It shouldn't be surprising though. It's a tried and true model. Truck advertisements don't have to hit guys with their product features as much as they use imagery and messaging to reinforce car culture, "independence", and masculinity to prey on the insecurities that accompany societal expectations. Adults aren't excluded from the strategy.
“Men these days are too feminine discourse stretches back to the 1800s” Michel Foucault traces it back even further, to ancient greece, where one writer complained about young men of his day indulging in “feminine” expressions such as theatre and dance.
It can be found throughout history, there’s a quote from F.Borodin in 1727 critiquing the ‘Luxury and Effeminacy of the Age’ -‘Young men should cease to act like coxcombs’ and ‘Effeminacy would ruin the nation’ -Source: P, Corfeild, The Georgians, The Deeds and Misdeeds of 18th Century Britain
@Radiohomunculus I'm almost certain he's referring to the History of Sexuality Volume 1 or 2 because those deal pretty extensively with Greco Roman culture iirc. The first one definitely deals with Greco Roman culture but its been a long time since I read it tbh
It’s a version of the Golden Age Fallacy: as far back in history as there has been writing, people have been complaining that things were better in the good old days, whining about “kids these days” etc. Pick a time in history “when men were men,” and you’ll find someone at that time writing about how men those days were actually sissies and everyone was getting soft *then.* It’s not because men have been getting softer, it’s because middle aged men have always been whiny babies who are insecure about the next generation. Of course the ultimate irony is how modern guys have chosen the Spartan helmet as their symbol of this idea - the Spartans were one of the most enthusiastically queer male cultures in documented history. Only a completely deluded person could look around this culture where we’re up to our eyeballs in guns, beard products, tattoos, on-demand testosterone injections, jiu jitsu schools, shattered powerlifting records, trucks the size of shuttle buses etc. and conclude “when did we get so soft?” 😂
"a lot of these people were shitty before they found andrew tate" - YES, TY, NOT ALL OF US ACCIDENTALED OUR WAY INTO A NAZI PHASE, THAT SHIT IS NOT JUST SOME NORMAL TEENAGE RITE OF PASSAGE
Okay right, exactly lol I’ve been taking time over the years really doing the work and fishing out all the gunk from my psyche. It helps a lot that TH-camrs like FD can help pinpoint blind spots.
@@jordanetherington1922The soil analogy is an excellent one, and related to that keep in mind that all of us don't make that soil on our own. It's a combination of the people around us as it's fertilized, and our own taken or missed opportunities as we grow up. And just like some people have to work much harder to stay in shape due to genetics or bad health role models, or finding paths to wealth due to not being born into it or around people who know how to amass it, some people have a lot more work to do in order to replace that soil that was corrupted by bad influences and bad decisions while they were young, and should be given at least some space to do so before being fully judged for it. Human's greatest strength and weakness is our ability to adapt to the most messed up things as "normal" as long as we're inured to it at a young enough age by people who are placed in positions of authority over us. Calling people "monsters" and things like that for example gives the mistaken impression that it's something uniquely broken inside them, and absolves the rest of humanity from coming to terms with that the vast majority of us are capable of believing or doing some pretty fucked up stuff if we were raised in the environment that can push people towards it. It's not ALL nurturing and outside influences that re the problem by any stretch, but to pretend it's not a factor, and take that into consideration when judging and helping people like those in the incel community, is counterproductive to actually getting any real progress in deprogramming some of these people.
At the same time, what utility are we bringing into the world by saying "That 14 year old who found Andrew Tate was already a shitty 13 year old". It's a kid lol
@@misterscorpius1446 It's about recognizing that this shit doesn't start with watching Tate or other manosphere videos. That kid grew up in circumstances that reinforced - sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly - some amount of shitty beliefs and behavior that ended up getting that kid recommendations for Tate-style videos. It's about recognizing that removing Tate doesn't remove the problem, it's just treating a symptom. Because once Tate is gone, it may take a while before someone takes his place, but in the meantime that shitty kid who grew up in circumstances that reinforced him to be shitty will be just as receptive to the next Tate when he's 18 or 20 or 24 as he was at 13.
thank you for addressing the autism side of this conversation. i’m an autistic woman and i’ve been so frustrated about how the “autistic school shooter” image has damaged our community this past decade.
The action of one individual does not reflect the group. This is something that everyone should know by now. I have work with autistic people, some were amazing, others were rude and mean. They’re human beings, one different to the other. God bless ❤
Oh wow. I try to be aware of at least the more broadly known about public shootings (within reason. It's a depressing subject and I don't need to sacrifice my own mental health) and I didn't know about any autistic mass shooters. Personally, despite being a man and, frankly, very lonely, (and autistic), I find few people as repulsive as manosphere people. Honestly, if they were my primary examples of manliness, I would identify as nonbinary. Most of this video I've spent thinking about how despite autistic people generally being lonely and more socially isolated, these people just can't appeal to us. Admittedly, that is partially projection and probably partially wishful thinking but still. Edit: I wrote this without having finished the video and was just before the neurodivergent section. Lol
YES. I'm autistic and I was accused, by school admins and concerned parents, of being a potential school shooter three times. Sure, I was obnoxious and weird and kind of obstinate, but I never would've dreamed of hurting anyone. It was pretty miserable.
@@khadyadjisall5708yes, you are right. However, you should also know that a lot of human beings like to pay more attention at the bad than good. Anything good autistic people have made are rarely known by people.
As a lonely guy who struggles to meet people and navigate romance... I think a lot of guys forget how many women are in that exact same situation and how little they are being listened to.
I get your point but it completely ignores the societal structures that encourage men to be in those positions alot more than women. Coming from a woman, it just seems so odd to even suggest this as a coping mechanism
@@placeholder6811 I didn't mean it as a coping mechanism. That's the wrong way of seeing it. It's more that the society we live in makes everyone lonely and miserable. It's not just men. If there were more ways of meeting people as an adult and more time to build relationships, it would be better for everyone. It is true that the ways in which society makes men and women lonely are both very different and very gendered, of course.
@and9084 It would have been nice to see that nuance in your original comment, even though I still disagree with your overall point. It comes off as very dismissive like saying "hey everyone feels sad lol". But thank you for clearing that up
There's nothing confusing about it. Their "arguments" are thinly veiled attempts to cover the quiet part they don't say out loud which is "I'm angry at women because I don't get to have that with them"
Because it allows them to discriminate against some women and add value to others. If they can get a more "valuable" women then they've done masculinity better.
Five years ago I found out about my wife’s many infidelities throughout our fifteen year marriage. I was completely traumatized. I was working through my recovery and stumbled upon MGTOW content. It was really easy to fall into the trappings of those ideas because I was so hurt. Fortunately my affair recovery program and therapists pushed back on these ideas and I didn’t stay in there too long so I empathize with men who fall into because it’s very enticing when you feel so broken. When you feel like you’re not enough. Today I’m much healthier and I’m grateful for content like this because it helps me from falling back into the trappings of manosphere ideas and rhetoric. F.D, you are appreciated
That kind of experience really fucking sucks. It's sad that it happens but I'm happy to hear you found your way into a productive mindset about it and not MGTOW shit. May many other hurt men follow your path
Good for you for trusting in your legitimate support network. The manosphere types only want to wallow in self pity and beat down women, and men for that matter. You were lucky you had many years of experience under your belt when going through that ordeal. When stuff like that happens to impressionable youngsters, it's sooo much harder to overcome. Tyvm for sharing.
@@LukeMcGuireoides Thanks for the encouragement. The tricky part is wallowing in that self pity is really easy. Even comfortable in some ways. It was very easy for me to blame my wife for how I felt as well as her infidelity. That’s only half true. The infidelity was hers to own but my trauma was mine to work through. Once I was taught that, I was able to take the steps to work through the trauma and not stay stuck in that infinite loop of pain and anger. Those things can only be taught by healthy mentorship and therapy; something the Tate’s and Sneakos of the world can’t teach because they’ve not done the work to be healthy and safe enough to teach it. My heart aches for the young men and boys who model their behaviors after these guys but I have sympathy for those young men and boys because I understand why they do 😢
I had a similar thing as a woman towards Men after I was attacked. It's easy to fall in these cylos. What I realized is they just made me more angry. And it made me see men as 2 dimensional and not 3 dimensional beings.
Thank goodness you got that help. I’ve been involved with men who experienced women cheating on them and the amount of BS I had to cope with was heartbreaking. I felt like I had cheated but I didn’t and I was just in this shadow of the woman that tore them apart.
Theres this quote I love from Brennan Lee Mulligan, quoting his professor: "... people are not motivated by ideological codes. People are motivated by impulse and construct ideological codes to justify and rationalize what they were already going to do. An old professor of mine had this great thing. He said, “On the level of individuals and civilizations, personality predates ideology.” Meaning that before you were a fascist, you were a bully and an asshole".
Funny, cause alot of the fascists today were victims when they grew up, felt threatened by black folks or immigrants some black guy took their girl in highschool now they're voting for trump because they look up to his son in law, there's a bunch of different entries
@@o-wolfa lot were also influenced by their parents or peer pressure/media, I know some people who seldom see people of color but are incredibly racist
@@o-wolf They're casting themselves as victims regardless of whether they actually were, bullies tend to actually have great self-esteem and high levels of happiness.
I just want to say I'm not a guy but I am autistic and the "autistic people are going to be more likely to have life experiences that push them into online echo chambers" bit is absolutely correct. Many of us have far better social outcomes in online spaces where things like tone and body language play less of a role in communication, and because of the nature of the internet this can cause a spiral of rejecting face to face interaction in favor of comfortable online echo chambers. To be clear, I think online hobbies are valid, I think having online friends is valid, but your entire life cannot be spent locked in a box filled with people trying to sell you things.
This is also compounded by the fact that we are often underemployed and unemployed or have trouble learning to drive and can have our independence restricted meaning that sometimes we have no choice. But it isn't hopeless there are many good people out there who want to help us get accommodation and not be isolated. I have found quite a few irl friends but it took a lot of trial and error and not being afraid of embarrassment and rejection. Most of my current friends tho i met through my current partner who is also neurodivergent and most of their friends are also neurodivergent which is really freeing and joyful. Im also dating 3 other ppl who are also autistic! ☺️☺️ being autistic can be a great blessing in a community whether online or in person. I cannot always see all my friends and partners in person both because of covid and bc they live across town and i cant drive. But i am still connected to them online.
On a side note, it's crazy this dude in the video brags about making $10-12k on his previous videos, but is actually anti-capitalism. You can't make this shite up! 🤦♂️😂
@@samspade8830 Whats so weird about that? I mean, maybe he does actually live in a post scarcity society where money is utterly meaningless. Unless that's the case though, he still needs money to survive because of the system he lives in, and it is also a tangible metric to evaluate how successful the video is.
I've never been the type of man who tried to show I was a man by dominating woman...and it never made me less of a man...your manhood isn't measured by dominating others, but by standing on principle, standing up for what's right, and taking care of your family...
Appeals to emotion or to nature that aren't based in social science like sociology or history immediately raise red flags to me. Fascists love lying about human nature. From reading "Anatomy of Fascism" I believe its their most common & dangerous lie.
It's a really small thing, but growing up whenever a couple was in the car together, the man ALWAYS drove. I always assumed that it was "supposed" to be that way. It wasn't until high school that I saw my boyfriend's mom do all the driving. I was extra confused about it because his dad was a professional driver (truck driver), so I figured he'd be better at it. But that's exactly why he didn't want to drive. He did it all day for work and didn't want to have to be behind the wheel when he got home. It made me realize that despite being raised with feminist ideals, a lot of my life was influenced by traditional gender roles that my parents and grandparents had never thought to unpack
I moved home when covid hit in 2020 and immediately noticed my 12 yr old brother slipping into manosphere content. He was the only child living at home but still neither of our parents noticed despite my dad being very aware of incels bc he was a cop and they had to do trainings on the community. What you said about passive parenting of boys is incredibly true. The second I started questioning him and actively engaging with him in a serious way, initiating conversations about his thoughts and beliefs a lot of what he was learning began to crumble. He’s 16 now and has a really sweet girlfriend. He recently mentioned “before u moved back I think I was going down the alt right pipeline” and I realized that even tho I was putting in a lot of work to educate him, because I was questioning him and challenging him as an equal he didn’t see it as lecturing he saw it as discussion that allowed him to come to his own conclusions. I explained that I noticed, was worried about him, and really cared about how he was feeling since it was a sign to me that he was feeling some type of turmoil. We kind of laughed about it but honestly I’m happy that we can talk it out now in reflection rather than as something that continued to grow and fracture our relationship. Whenever friends complain about statements boys in their families make I always ask how they’re engaging with it. Maybe people say that they don’t. I know that there is a line with harm but these boys are our community. They need to be payed attention to and they need to be cared about! I hope this makes sense it kinda makes me tear up reflecting on this time but I’m really proud of him and all the other boys who worked hard to question their worldview and came out the other side to something better ❤
that's so beautiful ❤ i do take a bit of pride in not letting my baby brother fall for misogyny either. our age gap is quite small so it was more about being constant with the little things. like validating his love for 'girly' music or 'gay' clothes, and just not caring about gender stereotypes at all but treating him like any human person. being there when his heart got broken and letting him know it's okay to cry, or giving him a safe place to sleep after partying a bit too much - without a big lecture in the morning. helping with difficult money stuff occasionally and not ever telling him to 'grow up' but always battling the shame, reassuring him that nobody is good at absolutely everything and he's not a bad person or unmanly for having some weaknesses. he's now happily married to a kind, beautiful and highly educated woman and i'm pretty sure it's not thanks to our parents' 'boys will be boys' hands off approach.
I'm so sad to see hear this, but not surprised at all to hear it as a HS teacher. I do my best to challenge these ideologies, language, and behavior that has become commonplace over the last few years. As a male teacher- I know it's up to me challenge and hopefully enlighten some of these boys.
I'm a 23y/o male who got into the manosspere during the covid pandemic through youtube SJW owned compilations, fresh and fit, justpearlythings and sneako. I realized that these guys were phonies when I saw the image of women that the manosphere podcasts constantly portrayed through the guests that they bought on their show. They never bought on any intellectual knowledgeable women to debate them on their own ideals, it was always these onlyfans women who had little to no preparation about the topics that they would bring up. Every interview was an easy dunk for them. They never actually wanted to be challenged, and when they were It was easy to see how bogus their beliefs actually were. In hindsight I cant believe I actually used to consume this content with any ounce of seriousness. I'm glad I managed to get out when I did.
Did you also notice how often they would get the women "guests" drunk before grilling them with their terrible questions? Also, I'm glad you got out. Those guys are usually scammers, and the ones who aren't are like the miserable crabs at the bottom of the bucket, trying to pull other crabs back in before they can escape. Edit: the fresh n fit/andrew tate type podcast bros don't actually want to help their listeners. They want their money. I hope you found positive people to be in your life and positive people to watch online!
@@RyomenAyeni225 you can't change deadbeats because they'll always have access to women, because women find them attractive and will tolerate bad behaviour because they're tall and good looking
I remember a while back there was some online voice check thing to see how “manly” your voice was on a number scale. If you got a low score you were told to buy some “medicine” to improve how you sound. If that’s not evidence that this manosphere thing is nothing more than a business to prey on insecure men I don’t know what is.
Jesus. I just had flash backs to years ago, when companies first started branding specific products as "manly". You had bacon scented bubble bath, or manly shower routine kits (sawdust, bacon, etc scented soaps, face creams, etc), and the whole nine. I laughed at all of it at the time, because I'm not an insecure man and it seemed hilariously specific. I didn't realize at the time that I was literally witnessing the birth of the "insecure man as a marketing demographic" phenomenon. And I had no idea it was actually this large. None of my guy friends now or growing up are insecure, so it never actually dawned on me how many deeply insecure men there are out here. And then social media does what it always does and steps on the gas *hard,* and here we are. I suffer of the realization that they're not fooling anyone but each other would mean anything? That making crippling insecurity your primary personality trait doesn't actually help anything? Like, I don't even know how to process this, let alone attempt to help stop it because I'm not the target audience by any means. I've never been insecure enough to fall for this cartoon bullshit.
It's weird how many avenues there are to induct people into crazy stuff. I play D&D, I wish I had more gravitas in my voice for villains and narration, I went looking for like, voice actor tricks for doing deep voices, and most of the results are this kind of thing negging your voice and trying to get you to follow them for advice on being an alpha. Crazy
(EDIT: okay yeah no it's dead fuckin serious LMAO, didn't think checking would be that easy) Is it the voicecel thing? I was under the assumption that it was a joke, that was the vibe I got from the people I saw sharing it...
@@craptastrophe521 You are better off looking at speech or music lessons for that. A lot of Men can develop a nice tenor and bass just by training your voice. The vocal cords are muscles. They would also teach you to speak and breath from the diaphragm which really helps out your breathing overall. Many actors have music training to develop their range of voices.
Because manosphere, red-pill, nationalist types all follow the same basic method - mythologisation of "The Good Old Days". These people don't actually know their history, and it benefits them not to know. Because "The Good Old Days" isn't the past, it's their ideal _future_ under the justification of tradition . After all, if that future utopia is actually their history, then they can use both the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy and the 'appeal to ancient wisdom' fallacy with impunity. The Good Old Days where all men worked and all women were barefoot and pregnant, and everyone in this utopia is cishet and happy, never existed. But they need it to, so they can't be blamed for their hate speech: the bigotry of this mythologised past is both not their fault because their ancestors came up with it first, and not their fault because it's justified as an unspoken _source_ of this mythological power.
I cant imagine that in the middle ages and prior that any lower class people didn't do some sort of work. Why would you just have one able bodied person do nothing all day? There's so much to so just to survive. Now that doing housework is less of a full time job due to modern convenience and the cost of living and raising children is so high, it is just way too hard to maintain the one income household for the majority of folks.
Hey, FD. I'm a clinical social worker and I work with young men in recovery. Many of them seem to subscribe to manosphere ideology and your content has been very helpful. Thank you for doing what you do! I encountered your channel when the Dave Chapelle video was recommended. After that, I saw the thumbnail for the Bo Burnham video. By then, I was hooked. Whenever a new FD video comes out, be it on the main channel or B-Sides, its always an exciting time for me. Thank you for helping this cis, het, white male's brain grow and eyes open.
Are there social workers who work exclusively with people in the manosphere or is the recovery mentioned here mostly centered around things like substance addiction.
I'm a clinical mental health counselor who works with 16-24 year olds. And most if my male clients will at least reference the manosphere as a positive source of information. Some of my female clients are dating some of those same pro-manosphere guys and are in psychologically abusive relationships. They are property to be dominated and ran.
@@robingrayson8917 Sorry, I thought I'd replied to this, but it doesn't show up for some reason, probably user error on my part. The recovery I mentioned is primarily substance use and mental health, and many of the clients also happen to have the manosphere intersection.
I’m a totally blind person and I am just so happy that you brought up disability and all this! I was literally thinking a minute before you mentioned it: “why doesn’t anybody bring up disability? “Blindness definitely affects the way that I interact in a sighted world as far as socialization goes. Groups of more than three people. Total are still a challenge for me, and when I was younger, forget about it. And it way had an effect on how I perceive dating signals, and just general friendship stuff, because sighted people use a lot a lot a lot of visual, communication and iContact and passing conversations by looking at other people. So important thank you for mentioning disability!
hey homie, i am also blind and have felt the struggles of what it is to exist in today's world while disabled. dating is already hard and for each one to be a blind date? it can be overwhelming a lot of the time its not often that I find other blind homies in youtube comments thanks for sharing, i would love to talk more sometime if you're using a screen reader: ahuahuahuahuahuahiahiahuahuahuahauahuahuahua hit me up lol
As someone with autism, same man. People really overlook how easy it is for disabled people to fall into these spheres, its just easier to believe your reason for "failure" is feminism or something rather than society as a whole just not giving a shit about your disability.
OK iContact is a totally absurd and dystopian freaky thing. My iPhone did a week ago or so and now it did it again! Typing on the on screen keyboard as possible, but I haven’t gotten fast at it and instead rely on dictation and sent that one off in a joyous, rush without editing. 😀
This video hits close to home. I have to proactively protect my oldest son from this stuff online. It’s a HUGE market and full of people targeting young boys. Parents be cautious and attentive!!!!
Also just hitting this part of the vid, as someone studying neuroscience(as a 2nd degree , not a flex just to show it’s not random no cred guy yelling into the void) and with a big focus on developmental psychology, neurodivergenance, and learning. I’d love to chat more or be engaged in the ongoing discussion in neurodivergent folks and potentially being especially vulnerable to being influenced here. Always looking for networks when providence allows lol (Not as a content creator, I’m not in that game these days as a point of study, just not in that field right now life is at capacity before I focus on grad school and study lol)
Damn also I got chills when you mentioned kids naturally being kind. I hope people get to this part (knowing the general drop off rate) and its counterpart is IMO a plague on pop psychology. Kids, boys, and generally humans are actually love seeking and kind, we build social contracts naturally and trust each other all day everyday without even realizing it. Someone telling you people are naturally bad is a red flag for their character. (This is not the same as a theological context but whole other argument there )
Best of luck. I worry about my beloved nephew. He's getting to be that age, around twelve. I comfort myself with the idea that he's much less likely to fall into their clutches since he has two sisters. I have a theory that boys that have experience with girls, even within their own family, are much less likely to enter inceldom.
As an academic and researcher I appreciate your pyramid of proof chart! We need an inverse one that puts "dude I saw on Twitter" and "that one video I saw on TH-cam" at the bottom.
Tbf, that sounds like your making an "appeal to authority". I would like to add that is about EVERYONE to take time and make their own conclusions about what you see, but most will not because they not have the mental fortitude to discuss this complex phenomena within themselves.
@@notsojharedtroll23 Oh man, as a former debate coach I'm so glad you brought this up. Because it often gets taken out of context and used as a way to say citing proof is logically flawed. Which is not the case. An "appeal to authority" is a bit of a misnomer. It's more of an appeal to misplaced authority. There are two ways that this fallacy occurs: 1.) You try to convince someone by citing that an authority figure says something, and therefore you should blindly trust it. This is only done in rare situations where someone implicitly trusts someone else enough to dictate their whole reality for them. This does not, however, allow you carte blanche to disregard any and all experts you dislike or disagree with simply because they are experts. Research in a peer reviewed journal has more than likely met the rigor standards to be considered credible, especially since they make their research open and viewable, and hide nothing in their methodlogies. 2.) You try and cite an expert to prove something, that is not an expert in that particular thing. Such as citing a brain surgeon as evidence when discussing say, the best toothpaste. It is more than likely that that particular expert, though very smart, isn't likely versed in teeth as much as say a dentist. Too often I see people use the "appeal to authority" as a crutch in argumentation to write off valid, evidence based research and experts. Drawing your own conclusions about what you see is great, assuming you know what you're looking at. If not, then you should probably rely on someone who is far better informed. If I'm going under the knife, I don't want someone to look at my guts and come to their own conclusions about what to do. I want a a surgeon, who is trained, and informed by years and years of knowledge of those that came before them to have that scalpel.
@@notsojharedtroll23 the appeal to authority is a misunderstood falacy the truth is no human has time to be educated on all topics and thus authorities must be made this is almost universally accepted about a quarter of philosophers I've met just outright say it's not a fallacy and I'm inclined to agree fallacies are innate logical errors using expert testimony isn't a logical error expert testimony is common in criminal courts for a reason you can disapprove of specific uses but it's unfair to disagree with it universally however: it's true that testimony is not always true thus authority information is heuristic and not fallacious different sides of the same coin if you really must use it as a fallacy most people who seriously use it say: 'it only applies if we have differing authorities' that is: if I'm a biologist talking to a Christian it would be an appeal to authority if they quote a bible verse as an authority but if they say a biologist paper said X it's not it's only an appeal to authority when a given authority is considered false in practice - this ultimately means: 'its not an appeal to authority if they actually are an expert in a relevant feild'
As a young black man in my early twenties trying to figure out how to be a good traditional masculine man without a dad, i was completely sucked into the manosphere when covid hit back in 2020. After years of watching that content i used to be very prejudice of women because I believed the rhetoric that was being given to me by the creators in that space. It wasn’t until recently when i stoped watching the content and all of the rage bait and started to improve my social skills that I realized how much of a negative mindset i used to have. I’m so grateful that there are creators like F.D signifier who make these great video essays to explain just how much damage the manosphere is doing. Thank you mr. Signifier for your hard work 👍🏾
It’s not easy to break from that…especially when you need to look at yourself and say “I was being a real shit person.” I’ve done it…it fucking sucks to have the self-reflection and see how you were being shit and having to undo that and try to be better every day. But in the end…it makes us better people, and that in turn makes us happier people.
Every minute of this video was worth watching. When I first heard someone say “boys don’t get raised” I thought of all the times as a little boy I avoided telling an adult something that was bothering because they would tell me to deal with it, or is not a big deal, or tell me “you’re a man”. Much of my childhood I remember being in my head. Dealing with my thoughts and emotions on my own and asking myself a lot how to feal about things because I didn’t have anyone to talk to about those things.
25y/o, I’m AFAB, but my 49y/o MARRIED dad has been listening to and repeating a lot of manosphere stuff in recent years. This man has 3 daughters and a wife (plus my brother who has thankfully not fallen for this bs), and any time I’ve tried to push back on his rhetoric he just goes on about how I don’t understand and then he just walks away while I’m mid-sentence. He speaks to my mother like she’s a toddler. He says rude shit about my little brother for not being “masculine” enough. He just sits at the kitchen table, drinking and watching “triggered libs,” Andrew Tate, and other misogynistic creators like JLP all day and ignores or condescends to us all day. I truly feel like the manosphere (among other ideologies) has stolen my dad from us.
That is really rough. I dont know what to say, but that i truly hope the best for you. Hopefully you will get your father back one day. I know how much it hurts to loose your father figure be that physicly or emotionaly.
@@jkuhede because his “opinion” directly leads to the constant dehumanization and aggressive, manipulative behavior he directs at his family and it’s caused long term stress and pain for everyone in the household. I could go on, but I don’t feel like wasting any more energy on an obvious troll.
@@jkuhede You must be anti-family if you support ideologies that encourage fathers to distance themselves from their wives and daughters. If a wife starting talking about hating men all day, you would blame her for ruining her family and leading her husband to divorce. This is a man leading his wife to divorce through hating women. Simple stuff my man.
It just occured to me the other day that creating insecurity in order to exploit people is a really fundamental form of evil in the human experience, and it has always had it's forms in all the past eras, and how many "traditional masculine roles" like soldiers and factory workers have also been forms of exploitation of insecurity - and the irony is that so many people think those roles are how things should be. Naah, you just got socialized into the idea, and are now suffering from a stockholm syndrome.
@@DisgruntledPeasant exactly. Ever since we are children, we're socialized into competition. One day, we beat Ali in grades or we sing better, we are given valuable labels, hey, you're so smart, you're such a good singer. The next day, Aria beats me and just as easily as those labels were taken from Ali and given to me, they will be taken from me and given to Aria. That's a blatantly volatile sense of self, you'd be identifying with things that are based on your actions, not what you are really. Every time you see that somebody is better than you in something you identify with, you compare yourself to them and feel that a part of your self has been threatened or taken. We are taught that the very goal of life, is gaining values that are defined to us by society and avoid being devalued. It's like we have to spend out entire lives gathering resources for an all out war against everybody around us. And this is such a normalized mindset, it's scary.
Glad to have videos like this to help me understand what’s going on with this shit on the internet. I am a 44 year old father of 3 boys 10 and under. I need to be educated on this front to make sure they don’t go down the manosphere rabbit holes.
You’re going to push your kids away if you follow FD, Macken, and tell your boys they are the problem because they’re toxic mansplainers that live under a patriarchy that they control and they’re oppressing women that get affirmative action but are still the victim. You should take away what you consider to be good advice from people on the far left like FD, but also watch some videos from Jordan Peterson and take away what you consider to be good points from him as well. Then give your boys a balanced diet of ideas from both sides, and leave it up to them to find their own ideology that suits them. Don’t force your own ideology down their throats. Thank you.
My son was struggling in school when he fell down the altright rabbit hole. His negative emotions were tone matched by these video's. When he found a school that better suited his needs he became happy again and politicaly left-wing. I have rebuked him a couple of times on things he said or did, but in the end it was finding a place that made him happy is what got him out.
One thing to help later on, don’t let our kids have phones too early, we grew up without them, it’s okay, but yeah, social media is so detrimental to middle school age and teenagers too. TikTok will make the brain rot. But you sound like a really good Father, having you in their lives will be so important and a good influence.
I gotta say, this analysis feels so spot on. I also had a 1 year phase and yes its the anger and disgust that draws you in. It is insidious and provocative enough to keep you coming back, but after a while i realised that those conversations were falling out of touch with my real experience as a friend and family member to actual women in the real world. you will never see a woman on these shows who is able to take down these arguments and make them as redundant as they are in normal life. because its a whole grift and doesn't really attempt to provide an equal or balanced argument. What makes it so effective it seems, is unless you take the effort to talk to people as people, and not talking to people as their gender, then it is very difficult to get out of that negative cycle and your conditioned attitude will be confirming itself more concretely, the more isolated you become. Young boys falling into this are so vulnerable to being completely brainwashed by these ideas, and subsequently fail to develop more mature and rounded attitudes to other people in general. I fear for their recovery tbh.
Yea, as a teenage dude i get blasted with this sort of content all the time even though i was never interested in it. A lot of my friends have been sort of pulled into this way of thinking and its scary to see how effective it is
Do you think your framing of relationships as a 'marketplace' really help the matter being discussed? Tbh, I think it only adds to the transactional aspect that a lot of manosphere types rely on for their rhetoric. It also seemed odd considering it made conclusions from the assumption that everyone is heterosexual. I'm not going to make huge assumptions about you from a short clip, I suspect you are great, but it felt like it was using the same false premises to come to a conclusion that manosphere types do.
I remember a time, a few years ago now, when I was browsing the r/askmen subreddit when I came across a post asking for positive voices in the Manosphere space because they were put off by how negative they all were. I remember pointing out that that wasn't really something they could find, because that's pretty much all the Manosphere is, but unfortunately, I don't think I suggested any alternatives (partly because I wasn't engaging with any at the time). I haven't thought about that post until literally watching this video but I'd like to think that, if I were in a similar situation today, I'd be able to offer some more constructive feedback and provide some more healthy sources to try instead
I genuinely tried to talk about unity, the reality that on avg? Mathematics show us guys & gals sleep with the exact same qty. of ppl, & that sl¢t·shaming indicates one prefers women who DISlike intercourse · which is hella R/-\pee. My comment was deleted by the poster, who then proceeded to threaten to R me · a few slurs thrown at me, etc... They may be the only ppl as hateful as the violent & overt ytsupremacists... But i really did try. I was kind & really tried to listen.
r/MensLib is an ACTUALLY good and progressive subreddit that has good discussions about masculinity and explicitly calls itself a pro-feminist space. There are some really good discussions happening there.
I got ADHD, and so long form videos like these are actually REALLY hard to sit through. I’m so pleasantly surprised that I was able to sit through this without getting bored. But ALSO, I’m autistic as well, and as other autistic women have pointed out in these comments, I have been bullied and made fun of my entire life and even now into adulthood, and I just adopted a cat and am focused on work. I don’t want to sh**t up schools or hurt people because I have a hard time in social settings, I just actively chose to opt out of society and people. I just go to work and come home, and that’s it
I have ADHD & OCD and might be on the spectrum, and I'm really happy you were able to find a way to cope with the struggles of autism in a healthy way. "Opting out" as you said makes life less painful/exhausting for me, too. My height dysphoria is probably the most painful part of my mental health problems. I felt ugly (too short) at 5'9.5" even when I had a girlfriend. I don't think I can live my whole life alone, but I'm not going to become bitter and destructive because of it. If my situation really is hopeless, I'll just choose to exit this world earlier than I wanted to.
that's a good point....the whole "i don't want to sh**t up schools or hurt people." it's hard to deal with mental illnesses/neurodivergency in a society that continously degrades it. but i'll never understand the people who genuinely hate an entire demographic of people due to societal problems.
I'm not diagnosed because there's significant stigma in the medical community for those who are where I am, so I can't really speak with "authority" so to speak, but after struggling with society at large for most of my life, I similarly "opted out". I don't really have the longest attention span, so I tend to bounce between short-to-mid-term interests a lot, but those tend to fulfill me much more than trying to get by "outside". Most of the people I interact with on a regular basis are similarly off on some axis, so my social circle is a confederation of weirdos who don't leave the house... and honestly, it works A+ for most of us. Like, I've developed enough social skills to "pass" as normal over the years, but the fact of the matter is I just don't really care anymore. The benefits of middle age are that people don't nag you for your eccentricities anymore, and when you opt out of parties with the "I have things to do at home" excuse, people actually believe you.
AuDHD here. I love video essays! But I play games at the same time I listen to them, therefore the understimulation doesn't kick in too much. I'm sorry to hear you're still experiencing bullying. I know what that's like because there are still people trying to bully me from time to time but the older we get, the less other bystanders take part in that. They tend to isolate the bully once we all hit 40 in a group. Once you're surrounded by older people who've raised children and have some general life experience, it gets better. Try to find some AuDHD and ASD IRL friends. You'll see that they are loyal and friendly.
@@bemystymiddle age is a blessing when you're neurodivergent, tbh. My friends are also weirdos who don't leave their houses. But it turns out that they all get their diagnoses at some point. My best friend from first grade told me that she's got "Asperger's" as she calls it. Diagnosed 2 weeks ago. Everyone from my youth has either ADHD, ASD or both.
As a woman who tried to write about Gamergate for uni in 2015 and got shot down by (male) faculty, thank you SO much for outlining those connections. I went on to work in video games and.. as you said, the tiki torches were NOT a surprise.
what's crazy to me when they talk about incels is how men can acknowledge that it's a human need to have sex and yet in the same breath can say that women deserve to die in pregnancy BECAUSE SHE HAD SEX and that is her fault..... make it make sense.
@@eveandaedrul and then they wonder why women wouldn't want to be with them.... i think incel is more of a brain disorder these men cannot be this dumb and if they are then i feel truly worried for them.
@madisonbrown6281 I think a lot of it is also narcissism. As someone who unfortunately grew up with narcissistic parents and family members, I was really shocked when I started seeing more of the modern red pill stuff and how a large majority of their statements are made purely out of ego, and even the simple act of ASKING them what they mean can result in them attacking you and claiming how you'll never be as smart as them if you "can't understand something so simple". Just a bunch of massive egos with incredibly sensitive feelings that want you to endlessly agree with them as you pat them on the back
If there is ONE THING I have been able to be proud of myself for, it’s that I NEVER got into the manosphere despite my depression, low self esteem and worsening mental health. I knew that, despite my suffering, to be arrogant and blame my suffering on others was a delusion. I found the problems from within.
Faith in men restored. Men like you are the reason why I haven't given up on finding the one for me. Stay strong my bro, us girls struggle too, we need to fight together against evil
I'm the same way. I'm neurodivergent and was socially awkward growing up, never had a GF until my early twenties. The only thing that saved me from going down the alt-right incel pipeline was a predisposition for self-blame. Whereas a lot of people tend to externalize internal problems, I would internalize all of my external problems. It is 100% a toxic trait, one that is greatly influenced by depression and low self-esteem, but as far as real world outcomes go, it is definitely the lesser of two evils, with me being the primary person that it harmed.
@@Tessy29klol, you're saying he's rare and a good example. Yet he is exactly the kind of guy who devolves into an incel fighting depression. You couldn't have proven the red pill less effortlessly
Fd I’m not gonna lie to you man. I discovered your channel when I was in need of genuine guidance in my life and every time you drop a video I feel like there’s a part of me that begins to heal just because of all the toxic programming that was placed in me as a child . you’re such a great role model for young men and we honestly don’t have a lot nowadays
The most insidious thing is when this take place in households. As a teen girl, with an incelish brother and incel uncle, this kind of rhetoric was not only bewildering and devaluing. But growing up in a conservative girl-blaming culture in an unsafe and predatory neighborhood, I was both in danger inside and outside my household. Not believed and held accountable for the actions of men 20, 30, sometimes more my senior. And it seemed no matter how I dressed or acted, there was always a part of me that they could pin on for why men treated me this way. Until I realized that I was expected to act in a way that was unliveable, the bar was too high and too convoluted. I was either too aggressive, too timid, whichever was the most conviemt excuse for why I attracted men, that was it. Growing up like this I never understood the female white middle class conservatives arguments that women wouldn't encounter range if they didn't go out late or dressed a certain way. Many women in my circumstances don't grow up in cushy middle class environments. They take public transportation, they work late nights and early morning. They are in danger 24/7 and home is psychological warfare.
Im 34 now, I fell into MGTOW around 27-28 after my I was cheated on by who I thought was the love of my life. Slowly graduated into redpill without actually realizing it. Funny thing is that even while I was knee deep in the space I still never felt like it was a mindset i should adapt to. I knew it was a horrible way to think but I had trouble escaping. My life didn't improve, my love life didn't improve (it got worse) and my mental health plummeted. I wish for every young man that enters that space to mature gracefully and escape the nonsense. The Manosphere has destroyed more men than it has created
I hate the fact that this giant engine feeds off of guys who experience something so many people experience whether that be heartbreak by falling out of love or being cheated on, being confused about life, about love, or about themselves. It’s so fucking gross and predatory these spaces exist to pull guys down and feed off of them like a life source. I’m so happy you were able to get out and so sorry you experienced that kind of heartbreak.
@@jeffreychandler8418 It just took some time for me. Had quote on quote come to Jesus moment about what type of man I wanted to be, what I found out is that I didn't hate women...I hated certain things about myself.i hated that I pretended to hate women, I hated that I started to abuse alcohol, a porn addiction developed. I was in a dark head space. It was harder since I found the space in my late 20s...much older than when most guys discover redpill. The change came when women I'm cordial with started to view me differently. One of my dearest friends said I turned hateful and my spirit had darkened. I took me almost 2 years to break all of those habits.
I always grew up with guy friends, as a girl. When I, and those friends, hit puberty it always confused me how differently we were treated by the world and just how lonely some of my friends became. I understand how 12 - 13 yr olds are the most vulnerable group. Its when you really become aware of how society treats you differently based on your sex and gender.
And race - living in a diverse family of multiple cultures it wasnt till school , 13 yrs, when white kids were like, "you're black!!!" Despite also having full white kids In my family .... hearing the other kids say this made an impression
@NonameSpaminbox man, you're late to the party. why does it always take you guys so long to show up? EDIT: nevermind, just checked account and you're either a bot or a disingenuous participant with no valid stance.
@NonameSpaminbox pretty crazy you openly admit to not interacting with the source material like that. I really appreciate the attempt to spin it into some weirdly self-superior stance, I guess? Thanks for playing chump.
Late diagnosed autistic adult here. This shit kinda stung, honestly. For the longest time autism was just "broken kid disease," we end up with a pretty awful relationship with the rest of the world. Think i gotta sit with ans interrogate this feeling some more
Amazing video.. I was say this working with alot of men at my job .. they looked at me crazy.. I’m a black women and educated just like them.. it was a crazy sad time
I remember being around 11 years old in 2012, using the iFunny app and constantly being fed casual misogyny. You know, the nonstop "women in the kitchen" type shit? I'm sure it had some kind of effect on me since I almost fell into the incel rabbit hole around 16 because I couldn't find any romantic encounters. Obviously, I'm not there now, but knowing that there are others like me kinda worries me.
Same man. I remember realizing around 13 years old that the meme i was viewing were really misogynistic (i.e girls boring boys cool and fun type stuff). It stopped me from advancing any further in the manosphere pipeline, i just wish it was more common for people to have those critical thinking moments with the content they consume.
I didn’t stay on iFunny long for that reason. It was really annoying to repeatedly see people demeaning my gender and anyone speaking out against it being buried in hate comments.
@@Discrete1998 This but for basically everything going on. The constant disparaging of the differently abled, women, non whites, plus the background radiation of insane conspiracy theories really turned me off. I don’t know why I ever used it in the first place
As a woman who's been very online since my childhood in the early 2000s, it's been interesting to see the semi-ironic/edgy misogynistic jokes evolve into an ideology of earnest woman-hating. I guess it goes to show that you should watch what people "joke" about, especially if they "joke" about the same things over and over.
same man, luckily the closest i ever got to inceldom was when i was 15 and starting looking at a looksmax forum (diet incel forum disguised as male self improvement) because i girl i really liked was using me for emotional support and taking advantage of me. i stayed with that sort of spite for women and incel opinions until coming across hasan talking about incels and explaining how incels are men being taken advantage of by grifters reaffirming and validating their misogynistic opinions. his video made me look inward, start working on myself and stop blaming women for my shitty actions. i became a better man because of that. you may not like him for his politics, but he helped me break out of that edgy 4chan incel phase.
I've never been a manly man, I never had the mentality some of these people had of being defined by my monetary value, and I can tell it frustrates some of my family members and in turn destroyed my self worth for a long time, the series of videos you've done on the manosphere have confirmed the thoughts I had spent years wrapping my head around and even though I mostly always had the same thoughts about it but was unaware of the deeper dangers of that mentality. I still struggle with my self worth on a daily basis but I think you've given a lot of guys hope and awareness that the end all be all of a man isn't inherently an irrational misogynistic meathead, that there is relevance to finding an inner peace separate from prescribed nonsense spewed on the internet. Thank you to you and everyone who contributed to the series and the numerous other videos on your channel.
any "society" that wants to see you vile or better is better left behind. social media bubbles are nice examples of such "societies" (networks of people basically, for simplicity there's no need to dive further into scientific specifications)
today i learned the manosphere skews really young. Im 38 and i thought it was for guys like me who had a divorce or maybe lost a long term partner and were reentering the dating pool. knowing they are manipulating kids is insane to me.
I'm 32 and saw manosphere rhetoric on fringe websites/forums in my late teens/early 20s in the early 2010s. It was a mix of young guys who eventually became incels and redpillers as well as "men's rights activists (MRAs)" who went through horrible divorces or got cheated on. Some of the MRAs would try to "prepare" the younger guys for what they'd face in later stages of life with women. Really messed up stuff.
Young boys are the most active on various platforms. They are the ones who create "best of" clips of manosphere content like the little fans they are which further boosts this content. Grown men would less likely have the time or "fan boy" energy to engage like this.
I mean adolescents have been the first choice for advertising for decades. I still remember hours and hours of toy ads in the early 2000s. And at the end of the day the influencers want the same thing as the toy companies: attention and money. Hell, same goes for the platforms. Selling to kids is lucrative and everyone wants a piece. People in their 30s and 40s often have more perspective, more control over their lives, and frankly they have bills to pay so it's harder to convince them to fund your nonsense.
As a woman who is probably autistic, I've been thinking for a while about the connection between autistic men and online far-right ideologies. I think many of us are aware that a disproportionate number of 4channers, incels, etc. are on the spectrum, but until the video that responded to you, everyone seemed to be afraid to touch the subject--and understandably so; progressive-minded people don't want to stigmatize a disability. I'm glad we're finally addressing the topic with the nuance and sensitivity that it deserves.
That hesitance inhibits one’s ability to explore the extent of which neurodivergence makes boys on the spectrum vulnerable and how patriarchal structures can weaponize it we know 75% of autistic girls have experienced SA especially in childhood this is the other side of that filthy coin.
As an autistic man I can confirm this is indeed part of the problem. What makes it worse is that autistic traits like being overly rational or having poor insight in to once emotional state is often framed as "toxic masculinity". I think the left fails many autistic men because they don't have a way of talking about these things in a constructive way other than "just change". I can't talk about my feelings when I am not aware of them. Patriachy doesn't help, but it's also not the cause of every problem men have.
Dude I can't tell you how much I appreciate you being clear that the data you collected has not been done so in a rigorous manner. I want people to understand when they are presented with data they need to doubt the viability of it until the process has been vetted r. Samples like these are still valuable but it is really good to hear you be the one to tell us to take it as a sample and not a study.
I really appreciate the conversations around how physical touch and community are actual needs, not too far behind food and shelter. It would be unthinkable to our ancestors, honestly.
I honestly believe this is the main reason a lot of people go to church. The church I grey up in and the ones I would visit would have a 5-10 minute period at the beginning where everyone would walk around shaking hands and hugging. I imagine its the most skin-on-skin contact many people have in their week.
@@Hyphaenation_livelol😂. This is actually true. Though I’ve gone to church my whole life I was an incel in the late 90’s early 2000’s before there was a name for it. And did realize that one of the benefits of going to church on Sunday I always could count on a nice hug from one of the women at church. And if I dressed up I would get complimented on how nice I looked. Kind of sad but it got me through until I finally found my way out of that dark period in my life.
@Makehimfamous I know this was a long time ago but That's great and I'm happy to hear you managed to pull yourself out of inceldom before the echo chamber that is the internet pulled you further down. Side note, Back in the early 2000s I thought the internet would do nothing but improve the world. I honestly believed it and I've accepted that I was wrong. It hurts sometimes to think about what could have been but I've transitioned to just making my life and the lives of the ones I love better/comfortable.
@@Hyphaenation_live Yep, and leaving religion or getting shunned by your religion can be really difficult because all of a sudden you lose people who have been your family. People who will hug you and come pick you up from the side of the road if your car breaks down...
I dunno why but I imagined FD getting pieced up in a Tekken match, the guy kept givin him that rematch and he just kept getting smacked down and his tag name was some kind of dumb red pill reference and FD got so upset that he made an over hour and a half long video about, ya know, MANOSPHERE SUCKS! 😂
"to get that reminder that not everyone is on this bullshit" this is pretty much exactly why I watch you/noah/many others. I try to minimize my contact with manosphere content, usually just hiding channels that are too focused on it; but I also know that I can't keep a blind eye to it, so having channels like yours, where I can stay up to date, get a somewhat nuanced overview, and also be able to keep my distance from having to engage directly. Not to mention just to help my sanity that the world isn't falling completely apart and at least SOME people actually notice how bad these things are getting...
That's what initially kept me here back when. I despise that entire sphere, and will never really understand how people fall into it. But I know enough to know that I can't turn a totally blind eye to it, so people like FD and Foreign are how I split the difference. It keeps me informed while still keeping a good distance. Plus it doesn't totally screw up my recommendeds for the next 2+ months.
I remember once when I was in the military and going through some shit mentally (mainly: that I shouldn't be in the military) I was talking with someone about my bad luck in dating. To clarify: it was quite literally bad luck, I wasn't looking for something super committed but every time I got into a casual relationship either the other person had a total change of heart or she got stationed somewhere else. It was all reasonable situations and none of it was bad because I learned a lot about relationships growing up. It was a such is life thing, and I was still engaging on my own terms but I was just a little bummed. I remember telling this person "yeah I don't really date. If something happens that's fine but..." and I was about to explain that I was only going to start looking for commitment once I was no longer in shitty ass military, this person goes "oh, are you lie, a Man Going There Own Way? Because I totally get that." Mind you this was a cis woman who was married and who was probably just totally middle of the road in terms of someone in the military, but I remember thinking to myself "fuck me is that the vibe I give off?" It got in my head for like weeks. Every relationship insecurity I had manifested at once. I was only aware of the thing because of stuff I saw online making fun of guys, but I immediately starting looking through stuff within the phenomena. The sexism was obvious immediately and I couldn't jive with it as someone who grew up with older sisters and women and queer friends. I started looking at normal dating social media places but I specifically sought out opinions of straight women and queer people. I started to recognize that there WERE aspects of my personality that were primary bricks in the build but were affecting my presentation. I was trying too hard to hype up my accomplishments, I was avoiding discussing passions of mine that weren't "cool" or that may have been interpreted as lame. Really everything was just me getting close to what I really felt and letting sleeping dogs lie. The only "change" I made was doing more grip and forearm workouts because that was like the only stereotype I consistently saw from people interested in straight guys lol. But really as soon as I got out the military and got a stable job, literally everything started working out and I'm super happy with my partner now, who is someone who my friends literally says "where were you all of his life?" when they meet her. I look back at that day and my reaction the weeks after and thinking "thank god I had the tools to avoid the toxicity" and I worry about others who were in similar circumstances or who are more alienated than me going down that same track but not having the off ramp. I guess the point of this anecdote is to say I appreciate people like F.D, Noah, etc that do provide an offramp. The content is always gonna be there, the motivations will always be present under fascism, capitalism, and fascist capitalism, but there is validity in the whole "alternative" aspect of this issue.
Hell yeah, grats on the introspection and self awareness that lead you to grow in a positive way. As you recognized it’s not an easy thing, especially with capitalist alienation leaving us often broken. Your post is motivation material for sure
Dating in the military especially is pretty toxic from my experience, whether you're dating civilians or other military members. When I was in, everything was so temporary and people were only looking for hook-ups at most. Some people got lucky and found long-term relationships, but I feel like I'd see them leave the military not soon after. Once I got out and I was being authentic, I definitely got more attention when I was in college even though it was still a challenge.
@@Anarchowolf yeah that was my experience as well. It helped I wasn’t in a military town or anything, and was back in an area similar to what I grew up in. One of the first girls I dated even asked me why I had such a drought and I was like “ever been to Norfolk, Virginia? No? Well if you ever go it’ll make more sense.”
The “commodification of our grief” 😮 truly thats how we’re exploited in this capitalistic world. Young lonely men vilify women for their pain/suffering when woman are equally suffering loneliness/pressures of modern life (economy, technology, debt, stress)
I honestly don't think that you can compare male loneliness to female loneliness. Being lonely but having an abundance of romantic options gives a massive boost to your self esteem.
my friend Jamie Peck is a successful only fans model as her day job so she can make communist podcasts... could definitely see her as an interview subject!
The manosphere videos actually helped me finally see, if anything, how some of my behaviors would look like I agreed with those men, so it helped me take a look inwards to just check if I was being unfair or if my behavior was directly or indirectly hurting others. I definitely don't want to be conflagrated with those types of people.
Just submitted a funding proposal for some research into a topic that no one else seems to see potential in at my university or really academia wide. I've been dreading getting a response back like you got for your Manosphere stuff. Professors and researchers like to research the same shit, over and over and over and over and over again with slight variances each time. Education institutions are so resistant to change, ironically
William Costello did some research into incels. Is that the sort of research you were referring to? It was a small sample, but they're likely to do more expansive research.
@@toomuchinformation No, nothing like that. Let's just say that the intellectual merits of some entertainment mediums are not taken into account because of their audience, and I'm trying to call bullshit on that. Here's an extended metaphor to keep me from spilling the beans or doxxing myself lol. Say you have a barrel of a fine wine; this wine represents the story that a writer is trying to tell. The glass you put it in is the medium for your message. I don't drink much, but I know that every type of wine has its own type of glass, and I also know that there is a stigma against using a box over a glass bottle of wine. I'm weird in this metaphor. I don't like glassware, bottles or any of the traditional vessels. Manufacturers have come out with a completely new method to drink and store wine. But because it's not the traditional way with traditional packaging, wine connoisseurs are missing out on some of the best vino, getting caught up on the container that it exists in as if we're here to study the container only. WE'RE HERE FOR THE WINE
@@TheMagnanimousMany "The message is the medium" - Marshall McCluhan, Understanding Media. I understand your metaphor, but the above phrase is still true. The vessel IS part of the story, which is why there is so much resistance to separating message and medium and it's interesting to ponder why this resistance exists. Talking about the Manosphere in this video and using your wine metaphor.....the m'sphere often paints this bleak future for women as being alone with their boxed wine and cats. It's always BOXED wine, never BOTTLE of wine because the different vessels convey a different message.
@@toomuchinformation This particular medium has been litigated for decades in academia, but they still haven't opened the box so to speak. It's like they keep reading the label over and over again, saying how poorly designed it is, but they haven't tasted it yet. I understand that the medium is a part of the message, but for many academics with the topic I'm researching, the medium is the ENTIRE message. They're dismissive that anything valuable can be learned from it on principle. I know that my metaphor maybe muddies the water a bit, but I'm trying to keep some stuff close to the chest.
I have 2 daughters, and my 7yo hangs out with a few boys in my mom's neighborhood when we go over on weekends. One is a really sweet kid, the other is a bossy asshole. He is definitely raised with those toxic ideals of masculinity, I've met his dad. But I've noticed that just being around a girl who isn't intimidated by him and coming over and hearing how we talk with kids and each other has made him chill out over the past year. My daughter is more than happy to explain to him about having 2 dads and how one is trans (she's likes being the LGBTQ expert among them). He's also really impressed that I'm a molecular scientist; he asks me about science whenever he can. Hopefully, he won't end up falling into the manosphere. Not when one of his best friends is a girl with queer parents who can literally pick him up and throw him (that child is crazy strong).
That’s awesome - confident kindness can often overpower a bully, depending on various circumstances and factors. I have observed teenage boys acting tough, putting down “kid movies” or something, and I’ll confidently say “aww come on, that movie will be cool!” And they’ll be like “oh… well… huh 🤔 maybe he’s right” I’m also a man who cosplays “anime girls” a lot, and people will make fun of me - but I confidently joke back to them without bullying them, and without getting defensive, and sometimes they say “oh…. Huh… maybe I was wrong to judge 🤔”
I'm autistic and I have multiple mental illnesses. Thank you SO much for not resorting to any form of ableism or sanism in your section about autism, while still pointing out bad behavior shouldn't be excused. Thank you for pointing out the studies that prove abuse victims usually don't become perpetrators. _Thank you._ I will say that not all autistic people dislike being infantilized, as long as it helps people treat them with the level of support they need with their developmental delays/disorder. For example I'm, relatively, a little childish. Sometimes/often I need people to explain big concepts like I'm a kid, even though I'm 26. But yeah generally the low support needs autistic community dislikes being infantilized, but that's just them
He referred to non-autistics as "neuro-typical" which is false because there is no model of a "typical neurology" and immediately went on to clarify "neurotypical" as meaning "NORMAL PEOPLE". N O R M A L P E O P L E A R E N O T I N T E R E S T E D I N H E L P I N G U S B E C A U S E T H E Y A R E O U R I L L N E S S.
I’ve always felt that these “manosphere” spaces are literally just “safe spaces” that prevent you from personal growth. They present you with what you are comfortable with and reinforce your existing biases and ideals. They don’t question these feelings rather they use them as a tool to further fuel your emotions
They’re not really safe spaces since if you bring any small sense of self awareness and introspection you are alienated immediately. A safe space, imo, would value introspection and self awareness.
@@juvedoo99Exactly, its more like a “stifle space” but I’m not sure that has the same ring to it. I think of safe spaces typically like therapy, a safe space for growth and vulnerability. And spaces that are echo spaces but stomp out true growth or vulnerability are not safe.
I'm a clinical mental health counselor who works with 16-24 year olds. And most if my male clients will at least reference the manosphere as a positive source of information. Some of my female clients are dating some of those same pro-manosphere guys and are in psychologically abusive relationships. They are property to be dominated and ran.
This must be your experiance. Multiple studies shown that Lesbian couples have a substantially higher levels of physical abuse. But hey your practice might say otherwise.@diallo1347
@@diallo1347 Wait, how can gay couples have higher physical abuse if said physical abuse is more prevalent in heretosexual couples? Or was the first sentence only comparing lesbian and gay couples?
@@graeschnahmoffski5716it sounds like it was only first addressing the lesbian couple. then they shared information about abuse in heterosexual couples.
@@diallo1347 also, the study that most cite as lesbians being the most physical a busive didn't look at the actual study properly. The study asked if any couples had experiences any a buse at any point, and lesbians pointed out that only when they were in relationships with men before being with women But that narrative doesn't fit the manosphere belief so they conveniently ignore that very small, but very important, part.
I think data tracking over IP address can also play a role. I do internet research as my job and work from home, and when I research a company my husband will end up with ads on his phone for it. I started watching this video on Friday and came back to it today and now he's getting ads for Jordan Peterson content. So if one person in the household is consuming content, maybe an older sibling or a parent, even if it's a video like this one, I'm guessing it's possible the younger people in the household will have their recommendations affected as well.
Man one time I thought about an old movie I hadn’t seen in years during a walk outside, and by the time I made it back a review for the movie was suggested on TH-cam 😂
Yeah, sometimes when I'm watching a video, I'll feel like googling something that was mentioned - or even just a random thought that was prompted by what was in the video - and I only get as far as a couple of characters in before Google auto-fills the very specific, left-field question I was going to ask it. It creeps me the hell out.
The only “dating coach” I ever found worth listening to was Stephen Erdman. He taught really innocent stuff like getting the negative assumptions out of your head, and replacing them with the assumptions that 1. Most people are potential friends until proven otherwise. 2. Most women are kind, so the approach is nothing to fear.
Most women are not kind. Neither are most guys. And even if they are kind, that doesn't mean they'd be into you. Kindness has nothing to do with being interested in dating someone. If anything, they'd be too nice to reject and end up hurting themselves.
I can, however, think of reasons to still not approach. And if you have a disorder that makes it difficult or impossible to gauge a situation...then it might be wise to stick to some rules of thumb that might discourage one from approaching, but would also spare others discomfort or worse.
okay i just need to celebrate HOW HAPPY I AM that you interviewed autistic people for this video and that you addressed the ways that movements based on readings of vague social cues (like gender) can target neurodivergent people differently. i've noticed a huge issue online lately where progressive people will claim to be against ableism, but then also assume that neurodivergent people will pick up on the exact same cues they do. i'm likely autistic (diagnosed OCD & ADHD, but pretty sure about the autism too) and i've gotten a lot of comments from supposed "allies" claiming that i'm stupid because i didn't pick up on a certain gender cue or a certain piece of "socialization" as a woman. i think there's a HUGE issue with ableism online and i'm just SO GLAD that you addressed it in this way, without excusing any manosphere behavior, but taking the time to understand the nuances. THANK YOU
I'm 21 years old and the emphasis on being in a relationship that I've noticed my generation have is staggering both men and women. I've heard 19 and 20 years talk about wanting to find a partner before they get "too old" as if they're not literally in the prime of their lives with many years ahead of them to figure life out. capitalism and patriarchy and the people who perpetuate its ideals like the manosphere has convinced people that if you're not rich, married, and living in a huge house by the time youre 28 then you're a failure, and with social media and all the ways people can get this messaging that message is louder than ever
Facts ngl im 21 as well in college and am always stressed if i dont find anyone in college i wont find anyone after mainly because there is not alpt of third spaces after college that are thriving so i feel it would be harder to meet someone
Trust me, it wasn't any different back in the mid 00s. I remember being 14 and every movie that I saw either implicitly or explicitly told its male audiences that they were loses if they couldn't get a GF, and that having sex and having a girl who will repeatedly have sex with you, will automatically fix all of your problems.
I just got married at 30 last year and it broke my heart to hear my sister in law talking about feeling like she's "behind" because she's 23 and not in a relationship. She and my husband both come from a more conservative culture than I do, so I think that plays a part, but I agree that among my gen Z friends and acquaintances there does seem to be a trend around that idea.
The idea that there is a way to script your conversations to control women or other people in-general. This is really appealing to a young man growing up with an autistic mind. The idea that there is some sequence of words and actions that makes a person "normal" or desirable. I can see how, especially children, will latch onto this manosphere-pandering content and internalize the rhetoric. I can really appreciate how lucky I was to have the good influences in my life, when I look around these parasocial spaces like youtube and FB.
I’m generally not someone who comments-I tend to lurk and learn. However, your content often makes me want to engage in the discourse, not to undermine but to question and contribute. But just when I’m ready to jump in, you pull a “bait and switch,” addressing topics and systemic details at the end that I feared might be overlooked. It’s a humbling experience, and kudos to you for that. One thing I’d like to add to the conversation is that I struggle with the statement, "It's more work to raise a boy to be problematic than to raise a nice kid." While I agree that it would take significant effort to create an “Andrew Tate-type” figure, this perspective can unintentionally demean individuals who face challenges in parenting due to familial trauma (from either parent) or socioeconomic circumstances. Parenting is complex for many reasons, and it often involves breaking generational cycles of distorted viewpoints. While I agree that children are inherently kind, sustaining that kindness amidst societal pressures can be challenging, and it should be seen as a rewarding effort rather than an easy one. Figures like Tate may be influential, but the individuals who latch onto this rhetoric are often those who have experienced neglect or have had misguided parental role models.
16:23 I think the reason why these manosphere characters tend to be men of colour with patriarchal beliefs is because a patriarchal systems grants them *power* in a world where they have *less power than the white man*
Bro the only reason black people are in America is because are ancestor were gay and there were egalitarian and matrilineal societies (Yes there were patriarchies, the continent was diverse asf) pre-colonial Africa.
@@mewtwo4042 Thought slavery happened in America because it was a big colonised land with inexperienced people that quickly needed free labour to make a livelihood. The pilgrims used Abrahamic religions to justify the system because it had a framework on how to own a slave and later scientific racism. While Africa had a multitude of reasons as to why it happened, the main one being slavery has always fluctuated throughout the world because there are economic incentives for people to pursue slavery.
@@mewtwo4042LOL. Where are you getting this information from. And by the way most societies have gay people in them. Why are you trying to make it a race issue. It's not. You think there weren't white gay men before we came along?😂😂😂
@@ChillingTales12I’m not speaking from hostility here at all, but I am genuinely a bit taken aback at the nuance autistic men are granted over autistic women (such as the segment in this video) despite them both being in that neurodivergent group. Autistic women are not really given that grace or have studies done on them and they’re just as vulnerable and susceptible to falling into mindsets like this except instead of incels, they’re pick mes. I’m not saying autistic men have it better than autistic women but I am saying, I’m experiencing seeing this nuance in real life and I genuinely did not know this group of people were being granted that and I’m glad it’s happening and it needs to happen further
@@ChillingTales12I’m not sure what that had to do with me talking about people who identify as and are socialized as men and women and I think this is a separate conversation to have but I don’t think trans folks are bad or anything if that’s what you’re getting at lmao. I’m sure they have their own unique experience that they can speak from personally and I encourage them to
I really appreciate these videos, my brother has been using more and more concerning rhetoric and I just didn't know how to begin to understand him. These videos have helped me ,as an AFAB person, to gain perspective and hopefully find common ground with him again.
1:13:10 I'm glad you put these two clips in. I really hate the way a lot of online anti-incel types engage with people who really don't fit the profile. It's just straight up bullying in a lot of cases. All it does is reaffirm their inadequacies.
I think it's important to balance criticism of "male [edit: and female] entitlement" with genuine empathy for how painful it is to not experience any love or intimacy, especially for extended periods of time. There's a lot of people out there who feel hopeless who don't have entitled attitudes, and a lot of entitled people can be led out of their mindset with proper guidance.
@@simplyharkonnen[Edit: I was not talking about sympathy/"mollycoddling" from "the people they victimize"/women at all - just want to be clear.] ... Hostile men should absolutely be confronted, stopped, and reported to the police if they did anything criminal. I'm sorry if I came across like I meant anything different. But there are men who have entitled beliefs who bottle it up where it's harder to change there minds. And there are men who express entitled attitudes to women after rejection ("Why I am I not good enough for you?") but don't harass/keep pursuing them and move on. I'm not defending these people's thoughts/words, but I think talking to/about them the same as actual predators for their beliefs would backfire and push them into denial that their beliefs are wrong. [Edit: I'm talking about their friends and people they talk to online - NOT women who rejected them.]
@@MachFiveFalcon Okay let me rephrase: Men-as-‘individuals’ are not owed sympathy, good-faith engagement, or really anything at all by people victimised by men-as-class. Want to be treated better? Do better. Each and every one of those things is CHOOSING to be the way they are.
The thing about the "get a hobby!" advice for lonely men is that it runs totally counter to the way people are usually taught to go after the things they want in life. In most other parts of life, if we want something, like a dream job or wealth or fitness or success in some art form, we're told to actively work hard at that goal as much as possible in the hopes of getting our shot at success. For men (and everyone else tbh) who are starved for touch, affection & intimacy, it is incredibly aggravating to be told to do something entirely unrelated to dating ("get a hobby") that will potentially help you meet people, because "meeting people" isn't intimacy, it isn't touch or affection, it isn't the goal. And I think we all understand that you can't turn up to a new hobby, like a dance class, explicity looking to pursue people there who will give you those things - that makes you a creeper. Personally, I hated every minute of using dating apps and I consider myself lucky to be in a relationship which didn't necessitate the use of one, but I think dating apps don't get the respect they actually do deserve - they are a tool to clearly and unambiguously seek out exactly what you want, instead of having to passively "be yourself, have some offline interests, and hope love comes along one day". To be clear, I think that the advice to be always on the grind is also bad when given for the other forms of success I mentioned, it perpetuates the false narrative that the world is a meritocracy and simply working really hard at something will eventually pay off, when in reality high levels of success are usually down to luck, with competency being an important secondary concern. But, at least with those other forms of success, you *can* grind away at them, becoming more competent and hoping to get your shot. With relationships, a lot of realistic advice gives no suggestion to **do** anything that will provide immediately observable progress towards the goal, like your bank balance going up does for people who want to be rich. This is why people like Andrew Tate sell the myth that being jacked and having Bugattis will attract women - because at least being jacked and buying Bugattis are concrete goals to work towards, regardless of whether women give a shit. There was discourse recently that "the left gives brain-dead advice to young men", but in reality the left just doesn't lie to men about the messy, complicated, and unordered ways the world works. There's no bank balance, there's no number to track, for finding love.
I agree with so much of what you're saying, but I think that "self-improvement" can be positive when it's not redpill nonsense and not paired with false expectations. Not everyone can become immensely wealthy or become "jacked", but growing a career and becoming fitter can help men get more dates. When you can't find love, those "concrete goals" are all you have and feel a lot better than nothing. It just shouldn't be seen as the "end all be all".
I understand how people with linear, goal-focused thinking would be turned off by more circuitous advice. It’s probably frustrating. But it works. Just more slowly. The way it helps is by assisting in rounding a person out. Especially people with little experience socializing with others. As a cis woman, alarms go off when a cis man laser focuses on you, without ever having interacted with you before. You get the strong sense that this person only sees you as an attractive member of the opposite sex. As for your inner workings…they’re pinning what they hope you are on you. So much uncomfortable expectation to be just like their daydream, and save them. It feels like being a placeholder. So a group activity over a long period of time, where people let down their defenses, where you get to appreciate people’s quirks and passions…that’s really beneficial. I sometimes get the idea that some cis men know that women don’t like to be objectified, but THEY would like to be objectified. Because it would be so much easier than having to be funny, or interesting, or competent at something. And women are sick of being objectified because it’s been happening since we were children. It means very little. But someone who gets to know your personality, your intelligence, your accomplishments…that feels amazing. Even more so when put up against someone who only values your little waist, big tits, and hips. Real life interactions are so important in order not to “other”.
@@tesselate8nowait262 That's really great advice I wish I had a while back lol. For socially awkward/shy guys, it can feel impossible to stand out in group activities. But, as you said, you need to develop social skills before trying to date. And you're right about some men wanting to feel objectified. Not only does it feel more "concrete" and stable than accomplishments mixed in with the ups and downs of life, it also removes doubts like "Maybe she's not physically attracted to me - she only likes my personality, career, or money." Which as you said, is the reverse for women. And I'm NOT saying those feelings men face are good. It's just the reality of self-doubt I and other men experience. I think we all want to be loved for all aspects of who we are.
@@MachFiveFalcon thing is self-improvement doesn't actually make you more attractive to women. I should know, I've been doing it for years and the number of women attracted to me is zero We should stress to young men that self-improvement is purely for themselves and that women don't care so don't get caught up in what they think
@@tesselate8nowait262 as a man I would LOVE to be objectified! I hate that women are attracted to shallow stuff like humour and confidence and personality. I want to be appreciated for who I am
Lindsey Ellis, if your reading every comment here. Thanks for doing a voice over, i will continue to listen to your nebula content but i cant comment/upvote there.
His salary buys less, but his pride begs him to say, “The woman in my life doesn't have to work, and I like it that way.” What he really may mean is that although his harem has only one occupant at a time, he does not want her wandering about too freely without the veil that the home provides. He is not nearly as secure in his masculine role as he would have others believe, and he allows his mate’s growing independence to threaten him emotionally.” Men’s Liberation Jack Nichols 1975
Have you noticed how expensive everything has become? My girl doesn't have go work, but if she chose to, I wouldn't be complaining about the extra money 😂.
I knew a guy who actively obstructed his gf from getting a drivers license or academic qualifications, and would sabotage her employment, to keep her as dependent as possible. It was so fucked up. I was as angry at her as at him, she chose to stay with him and go back to him for years. Watching those 2 implode was the closest I got to being an incel (I had a crush on her and considered myself 'friendzoned', of course).
I’m a lonely disabled 22yo, so I really appreciated the segment about disability and loneliness. As a disabled person, a lot of the time I feel like I’m not allowed to talk about my own loneliness, about my needs and desires for touch and intimacy as to not make everyone around me uncomfortable. It’s even harder (for me) as a straight disabled man because a lot of the discourse around disability and dating are typically dominated by people trying to date men (straight women and gay men), not saying their perspectives aren’t valid or useful, but having a disabled man talk about his experiences on trying to date women, just feels more relatable and validating to me. It just makes me feel less alone seeing someone as close to me as possible, struggling with the same things I am. I’d be lying if I said that I’m still not a little frustrated with my loneliness, but I think making a video talking about my difficulties with self confidence and feeling deserving of love and reaching out to other disabled people on their experinces, would be a much better use of my time than sitting here bitter on my phone lol. (I’m going blind in both my eyes btw, Retinitis Pigmentosa and ADHD)
I am your same age but I am a girl. Can I pray for your healing? God healed me of some chronic illnesses that had no cure. You can be healed if you believe
You are still very young and will have so many opportunities to meet people. For reference, I am 35, straight cis woman with no disability or mental illness, and I've been single for the last 12 years. My issue is that I have too much self esteem for most men to handle and I don't let people mistreat me... so it's not necessarily about being able bodied or disabled (though of course it makes it harder). Life is kind of random with stuff like love... This is kind of a weird way to do it but I am trying to be encouraging. 😅
Thank you for being so candid and open in sharing your experience. People find community when they share their experience, but often they feel they are the only one in their situation and remain quiet. I hope you are encouraged to just continue to open and share and find community 🫶🏾
I thought "incel" meant "involuntary celibate." I have always felt like a "reject." And nothing can seemingly fix that. I learned not to be angry about things I have no control over. I am a much happier person these days for that. Much more well adjusted.
F.D, I should thank you for including us autistic in your research, because we are often ignored or straight up excluded from researches involving the lack of friends, family support, relationship and other social researchs that may or may not involves the manosphere, most of us are ostracized, most of us never had a relationship with a partner, we are literally alienated from society because we are the weird ones that nobody wants to make contact with unless if its for mocking and shaming us, making us have social anxiety, depression, rejection anxiety, we are so vulnerable and the world is so aggressive against us, not even our family seems to accept us
My brother is raising a boy, and while I know he's really engaged in his son's life and wants his son to be loving and kind, I'm so glad people make videos like this
As an Autistic woman: Thank you!!! Thank you for talking about the elephant in the room in such a nuanced and empathetic way. Making space for Autistic people's loneliness and social struggles, addressing the con artists who exploit that, all without letting incels/blackpilled-/redpilled men off the hook.
But it’s not just autistic people who struggle in dating, you have people across the neurodivergent spectrum that have issues in dating too (ADHD, schizophrenic, bipolar, depression, anxiety)
As a UK mum.. single parent of a son... I appreciate the commentary of this channel...as a direct antidote to the whole 'Tate' vibe .. It sure 'helped/helps', me xX☮️ Thank you
I can't wrap my head around how someone can claim being an "alpha male" while also being a dutiful follower of other men who tell them what kind of man they should be. I can't imagine anything more beta than that. I also love that they insist that there's no gender spectrum, but then went ahead and invented their own (alpha, beta, sigma, soy boy, etc etc).
Well, I mean, I think this whole thing spawned from Omegaverse fanfiction anyway and the manosphere just rebranded it, so... Also, if you don't know what Omegaverse fanfiction is, um...keep it that way
Bro also pointed out that masculinity has always been questioned and there's no hard evidence of there ever being a time in which real men were set in stone.
@@eggsandbacon892 I wonder what a 'sigma' would be in the ABO context... Man, it would be hilarious to see a competent author pull off adding that to the ABO spectrum.
one other factor about neurodivergence is that it also makes you more vulnerable to dopamine manipulation and emotional manipulation that gets you addicted to social media. i know it's super common with my adhd friends, even though they're addicted to doomscrolling instead of the manosphere, their brain is more vulnerable to getting stuck on consuming content
I like that you address the neurodivergent factor as part of what may lead people into these spaces! I'm Autistic and the challenges that come with that are often relatively invisible. Just hearing people say that these barriers are real is validating, and I think that may be part of the pull of communities that offer an outlet of anger and frustration. They misdiagnose the cause of that of course. But if nobody is talking about the actual causes, men are going to look for people who are offering answers. Thank you for talking to First as Tragedy and letting him share his understanding of ableism and systemic discrimination. I understand this isn't your main focus but I greatly respect your insights into masculinity and the discussions happening in this space. I think the issues around how neurodivergent people interface with male identity probably needs more attention. No big deal but you are probably my favourite content creator on this platform. So you being willing to look at this subject with your characteristic thoughtfulness and empathy gives me some hope that more discussions will happen both on and off-line to help create more positive masculine identities. This is meaningful for neurodivergent men especially, but as you mention working towards shifting ideals around masculinity will probably reduce the incidence of harm by men towards other people (be they women, non-binary people, or just other men). I also really like the parts you shared from The Bully Society by Jessie Klein. What she says about the cultural changes that happened during and after Reagan maps really well onto what Tragedy talking about. Klein points out that 'Increasingly, success was defined in terms of power, economic attainment and social status'. This is the ideal that Tragedy talks about as 'finally achieveing the desire of... normativity', the thing which Manosphere personalities are selling. Despite being Autistic I'm relatively privileged in terms of race and normative appearance. I can only imagine that Autistic and neurodivergent people at intersections of systemic disadvatage - like racism or physical disability - may find capitalistic patriarchal culture even more oppressive. This flip side being that positive counter-examples like yourself (and Foreign, and CJ the X) may be even more meaningful to young Autistic men of colour. There's other stuff to discuss. I've been thinking about women and enbies on the spectrum lately, and I'm very glad you point out that autistic women can *also* struggle with loneliness. I love your respect and support for women. I'm happy that Eddie mentions (in passing) asexuality and aromanticism. I'm asexual myself, and ten years ago nobody would have even thought to mention our community. The need for physical contact that Eddie talks about is still very much present for a lot of us, just expressed in a different way. In conclusion, I think you did good work here. Why do we raise men with the ideal of being 'strong' instead of patient or creative? Identity is such a complex fabric weaved from many strands. Thank you for bringing in different voices to help paint a more nuanced picture of what men are taught, and some of the factors that have brought us into the world where we are in now.
49:06 " if we're looking at optimising engagement, we are often looking at amplifying strong emotions, and *disincentivising nuance* " is a fascinating take /gen
Not really. Like the left isn't a Monolith. You don't have to share all views to be a leftist. There os no organization that tests you and I think that understanding is an important part to let go of finding a community where everyone agrees on every single thing to building connections that are loving and kind. I think it's bery dishonest to paint the left as so scary that incels are afraid to stop hating women.
@@M.I.N.A. All political views nowadays are nothing but a cespit of toxicity. I dont think you should follow tate nor hasan abi both are sides from the same coin which is extremism sucking away any individuality
@@Calisthenics_Enjoyer I just said that's not how it works. Neither Tate nor Hasan are a worldview. They share their worldview and you might agree but they are still saying what other people have said already just with their personality. They have a goal to spread that world view and make money. That's not community work that is being a fan. Maybe that's the actual issue that when someone says leftism you think of online personalities and not actual political theories and practicing them. I'm actually a little flabbergasted, but I've learned something. And Hasan.... isn't even an extreme leftist. Extrem leftists beat up cops and destroy personal property. That would be a somewhat fair comparison to Tate. Not someone whos effectively chilling on twitch.
As an Autistic person who is also queer, physically disabled, and often perceived as a "screeching SJW" by misogynists (I work in tech, so this is every day for me), thank you for addressing the topic of Autism within the manosphere so maturely and responsibly. It's real, and it's important to talk about. It's also a very easily misused and weaponised talking point against an extremely vulnerable community. Thank you for representing that nuance.
A profesor at the University of Indiana once told me, “Fathers are raising their sons for a world that no longer exists.” That really got me thinking.
Yesssss
Damn this is true
Correct. But then what?
@@iluminatiwhat do you mean "then what"? Then we raise them for a world that does exist. What else is there to do?
Thinking about what??🤣🤣that’s just some random bullshit that means nothing
It's crazy how normal teenage insecurity was monetized and SEVERELY enhanced....dystopian as fuck.
Got any solutions buddy?
It's been happening for years, now the results are just more extreme
@DominicTetraultThat's boderline rackeeterring
I'm happy this only started after my teenage years were over.
It shouldn't be surprising though. It's a tried and true model. Truck advertisements don't have to hit guys with their product features as much as they use imagery and messaging to reinforce car culture, "independence", and masculinity to prey on the insecurities that accompany societal expectations. Adults aren't excluded from the strategy.
“Men these days are too feminine discourse stretches back to the 1800s”
Michel Foucault traces it back even further, to ancient greece, where one writer complained about young men of his day indulging in “feminine” expressions such as theatre and dance.
It can be found throughout history, there’s a quote from F.Borodin in 1727 critiquing the ‘Luxury and Effeminacy of the Age’ -‘Young men should cease to act like coxcombs’ and ‘Effeminacy would ruin the nation’
-Source: P, Corfeild, The Georgians, The Deeds and Misdeeds of 18th Century Britain
Showing misogyny goes back as far as that too
What book does Foucault discuss this in?
@Radiohomunculus I'm almost certain he's referring to the History of Sexuality Volume 1 or 2 because those deal pretty extensively with Greco Roman culture iirc. The first one definitely deals with Greco Roman culture but its been a long time since I read it tbh
It’s a version of the Golden Age Fallacy: as far back in history as there has been writing, people have been complaining that things were better in the good old days, whining about “kids these days” etc. Pick a time in history “when men were men,” and you’ll find someone at that time writing about how men those days were actually sissies and everyone was getting soft *then.* It’s not because men have been getting softer, it’s because middle aged men have always been whiny babies who are insecure about the next generation. Of course the ultimate irony is how modern guys have chosen the Spartan helmet as their symbol of this idea - the Spartans were one of the most enthusiastically queer male cultures in documented history. Only a completely deluded person could look around this culture where we’re up to our eyeballs in guns, beard products, tattoos, on-demand testosterone injections, jiu jitsu schools, shattered powerlifting records, trucks the size of shuttle buses etc. and conclude “when did we get so soft?” 😂
Random thought: When you end your manosphere phase - that should be called "mano-pause".
Hah! I love it
Man on pause 😂
There *is* a male hormonal cycle too, so it fits
e-man-cipated
B I G Think
"a lot of these people were shitty before they found andrew tate" - YES, TY, NOT ALL OF US ACCIDENTALED OUR WAY INTO A NAZI PHASE, THAT SHIT IS NOT JUST SOME NORMAL TEENAGE RITE OF PASSAGE
Okay right, exactly lol I’ve been taking time over the years really doing the work and fishing out all the gunk from my psyche. It helps a lot that TH-camrs like FD can help pinpoint blind spots.
You don't become shitty unless there was some fertile soil for that shittiness to grow in
@@jordanetherington1922The soil analogy is an excellent one, and related to that keep in mind that all of us don't make that soil on our own. It's a combination of the people around us as it's fertilized, and our own taken or missed opportunities as we grow up. And just like some people have to work much harder to stay in shape due to genetics or bad health role models, or finding paths to wealth due to not being born into it or around people who know how to amass it, some people have a lot more work to do in order to replace that soil that was corrupted by bad influences and bad decisions while they were young, and should be given at least some space to do so before being fully judged for it.
Human's greatest strength and weakness is our ability to adapt to the most messed up things as "normal" as long as we're inured to it at a young enough age by people who are placed in positions of authority over us. Calling people "monsters" and things like that for example gives the mistaken impression that it's something uniquely broken inside them, and absolves the rest of humanity from coming to terms with that the vast majority of us are capable of believing or doing some pretty fucked up stuff if we were raised in the environment that can push people towards it. It's not ALL nurturing and outside influences that re the problem by any stretch, but to pretend it's not a factor, and take that into consideration when judging and helping people like those in the incel community, is counterproductive to actually getting any real progress in deprogramming some of these people.
At the same time, what utility are we bringing into the world by saying "That 14 year old who found Andrew Tate was already a shitty 13 year old". It's a kid lol
@@misterscorpius1446 It's about recognizing that this shit doesn't start with watching Tate or other manosphere videos. That kid grew up in circumstances that reinforced - sometimes implicitly, sometimes explicitly - some amount of shitty beliefs and behavior that ended up getting that kid recommendations for Tate-style videos. It's about recognizing that removing Tate doesn't remove the problem, it's just treating a symptom. Because once Tate is gone, it may take a while before someone takes his place, but in the meantime that shitty kid who grew up in circumstances that reinforced him to be shitty will be just as receptive to the next Tate when he's 18 or 20 or 24 as he was at 13.
thank you for addressing the autism side of this conversation. i’m an autistic woman and i’ve been so frustrated about how the “autistic school shooter” image has damaged our community this past decade.
The action of one individual does not reflect the group. This is something that everyone should know by now. I have work with autistic people, some were amazing, others were rude and mean. They’re human beings, one different to the other. God bless ❤
Oh wow. I try to be aware of at least the more broadly known about public shootings (within reason. It's a depressing subject and I don't need to sacrifice my own mental health) and I didn't know about any autistic mass shooters.
Personally, despite being a man and, frankly, very lonely, (and autistic), I find few people as repulsive as manosphere people. Honestly, if they were my primary examples of manliness, I would identify as nonbinary. Most of this video I've spent thinking about how despite autistic people generally being lonely and more socially isolated, these people just can't appeal to us. Admittedly, that is partially projection and probably partially wishful thinking but still.
Edit: I wrote this without having finished the video and was just before the neurodivergent section. Lol
Ok
YES. I'm autistic and I was accused, by school admins and concerned parents, of being a potential school shooter three times. Sure, I was obnoxious and weird and kind of obstinate, but I never would've dreamed of hurting anyone. It was pretty miserable.
@@khadyadjisall5708yes, you are right. However, you should also know that a lot of human beings like to pay more attention at the bad than good. Anything good autistic people have made are rarely known by people.
As a lonely guy who struggles to meet people and navigate romance... I think a lot of guys forget how many women are in that exact same situation and how little they are being listened to.
Solid point!!
I get your point but it completely ignores the societal structures that encourage men to be in those positions alot more than women. Coming from a woman, it just seems so odd to even suggest this as a coping mechanism
Thank you for your empathy.
@@placeholder6811 I didn't mean it as a coping mechanism. That's the wrong way of seeing it. It's more that the society we live in makes everyone lonely and miserable. It's not just men. If there were more ways of meeting people as an adult and more time to build relationships, it would be better for everyone. It is true that the ways in which society makes men and women lonely are both very different and very gendered, of course.
@and9084 It would have been nice to see that nuance in your original comment, even though I still disagree with your overall point. It comes off as very dismissive like saying "hey everyone feels sad lol". But thank you for clearing that up
Guys who sIutshame women for having sx whist simultaneously complaining about not being able to have sx with women will always confuse me
upset people are not rational, especially not in media ecosystems who validate and amplify their feelings uncritically
There's nothing confusing about it. Their "arguments" are thinly veiled attempts to cover the quiet part they don't say out loud which is "I'm angry at women because I don't get to have that with them"
As someone who is married but has a lot of single friends I don’t have the time or inclination to explain to you why you will stay confused
Because it allows them to discriminate against some women and add value to others. If they can get a more "valuable" women then they've done masculinity better.
It’s not confusing, it’s based in the core human emotion known as:
“IT SHOULD’VE BEEN ME!”
Five years ago I found out about my wife’s many infidelities throughout our fifteen year marriage. I was completely traumatized. I was working through my recovery and stumbled upon MGTOW content. It was really easy to fall into the trappings of those ideas because I was so hurt.
Fortunately my affair recovery program and therapists pushed back on these ideas and I didn’t stay in there too long so I empathize with men who fall into because it’s very enticing when you feel so broken. When you feel like you’re not enough.
Today I’m much healthier and I’m grateful for content like this because it helps me from falling back into the trappings of manosphere ideas and rhetoric.
F.D, you are appreciated
That kind of experience really fucking sucks. It's sad that it happens but I'm happy to hear you found your way into a productive mindset about it and not MGTOW shit. May many other hurt men follow your path
Good for you for trusting in your legitimate support network. The manosphere types only want to wallow in self pity and beat down women, and men for that matter. You were lucky you had many years of experience under your belt when going through that ordeal. When stuff like that happens to impressionable youngsters, it's sooo much harder to overcome. Tyvm for sharing.
@@LukeMcGuireoides Thanks for the encouragement.
The tricky part is wallowing in that self pity is really easy. Even comfortable in some ways. It was very easy for me to blame my wife for how I felt as well as her infidelity. That’s only half true. The infidelity was hers to own but my trauma was mine to work through. Once I was taught that, I was able to take the steps to work through the trauma and not stay stuck in that infinite loop of pain and anger. Those things can only be taught by healthy mentorship and therapy; something the Tate’s and Sneakos of the world can’t teach because they’ve not done the work to be healthy and safe enough to teach it.
My heart aches for the young men and boys who model their behaviors after these guys but I have sympathy for those young men and boys because I understand why they do 😢
I had a similar thing as a woman towards Men after I was attacked. It's easy to fall in these cylos. What I realized is they just made me more angry. And it made me see men as 2 dimensional and not 3 dimensional beings.
Thank goodness you got that help. I’ve been involved with men who experienced women cheating on them and the amount of BS I had to cope with was heartbreaking. I felt like I had cheated but I didn’t and I was just in this shadow of the woman that tore them apart.
Theres this quote I love from Brennan Lee Mulligan, quoting his professor:
"... people are not motivated by ideological codes. People are motivated by impulse and construct ideological codes to justify and rationalize what they were already going to do. An old professor of mine had this great thing. He said, “On the level of individuals and civilizations, personality predates ideology.” Meaning that before you were a fascist, you were a bully and an asshole".
however, such a gesture of individualization contra ideology is an exemplary tactic of [zizek voice] _pure ideology_
Love me some Brennan ❤
Funny, cause alot of the fascists today were victims when they grew up, felt threatened by black folks or immigrants some black guy took their girl in highschool now they're voting for trump because they look up to his son in law, there's a bunch of different entries
@@o-wolfa lot were also influenced by their parents or peer pressure/media, I know some people who seldom see people of color but are incredibly racist
@@o-wolf They're casting themselves as victims regardless of whether they actually were, bullies tend to actually have great self-esteem and high levels of happiness.
I just want to say I'm not a guy but I am autistic and the "autistic people are going to be more likely to have life experiences that push them into online echo chambers" bit is absolutely correct. Many of us have far better social outcomes in online spaces where things like tone and body language play less of a role in communication, and because of the nature of the internet this can cause a spiral of rejecting face to face interaction in favor of comfortable online echo chambers. To be clear, I think online hobbies are valid, I think having online friends is valid, but your entire life cannot be spent locked in a box filled with people trying to sell you things.
The sad part is that it can. Not that it should, but it clearly can.
That's the scary bit. If it wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be happening.
This is also compounded by the fact that we are often underemployed and unemployed or have trouble learning to drive and can have our independence restricted meaning that sometimes we have no choice. But it isn't hopeless there are many good people out there who want to help us get accommodation and not be isolated. I have found quite a few irl friends but it took a lot of trial and error and not being afraid of embarrassment and rejection. Most of my current friends tho i met through my current partner who is also neurodivergent and most of their friends are also neurodivergent which is really freeing and joyful. Im also dating 3 other ppl who are also autistic! ☺️☺️ being autistic can be a great blessing in a community whether online or in person. I cannot always see all my friends and partners in person both because of covid and bc they live across town and i cant drive. But i am still connected to them online.
The ending lost me but you were spot on
On a side note, it's crazy this dude in the video brags about making $10-12k on his previous videos, but is actually anti-capitalism. You can't make this shite up! 🤦♂️😂
@@samspade8830 Whats so weird about that?
I mean, maybe he does actually live in a post scarcity society where money is utterly meaningless. Unless that's the case though, he still needs money to survive because of the system he lives in, and it is also a tangible metric to evaluate how successful the video is.
I've never been the type of man who tried to show I was a man by dominating woman...and it never made me less of a man...your manhood isn't measured by dominating others, but by standing on principle, standing up for what's right, and taking care of your family...
Exactly! Differentiating between toxic and healthy masculinity.
Does Tyrone agree with that though?
@@SkibidiToiletIslnherentlyAryanwho gives af about Tyrone 😂
@@SkibidiToiletIslnherentlyAryan
Tyrone is a figment of your imagination.
@@SkibidiToiletIslnherentlyAryanyou’re worried about the wrong thing!
That 6hr video screenshot. Wonder how long the manholesphere reaction video will be. If history serves us well, it can score my day as a soy man
Foreign Manina Foreign Land
Seeing you in the comments of an FD vid is like spotting a cameo character from a different franchise in a superhero movie lol.
@@assassino1480 ok but cornbreadtube avengers super crossover project when
Manholesphere..that's wild lmfao
hahahahahahahahah manholesphere
"Natural way of things" to me is basically the same as saying, "I can't explain my emotional position, so you're just going to have to accept it."
Appeals to emotion or to nature that aren't based in social science like sociology or history immediately raise red flags to me.
Fascists love lying about human nature. From reading "Anatomy of Fascism" I believe its their most common & dangerous lie.
The default/natural way is whatever I grew up with.
If you actually want to understand what the base logic is, watch hoe_math. All the political/social stuff is just flavour text
It's a really small thing, but growing up whenever a couple was in the car together, the man ALWAYS drove. I always assumed that it was "supposed" to be that way. It wasn't until high school that I saw my boyfriend's mom do all the driving. I was extra confused about it because his dad was a professional driver (truck driver), so I figured he'd be better at it. But that's exactly why he didn't want to drive. He did it all day for work and didn't want to have to be behind the wheel when he got home. It made me realize that despite being raised with feminist ideals, a lot of my life was influenced by traditional gender roles that my parents and grandparents had never thought to unpack
It’s called the naturalistic fallacy.
I moved home when covid hit in 2020 and immediately noticed my 12 yr old brother slipping into manosphere content. He was the only child living at home but still neither of our parents noticed despite my dad being very aware of incels bc he was a cop and they had to do trainings on the community. What you said about passive parenting of boys is incredibly true. The second I started questioning him and actively engaging with him in a serious way, initiating conversations about his thoughts and beliefs a lot of what he was learning began to crumble. He’s 16 now and has a really sweet girlfriend. He recently mentioned “before u moved back I think I was going down the alt right pipeline” and I realized that even tho I was putting in a lot of work to educate him, because I was questioning him and challenging him as an equal he didn’t see it as lecturing he saw it as discussion that allowed him to come to his own conclusions. I explained that I noticed, was worried about him, and really cared about how he was feeling since it was a sign to me that he was feeling some type of turmoil. We kind of laughed about it but honestly I’m happy that we can talk it out now in reflection rather than as something that continued to grow and fracture our relationship.
Whenever friends complain about statements boys in their families make I always ask how they’re engaging with it. Maybe people say that they don’t. I know that there is a line with harm but these boys are our community. They need to be payed attention to and they need to be cared about!
I hope this makes sense it kinda makes me tear up reflecting on this time but I’m really proud of him and all the other boys who worked hard to question their worldview and came out the other side to something better ❤
Well done. If only there were more parents and siblings to intervene before the cancer takes root by simply having meaningful conversations.
You're a really good sibling. That's a lovely anecdote.
I'm noticing the same but on my dad. I'm currently not (emotionally and vocabulary-wise) prepped enough to challenge him out of it.
that's so beautiful ❤ i do take a bit of pride in not letting my baby brother fall for misogyny either. our age gap is quite small so it was more about being constant with the little things. like validating his love for 'girly' music or 'gay' clothes, and just not caring about gender stereotypes at all but treating him like any human person. being there when his heart got broken and letting him know it's okay to cry, or giving him a safe place to sleep after partying a bit too much - without a big lecture in the morning. helping with difficult money stuff occasionally and not ever telling him to 'grow up' but always battling the shame, reassuring him that nobody is good at absolutely everything and he's not a bad person or unmanly for having some weaknesses. he's now happily married to a kind, beautiful and highly educated woman and i'm pretty sure it's not thanks to our parents' 'boys will be boys' hands off approach.
I'm so sad to see hear this, but not surprised at all to hear it as a HS teacher. I do my best to challenge these ideologies, language, and behavior that has become commonplace over the last few years. As a male teacher- I know it's up to me challenge and hopefully enlighten some of these boys.
I'm a 23y/o male who got into the manosspere during the covid pandemic through youtube SJW owned compilations, fresh and fit, justpearlythings and sneako. I realized that these guys were phonies when I saw the image of women that the manosphere podcasts constantly portrayed through the guests that they bought on their show. They never bought on any intellectual knowledgeable women to debate them on their own ideals, it was always these onlyfans women who had little to no preparation about the topics that they would bring up. Every interview was an easy dunk for them. They never actually wanted to be challenged, and when they were It was easy to see how bogus their beliefs actually were. In hindsight I cant believe I actually used to consume this content with any ounce of seriousness. I'm glad I managed to get out when I did.
I’m the same age but got hit with it a few years earlier with the Jordan Peterson, Steven Crowder, Ben Shapiro wave. Glad you got out too my man 🫡
Did you also notice how often they would get the women "guests" drunk before grilling them with their terrible questions?
Also, I'm glad you got out. Those guys are usually scammers, and the ones who aren't are like the miserable crabs at the bottom of the bucket, trying to pull other crabs back in before they can escape.
Edit: the fresh n fit/andrew tate type podcast bros don't actually want to help their listeners. They want their money. I hope you found positive people to be in your life and positive people to watch online!
"If you don't raise your son, someone else will."
Faxx
How about women choose good father's in the first place?
@@MegaIIIIhow about we actually educate men to be good parents so there aren’t many “bad” options
@@RyomenAyeni225 you can't change deadbeats because they'll always have access to women, because women find them attractive and will tolerate bad behaviour because they're tall and good looking
@@RyomenAyeni225and whose gonna do that if the men themselves didn’t have fathers? Teachers? Media?
I remember a while back there was some online voice check thing to see how “manly” your voice was on a number scale. If you got a low score you were told to buy some “medicine” to improve how you sound.
If that’s not evidence that this manosphere thing is nothing more than a business to prey on insecure men I don’t know what is.
I’m sure it’s not even accurate either, u could probably play a low frequency sound into it & it’d say the voice is too high lol.
Jesus. I just had flash backs to years ago, when companies first started branding specific products as "manly". You had bacon scented bubble bath, or manly shower routine kits (sawdust, bacon, etc scented soaps, face creams, etc), and the whole nine. I laughed at all of it at the time, because I'm not an insecure man and it seemed hilariously specific.
I didn't realize at the time that I was literally witnessing the birth of the "insecure man as a marketing demographic" phenomenon. And I had no idea it was actually this large. None of my guy friends now or growing up are insecure, so it never actually dawned on me how many deeply insecure men there are out here.
And then social media does what it always does and steps on the gas *hard,* and here we are. I suffer of the realization that they're not fooling anyone but each other would mean anything? That making crippling insecurity your primary personality trait doesn't actually help anything? Like, I don't even know how to process this, let alone attempt to help stop it because I'm not the target audience by any means. I've never been insecure enough to fall for this cartoon bullshit.
It's weird how many avenues there are to induct people into crazy stuff. I play D&D, I wish I had more gravitas in my voice for villains and narration, I went looking for like, voice actor tricks for doing deep voices, and most of the results are this kind of thing negging your voice and trying to get you to follow them for advice on being an alpha. Crazy
(EDIT: okay yeah no it's dead fuckin serious LMAO, didn't think checking would be that easy) Is it the voicecel thing? I was under the assumption that it was a joke, that was the vibe I got from the people I saw sharing it...
@@craptastrophe521 You are better off looking at speech or music lessons for that. A lot of Men can develop a nice tenor and bass just by training your voice. The vocal cords are muscles. They would also teach you to speak and breath from the diaphragm which really helps out your breathing overall. Many actors have music training to develop their range of voices.
Damn that ice cube was really clear
Funnily enough. The 1950s housewife ideal didn't exist in the black community back then. Both were working outside the home 😂
Because manosphere, red-pill, nationalist types all follow the same basic method - mythologisation of "The Good Old Days".
These people don't actually know their history, and it benefits them not to know. Because "The Good Old Days" isn't the past, it's their ideal _future_ under the justification of tradition .
After all, if that future utopia is actually their history, then they can use both the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy and the 'appeal to ancient wisdom' fallacy with impunity.
The Good Old Days where all men worked and all women were barefoot and pregnant, and everyone in this utopia is cishet and happy, never existed. But they need it to, so they can't be blamed for their hate speech: the bigotry of this mythologised past is both not their fault because their ancestors came up with it first, and not their fault because it's justified as an unspoken _source_ of this mythological power.
White women worked too... And most of the time both the man and woman worked around the farm. Not in white collard jobs.
@CiCodiCadno Conservatives never said it was a Utopia. But liberals assert the utopia is everyone can do what they want because of their feelings.
I cant imagine that in the middle ages and prior that any lower class people didn't do some sort of work. Why would you just have one able bodied person do nothing all day? There's so much to so just to survive. Now that doing housework is less of a full time job due to modern convenience and the cost of living and raising children is so high, it is just way too hard to maintain the one income household for the majority of folks.
@@antoniomosley9410Nobody said that .
Aw c'mon man I'm trying to get back on a normal sleep schedule...
YOU JUST SPYED ON MY THOUGHTS HOW TF DID U DO THAT BRUHHHHHH😭😭
😂😅😅😅 y'all making a girl all the way in SA chuckle
nah cause it's 12 where i am and jus got this notif 😂
Laughs in British
Fr, literally watching this at 3:30 am where I’m at right now…
Hey, FD. I'm a clinical social worker and I work with young men in recovery. Many of them seem to subscribe to manosphere ideology and your content has been very helpful. Thank you for doing what you do!
I encountered your channel when the Dave Chapelle video was recommended. After that, I saw the thumbnail for the Bo Burnham video. By then, I was hooked. Whenever a new FD video comes out, be it on the main channel or B-Sides, its always an exciting time for me. Thank you for helping this cis, het, white male's brain grow and eyes open.
Are there social workers who work exclusively with people in the manosphere or is the recovery mentioned here mostly centered around things like substance addiction.
@@robingrayson8917 It's a rehab agency for mental health and substance abuse. Many of the clients just happen to be in the manosphere also.
@@robingrayson8917 definitely the latter in this context
I'm a clinical mental health counselor who works with 16-24 year olds. And most if my male clients will at least reference the manosphere as a positive source of information. Some of my female clients are dating some of those same pro-manosphere guys and are in psychologically abusive relationships. They are property to be dominated and ran.
@@robingrayson8917 Sorry, I thought I'd replied to this, but it doesn't show up for some reason, probably user error on my part. The recovery I mentioned is primarily substance use and mental health, and many of the clients also happen to have the manosphere intersection.
I’m a totally blind person and I am just so happy that you brought up disability and all this! I was literally thinking a minute before you mentioned it: “why doesn’t anybody bring up disability? “Blindness definitely affects the way that I interact in a sighted world as far as socialization goes. Groups of more than three people. Total are still a challenge for me, and when I was younger, forget about it. And it way had an effect on how I perceive dating signals, and just general friendship stuff, because sighted people use a lot a lot a lot of visual, communication and iContact and passing conversations by looking at other people. So important thank you for mentioning disability!
hey homie, i am also blind and have felt the struggles of what it is to exist in today's world while disabled. dating is already hard and for each one to be a blind date? it can be overwhelming a lot of the time
its not often that I find other blind homies in youtube comments
thanks for sharing, i would love to talk more sometime
if you're using a screen reader: ahuahuahuahuahuahiahiahuahuahuahauahuahuahua hit me up lol
As someone with autism, same man. People really overlook how easy it is for disabled people to fall into these spheres, its just easier to believe your reason for "failure" is feminism or something rather than society as a whole just not giving a shit about your disability.
Lmao iContact
OK iContact is a totally absurd and dystopian freaky thing. My iPhone did a week ago or so and now it did it again! Typing on the on screen keyboard as possible, but I haven’t gotten fast at it and instead rely on dictation and sent that one off in a joyous, rush without editing. 😀
@@EnigmaticGentlemanautism is not really a disability bro
Best content on the net when we talking sense and sensibility. Thank you brother. Blessings to you and yours.
This video hits close to home. I have to proactively protect my oldest son from this stuff online. It’s a HUGE market and full of people targeting young boys. Parents be cautious and attentive!!!!
Also just hitting this part of the vid, as someone studying neuroscience(as a 2nd degree , not a flex just to show it’s not random no cred guy yelling into the void) and with a big focus on developmental psychology, neurodivergenance, and learning.
I’d love to chat more or be engaged in the ongoing discussion in neurodivergent folks and potentially being especially vulnerable to being influenced here. Always looking for networks when providence allows lol
(Not as a content creator, I’m not in that game these days as a point of study, just not in that field right now life is at capacity before I focus on grad school and study lol)
Damn also I got chills when you mentioned kids naturally being kind. I hope people get to this part (knowing the general drop off rate) and its counterpart is IMO a plague on pop psychology.
Kids, boys, and generally humans are actually love seeking and kind, we build social contracts naturally and trust each other all day everyday without even realizing it.
Someone telling you people are naturally bad is a red flag for their character. (This is not the same as a theological context but whole other argument there )
Amazing vid overall guy
As someone with a masters in ECD, and 15 years of experience in the field, I concur.
😊
Best of luck. I worry about my beloved nephew. He's getting to be that age, around twelve. I comfort myself with the idea that he's much less likely to fall into their clutches since he has two sisters. I have a theory that boys that have experience with girls, even within their own family, are much less likely to enter inceldom.
As an academic and researcher I appreciate your pyramid of proof chart! We need an inverse one that puts "dude I saw on Twitter" and "that one video I saw on TH-cam" at the bottom.
Please go forth and publish that… I wanna show it to my mom 😂 (and myself)
God I wish it was that easy to publish something so obvious.@@ZL1LoVeR
Tbf, that sounds like your making an "appeal to authority".
I would like to add that is about EVERYONE to take time and make their own conclusions about what you see, but most will not because they not have the mental fortitude to discuss this complex phenomena within themselves.
@@notsojharedtroll23 Oh man, as a former debate coach I'm so glad you brought this up. Because it often gets taken out of context and used as a way to say citing proof is logically flawed. Which is not the case.
An "appeal to authority" is a bit of a misnomer. It's more of an appeal to misplaced authority. There are two ways that this fallacy occurs:
1.) You try to convince someone by citing that an authority figure says something, and therefore you should blindly trust it. This is only done in rare situations where someone implicitly trusts someone else enough to dictate their whole reality for them.
This does not, however, allow you carte blanche to disregard any and all experts you dislike or disagree with simply because they are experts. Research in a peer reviewed journal has more than likely met the rigor standards to be considered credible, especially since they make their research open and viewable, and hide nothing in their methodlogies.
2.) You try and cite an expert to prove something, that is not an expert in that particular thing. Such as citing a brain surgeon as evidence when discussing say, the best toothpaste. It is more than likely that that particular expert, though very smart, isn't likely versed in teeth as much as say a dentist.
Too often I see people use the "appeal to authority" as a crutch in argumentation to write off valid, evidence based research and experts.
Drawing your own conclusions about what you see is great, assuming you know what you're looking at. If not, then you should probably rely on someone who is far better informed. If I'm going under the knife, I don't want someone to look at my guts and come to their own conclusions about what to do. I want a a surgeon, who is trained, and informed by years and years of knowledge of those that came before them to have that scalpel.
@@notsojharedtroll23
the appeal to authority is a misunderstood falacy
the truth is no human has time to be educated on all topics
and thus authorities must be made
this is almost universally accepted
about a quarter of philosophers I've met
just outright say it's not a fallacy
and I'm inclined to agree
fallacies are innate logical errors
using expert testimony isn't a logical error
expert testimony is common in criminal courts for a reason
you can disapprove of specific uses
but it's unfair to disagree with it universally
however: it's true that testimony is not always true
thus authority information is heuristic and not fallacious
different sides of the same coin
if you really must use it as a fallacy
most people who seriously use it say:
'it only applies if we have differing authorities'
that is: if I'm a biologist talking to a Christian
it would be an appeal to authority
if they quote a bible verse as an authority
but if they say a biologist paper said X it's not
it's only an appeal to authority
when a given authority is considered false
in practice - this ultimately means:
'its not an appeal to authority if
they actually are an expert in a relevant feild'
As a young black man in my early twenties trying to figure out how to be a good traditional masculine man without a dad, i was completely sucked into the manosphere when covid hit back in 2020. After years of watching that content i used to be very prejudice of women because I believed the rhetoric that was being given to me by the creators in that space. It wasn’t until recently when i stoped watching the content and all of the rage bait and started to improve my social skills that I realized how much of a negative mindset i used to have. I’m so grateful that there are creators like F.D signifier who make these great video essays to explain just how much damage the manosphere is doing. Thank you mr. Signifier for your hard work 👍🏾
I can relate but as a Hispanic
It’s not easy to break from that…especially when you need to look at yourself and say “I was being a real shit person.” I’ve done it…it fucking sucks to have the self-reflection and see how you were being shit and having to undo that and try to be better every day. But in the end…it makes us better people, and that in turn makes us happier people.
Do you have a father?
You’re speaking very vaguely. Whats an example of something said in the manosphere that you found to be untrue? Thank you
@@The.Harsh.Truths That black men provide, build and protect
Every minute of this video was worth watching. When I first heard someone say “boys don’t get raised” I thought of all the times as a little boy I avoided telling an adult something that was bothering because they would tell me to deal with it, or is not a big deal, or tell me “you’re a man”. Much of my childhood I remember being in my head. Dealing with my thoughts and emotions on my own and asking myself a lot how to feal about things because I didn’t have anyone to talk to about those things.
25y/o, I’m AFAB, but my 49y/o MARRIED dad has been listening to and repeating a lot of manosphere stuff in recent years. This man has 3 daughters and a wife (plus my brother who has thankfully not fallen for this bs), and any time I’ve tried to push back on his rhetoric he just goes on about how I don’t understand and then he just walks away while I’m mid-sentence. He speaks to my mother like she’s a toddler. He says rude shit about my little brother for not being “masculine” enough. He just sits at the kitchen table, drinking and watching “triggered libs,” Andrew Tate, and other misogynistic creators like JLP all day and ignores or condescends to us all day.
I truly feel like the manosphere (among other ideologies) has stolen my dad from us.
Dats tough 😢
That is really rough. I dont know what to say, but that i truly hope the best for you. Hopefully you will get your father back one day. I know how much it hurts to loose your father figure be that physicly or emotionaly.
@@strigoi_guhlqueen8355thank you
@@jkuhede because his “opinion” directly leads to the constant dehumanization and aggressive, manipulative behavior he directs at his family and it’s caused long term stress and pain for everyone in the household. I could go on, but I don’t feel like wasting any more energy on an obvious troll.
@@jkuhede You must be anti-family if you support ideologies that encourage fathers to distance themselves from their wives and daughters. If a wife starting talking about hating men all day, you would blame her for ruining her family and leading her husband to divorce. This is a man leading his wife to divorce through hating women. Simple stuff my man.
It just occured to me the other day that creating insecurity in order to exploit people is a really fundamental form of evil in the human experience, and it has always had it's forms in all the past eras, and how many "traditional masculine roles" like soldiers and factory workers have also been forms of exploitation of insecurity - and the irony is that so many people think those roles are how things should be. Naah, you just got socialized into the idea, and are now suffering from a stockholm syndrome.
I see it as one of humanities oldest generational traumas.
People been trapping other people in false identities to control them since forever.
@@DisgruntledPeasant exactly.
Ever since we are children, we're socialized into competition.
One day, we beat Ali in grades or we sing better, we are given valuable labels, hey, you're so smart, you're such a good singer.
The next day, Aria beats me and just as easily as those labels were taken from Ali and given to me, they will be taken from me and given to Aria.
That's a blatantly volatile sense of self, you'd be identifying with things that are based on your actions, not what you are really.
Every time you see that somebody is better than you in something you identify with, you compare yourself to them and feel that a part of your self has been threatened or taken.
We are taught that the very goal of life, is gaining values that are defined to us by society and avoid being devalued.
It's like we have to spend out entire lives gathering resources for an all out war against everybody around us.
And this is such a normalized mindset, it's scary.
A quote from Teddy Roosevelt: "Comparison is the thief of joy."
But really, comparison is the thief of self-identity 🤔 thanks for the thought!
Trad man roles exist, so too do woman roles. It doesn't mean you have to be a soldier or whatever box you want
@@Chronz yes they exist. Doesn't mean they are needed and that they aren't harmful.
Glad to have videos like this to help me understand what’s going on with this shit on the internet. I am a 44 year old father of 3 boys 10 and under. I need to be educated on this front to make sure they don’t go down the manosphere rabbit holes.
FD has a podcast that has an extended interview with Murphy Macken that's also really good.
You’re going to push your kids away if you follow FD, Macken, and tell your boys they are the problem because they’re toxic mansplainers that live under a patriarchy that they control and they’re oppressing women that get affirmative action but are still the victim.
You should take away what you consider to be good advice from people on the far left like FD, but also watch some videos from Jordan Peterson and take away what you consider to be good points from him as well.
Then give your boys a balanced diet of ideas from both sides, and leave it up to them to find their own ideology that suits them. Don’t force your own ideology down their throats. Thank you.
I think you being active in their lives is a significant leg up against many of their peers without that positive masculine figure in their lives
My son was struggling in school when he fell down the altright rabbit hole. His negative emotions were tone matched by these video's. When he found a school that better suited his needs he became happy again and politicaly left-wing. I have rebuked him a couple of times on things he said or did, but in the end it was finding a place that made him happy is what got him out.
One thing to help later on, don’t let our kids have phones too early, we grew up without them, it’s okay, but yeah, social media is so detrimental to middle school age and teenagers too.
TikTok will make the brain rot.
But you sound like a really good Father, having you in their lives will be so important and a good influence.
I gotta say, this analysis feels so spot on. I also had a 1 year phase and yes its the anger and disgust that draws you in. It is insidious and provocative enough to keep you coming back, but after a while i realised that those conversations were falling out of touch with my real experience as a friend and family member to actual women in the real world.
you will never see a woman on these shows who is able to take down these arguments and make them as redundant as they are in normal life. because its a whole grift and doesn't really attempt to provide an equal or balanced argument.
What makes it so effective it seems, is unless you take the effort to talk to people as people, and not talking to people as their gender, then it is very difficult to get out of that negative cycle and your conditioned attitude will be confirming itself more concretely, the more isolated you become.
Young boys falling into this are so vulnerable to being completely brainwashed by these ideas, and subsequently fail to develop more mature and rounded attitudes to other people in general.
I fear for their recovery tbh.
Yea, as a teenage dude i get blasted with this sort of content all the time even though i was never interested in it. A lot of my friends have been sort of pulled into this way of thinking and its scary to see how effective it is
Thank you so much for having me on, F.D Signifier! I had a really nice time chatting with you.
Just saw the full shout-out at the end... Super cool move of you, mate, you didn't have to! Really appreciate that.
You were a wonderful addition to the discussion. I don't know that I would've found your work otherwise, so I appreciate that you answered the call. 🤘
As someone not on your guys side, you should debate some of the best
Do you think your framing of relationships as a 'marketplace' really help the matter being discussed? Tbh, I think it only adds to the transactional aspect that a lot of manosphere types rely on for their rhetoric. It also seemed odd considering it made conclusions from the assumption that everyone is heterosexual. I'm not going to make huge assumptions about you from a short clip, I suspect you are great, but it felt like it was using the same false premises to come to a conclusion that manosphere types do.
"mating market" is typical lingo in my field. that's probably where they got the idea, and sadly bastardized it. @@munkey_nuts
I remember a time, a few years ago now, when I was browsing the r/askmen subreddit when I came across a post asking for positive voices in the Manosphere space because they were put off by how negative they all were. I remember pointing out that that wasn't really something they could find, because that's pretty much all the Manosphere is, but unfortunately, I don't think I suggested any alternatives (partly because I wasn't engaging with any at the time). I haven't thought about that post until literally watching this video but I'd like to think that, if I were in a similar situation today, I'd be able to offer some more constructive feedback and provide some more healthy sources to try instead
I genuinely tried to talk about unity, the reality that on avg? Mathematics show us guys & gals sleep with the exact same qty. of ppl, & that sl¢t·shaming indicates one prefers women who DISlike intercourse · which is hella R/-\pee.
My comment was deleted by the poster, who then proceeded to threaten to R me · a few slurs thrown at me, etc... They may be the only ppl as hateful as the violent & overt ytsupremacists...
But i really did try.
I was kind & really tried to listen.
r/MensLib is an ACTUALLY good and progressive subreddit that has good discussions about masculinity and explicitly calls itself a pro-feminist space. There are some really good discussions happening there.
@@secretlobsterclawsandother2060
Agreed! XO
I got ADHD, and so long form videos like these are actually REALLY hard to sit through. I’m so pleasantly surprised that I was able to sit through this without getting bored. But ALSO, I’m autistic as well, and as other autistic women have pointed out in these comments, I have been bullied and made fun of my entire life and even now into adulthood, and I just adopted a cat and am focused on work. I don’t want to sh**t up schools or hurt people because I have a hard time in social settings, I just actively chose to opt out of society and people. I just go to work and come home, and that’s it
I have ADHD & OCD and might be on the spectrum, and I'm really happy you were able to find a way to cope with the struggles of autism in a healthy way. "Opting out" as you said makes life less painful/exhausting for me, too. My height dysphoria is probably the most painful part of my mental health problems. I felt ugly (too short) at 5'9.5" even when I had a girlfriend. I don't think I can live my whole life alone, but I'm not going to become bitter and destructive because of it. If my situation really is hopeless, I'll just choose to exit this world earlier than I wanted to.
that's a good point....the whole "i don't want to sh**t up schools or hurt people." it's hard to deal with mental illnesses/neurodivergency in a society that continously degrades it. but i'll never understand the people who genuinely hate an entire demographic of people due to societal problems.
I'm not diagnosed because there's significant stigma in the medical community for those who are where I am, so I can't really speak with "authority" so to speak, but after struggling with society at large for most of my life, I similarly "opted out". I don't really have the longest attention span, so I tend to bounce between short-to-mid-term interests a lot, but those tend to fulfill me much more than trying to get by "outside". Most of the people I interact with on a regular basis are similarly off on some axis, so my social circle is a confederation of weirdos who don't leave the house... and honestly, it works A+ for most of us.
Like, I've developed enough social skills to "pass" as normal over the years, but the fact of the matter is I just don't really care anymore. The benefits of middle age are that people don't nag you for your eccentricities anymore, and when you opt out of parties with the "I have things to do at home" excuse, people actually believe you.
AuDHD here. I love video essays! But I play games at the same time I listen to them, therefore the understimulation doesn't kick in too much.
I'm sorry to hear you're still experiencing bullying. I know what that's like because there are still people trying to bully me from time to time but the older we get, the less other bystanders take part in that. They tend to isolate the bully once we all hit 40 in a group.
Once you're surrounded by older people who've raised children and have some general life experience, it gets better.
Try to find some AuDHD and ASD IRL friends. You'll see that they are loyal and friendly.
@@bemystymiddle age is a blessing when you're neurodivergent, tbh. My friends are also weirdos who don't leave their houses. But it turns out that they all get their diagnoses at some point. My best friend from first grade told me that she's got "Asperger's" as she calls it. Diagnosed 2 weeks ago. Everyone from my youth has either ADHD, ASD or both.
Your background in social work is not lost on you, I love that ✊
As a woman who tried to write about Gamergate for uni in 2015 and got shot down by (male) faculty, thank you SO much for outlining those connections. I went on to work in video games and.. as you said, the tiki torches were NOT a surprise.
That male was 100% right. Writing about gamergate is embarrassing af
what's crazy to me when they talk about incels is how men can acknowledge that it's a human need to have sex and yet in the same breath can say that women deserve to die in pregnancy BECAUSE SHE HAD SEX and that is her fault..... make it make sense.
I don’t understand why they wouldn’t put themselves in the shoes of having a partner that would die in childbirth
It's cuz they don't view women as human
Because they don't see women as humans
@@eveandaedrul and then they wonder why women wouldn't want to be with them.... i think incel is more of a brain disorder these men cannot be this dumb and if they are then i feel truly worried for them.
@madisonbrown6281 I think a lot of it is also narcissism. As someone who unfortunately grew up with narcissistic parents and family members, I was really shocked when I started seeing more of the modern red pill stuff and how a large majority of their statements are made purely out of ego, and even the simple act of ASKING them what they mean can result in them attacking you and claiming how you'll never be as smart as them if you "can't understand something so simple".
Just a bunch of massive egos with incredibly sensitive feelings that want you to endlessly agree with them as you pat them on the back
Ironically a manosphere dude complaining about you brought me here 😂
Mashaallah 😂👏🏽
IN THE CIRCLE OF LIFE
The Circle of Life
@@BentfFish no, the circle of trust
Marketing comes in many forms 😂
So glad to see you featuring Munecat!!! Love love love both of your content. You add such important value to this platform! Also, YAY Pushing Daisies!
If there is ONE THING I have been able to be proud of myself for, it’s that I NEVER got into the manosphere despite my depression, low self esteem and worsening mental health. I knew that, despite my suffering, to be arrogant and blame my suffering on others was a delusion. I found the problems from within.
Faith in men restored. Men like you are the reason why I haven't given up on finding the one for me. Stay strong my bro, us girls struggle too, we need to fight together against evil
Proud of you. It's rare to see a man that can think for themselves these days
I'm the same way. I'm neurodivergent and was socially awkward growing up, never had a GF until my early twenties. The only thing that saved me from going down the alt-right incel pipeline was a predisposition for self-blame. Whereas a lot of people tend to externalize internal problems, I would internalize all of my external problems.
It is 100% a toxic trait, one that is greatly influenced by depression and low self-esteem, but as far as real world outcomes go, it is definitely the lesser of two evils, with me being the primary person that it harmed.
The problem can be from within AND from others tho. Sounds like you just compounded the problem by being wilfully ignorant.
@@Tessy29klol, you're saying he's rare and a good example. Yet he is exactly the kind of guy who devolves into an incel fighting depression. You couldn't have proven the red pill less effortlessly
I may not be part of your target audience but I really appreciate the education that I get from your video essays - so thank you very much.
Youre more than welcome here maam
Fd I’m not gonna lie to you man. I discovered your channel when I was in need of genuine guidance in my life and every time you drop a video I feel like there’s a part of me that begins to heal just because of all the toxic programming that was placed in me as a child . you’re such a great role model for young men and we honestly don’t have a lot nowadays
Which young men?
🥹
i agree!
What kinda cake 🎂
@@ChillingTales12 young men like friedkake1876 i thought it was pretty clear
The most insidious thing is when this take place in households. As a teen girl, with an incelish brother and incel uncle, this kind of rhetoric was not only bewildering and devaluing. But growing up in a conservative girl-blaming culture in an unsafe and predatory neighborhood, I was both in danger inside and outside my household. Not believed and held accountable for the actions of men 20, 30, sometimes more my senior. And it seemed no matter how I dressed or acted, there was always a part of me that they could pin on for why men treated me this way. Until I realized that I was expected to act in a way that was unliveable, the bar was too high and too convoluted. I was either too aggressive, too timid, whichever was the most conviemt excuse for why I attracted men, that was it.
Growing up like this I never understood the female white middle class conservatives arguments that women wouldn't encounter range if they didn't go out late or dressed a certain way.
Many women in my circumstances don't grow up in cushy middle class environments. They take public transportation, they work late nights and early morning. They are in danger 24/7 and home is psychological warfare.
Im 34 now, I fell into MGTOW around 27-28 after my I was cheated on by who I thought was the love of my life. Slowly graduated into redpill without actually realizing it. Funny thing is that even while I was knee deep in the space I still never felt like it was a mindset i should adapt to. I knew it was a horrible way to think but I had trouble escaping. My life didn't improve, my love life didn't improve (it got worse) and my mental health plummeted. I wish for every young man that enters that space to mature gracefully and escape the nonsense. The Manosphere has destroyed more men than it has created
Everybody has a testimony I guess. The gender wars has been redundant for a while.
what actually changed things for you?
As the mother of a son, thanks for speaking out, it helps more than you may ever know
I hate the fact that this giant engine feeds off of guys who experience something so many people experience whether that be heartbreak by falling out of love or being cheated on, being confused about life, about love, or about themselves. It’s so fucking gross and predatory these spaces exist to pull guys down and feed off of them like a life source. I’m so happy you were able to get out and so sorry you experienced that kind of heartbreak.
@@jeffreychandler8418 It just took some time for me. Had quote on quote come to Jesus moment about what type of man I wanted to be, what I found out is that I didn't hate women...I hated certain things about myself.i hated that I pretended to hate women, I hated that I started to abuse alcohol, a porn addiction developed. I was in a dark head space. It was harder since I found the space in my late 20s...much older than when most guys discover redpill. The change came when women I'm cordial with started to view me differently. One of my dearest friends said I turned hateful and my spirit had darkened. I took me almost 2 years to break all of those habits.
I always grew up with guy friends, as a girl.
When I, and those friends, hit puberty it always confused me how differently we were treated by the world and just how lonely some of my friends became.
I understand how 12 - 13 yr olds are the most vulnerable group. Its when you really become aware of how society treats you differently based on your sex and gender.
what does fuy stand for
@@mushmush4980what is the key on the right to the "f"? I think it's a typo :P
And race - living in a diverse family of multiple cultures it wasnt till school , 13 yrs, when white kids were like, "you're black!!!" Despite also having full white kids In my family .... hearing the other kids say this made an impression
Two things I had to note before the 10 minute mark:
1. Gotta get that Tekken footage in there
2. Zatzman has the chin of Andrew Tate's deepest wishes.
if Zatzman and Tate kissed, would their chins touch?
@@econmediocre There would have to be two chins involved for that to happen.
@@gqsnowman it's comments like these that really spark Tate's indignant chinlet rage.
@NonameSpaminbox man, you're late to the party. why does it always take you guys so long to show up?
EDIT: nevermind, just checked account and you're either a bot or a disingenuous participant with no valid stance.
@NonameSpaminbox pretty crazy you openly admit to not interacting with the source material like that. I really appreciate the attempt to spin it into some weirdly self-superior stance, I guess? Thanks for playing chump.
Late diagnosed autistic adult here. This shit kinda stung, honestly. For the longest time autism was just "broken kid disease," we end up with a pretty awful relationship with the rest of the world.
Think i gotta sit with ans interrogate this feeling some more
Early diagnosed...even with more services and accomodations it doesn't get easier.
HONEY NEW FD SIGNIFIER JUST DROPPED
My thought exactly!
And I shrunk the kids! But let's watch F.D first.
Amazing video.. I was say this working with alot of men at my job .. they looked at me crazy.. I’m a black women and educated just like them.. it was a crazy sad time
We shall eat well!
Listing to this with my 4-year-old son sleeping in my lap makes it seem so profound and also scary.
I remember being around 11 years old in 2012, using the iFunny app and constantly being fed casual misogyny. You know, the nonstop "women in the kitchen" type shit? I'm sure it had some kind of effect on me since I almost fell into the incel rabbit hole around 16 because I couldn't find any romantic encounters.
Obviously, I'm not there now, but knowing that there are others like me kinda worries me.
Same man. I remember realizing around 13 years old that the meme i was viewing were really misogynistic (i.e girls boring boys cool and fun type stuff). It stopped me from advancing any further in the manosphere pipeline, i just wish it was more common for people to have those critical thinking moments with the content they consume.
I didn’t stay on iFunny long for that reason. It was really annoying to repeatedly see people demeaning my gender and anyone speaking out against it being buried in hate comments.
@@Discrete1998
This but for basically everything going on. The constant disparaging of the differently abled, women, non whites, plus the background radiation of insane conspiracy theories really turned me off. I don’t know why I ever used it in the first place
As a woman who's been very online since my childhood in the early 2000s, it's been interesting to see the semi-ironic/edgy misogynistic jokes evolve into an ideology of earnest woman-hating. I guess it goes to show that you should watch what people "joke" about, especially if they "joke" about the same things over and over.
same man, luckily the closest i ever got to inceldom was when i was 15 and starting looking at a looksmax forum (diet incel forum disguised as male self improvement) because i girl i really liked was using me for emotional support and taking advantage of me. i stayed with that sort of spite for women and incel opinions until coming across hasan talking about incels and explaining how incels are men being taken advantage of by grifters reaffirming and validating their misogynistic opinions.
his video made me look inward, start working on myself and stop blaming women for my shitty actions. i became a better man because of that. you may not like him for his politics, but he helped me break out of that edgy 4chan incel phase.
I've never been a manly man, I never had the mentality some of these people had of being defined by my monetary value, and I can tell it frustrates some of my family members and in turn destroyed my self worth for a long time, the series of videos you've done on the manosphere have confirmed the thoughts I had spent years wrapping my head around and even though I mostly always had the same thoughts about it but was unaware of the deeper dangers of that mentality. I still struggle with my self worth on a daily basis but I think you've given a lot of guys hope and awareness that the end all be all of a man isn't inherently an irrational misogynistic meathead, that there is relevance to finding an inner peace separate from prescribed nonsense spewed on the internet. Thank you to you and everyone who contributed to the series and the numerous other videos on your channel.
any "society" that wants to see you vile or better is better left behind. social media bubbles are nice examples of such "societies" (networks of people basically, for simplicity there's no need to dive further into scientific specifications)
today i learned the manosphere skews really young. Im 38 and i thought it was for guys like me who had a divorce or maybe lost a long term partner and were reentering the dating pool. knowing they are manipulating kids is insane to me.
I'm 32 and saw manosphere rhetoric on fringe websites/forums in my late teens/early 20s in the early 2010s. It was a mix of young guys who eventually became incels and redpillers as well as "men's rights activists (MRAs)" who went through horrible divorces or got cheated on. Some of the MRAs would try to "prepare" the younger guys for what they'd face in later stages of life with women. Really messed up stuff.
Young boys are the most active on various platforms. They are the ones who create "best of" clips of manosphere content like the little fans they are which further boosts this content. Grown men would less likely have the time or "fan boy" energy to engage like this.
Your demographic would fit more into 'MGTOW'. Still a part of manosphere and has some overlap with redpill I think
I mean adolescents have been the first choice for advertising for decades. I still remember hours and hours of toy ads in the early 2000s. And at the end of the day the influencers want the same thing as the toy companies: attention and money. Hell, same goes for the platforms. Selling to kids is lucrative and everyone wants a piece.
People in their 30s and 40s often have more perspective, more control over their lives, and frankly they have bills to pay so it's harder to convince them to fund your nonsense.
the whole manosphere stuff generally affects guys ranges 18-35 so you’re not too far off there
As a woman who is probably autistic, I've been thinking for a while about the connection between autistic men and online far-right ideologies. I think many of us are aware that a disproportionate number of 4channers, incels, etc. are on the spectrum, but until the video that responded to you, everyone seemed to be afraid to touch the subject--and understandably so; progressive-minded people don't want to stigmatize a disability. I'm glad we're finally addressing the topic with the nuance and sensitivity that it deserves.
That hesitance inhibits one’s ability to explore the extent of which neurodivergence makes boys on the spectrum vulnerable and how patriarchal structures can weaponize it we know 75% of autistic girls have experienced SA especially in childhood this is the other side of that filthy coin.
Go get a formal diagnoses before being so glad that we're FINALLY being addressed thanks.
@@Jasmine69420mind your damn business, she can speak how she likes
@@Jasmine69420its hard being diagnosed with anything as a woman, let alone autism.
As an autistic man I can confirm this is indeed part of the problem. What makes it worse is that autistic traits like being overly rational or having poor insight in to once emotional state is often framed as "toxic masculinity". I think the left fails many autistic men because they don't have a way of talking about these things in a constructive way other than "just change". I can't talk about my feelings when I am not aware of them. Patriachy doesn't help, but it's also not the cause of every problem men have.
Dude I can't tell you how much I appreciate you being clear that the data you collected has not been done so in a rigorous manner. I want people to understand when they are presented with data they need to doubt the viability of it until the process has been vetted r. Samples like these are still valuable but it is really good to hear you be the one to tell us to take it as a sample and not a study.
1:32:09 & Some Black guy tho👉🏽🧔🏽♀️
I really appreciate the conversations around how physical touch and community are actual needs, not too far behind food and shelter.
It would be unthinkable to our ancestors, honestly.
I honestly believe this is the main reason a lot of people go to church. The church I grey up in and the ones I would visit would have a 5-10 minute period at the beginning where everyone would walk around shaking hands and hugging. I imagine its the most skin-on-skin contact many people have in their week.
@@Hyphaenation_livelol😂. This is actually true. Though I’ve gone to church my whole life I was an incel in the late 90’s early 2000’s before there was a name for it. And did realize that one of the benefits of going to church on Sunday I always could count on a nice hug from one of the women at church. And if I dressed up I would get complimented on how nice I looked. Kind of sad but it got me through until I finally found my way out of that dark period in my life.
@Makehimfamous I know this was a long time ago but That's great and I'm happy to hear you managed to pull yourself out of inceldom before the echo chamber that is the internet pulled you further down. Side note, Back in the early 2000s I thought the internet would do nothing but improve the world. I honestly believed it and I've accepted that I was wrong. It hurts sometimes to think about what could have been but I've transitioned to just making my life and the lives of the ones I love better/comfortable.
@@Hyphaenation_live Yep, and leaving religion or getting shunned by your religion can be really difficult because all of a sudden you lose people who have been your family. People who will hug you and come pick you up from the side of the road if your car breaks down...
I..
Don't think it is on the same level. Not getting it won't kill you unless you're a baby.
I knew you were gonna slip a Tekken reference into this video and I'm glad I didn't have to wait long for it.
I'm not a fighting game nerd, but I'm a video game nerd in general and I'd love a Tekken video from FD
I dunno why but I imagined FD getting pieced up in a Tekken match, the guy kept givin him that rematch and he just kept getting smacked down and his tag name was some kind of dumb red pill reference and FD got so upset that he made an over hour and a half long video about, ya know, MANOSPHERE SUCKS! 😂
"to get that reminder that not everyone is on this bullshit" this is pretty much exactly why I watch you/noah/many others. I try to minimize my contact with manosphere content, usually just hiding channels that are too focused on it; but I also know that I can't keep a blind eye to it, so having channels like yours, where I can stay up to date, get a somewhat nuanced overview, and also be able to keep my distance from having to engage directly.
Not to mention just to help my sanity that the world isn't falling completely apart and at least SOME people actually notice how bad these things are getting...
That's what initially kept me here back when. I despise that entire sphere, and will never really understand how people fall into it. But I know enough to know that I can't turn a totally blind eye to it, so people like FD and Foreign are how I split the difference. It keeps me informed while still keeping a good distance. Plus it doesn't totally screw up my recommendeds for the next 2+ months.
Let's not act like Noah doesn't exude toxic masculinity
@@painunending4610 how?
I think you shouldnt avoid content taht you disagree wit. This creates echo chambers
@@julianslusser1275 did you actually read my entire comment? I explicitly pointed this out and how it related to the topic at hand...
I remember once when I was in the military and going through some shit mentally (mainly: that I shouldn't be in the military) I was talking with someone about my bad luck in dating. To clarify: it was quite literally bad luck, I wasn't looking for something super committed but every time I got into a casual relationship either the other person had a total change of heart or she got stationed somewhere else. It was all reasonable situations and none of it was bad because I learned a lot about relationships growing up. It was a such is life thing, and I was still engaging on my own terms but I was just a little bummed. I remember telling this person "yeah I don't really date. If something happens that's fine but..." and I was about to explain that I was only going to start looking for commitment once I was no longer in shitty ass military, this person goes "oh, are you lie, a Man Going There Own Way? Because I totally get that."
Mind you this was a cis woman who was married and who was probably just totally middle of the road in terms of someone in the military, but I remember thinking to myself "fuck me is that the vibe I give off?" It got in my head for like weeks. Every relationship insecurity I had manifested at once. I was only aware of the thing because of stuff I saw online making fun of guys, but I immediately starting looking through stuff within the phenomena.
The sexism was obvious immediately and I couldn't jive with it as someone who grew up with older sisters and women and queer friends. I started looking at normal dating social media places but I specifically sought out opinions of straight women and queer people. I started to recognize that there WERE aspects of my personality that were primary bricks in the build but were affecting my presentation. I was trying too hard to hype up my accomplishments, I was avoiding discussing passions of mine that weren't "cool" or that may have been interpreted as lame. Really everything was just me getting close to what I really felt and letting sleeping dogs lie. The only "change" I made was doing more grip and forearm workouts because that was like the only stereotype I consistently saw from people interested in straight guys lol. But really as soon as I got out the military and got a stable job, literally everything started working out and I'm super happy with my partner now, who is someone who my friends literally says "where were you all of his life?" when they meet her.
I look back at that day and my reaction the weeks after and thinking "thank god I had the tools to avoid the toxicity" and I worry about others who were in similar circumstances or who are more alienated than me going down that same track but not having the off ramp. I guess the point of this anecdote is to say I appreciate people like F.D, Noah, etc that do provide an offramp. The content is always gonna be there, the motivations will always be present under fascism, capitalism, and fascist capitalism, but there is validity in the whole "alternative" aspect of this issue.
Hell yeah, grats on the introspection and self awareness that lead you to grow in a positive way. As you recognized it’s not an easy thing, especially with capitalist alienation leaving us often broken. Your post is motivation material for sure
Dating in the military especially is pretty toxic from my experience, whether you're dating civilians or other military members. When I was in, everything was so temporary and people were only looking for hook-ups at most. Some people got lucky and found long-term relationships, but I feel like I'd see them leave the military not soon after.
Once I got out and I was being authentic, I definitely got more attention when I was in college even though it was still a challenge.
@@Anarchowolf yeah that was my experience as well. It helped I wasn’t in a military town or anything, and was back in an area similar to what I grew up in. One of the first girls I dated even asked me why I had such a drought and I was like “ever been to Norfolk, Virginia? No? Well if you ever go it’ll make more sense.”
Yeah, a lot of men really feel on their own when theyre suffering. Our current health system, and frankly, quality of therapists, isnt helping!!!
'cis'??
The “commodification of our grief” 😮 truly thats how we’re exploited in this capitalistic world. Young lonely men vilify women for their pain/suffering when woman are equally suffering loneliness/pressures of modern life (economy, technology, debt, stress)
I honestly don't think that you can compare male loneliness to female loneliness. Being lonely but having an abundance of romantic options gives a massive boost to your self esteem.
OK but have we tried sitting FD down in a room full of Only Fans models?
my friend Jamie Peck is a successful only fans model as her day job so she can make communist podcasts... could definitely see her as an interview subject!
Oh my gosh is she really?
@@julianbluefeather8491 lol yes, as of about a year ago
Are you throwing "communist" around or is she actually spewing communist rhetoric?@@sophcw
@@MrVIrginiaLUV"spewing"? Are you still buying into the red scare propaganda?
The manosphere videos actually helped me finally see, if anything, how some of my behaviors would look like I agreed with those men, so it helped me take a look inwards to just check if I was being unfair or if my behavior was directly or indirectly hurting others. I definitely don't want to be conflagrated with those types of people.
😢
"conflagrated" is a great touch here.
Also that's relatable.
@@calebbridges4748 yeah cause getting called an Andrew Tate fan because I liked The Joker is just wild. 💀💀💀
@@x__thesickest6388 for real! It's such a tough conversation to have both internally and with others. Sucks how things get conflated like that tbh.
Just submitted a funding proposal for some research into a topic that no one else seems to see potential in at my university or really academia wide. I've been dreading getting a response back like you got for your Manosphere stuff. Professors and researchers like to research the same shit, over and over and over and over and over again with slight variances each time. Education institutions are so resistant to change, ironically
William Costello did some research into incels. Is that the sort of research you were referring to? It was a small sample, but they're likely to do more expansive research.
@@toomuchinformation No, nothing like that. Let's just say that the intellectual merits of some entertainment mediums are not taken into account because of their audience, and I'm trying to call bullshit on that.
Here's an extended metaphor to keep me from spilling the beans or doxxing myself lol. Say you have a barrel of a fine wine; this wine represents the story that a writer is trying to tell. The glass you put it in is the medium for your message. I don't drink much, but I know that every type of wine has its own type of glass, and I also know that there is a stigma against using a box over a glass bottle of wine.
I'm weird in this metaphor. I don't like glassware, bottles or any of the traditional vessels. Manufacturers have come out with a completely new method to drink and store wine. But because it's not the traditional way with traditional packaging, wine connoisseurs are missing out on some of the best vino, getting caught up on the container that it exists in as if we're here to study the container only. WE'RE HERE FOR THE WINE
@@TheMagnanimousMany "The message is the medium" - Marshall McCluhan, Understanding Media.
I understand your metaphor, but the above phrase is still true. The vessel IS part of the story, which is why there is so much resistance to separating message and medium and it's interesting to ponder why this resistance exists.
Talking about the Manosphere in this video and using your wine metaphor.....the m'sphere often paints this bleak future for women as being alone with their boxed wine and cats.
It's always BOXED wine, never BOTTLE of wine because the different vessels convey a different message.
@@toomuchinformation This particular medium has been litigated for decades in academia, but they still haven't opened the box so to speak. It's like they keep reading the label over and over again, saying how poorly designed it is, but they haven't tasted it yet.
I understand that the medium is a part of the message, but for many academics with the topic I'm researching, the medium is the ENTIRE message. They're dismissive that anything valuable can be learned from it on principle. I know that my metaphor maybe muddies the water a bit, but I'm trying to keep some stuff close to the chest.
I have 2 daughters, and my 7yo hangs out with a few boys in my mom's neighborhood when we go over on weekends. One is a really sweet kid, the other is a bossy asshole. He is definitely raised with those toxic ideals of masculinity, I've met his dad. But I've noticed that just being around a girl who isn't intimidated by him and coming over and hearing how we talk with kids and each other has made him chill out over the past year. My daughter is more than happy to explain to him about having 2 dads and how one is trans (she's likes being the LGBTQ expert among them). He's also really impressed that I'm a molecular scientist; he asks me about science whenever he can.
Hopefully, he won't end up falling into the manosphere. Not when one of his best friends is a girl with queer parents who can literally pick him up and throw him (that child is crazy strong).
Oh that’s awesome
"That child is crazy strong" is a bar
That’s awesome - confident kindness can often overpower a bully, depending on various circumstances and factors.
I have observed teenage boys acting tough, putting down “kid movies” or something, and I’ll confidently say “aww come on, that movie will be cool!” And they’ll be like “oh… well… huh 🤔 maybe he’s right”
I’m also a man who cosplays “anime girls” a lot, and people will make fun of me - but I confidently joke back to them without bullying them, and without getting defensive, and sometimes they say “oh…. Huh… maybe I was wrong to judge 🤔”
I have a feeling they will have a wholesome friendship in years to come
FD, honest to god, no idea how you put out so much quality content so incredibly quickly. It is bananas. Take care of yourself man, love your work!
I'm autistic and I have multiple mental illnesses. Thank you SO much for not resorting to any form of ableism or sanism in your section about autism, while still pointing out bad behavior shouldn't be excused. Thank you for pointing out the studies that prove abuse victims usually don't become perpetrators. _Thank you._
I will say that not all autistic people dislike being infantilized, as long as it helps people treat them with the level of support they need with their developmental delays/disorder. For example I'm, relatively, a little childish. Sometimes/often I need people to explain big concepts like I'm a kid, even though I'm 26. But yeah generally the low support needs autistic community dislikes being infantilized, but that's just them
I would say there’s a slight nuance with infantilizing…a difference between respectfully simplifying versus treating autistic people as a toddler.
@@OctEddie yeah definitely
😮🎉😮😊
He referred to non-autistics as "neuro-typical" which is false because there is no model of a "typical neurology" and immediately went on to clarify "neurotypical" as meaning "NORMAL PEOPLE".
N O R M A L P E O P L E A R E N O T I N T E R E S T E D I N H E L P I N G U S B E C A U S E T H E Y A R E O U R I L L N E S S.
@@Jasmine69420 why are you calling people with allism "normal" 🧐🧐 go touch some grass
I’ve always felt that these “manosphere” spaces are literally just “safe spaces” that prevent you from personal growth. They present you with what you are comfortable with and reinforce your existing biases and ideals. They don’t question these feelings rather they use them as a tool to further fuel your emotions
Safe spaces that are coincidentally, incredibly harmful to the men they are claiming to support.
They take normal teenage boy insecurity and turn it up to 11 and then take their money.
That's what makes a scapegoat so appealing
They’re not really safe spaces since if you bring any small sense of self awareness and introspection you are alienated immediately. A safe space, imo, would value introspection and self awareness.
@@juvedoo99Exactly, its more like a “stifle space” but I’m not sure that has the same ring to it. I think of safe spaces typically like therapy, a safe space for growth and vulnerability. And spaces that are echo spaces but stomp out true growth or vulnerability are not safe.
Your essays are amazing. But i dont hear enough about how good your art direction and editing is. Honestly your videos always look so good!
I'm a clinical mental health counselor who works with 16-24 year olds. And most if my male clients will at least reference the manosphere as a positive source of information. Some of my female clients are dating some of those same pro-manosphere guys and are in psychologically abusive relationships. They are property to be dominated and ran.
This must be your experiance. Multiple studies shown that Lesbian couples have a substantially higher levels of physical abuse. But hey your practice might say otherwise.@diallo1347
@@diallo1347 Wait, how can gay couples have higher physical abuse if said physical abuse is more prevalent in heretosexual couples? Or was the first sentence only comparing lesbian and gay couples?
@@graeschnahmoffski5716it sounds like it was only first addressing the lesbian couple. then they shared information about abuse in heterosexual couples.
@@diallo1347 also, the study that most cite as lesbians being the most physical a busive didn't look at the actual study properly.
The study asked if any couples had experiences any a buse at any point, and lesbians pointed out that only when they were in relationships with men before being with women
But that narrative doesn't fit the manosphere belief so they conveniently ignore that very small, but very important, part.
@@taylormade9748 100%
I think data tracking over IP address can also play a role. I do internet research as my job and work from home, and when I research a company my husband will end up with ads on his phone for it.
I started watching this video on Friday and came back to it today and now he's getting ads for Jordan Peterson content. So if one person in the household is consuming content, maybe an older sibling or a parent, even if it's a video like this one, I'm guessing it's possible the younger people in the household will have their recommendations affected as well.
Man one time I thought about an old movie I hadn’t seen in years during a walk outside, and by the time I made it back a review for the movie was suggested on TH-cam 😂
Yeah, sometimes when I'm watching a video, I'll feel like googling something that was mentioned - or even just a random thought that was prompted by what was in the video - and I only get as far as a couple of characters in before Google auto-fills the very specific, left-field question I was going to ask it. It creeps me the hell out.
The only “dating coach” I ever found worth listening to was Stephen Erdman. He taught really innocent stuff like getting the negative assumptions out of your head, and replacing them with the assumptions that 1. Most people are potential friends until proven otherwise. 2. Most women are kind, so the approach is nothing to fear.
Yes! That's a healthy and helpful approach❤
Most women are not kind. Neither are most guys.
And even if they are kind, that doesn't mean they'd be into you. Kindness has nothing to do with being interested in dating someone. If anything, they'd be too nice to reject and end up hurting themselves.
I can, however, think of reasons to still not approach. And if you have a disorder that makes it difficult or impossible to gauge a situation...then it might be wise to stick to some rules of thumb that might discourage one from approaching, but would also spare others discomfort or worse.
@@tristanband4003 I’m autistic myself. I never got any worse than “thanks, but no thanks 😊” when turned down
@@ofmonadsandnomads9500 Well i was autistic in the 2000s. Got quite bit worse than that.
okay i just need to celebrate HOW HAPPY I AM that you interviewed autistic people for this video and that you addressed the ways that movements based on readings of vague social cues (like gender) can target neurodivergent people differently. i've noticed a huge issue online lately where progressive people will claim to be against ableism, but then also assume that neurodivergent people will pick up on the exact same cues they do. i'm likely autistic (diagnosed OCD & ADHD, but pretty sure about the autism too) and i've gotten a lot of comments from supposed "allies" claiming that i'm stupid because i didn't pick up on a certain gender cue or a certain piece of "socialization" as a woman. i think there's a HUGE issue with ableism online and i'm just SO GLAD that you addressed it in this way, without excusing any manosphere behavior, but taking the time to understand the nuances. THANK YOU
WAKE UP BABE THE NEW F.D. SIGNIFIER VIDEO ESSAY JUST DROPPED
I'm 21 years old and the emphasis on being in a relationship that I've noticed my generation have is staggering both men and women. I've heard 19 and 20 years talk about wanting to find a partner before they get "too old" as if they're not literally in the prime of their lives with many years ahead of them to figure life out.
capitalism and patriarchy and the people who perpetuate its ideals like the manosphere has convinced people that if you're not rich, married, and living in a huge house by the time youre 28 then you're a failure, and with social media and all the ways people can get this messaging that message is louder than ever
Facts ngl im 21 as well in college and am always stressed if i dont find anyone in college i wont find anyone after mainly because there is not alpt of third spaces after college that are thriving so i feel it would be harder to meet someone
Trust me, it wasn't any different back in the mid 00s. I remember being 14 and every movie that I saw either implicitly or explicitly told its male audiences that they were loses if they couldn't get a GF, and that having sex and having a girl who will repeatedly have sex with you, will automatically fix all of your problems.
I just got married at 30 last year and it broke my heart to hear my sister in law talking about feeling like she's "behind" because she's 23 and not in a relationship. She and my husband both come from a more conservative culture than I do, so I think that plays a part, but I agree that among my gen Z friends and acquaintances there does seem to be a trend around that idea.
I'm a 23 male and idgaf about any relationship 😂😂
Schrodinger's Alpha Male: wants to treat women like trash, yet needs to get married and have kids to define himself by his stereotypical roles
The idea that there is a way to script your conversations to control women or other people in-general.
This is really appealing to a young man growing up with an autistic mind. The idea that there is some sequence of words and actions that makes a person "normal" or desirable. I can see how, especially children, will latch onto this manosphere-pandering content and internalize the rhetoric. I can really appreciate how lucky I was to have the good influences in my life, when I look around these parasocial spaces like youtube and FB.
I’m generally not someone who comments-I tend to lurk and learn. However, your content often makes me want to engage in the discourse, not to undermine but to question and contribute. But just when I’m ready to jump in, you pull a “bait and switch,” addressing topics and systemic details at the end that I feared might be overlooked. It’s a humbling experience, and kudos to you for that.
One thing I’d like to add to the conversation is that I struggle with the statement, "It's more work to raise a boy to be problematic than to raise a nice kid." While I agree that it would take significant effort to create an “Andrew Tate-type” figure, this perspective can unintentionally demean individuals who face challenges in parenting due to familial trauma (from either parent) or socioeconomic circumstances. Parenting is complex for many reasons, and it often involves breaking generational cycles of distorted viewpoints. While I agree that children are inherently kind, sustaining that kindness amidst societal pressures can be challenging, and it should be seen as a rewarding effort rather than an easy one.
Figures like Tate may be influential, but the individuals who latch onto this rhetoric are often those who have experienced neglect or have had misguided parental role models.
16:23 I think the reason why these manosphere characters tend to be men of colour with patriarchal beliefs is because a patriarchal systems grants them *power* in a world where they have *less power than the white man*
Preach💯💯💯💯💯💯💯
Bro the only reason black people are in America is because are ancestor were gay and there were egalitarian and matrilineal societies (Yes there were patriarchies, the continent was diverse asf) pre-colonial Africa.
@@mewtwo4042 Thought slavery happened in America because it was a big colonised land with inexperienced people that quickly needed free labour to make a livelihood. The pilgrims used Abrahamic religions to justify the system because it had a framework on how to own a slave and later scientific racism. While Africa had a multitude of reasons as to why it happened, the main one being slavery has always fluctuated throughout the world because there are economic incentives for people to pursue slavery.
@@mewtwo4042LOL. Where are you getting this information from. And by the way most societies have gay people in them. Why are you trying to make it a race issue. It's not. You think there weren't white gay men before we came along?😂😂😂
@@mewtwo4042...?
Yooooo HAHAHA THE THUMBNAIL HAS ME DYING
bro u ive seen u in FDs comments at least twice now didnt know u had such good taste
As an autistic woman, it’s always jarring how socially different it can be from autistic men
How?
@@ChillingTales12I’m not speaking from hostility here at all, but I am genuinely a bit taken aback at the nuance autistic men are granted over autistic women (such as the segment in this video) despite them both being in that neurodivergent group. Autistic women are not really given that grace or have studies done on them and they’re just as vulnerable and susceptible to falling into mindsets like this except instead of incels, they’re pick mes. I’m not saying autistic men have it better than autistic women but I am saying, I’m experiencing seeing this nuance in real life and I genuinely did not know this group of people were being granted that and I’m glad it’s happening and it needs to happen further
@@NeonTwilight What About nonbinary autistics? Where do they go or do you just beleive in two gendesr and none of that trans stuff?
@@ChillingTales12I’m not sure what that had to do with me talking about people who identify as and are socialized as men and women and I think this is a separate conversation to have but I don’t think trans folks are bad or anything if that’s what you’re getting at lmao. I’m sure they have their own unique experience that they can speak from personally and I encourage them to
@@ChillingTales12buddy it's going to be ok
I really appreciate these videos, my brother has been using more and more concerning rhetoric and I just didn't know how to begin to understand him. These videos have helped me ,as an AFAB person, to gain perspective and hopefully find common ground with him again.
That's a big undertaking. Hope you're doing alright and finding that common ground
1:13:10 I'm glad you put these two clips in. I really hate the way a lot of online anti-incel types engage with people who really don't fit the profile. It's just straight up bullying in a lot of cases. All it does is reaffirm their inadequacies.
I think it's important to balance criticism of "male [edit: and female] entitlement" with genuine empathy for how painful it is to not experience any love or intimacy, especially for extended periods of time. There's a lot of people out there who feel hopeless who don't have entitled attitudes, and a lot of entitled people can be led out of their mindset with proper guidance.
@@MachFiveFalconhostile men are not entitled to mollycoddling from the people they victimise.
@@simplyharkonnenWhat do we mean by "hostile"? Exhibiting a violent intent or just hateful?
@@simplyharkonnen[Edit: I was not talking about sympathy/"mollycoddling" from "the people they victimize"/women at all - just want to be clear.] ... Hostile men should absolutely be confronted, stopped, and reported to the police if they did anything criminal. I'm sorry if I came across like I meant anything different. But there are men who have entitled beliefs who bottle it up where it's harder to change there minds. And there are men who express entitled attitudes to women after rejection ("Why I am I not good enough for you?") but don't harass/keep pursuing them and move on.
I'm not defending these people's thoughts/words, but I think talking to/about them the same as actual predators for their beliefs would backfire and push them into denial that their beliefs are wrong. [Edit: I'm talking about their friends and people they talk to online - NOT women who rejected them.]
@@MachFiveFalcon
Okay let me rephrase: Men-as-‘individuals’ are not owed sympathy, good-faith engagement, or really anything at all by people victimised by men-as-class.
Want to be treated better? Do better. Each and every one of those things is CHOOSING to be the way they are.
The thing about the "get a hobby!" advice for lonely men is that it runs totally counter to the way people are usually taught to go after the things they want in life.
In most other parts of life, if we want something, like a dream job or wealth or fitness or success in some art form, we're told to actively work hard at that goal as much as possible in the hopes of getting our shot at success.
For men (and everyone else tbh) who are starved for touch, affection & intimacy, it is incredibly aggravating to be told to do something entirely unrelated to dating ("get a hobby") that will potentially help you meet people, because "meeting people" isn't intimacy, it isn't touch or affection, it isn't the goal. And I think we all understand that you can't turn up to a new hobby, like a dance class, explicity looking to pursue people there who will give you those things - that makes you a creeper.
Personally, I hated every minute of using dating apps and I consider myself lucky to be in a relationship which didn't necessitate the use of one, but I think dating apps don't get the respect they actually do deserve - they are a tool to clearly and unambiguously seek out exactly what you want, instead of having to passively "be yourself, have some offline interests, and hope love comes along one day".
To be clear, I think that the advice to be always on the grind is also bad when given for the other forms of success I mentioned, it perpetuates the false narrative that the world is a meritocracy and simply working really hard at something will eventually pay off, when in reality high levels of success are usually down to luck, with competency being an important secondary concern.
But, at least with those other forms of success, you *can* grind away at them, becoming more competent and hoping to get your shot. With relationships, a lot of realistic advice gives no suggestion to **do** anything that will provide immediately observable progress towards the goal, like your bank balance going up does for people who want to be rich.
This is why people like Andrew Tate sell the myth that being jacked and having Bugattis will attract women - because at least being jacked and buying Bugattis are concrete goals to work towards, regardless of whether women give a shit.
There was discourse recently that "the left gives brain-dead advice to young men", but in reality the left just doesn't lie to men about the messy, complicated, and unordered ways the world works. There's no bank balance, there's no number to track, for finding love.
I agree with so much of what you're saying, but I think that "self-improvement" can be positive when it's not redpill nonsense and not paired with false expectations. Not everyone can become immensely wealthy or become "jacked", but growing a career and becoming fitter can help men get more dates. When you can't find love, those "concrete goals" are all you have and feel a lot better than nothing. It just shouldn't be seen as the "end all be all".
I understand how people with linear, goal-focused thinking would be turned off by more circuitous advice. It’s probably frustrating. But it works. Just more slowly. The way it helps is by assisting in rounding a person out. Especially people with little experience socializing with others.
As a cis woman, alarms go off when a cis man laser focuses on you, without ever having interacted with you before. You get the strong sense that this person only sees you as an attractive member of the opposite sex. As for your inner workings…they’re pinning what they hope you are on you. So much uncomfortable expectation to be just like their daydream, and save them. It feels like being a placeholder.
So a group activity over a long period of time, where people let down their defenses, where you get to appreciate people’s quirks and passions…that’s really beneficial.
I sometimes get the idea that some cis men know that women don’t like to be objectified, but THEY would like to be objectified. Because it would be so much easier than having to be funny, or interesting, or competent at something. And women are sick of being objectified because it’s been happening since we were children. It means very little. But someone who gets to know your personality, your intelligence, your accomplishments…that feels amazing. Even more so when put up against someone who only values your little waist, big tits, and hips.
Real life interactions are so important in order not to “other”.
@@tesselate8nowait262 That's really great advice I wish I had a while back lol. For socially awkward/shy guys, it can feel impossible to stand out in group activities. But, as you said, you need to develop social skills before trying to date. And you're right about some men wanting to feel objectified. Not only does it feel more "concrete" and stable than accomplishments mixed in with the ups and downs of life, it also removes doubts like "Maybe she's not physically attracted to me - she only likes my personality, career, or money." Which as you said, is the reverse for women. And I'm NOT saying those feelings men face are good. It's just the reality of self-doubt I and other men experience. I think we all want to be loved for all aspects of who we are.
@@MachFiveFalcon thing is self-improvement doesn't actually make you more attractive to women. I should know, I've been doing it for years and the number of women attracted to me is zero
We should stress to young men that self-improvement is purely for themselves and that women don't care so don't get caught up in what they think
@@tesselate8nowait262 as a man I would LOVE to be objectified! I hate that women are attracted to shallow stuff like humour and confidence and personality. I want to be appreciated for who I am
Hats off to your editor. FD's work is stellar, as always.
You do make a difference with this content, I am forever grateful for your insightful observations, empathy and grace to cover this issues
Lindsey Ellis, if your reading every comment here. Thanks for doing a voice over, i will continue to listen to your nebula content but i cant comment/upvote there.
the nebula commenrt section is "on R/nebula" . this was told to me by nebula mods. so you can post there!
Its sad that yall ate her. That woman is my sworn enemy but she was a talented foe. Shame
His salary buys less, but his pride begs him to say, “The woman in my life doesn't have to work, and I like it that way.” What he really may mean is that although his harem has only one occupant at a time, he does not want her wandering about too freely without the veil that the home provides. He is not nearly as secure in his masculine role as he would have others believe, and he allows his mate’s growing independence to threaten him emotionally.”
Men’s Liberation Jack Nichols 1975
Have you noticed how expensive everything has become? My girl doesn't have go work, but if she chose to, I wouldn't be complaining about the extra money 😂.
I knew a guy who actively obstructed his gf from getting a drivers license or academic qualifications, and would sabotage her employment, to keep her as dependent as possible. It was so fucked up. I was as angry at her as at him, she chose to stay with him and go back to him for years. Watching those 2 implode was the closest I got to being an incel (I had a crush on her and considered myself 'friendzoned', of course).
Describe my dad perfectly
@@boiledelephantwhy are you mad at her for being psychologically abused by a man?
@@rainrainlsn I think that OP was just describing how they felt at the time.
I’m a lonely disabled 22yo, so I really appreciated the segment about disability and loneliness. As a disabled person, a lot of the time I feel like I’m not allowed to talk about my own loneliness, about my needs and desires for touch and intimacy as to not make everyone around me uncomfortable. It’s even harder (for me) as a straight disabled man because a lot of the discourse around disability and dating are typically dominated by people trying to date men (straight women and gay men), not saying their perspectives aren’t valid or useful, but having a disabled man talk about his experiences on trying to date women, just feels more relatable and validating to me. It just makes me feel less alone seeing someone as close to me as possible, struggling with the same things I am.
I’d be lying if I said that I’m still not a little frustrated with my loneliness, but I think making a video talking about my difficulties with self confidence and feeling deserving of love and reaching out to other disabled people on their experinces, would be a much better use of my time than sitting here bitter on my phone lol.
(I’m going blind in both my eyes btw, Retinitis Pigmentosa and ADHD)
Thank you for your comment
I am your same age but I am a girl. Can I pray for your healing? God healed me of some chronic illnesses that had no cure. You can be healed if you believe
You are still very young and will have so many opportunities to meet people. For reference, I am 35, straight cis woman with no disability or mental illness, and I've been single for the last 12 years. My issue is that I have too much self esteem for most men to handle and I don't let people mistreat me... so it's not necessarily about being able bodied or disabled (though of course it makes it harder). Life is kind of random with stuff like love... This is kind of a weird way to do it but I am trying to be encouraging. 😅
Thank you for being so candid and open in sharing your experience. People find community when they share their experience, but often they feel they are the only one in their situation and remain quiet. I hope you are encouraged to just continue to open and share and find community 🫶🏾
@@fran791Not helping
I thought "incel" meant "involuntary celibate."
I have always felt like a "reject."
And nothing can seemingly fix that.
I learned not to be angry about things I have no control over.
I am a much happier person these days for that.
Much more well adjusted.
F.D, I should thank you for including us autistic in your research, because we are often ignored or straight up excluded from researches involving the lack of friends, family support, relationship and other social researchs that may or may not involves the manosphere, most of us are ostracized, most of us never had a relationship with a partner, we are literally alienated from society because we are the weird ones that nobody wants to make contact with unless if its for mocking and shaming us, making us have social anxiety, depression, rejection anxiety, we are so vulnerable and the world is so aggressive against us, not even our family seems to accept us
Ngl, I have a friend who is autistic and I never truly understood his struggle until I came across this post, so thank you for posting.
My brother is raising a boy, and while I know he's really engaged in his son's life and wants his son to be loving and kind, I'm so glad people make videos like this
As an Autistic woman: Thank you!!! Thank you for talking about the elephant in the room in such a nuanced and empathetic way. Making space for Autistic people's loneliness and social struggles, addressing the con artists who exploit that, all without letting incels/blackpilled-/redpilled men off the hook.
Ok
You goofy
But it’s not just autistic people who struggle in dating, you have people across the neurodivergent spectrum that have issues in dating too (ADHD, schizophrenic, bipolar, depression, anxiety)
❤❤❤
@@superdupeninja8149 That's a lot of words just to say "but what about meeeeee? 😩"
As a UK mum.. single parent of a son... I appreciate the commentary of this channel...as a direct antidote to the whole 'Tate' vibe ..
It sure 'helped/helps', me xX☮️
Thank you
I can't wrap my head around how someone can claim being an "alpha male" while also being a dutiful follower of other men who tell them what kind of man they should be. I can't imagine anything more beta than that. I also love that they insist that there's no gender spectrum, but then went ahead and invented their own (alpha, beta, sigma, soy boy, etc etc).
Well, I mean, I think this whole thing spawned from Omegaverse fanfiction anyway and the manosphere just rebranded it, so...
Also, if you don't know what Omegaverse fanfiction is, um...keep it that way
Bro also pointed out that masculinity has always been questioned and there's no hard evidence of there ever being a time in which real men were set in stone.
@@eggsandbacon892 I wonder what a 'sigma' would be in the ABO context... Man, it would be hilarious to see a competent author pull off adding that to the ABO spectrum.
@@eggsandbacon892 recently saw some guy proudly call himself and omega and wanted to die💀
@@W-I463I'm not very well versed on the term, but isn't an omega male like the bottom of the chain? lmfao
Zatzman is such a talented video editor.
one other factor about neurodivergence is that it also makes you more vulnerable to dopamine manipulation and emotional manipulation that gets you addicted to social media. i know it's super common with my adhd friends, even though they're addicted to doomscrolling instead of the manosphere, their brain is more vulnerable to getting stuck on consuming content
This 100%. I like to think I’m pretty savvy about all this shit. But I’m still on here watching
I like that you address the neurodivergent factor as part of what may lead people into these spaces! I'm Autistic and the challenges that come with that are often relatively invisible.
Just hearing people say that these barriers are real is validating, and I think that may be part of the pull of communities that offer an outlet of anger and frustration. They misdiagnose the cause of that of course. But if nobody is talking about the actual causes, men are going to look for people who are offering answers.
Thank you for talking to First as Tragedy and letting him share his understanding of ableism and systemic discrimination. I understand this isn't your main focus but I greatly respect your insights into masculinity and the discussions happening in this space.
I think the issues around how neurodivergent people interface with male identity probably needs more attention. No big deal but you are probably my favourite content creator on this platform. So you being willing to look at this subject with your characteristic thoughtfulness and empathy gives me some hope that more discussions will happen both on and off-line to help create more positive masculine identities.
This is meaningful for neurodivergent men especially, but as you mention working towards shifting ideals around masculinity will probably reduce the incidence of harm by men towards other people (be they women, non-binary people, or just other men).
I also really like the parts you shared from The Bully Society by Jessie Klein. What she says about the cultural changes that happened during and after Reagan maps really well onto what Tragedy talking about. Klein points out that 'Increasingly, success was defined in terms of power, economic attainment and social status'. This is the ideal that Tragedy talks about as 'finally achieveing the desire of... normativity', the thing which Manosphere personalities are selling.
Despite being Autistic I'm relatively privileged in terms of race and normative appearance. I can only imagine that Autistic and neurodivergent people at intersections of systemic disadvatage - like racism or physical disability - may find capitalistic patriarchal culture even more oppressive. This flip side being that positive counter-examples like yourself (and Foreign, and CJ the X) may be even more meaningful to young Autistic men of colour.
There's other stuff to discuss. I've been thinking about women and enbies on the spectrum lately, and I'm very glad you point out that autistic women can *also* struggle with loneliness. I love your respect and support for women. I'm happy that Eddie mentions (in passing) asexuality and aromanticism. I'm asexual myself, and ten years ago nobody would have even thought to mention our community. The need for physical contact that Eddie talks about is still very much present for a lot of us, just expressed in a different way.
In conclusion, I think you did good work here. Why do we raise men with the ideal of being 'strong' instead of patient or creative? Identity is such a complex fabric weaved from many strands. Thank you for bringing in different voices to help paint a more nuanced picture of what men are taught, and some of the factors that have brought us into the world where we are in now.
49:06 " if we're looking at optimising engagement, we are often looking at amplifying strong emotions, and *disincentivising nuance* " is a fascinating take /gen
Man, I have so many old friends who would never listen to a suggestion from me that I PRAY stumble upon your content. Very good video.
Yo I know that feeling perfectly 😭
problem is not just that manosphere being extreme but also the other side of leftist extreism that makes people scared to change.
Not really. Like the left isn't a Monolith. You don't have to share all views to be a leftist. There os no organization that tests you and I think that understanding is an important part to let go of finding a community where everyone agrees on every single thing to building connections that are loving and kind. I think it's bery dishonest to paint the left as so scary that incels are afraid to stop hating women.
@@M.I.N.A. All political views nowadays are nothing but a cespit of toxicity. I dont think you should follow tate nor hasan abi both are sides from the same coin which is extremism sucking away any individuality
@@Calisthenics_Enjoyer I just said that's not how it works. Neither Tate nor Hasan are a worldview. They share their worldview and you might agree but they are still saying what other people have said already just with their personality. They have a goal to spread that world view and make money. That's not community work that is being a fan. Maybe that's the actual issue that when someone says leftism you think of online personalities and not actual political theories and practicing them. I'm actually a little flabbergasted, but I've learned something. And Hasan.... isn't even an extreme leftist. Extrem leftists beat up cops and destroy personal property. That would be a somewhat fair comparison to Tate. Not someone whos effectively chilling on twitch.
As an Autistic person who is also queer, physically disabled, and often perceived as a "screeching SJW" by misogynists (I work in tech, so this is every day for me), thank you for addressing the topic of Autism within the manosphere so maturely and responsibly. It's real, and it's important to talk about. It's also a very easily misused and weaponised talking point against an extremely vulnerable community. Thank you for representing that nuance.
How's it in the manosphere when most people with autism are progressives and push for leftwing policies that help autism?
I'm a therapist and I had a patient who was both on the spectrum and into Andrew Tate. What you stated in the video rings so true.
Were you able to pull him out of it?