One of my favorite moments in Betrayer is when Lorgar realizes Guilliman never hated him. As they fight on Nuceria, he realizes Guilliman is hurt by the suffering that has wracked his worlds when he never hated Lorgar. It’s depressing. Lorgar sees this and feels like he needs to explain everything to his brother, but he knows his brother will never forgive him for what has happened to his worlds.
There are humans who will not look within themselves maybe for fear or arrogance. Introspection is not just a human trait but the trait of a decent human.
@@cwiesner77ify or nobody BETTER suited you mean. El Johnson would start a Civil War. The Khan wouldn't give a fuck. Russ would lead The Entire Imperium straightforward into The Immaterium. Vulcan would breastfeed the Masses and forget all about the Politics and Practicality. Dorn would just hunker down Terra and send Mass Armadas on suicide missions. Corax would be Corax. So yes. Robute is the BEST Primarch to reorganize and make a sound plan to launch the New Imperium.
When logar cheap shots roboute and roboute doesn't do anything in return , this kinda explains why he doesnt. Roboute took no pleasure in raising monarchia, utterly crushed himself that it had to happen. Perhaps he felt he deserved that shot, understanding his brothers pain, maybe he felt he would've done the same. Great writing. Good upload Rho
Though he's a Primarch, I can only imagine in those moments alone, Guilliman closing his eyes and seeing the flames leaping as the consumed The Most Holy City, smelling the soot that followed, feeling the the emptiness of what remained... And then mourning what was lost that day. Building and monuments reduced to ashes. Beliefs and closely held faith turned to dust. A brother stripped to his soul. A brother humiliated. A brother...betrayed. Not just betrayed but devastated by the One entity in the whole galaxy--in the whole Universe--that he would have torn his very arm free if presented the option of "Disappoint your father" or "Nay". I wonder if Guilliman heard the strident desperation in Logar's voice, almost willing the words spoken to not be true. Did Guilliman feel the deep sort of sadness that he barely had a name to describe at knowing the will opposite of his brother was far greater than anyone had ever known? It was more than just a city. In that moment, their father had ripped his brother's heart from his chest for all to see. And Guilliman had helped. He had not slaughtered the lamb of faith but he had made it ready for the methodical butcher clad in gold. He may have mourned the Monarchia, what he had to do, what his sons had to do. But I think Guilliman mourned what he lost that day too among the desolation he'd caused: A brother.
Damn, that's accurate. Guilliman must've known, no matter what happened after Monarchia, Lorgar would forever DESPISE him. All that battles could've won together, the works they could've built together and the laughter and joy they could've shared together. Gone. Even if there was no Horus Heresy, any chance of a bright future between Word Bearers and Ultramarines died with the city their father murdered.
Guilliman is a tragic primarch.. Think about it.. He supposedly has the "perfect" legion and is a "perfect" primarch.. His legion boasts complete geneseed organ count, disciplined, flexible, adaptable has the largest number of worlds conquered and remade.. He is a statesman, a warrior king, an architect, a mediator for his brothers and a confidante for the emperor.. He acts logically and rationally, doesn't let his emotions get the best of him and is welcome to scrutiny by "lesser" men.. He got a scolding from a grey knight when he was falling into a trap by mortarion during the plague wars.. Not only that but he, despite being a primarch, asked permission from blood angels astartes if he could speak to their chapter master dante.. Imagine what that would have been like if you were right there.. A legendary being so vast not only in his deeds but his physical stature as well humbling himself to be given permission to intrude on a meeting conducted by another chapter.. Take all that into account then think what it would have been like for guilliman to be told "I don't think of you, any of you as my sons."
@@randomcenturion7264 the emperor for all his grand powers and authority was in the end a man.. He was not a good father overall.. He played favorites especially towards sanguinius, vulkan, rogal and corax..
@@justinokraski3796 don't.. There are passages where he used to but in his current state he lost most of his humanity trying to keep the ruinous powers at bay.. I think he genuinely loved a lot of his sons such as ferrus and vulkan and felt genuine pride in their accomplishments.. But after 10k plus years of being stuck in lifesupport and having to eat thousands of psykers just to keep going for another day that wears on him..
@@lavatun Forgot to include Fulgrim in the list. His definite favorite. E's really lucky Jhagatai wasn't a spiteful moron. Which then makes me think that Cegorach did that on purpose, choosing Jhagatai out of all of them to switch with Fulgrim. Just seems too tactical to be for the lulz.
I think Guilliman's penchant for stoicism and procedure was him hiding his sensitive and complex feelings behind a wall of discipline. I think he and Lorgar are extremely similar, yet where Lorgar treats his feelings as a strength, Guilliman treats his feelings as something to be contained and controlled
Even at Calth when the full scale of the treachery is revealed to Guilliman when he speaks to Lorgar (shortly before his apparation becomes a daemon and blows up the bridge of his command ship) Guilliman says that he knew that he talked to his brother (and not a daemon masquerading as him) and that he felt the grief and regret in Lorgar. He also explicitly says "Lorgar does not want this. He knows he is being manipulated". Well we all know that despite that knowledge he utterly hates him later when he goes toe to toe with him in "Betrayer"... which again displays the tragedy of the Heresy. Now Lorgar has a revelation.. Guilliman had never hated him until Calth, and that he all imagined it before. And that only now, after the destruction of Monarchia his bruther truly had started to hate him and simply wanted to see him dead.
I really enjoyed this one! Good job Rho! This makes me think a lot about the last time Guilliman actually tried to communicate with Lorgar, right before the Battle of Calth. In the initial stages of that battle, he urges Lorgar to cease his attack so that the two of them can talk and try and sort things out. It’s only as the Word Bearers’ attack intensifies that he countermands that statement. For those who are curious, the last time we know Guilliman tried to communicate with Lorgar went as follows: “My brother, hear me. Warriors of the XVIIth Legion, hear me. This violence is against the code of the Legiones Astartes and against the will of our father, the Emperor. In the name of the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar, I implore you to cease fire and stand down. Open communication with me. Let us speak. Let us settle this. This action is an error of the most tragic kind. Cease fire. I, Roboute Guilliman, give you my solemn pledge that we will deal with each other frankly and fairly if these hostilities can be suspended. I urge you to respond.”~VOX TRANSMISSION, PRIMARCH ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN - BATTLE OF CALTH, MARK 0.00.01 “Lorgar of Colchis. You may consider the following. One: I entirely withdraw my previous offer of solemn ceasefire. It is cancelled, and will not be made again, to you or to any other of your motherless bastards. Two: you are no longer any brother of mine. I will find you, I will kill you, and I will hurl your toxic corpse into hell's mouth.” ~VOX TRANSMISSION, PRIMARCH ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN - BATTLE OF CALTH, MARK 1.57.42 So here we really can see that Guilliman really did try to reconcile with Lorgar. He endured nearly two hours of his fleet being razed at anchor by the Word Bearers; he endured two hours of Calth’s own weapons being turned on his fleet and the local planetary system; and he endured the loss of hundreds, if not thousands of his own sons for two hours just to try and reconcile with Lorgar. It was all in vain, however, and Guilliman could not abide by it any longer, and the second transmission shows just how truly betrayed and angry he was. But! If y’all want more of that juicy stuff, then go read about the Battle of Calth in its own Horus Heresy book! :D
Awesome as always. Please, cover Gage's reaction to the codex Astartes drafts. It is in the same book. It shows how he wrote it for the Ultramarines first, and the rest of the astartes second
I said it before and I'll say it again. Clone Fulgrim should be the next Primarch to return. Not only would it be unexpexted. But it would be a significant shift in Mankind and Necron relation. We all know Trayzon has him in stasis. And like The Phoenix... Arises from The Ashes. Reborn. And the side story of the beef between Gullimen and Fulgrim would be great. Fulgrim atoning for his mistakes and sins, Becoming The Herald of The Emperor. Taking The Emperor's Claw like how Robute took The Emperor Sword from their Father. Kinda writes itself. Robute as Imperial Lord Commander and Fulgrim as Herald of The Imperium. Could even come down to Fulgrim literally killing his old self. The Demon he became. Reclaiming himself and being redeemed in every way.
@@Sephvion I don't think he would have a chapter. Just a Herald of Gullimen. Not a Warmaster or Lord Regent. Just a personal right hand badass to be sent into battle.
@@Sephvion The Sons of the Phoenix are allready there, a chapter created by Cawl itself, and it would be fitting that he bargains whit Trazin for the "clone". A version of Fulgrim (as loyal as he turn out to be) would have to hide at first and that would hurt his enormous pride, allso the relationship whit Guilliman... man theres so much awesome potential for the fluff to advance in this direction.
@@kevinkaczynski1952 One of the white scars novels, the one where Bjorn shouts over them and says it had to be done stating Magnus was too far gone and that he had no regrets and russ shouldnt either.
@@HammarPwnsYourFace There's multiple books where he expressed regret or frustration. Wolfsbane has a good part during the meeting between the Primarchs and Malcadore.
Yeah Lorgar received a royal asswhooping from corax the shadowed lord. I think the emperor knew guilliman would do the job efficiently without much emotion. Can you imagine sending Leman of the Russ?
Leman would have refused because his role is the Emperors executioner and he was one of the Primarchs who spoke out against wiping the Word Bearers from Imperial records. Also the thing you need to remember about Leman Russ is that he hides a noble spirit under the guise of a barbarian king and would probably burst out laughing if Lorgar sucker punched him..
Rogal Dorn would have also refuse because it's revealed in a scene during the Emperor of Mankind book that he has some very high standards when it comes to morality and honour.
I actually want the Blood Angels or Luna Wolves doing this. Everyone respected the Angel and Horus, Horus would be able to make up with Lorgar later anyways.
I honestly thought the Guilliman had thought of Lorgar as being ignorant and oblivious. The fact that he didn't really want to make his brother feel the way that he did but knew why he had to burn manarchia really speaks of Guillimans abilities to grasp a situation.
Lorgar found out during his pilgramige inside the Eye of Terror that Guilliman never actually hated and was told he had a choice to make during the upcoming battle of Calth either let Guilliman live or kill Guilliman and risk losing the war due to the unrestrained anger of Ultramar. Which is why Kor Phaeron was in command of the Calth operation and Lorgar was strangely absent. This took place in the Aurelian Novella, which is part of the Eye of Terra omnibus.
Great upload, Wolf Lord! Was really nice to witness another human appearance of papa smurf! Now that Lorgar is mentioned, would be joyful to hear about his last encounter with Corax, actually:)
Sometime I think either the Emperor or the Universe (or GW) loves to torture Guilliman. Everytime he is trying to do something this something turns around punch him in the guts : Monarchia resulted in Calth, Pharos attracted tyrannids, Imperium Secundus bleed out Terra from nessesary resources, Codex Astartes, his own book, that he quite directly said should not be used like a bible, well, you know how “modern” smurfs are, don’t you? And now Dark Imperium... It is like anti-Matt Ward hangover for him.
This is a great reflection on Gilimans character and his feeling on not just The Raising of Monarchia, take his conversation with Mortarian when they remet, he took his brothers betrays personally and it hurt. He wasn't just disappointed with what had become of them, but truly saddened by how far they had fallen from there on self. I wonder how things could have change had Logar and Giliman spoken after The Emperor and Malcador left and I dont mean fight or yell it out but truly spoken to one another, could it have help held Logar from Heresy or perhaps Perhaps the Opposite to begen Gilimans fall, or mabey even both? Who knows it is surely a interesting idea though. What are your thoughts mighty Wolf Lord Rho? Wether way great video as always. Cant wait to see what you put up next.
If Guilliman has taken the moment to try and talk with Lorgar things may have turned out very differently! However, I think Lorgar was so emotional that he wouldn’t have listened at that place and time
Would it have been any better if The Emperor sent The World Eaters or Night Lords? He sent The Ultramarines as a further example of what a Legion should be. True Loyalty. Not a Vain Loyalty.
Well, we sent Vulkan there first, all he did was hug people and laugh uncontrollably. We have since learned to no longer deploy his legions where hugging is possible in lieu of Imperial compliance.
When i read novel and saw/read Lorgar utterly crushed,tears and knees...humiliated... "All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth." ..... tears... of heresy? Guilliman is in for a road of a REDEMPTION.
It’s weird listening to these videos not at work, they help my day go faster. Also games workshop should get you on commission, amount of books you’ve helped shift hahah
I often wonder if Lorgar Could have got over this event if not for the poor choice of advisors in Erebus and kor Phaeron. Shame they weren’t present when the razing started, could’ve saved a lot of trouble
Just finished Devastation of Baal and wow what a book! You got me into these 40k books and I can’t thank you enough! So glad I found this channel, keep up the amazing work! Thanks!
Found your channel this morning and I love the content. Personally I think we need to see some confrontation with Lorgar but before that happens we need another loyalist primarch to not only balance some of Gullimans doubts but also to add new ones with the many brotherly reunions. Perhaps Leman Russ rescue mission which turns bittersweet as Russ believes at first that Gulliman is trying to usurp the Golden Throne because he wields their fathers sword and he would believe himself worthy of it as the Emporer's executioner that is until they both speak to their father together.
I think the resurrection of Guilliman have allowed the BL writers to really bring him to life in full colour rather than as a distant, inhuman figure. Let's hope that happens with the other returned Primarchs too
I'm so glad papa smurf now has to live with the guilt of provoking the Heresy and eternally mocked by the word bearers because they won. Now the whole imperium is Monarchia.
@David Bury Damn right he is. Only reason his creepy, tattooed ass survived the Heresy is because the Night Haunter robbed Corax of the kill at Istvaan. There's no Konrad to save him from the Lord of Ravens now.
Lorgar is now stuck in his tower pretending to be meditating while too scared to leave lease Corax leaps out and mauls him. Guilliman has concussions facepalming at how only Ultramar is not regressing (but not innovating).
I think Lorgar is childish enough to actually cower in his own domain over the delusion of being hunted by Corax. I also believe Corax thinks lowly enough of himself to actually stalk a slimeball like Lorgar and think it's worth his efforts.
Mate I'm not sure anyone on the interwebs critically examines the Black Library lore as much as you do besides the authors and editors themselves. The fact you (we) can debate the stories herein are testament to the quality and depth of the writing. Keep up the channel!
I hate that GW has shoved the Ultramarines down everyone's throat but I've always been a huge fan of the and Guilliman. As far as being a general, RG is the all-around best. Not necessarily the best warrior but definitely best general.
They and ESPECIALLY papa smurf is seriously overrated. Can’t change my mind. He is too busy wanting Daddy Emperors thrown, but too shitty to be a Chaos champion by ANY of the chaos gods.
@@emperorconstantine1.361 None of these are actually points as to why he's overrated. What exactly is your issue? This reads like a rant with absolutely no substance whatsoever.
Man I was crazy about 40k when I started in 8th, devouring all the lore I can get my hands on, but brother these vids Your doing fantastic the way you digest and dissect the passages, it's easy to hear the love you have for this universe in your voice and it permeates in your reading. You should definitely Be doing Audiobooks for the Black Library if they havent hired you yet their so wrong lol.
Can you touch upon the Plague Wars version of Bobby G reflecting about Monarchia? In 40k he gets more livid about Monarchia when he's talking to the remembrancer calling him "Robu".
Arch had a very pertinent point about how the Emperor handled this entire situation, he humiliated an entire Legion and then just "poof" disappeared again. He forced them to kneel, and didn't use that to make the point of that servitude being exactly what being enslaved to a God would entail. Admittedly it is the author's lack of imagination that leaves these types of plot holes in this tale...
You're missing the last step on that logical journey - The Emperor does not explain himself. Not ever. The message was clear enough, Lorgar should have understood.
@Kyros Droztamyr As much as I dislike Arch's extremist political ideology... And the fact that his personality, is not likely one that I would ever actually enjoy being around, in person... LoL. The fact remains that he DOES know the lore rather well, and he is able to make content on that lore that is really quite enjoyable to listen to... yeah he does stretch out any given topic into literally 20,000 episodes... But it means that there is always more that you can listen to the next day, or week... LoL.
@@abelbabel8484 As true as that all is, and there's just no denying that Lorgar had a deep need to get on his knees to SOMEBODY, ANYBODY at all... LoL. Still, when I wss reading this particular book I do remember being frustrated by certain things the author chose to do... I thought there were more than a few strange aspects to some of it's subplots, that really seemed to just be there as filler more than they were there as anything that was relevant to affecting Lorgar's ultimate fate. And there was just a tad bit of either laziness, or a lack of intellectual imagination, in his writing at times in this novel... I just believe that it could have been much more interesting, because the subject had such vast potential, ya know?
@@abelbabel8484 Did ya not hear the part where I gave my opinions on the missteps that the author had made during the course of writing this particular story man? I had these thoughts on the novel after the first time I had read it, and just to be overly precise regarding the entire mattee; that happened to gave been BEFORE I had heard Arch's recent piece on this particular Lorgar book. So, yeah... I am having a little difficulty figuring out where you have garnered the evidence for this particular misdiagnosis; especially regarding my supposed "lacking independence of mind"(LoL) on this exact subject, my man. I do believe man, that ya just may have simply gotten it objectively wrong, when it comes to this specific commentary ya have laid on me here, heh... LoL... I am just sayin'.
i can imagine the idea of razing monarch would horrify vulcan both for the destruction of such a well crafted city and of how it would wound Lorger. It would be interesting to see Guilieman almost replicate monarchias design in the modern 40k setting as a way to free himself of guilt and as an apology almost. Considering the city would be ideal for the modern imperium which revolves around venerating the emporer and the impeccable memory of the primarches i can see this as being a possibility for the future. It would be interesting to see Lorgars response, be it rage, confusion or almost forgiveness.
With Guilliman back, I would love to see him interact with Lorgar again in the new age, along with the Word Bearer dreadnaught at the heart of the ecclesiarchy.
I dont think RG is one of the Emperor's favorites but he is loyal and the big E does rely on him. My favorite loyal Primarchs in order are: Reboute Guilliman Vulkan Sanguinius Lion El'Jonson Jagatai Khan Lemann Russ
The Emperor sure knows how to make enemies of his allies (pawns). He turned the formerly friendly Perpetuals against him, for the most part, and virtually all of his sons have learned to despise him, after learning what he really was.
In Betrayer, Lorgar seems surprised during his confrontation with Guilliman on Nuceria, stating that only now he saw the hate in his eyes, realizing that he didn't hate him when he razed Monarchia, desperately seeking some answer in Lorgar's face as to why did he brought such wanton destruction to Ultramar. And something about the sorrow of an architect whose masterwork had been brought down. He pittied Angron much to the World-Eater's frustration but he didn't reserve the same for Lorgar. The Word-Bearer may have moved on as he has risen above such unimportant matters, following the greater works of the Chaos gods but I'm pretty sure that Guilliman made a connection between the current state of the Imperium and the works of Lorgar. There can be no reconcilliation between those two even if they knew the truth.
I think there was another reason the 13th was selected. I think the Emperor wanted to give them a warning. The 13th and Bobby G have always been something of braggards concerning how great Ultramar is, and rightfully so. However, I think Big E wanted to make sure they remembered that even great beauty would be destroyed if they didn't follow the rules.
Arch Warhammers lore videos are terrible and it appears he's buying the abridged versions of the books because a lot of the time important information is either wrong or straight up missing.
I actually have this Book, and I do love that this book is referenced in Fulgrim: The Palatine Phoenix, someone saying "If I have to listen to any more "Practical and Theoretical" then I would of gone insane" probs got the quote wrong, would have to re-read the book for the 5th time :P As for this book, it is a great read and really shows Guilliman in a good light and gives us a good look at his Mentality and how he thinks - - Recommend it for everyone! Thanks for making this Video Wold Lord Rho!! now go do Fulgrim The palatine Phoenix, I'll keep asking for it because he is my Favourite Primarch! "Children of the Emperor! Death to his foes!!" Looking forward to the next Video!!
The understanding of why history is so important, at least for species like humans, eldar and tau, is another reason why Roboute is the most brilliant of the primarchs.
I find it quite interesting that Guilliman is arguably the most balanced out of all the Primarchs. He doesn’t necessarily beat any of his brothers in any one area, but neither is he deficient. Yet he is also the only Primarch - that we know of - who had a two parent upbringing. Coincidence?
No coincidence at all. He had the best parenting out of any of them and ended up the most stable because of it. Then you had poor bastards like Konrad that had no one.
Wolf Lord, I think a brilliant followup to this video would be the one scene towards the end of Betrayer where (minor spoilers) Guilliman arrives on Nuceria to confront Lorgar over his shadow crusade across Ultramar. There Lorgar sees hatred for the the first time ever in Guilliman's eyes and he realizes in that moment that the Lord of Ultramar never before hated him or even thought ill of him. Because now he sees it and knows that it looks like. It's a rather moving scene, somewhat reminiscent of Fulgrim's sudden realizations regarding Ferrus Manus at the conclusion of their fateful duel on Istvaan V.
I'm not a fan of Guilliman but seeing a much more human side of him has given me a rather refreshing visceral and spiritual perspective in how they all (maybe with the exception of Angron and Kurze) had the potential in being the pinnacles of what humanity could be. All the more tragic in how things played out in the Horus Heresy and the hopelessness that is the 41st and 42nd millennium.
Good review. The word bearers weren’t the 2nd largest legion until after lodger meets with the Chaos gods and is told his mission in the first heretic novel. He then knew his legion needed to grow to meet the ultramarines.
The emperor has been around since before Jesus, and his understanding of human psychology is so terrible he must have autism. "Don't treat me like a god, just be ruled by me for all eternity because I'm an immortal golden fire sword wielding super human and never question anything I say." Jeez, how did he not see this coming. You'd think his million planet spanning authoritarian empire centered around trusting one guy resorting to religion would be noticed a mile away.
Eventhough Guilliman is a geneticaly engineered giant demi god, he was raised and lived among humans in the old ultamar before he was found and taken back by the emperor. There is no wonder he had those emotions, feeling and regrets, but due to his status he cannot show it freely to everyone but deep inside he is 100% human.
What would've happened if the Emperor sent any of the Primarchs? Hmmmm..... Rogal Dorn- Constructed fortifications instead of demolishing the city Konrad Cruze- Turned it into Gotham City with tons of more blood Vulkan- Either refused or hugged everyone into compliance Leman Russ- ....Honestly would've slapped Lorgar silly while his wolves roasted marshmellows over the ruins of the city. Magus- Probably argue with Lorgar about why he's wrong Angron- Listened to "For whom the Bell Tolls" by Metallica while massacring everyone in the city while smiling Perturabo- Dug a hole while firing a massive cannon Mortarion- Would've farted in Lorgar's general direction Corvus Corax- Shared his dark depressing poems to the populace and slap Lorgar silly Ferrus Manus- YOU ARE WEEEEEEEEEAK LORGAR! Fulgrim- Tell Lorgar how he could've made a more "perfect" city Alpharius- Would've trolled Lorgar and the entire Word Bearers legion into wrecking their own city Jagatai Khan- Fast and the Furious 40k Sanguinius- Out right would've refused Horus- Would've questioned the Emperor first before doing it Lion el Johnson- Out right planned the most efficient way to destroy and kill everyone in the city....then slap Lorgar silly Malcador: So have you decided who you're gonna send to tell Lorgar- Emperor: Send Papa Smurf! Malcador: *Calls Roboute* Hey your dad's got a job for you......No your real dad.
Some time in the 40k future, it would be a slight glimmer in hope in a grimdark universe to have Guilliman meet Lorgar again, just before slaying the daemon-prince, and reveal to his former brother that he did not relish the annihilation of Lorgar's magnificent achievement. And then, maybe, the hatred between the two might end just before Lorgar did.
Dude, i wanted to ask. In Wolfsbane, there was Ragnar, if i remember corectly he died. Was it THE Ragnar? Blackmane? I only remember he died somehow stupidly ... And, i dont care for Ultras but Onemindsyndicate told in QA that Robute is only alive because of his power armor wich keeps him alive, sort of Robocop thing. And he can not fight only make strategies. So what is the deal, is he just primarch head kept alive by machine or does his body need time to heal. How did he fight in that state?
Hail Wolf Lord Rho I find it an odd feeling that twice the Emperor has asked his loyal sons to do this task Gulliman and Russ but Russ's Legion we know were involved in the two unknown Primarchs he was not the choice here as big E hoped The Word Berrors could be redeemed. But I wonder if the Emperor fully knew the personal cost to his sons? How long till the Imperium is thrown into another civil war Between Guilliman and the Church?
I don't understand why RG has a heavy heart about Monarchia. They evacuated the city before they razed it, an all but zero civilian death count. It was one city's destruction on one planet in the vast span of the Imperium.
@@SgtThiel I understand that some people died, but you have to think of the scale of it. The World Eaters would have just killed everyone in the city before destroying it. It's like the invasion of Iraq, kind of. The point wasn't to to kill everyone in the cities. Had they just done what was asked of the CIVILIAN population, the death toll would have been much lower. Monarchia was never about punishing the people, it was punishing the Word Bearers.
The Ultramarines didn't just destory one city, they levelled every human settlement on the planet and Guilliman has a heavy heart about it because of the fact his legion was used as a tool to shame the Word Bearers.
It's ironic that Lorgar realised Guilleimon never hated or slighted him in anyway ( from Betrayer) then tried to justify his actions while razing the five hundred worlds of Ultramar
Wolf!! Make no mistake the Primarchs knew how hypocritical the Emperors “vision” was. It’s what made all Primarchs question their loyalty to the Emperors vision in the first place. Gulliman reflections on Guilt, Gulliman knew the Emperor chose them as the perfect Tool never questioning any of his actions Tool Tool Tool!, but he also had genuine feelings, the same way Fulgrim was conflicted about turning lush planets into compliance and reap them of all their beautiful resources into pollution ridden graveyards to fuel the imperium of man .
I think that once Mortarion starts becoming less of a nuisance, Lorgar will be the biggest one for Guilliman. Especially now that Gulliman is reading the Lectitio Divinitatus. It has a lot of potential growth of character development between the two, where Lorgar could be mocking his old faith, while Guilliman is trying to find a reason for the phenomenon in the imperium because of, in his eye vain proclaimed "faith".
I find it interesting that Russ wasn't used, it seems to me that this is their role. I am also surprised that Lorgar wasn't removed from history by the Wolves either, seems to me that his crime was pretty severe given the message the Emperor was always wanting to be carried across the galaxy.
I'm going through the primary books and row boat isn't one of my favourite guys because he if just what an marine SHOULD be so in feel he lacks uniqueness but it is making me really want to read his book at the same time to learn more about him
Off topic, but has anyone ever done a video ranking how cool the primarchs’ armors are? Lorgar’s would be in my top 5 (except for the books on his pauldrons)
![[UNCUT] "บอสณวัฒน์" แฉ! แหล่งซุกเงินแก๊งบอส ขยันผิดที่ไม่กี่ปีก็เข้าคุก l คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ l17ต.ค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BL56qIfXYZM/mqdefault.jpg)
One of my favorite moments in Betrayer is when Lorgar realizes Guilliman never hated him. As they fight on Nuceria, he realizes Guilliman is hurt by the suffering that has wracked his worlds when he never hated Lorgar. It’s depressing. Lorgar sees this and feels like he needs to explain everything to his brother, but he knows his brother will never forgive him for what has happened to his worlds.
Papa Smurf reflecting on his actions, all the more makes him, more human. Great writing, and portrayal of the humanity of the demigods of humanity
There are humans who will not look within themselves maybe for fear or arrogance. Introspection is not just a human trait but the trait of a decent human.
Guilliman mustave made a massive *Face Palm* when he woke up from cryo to find out that the entire imperium worshiping the emperor
He has and is still facepalming because of that and that his Ultramarines took the Codex Astartes too seriously
I went in stasis for other 5 times for that
He did, prolly thrashed his bedroom for three days.
Guilliman taking a big sip of Depresso In42k* fuck
40k Guilliman in a nutshell: *screaming internally*
Always a good day when Rho uploads a new video
wulf!wulf!
Love Roboute Guilliman as a character as he is now one of my favorite Primarch’s in current 40k lore.
Same. He's probably the most temperate and reasonable.
@@dommydench4693 (laughs in stomp stomp)
Guilliman is vanilla as they come...could think of a few primarchs who are better suited for the 40k universe
@@cwiesner77ify or nobody BETTER suited you mean. El Johnson would start a Civil War. The Khan wouldn't give a fuck. Russ would lead The Entire Imperium straightforward into The Immaterium. Vulcan would breastfeed the Masses and forget all about the Politics and Practicality. Dorn would just hunker down Terra and send Mass Armadas on suicide missions. Corax would be Corax.
So yes. Robute is the BEST Primarch to reorganize and make a sound plan to launch the New Imperium.
@@dommydench4693 interesting that you completely miss why guilliman is the best primarch to fix the current imperium.
Until recently I only had a passing interest in the lore. Your channel has given me a case of Primarchophilia.
When logar cheap shots roboute and roboute doesn't do anything in return , this kinda explains why he doesnt. Roboute took no pleasure in raising monarchia, utterly crushed himself that it had to happen. Perhaps he felt he deserved that shot, understanding his brothers pain, maybe he felt he would've done the same. Great writing. Good upload Rho
Razing*
Ty carry on.
Though he's a Primarch, I can only imagine in those moments alone, Guilliman closing his eyes and seeing the flames leaping as the consumed The Most Holy City, smelling the soot that followed, feeling the the emptiness of what remained...
And then mourning what was lost that day. Building and monuments reduced to ashes. Beliefs and closely held faith turned to dust. A brother stripped to his soul. A brother humiliated. A brother...betrayed. Not just betrayed but devastated by the One entity in the whole galaxy--in the whole Universe--that he would have torn his very arm free if presented the option of "Disappoint your father" or "Nay".
I wonder if Guilliman heard the strident desperation in Logar's voice, almost willing the words spoken to not be true. Did Guilliman feel the deep sort of sadness that he barely had a name to describe at knowing the will opposite of his brother was far greater than anyone had ever known? It was more than just a city. In that moment, their father had ripped his brother's heart from his chest for all to see. And Guilliman had helped. He had not slaughtered the lamb of faith but he had made it ready for the methodical butcher clad in gold.
He may have mourned the Monarchia, what he had to do, what his sons had to do. But I think Guilliman mourned what he lost that day too among the desolation he'd caused: A brother.
Damn, that's accurate. Guilliman must've known, no matter what happened after Monarchia, Lorgar would forever DESPISE him.
All that battles could've won together, the works they could've built together and the laughter and joy they could've shared together. Gone. Even if there was no Horus Heresy, any chance of a bright future between Word Bearers and Ultramarines died with the city their father murdered.
[ultramarines destroy monarchia, city built for the glory of the God emperor]
*the death korps of Krieg hated that*
Guilliman is a tragic primarch.. Think about it.. He supposedly has the "perfect" legion and is a "perfect" primarch.. His legion boasts complete geneseed organ count, disciplined, flexible, adaptable has the largest number of worlds conquered and remade.. He is a statesman, a warrior king, an architect, a mediator for his brothers and a confidante for the emperor.. He acts logically and rationally, doesn't let his emotions get the best of him and is welcome to scrutiny by "lesser" men.. He got a scolding from a grey knight when he was falling into a trap by mortarion during the plague wars.. Not only that but he, despite being a primarch, asked permission from blood angels astartes if he could speak to their chapter master dante.. Imagine what that would have been like if you were right there.. A legendary being so vast not only in his deeds but his physical stature as well humbling himself to be given permission to intrude on a meeting conducted by another chapter.. Take all that into account then think what it would have been like for guilliman to be told "I don't think of you, any of you as my sons."
It must have devastated him even further knowing his treasonous brothers were, at the very least, a little bit right.
@@randomcenturion7264 the emperor for all his grand powers and authority was in the end a man.. He was not a good father overall.. He played favorites especially towards sanguinius, vulkan, rogal and corax..
“Don’t” or “didn’t”?
@@justinokraski3796 don't.. There are passages where he used to but in his current state he lost most of his humanity trying to keep the ruinous powers at bay.. I think he genuinely loved a lot of his sons such as ferrus and vulkan and felt genuine pride in their accomplishments.. But after 10k plus years of being stuck in lifesupport and having to eat thousands of psykers just to keep going for another day that wears on him..
@@lavatun Forgot to include Fulgrim in the list. His definite favorite. E's really lucky Jhagatai wasn't a spiteful moron. Which then makes me think that Cegorach did that on purpose, choosing Jhagatai out of all of them to switch with Fulgrim. Just seems too tactical to be for the lulz.
I think Guilliman's penchant for stoicism and procedure was him hiding his sensitive and complex feelings behind a wall of discipline.
I think he and Lorgar are extremely similar, yet where Lorgar treats his feelings as a strength, Guilliman treats his feelings as something to be contained and controlled
TaxiDriver Carl Interesting 🧐
Even at Calth when the full scale of the treachery is revealed to Guilliman when he speaks to Lorgar (shortly before his apparation becomes a daemon and blows up the bridge of his command ship) Guilliman says that he knew that he talked to his brother (and not a daemon masquerading as him) and that he felt the grief and regret in Lorgar. He also explicitly says "Lorgar does not want this. He knows he is being manipulated". Well we all know that despite that knowledge he utterly hates him later when he goes toe to toe with him in "Betrayer"... which again displays the tragedy of the Heresy. Now Lorgar has a revelation.. Guilliman had never hated him until Calth, and that he all imagined it before. And that only now, after the destruction of Monarchia his bruther truly had started to hate him and simply wanted to see him dead.
I really enjoyed this one! Good job Rho! This makes me think a lot about the last time Guilliman actually tried to communicate with Lorgar, right before the Battle of Calth. In the initial stages of that battle, he urges Lorgar to cease his attack so that the two of them can talk and try and sort things out. It’s only as the Word Bearers’ attack intensifies that he countermands that statement. For those who are curious, the last time we know Guilliman tried to communicate with Lorgar went as follows:
“My brother, hear me. Warriors of the XVIIth Legion, hear me. This violence is against the code of the Legiones Astartes and against the will of our father, the Emperor. In the name of the Five Hundred Worlds of Ultramar, I implore you to cease fire and stand down. Open communication with me. Let us speak. Let us settle this. This action is an error of the most tragic kind. Cease fire. I, Roboute Guilliman, give you my solemn pledge that we will deal with each other frankly and fairly if these hostilities can be suspended. I urge you to respond.”~VOX TRANSMISSION, PRIMARCH ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN - BATTLE OF CALTH, MARK 0.00.01
“Lorgar of Colchis. You may consider the following. One: I entirely withdraw my previous offer of solemn ceasefire. It is cancelled, and will not be made again, to you or to any other of your motherless bastards. Two: you are no longer any brother of mine. I will find you, I will kill you, and I will hurl your toxic corpse into hell's mouth.”
~VOX TRANSMISSION, PRIMARCH ROBOUTE GUILLIMAN - BATTLE OF CALTH, MARK 1.57.42
So here we really can see that Guilliman really did try to reconcile with Lorgar. He endured nearly two hours of his fleet being razed at anchor by the Word Bearers; he endured two hours of Calth’s own weapons being turned on his fleet and the local planetary system; and he endured the loss of hundreds, if not thousands of his own sons for two hours just to try and reconcile with Lorgar. It was all in vain, however, and Guilliman could not abide by it any longer, and the second transmission shows just how truly betrayed and angry he was. But! If y’all want more of that juicy stuff, then go read about the Battle of Calth in its own Horus Heresy book! :D
Then for 2 hours, Guilliman was a fool.
@@fredesca8648 no, he was a man, a man that loved his brothers and wanted to avoid conflict.
"motherless bastards" guilliman flexing his guillimom
Awesome as always.
Please, cover Gage's reaction to the codex Astartes drafts. It is in the same book. It shows how he wrote it for the Ultramarines first, and the rest of the astartes second
I said it before and I'll say it again. Clone Fulgrim should be the next Primarch to return. Not only would it be unexpexted. But it would be a significant shift in Mankind and Necron relation. We all know Trayzon has him in stasis. And like The Phoenix... Arises from The Ashes. Reborn. And the side story of the beef between Gullimen and Fulgrim would be great. Fulgrim atoning for his mistakes and sins, Becoming The Herald of The Emperor. Taking The Emperor's Claw like how Robute took The Emperor Sword from their Father.
Kinda writes itself. Robute as Imperial Lord Commander and Fulgrim as Herald of The Imperium.
Could even come down to Fulgrim literally killing his old self. The Demon he became. Reclaiming himself and being redeemed in every way.
I would actually find it interesting, or even have him come back as a rogue, but loyal Son
He kills his other “self” to become complete and atone finally and take his place besides his father. Would be a epik story to read.
That would be quite interesting. Who would he lead, chapter wise? Would they allow him to create Primaris Emperor’s Children?
@@Sephvion I don't think he would have a chapter. Just a Herald of Gullimen. Not a Warmaster or Lord Regent. Just a personal right hand badass to be sent into battle.
@@Sephvion The Sons of the Phoenix are allready there, a chapter created by Cawl itself, and it would be fitting that he bargains whit Trazin for the "clone".
A version of Fulgrim (as loyal as he turn out to be) would have to hide at first and that would hurt his enormous pride, allso the relationship whit Guilliman... man theres so much awesome potential for the fluff to advance in this direction.
This kind of reminds me of how Russ was torn up after Prospero.
Russ was devastated...it haunting him to the very end
where does it say he was torn up?
@@kevinkaczynski1952 One of the white scars novels, the one where Bjorn shouts over them and says it had to be done stating Magnus was too far gone and that he had no regrets and russ shouldnt either.
@@HammarPwnsYourFace There's multiple books where he expressed regret or frustration. Wolfsbane has a good part during the meeting between the Primarchs and Malcadore.
Helios007 i agree. Wolfsbane is awesome. Really shows why the great wolf is my fav.
Yeah Lorgar received a royal asswhooping from corax the shadowed lord. I think the emperor knew guilliman would do the job efficiently without much emotion. Can you imagine sending Leman of the Russ?
Leman would have refused because his role is the Emperors executioner and he was one of the Primarchs who spoke out against wiping the Word Bearers from Imperial records.
Also the thing you need to remember about Leman Russ is that he hides a noble spirit under the guise of a barbarian king and would probably burst out laughing if Lorgar sucker punched him..
I second the notion. Russ would have outright refused. And told his father 🖕
Rogal Dorn would have also refuse because it's revealed in a scene during the Emperor of Mankind book that he has some very high standards when it comes to morality and honour.
I actually want the Blood Angels or Luna Wolves doing this.
Everyone respected the Angel and Horus, Horus would be able to make up with Lorgar later anyways.
I honestly thought the Guilliman had thought of Lorgar as being ignorant and oblivious. The fact that he didn't really want to make his brother feel the way that he did but knew why he had to burn manarchia really speaks of Guillimans abilities to grasp a situation.
Lorgar found out during his pilgramige inside the Eye of Terror that Guilliman never actually hated and was told he had a choice to make during the upcoming battle of Calth either let Guilliman live or kill Guilliman and risk losing the war due to the unrestrained anger of Ultramar.
Which is why Kor Phaeron was in command of the Calth operation and Lorgar was strangely absent.
This took place in the Aurelian Novella, which is part of the Eye of Terra omnibus.
I really do appreciate your uploads. I enjoy them all, even when I have read the book multiple times.
Great upload, Wolf Lord! Was really nice to witness another human appearance of papa smurf!
Now that Lorgar is mentioned, would be joyful to hear about his last encounter with Corax, actually:)
Sometime I think either the Emperor or the Universe (or GW) loves to torture Guilliman. Everytime he is trying to do something this something turns around punch him in the guts : Monarchia resulted in Calth, Pharos attracted tyrannids, Imperium Secundus bleed out Terra from nessesary resources, Codex Astartes, his own book, that he quite directly said should not be used like a bible, well, you know how “modern” smurfs are, don’t you? And now Dark Imperium... It is like anti-Matt Ward hangover for him.
This is a great reflection on Gilimans character and his feeling on not just The Raising of Monarchia, take his conversation with Mortarian when they remet, he took his brothers betrays personally and it hurt. He wasn't just disappointed with what had become of them, but truly saddened by how far they had fallen from there on self.
I wonder how things could have change had Logar and Giliman spoken after The Emperor and Malcador left and I dont mean fight or yell it out but truly spoken to one another, could it have help held Logar from Heresy or perhaps Perhaps the Opposite to begen Gilimans fall, or mabey even both? Who knows it is surely a interesting idea though.
What are your thoughts mighty Wolf Lord Rho?
Wether way great video as always. Cant wait to see what you put up next.
If Guilliman has taken the moment to try and talk with Lorgar things may have turned out very differently! However, I think Lorgar was so emotional that he wouldn’t have listened at that place and time
Would it have been any better if The Emperor sent The World Eaters or Night Lords? He sent The Ultramarines as a further example of what a Legion should be. True Loyalty. Not a Vain Loyalty.
Well, we sent Vulkan there first, all he did was hug people and laugh uncontrollably. We have since learned to no longer deploy his legions where hugging is possible in lieu of Imperial compliance.
A Rho video right before work; amazing!
When i read novel and saw/read Lorgar utterly crushed,tears and knees...humiliated...
"All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth."
..... tears... of heresy? Guilliman is in for a road of a REDEMPTION.
It’s weird listening to these videos not at work, they help my day go faster. Also games workshop should get you on commission, amount of books you’ve helped shift hahah
I often wonder if Lorgar Could have got over this event if not for the poor choice of advisors in Erebus and kor Phaeron. Shame they weren’t present when the razing started, could’ve saved a lot of trouble
Just finished Devastation of Baal and wow what a book! You got me into these 40k books and I can’t thank you enough! So glad I found this channel, keep up the amazing work! Thanks!
I loved it when you laughted at Lorgar getting his arse handed to him by Corax lol
As a loyalist, I love Bobby G and love your channel!!
I call him Robert G. Lol so close.
Bobby G it is from now on!
Found your channel this morning and I love the content.
Personally I think we need to see some confrontation with Lorgar but before that happens we need another loyalist primarch to not only balance some of Gullimans doubts but also to add new ones with the many brotherly reunions.
Perhaps Leman Russ rescue mission which turns bittersweet as Russ believes at first that Gulliman is trying to usurp the Golden Throne because he wields their fathers sword and he would believe himself worthy of it as the Emporer's executioner that is until they both speak to their father together.
I don't know where this channel has been all my life, but you've earned my subscription my man! Keep it up
I think the resurrection of Guilliman have allowed the BL writers to really bring him to life in full colour rather than as a distant, inhuman figure. Let's hope that happens with the other returned Primarchs too
Yeah just from what I have read of Guilliman in 40k and heard he has become my favorite out of all of them
I'm so glad papa smurf now has to live with the guilt of provoking the Heresy and eternally mocked by the word bearers because they won.
Now the whole imperium is Monarchia.
That is an epic troll. Burns a city to make a point only for his entire empire to mirror said city.
@David Bury Damn right he is. Only reason his creepy, tattooed ass survived the Heresy is because the Night Haunter robbed Corax of the kill at Istvaan. There's no Konrad to save him from the Lord of Ravens now.
Yeah but now at a time time where the imperium everything he wanted hes stuck worshiping the reality tumours
Lorgar is now stuck in his tower pretending to be meditating while too scared to leave lease Corax leaps out and mauls him.
Guilliman has concussions facepalming at how only Ultramar is not regressing (but not innovating).
I think Lorgar is childish enough to actually cower in his own domain over the delusion of being hunted by Corax. I also believe Corax thinks lowly enough of himself to actually stalk a slimeball like Lorgar and think it's worth his efforts.
Mate I'm not sure anyone on the interwebs critically examines the Black Library lore as much as you do besides the authors and editors themselves. The fact you (we) can debate the stories herein are testament to the quality and depth of the writing. Keep up the channel!
Always a great to hear the voice of the wolf Lord again and again to read the holy tomes of His will
I hate that GW has shoved the Ultramarines down everyone's throat but I've always been a huge fan of the and Guilliman. As far as being a general, RG is the all-around best. Not necessarily the best warrior but definitely best general.
They and ESPECIALLY papa smurf is seriously overrated.
Can’t change my mind. He is too busy wanting Daddy Emperors thrown, but too shitty to be a Chaos champion by ANY of the chaos gods.
@@emperorconstantine1.361 None of these are actually points as to why he's overrated. What exactly is your issue? This reads like a rant with absolutely no substance whatsoever.
Shows how little Lorgar knew about his brother...really how little any of the Primarchs really knew each other.
i'm truly enjoying the lore of WH 40k thanks to your videos. please keep it up!
I've watched all your videos this week(for the 3rd time). More please.
Man I was crazy about 40k when I started in 8th, devouring all the lore I can get my hands on, but brother these vids
Your doing fantastic the way you digest and dissect the passages, it's easy to hear the love you have for this universe in your voice and it permeates in your reading. You should definitely Be doing Audiobooks for the Black Library if they havent hired you yet their so wrong lol.
Great vid!!! Love the interactions between the Primarchs and there sons.
Can you touch upon the Plague Wars version of Bobby G reflecting about Monarchia? In 40k he gets more livid about Monarchia when he's talking to the remembrancer calling him "Robu".
In the Post-Horus Heresy WH40k, the Imperium adopts religion centered on the worship of the God Emperor of Mankind.
Word Bearers: *Amused*
And its all led by the last loyal Word Bearer
Notification squad, we in this loyalist and heretics alike!
If you must strike a dangerous foe, your blow must be so severe that you need never fear of his vengeance.
The Lion and Konrad would disagree
@@emerson21962 I think they of all people would agree.
Well "We march for Macragge..." - Dead marines who didn't expect "vengeance"
Arch had a very pertinent point about how the Emperor handled this entire situation, he humiliated an entire Legion and then just "poof" disappeared again.
He forced them to kneel, and didn't use that to make the point of that servitude being exactly what being enslaved to a God would entail.
Admittedly it is the author's lack of imagination that leaves these types of plot holes in this tale...
You're missing the last step on that logical journey - The Emperor does not explain himself. Not ever. The message was clear enough, Lorgar should have understood.
@Kyros Droztamyr As much as I dislike Arch's extremist political ideology... And the fact that his personality, is not likely one that I would ever actually enjoy being around, in person... LoL.
The fact remains that he DOES know the lore rather well, and he is able to make content on that lore that is really quite enjoyable to listen to... yeah he does stretch out any given topic into literally 20,000 episodes... But it means that there is always more that you can listen to the next day, or week... LoL.
@@abelbabel8484 As true as that all is, and there's just no denying that Lorgar had a deep need to get on his knees to SOMEBODY, ANYBODY at all... LoL.
Still, when I wss reading this particular book I do remember being frustrated by certain things the author chose to do... I thought there were more than a few strange aspects to some of it's subplots, that really seemed to just be there as filler more than they were there as anything that was relevant to affecting Lorgar's ultimate fate.
And there was just a tad bit of either laziness, or a lack of intellectual imagination, in his writing at times in this novel... I just believe that it could have been much more interesting, because the subject had such vast potential, ya know?
@@jeremyw.norwood1453 You just took Arch's opinion for the Golden truth and stopped thinking for yourself.
@@abelbabel8484
Did ya not hear the part where I gave my opinions on the missteps that the author had made during the course of writing this particular story man?
I had these thoughts on the novel after the first time I had read it, and just to be overly precise regarding the entire mattee; that happened to gave been BEFORE I had heard Arch's recent piece on this particular Lorgar book.
So, yeah... I am having a little difficulty figuring out where you have garnered the evidence for this particular misdiagnosis; especially regarding my supposed "lacking independence of mind"(LoL) on this exact subject, my man.
I do believe man, that ya just may have simply gotten it objectively wrong, when it comes to this specific commentary ya have laid on me here, heh... LoL... I am just sayin'.
i can imagine the idea of razing monarch would horrify vulcan both for the destruction of such a well crafted city and of how it would wound Lorger. It would be interesting to see Guilieman almost replicate monarchias design in the modern 40k setting as a way to free himself of guilt and as an apology almost. Considering the city would be ideal for the modern imperium which revolves around venerating the emporer and the impeccable memory of the primarches i can see this as being a possibility for the future. It would be interesting to see Lorgars response, be it rage, confusion or almost forgiveness.
With Guilliman back, I would love to see him interact with Lorgar again in the new age, along with the Word Bearer dreadnaught at the heart of the ecclesiarchy.
Alpharius remains active and loyal!
Not going to lie your videos have portrayed the 30/40k universe in new light for me the Ecclesiarchy approves of this...
I dont think RG is one of the Emperor's favorites but he is loyal and the big E does rely on him.
My favorite loyal Primarchs in order are:
Reboute Guilliman
Vulkan
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Jagatai Khan
Lemann Russ
Poor Ferrus
The music worked really well
Interesting to think how different things COULD have been had Angron been asked to do the job instead.
I've always like the Dauntless Few Primarchs. This is what we need more of. We need more of this for Dorn, the Lion and the Khan now.
The Emperor sure knows how to make enemies of his allies (pawns). He turned the formerly friendly Perpetuals against him, for the most part, and virtually all of his sons have learned to despise him, after learning what he really was.
In Betrayer, Lorgar seems surprised during his confrontation with Guilliman on Nuceria, stating that only now he saw the hate in his eyes, realizing that he didn't hate him when he razed Monarchia, desperately seeking some answer in Lorgar's face as to why did he brought such wanton destruction to Ultramar. And something about the sorrow of an architect whose masterwork had been brought down. He pittied Angron much to the World-Eater's frustration but he didn't reserve the same for Lorgar. The Word-Bearer may have moved on as he has risen above such unimportant matters, following the greater works of the Chaos gods but I'm pretty sure that Guilliman made a connection between the current state of the Imperium and the works of Lorgar. There can be no reconcilliation between those two even if they knew the truth.
Another very interesting video. Good work.
I think there was another reason the 13th was selected. I think the Emperor wanted to give them a warning. The 13th and Bobby G have always been something of braggards concerning how great Ultramar is, and rightfully so. However, I think Big E wanted to make sure they remembered that even great beauty would be destroyed if they didn't follow the rules.
You know you gotta do the burning of prospero. 😉
Arch and you coving the same era, lovely
Arch Warhammers lore videos are terrible and it appears he's buying the abridged versions of the books because a lot of the time important information is either wrong or straight up missing.
@@chaptermastermarneuscalgar6926 I like him if you don't that's ok
Could you do the pilgrimig of Lorgar into the Warp
Vulkan would have apologised for each building demolished.
For sure. Hell, he felt so bad for burning Calderis that he vowed to protect it as he would his Homeworld, even against The Beast.
We need a rematch between Lorgar vs Gullimen or Corvus Corax to come back as a badass
I actually have this Book, and I do love that this book is referenced in Fulgrim: The Palatine Phoenix, someone saying "If I have to listen to any more "Practical and Theoretical" then I would of gone insane" probs got the quote wrong, would have to re-read the book for the 5th time :P
As for this book, it is a great read and really shows Guilliman in a good light and gives us a good look at his Mentality and how he thinks - - Recommend it for everyone!
Thanks for making this Video Wold Lord Rho!! now go do Fulgrim The palatine Phoenix, I'll keep asking for it because he is my Favourite Primarch!
"Children of the Emperor! Death to his foes!!"
Looking forward to the next Video!!
The understanding of why history is so important, at least for species like humans, eldar and tau, is another reason why Roboute is the most brilliant of the primarchs.
I find it quite interesting that Guilliman is arguably the most balanced out of all the Primarchs. He doesn’t necessarily beat any of his brothers in any one area, but neither is he deficient.
Yet he is also the only Primarch - that we know of - who had a two parent upbringing. Coincidence?
No coincidence at all. He had the best parenting out of any of them and ended up the most stable because of it.
Then you had poor bastards like Konrad that had no one.
Wolf Lord, I think a brilliant followup to this video would be the one scene towards the end of Betrayer where (minor spoilers) Guilliman arrives on Nuceria to confront Lorgar over his shadow crusade across Ultramar. There Lorgar sees hatred for the the first time ever in Guilliman's eyes and he realizes in that moment that the Lord of Ultramar never before hated him or even thought ill of him. Because now he sees it and knows that it looks like. It's a rather moving scene, somewhat reminiscent of Fulgrim's sudden realizations regarding Ferrus Manus at the conclusion of their fateful duel on Istvaan V.
I'm not a fan of Guilliman but seeing a much more human side of him has given me a rather refreshing visceral and spiritual perspective in how they all (maybe with the exception of Angron and Kurze) had the potential in being the pinnacles of what humanity could be. All the more tragic in how things played out in the Horus Heresy and the hopelessness that is the 41st and 42nd millennium.
Good review. The word bearers weren’t the 2nd largest legion until after lodger meets with the Chaos gods and is told his mission in the first heretic novel. He then knew his legion needed to grow to meet the ultramarines.
The emperor has been around since before Jesus, and his understanding of human psychology is so terrible he must have autism.
"Don't treat me like a god, just be ruled by me for all eternity because I'm an immortal golden fire sword wielding super human and never question anything I say."
Jeez, how did he not see this coming.
You'd think his million planet spanning authoritarian empire centered around trusting one guy resorting to religion would be noticed a mile away.
I’m a relative newbie but I’ve seen others say being worshipped and ascending to godhood was always the plan. Truth?
@@tersan5043 We don't know. Only the Emperor, and possibly Malcador but he's dead, know what the original endgame plan was
@@ProjectEkerTest33 If the Emperor was succesful in building the human webway then the choas gods would most probably be returned into an inert state.
Good episode.
Guilliman: ...That planet sure was flammable...
Damn that music is good
Bro I love your work keep it up
Eventhough Guilliman is a geneticaly engineered giant demi god, he was raised and lived among humans in the old ultamar before he was found and taken back by the emperor. There is no wonder he had those emotions, feeling and regrets, but due to his status he cannot show it freely to everyone but deep inside he is 100% human.
Wait? 10 secs ago a new video? I am first?
I just bought this yesterday!
Maybe it should've been Vulcan, he probably would hug him afterwards.
What would've happened if the Emperor sent any of the Primarchs? Hmmmm.....
Rogal Dorn- Constructed fortifications instead of demolishing the city
Konrad Cruze- Turned it into Gotham City with tons of more blood
Vulkan- Either refused or hugged everyone into compliance
Leman Russ- ....Honestly would've slapped Lorgar silly while his wolves roasted marshmellows over the ruins of the city.
Magus- Probably argue with Lorgar about why he's wrong
Angron- Listened to "For whom the Bell Tolls" by Metallica while massacring everyone in the city while smiling
Perturabo- Dug a hole while firing a massive cannon
Mortarion- Would've farted in Lorgar's general direction
Corvus Corax- Shared his dark depressing poems to the populace and slap Lorgar silly
Ferrus Manus- YOU ARE WEEEEEEEEEAK LORGAR!
Fulgrim- Tell Lorgar how he could've made a more "perfect" city
Alpharius- Would've trolled Lorgar and the entire Word Bearers legion into wrecking their own city
Jagatai Khan- Fast and the Furious 40k
Sanguinius- Out right would've refused
Horus- Would've questioned the Emperor first before doing it
Lion el Johnson- Out right planned the most efficient way to destroy and kill everyone in the city....then slap Lorgar silly
Malcador: So have you decided who you're gonna send to tell Lorgar-
Emperor: Send Papa Smurf!
Malcador: *Calls Roboute* Hey your dad's got a job for you......No your real dad.
This is fucking GOLD, mate XD Alpharius and Mortarion were the best.
Request: The World Eater's disciplining that Captain by making him fight to 3rd blood 40+ times in a row
Some time in the 40k future, it would be a slight glimmer in hope in a grimdark universe to have Guilliman meet Lorgar again, just before slaying the daemon-prince, and reveal to his former brother that he did not relish the annihilation of Lorgar's magnificent achievement. And then, maybe, the hatred between the two might end just before Lorgar did.
“ I fucked up” -rouboute guilliman
Dude, i wanted to ask. In Wolfsbane, there was Ragnar, if i remember corectly he died. Was it THE Ragnar? Blackmane? I only remember he died somehow stupidly ... And, i dont care for Ultras but Onemindsyndicate told in QA that Robute is only alive because of his power armor wich keeps him alive, sort of Robocop thing. And he can not fight only make strategies. So what is the deal, is he just primarch head kept alive by machine or does his body need time to heal. How did he fight in that state?
Hey I don't think you covered this, but in Corax's Horus heresy Primarch book him and the Smurf himself take about the Primarchs.
I thought that at that time, the Word Bearers were not as large. They hastened recruiting after the Eye Of Terror incursion.
Me and my boi I nuke miniatures with listen tor his stuff while we build. Please keep up the videos they’re a blast to listen to
Hail Wolf Lord Rho I find it an odd feeling that twice the Emperor has asked his loyal sons to do this task Gulliman and Russ but Russ's Legion we know were involved in the two unknown Primarchs he was not the choice here as big E hoped The Word Berrors could be redeemed. But I wonder if the Emperor fully knew the personal cost to his sons? How long till the Imperium is thrown into another civil war Between Guilliman and the Church?
Soundest 40k TH-camr going
I'm new to 40K lore and still have not figured out why so many people dislike Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines.
I don't understand why RG has a heavy heart about Monarchia. They evacuated the city before they razed it, an all but zero civilian death count. It was one city's destruction on one planet in the vast span of the Imperium.
what? have you read the first heretic? people resisted the evacuation and fought the smurfs. a lot of people died
@@SgtThiel I understand that some people died, but you have to think of the scale of it. The World Eaters would have just killed everyone in the city before destroying it. It's like the invasion of Iraq, kind of. The point wasn't to to kill everyone in the cities. Had they just done what was asked of the CIVILIAN population, the death toll would have been much lower. Monarchia was never about punishing the people, it was punishing the Word Bearers.
@@SgtThiel And yes, I have read the book.
The Ultramarines didn't just destory one city, they levelled every human settlement on the planet and Guilliman has a heavy heart about it because of the fact his legion was used as a tool to shame the Word Bearers.
@@michaelhowell2326 yes, I agree with you why it had to be the ultramarines. yet, it was not "all but zero" death count.
It's ironic that Lorgar realised Guilleimon never hated or slighted him in anyway ( from Betrayer) then tried to justify his actions while razing the five hundred worlds of Ultramar
You should do more stuff on the traitors
Wolf!! Make no mistake the Primarchs knew how hypocritical the Emperors “vision” was. It’s what made all Primarchs question their loyalty to the Emperors vision in the first place. Gulliman reflections on Guilt, Gulliman knew the Emperor chose them as the perfect Tool never questioning any of his actions Tool Tool Tool!, but he also had genuine feelings, the same way Fulgrim was conflicted about turning lush planets into compliance and reap them of all their beautiful resources into pollution ridden graveyards to fuel the imperium of man .
I think that once Mortarion starts becoming less of a nuisance, Lorgar will be the biggest one for Guilliman. Especially now that Gulliman is reading the Lectitio Divinitatus. It has a lot of potential growth of character development between the two, where Lorgar could be mocking his old faith, while Guilliman is trying to find a reason for the phenomenon in the imperium because of, in his eye vain proclaimed "faith".
I find it interesting that Russ wasn't used, it seems to me that this is their role. I am also surprised that Lorgar wasn't removed from history by the Wolves either, seems to me that his crime was pretty severe given the message the Emperor was always wanting to be carried across the galaxy.
I'm going through the primary books and row boat isn't one of my favourite guys because he if just what an marine SHOULD be so in feel he lacks uniqueness but it is making me really want to read his book at the same time to learn more about him
Off topic, but has anyone ever done a video ranking how cool the primarchs’ armors are? Lorgar’s would be in my top 5 (except for the books on his pauldrons)
Lorgar should have not be punished! like rogal dorn said to alpharius: you didn't had to kill them!