Why I disagree with alot of your beliefs about the LGBTQ community, I do believe you are genuinely trying to understand scripture and love people, I simply came to a different conclusion about what the bible teaches about this subject. I have a lot of respect for you. But I don't consider Homoxuality as sexual brokenness nor do I believe it's a sin. But I also like how your very open about your views, too often churches dance around this issue, claiming to be a Welcoming and inclusive Community, then lgbtq people get involved and after a few months to a year find out it's a superficial Welcoming and end up being hurt and left empty but a Community they throught of as a Spiritual home and family. Your open and honest about your churches stance on theses issues, you do it in a kind and loving manner, and despite the fact I disagree with you, I highly respect you.
For every interpretation any one of us has of the bible, others will interpret that very same scripture in another way. And someone else will interpret it another way. Is turquoise blue or green?
Dr. William Loader makes an interesting case: the Bible is anti-gay (including orientation) and should not be reinterpreted to favour some other view, but the research of modern science & psychology gives people the permission to reconsider their stance, since it appears homosexuality is a natural part of mammalian (especially primate) behaviour. Even conservative guys like Dr. Mark Yarhouse believe in some form of natural orientation, though he believes in celibacy.
I disagree with "orientation" being discussed at all in Scripture. David DeSilva makes a much better case for what we see discussed in the NT, I would argue.
@@DiscipleDojo I don't think the biblical authors would accept the concept sexual orientation (find it a bit suspicious that it's quotation marks in your reply) if someone had presented them it. They believed YHWH had created everything as ideal opposites (Heaven - Earth, Day - Night, Sun - Moon, male - female, etc) and would be disgusted if someone tried to explain to them that some men naturally feel attraction to men or women to women. The Bible doesn't mention orientation in any context, so it's easy to suspect that the authors didn't believe in it, and that they believed homosexuality was result of the fall. The conservative Side-B-person themselves commits revisionism as well. I appreciate your compassion, but guys like you, Yarhouse, Wesley Hill and Preston Sprinkle are 40-60 years too late to make an actual change in the culture. Wesley Hill and other celibates still get a lot of hate from most fundamentalists and several conservatives. Also the point of same-sex attraction and orientation is, that if both humans and chimps experience it, so does likely also their last common ancestor, meaning it predates any form of human culture, society and religion.
Of course they would believe it's the result of the Fall...as is all other desire for things God prohibits. No one is arguing against that. By 'orientation' I mean that just experiencing innate and powerful desire for same-sex sexual relationship is not sinful anymore so than experiencing innate and powerful desire for heterosexual sex with multiple people. The biblical authors would refer to that as 'temptation' and the 'desires of the flesh', whereas we use the term 'orientation' in our modern Western context. But they are referring to the same thing at the end of the day. As for changing the culture...I'm less interested in that than I am in changing the Church's ability to faithfully and lovingly relate to and minister to sexual minorities *without* compromising the Gospel's sexual ethic. (That's actually why I am no longer a 'United' Methodist, in fact.)
@@DiscipleDojo I mean orientation is the official, scientific and academic term, while the "temptation" and "desires of the flesh" carry by default religious baggage.
There is homosexuality in animals. Really surprised me when I heard Ron McGill talk about this in a talk he gave at a zoo. I looked it up after, and it occurs throughout the animal kingdom in about the same percentage as in humans. So, perhaps homosexuality is just another part of God's plan - if you look for examples in nature of what God intended .
@@scorpfelidae2439 there is also murder, rape, cannibalism, and promiscuity in the animal kingdom. So looking to animals for our ethic isn't the way to go.
It is a different category when talking about relationships and sex, but not a different category when discussing biblical interpretation. People used the Bible to oppress women and slaves. It speaks to your ability to be a compatabilist to scripture when it suits you, like divorce and remarriage or sleeping with your wife on her menstrual period, but the same is not offered to LGBT people, but to exclude. You ignore context of scripture and scholarship to make a declaration. The church is wrong period and has joined with and lead to the persecution and treatment of LGBT people. They historically have twisted scripture and read into it their prejudices.
@@DiscipleDojo Oh, I watched it. Just calling out your inconsistency in biblical interpretation and using text in the Bible that do not condemn all same-sex behavior.
The charge that I "ignore context of scripture and scholarship" is simply false. As a Methodist, I have been involved with this debate (publicly and privately) for 20 years. There is no context or scholarship that is being "ignored"...you just disagree with the conclusion. That is not an honest critique, I'm afraid.
No he’s speaking truth and addressed correctly. Just because the Bible was used to enslave people doesn’t mean God wanted it. And just because people use the Bible and try to promote sexual immorality, doesn’t mean it’s right. God hates all sexual immorality and he’s made it clear many times. He has even addressed the background and deeper meaning of the words. You can look at the languages for yourself. It was very clear. There many times this is mentioned like with lot wanting to give his daughter to men wanting the men in the house. Or another case that happens later on. We can’t read it like we want to, and friend nothing he said was wrong. He said it with love, he explained the context and he didn’t ignore anything. I think you wanting it to be okay is blinding you. I struggled too but God showed me the same passages in Leviticus and Genesis. No room for argument on His word unless you want to make reality of a lie. And just because people were persecuted for their sexual immorality doesn’t mean God did it or was okay with it. God definitely didn’t order it to be done. It’s not right what was done, but it’s not like race, you weren’t born that way where it’s irreversible, Jesus can change you if you want it, but you have to admit your sin. If you don’t give it up it will cause you to perish. But no I can tell you as someone who was shown this by God in my bedroom with no influence other than a personal testimony of a guy, and God giving me videos and channels I’d never heard of, He showed me the truth. Many will lie to you and we lie to ourselves. But if you have to fight it, if you felt confused at first, if you saw people treat it as odd, it’s because it is. God made you make or female and made you to be with the opposite sex, it’s your sin and the adversary that urge those impure desires on, just like a man lusting after a woman. Impurity is impurity. He wants you to be alive not dead. You guys fight for things that are going to kill many of us, because you advocate for sin. We are simply telling you the truth like God said to. What you do with that you’ll have to give an account before God like all of us on judgment day. And if you are not covered in the blood of the lamb and truly surrendered to Him, you will not make it. God is not letting any sin in his kingdom. I encourage you to ask God not just read his words on your own, but let Him show you. If you’re sincere he will. Checkout Rosario butterffield, and Beckett Cook. Coming out ministries is good too. But don’t fall for the devils lies, they feel good only for a time, until they slowly eat your soul. Shalom to you and I know this was hard to read. But I’m only telling you the truth. Ask the Lord without any lense blinding you.
Why I disagree with alot of your beliefs about the LGBTQ community, I do believe you are genuinely trying to understand scripture and love people, I simply came to a different conclusion about what the bible teaches about this subject. I have a lot of respect for you. But I don't consider Homoxuality as sexual brokenness nor do I believe it's a sin. But I also like how your very open about your views, too often churches dance around this issue, claiming to be a Welcoming and inclusive Community, then lgbtq people get involved and after a few months to a year find out it's a superficial Welcoming and end up being hurt and left empty but a Community they throught of as a Spiritual home and family. Your open and honest about your churches stance on theses issues, you do it in a kind and loving manner, and despite the fact I disagree with you, I highly respect you.
So how did you come to a different understanding and why?
Its sin
I will humbly recommend reading Dr. Robert Gagnon's book on the subject. It's a very thorough study.
Great points brother and you spoke straight truth.
For every interpretation any one of us has of the bible, others will interpret that very same scripture in another way. And someone else will interpret it another way. Is turquoise blue or green?
Dr. William Loader makes an interesting case: the Bible is anti-gay (including orientation) and should not be reinterpreted to favour some other view, but the research of modern science & psychology gives people the permission to reconsider their stance, since it appears homosexuality is a natural part of mammalian (especially primate) behaviour. Even conservative guys like Dr. Mark Yarhouse believe in some form of natural orientation, though he believes in celibacy.
I disagree with "orientation" being discussed at all in Scripture. David DeSilva makes a much better case for what we see discussed in the NT, I would argue.
@@DiscipleDojo I don't think the biblical authors would accept the concept sexual orientation (find it a bit suspicious that it's quotation marks in your reply) if someone had presented them it. They believed YHWH had created everything as ideal opposites (Heaven - Earth, Day - Night, Sun - Moon, male - female, etc) and would be disgusted if someone tried to explain to them that some men naturally feel attraction to men or women to women.
The Bible doesn't mention orientation in any context, so it's easy to suspect that the authors didn't believe in it, and that they believed homosexuality was result of the fall. The conservative Side-B-person themselves commits revisionism as well.
I appreciate your compassion, but guys like you, Yarhouse, Wesley Hill and Preston Sprinkle are 40-60 years too late to make an actual change in the culture. Wesley Hill and other celibates still get a lot of hate from most fundamentalists and several conservatives.
Also the point of same-sex attraction and orientation is, that if both humans and chimps experience it, so does likely also their last common ancestor, meaning it predates any form of human culture, society and religion.
Of course they would believe it's the result of the Fall...as is all other desire for things God prohibits. No one is arguing against that. By 'orientation' I mean that just experiencing innate and powerful desire for same-sex sexual relationship is not sinful anymore so than experiencing innate and powerful desire for heterosexual sex with multiple people. The biblical authors would refer to that as 'temptation' and the 'desires of the flesh', whereas we use the term 'orientation' in our modern Western context. But they are referring to the same thing at the end of the day.
As for changing the culture...I'm less interested in that than I am in changing the Church's ability to faithfully and lovingly relate to and minister to sexual minorities *without* compromising the Gospel's sexual ethic. (That's actually why I am no longer a 'United' Methodist, in fact.)
@@DiscipleDojo I mean orientation is the official, scientific and academic term, while the "temptation" and "desires of the flesh" carry by default religious baggage.
I was a celibate lesbian. I prayed and prayed and prayed... Then I had a hysterectomy and was suddenly cured. This tells me that it is biology.
There is homosexuality in animals. Really surprised me when I heard Ron McGill talk about this in a talk he gave at a zoo. I looked it up after, and it occurs throughout the animal kingdom in about the same percentage as in humans. So, perhaps homosexuality is just another part of God's plan - if you look for examples in nature of what God intended .
@@scorpfelidae2439 there is also murder, rape, cannibalism, and promiscuity in the animal kingdom. So looking to animals for our ethic isn't the way to go.
Sexual Brokenness: Being a homosexual.
No, homosexuals aren't broken in any way. Thanks though.
It is tho
It is a different category when talking about relationships and sex, but not a different category when discussing biblical interpretation. People used the Bible to oppress women and slaves. It speaks to your ability to be a compatabilist to scripture when it suits you, like divorce and remarriage or sleeping with your wife on her menstrual period, but the same is not offered to LGBT people, but to exclude. You ignore context of scripture and scholarship to make a declaration. The church is wrong period and has joined with and lead to the persecution and treatment of LGBT people. They historically have twisted scripture and read into it their prejudices.
Did you watch the video? All of your points are addressed in it specifically.
Did you watch the video? All of your points are addressed in it specifically.
@@DiscipleDojo Oh, I watched it. Just calling out your inconsistency in biblical interpretation and using text in the Bible that do not condemn all same-sex behavior.
The charge that I "ignore context of scripture and scholarship" is simply false. As a Methodist, I have been involved with this debate (publicly and privately) for 20 years. There is no context or scholarship that is being "ignored"...you just disagree with the conclusion. That is not an honest critique, I'm afraid.
No he’s speaking truth and addressed correctly. Just because the Bible was used to enslave people doesn’t mean God wanted it. And just because people use the Bible and try to promote sexual immorality, doesn’t mean it’s right. God hates all sexual immorality and he’s made it clear many times. He has even addressed the background and deeper meaning of the words. You can look at the languages for yourself. It was very clear. There many times this is mentioned like with lot wanting to give his daughter to men wanting the men in the house. Or another case that happens later on. We can’t read it like we want to, and friend nothing he said was wrong. He said it with love, he explained the context and he didn’t ignore anything. I think you wanting it to be okay is blinding you. I struggled too but God showed me the same passages in Leviticus and Genesis. No room for argument on His word unless you want to make reality of a lie. And just because people were persecuted for their sexual immorality doesn’t mean God did it or was okay with it. God definitely didn’t order it to be done. It’s not right what was done, but it’s not like race, you weren’t born that way where it’s irreversible, Jesus can change you if you want it, but you have to admit your sin. If you don’t give it up it will cause you to perish. But no I can tell you as someone who was shown this by God in my bedroom with no influence other than a personal testimony of a guy, and God giving me videos and channels I’d never heard of, He showed me the truth. Many will lie to you and we lie to ourselves. But if you have to fight it, if you felt confused at first, if you saw people treat it as odd, it’s because it is. God made you make or female and made you to be with the opposite sex, it’s your sin and the adversary that urge those impure desires on, just like a man lusting after a woman. Impurity is impurity. He wants you to be alive not dead. You guys fight for things that are going to kill many of us, because you advocate for sin. We are simply telling you the truth like God said to. What you do with that you’ll have to give an account before God like all of us on judgment day. And if you are not covered in the blood of the lamb and truly surrendered to Him, you will not make it. God is not letting any sin in his kingdom. I encourage you to ask God not just read his words on your own, but let Him show you. If you’re sincere he will. Checkout Rosario butterffield, and Beckett Cook. Coming out ministries is good too. But don’t fall for the devils lies, they feel good only for a time, until they slowly eat your soul. Shalom to you and I know this was hard to read. But I’m only telling you the truth. Ask the Lord without any lense blinding you.