's heart.
Well said bro
Was just thinking the same thing. People are going to do this stuff because they see how big these guys are and think it's this training that got them there when in reality it's completely not.
exactly, the new guys get all so bogled down in "muh science workout" "muh ROM" etc. that they end up just staying in the same place forever. I'm not saying good form isn't bad because it absolutely isn't, but man, if tweaking your form to your liking while still being safe helps you move more weight then do that shit instead of some weird ass stiff like movement. If Arnold cheated reps in his day then why the fuck can't we?
Pls do more of these. Watched the whole way through.😂
I find deep stretch, slow eccentrics, bodybuilding style training extremely fun. I'd say I lean more on agreeing with Mike's 'optimal' training, especially for beginners/intermediates. I reckon that year of tempo training helped you refine form and fortify joints so that when you did go nuts you were in a stronger position to train that way. But one thing is for sure, the raw passion and authenticity that flows from Eric is ispiring as hell. I feel like roaring like a cave man and maxing out on weighted dips!! If this chanel had any more testosterone, It'd be banned as a PED.
my joints got fucked from too much horsecocking when I was younger, now I pretty much do RP style training and it works and actually feels therapeutic often. of course I will get back to limited horsecocking from time to time when my shit feels better, which it mostly does now. I do really like the feeling of a slow eccentric and I don't particularly care about numbers as much anymore, although maybe I will when I get back into it
As long as you’re bumping up the weight and/or volume over time, you can grow with slow controlled .
Hey look, if you enjoy it then more power too you. If I had to train like that, I wouldn't train, it's so dull. I don't wanna be stuck lifting 1-2 plates on bench for 10 years. If I train RP style then I have to virtually revert back to my 1st year of training and I just won't train if I have to go back on 9 years of progress just cause I can't do more than 80kg for 3x10 5 sec eccentric pause bench focusing on contraction.
I wanna throw around 180 on bench and 270 on dead cause it's just fun, the point of me training is to be able to lift heavy shit and if I can't then I don't wanna out the effort in.
@@MeowMateeThe method is arguably superior for growth. But not strength.
@@cx2900I see many teenagers in my gym doing the same. 1RM PRs every session. Young male ego causes havoc, older and wiser male rebuilds 😂
Id literally pay money for a Bugez x Dr. Mike Collab
Dude! I first found about your channel years ago because of Alpha Destiny. Takes me back.
Do a peak week leg day with Mike!
The amount of "Holy buckets" we'd hear would set a new record.
might be your funniest video yet! Laugh so much love the new content
Glad you enjoyed brother
I disagree when you say that working out like RP feels "like a chore", personally i actually find it really fun, i do however completely agree that without the occasional "just put the biggest goddam weight on it and go hard" is necessary to feel alive, the goal of these videos of course, is to get you two to collab because i love you both dads please dont fight
How in the fuck am i only finding your content now bro🤦😭 THANK THE IRON GAWDS for you Bugez💪🏽💪🏽💯💯🤌 So tired of the dork shit. Overanalyzing absolutely takes the joy out of body building!! Definitely subscribing!
I think there is some validity to what you're saying, obviously this is very specialised training since they're focusing entirely on building muscle not strength or anything. I think most people view lifting on a spectrum from full ego bro style lifting to very technical science lifting but honestly I think you can take some aspects of both since there are pros and cons to each. I train with genuinely pretty good form but I push fucking hard and I am always pushing up the reps or weight every single workout which I think most people should do.
The optimal stuff that mike is talking about is probably most beneficial if you're an advanced lifter and you are entirely focused on bodybuilding, for the average gym goer you should just focus more on pushing up the weight and reps and as long as your form is decent at a minimum you will probably be fine. But with bodybuilding I don't think the weight matters too much since you can get big from using pretty light weights which is what I think they're going for, in terms of lifting for the average person it is definitely more important to push the strength, you shouldn't train like some top olympia guy who is 300 pounds shredded lol just fucking bench some heavy weight.
@eee_d888 couldn’t have said it better myself. Dr. Mike focuses purely on the muscle building aspect of lifting. Eric is making an argument for strength building techniques. Both of them are correct in their methods. I feel like Dr. Mike needs to clarify more often that his methods are specifically designed for muscle growth rather than strength.
Building muscle will increase strength. If you want to powerlift though, train to peak for a meet or 1RM. Pumping out and using wild form probably won’t be much a part of that program though…
Bugez about to put my slippers on stoke up the fire and slap this video on the big screen
So a few things since I watch both of your channels a fair amount:
RP is from a primary bodybuilding focus, not for anything like powerlifting. Hence why it's always super controlled and no horse cocking (like you said it doesn't train CNS, since this is primarily for bodybuilding).
The Dr Mike Criticises celebrity workouts are tbh mainly playing youtube algorithm, overly critical.
Something that he has reiterated in some of his other videos, like you were saying with the tempo training stuff, is do what feels fun FOR YOU. Some people may find tempo training fun, some people may find horsecocking weight fun. Like for me I love to horsecock weight but only like once a month because otherwise I just feel absolutely beat up (although I do completely understand your method of horsecock always to train your CNS to get used to that).
Something that's lost as well with a lot of these videos is that they're aimed for more advanced lifters too, so a lot of beginners coming to them and trying all this extra stuff are gonna get confused, when they could just lift weight and still get huge gains. A lot of Dr Mikes stuff as well is aimed to minimise injury risk (hence why you're moving the weight so damn slow). I do think it's import though to not get lost in the analysis too much, I think a mixed approach is best. I mix in both to keep it fun.
Exactly, beginners and intermediates should just lift normally and not overthink it. Slower controlled training is good for lifters who are already very strong or have an injury or are injury prone.
Yeah, they are kind of talking past each other. Eric loves strength, RP loves hypertrophy. I personally switch between both training styles because its fun.
I've trained both ways. When I was my biggest and strongest, and when I felt like I got the most out of my workouts, was when I was horsecocking heavy weights around (with good form). You can't tell me doing 120lbx45 reps single arm db rows for one all out set is not as good as doing the 3x12 with 70s with 3 second contraction and a full stretch. Same with the incline db in this video. Doing heavy 2 second paused explosive reps wiith 100-120lb dbs blew up my pecs and bench strength. Not doing 80s for slow methodical reps.
I get that Mike is focusing completely on the bodybuilding perspective utilizing science, but there's a middle ground here like Eric said. Explosiveness through movement is extremely beneficial.
I think there's an actual physiological reason for this. With movements hardest at the peak contraction like any freeweight or cable row or a lateral raise or reverse fly or most leg curl/ext, you wanna horse cock the weight because the momentum will make that pesky top part of the lift, (which massively limits the loads you can handle), easier. You're even-ing out a non-ideal tension curve by horse cocking it.
Dr. Mike advocates an explosive concentric. But the evidence is pretty compelling that the peak contraction isn't as important as the weighted stretch and time spent in the lengthened position. Mechanical tension is clearly important, but can generate similar intramuscular tension if you exaggerate the stretched position using lighter weight than you would normally use with a less significant range of motion.
It's just smart training for longevity. It's not strength training, it's about mechanical inefficiency, not technical efficiency for moving the most weight possible.
If you want to just ego lift, go ahead. I'm pretty confident that most people won't get the body they want by lifting that way, and they'll have lagging body parts.
Also, Eric didn't look remotely like he does now before he started WWE. He's gained like 50 lb. Put two and two together. If you look back at his basement lifting days, he didn't have nearly the muscularity despite being super strong.
The simplest approach would be to do both types of rowing in 1 program. Controlled ecc and paused precise RIR 2 sets vs HORSECOCKING WEIGHT doesn't have to be mutually exclusive, diverse stimuli is ultimately the key.
@@DCJayhawk57 So technically a bigger load even for less applied tension(no pause or just a 1 second pause) would give you a way bigger and more efficient weighted stretch than lower weights with bigger pause and peak contraction. In other words horse cocking huge LOADS will make you jacked faster
actually they can tell you that. There’s a shit ton of supporting data
I saw Mike O’Hearn do that exact guillotine fly press, and have the science base community mock him for it and say it was dangerous.… Mike
o’ Hearn, who easily has one of the most impressive physics
for the longest period of time and has kept himself looking healthier than everybody else…. Just because he’s a 55-year-old man who is from a generation of people that lie all about steroid use… Peoples emotions tend to blind them to reality so easily.
This was needed to be said! You are doing gods work, sir!👏🙏
Eric makes a super good point around the 14 minute mark. My working weight on bench is about 275lbs. I can only bench 315 for 2, and they are grindy horse cock reps. That said, if I work up to 275 with perfect form and tempo and all this, I get LESS reps than if I grind out 315 for 2, rest, then put 275 back on the bar. I have maximum muscle fiber recruitment, my CNS is primed, and 275 feels LIGHT. There's definitely something to be said for huge strength sets, followed by stricter hypertrophy sets.
Eric got me into lifting a long time ago and Mike has kept me lifting recently. This would be a great collab, they actually have a lot more in common than they think.
Also regarding the arch in the back during pressing, this actually does increase the range of motion and stretch in the chest.
Goddamn... You just set the record straight about what I have been observing all the time... thanks for confirming!
Honest to god foos at the gym make more gains having fun with their training and eating in a surplus cause you’re less stressed overall
depends on everyones mindset. Do what can keep you stay consistent.
I’ve recently watched some of your Jeff Nippard videos as well and here are my two cents. Jeff and the sort of content he produces is like a commercializing of weight lifting. It’s this thing where people are just focusing on results, what’s “most effective” but are disregarding other vital aspects of weight lifting.
In reality, weight lifting just like anything else in life will produce the best results when it’s done for its own sake. The experience of going into the gym and just horse cocking a bunch of weight, pushing yourself to the limits and seeing how you continue to get stronger and bigger is something that science and all it’s studies cannot account for. And it is something that is getting lost in the analysis which you are reminding us of. Great videos, grace and peace to you Ricky✌🏻
Thank you Eric! I have been feeling this way for a long time. I was trained with Poliquin, and I absolutely do believe in the training philosophies, but at the end of the day I don't think that it is the be-all and end-all. I haven't trained like that for a while, because it just isn't FUN! After training for a long enough time you just want to freakin enjoy it, and nothing gets that done like banging and clanging some weights however you feel like on the day. Thank you for keeping it real man, it feels like you are the only guy in this industry who really gets it.
Thanks bro! I’d like to think I “get it” after 25 years of lifting trying everything and training balls to the wall be it by my choice or by my coaches forcing me. Great to hear your perspective
That could definitely do it! You have a great mindset man, never lose it. I appreciate you taking the time to reply @@ericbugenhagenOfficial
The years are slowly catchin up to me and I changed my horsecockin way of training to this typa nonsense. I trained for 3 to 4 months like this. I couldn't get my strength back up, I wasn't have fun at all and I never felt the soreness or the pump like back in the days when I was just throwing shit around. You my man just saved me from going down the very long road of tedium and weakness. I'm going back to horsing around, liftin big ass weights and just having fun. Searching for the huge pump and big boy weights.
Dr. Mike actually has a video specifically talking about balancing form/technique vs effort/going heavy, and it's really good - and Dr. Mike is freaky strong while having huge ROM and technique. old vids of him doing 275x8 strict press
well, your comment are ignored because it's going to refute this video and majority of comment, He's really always emphasis the danger of overemphasis of form, being neurotic and kill the joy of training. Be able to strict press 275 lbs for 8 is elite, and he's not pencil necked to avoid heavy lifting and 'hardcore' shit :D
Dr. Mike and others in his field want you thinking while training. What you're advocating is that sometimes you dont need to think, just exert and perform. I do agree, counting in your while you're handling load will become monotonous and boring over time
This is like someone who said “I played this game, they told me everything to do, and I got bored.” I don’t know exactly why this happens, but I’m the same way. Something about the experience, journey, exploring. The experience is more important than the mechanics I think. If you can bring the experience along with learning the mechanics, all the more power to you.
"Why not do both?"
- Buges, 2023
Lifting wisdom for the ages right there.
using muscle isolation and tempo slowing techniques, i was able to get my bench from 2 plates down to 1. now my joints are safe.
I spent the better part of two years following Dr Mike, Jeff Nippard, Milo Wolf, Eric Helms and Dr Pak. Stumbling upon Eric "Horsecockin" Bugenhagen has been such a breath of fresh air!
As a pencil neck, I was once giddy for the science based nerd stuff. No gains for a year (also wasn’t consistent cause it wasn’t fun) Started working on SBD and moving weight, starting gaining mass and enjoyed the training
What is SBD?
@@HeyJerry55Squat,Bench,Deadlifts
@@jabrony6786 Ah I’ve always wondered why the company SBD is called SBD, thanks haha
We already do enough things that aren't fun in life so why add another. Why are youtubers trying to suck the enjoyment out of everything. Exactly, if you don't enjoy it you're going to suck at it because the motivation won't be there.
Bro can you does these more often this is hilarious
Yeah, I share basically the same critique with a lot this stuff. These little tweaks to form and tempo and this and that, the effect size for benefit here is minuscule, if there even is a benefit at all. And your right, begginners are freaking out with paralysis by analysis and program hopping every couple weeks because of how polluted the fitness space his become with excessive information that isn't really helpful at all. So thank you for this video.
As someone already coined it in the comments of one of your shorts. The moggfather!! Don't have the time to watch this now but youll bet your BUCKETS this will be on the oled later tonight while im eating dinner.
PROFESSOR MASS BACK AT IT AGAIN
I think Eric is doing these videos for cardio... He gets so invested that he's literally winded by the end. SMART!!! :D
The mogging session at 10:27 while mike yaps off makes the vid
Love both of yall so so much, huge inspirations! I couldn't live without the MINDSET but I do have to say I do really love training the way Dr. Mike recommends and still get so much joy out of it. I really enjoy thinking way too much about certain things and though I am often horrible at deciding between things I have never felt that analysis paralysis really. But I do think you have a good point that beginners would likely be overwhelmed by too much minute details
Eh, seems like a simple misunderstanding here. Eric keeps bringing up strength and this, Dr. Mike's training philosophy, is strictly hypertrophy centric. Also, man everyone has different reasons for enjoying the gym lol. I love boogz and the mindset but don't assume what other people like just based on what you feel. I love benching the way Mike says way more than when I'm strength training, I think it feels way better FOR ME.
Maybe I'm too pencil necked but it does sound a little bit like you're knocking RP, but if you say you're not meaning to and give respect on them I'll take that as my fault in interpretation.
Wow. This perfectly explains my lack of want and motivation for going to the gym lately, focusing too much on “form” and “technique” making it extremely boring. I remember when I just went to the gym to smash some fucking weights and felt motivated to go everyday. Thanks man, I’ll do that again.
agreed 100%, once I tried to "optimize" every little thing because sCiEnCe, my training no longer felt enjoyable and my progress plateaued and to be perfectly honest lifting went from being a great way channel my aggression and exert pent up energy from the day to being a tedious chore. I felt like a frickin accountant trying to precisely track every little aspect of the sesh. JUST LIFT HEAVY ASS WEIGHTS BECAUSE THATS WHAT MAKES LIFE WORTH LIVING!!!!!!!
After following RP’s philosophy on weight lifting for 2 years, this is the best and most fun video I’ve seen on this topic in a while.
I found that for my pushing movements and leg movements I didn’t get anything from maxing the weight I could move form be damned. For those I’m closer to RP’s style, but still not quite as extreme. My back however exploded when I started horsing big rows and even better when I would max my pull-up weight. I think it’s muscle dependent.
Concept of resistance curves. Back exercises are hardest where it's the most useless. All of the tension is by the start position.
Interesting, I started horse cocking and found the same thing. Rows been exploding but push kinda underwhelming
@@nitricpumpsrows are for horse cocking
Yep, my best example is with the traps. I argued for years that you should use light dumbbells with controlled form, pauses at the top, etc, without having much evidence of trap growth. Now all of a sudden I have big meaty traps with very little direct work. What built them? Heavy deadlifts and occasional blocks training heavy barbell cheat shrugs with straps. I see ppl looking at me like I’m a moron but damnit if my traps don’t have severe DOMS for 3+ days when i do just 2-3 sets of this shrug + hip thrust hybrid with 315-365 and try and let the weight not totally free-fall.
“Look at this guy. He’s weak.. He’s weak!” Lmao
I agree with both of you here. Training must be enjoyable. You’re right on the money there, Stick.
But this “optimal” training, like you mentioned, aids in longevity. That’s why I usually train that way. Moreover, the reason Dr Mike preaches full ROM isn’t only because the stretched portion is super hypertrophic, but also because full ROM is easier to track. You can progressively overload more accurately with full ROM than with partial ROM. But that doesn’t really matter anyway as long as you’re training really hard.
Would love to see a collab of you two.
@FredericoFontelonga fair. Moving big weights with full ROM is really the ideal
I love Dr. Mike, his knowledge is insane and and he's funny as fuck!! He would be a great collab with you, I would love to see Dr. Mike take you through one of his workouts, that would be insane.
Damn right about being pumped for the gym, nobody has ever felt stoked hitting a one more rep PR on super slow controlled 135. But when you're at the horse cock levels, and your chests about to explode from a 4th rep and you somehow get the 5th. Or just a new 1 rep max, that's when you're excited and looking forward to hitting the gym
Hard disagree. Personally I feel incredibly hyped when I hit a PR with amazing technique and a pause. To each his own but don't assume everyone has the same experience.
@@nothingnothing3947 I'm not talking about a pause and good form PR, those are hype. Maybe wasn't super clear, but was referring to what Eric was talking about in the video. REALLY slow lifts (like 5 seconds down) are difficult and you have to lower your weight a lot, so it is challenging, BUT I just don't think anybody gets hyped for benching 135 pounds 17 times REALLY SLOWLY when their old record was 16. When they could be doing like 315 for 4. or 350 for 1.
@@danielgardner3601problem is a lot of us start entering snap city when we go for crazy heavy PRs like that. Even with all the technique in the world if you’re trying to push the numbers as high as possible there’s just bound to be some shit happen. I’m convinced some people just have better genetics for injury prevention lol and some of us might be better off lightening the load
Exactly, how am I supposed to channel the energy of my ancestors going super slow with super light weight
@@nothingnothing3947 johhny 1pl8
I've been watching your stuff since you had around 40k subscribers. And I was around during the partial lift drama. Glad to see you still read the comments. Keep it up ! 💪
1:25 back latspread wider than a 70 inch monitor
This is gold here dude, you need to more of these.
Eric is the embodiment of physical prowess and passion. While Mike is a scholar that seeks to find truth and strive for perfection.
I think beginners would benefit more from the mindset and the passion, gaining a love for the sport. While advanced lifters that already have the passion could benefit from sharpening the saw with the disciplined and analytical approach to take it to the next level.
Unfortunately i think the audiences are more or less reversed now. I discovered Eric after almost giving up on training because i felt like the only way forward was hopping on the sauce, i'm glad i didnt.
Yeahh you should look into Dr. Mikes background if you for some reason don’t think he has passion or isn’t a physical specimen himself 😂
OLD SCHOOL RICK BREAKING IT DOWN WITH THE REALNESS, THIS IS WHAT MADE YOU!!!! LOVE IT
Yeah, that whole slow and controlled thing can be useful for hypertrophy and for training despite an overstrained nervous system, but it's obvious that if you go with just one or the other approach in the extreme, you will run into trouble. It makes no sense to make yourself as strong as possible in terms of mechanical efficiency all the time - you'll wear yourself out. But if you're doing tempo work and light weights all the time, you'll have insufficient strength. Just lifting normally is a damn good start. I'm an early intermediate and I think this is about the stage where you start needing to adjust this more. I plan on doing my deads relatively light for my strength with no touch & go, one rep at a time, when I'm able to deadlift again (meniscus tear). This is because doing them touch & go and pushing the strength all the time, or doing the higher reps like that, was very fatiguing, and I wanna build up a lot more muscle this time around, and if I only go from 410 to maybe 441 (200 kg) in a bulk of 9-10 months, that's okay. I was so beat up towards the end of the previous big bulk. I'll do similar things for other exercises, perhaps just based on how I feel. But I think the minutia of it does not matter, and it's foolish and missing the point to go all in one direction.
"insufficient strength" is utterlly stupid to say. If all you did was train Dr Mike style of slow and controlled with lighter weights, you'll still be stronger then 99% of the population and not run into trouble in your day to day life of struggling to carry that 40lb bag of dog food inside.
Purely strength training has very little carry over to the real world at a point. The guy with a 1400lb total isn't having troubles in generic life that the guy with the 2200lb total isnt. Because that would mean the 99% who don't train and would get under 500 would be screwed, and they're not.
@brandonhoover2120
Also Dr. Mike doesn't advocate tempo work really, and he still lifts heavy. Eric just made a strawman extreme argument that was easy for him to refute because he couldn't be bothered to actually watch the content he was critiquing.
Bodybuilding is also not general strength training, it's an aesthetic pursuit. In my mind, there's no reason you can't get strong and be huge. Check out Bald Omni Man as an example. He's focused on hypertrophy but has a background as a strength coach. His numbers are way more impressive than Eric's ego lifting nonsense from his natty days, and he's strong at a variety of movements instead of just heavy pull variations.
I feel like Eric is an old man yelling at clouds, he's living in 2016, and he's not coming clean that he's 50 lb heavier now from PEDs, not from his training methodology.
This made me realized that I lost my way in the gym. I used to look forward to my deadlift prs and fuckin rippin the weights got my deadlift up to 450 at 170lbs body weight. NowI’m significantly weaker and do not look forward to the gym. Gettin back on track tomorrow
I never get sore doing strict curls and almost always get sore doing cheat curls. I'm pretty sure the difference is intensity.
I never get sore doing cheat curls and just had a workout doing strict slow and controlled curls and my biceps have probably never been more sore in my life
@@GenghisGaming It shows people are different.
19:37 Bugez you nail easily one of my favourite bits of advice in youtube lifting land. Being able to handle your own weights from the rack, to the bench, up for the lift and back again is the simplest yet most earnest thing we can do to get strong.
You're a godsend Bugez.
You are 100% right. Most guys who aren't getting results are because of a lack of intensity and focus. Trying to overanalyze everything to a point of using super light weight isn't going to help that guy at all.
I want to see more critiques this was so entertaining and like you said its not always black or white the truth is always somewhere in the middle!
Man if this is how in depth they are going on freaking dumbbell press and dips, imagine them trying to comprehend the insanity of Olympic Weightlifting 😂😂
Thanks for these juicy golden tidbits Eric 💪🏻
Imagine the sparks that would fly between two genius minds if Bugez ever collabed with Dom Mazzetti
Immeasurable brocore energy, would cause exercise scientists to spontaneously combust
I've never seen an objectively strong dude that was small. Conversley, I've never seen an objectively big dude that was weak. Moral of the story, you need to get strong if you want to be big.
Absolutely
Get big to get strong. Want to increase your bench? Get a 57" chest.
It's way easier to get strong when you're already stacked with muscle than it is to get huge when you're already strong. It's really not a difficult concept to understand
@@jhondisjames2151This topic seems like a sore spot for you
Well the folks who train for strength competitively always had a dedicated hypertrophy phase in their training, since you gotta add more muscle in order to get stuff to work with.
Dr Mike just has practical advice, don’t think its rocket science at all. By all means throw weight around but if you’re going to put all that work in might as well make the most out of it. Even Mike says by all means do it your way with reasonable form but if you do it this ways it’s better for gains. If it’s more fun for you to throw weight around than by all means have at it. No judgment either way. RP’s emphasis is on the stimulus to fatigue ratio and stretch mediated hypertrophy. If you’re into that style of training than Dr Mikes style will do.
Your reaction is so familiar to me. Especially in work environnements.
I would recommend applying a certain method of action.
You do your research so you know what you’re doing, and can logically explain the reasons for doing it.
I call this the work up, or prep.
This is where it’s important to do this “nerd talk”.
But once it’s time for action they don’t do this talking.
Since this is this guys first session with RP, and they’re sort of taking him through it.
Explaining why and what.
He his a reliable Dr. In this shit so he’s a very important and necessary voice and content form to have.
Not to say your critics are not valid.
I’m just fighting for the principal that implores you to do som work up prior to executing something you want to be good at.
Not that you never do this I’m just for the first time seeing you cover something rather then your shorts of you going hard as MFK, or being funny.
Love the content!
I watch both of you. And it was the passion, excitment and odd lifts you showed me that got me into strength training 6 years ago. But over the last 3 years watching RP that ive focused on pause reps, the stretch, full ROM and machines that helped me grow. He brings the knowledge behind hypertrophy, while you bring the mindset and intensity behind strength. And i combine them. Hes not beginner level. His partner, jared, is a pro bb because of those methods. You guys agree more than you disagree. You should watch more of his videos where he trains pros.
I know he’s great. I’m just giving my two cents in this discussion of ultra slow controlled reps. I appreciate ya following for the last 6 years!
Agree 100% bugez. "Even the most perfect workout program is useless to the trainee, if they have lost enthusiasm for it..."
YES! EXACTLY! It becomes a chore. I just want to go to the gym, go nuts and then leave. I don't care about 10000% optimal.
I feel like this video is a great reminder to actually be proud of your workouts and what you can do, and not get too concerned with technique or what is healthier for your joints etc...
HORSECOCKING some fkn weight with ABSOLUTE FORCE is the BEST way of maintaining motivation, consistency and enthusiasm for the gym and I love that the BUGEZ CRUIZ is a youtuber that preaches this to the masses
Another stellar analysis from the Professor of Mass & Hypertrophy
The commentary channel we didn't know we needed.
Mike prefers to arch on bench because it’s safer on the shoulders and pre stretches the pecs. so maybe you get more range of motion laying flat but if you arch you get way more stretch. the weight is less than you would think because it’s a hypertrophy workout, not a strength workout. he’ll make you use only as much weight as you need to get a good rep range and good sfr. you make a really good argument on the fun of it but he’s training hardcore athletes so they probably find fun in the challenge. sorry for being a nerd Sticky Ricky just felt like backing up the form monster under your bed
I also arch to protect my shoulders, just thought it was interesting since max ROM was the goal. Again, I’m not hating on the “form monster”, just don’t think it’s the best way to train but I get bodybuilders are susceptible to injury and don’t care about strength
you’re just giving your two cents, no harm in doing that. nowadays the discussion is lengthened partials vs full rom. recent studies and stuff have shown that lengthened partials might be just as good as full rom. going back to the bench press point, maybe laying flat gives you a little more rom on the movement as a whole but you would be losing out on more rom on your chest specifically because arching already stretches your pecs. basically arching your back when benching most of the time is going to be better than laying flat, as long as you’re doing a normal arch that’s not super weird. Mike still loves max rom don’t get me wrong, if you watch his video talking about the best chest exercise in the world he talks about camber bar bench press specifically because of the larger rom and better stretch of the pecs. i hope you get to collab with him that video would be awesome and he could explain why he trains like he does way better than i could
@@lluviatibia8722 How would "prestretching" the chest give it a bigger rom? If anything its the opposite, think about it.
@@dante6806 you travel the same amount but you started already stretched so you stretch more. maybe you can make the bar travel more because your shoulders won’t hurt
I am with you horsing big weight has worked for me more then any other shit ive done
This is kinda the conclusion I've come to after training this way for a few months, lately I've been going to the gym and just thinking about having my form somewhere in between a Doctor mike rep and powerlifting rep and I think that type of training is going to suit most people the best for size and strength. I think his stuff is great for isolations like doing cable curls with that tempo and the stretch feels absolutely insane but I tried it on ohp one time and was doing like 90lbs for 10 I just wanted to die.
I think the answer is in the name really "Renaissance Periodization" the training works for mike because he periodizes his training and in doing this making sure that his progression is on point which is really the only determining factor. Most people don't want or even need to do this and would do much better with a simple rep goal system which is hard to implement if your very pedantic about your form, exactly like your saying. Basically the problem with mike's advice isn't that it's wrong it's just hitting the wrong demographic.
I think the tempo type training is excellent if you’re rehabbing an injury or if you’re already very strong and lifting lighter like this helps keep you healthy or improves your recovery. If you’re not advanced then you should just training normally.
As someone who loves Mike’s channel, I subscribed the moment he called stimulus-to-fatigue ratio “nerd shit”😂😂
Do a collab with Dr Mike NOW!
I love that I can't even get 2 minutes into one of your long form videos without laughing. I'm even chuckling in anticipation of the Rick antics.
Oh boy i cant wait till dr mike sees this
Man Boogz, somehow you managed to say a whole lot without really saying anything and yet you've articulated all of my gripes with what other peopls ideas and things theyve been led to believe
That there is no substitute for heavy training
Eric: "Let me add my 2 cents to this".
Also Eric: showers everyone with dollar bills while riding on a big beautiful white stallion and pressing overhead a heavy freaking dumbbell.
One of my favorite big bulbous boogs vid. Love that mindset. Gotta stop thinking lifting heavy and explosively is ego lifting. It’s just a way to get strong, athletic, fast. I tried both for years and I can 100% say that both have their place, but for me personally, lifting heavy metal discs as fast as I can (while having complete control of the movement) is the way. Love you Boogy❤
excited to be here
😂
the bugez bringing back FUN into the mix
This gave me an AHA moment: Bugez is the modern equivalent of Brooks Kubik. Brooks made his mark pointing out all the bullshit antics of gymgoers in his time doing everything to look better except trying to get STRONGER.