If Gulliman found and saved Agron after the butcher nail then Angron is doomed anyway. But being calm and calculated, Gulliman would convince Angron to put himself into stasis in the hope that one day they'll found the way to remove the butcher nail. Imagine waking up after 10000 years seeing both Ultramar and Nuceria standing strong but they still haven't figured out how to treat Agron from the nail. It'd weigh heavily on Gulliman. Or even better, if Angron was the one to return from stasis, freed from the nail but seeing his brother whom he couldn't repay the favour sitting on the stasis and hearing it was Fulgrim, the pampered child of the emperor who not only slayed his own best friend Ferrus but also put Gulliman on stasis. Imagine an enraged Agron but now cold and calculated being freed from the nail seeking the cure and vengeance for his brother.
Dude both of those sound badass one of them kinda gives kratos vibes like angron has come out of stasis cured but after finding out what happened hes gone full doom slayer on fulgrims legion and later chaos as a whole.
Ohh I like that second idea. It kinda reminds me of The Stormlight Archive. Where the brother with political acumen is put out of commission leaving only the warrior to try and take his place.
If Guilliman had found Nuceria before the Emperor found him, he'd have found the world being beset from within by a slave revolt. When seeing the Eaters of Cities had been so successful, he'd have went to find their leader, and when the two primarchs would've laid eyes on one another,they'd recognize they were brothers. Guilliman would've sat down with Angron to hear his story, and after hearing about the horror of the butcher's nails, he'd have joined his brother in fighting against the leaders of the world, leading Nuceria to being incorporated into Ultramar. Guilliman would devote every available minute to finding a way to safely remove the butcher's nails from his brother, and failing that, he'd also try to find a way to lessen their effect and harm so that Angron wouldn't spend untold hours screaming in agony. He may find a way to disable them so that though Angron may still have the nails in his brain, he could at least think clearly.
@ChaosWhite caul being specifically assigned to this task would make sense to me, if such a thing had occurred then I could also see caul working what he learned about the nails into the primaris which would be interesting. Just flip a switch and they get really really good at chainaxing dudes.
You know, I just had a thought: I remember Arch describing the nails as being irritating, and heightening aggression whenever someone was calm, and relieving someone whenever they were royally pissed off. Maybe Guilliman could find a way to reprogram the nails, to lightly calm down Angron whenever he is stressed? And just straight up turning off roid rage mode, unless Angron needs it...
@ChaosWhite True, but then again what would you rather have, no tool, or a remorseless battering ram tool that can be applied to certain siege deadlocks, but is broken cos it should have been a different tool entirely? Angron still brought many worlds to compliance, or prevented worlds from rebelling (as the moment they heard the XIIth were on route, they'd turn 180 degrees on whatever they were planning.
Horrible comparison Agrippa was always subservient to Octavian. Better comparison would have been Julius Caesar and Marc Anthony if we are going with this time frame.
@@tarn1135 marc Antony is too hedonistic, I was going with the absolute loyalty and trust Augustus and Agrippa had with each other to split governing and war between them
Then the unremembered empire book would be very different. Gulliman walked in saw Konrad eviscerated body :"Dude I thought we have agreed to keep him alive as prisoner? " Angron:"He talked shit about our Abuelas" Gulliman :"fair point "
Really depends on if Angron can kill him. Though he did lose in the end he nearly defeated the lion. One of if not the greatest duelist of the Primarchs.
@@Prophetofthe8thLegion I would argue that after the butcher's nails anger on is one of maybe three at most primarks who have the best chance of defeating Konrad in a one-on-one and I'm talking a proper one-on-one. Those three I would argue are sanguinius because of his foresight and his skill with the blade, Angron because with the nails he is nearly unpredictable and extremely brutal and doesn't care how many times he gets cut, and probably Russ much for the same reason but the wolf is another level entirely
@@Its-Just-Zip I don’t deny that eh is one of the best fighters of the Primarchs. I mean that is literally all he does. But still I think it would be alot harder for him to kill Konrad then even for the lion to do so.
@@Prophetofthe8thLegion I agree. Even when Angron can beat Konrad on a head on fight, he'd just try to escape. However, the only time when Konrad got close to Euten was when she was guarded by 10 elite space wolves and he was wounded because of that. With Angron around they might be enough to kill or at least incapacitate Konrad.
To give my thoughts: For me, Guilliman and his empire are a representation of the Roman golden age of rule and prosperity. Angron's home planet, meanwhile, would represent the dark, ugly side of Roman life. Slavery. Bloody gladiatorial games.
Indeed. The best one I know of other than the 'Dornian Heresy' one is the Roboutian Heresy one. Ironically in this AU it's Guilliman who turned archtraitor.
@@seekingabsolution1907 The major reason why he turned was because of the fate of his homeworld and his brothers and sisters in chains. If Guiliman found him, that likely his brothers and sisters in bonds. The ones he loved wouldn't have died. He would have had an anchor to hold hope. He was also an Empath, he could feel the emotions of others and take burdens unto himself. Which he did, so when every one of his brothers and sisters in arms died he felt it all...
@@rockyroads8802 actually when he received the nails he lost his Primarch mojo, his Empath stuff, his transhuman dread, and his sons couldn’t even feel his Primarch awing presence. That’s why half of the legion had to be slaughtered instead of a third like the other chapters during Istavan Virus Bomb Purge.
Dude that sounds like a crazy alternate Heresy timeline. Imagine the famous painting of Horus and the Emperor standing over Sanguinius... but its traitor Guilliman and the Emperor standing over loyal Angron... does this make Angron more tragic?
Guilliman: "Brother, I have come for you!" Angron: "MY PLACE IS HERE, 'BROTHER'!! FIGHTING AND DYING ALONGSIDE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS!!!" Guilliman: "Alright, then I'll bring me and my legion down here to fight alongside you!" Angron:"THAT...! Well, actually that'd be actually decent of you to do... Uhh, YEAH, let's do that!!"
Guilliman: "Brother, I have come for you!" Angron: "MY PLACE IS HERE, 'BROTHER'!! FIGHTING AND DYING ALONGSIDE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS!!!" Guilliman: "Do you see those stars in the sky? Each is a drop pod. The High Riders are now surrounded by my Ultramarines, trapped in here with you and yours. May I fight alongside you brother?" Angron: "You brought your own sword, so yes. I lead." Guilliman: "Of course Brother, it is your hunt."
@@Sorain1 Guilliman: Now, brother, can YOU keep up with me...? [Charges] Angron: [brief moment of shock, grins] NO! YOU KEEP UP WITH ME!!! RAAAGGGHH!!!
I would genuinely be surprised if Guilliman wouldn’t have just glassed the planet, after picking up Angron and his friends of course. The man might have tried to show the high riders a better way over the slave issue. Negotiations would have been off the table after the nail situation and glassing after what they did to a primarch.
@@Historyfrek4everseeing what that planet had done to one of his brothers (who btw he loved them all deeply, as is proved when Lion see first hand his Primarch chill room he has built for peace times for all his brothers). He would have seen the nails, the slavory and as calculated as that....that planet would have been hopelessly fckd! Guilliman is wrath incarnate when he snaps lol. And seeing one of his brothers butchered as Angron was...oh man those high riders would have been whiped from existence lol.
Guilliman: Now brother I know you and your legion do not like overly complex plans. So for your part of this worlds liberation you are land here and go here in straight line." Angron: Alright.
Honestly I vet the meme of tactical genius, but Rowboat is a logistical genius, not a tactical or strategic genius a compared to his brothers. Which is important, as this is how wars are actually won.
@@krullachief669 I'd say he's a logistical and strategic genius, but not a tactical one. He's known to be a better commander than many of his brothers in the big picture but is also known to be worse in gigantic hail mary battles. Naturally, he doesn't get into many of those for that explicit reason.
G: "Damn, my stratagem was supposed to be flawless. To have discounted so many orcs on the front line. If only we could break their front line." A: "Bet."
Great video. Honestly angrons fate was sealed the moment he got the nails, but having his rebel friends with him while on crusade might make him less bitter. If robute got him before the nails then that changes everything. Angron was supposed to be the empath of the primarchs, the one who made sure everyone got along. I feel like this would honestly be good enough premise for a part 2 video
I imagine that Roboute would assist Angron in his last stand. Or, honour his brothers request and wait till Angron and his rebels lost. Let's be honest, Angron would have survived the fight, healed up by his brother.
I think Angron's fate was sealed when the Emps kidnapped him and let his fellow slaves die; even with the nails, Angron was deeply loyal to those worthy; he was willing to die with those who followed him into rebellion after all, and seethed at missing his chance to. If the Emperor backed Angron up, offered his own help, you would have had a newly compliant world in the Imperium, led by a grateful primarch, who, after learning that there are thousands of other worlds like his, where people are held as thralls to tyrants and monsters, would be eager to continue the crusade. The nails may change aspects of his personality, but Angron wouldn't be the only Primarch who was messed up
@@SH-qs7ee The nails made him falling to Khorne pretty much a certainty, just by the very nature of the state of mind and actions that it forces, Primarchs with better odds still fell, I don't think Angron ever had a shot after it, his best end after the butchers nails would have been to have died an honourable and heroic death in battle, perhaps in the very early stages of the heresy before being fully corrupted.
Angron: “If you are truly my brother, then help me liberate my brothers and sisters from th-“ Guiliman: “… It’s already done” Angron: “What?…” Guiliman: “Yeah, our apothecaries even manage to remove the butcher’s nails from your head” Angron: “…damn”
Angron: Who are you and why did you teleport me away from my last stand?! Guilliman: To replace you and your troops in the field with a Terminator Phalanx, my brother. Angron: =O
I'm seeing Tarasha Euten as Roboute brings home a broken mistreated version of himself and just being the best mother ever all over again. Imagine what that would be like. Mother to two Primarchs? One is the lord of a 500 world sub Empire, the other rehabilitated from being a professional killer before the implantation of the butcher's nails. You couldn't threaten this woman ever.
Now I’m imagining a version of the Horus Heresy where it’s much like the canon version, only the millisecond he hears that Konrad visited Tarasha to mess with her is the moment that Angron goes rouge from Horus’s side. Suddenly World Eaters are ignoring the commands of the Warmaster with some companies even outright attacking their old allies as they scour planets for Night Lords and where Konrad Curze may be… Angron may not be fully with the Emperor like the rest of the loyal sons, but it’d certainly be a massive blow to the traitor legions while making it clear you do *not* mess with his and Guilliman’s mom.
I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while. The utter tragedy that Angron was so close to one of his brothers, one who could help him regardless of whether he had the Butcher's Nails or not is very saddening. Had Guilliman found Angron he also could have helped tear down the ruling class that turned Angron and his friends into Gladiators, Guilliman himself hates greedy politicians and massive wealth disparity as he knew of it on his own planet before his father's rule. And his father was killed by greedy politicians too. So no doubt Guilliman would have felt a kinship with Angron in that sense. Yeah, had Guilliman found Angron I think they would have had one of the greatest bonds between primarch's, more than enough to keep Angron from falling to Chaos.
I picture his tragic passing being one of defying Khorne, perhaps at the Drop Site Massacre. His last words something like "I am no one's slave!" before he finally dies, having cut a hole in the encirclement through which many more than in the original timeline of the loyalists escaped.
A follow up, I will say I just can't see Angron, turning on Robute if the latter saved him and his fellow slaves, especially if prior to the former gaining the Butcher's Nails. I just can't see Angron turning his back on Robute after such a thing, as that is the defining trait of his hatred of the Imperium, and the Emperor.
I can't see Angron remaining loyal, no matter what. The Nails drive him mad. They're functionally Khorne's direct touch, except as some kind of arcane machine, and none of the champions have ever turned aside from their god's command. At best Angron would be a third party, killing Imperials and Chaos alike, which is functionally what he already is.
@@ZeroNumerous the point you're glossing over, is angron would be far more loyal, if someone came to not only his aid, but rescued his gladiatorial brothers in arms from certain defeat, with say, an army of ultramarines, including air support instead of just teleporting only angron to a spaceship and leaving his army to die alone. I can see him putting loyalty to Robitussin for that.
You are right. Angron only became who we know him for after he lost his brothers and sisters. He was still niceish to those he cared about,hell,he howled for 3 days straight when he was forced to kill his adopted dad. If Guilliman helped him,and he would,because Guilliman is not only pragmatic but also a kind individual,angron would be fiercely loyal to his brother rather than the emperor or the imperium.
@@sokratikas I think he'd still be loyal to the empire too... but mostly because his brother is. He sees Roboute's devotion to the cause and though he himself feels the emperor is just a despot by another name... he'd rather the despot he knows with the modicum freedom of the Ultramar system and Nuceria... than disappoint his brother.
I actually wrote a fanfic of this idea. Angron still received the nails. however, during his final stand, it was guilleman who had arrived. unlike the emperor, guilleman charged down to the world of Nuceria. Charging head first to save his brother. The soldiers of Ultramar came down, destroying the opposing army. Angron and Guilleman worked together. fighting side by side. guilleman using his intellect to guide angron and his forces. Defeating the tyrants of Nuceria once and for all. This battle created a unbreakable bond between the two brothers. Angron thankful for Guilleman coming to help him. And guilleman gaining a sense of Respect to Angron, due to how willing angron was, to die alongside his fellow slaves. Guilleman and angron became twin rulers of the sector. Guilleman was the strategist, but angron the general. Guileeman would plan out the battles, while angron fought them. The two working closely with one another. Angron would help train the soldiers physically, but guilleman taught them tactically. The world eaters and Ultramarines would be a united legion overall. this bond with angron also made Guilleman more empathetic. Understanding angron was the way he was due to how he was raised as a slave. So, he was empathetic towards lorgar later on. Refusing to burn down Monarchia and instead speaking with lorgar. Each debating their views and gaining a respectful relationship to one another. Guilleman not agreeing with the whole religious thing, but also saw how it produced more loyal worlds. and lorgar respecting guillimans intellect. Guilleman also spent time trying to find a way to heal angron from the butchers nails. Eventually discorvering a way to not remove them, but dampen the effects. the need for battle was there, but it didn't stop other emotions and feelings. Angron regained is empath powers and would eventually heal over time.
@@daspaceasians sadly, I never got to post it. also, it was on my old Laptop that got broken (memory was completely lost) and cause I was using word. well, it was lost forever. currently making a remake but that might be a while. Sorry
You know, with a Loyalist Angron and Guilliman working together, they could likely stop the Ruinstorm before it happens, which would give the defenders on Terra more men and resources to work with, which may lead to the Heresy ending in a stronger win for the Loyalists.
@@logandelaharpe6362 And that's the shit part of it all, especially if Angron is found post nails. Would likely lead to a scene of Guilliman holding his dying brother, unable to do anything, as the two legions look on in sorrow.
Wow… I wonder if Angron ever found out how close Ultramar was the Nucaria and if he ever held that against Robby G or if Guillimen found this out after the heresy and added another thing he holds on his shoulders and add to the ultra depression
This boils down to warp travel insanity. It is possible to arrive faster at a world on the other side of the galaxy, than a world, literally just a few lightyears away. Time and space have little or no meaning in the warp, thus realspace distance relationships are meaningless. Just because you know something is close by in realspace, doesn't mean it is close by warp travel.
He did; the Shadow Crusade against Ultramar was orchestrated by the Word Bearers to bring about the Ruinstorm and ascend Angron to Daemonhood, and one of the actions during that was the sacking of Nuceria
I think you largely also overlook the third possibility: Ultramar subjugating Nuceria. I can certainly see Guilliman seeing the acts inflicted on the slaves as hideously barbaric, then take up arms alongside the slaves to liberate them from their sadistic overlords and bring the world of Nuceria into compliance with the laws and expectations of the realm of Ultramar, and later the Imperium. Do not underestimate one brother's anger at seeing an other so mistreated, nor the innate bond and draw many of the primarchs felt inexplicably toward each other. I think if this were to happen, even if the butchers nails could not be removed, a strange sense of gratitude and loyalty would linger within both the now-former slaves and even Angron himself, which could turn them into later becoming enraged at the traitors and embarking on a bloodletting for vengeance that would make even the Sons of Dorn give a moment's pause... A much stronger case might be made for this being the ideal post-nails timeline, since perhaps Angron and the Warhounds might remain loyal in the long term, with their hatred imposed on tyrants and traitors rather than loyal bothers and saviors. Those are just my thoughts given what I know...
With what we now know of what Agron would have been like without the Butcher's Nails, G-man and Angron would have been an amazing team. G-Man: I am the smarts and logic. Angron: I am the empathy and muscle.
@@LordCommander-ui2fw I have developed concept of Astartes Corps under one of Thousand Sons videos of Oculus Imperia. While pair you say would be formidable, pairing e.g. Dron and Khan would be their match.
Ok here is a pretty tragic but epic resolve to the twos cannon fight, During the fight Angrin is suddenly hit with a sense of confusion, why is he attacking his closest brother? Why attack the one who saved him and his gladiator comrades (I believe Horses would of used Angrons aggression to manipulate him) This allows Gillamen to defete Angron and in this moment Angron looks upon Gillman and begs him to remove his butchers nails, Gillman response by reminding Angron that would kill him and Angron with out missing a beat reply’s “I know… but I am also not living… Brother I am already half dead, will you please end my pain? Will you not end my suffering?” Gilliman fulters, his ussal calm deminer cracks, he knows his his mind this is the only option and it’s a logical one, but he can’t bare the thought of actually killing him. Angron once more looks to his brother and comferts him. “Gilliman, I only ask becouse I know you know just as well as I do this is the best option, please brother… please end my pain” The battlefield where the brothers stand is suddenly covered by a blanket of dust, then arfter it passes… only one brother is still standing.
I don't think it'd have come to that. I believe Gulliman would try to get help from Vulkan and Ferrus to at least mitigate the effect of the nail and when he realized that he couldn't remove it he'd put Angron into stasis in the hope of finding a cure while building up Nuceria to be as prosperous as Ultramar. But imagine if it was Angron who returned freed from the nail thanks to the combined resources of Ultramar and Nuceria, seeing a wounded Gulliman in stasis and learned about the Horus heresy and Fulgrim treachery. Instead of Gulliman meeting Mortarion I can see an encounter between Fulgrim and Angron. Angron being an experienced fighter possessing immense strength, a gifted empath that can read emotions and being blessed with the emperor sword just like Gulliman in this timeline would overwhelmingly beat Fulgrim. Fulgrim: "Impossible! You are just a mindless beast living under the shadow of your brother! I am the champion of Slaneesh, greatest master swordman, I am perfection incarnated!" Agron remove his helmet showing his operation scar :"No Fulgrim, you are not perfection, you are a fool. Unlike you I took nothing for granted. While my body was chained, in my mind I was always free. I used every calm moments I had back then to learn about people around me and I was grateful for Gulliman who gave me that opportunity. What about you? You squandered your talent in the pointless search for pleasure, you turned against your brother and subjected the very same people who saved and raised you to damnation. Guess Khan was right, you treat everything like a game that's why you'll always lose to people who are less gifted than you. Fulgrim:"So what? Without Gulliman you are nothing and I killed him." Angron:" No, you didn't even finish the job, Gulliman's men stopped you through sheer will and loyalty, something you will never understand. And if you were that great why couldn't you do a thing to Nuceria and Ultramar? It is because you are distracted or you are too weak against the men and women who build and defend the realm, the same baseline human that you used to look down upon? And you better hope he won't return or your little achievement will be undone. You think your little insult can shake me, the one who struggled every moments against the cursed nail? You know nothing of struggle you spoiled brat that's why you'll forever be imprisoned in mediocrity. My mind was clouded but now it's clearer than ever unlike you who's still mindlessly seeking pleasure in vain. Perhaps the title emperor's children does fit you, you have always been childish and never grow up and while you was right, I used to live under Gulliman's shadow but now I grew out of it. I'll be spreading the vision that united Ultramar and Nuceria: courage, honour and freedom. And I know I am walking a difficult path but hardship is nothing strange to me you'll soon see it and you can't stop me because you are weak in mind. I'll fight for the future of humanity starting by getting rid ourselves of the like of you!" Then Agron swing the emperor's sword, banishing Fulgrim back into the warp once again.
@@historytank5673 I can see Agron becoming something between Gulliman and Corax. Gulliman always said Corax was more matured than his age, even more than him despite being younger due to the harsh environment he grew up in. The warhounds would be similar to the ultramarine due to their primarch absent and adoption of many teaching from Gulliman. But with the return of Agron, they would adopt a new philosophy. Agron wouldn't shy from acknowledging that he lack education but also emphasize that experience is the best teacher because that's how he learned everything. And since each marine must follow his primarch path, each member of the chapter would be required to lead a guardsmen or PDF to victory before becoming a full fledged battlebrother. To pay respect to his human comrades the warhounds will bring an army of their own PDF comprised of chapter serfs to every conflict they take part in, massively increase their fighting power despite their size.
Is it just me or has it been a while since we had a "What if..." Video, regardless I'm glad we got this one especially this very interesting scenario, definitely feel like Robot Girlyman would be more...amiable towards Angron and his fellow gladiators situation and would have helped them out rather quickly and tried to save as many of Angrons men as possible.
@@Specter5053 Alright, lets go through the whole list while we're at it: Ramen Gorillafan Robert Gouly-chan Rancid Gamerman Regurgitated Gimpstan Reff Gland Resolute Grand Slam Rebel Grate Plan Rattle Gallbladderan Jeff
I imagine something similar to the Guts and Griffith dynamic: one is ambitious while the other is a skilled combatant. The encounter would probably be similar to Angron's fate in the Dornian Heresy where Guilliman aids Angron's rebellion and maybe brings Nuceria's ruling class to heel. Angron then learns under Guilliman's tutelage, and THEN they both of them get discovered by the Emperor; along the lines of the Emperor learning of the "Twin Stars of Ultramar: The brilliant Son of Konor and his Executioner, the Red Angel."
What I always find funny is that the Eldar ended up causing the problem they sought to prevent by ganking Angron when he was 'born', since the slavers would not have been able to capture him were it not for the injuries Angron sustained killing the space elves.
Yup. All it would take is some less capable Seer/Exarch going to do the job, or better yet someone (ELDRAD, CALLING ELDRAD ON LINE ONE!) stopping them with a 'more Eldar die that way fool!' and he'd never be captured. Mind you, he could have been adopted by a High Rider and still become a horrible person who turned to Khorne, but it wouldn't be the Eldar's fault this time!
Angron has the imperium in his crosshairs and nothing else. Who's to say that by intervening the Eldar did not prevent the rising of a primarch who would've been more hostile to the craftworlds?
I can't help imagining a meeting between Guilliman and the slave masters where Guilliman just sits down and tells them something along the lines of "it seems my brother is in rebellion against you. So I'll give you a choice, surender and I'll make sure you aren't horribly murdered by my brother, or keep fighting and my sizable army of powerful super soldiers will join the war on my brother's side insuring your defeat and if necessary, eradication. your choice"
@@logandelaharpe6362Girllyman: "Father, send for the 8th legion." *"Why, my son?"* "I don't know....and yet I have a hunch. I'll be needing them soon."
@@michelveilleux123 "You can't kill us, you'll need us to govern this system." "Let me give you a lesson on how deterrence works. It requires both sides having close to equal capacity to harm each other to the point both will hesitate to start a confrontation. And you are not as important to me as you thought." *Nightlords walk in* And since you just threatened me with such an impotent threat, you just proved to me that you are neither competent or trustworthy enough to keep. I have borrowed some of my brother's men to remind you of that lesson until you die."
@minhducnguyen9276 nightlords' Captain: "I'd say doing this gives me little to no joy. But frankly given the situation Lord Guilliman described, that would be an outright lie."
It's also possible that Guilliman would forgo diplomacy and send his legion to bring down the High-Riders of Nuceria the moment he sees what they have done to his brother. While Guilliman is often seen as "a bland fellow, a competent genius untroubled by the miseries of unbounded humours"[Plague Wars], he can and has lost his temper before. He would already be on the edge due to High-Riders' cultural practices being the anti-thesis of his and his father's(Konor) ideals. By Horus' own account[Vengeful Spirit] and from what we've seen from the stories which he's in, he is a rather sentimental fellow and has a tendency to follow emotion whenever people he cares about are placed in peril[Know No Fear, Unremembered Empire, Pharos]. Seeing his brother horrifically mutilated might just be the straw that broke the camel's back.
Oh 100% 4 words and Angron is saved without his family dying and ones I could see Roubute shouting as he makes his way to a Stormbird Deploy the 1st company
Can you imagine just how absolutely livid he would be if Gulliman arrived just in time to learn that the rebellion was put down, and the High Riders had kept Angron's body as a trophy? Imagine them presenting the 'symbol of civilization's triumph over barbarism' proudly to Gulliman in person, as a surprise to open negotiations with; Angron's body, preserved and chained down symbolically on a grand plinth.
Chapter Master: But sir, based on our rules, we only need to send one company to take a world. G-Man: It's more than a world. It's my brother down there.
I don't see Angron joining Horus if Guilliman saved him and the slave army. We see friendship can be formed even with those who have the nails so it isn't like they can truly be feeling only rage. With also the Slaves being alive resentment would be lower from Angron to the Warhounds since it wouldn't be loosing the family he wanted to be with, so as long as they don't have a rivalry with each other. Still back to the friendship bit, most likely the two Primarchs relationship would be more like what Lorgar and Angron's was like during/after the attack on the Dark Eldar.
In the brief moments where Angron is free of the nails influence. He seems to not actually like violence that much and values camaraderie and brotherhood above everything else. So he'd likely place his loyalty to whomever helped him first even if he didn't agree with the Emperor.
Why not? Angron was a broken rage machine, slaves or no, whose only purpose was to fight and slay and eventually be slain. Angron was labeled Khorne's from the nail's first bite, and he only had the options of death-by-nails, death-by-combat, or ascension to daemonhood. Horus didn't need to manipulate Angron, so much as blame the Emperor for Angron's broken state. He could have easily done the same with Guilliman. "Is it not our brother who promised to save you? How did that end up? Your fellow warriors were spent across a thousand worlds, and you are still as broken and enslaved as ever. Just serving a new master." Bam. Angron flips. The friendship with Guilliman would only end in tragedy on Guilliman's part, as he either slays Angron himself or watches Angron die.
I'm pretty sure that daddy Emp had the resources to remove the nails or find a way. But he just didn't cared. So, If the Emp would've been the father figure he always mimiced, angron could have survive the nails.
@@kellerwarterartjom9949 The existence of a loyalist Angron would have driven a wedge in the relationship between many primarchs and the emperor even when they'd stay loyalist regardless.
Mind a suggestion for a fantheory? "Could Perturabo have removed Angron's nails?" I mean, Perturabo's entire gimmick is that he should know how everything works...
Perturabo: "Brother, I have modified the nails." Angron: "Explain." Perturabo: "You can now turn them on, and off, at will. Or you will once we set the trigger. Currently it's set to a phrase you would never say accidentally." Angron: "Tell me." Perturabo: "The High Riders were right." Angron: "That'll do."
I always figured Dorn and Guilloman would have found each other in space. The the Emperor would have found them crusading building and combining their empires as one. I feel like those two would have got along great not necessarily best of friends but best of work colleagues.
In the lore Dorn and Guilliman are actually really close, and they're both very similar to each other. Horus himself sought counsel from them when he was appointed Warmaster, describing it like how a sibling looks for support from their older brothers. Their only falling out was the Codex argument though neither were in good mental states at the time, and they conclusively buried the hatchet when Guilliman saved Dorn during the Iron Cage. Rogal was ranked first both amongst Guilliman's Dauntless Few and in a list of his friends, and the Smurf himself gifted him the three sisters of spite. There's also a funny moment in Saturnine where Dorn has a moment of doubt and jokingly says that Guilliman must never hear of this, and in Master of Mankind he vocally wishes Roboute was there with him when arguing with Custodes.
Guilliman being a diplomat: use lance fire to vaporize the slaver army and teleports to Angron's location: ... rip and tear, brother ? .... Angron: RIP AND TEAAAARR!!!!! Epic bro moment
Best Case Scenario is Guilliman finds Angron before the Emperor does and before he gets the nails implanted. Probably while he's still expanding the Ultramar Empire. At that point Angron doesn't have the psychopathic bent that let him fall so easily, nor the trauma induced by the Emperor. Instead he has a stalwart, logical and peaceful brother that he can bounce his aggressive tendencies off of for a clear mind prior to each battle. And in a sense, he might be the first to notice something off about Horus because his mind isn't half eaten by Butchers Nails. Thus armed with foreknowledge, I can see Guilliman approaching his brother Horus before his appointment to War Master and asking him what's wrong, with Horus taking the opportunity to dump all his frustrations and suspicions about their father on Guilliman who has the right mindset to understand, and Guilliman logically pointing out that the source of these revalations cannot be trusted even if they are correct. But if they are correct then something must be done about their father who kept such secrets from them. From here I can see all the Primarchs getting together, including yes, Alpharius (This is a lie), to discuss the issues they see with the Imperium from a myriad of perspectives. Thusly the Primarchs would come to a conclusion BY THEMSELVES with no input from the Emperor of a plan of action, possibly with Alpharius (This is a lie) offering several clandestine solutions to problems that would otherwise tear the Empire apart if approached by any other Primarch. And thus at the appointed hour would Brother be set against Brother, the forces of the Imperium split seemingly in half by "Traitors" within the ranks, select Legions rushing to Terra for the inevitable final conflict of the Imperial Rebellion... and Dorn himself, flanked by Custodes, point blank asking... nay, demanding answers from his father about the truth of things. The Imperium of Man may well remember things quite differently in this future, with Emperor Horus leading the Imperium of Man into the 40th Millennium not with the overwhelming ignorance and technophobia of the Emperor's rule, but instead a foreknowledge of the Warp and its dangers, of Psychers trained and augmented to resist the temptations of the Warp. A Grey Knight LEGION specifically to destroy Daemons and keep worlds safe, and the Imperium's Inquisition fully committed to rooting out the one who truly did fall to the temptations of the Chaos Gods... Lorgar, as well as other threats to the Imperium. There would be two Legions completely gone from the Imperium of Mankind, that of Magnus the Red, whose forces would've eventually succumbed to the temptations of the warp despite Magnus' best efforts to prevent it, going down the exact same route they went after the Burning of Prospero and creating the Rubric Marines, and Lorgar's Holy Crusaders, who now serve as the Chaos Marines of the setting and bolster their ranks through adherants to the Faithful of The Great Game's newest faction... The Chaos God calling Himself The True Emperor of Man. A wrathful scheming individual whose dread gaze falls upon the forces of the Imperium that He once led... and its destruction, for if He could not have it, nobody would. The other Chaos Gods content to occasionally work with Him in various Dark Crusades but otherwise working against both each other and the Chaos God of Pride. Now imagine THAT Theoreticus Future.
@@logandelaharpe6362eh; he let the mechanicum exist, which led to technophobia even before the heresy really kicked off. That said, very different imperium anyway.
Having read Angron’s Primarch novel, before he had the Butchers nails implanted he was a completely different person. He was calm and calculated and genuinely cared for his fellow humans. I honestly think if Angron was found before the butchers nails were implanted, that he would remain loyal to the imperium. A lot is made of Angron not conquering his home world but reading what happened to him as he arrived as a child on Nuceria, I believe this would of been the same fate for any of the Primarch’s. The Novel also eludes to Angron having some kind of healing ability if I remember correctly. The Angron novel is still my favourite Primarch book. I Definitely recommend to read it if you haven’t already.
After the death of yarrick, I can see the orcs getting very involved in taking on Angron. I personally hope that Ghazghkull Thraka goes toe to toe with Angron, it would make for an amazing addition to the 40k lore.
I can't help but thinking of the phrase: "I am my brother's keeper" when pondering theoretical interactions between Guilliman and Angron. Two demigods so diametrically opposed to each other it is almost biblical. One thinking of nothing else but hatred and the other of his brother's salvation. Great What IF.
Honestly this would make an interesting duality representing the two sides of Rome, the engineering, civil, culture represented by Guilliman. And the militaristic, gladiatorial, savage side represented by Angron.
I think there is still one part that could be a opening to him falling, even if he lacked the Nails. We know that Angron, in his more lucid moments, resented the fact that he was send to in essence 'enslave' planets and systems that were no threat to the Imperium and simply wanted to be left alone. I honestly cannot imagine anything worse for a liberated slave, especially Angron who pre-Nails was a very empathic person, to be forced to do.
Whose to say he wouldn't attempt a more diploamtic approach if he still retained his mind? Even if he had the Butcher's Nails, the fact that he'd be crusading alongisde Guiliman means that overwhelming force wouldn't always be his first answer. Perhaps Guiliman could convince him of the way they do things, speaking of a grand dream of Re-unification
@@nooneatall1830 That is a fair point but at the end of the day it would depend entirely on if the Emperor decides to allow Guiliman and Angron to work closely together. After all each legion was seemingly designed for a specific purpose or form of warfare and, lets be honest here, the Warhounds were designed to be nothing more then a blunt weapon. Angron might have tried more diplomacy but the Emperor would probably continuously pushed him to just crush them as a message and to move on as quickly as possible. We shouldn't forget that there were worlds that were doing just fine, that didn't need to be 'saved', where science and reason thrived. Who would look at the Imperium and say "no thank you, we don't want trouble but we don't want to be part of this." even when a primarch was trying to convince them. The Emperor would not have cared a bit about how Angron felt about the situation and just ordered the subjugation of those worlds.
If he was saved before getting the Butcher's nails I could imagine Angron forming a strong bond with Vulkan. It would be hilarious if Angron of all Primarchs looked at Salamanders' way of war and told his brother "Aren't the Flamers a bit much, brother?"
Angron without the Butcher's Nail: *thinks up a joke* Angron: Hey, Roboute! Roboute: Yes, Angron? Angron: Did you know. Roboute: Know what? Angron: You can't have "diplomat" without "dip." Roboute: *chuckles* Angron: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I like to hope that Guilliman could keep him just calm enough to be to control himself. Then instead of trying to remove the nails Vulcan might find a way to turn the volume on them down and allow him to meet his legion without it becoming a nightmare. Angron was an empath capable of feeling other people's emotions and easing their pain and his legion would have inherited some of that. Perhaps being around his sons without turning them into monsters would have acted to work against the nails and bring him some peace with the more of the around him the more calm he felt until he could finally be what he was meant to be, a healer. Instead of the World breakers they could have been a medical force, perhaps called the Emperors Hand, with white and gold armor their arrival would have been seen as a salvation wherever they went.
Ironically it was Angron’s empathy and compassion that lead to him getting the nails. It was years after he was captured that he was implanted, he stayed a slave because of his bond and empathy with his fellow slaves. Basically every other brother save maybe Vulkan would have chosen to escape.
There is also the option that GUilliman joins ANgron in his rebellion conquering Nuceria and allowing Angron to take his revenge. And also gaining access to the Butcher Nail's STC, and the other advanced technology such as Silver Vines (amorphous metal), and anti-grav boots.
"I've made up my mind." "Angron-" "HEAR ME! ...Hear me...please..." "...Very well brother." "I am dying Guilliman. That fact, cannot be escaped, even with Ultramar's greatest medical minds working together: Remove them, I die. Keep them in, I die, slowly. I refuse those warriors now placed under me to even damn themselves to go through the hell I have with this." "You've heard of the rumors." "A raging beserker, I am brother. Not an idiot. They wish to become...close to me, and think that the Butcher's Nails is the best way to understand me. I will not allow this! Never again Guilliman! Never again..." "You know there will be push back with this decision." "It's for the best. The War Hounds will thrive with your boys in blue Roboute. In time...I know they'll understand." -A recorded conversation rediscovered by an Ultra Marine's Captain.
@@michelveilleux123 After that, the War Hounds, while never fully understood their gene-father, they honoured his promise to follow the example of the Ultramarines, heredity the unbreakable brotherhood their Primarchs held. The War hounds follow the codex's edicts and form some chapters during the second founding: - The War Hounds - The Storm Wardens - The Emperor's Shadows - The Fire Fists - The Brazen Minotaurs
I find it odd that the assumption is that Guilliman wouldn't just side with Angron's rebellion... I think he has shown in various books that he would realize the best way to bind Angron to the Imperium with loyalty would be to aid his Rebellion, even if only by giving the slaves weapons to even the odds.
Even if Guilliman was unable to reach Angron and his gladiator comrades before the entire rebellion thing, and even if their nails would make (at least most of) them unable to be integrated into the XII legion, Guilliman could easily offer to rehabilitate them and offer them a peaceful life on some agri-world in wider Ultramar where they can just do their own thing and develop their own society free from any tyranny. Guilliman could also use his diplomatic and military might to enact a takeover of Nuceria and reform the government and society to get rid of all of its more undesirable practices, meaning that all of the slaves like that if Angron's comrades would be freed and given a chance at a better life. What would be considered a run-of-the-mill mundane compliance action for Guilliman would have shown to Angron that Guilliman was honorable and could be trusted, and that the Imperium was a cause that he could get behind v
I'd imagine if Angron and Guilliman fought despite their history, Lorgar trying to join in the fight would result to him being hit together by his now very very angry brothers.
Imagine this Angron still going traitor, but not out of revenge but loss of control and Horus' manipulation. And then Guilliman and Angron meet in battle with the former trying to save latter. And just as lorgar intervene and strike down a wounded Guilliman, Angron snaps out of it for at least a while and cuts down lorgar before the butcher's nail finally kill Angron. The Ultramarines find lorgar in pieces and Guilliman mourning over the deceased Angron.
Judging by how each scenario was talked about, these scenarios happened after Guilliman was found but before Angron was found, correct? What if Guilliman found Angron even earlier than that? Like within that 5 year gab between Guilliman's start of building of Ultramar after taking over of Macragge, but before the Emperor found either of them?
A combined empire of angron wrath and gulliman shrewdness An empire that will be at least double the size from the current lore as nothing makes a goo diplomat looks better than a ferocious warmonger under his leash (in the enemy eyes) Also world eaters will have there own a smaller & less developed empire next to the main one Both chapters will be allies on the battle field later on The rest depends again on is it pre nails or post nails , pre rebellion or post rebellion Pre nails and rebellion : both empires are massive to the point that the emperor may actually recognize their work , angron is loyalist to a fault and traitors get a more devastating defeat , all enemies of humanity will know the name of the world eaters , everything else is lore friendly Post nails pre rebellion : empires are big (yet still at least double lore) , angron employees berserkers much more in his tactics ,angron remain a loyalist but more loyal to gulliman than the emperor, traitors are defeated with more casualties , all across the galaxy the name world eaters terrifies humanity enemies as they're the bogeyman that will destroy the enemy..everything and the nightmarish defenders of the imperium core regions and who ban veneration of the emperor in their ranks , they also favor the mechanicus Post nails post rebellion: lore size empire ,a second small/tiny empire for angron , angron takes a natural stand till gulliman brings him in , he and his chapter serve gulliman instead of the empire , they're the monsters that everyone fears and humanity sees as the lesser of two evils in combat , the only chapter that will not work with the sisters of battle while hunting all Ecclesiastes they find because they oppose emperor veneration to the point the inquisition have a constant feud with them and the admenstratum wishes they die in battle as they hold on to the pre heresy view on science but only to spite the emperor , they also have a complex relation with the mechanicus
A combined empire of angron wrath and gulliman shrewdness An empire that will be at least double the size from the current lore as nothing makes a goo diplomat looks better than a ferocious warmonger under his leash (in the enemy eyes) Also world eaters will have there own a smaller & less developed empire next to the main one Both chapters will be allies on the battle field later on The rest depends again on is it pre nails or post nails , pre rebellion or post rebellion Pre nails and rebellion : both empires are massive to the point that the emperor may actually recognize their work , angron is loyalist to a fault and traitors get a more devastating defeat , all enemies of humanity will know the name of the world eaters , everything else is lore friendly Post nails pre rebellion : empires are big (yet still at least double lore) , angron employees berserkers much more in his tactics ,angron remain a loyalist but more loyal to gulliman than the emperor, traitors are defeated with more casualties , all across the galaxy the name world eaters terrifies humanity enemies as they're the bogeyman that will destroy the enemy..everything and the nightmarish defenders of the imperium core regions and who ban veneration of the emperor in their ranks , they also favor the mechanicus Post nails post rebellion: lore size empire ,a second small/tiny empire for angron , angron takes a natural stand till gulliman brings him in , he and his chapter serve gulliman instead of the empire , they're the monsters that everyone fears and humanity sees as the lesser of two evils in combat , the only chapter that will not work with the sisters of battle while hunting all Ecclesiastes they find because they oppose emperor veneration to the point the inquisition have a constant feud with them and the admenstratum wishes they die in battle as they hold on to the pre heresy view on science but only to spite the emperor , they also have a complex relation with the mechanicus
this young man physiology bears very close resemblance to mine! it was always obvious that I was fabricated rather than being born, but what is really going on here ? theoretical: someone is randomly implanting supermen into planets and letting their talents carry them on into positions of power. practical: this someone is a complete ret*rd ( Erda ).
1:26 This is what I will see the Ultramar Auxilia as now. Not some look alike to the Imperial Guard, but blue Roman soldiers, with las-weapons, chainblades, HMGs, rocket launchers, and tanks. Combined arms seems like a good idea for them too. They're loyal and fight well, why not combine all three?
One thing we forget about when it comes to the Butcher's Nails and the Emperor's diagnosis of them in Master of Mankind, the nails at that time were in Angron's mind for more than a few years, maybe even a few decades when emps looked at them and made his assertations. This is all due to Angron refusing to be with the Emperor for very long and not letting anyone near him (rightfully so) for such a long time. We must take into account the time passing and the how long it actually took for the Imperium itself to get access to the nails and the knowledge about them. However, the story is completely different if Guilliman was the one to find Angron during his rebellion and he were to look at the Nails. At the time, Angron's rebellion lasted under a year according to Slave of Nuceria, which is a vast difference of time between when the Emperor and Guilliman look at the nails. If Guilliman found him and helped him that early, it is entirely possible for one of 3 things to happen: 1. The nails haven't taken over most of his mind and can be mostly taken care of with some lingering after effects. The best option being Angron's physiology works to his benefit and he can recover in due time. 2. The nails have taken over a good chunk but can still be removed. This option leaves Angron with the nails influence but he can live with these lingering effects and one day may lead a somewhat comfortable life. Even with his primarch physiology, he cannot escape them forever and will constantly have the reminder of them, but hope is still possible. 3. The nails are irreversible and there is nothing that can be done. Angron is in a word: FUCKED. But at least he can see that his people are safe and one day, he will meet his end... But it will be on his terms. So really, the effects of the nails can be completely different depending on the time scale. Personally, I believe in Primarch genes and their bodies, as we are hit over the head with how amazing they are all the time, I find it hard to believe if Angron is was found early and there was something to be done about the nails, he could have been salvaged. In a way. There will always be the effects of the nails, but due to how long they are in, will depend on Angron's survivability. That and it is really bullshit that a Primarch's body and mind can be crippled for life and kill him from exposure to an implant for only a yearish after we hear how Guilliman ran into deep space without a helmet and was fine, how Ferrus survived on sand for the first decade of his life, how Leman was perfectly fine in subzero temperatures on fenris since he was a pup and so on.
Imagine a campaign with Angron and Gulliman working together. Guillman would be in command of overall strategy and Angron would lead the assault forces. They could be like Napoleon and Marshall Ney.
I had imagined a scenario (fan fic I had in my head that never was committed to paper) and I did imagine the first moment there being a fight with nuceria being among ultramar but then a kinship from losing their fathers due to the ruling class
"The Highriders forced me to kill my father when I refused their wishes!" "And a traitor close to my family killed mine, in hopes to usurp our ruling family through unlawful sedition. We are not so different, Angron." "How so, Perfect Son?" "Because we've both lost people we loved and cared for. Yes, Father should have helped you and yours on the mountain that day...and it pains me so that our worlds were so close and yet so far." "...I will not apologize." "I do not expect one...brother."
NGL, personally i think Angron is the only Primarch completely and totally justified in his choices. He alone was treated WILDLY different from all the others. As a slave, a pit fighter, not a warrior. The Big E deserves all his enemies.
Angron was literally done dirty on multiple occasions. Being made to kill his adoptive father and then his real father stealing him away from helping his gladiator family. He was a slave there and then made to be a slave under his father.
@@TheDandyMann and then again a slave to Khorne...sad. i've read somewhere Angron was supposed to be like a healer, capable of taking the suffering of others on himself, almost paladin like. Such a shame.
@@TheDandyMann Yeah. Big E has a habit of acting like those he says he's rescuing humanity from. He sprinkles it with altruism, but his refusal to consider that he's not always right is a big problem, like pretending his sons are employees instead...
Unfortunately, I think once Angron was implanted with the Butcher's Nails, he was a lost cause. That being said, Big E transporting Angron like that, despite fully knowing well what situation he was in, was a stupid decision. He couldn't even explain to Angron himself why he did that.
I feel like if he had the butcher's nails it was inevitable that he would fall to Chaos. But if him turning traitor is the result of his poor treatment.
Of course he couldn't explain himself. Angron was an insane rage monster. Imagine you find your son after years of him being lost. He's in some random backwater, surrounded by cops, and he's armed a bunch of monkeys with knives. He plans to die fighting the cops alongside his knife monkeys. Would you let him do it? Of course not. Would you help him? Of course not. You'd save him from himself, explain to the cops that he's insane, and try to help him. That's exactly what the Emperor did. And He failed to help Angron, because He couldn't remove the Nails. So now He's got no other option but let His son wander the galaxy looking for a place to die. The Emperor made the right decision with the info He had. How could He know that there was some arcane device that would ruin even one of His sons?
One theory i heard of why the emperor acted as he did was simple. He did it to keep him alive. Hatred and resentment was the only thing keeping Angron alive.
@@ZeroNumerous I mean those cops where the ones who hammered the nails into his brain because he refused to fight his adopted father figure. The same cops who more less forced people into life or death situations for entertainment or as you would say making the monkeys dance. The emperor made the worst choice in dealing with angron. He had two options. 1. Blow up the planet with everyone including angron on it. Why? Because angron was a lost cause and that world damaged him beyond repair. 2. He could have handled the situation in a million different ways then what he did in canon. He could easily have teleported them all out. He could have healed them up sent them back with angron and gave them a choice of finishing the fight themselves or have the war hounds at their side. All on the condition that angron and his comrades owed him for the save. He owed the high riders nothing and angron was his son. He should have sided with angron 100% considering all that happened on that world. They literally damaged a irreplaceable tool. Angron and his eaters of cities had every reason to revolt because it was either that or continue being the playthings of the high riderers. So yeah the corpse emperor should not be surprised angron went the way he did considering how he treated him worse then dirt.
Another question that could be interesting: What would happen if Rogal Dorn and Perturabo had worked together more often? Would they develop a respect for each other, or would their hatred just deepened?
Considering a contest Perturabo had with a master sculpture on Olympia it would probably deepen the hate. Despite Perturabo being a great character he is immensely petty. During the sculpture contest Perturabo saw the sculpture of his opponent and believed it was actually better than his so he destroyed it.
without the right mediator (or common enemy) it would deepen the hate, but the nature of the project would be important too; say Perty is finally assigned to rebuild an area while Dorn holds the front.
The only mutual enemy that might be harsh enough to bond them would be the Rangdan. Those two work together in that nightmare campaign(s) and I could see them coming out of it, both legions harrowed and maimed, but bonded like no other legions were.
Would be excited to see Angron's special Primarch power in action. Removing psychological pain sounds like a gimmick, but in a grim dark universe , it would of been top tier. His legion would instead emulate their fathers gift of healing. I could see Angron being among the most beloved to his brothers and emperor.
@@terminallove3531 no but Angron having the power would still make the legion a beacon, picture the stable geneseed and his ability in tact. Angron without the nails would have ran the world eaters very differently. he could even have helped to heal anyone who had the butcher's nails implanted.
I could see the War Hounds getting a duel reputation. "Loyal guard dogs." Who like most dogs, can help with emotional issues. and "Dogs of War" on the battlefield. Because as the saying goes, beware the fury of a kind man.
Angron, showed compassion for his human crew aboard the Conqueror. That's with the nails buzzing and biting. He would have been among the greatest men of the age of the imperium.
I would have never thought Ultramar was so close to Nuceria, in my mind it makes little sense that a barbaric world would be so close to the most “perfect” and organized sector in the Imperium
If Guilliman had saved Angron, Angron's next intention would be 'hey so we should rebel against the Imperium since you can clearly govern better than that Emperor bastard'
@@carsoncasmirri3874 Gulliman to outsmart the enemies and Angron to create so much pressure that they are not allowed to think in the first place, ordered chaos.
Someone should write a story for all of the Primarchs either dying or turning to chaos really early or right off the bat. I want to see the emperor realizing his backseat emperor approach just isn’t gonna be possible and creates a plan for humanity where he leads the armies all the way until the end of his plans. I would love to see him finding more ways to improve his power and make unlikely alliances and battling with chaos empowered Primarch (probably several at once because Emps hits like that)
Now we need a what if vid about every Primarch's upbringing was switched like baby Dorn landed on Nuceria, baby Sanguinius landed on Nostramo, baby Jaghatai Khan landed on Fenris, baby Leman Russ landed on Prospero, baby Lion El'Jonson landed on Monarchia, baby Vulkan landed on Barbarus etc
Imagine the things they could accomplish together.. the mind of Guiliman and his diplomatic prowess and the empathetic nature and ability to read others of Angron pre butchers nails… that would have made the Empire of Ultramaar neigh unstoppable in negotiations.
I'd imagine If Guilliman saved Angron and his brothers and sisters from Nuceria, had recived medical attention from the very finest that Macragge had to offer, he'd be very thankful and supportive of him, if not visibly than in private. Angron would be miffed sure, but all in all, he wanted his arena siblings safe in the end. I can see that as time goes on as Angron becoming acquainted with his brothers with roughly the same outcome, Angron would be very cold and distant with them, maybe even out right hating some of them. The Emperor especially so. He'd be rather taken with Corax I think, giving their similar backgrounds, maybe even create a friendship with the Primarch of the Raven Guard. But I can see him and Guilliman being true brothers in this. Always standing beside or even slightly behind him as a show of support. The Diplomat and the Red Warrior, the open hand of friendship and the closed fist of violence, the two legions would I think work rather well together. Guilliman, with the bulk of his forces, and Angron with his Warhounds being more along the lines of shock and awe tactics. Angron would learn from Guilliman to I'm sure. I think after the victory on Ullanor and the crowning of Horus to Warmaster, Angron would be angry with the Emperor's choice, not because he wanted to be Warmaster, but because he believed that Guilliman was more worthy of such a title. Guilliman would try and sooth his brother's anger until the Heresy comes swinging. After that, who knows.
9:08 no, I'm not convinced anything could have kept angron loyal to the imperium during the horus heresy. As a former slave he was ideologically and morally opposed to the imperium itself.
Have we had a video asking what would have happened if Angron was raised instead as the adopted son of one of the Nucerian elites instead of as a gladiator? How would an empath grow up witnessing the cruelties of the bloodiest gladiatorial combat and would this affect his whole battle prowess? With him not growing up with the Butcher's Nails and considering the possibility that he might still decide to help a slave revolt, he could've become a politically minded Primarch like Guillman who uses his charisma and cunning to outwit his opponents. However, he could've also grown up suppressing his empathic abilities and been a more arrogant or cruel looking down upon the average humans as nothing more than slaves like how the current Imperial elite act. I am just spit balling here as I haven't read any Angron books and am using knowledge you have mentioned.
You do bring interesting ideas. The Roboutian Heresy had Angron live life as a farmer of Nuceria, who upon seeing the gladiators, was so overhwlemed by anger, he raised a rebellion that took over the city of Desh'ea(Which canonically is the city where he lived as a gladiator and received the Butcher's Nails.) It would be interesting tho to see Angron raised by the ruling class of Nuceria
I could see him deciding that, as he can feel the same pain from gladiators as from fellow nobility, the nobility is in the wrong. Some fool tells him "Why don't you fight yourself then?" and Angron proceeding to start challenging nobles to matches with the prize of "You stop participating in the games." as his prize. So the nobles start out laughing, get to see a Primarch rip and tear their best pet gladiators apart, (or beat them down and earn their respect for the more reasonable ones) and eventually start playing dirty. So it becomes a case of not a 'rebellion' as much as a High Rider civil war, with Angron's side backed by the Gladiators (and with a Primarch so we know where this is going.) coming out on top. Possibly forced to compromise about abolishing the games, turning them from slave butchery into a professional (blood) sport. A way for anyone brave and capable enough to rise to wealth and fame no matter where they came from. Going for lavish large scale spectacles to make up for the lowered bloodshed maybe. (Think the Roman colliseum doing 'naval battles' and the like.) So by the time Gulliman hears of Nuceria, it's becoming a tourist/entertainment trade hub for the area. (In as much as those exist in 30k.) The Great Gladiator King, Angron putting on the Greatest Games in the Galaxy! Whole armies of gladiators clashing in grand 'field army games' and such.
Me when starting this video: "Where is Remleiz? Is he safe? Is he alright?". An excellent what if video 40k theories! I do believe Guilliman would have handled the Nuceria issue much batter than daddy dearest. It would have been so cool to see Guilliman and Angron developing a close bond. Angron valued loyalty and brotherhood over anything else so, I don't think he would have sided with Horus as easily as in the current timeline even if Angron still resents the Emperor.
Honestly with what we’ve seen of roboute so does he Issue is if the emperor treats Angron poorly or ignores him with roboute being so close it may turn roboute from the imperium
I am very happy to see this video, becasue it was also my question, when I learned that Angron and Guilliman landed not so far away from each other. I am sure of two things if they met like this: Guilliman would for sure help Angron with revolt, second, even if he found him after BN, Angron would not fall to Chaos, becasue if his friends were still alive, his mentall state would be much better
the thing about angron is that his writing is contrived enough to where if literally anything else didnt go the way it did he wouldnt have become a traitor
@@sokratikas Especially the Emperor. We see the Eldar screw up often. to the tune of: Rando Farseer: "But it averts this one attack on my craftworld in 150 years!" Eldrad: "And did you look at what happens 200 years from now?" Rando Farseer: "Oh no!" Eldrad: "This. This is why I can't stand jumped up children playing Seer."
Here's another possibility... what if Guilleman had found Angron before he himself had been reunited with the Emperor and his own Ultramarine Legion? Guilleman already had his own small, space faring Empire of a few dozen or so worlds. Ultramar was a thing long before the Emperor found him.
The possibility exists that Guiliman at some point would have had Cawl look into the butcher's nails, if there's anyone other then the emperor that might have been able to do something about them it would be him.
Guilliman would teleport Angron to only inform him of an alliance to free his world of barbaric acts and explaining he is his brother then proceed to launch an Ultramar strike force with him and Angron back to the battlefield flanking and obliterating their foes.
Just tossing in a few thoughts, this is an intriguing video. 1. I don't think there's much signs that show many of the Nucerian Slaves bearing the Butcher's Nails themselves, as from the few characters we do see involved in the revolt, none of them seem to bear any of the signs of suffering from the pain engines, i.e. facial ticks, snarls, twitching. I think the majority were probably regular humans, as it seems The Nails were a special form of punishment, as shown in Slave of Nuceria. 2. I don't think Angron would allow for the replication of The Nails if he's on good terms with his legion and The Imperium at large. Again, this plays more into Slave of Nuceria, and what we see of Angron's thoughts, but I got the impression that Angron knew what pain the Nails would cause, and pushed them onto his sons as a form of ruining them to spite The Emperor. If he isn't as outright hostile towards The Golden Tyrant and The Imperium at large, I think even if he didn't care for The World Eaters, he wouldn't be motivated to make them suffer under the effects of The Pain Engines. Doubly so, if he has surviving gladiators from Nuceria, who've seen the horrors those machines represent, and would likely not want to see anything from the High Riders ever become so prolific again. Great video otherwise! Makes me wonder at a world where I could call the Avenging Bean Counter brother, but, I suppose that's the crux of any good fantasy.
One addendum: butcher nails could be removed from humans and space marines with tolerate margin of danger. Angrons primarch biology make the removal impossible (or rather more and more impossible with passing time). In fact right from Nuceria removing of butcher nails from Angron was possible, but Emperor preferred living primarch with nails (maybe in hope of him overcoming them) than possibly death one due to procedure.
This would turn Lorgar's assault on Ultramar into the greatest WWE match in history. Announcer: "Oh no, Erebus and his armored choir boys are brutalizing innocent civilians, who can save them!?" *Jimmy Hendrix's national anthem starts playing* "Oh, by the Emperor, its Kharn the Mighty with the steel chair!"
If RG had found Angron pre nails, man that bromance would've been something straight out of a romance novel. RG would've outright saved Angron from slavery, take the dudes angron was close with. Upon reuniting with his Legion, Angron would've been the best leader. Taking away the pain of his sons and brothers alike. He may have even rivalled Sanguinius and Horus in popularity amongst the Primarchs. Post nails, well its difficult to say because it could've been either of 2 ways. Angron says he wants to die as per canon, and he's gonna go down swinging. 1. RG and Emps send him and the world eaters to the bloodiest conflicts to satiate his nails and the desire to die, stays loyal because they accede to his request. Ultimately resulting in Angron finally going down during the Heresy, either fighting lorgar in the shadow crusade, or even replacing Sanguinius during the eternity gate fight and finally going down after kicking the shit out of the traitors and their demons (kingsman church scene style) from all the wounds he sustains. 2. He goes traitor as per canon because he feels like the eternal banzai charge he was ordered to go on wasnt enough to finally end his life.
I don't think Guilliman would have gotten to Angron before the Nails, but I also wonder how different things could have been. The Emperor didn't intervene at Nuceria; He simply seemed accepting that He had found another Primarch, and after reclaiming him, was content to let Nuceria roll how it would. He seemed to have already made arrangements with that government, and saw little reason to change things up, when He didn't have to, to get what He wanted. Guilliman, on the other hand, might have more objected to the planet operating as it did, were it to become part of his empire, so I feel he might've been more willing to help Angron, and his people, fight their oppressors, and fix things. I don't know how important a change that would really have been, with the deleterious effects of the Nails, but I still feel it might've been better. More than that, though, Guilliman wasn't playing tbe same game as the Emperor, and didn't know as much. At least certain sources would say the Emperor did what He did with Angron intentionally; He knew some Primarchs would rebel, there would be the Heresy, and He only had limited influence on which of His pawns would stay loyal. If Angron was already living on borrowed time, and treating him like crap would push him to be one of the traitors, which could keep a "better" Primarch from falling in his place, that was fine with the Master of Mankind. Guilliman, however, wasn't aware of all this 5th dimensional stuff, Chaos, and the Great Game the "gods" were all playing, so he might've tried harder to save Angron, his warriors, and his world. He mightve tried harder to extract the Nails, and let Angron die better, were it necessary, since he wasn't an old maid dud card, like he was in the Emperor's game with Chaos. Since Guilliman was in the dark on so much of these events, and not as detached, and calculating, as his Father, I think things could have been very different, even if Angron had ended up actually dying, or something.
The Chaos gods never intended to kill the Primarchs, the Primarchs are Chaos beings to the Chaos gods, they always intended and assumed they would get them all back.
No, the Primarchs are destilled psychic energy humanity itself, the Chaos gods laid claim to it, the Emperor tricked them and took back what belonged to mankind in first place.
I think it would also be reasonable to think that Guilliman would help his brother in his rebellion and crush the slave masters. This would definitely solidify a relationship between the two.
Fun thought this might actually save two primarchs because there’s no way that Guilliman wouldn’t try and find a way to remove the nails and knowing he wouldn’t be able to do that on his own he’d probably ask some of his brothers for help. Now obviously the first thought is vulkan as the most skilled artificer in the imperium (possibly even including the emperor) but even with him they would need to figure out exactly how the nails were adapting and interacting with the primarch brain and for that I imagine no other person than perturabo. Now imagine what that would do for Perty two of his brothers coming to him and asking him personally for technical help to save another one of his brothers I imagine that right there would be the recognition needed to keep him from betraying the imperium .he’d probably still have issues with the emperor but he’d probably be more hesitant to turn on his brothers
Angron never stopped being a slave. First to the Nucerian nobles as a gladiator, then to the emperor as a general but no less a slave, and finally, he is a slave to Khorne. Ironically, if he had sided with the loyalists during the heresy, he would have taken his destiny into his own hands and should he stick around or return during the indomitus crusade, he would have had a great deal of power over the rest of the imperium as he's a fucking primarch, as do guilliman and the lion do now. If Angron had played the long game, he could have become one of the masters and no longer a slave
I’ve said it 100 times, but Guilliman’s best trait is not his empire building abilities, governance, trade, or any other ability he has. He is the only Primarch we know of that had a mother and father as role models and guardians. The vast majority of the primarchs are jacked up psychologically in one way or the other, and even the “well-adjusted” primarchs (like the Lion or Dorn) are so because their personalities are so reserved. Only Guilliman got the benefit of a mother and father.
If Gulliman found and saved Agron after the butcher nail then Angron is doomed anyway. But being calm and calculated, Gulliman would convince Angron to put himself into stasis in the hope that one day they'll found the way to remove the butcher nail. Imagine waking up after 10000 years seeing both Ultramar and Nuceria standing strong but they still haven't figured out how to treat Agron from the nail. It'd weigh heavily on Gulliman. Or even better, if Angron was the one to return from stasis, freed from the nail but seeing his brother whom he couldn't repay the favour sitting on the stasis and hearing it was Fulgrim, the pampered child of the emperor who not only slayed his own best friend Ferrus but also put Gulliman on stasis. Imagine an enraged Agron but now cold and calculated being freed from the nail seeking the cure and vengeance for his brother.
Oooh I really like that first idea with Guilliman's guilt and the like.
Who's to say Crawl after 10000 years may not of found a way to remove the butcher's nails?
I could feel my brain going “yes yes YES! I want this story” with every line I read of this comment
Dude both of those sound badass one of them kinda gives kratos vibes like angron has come out of stasis cured but after finding out what happened hes gone full doom slayer on fulgrims legion and later chaos as a whole.
Ohh I like that second idea. It kinda reminds me of The Stormlight Archive. Where the brother with political acumen is put out of commission leaving only the warrior to try and take his place.
If Guilliman had found Nuceria before the Emperor found him, he'd have found the world being beset from within by a slave revolt. When seeing the Eaters of Cities had been so successful, he'd have went to find their leader, and when the two primarchs would've laid eyes on one another,they'd recognize they were brothers. Guilliman would've sat down with Angron to hear his story, and after hearing about the horror of the butcher's nails, he'd have joined his brother in fighting against the leaders of the world, leading Nuceria to being incorporated into Ultramar.
Guilliman would devote every available minute to finding a way to safely remove the butcher's nails from his brother, and failing that, he'd also try to find a way to lessen their effect and harm so that Angron wouldn't spend untold hours screaming in agony. He may find a way to disable them so that though Angron may still have the nails in his brain, he could at least think clearly.
Exactly, because Guiliman is just that kind of bro.
@ChaosWhite caul being specifically assigned to this task would make sense to me, if such a thing had occurred then I could also see caul working what he learned about the nails into the primaris which would be interesting. Just flip a switch and they get really really good at chainaxing dudes.
You know, I just had a thought: I remember Arch describing the nails as being irritating, and heightening aggression whenever someone was calm, and relieving someone whenever they were royally pissed off. Maybe Guilliman could find a way to reprogram the nails, to lightly calm down Angron whenever he is stressed? And just straight up turning off roid rage mode, unless Angron needs it...
I think the emperor lied and didn't want the nails removed. He is a massive pos like that.
@ChaosWhite True, but then again what would you rather have, no tool, or a remorseless battering ram tool that can be applied to certain siege deadlocks, but is broken cos it should have been a different tool entirely? Angron still brought many worlds to compliance, or prevented worlds from rebelling (as the moment they heard the XIIth were on route, they'd turn 180 degrees on whatever they were planning.
Robute and Angron having a bromance like Augustus Caeser and Marcus Agrippa, the fanfiction I never knew I needed.
Octavius wasn't a soldier, bad comparison imo
Their subsequent falling out would be epic
Horrible comparison Agrippa was always subservient to Octavian. Better comparison would have been Julius Caesar and Marc Anthony if we are going with this time frame.
Julius Ceaser and Brutus
Gulliman: et tu Angron?
@@tarn1135 marc Antony is too hedonistic, I was going with the absolute loyalty and trust Augustus and Agrippa had with each other to split governing and war between them
Then the unremembered empire book would be very different.
Gulliman walked in saw Konrad eviscerated body :"Dude I thought we have agreed to keep him alive as prisoner? "
Angron:"He talked shit about our Abuelas"
Gulliman :"fair point "
Theoretical: We were supposed to keep Konrad alive. Practical: He was a dick.
Really depends on if Angron can kill him. Though he did lose in the end he nearly defeated the lion. One of if not the greatest duelist of the Primarchs.
@@Prophetofthe8thLegion I would argue that after the butcher's nails anger on is one of maybe three at most primarks who have the best chance of defeating Konrad in a one-on-one and I'm talking a proper one-on-one.
Those three I would argue are sanguinius because of his foresight and his skill with the blade, Angron because with the nails he is nearly unpredictable and extremely brutal and doesn't care how many times he gets cut, and probably Russ much for the same reason but the wolf is another level entirely
@@Its-Just-Zip I don’t deny that eh is one of the best fighters of the Primarchs. I mean that is literally all he does. But still I think it would be alot harder for him to kill Konrad then even for the lion to do so.
@@Prophetofthe8thLegion I agree. Even when Angron can beat Konrad on a head on fight, he'd just try to escape. However, the only time when Konrad got close to Euten was when she was guarded by 10 elite space wolves and he was wounded because of that. With Angron around they might be enough to kill or at least incapacitate Konrad.
To give my thoughts:
For me, Guilliman and his empire are a representation of the Roman golden age of rule and prosperity.
Angron's home planet, meanwhile, would represent the dark, ugly side of Roman life.
Slavery. Bloody gladiatorial games.
That actually makes so much sense and I love it
Conquest, cruelty and greed. The unromanticised side of the Roman Empire.
Conquest and war are romanticized
With Rome
Great point/view.
A very unexpected “what if” scenario, but one of the better ones I’ve seen. Anything with loyalist Angron/World Eaters absolutely fascinates me.
I dont think there could ever be a loyalist world eaters. There's butchers nails traitor world eaters or sans butchers nails traitor world eaters.
Indeed. The best one I know of other than the 'Dornian Heresy' one is the Roboutian Heresy one. Ironically in this AU it's Guilliman who turned archtraitor.
@@seekingabsolution1907 The major reason why he turned was because of the fate of his homeworld and his brothers and sisters in chains. If Guiliman found him, that likely his brothers and sisters in bonds. The ones he loved wouldn't have died. He would have had an anchor to hold hope.
He was also an Empath, he could feel the emotions of others and take burdens unto himself. Which he did, so when every one of his brothers and sisters in arms died he felt it all...
@@rockyroads8802 actually when he received the nails he lost his Primarch mojo, his Empath stuff, his transhuman dread, and his sons couldn’t even feel his Primarch awing presence. That’s why half of the legion had to be slaughtered instead of a third like the other chapters during Istavan Virus Bomb Purge.
I mean, better than "the guy whose name is angron is really angry"
Imagine....... Angron and Guiliman being so close as Sanguinius and Horus
Hopefully without ending up like Horus and Sanguinius.
@@terminallove3531 or ferrus and fulgrim
Maybe not such a good idea
Dude that sounds like a crazy alternate Heresy timeline. Imagine the famous painting of Horus and the Emperor standing over Sanguinius... but its traitor Guilliman and the Emperor standing over loyal Angron... does this make Angron more tragic?
You know who else is close?
Guilliman: "Brother, I have come for you!"
Angron: "MY PLACE IS HERE, 'BROTHER'!! FIGHTING AND DYING ALONGSIDE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS!!!"
Guilliman: "Alright, then I'll bring me and my legion down here to fight alongside you!"
Angron:"THAT...! Well, actually that'd be actually decent of you to do...
Uhh, YEAH, let's do that!!"
Guilliman: "Brother, I have come for you!"
Angron: "MY PLACE IS HERE, 'BROTHER'!! FIGHTING AND DYING ALONGSIDE MY BROTHERS AND SISTERS!!!"
Guilliman: "Do you see those stars in the sky? Each is a drop pod. The High Riders are now surrounded by my Ultramarines, trapped in here with you and yours. May I fight alongside you brother?"
Angron: "You brought your own sword, so yes. I lead."
Guilliman: "Of course Brother, it is your hunt."
@@Sorain1
Guilliman: Now, brother, can YOU keep up with me...? [Charges]
Angron: [brief moment of shock, grins] NO! YOU KEEP UP WITH ME!!! RAAAGGGHH!!!
I AGREE. G would not stand for that type of slavery.
I would genuinely be surprised if Guilliman wouldn’t have just glassed the planet, after picking up Angron and his friends of course. The man might have tried to show the high riders a better way over the slave issue. Negotiations would have been off the table after the nail situation and glassing after what they did to a primarch.
@@Historyfrek4everseeing what that planet had done to one of his brothers (who btw he loved them all deeply, as is proved when Lion see first hand his Primarch chill room he has built for peace times for all his brothers). He would have seen the nails, the slavory and as calculated as that....that planet would have been hopelessly fckd!
Guilliman is wrath incarnate when he snaps lol. And seeing one of his brothers butchered as Angron was...oh man those high riders would have been whiped from existence lol.
Gullimen's tactical genius and Angron's brute power would be almost unstoppable combo
Guilliman: Now brother I know you and your legion do not like overly complex plans. So for your part of this worlds liberation you are land here and go here in straight line."
Angron: Alright.
Honestly I vet the meme of tactical genius, but Rowboat is a logistical genius, not a tactical or strategic genius a compared to his brothers. Which is important, as this is how wars are actually won.
@@krullachief669 wtf are you talking about? Gullimen WROTE THE BOOK on tactics amd strategies. Sit down normie.
@@krullachief669 I'd say he's a logistical and strategic genius, but not a tactical one. He's known to be a better commander than many of his brothers in the big picture but is also known to be worse in gigantic hail mary battles. Naturally, he doesn't get into many of those for that explicit reason.
G: "Damn, my stratagem was supposed to be flawless. To have discounted so many orcs on the front line. If only we could break their front line."
A: "Bet."
Great video. Honestly angrons fate was sealed the moment he got the nails, but having his rebel friends with him while on crusade might make him less bitter.
If robute got him before the nails then that changes everything. Angron was supposed to be the empath of the primarchs, the one who made sure everyone got along. I feel like this would honestly be good enough premise for a part 2 video
I imagine that Roboute would assist Angron in his last stand.
Or, honour his brothers request and wait till Angron and his rebels lost. Let's be honest, Angron would have survived the fight, healed up by his brother.
Then Calth and possibly Istvaan wouldn't happen because Angron would be able to see through the backstabbing plan of Lorgar
@@ThomasSpettel yeah i see G-man helping his bro out out.
I think Angron's fate was sealed when the Emps kidnapped him and let his fellow slaves die; even with the nails, Angron was deeply loyal to those worthy; he was willing to die with those who followed him into rebellion after all, and seethed at missing his chance to.
If the Emperor backed Angron up, offered his own help, you would have had a newly compliant world in the Imperium, led by a grateful primarch, who, after learning that there are thousands of other worlds like his, where people are held as thralls to tyrants and monsters, would be eager to continue the crusade.
The nails may change aspects of his personality, but Angron wouldn't be the only Primarch who was messed up
@@SH-qs7ee The nails made him falling to Khorne pretty much a certainty, just by the very nature of the state of mind and actions that it forces, Primarchs with better odds still fell, I don't think Angron ever had a shot after it, his best end after the butchers nails would have been to have died an honourable and heroic death in battle, perhaps in the very early stages of the heresy before being fully corrupted.
Angron: “If you are truly my brother, then help me liberate my brothers and sisters from th-“
Guiliman: “… It’s already done”
Angron: “What?…”
Guiliman: “Yeah, our apothecaries even manage to remove the butcher’s nails from your head”
Angron: “…damn”
Goddamn those apothecaries are fast. Angron didn't even feel the nails being removed as they were talking
@@crimsonbaron4418 Ultramar science is the best in the galaxy
@@crimsonbaron4418
They must have good training from the Raven Guards, I guess.
Angron: " I can see clearly now the rain is gone..."
I think "fron your brothers' and sisters' heads" since angron's weren't operable.
Angron: Who are you and why did you teleport me away from my last stand?!
Guilliman: To replace you and your troops in the field with a Terminator Phalanx, my brother.
Angron: =O
not enought. Terminator armor is strong but even it is nothing against 10,000 lasgun all aimed at it
Who said anything about sending one terminator, @@jiyuhong5853? 😆
@@jiyuhong5853 But a couple hundred? with air support?
I'm seeing Tarasha Euten as Roboute brings home a broken mistreated version of himself and just being the best mother ever all over again. Imagine what that would be like. Mother to two Primarchs? One is the lord of a 500 world sub Empire, the other rehabilitated from being a professional killer before the implantation of the butcher's nails. You couldn't threaten this woman ever.
This is what an alternate Horus heresy needs, Guiliman will defect and Angron stays loyal, but at Angron's request the Ultramarins come in to help.
"You misunderstand. I'm threatening you with the _nice_ son."
"The-"
*ANGRY CHAINAXE NOISES*
@fluffywolfo3663
"This is madness!"
"Madness? THIS IS NUCERIA!!"
Now I’m imagining a version of the Horus Heresy where it’s much like the canon version, only the millisecond he hears that Konrad visited Tarasha to mess with her is the moment that Angron goes rouge from Horus’s side. Suddenly World Eaters are ignoring the commands of the Warmaster with some companies even outright attacking their old allies as they scour planets for Night Lords and where Konrad Curze may be…
Angron may not be fully with the Emperor like the rest of the loyal sons, but it’d certainly be a massive blow to the traitor legions while making it clear you do *not* mess with his and Guilliman’s mom.
@@henrypaleveda7760 look up the dornian heresy
I've had this same idea floating around my head for a while.
The utter tragedy that Angron was so close to one of his brothers, one who could help him regardless of whether he had the Butcher's Nails or not is very saddening.
Had Guilliman found Angron he also could have helped tear down the ruling class that turned Angron and his friends into Gladiators, Guilliman himself hates greedy politicians and massive wealth disparity as he knew of it on his own planet before his father's rule. And his father was killed by greedy politicians too.
So no doubt Guilliman would have felt a kinship with Angron in that sense.
Yeah, had Guilliman found Angron I think they would have had one of the greatest bonds between primarch's, more than enough to keep Angron from falling to Chaos.
I picture his tragic passing being one of defying Khorne, perhaps at the Drop Site Massacre. His last words something like "I am no one's slave!" before he finally dies, having cut a hole in the encirclement through which many more than in the original timeline of the loyalists escaped.
A follow up, I will say I just can't see Angron, turning on Robute if the latter saved him and his fellow slaves, especially if prior to the former gaining the Butcher's Nails. I just can't see Angron turning his back on Robute after such a thing, as that is the defining trait of his hatred of the Imperium, and the Emperor.
Yes and pre nails and for a bit post nails he honestly was a pretty decent dude who cared about his friends
I can't see Angron remaining loyal, no matter what. The Nails drive him mad. They're functionally Khorne's direct touch, except as some kind of arcane machine, and none of the champions have ever turned aside from their god's command. At best Angron would be a third party, killing Imperials and Chaos alike, which is functionally what he already is.
@@ZeroNumerous the point you're glossing over, is angron would be far more loyal, if someone came to not only his aid, but rescued his gladiatorial brothers in arms from certain defeat, with say, an army of ultramarines, including air support instead of just teleporting only angron to a spaceship and leaving his army to die alone.
I can see him putting loyalty to Robitussin for that.
You are right. Angron only became who we know him for after he lost his brothers and sisters. He was still niceish to those he cared about,hell,he howled for 3 days straight when he was forced to kill his adopted dad. If Guilliman helped him,and he would,because Guilliman is not only pragmatic but also a kind individual,angron would be fiercely loyal to his brother rather than the emperor or the imperium.
@@sokratikas I think he'd still be loyal to the empire too... but mostly because his brother is. He sees Roboute's devotion to the cause and though he himself feels the emperor is just a despot by another name... he'd rather the despot he knows with the modicum freedom of the Ultramar system and Nuceria... than disappoint his brother.
I actually wrote a fanfic of this idea. Angron still received the nails. however, during his final stand, it was guilleman who had arrived. unlike the emperor, guilleman charged down to the world of Nuceria. Charging head first to save his brother. The soldiers of Ultramar came down, destroying the opposing army. Angron and Guilleman worked together. fighting side by side. guilleman using his intellect to guide angron and his forces. Defeating the tyrants of Nuceria once and for all.
This battle created a unbreakable bond between the two brothers. Angron thankful for Guilleman coming to help him. And guilleman gaining a sense of Respect to Angron, due to how willing angron was, to die alongside his fellow slaves. Guilleman and angron became twin rulers of the sector. Guilleman was the strategist, but angron the general. Guileeman would plan out the battles, while angron fought them. The two working closely with one another. Angron would help train the soldiers physically, but guilleman taught them tactically. The world eaters and Ultramarines would be a united legion overall.
this bond with angron also made Guilleman more empathetic. Understanding angron was the way he was due to how he was raised as a slave. So, he was empathetic towards lorgar later on. Refusing to burn down Monarchia and instead speaking with lorgar. Each debating their views and gaining a respectful relationship to one another. Guilleman not agreeing with the whole religious thing, but also saw how it produced more loyal worlds. and lorgar respecting guillimans intellect.
Guilleman also spent time trying to find a way to heal angron from the butchers nails. Eventually discorvering a way to not remove them, but dampen the effects. the need for battle was there, but it didn't stop other emotions and feelings. Angron regained is empath powers and would eventually heal over time.
Can you link that?
@@daspaceasians sadly, I never got to post it. also, it was on my old Laptop that got broken (memory was completely lost) and cause I was using word. well, it was lost forever.
currently making a remake but that might be a while.
Sorry
@@halfknight2310 RIP 😢
@@halfknight2310 please let us know; it got better with each paragraph.
If you ever revive this in full, for the love of the emperor reply with the name and platform.
You know, with a Loyalist Angron and Guilliman working together, they could likely stop the Ruinstorm before it happens, which would give the defenders on Terra more men and resources to work with, which may lead to the Heresy ending in a stronger win for the Loyalists.
Supreme brain and nigh godly braun
Sadly if the nails exist Angron was dying anyway and lorgar demonizing him saved him
@@logandelaharpe6362 And that's the shit part of it all, especially if Angron is found post nails. Would likely lead to a scene of Guilliman holding his dying brother, unable to do anything, as the two legions look on in sorrow.
@@logandelaharpe6362 still the worst part of the Lore, emperor out of all people being unable to get rid of the nails?
@@averageeughenjoyer6429 The Emperor couldn't fix Konrad's crazy either, so it fits.
Wow… I wonder if Angron ever found out how close Ultramar was the Nucaria and if he ever held that against Robby G or if Guillimen found this out after the heresy and added another thing he holds on his shoulders and add to the ultra depression
Primarchs can read maps
@@docvaliant721 yeah no shit though I don’t think I’ve ever seen it mention outside this video just how close they were.
This boils down to warp travel insanity.
It is possible to arrive faster at a world on the other side of the galaxy, than a world, literally just a few lightyears away.
Time and space have little or no meaning in the warp, thus realspace distance relationships are meaningless.
Just because you know something is close by in realspace, doesn't mean it is close by warp travel.
It was rumored to have been hidden by the emperor so Annie wouldn't go back and destroy those high rider bastards. (From betrayer)
He did; the Shadow Crusade against Ultramar was orchestrated by the Word Bearers to bring about the Ruinstorm and ascend Angron to Daemonhood, and one of the actions during that was the sacking of Nuceria
I think you largely also overlook the third possibility: Ultramar subjugating Nuceria. I can certainly see Guilliman seeing the acts inflicted on the slaves as hideously barbaric, then take up arms alongside the slaves to liberate them from their sadistic overlords and bring the world of Nuceria into compliance with the laws and expectations of the realm of Ultramar, and later the Imperium. Do not underestimate one brother's anger at seeing an other so mistreated, nor the innate bond and draw many of the primarchs felt inexplicably toward each other. I think if this were to happen, even if the butchers nails could not be removed, a strange sense of gratitude and loyalty would linger within both the now-former slaves and even Angron himself, which could turn them into later becoming enraged at the traitors and embarking on a bloodletting for vengeance that would make even the Sons of Dorn give a moment's pause... A much stronger case might be made for this being the ideal post-nails timeline, since perhaps Angron and the Warhounds might remain loyal in the long term, with their hatred imposed on tyrants and traitors rather than loyal bothers and saviors.
Those are just my thoughts given what I know...
Add the lost Legions being traitor and ypu got a bloodimer warhammer
Angron and Guilliman being Bros is something I had no idea I needed until now!
With what we now know of what Agron would have been like without the Butcher's Nails, G-man and Angron would have been an amazing team.
G-Man: I am the smarts and logic.
Angron: I am the empathy and muscle.
Yep. They would have been unstoppable together.
Gulliman the brain and Angron the heart.
Horus Heresy would've end sooner
@@LordCommander-ui2fw I have developed concept of Astartes Corps under one of Thousand Sons videos of Oculus Imperia. While pair you say would be formidable, pairing e.g. Dron and Khan would be their match.
Ok here is a pretty tragic but epic resolve to the twos cannon fight,
During the fight Angrin is suddenly hit with a sense of confusion, why is he attacking his closest brother? Why attack the one who saved him and his gladiator comrades (I believe Horses would of used Angrons aggression to manipulate him)
This allows Gillamen to defete Angron and in this moment Angron looks upon Gillman and begs him to remove his butchers nails, Gillman response by reminding Angron that would kill him and Angron with out missing a beat reply’s “I know… but I am also not living… Brother I am already half dead, will you please end my pain? Will you not end my suffering?”
Gilliman fulters, his ussal calm deminer cracks, he knows his his mind this is the only option and it’s a logical one, but he can’t bare the thought of actually killing him.
Angron once more looks to his brother and comferts him. “Gilliman, I only ask becouse I know you know just as well as I do this is the best option, please brother… please end my pain”
The battlefield where the brothers stand is suddenly covered by a blanket of dust, then arfter it passes… only one brother is still standing.
I don't think it'd have come to that. I believe Gulliman would try to get help from Vulkan and Ferrus to at least mitigate the effect of the nail and when he realized that he couldn't remove it he'd put Angron into stasis in the hope of finding a cure while building up Nuceria to be as prosperous as Ultramar. But imagine if it was Angron who returned freed from the nail thanks to the combined resources of Ultramar and Nuceria, seeing a wounded Gulliman in stasis and learned about the Horus heresy and Fulgrim treachery. Instead of Gulliman meeting Mortarion I can see an encounter between Fulgrim and Angron. Angron being an experienced fighter possessing immense strength, a gifted empath that can read emotions and being blessed with the emperor sword just like Gulliman in this timeline would overwhelmingly beat Fulgrim.
Fulgrim: "Impossible! You are just a mindless beast living under the shadow of your brother! I am the champion of Slaneesh, greatest master swordman, I am perfection incarnated!"
Agron remove his helmet showing his operation scar :"No Fulgrim, you are not perfection, you are a fool. Unlike you I took nothing for granted. While my body was chained, in my mind I was always free. I used every calm moments I had back then to learn about people around me and I was grateful for Gulliman who gave me that opportunity. What about you? You squandered your talent in the pointless search for pleasure, you turned against your brother and subjected the very same people who saved and raised you to damnation. Guess Khan was right, you treat everything like a game that's why you'll always lose to people who are less gifted than you.
Fulgrim:"So what? Without Gulliman you are nothing and I killed him."
Angron:" No, you didn't even finish the job, Gulliman's men stopped you through sheer will and loyalty, something you will never understand. And if you were that great why couldn't you do a thing to Nuceria and Ultramar? It is because you are distracted or you are too weak against the men and women who build and defend the realm, the same baseline human that you used to look down upon? And you better hope he won't return or your little achievement will be undone. You think your little insult can shake me, the one who struggled every moments against the cursed nail? You know nothing of struggle you spoiled brat that's why you'll forever be imprisoned in mediocrity. My mind was clouded but now it's clearer than ever unlike you who's still mindlessly seeking pleasure in vain. Perhaps the title emperor's children does fit you, you have always been childish and never grow up and while you was right, I used to live under Gulliman's shadow but now I grew out of it. I'll be spreading the vision that united Ultramar and Nuceria: courage, honour and freedom. And I know I am walking a difficult path but hardship is nothing strange to me you'll soon see it and you can't stop me because you are weak in mind. I'll fight for the future of humanity starting by getting rid ourselves of the like of you!"
Then Agron swing the emperor's sword, banishing Fulgrim back into the warp once again.
@@minhducnguyen9276 fucking …. brilliant!
Why is your spelling so bad? Great comment, but your spelling is distracting.
@@minhducnguyen9276 doesnt the emperors sword perma kill daemons though?
@@historytank5673 I can see Agron becoming something between Gulliman and Corax. Gulliman always said Corax was more matured than his age, even more than him despite being younger due to the harsh environment he grew up in. The warhounds would be similar to the ultramarine due to their primarch absent and adoption of many teaching from Gulliman. But with the return of Agron, they would adopt a new philosophy. Agron wouldn't shy from acknowledging that he lack education but also emphasize that experience is the best teacher because that's how he learned everything. And since each marine must follow his primarch path, each member of the chapter would be required to lead a guardsmen or PDF to victory before becoming a full fledged battlebrother. To pay respect to his human comrades the warhounds will bring an army of their own PDF comprised of chapter serfs to every conflict they take part in, massively increase their fighting power despite their size.
Is it just me or has it been a while since we had a "What if..." Video, regardless I'm glad we got this one especially this very interesting scenario, definitely feel like Robot Girlyman would be more...amiable towards Angron and his fellow gladiators situation and would have helped them out rather quickly and tried to save as many of Angrons men as possible.
@@Jeff-fe8rfRobert gullible
@@Jeff-fe8rf Rowboat Gorillaman
Robotic Grill-master
If you haven't already, be sure to check out our last 'What If...' video about Perturabo :)
@@Specter5053 Alright, lets go through the whole list while we're at it:
Ramen Gorillafan
Robert Gouly-chan
Rancid Gamerman
Regurgitated Gimpstan
Reff Gland
Resolute Grand Slam
Rebel Grate Plan
Rattle Gallbladderan
Jeff
I imagine something similar to the Guts and Griffith dynamic: one is ambitious while the other is a skilled combatant. The encounter would probably be similar to Angron's fate in the Dornian Heresy where Guilliman aids Angron's rebellion and maybe brings Nuceria's ruling class to heel. Angron then learns under Guilliman's tutelage, and THEN they both of them get discovered by the Emperor; along the lines of the Emperor learning of the "Twin Stars of Ultramar: The brilliant Son of Konor and his Executioner, the Red Angel."
What I always find funny is that the Eldar ended up causing the problem they sought to prevent by ganking Angron when he was 'born', since the slavers would not have been able to capture him were it not for the injuries Angron sustained killing the space elves.
Yup. All it would take is some less capable Seer/Exarch going to do the job, or better yet someone (ELDRAD, CALLING ELDRAD ON LINE ONE!) stopping them with a 'more Eldar die that way fool!' and he'd never be captured. Mind you, he could have been adopted by a High Rider and still become a horrible person who turned to Khorne, but it wouldn't be the Eldar's fault this time!
Angron has the imperium in his crosshairs and nothing else. Who's to say that by intervening the Eldar did not prevent the rising of a primarch who would've been more hostile to the craftworlds?
I can't help imagining a meeting between Guilliman and the slave masters where Guilliman just sits down and tells them something along the lines of
"it seems my brother is in rebellion against you. So I'll give you a choice, surender and I'll make sure you aren't horribly murdered by my brother, or keep fighting and my sizable army of powerful super soldiers will join the war on my brother's side insuring your defeat and if necessary, eradication. your choice"
With what Angron went theough if roboute is already imperium
He’d likel find himself contemplating calling for Konrad
@@logandelaharpe6362Girllyman: "Father, send for the 8th legion."
*"Why, my son?"*
"I don't know....and yet I have a hunch. I'll be needing them soon."
@@michelveilleux123
"You can't kill us, you'll need us to govern this system."
"Let me give you a lesson on how deterrence works. It requires both sides having close to equal capacity to harm each other to the point both will hesitate to start a confrontation. And you are not as important to me as you thought."
*Nightlords walk in*
And since you just threatened me with such an impotent threat, you just proved to me that you are neither competent or trustworthy enough to keep. I have borrowed some of my brother's men to remind you of that lesson until you die."
@minhducnguyen9276 nightlords' Captain: "I'd say doing this gives me little to no joy. But frankly given the situation Lord Guilliman described, that would be an outright lie."
It's also possible that Guilliman would forgo diplomacy and send his legion to bring down the High-Riders of Nuceria the moment he sees what they have done to his brother. While Guilliman is often seen as "a bland fellow, a competent genius untroubled by the miseries of unbounded humours"[Plague Wars], he can and has lost his temper before. He would already be on the edge due to High-Riders' cultural practices being the anti-thesis of his and his father's(Konor) ideals. By Horus' own account[Vengeful Spirit] and from what we've seen from the stories which he's in, he is a rather sentimental fellow and has a tendency to follow emotion whenever people he cares about are placed in peril[Know No Fear, Unremembered Empire, Pharos]. Seeing his brother horrifically mutilated might just be the straw that broke the camel's back.
Oh 100%
4 words and Angron is saved without his family dying and ones I could see Roubute shouting as he makes his way to a Stormbird
Deploy the 1st company
Deploy
Ah sir deploy what forces
DEPLOY ALL FORCES
Can you imagine just how absolutely livid he would be if Gulliman arrived just in time to learn that the rebellion was put down, and the High Riders had kept Angron's body as a trophy? Imagine them presenting the 'symbol of civilization's triumph over barbarism' proudly to Gulliman in person, as a surprise to open negotiations with; Angron's body, preserved and chained down symbolically on a grand plinth.
@@Sorain1 yes I can imagine a virus bomb being detonated
Chapter Master: But sir, based on our rules, we only need to send one company to take a world.
G-Man: It's more than a world. It's my brother down there.
I don't see Angron joining Horus if Guilliman saved him and the slave army. We see friendship can be formed even with those who have the nails so it isn't like they can truly be feeling only rage. With also the Slaves being alive resentment would be lower from Angron to the Warhounds since it wouldn't be loosing the family he wanted to be with, so as long as they don't have a rivalry with each other.
Still back to the friendship bit, most likely the two Primarchs relationship would be more like what Lorgar and Angron's was like during/after the attack on the Dark Eldar.
In the brief moments where Angron is free of the nails influence. He seems to not actually like violence that much and values camaraderie and brotherhood above everything else. So he'd likely place his loyalty to whomever helped him first even if he didn't agree with the Emperor.
Why not? Angron was a broken rage machine, slaves or no, whose only purpose was to fight and slay and eventually be slain. Angron was labeled Khorne's from the nail's first bite, and he only had the options of death-by-nails, death-by-combat, or ascension to daemonhood. Horus didn't need to manipulate Angron, so much as blame the Emperor for Angron's broken state. He could have easily done the same with Guilliman.
"Is it not our brother who promised to save you? How did that end up? Your fellow warriors were spent across a thousand worlds, and you are still as broken and enslaved as ever. Just serving a new master."
Bam. Angron flips. The friendship with Guilliman would only end in tragedy on Guilliman's part, as he either slays Angron himself or watches Angron die.
I'm pretty sure that daddy Emp had the resources to remove the nails or find a way. But he just didn't cared. So, If the Emp would've been the father figure he always mimiced, angron could have survive the nails.
@@kellerwarterartjom9949 The existence of a loyalist Angron would have driven a wedge in the relationship between many primarchs and the emperor even when they'd stay loyalist regardless.
Angron not as much joined Horus, as distanced himself form Emperor.
Mind a suggestion for a fantheory?
"Could Perturabo have removed Angron's nails?"
I mean, Perturabo's entire gimmick is that he should know how everything works...
better yet, modify it
Perturabo: "Brother, I have modified the nails."
Angron: "Explain."
Perturabo: "You can now turn them on, and off, at will. Or you will once we set the trigger. Currently it's set to a phrase you would never say accidentally."
Angron: "Tell me."
Perturabo: "The High Riders were right."
Angron: "That'll do."
I always figured Dorn and Guilloman would have found each other in space. The the Emperor would have found them crusading building and combining their empires as one. I feel like those two would have got along great not necessarily best of friends but best of work colleagues.
In the lore Dorn and Guilliman are actually really close, and they're both very similar to each other. Horus himself sought counsel from them when he was appointed Warmaster, describing it like how a sibling looks for support from their older brothers. Their only falling out was the Codex argument though neither were in good mental states at the time, and they conclusively buried the hatchet when Guilliman saved Dorn during the Iron Cage.
Rogal was ranked first both amongst Guilliman's Dauntless Few and in a list of his friends, and the Smurf himself gifted him the three sisters of spite. There's also a funny moment in Saturnine where Dorn has a moment of doubt and jokingly says that Guilliman must never hear of this, and in Master of Mankind he vocally wishes Roboute was there with him when arguing with Custodes.
Guilliman being a diplomat: use lance fire to vaporize the slaver army and teleports to Angron's location: ... rip and tear, brother ? .... Angron: RIP AND TEAAAARR!!!!!
Epic bro moment
Best Case Scenario is Guilliman finds Angron before the Emperor does and before he gets the nails implanted. Probably while he's still expanding the Ultramar Empire. At that point Angron doesn't have the psychopathic bent that let him fall so easily, nor the trauma induced by the Emperor. Instead he has a stalwart, logical and peaceful brother that he can bounce his aggressive tendencies off of for a clear mind prior to each battle. And in a sense, he might be the first to notice something off about Horus because his mind isn't half eaten by Butchers Nails. Thus armed with foreknowledge, I can see Guilliman approaching his brother Horus before his appointment to War Master and asking him what's wrong, with Horus taking the opportunity to dump all his frustrations and suspicions about their father on Guilliman who has the right mindset to understand, and Guilliman logically pointing out that the source of these revalations cannot be trusted even if they are correct. But if they are correct then something must be done about their father who kept such secrets from them.
From here I can see all the Primarchs getting together, including yes, Alpharius (This is a lie), to discuss the issues they see with the Imperium from a myriad of perspectives. Thusly the Primarchs would come to a conclusion BY THEMSELVES with no input from the Emperor of a plan of action, possibly with Alpharius (This is a lie) offering several clandestine solutions to problems that would otherwise tear the Empire apart if approached by any other Primarch.
And thus at the appointed hour would Brother be set against Brother, the forces of the Imperium split seemingly in half by "Traitors" within the ranks, select Legions rushing to Terra for the inevitable final conflict of the Imperial Rebellion... and Dorn himself, flanked by Custodes, point blank asking... nay, demanding answers from his father about the truth of things.
The Imperium of Man may well remember things quite differently in this future, with Emperor Horus leading the Imperium of Man into the 40th Millennium not with the overwhelming ignorance and technophobia of the Emperor's rule, but instead a foreknowledge of the Warp and its dangers, of Psychers trained and augmented to resist the temptations of the Warp. A Grey Knight LEGION specifically to destroy Daemons and keep worlds safe, and the Imperium's Inquisition fully committed to rooting out the one who truly did fall to the temptations of the Chaos Gods... Lorgar, as well as other threats to the Imperium.
There would be two Legions completely gone from the Imperium of Mankind, that of Magnus the Red, whose forces would've eventually succumbed to the temptations of the warp despite Magnus' best efforts to prevent it, going down the exact same route they went after the Burning of Prospero and creating the Rubric Marines, and Lorgar's Holy Crusaders, who now serve as the Chaos Marines of the setting and bolster their ranks through adherants to the Faithful of The Great Game's newest faction... The Chaos God calling Himself The True Emperor of Man. A wrathful scheming individual whose dread gaze falls upon the forces of the Imperium that He once led... and its destruction, for if He could not have it, nobody would. The other Chaos Gods content to occasionally work with Him in various Dark Crusades but otherwise working against both each other and the Chaos God of Pride.
Now imagine THAT Theoreticus Future.
Technophobia wasn’t apart of emps rule he pushed for advancement that came in the years after
@@logandelaharpe6362eh; he let the mechanicum exist, which led to technophobia even before the heresy really kicked off.
That said, very different imperium anyway.
Having read Angron’s Primarch novel, before he had the Butchers nails implanted he was a completely different person. He was calm and calculated and genuinely cared for his fellow humans. I honestly think if Angron was found before the butchers nails were implanted, that he would remain loyal to the imperium. A lot is made of Angron not conquering his home world but reading what happened to him as he arrived as a child on Nuceria, I believe this would of been the same fate for any of the Primarch’s. The Novel also eludes to Angron having some kind of healing ability if I remember correctly. The Angron novel is still my favourite Primarch book. I Definitely recommend to read it if you haven’t already.
I wholeheartedly agree about the Angron book, it's so good. Best novel in the entire Primarchs series, hands down (with Lorgar as a close second).
@@40KTheories I still need to read Lorgar’s. Will definitely give that a go. Thanks for reminding me.
Angron not getting the nails and fully developing his intended Primarch role is the biggest 'what if' of the Primarchs
@@Fordo007 yeah I agree, it’s one of the Emperors biggest failings what happened to Angron and the way he was treated.
After the death of yarrick, I can see the orcs getting very involved in taking on Angron. I personally hope that Ghazghkull Thraka goes toe to toe with Angron, it would make for an amazing addition to the 40k lore.
The only death I can think of for gaz is yarrik as an imperial Saint and yelling something about how death couldn't save gaz from death
ANGRON! YOOS KILLED MY BALE EYE! EZ WAS MINE! I IZ GONNA RIP YOUR STOOPID HEAD OFF!
ghaz got wrecked by a space furry, nevermind daemon angron
@@some_shitposting_idiot3023 sure but he is better now
Khorne is ready to see that fight.
I can't help but thinking of the phrase: "I am my brother's keeper" when pondering theoretical interactions between Guilliman and Angron. Two demigods so diametrically opposed to each other it is almost biblical. One thinking of nothing else but hatred and the other of his brother's salvation. Great What IF.
Honestly this would make an interesting duality representing the two sides of Rome, the engineering, civil, culture represented by Guilliman. And the militaristic, gladiatorial, savage side represented by Angron.
I think there is still one part that could be a opening to him falling, even if he lacked the Nails.
We know that Angron, in his more lucid moments, resented the fact that he was send to in essence 'enslave' planets and systems that were no threat to the Imperium and simply wanted to be left alone.
I honestly cannot imagine anything worse for a liberated slave, especially Angron who pre-Nails was a very empathic person, to be forced to do.
Whose to say he wouldn't attempt a more diploamtic approach if he still retained his mind? Even if he had the Butcher's Nails, the fact that he'd be crusading alongisde Guiliman means that overwhelming force wouldn't always be his first answer. Perhaps Guiliman could convince him of the way they do things, speaking of a grand dream of Re-unification
@@nooneatall1830 That is a fair point but at the end of the day it would depend entirely on if the Emperor decides to allow Guiliman and Angron to work closely together.
After all each legion was seemingly designed for a specific purpose or form of warfare and, lets be honest here, the Warhounds were designed to be nothing more then a blunt weapon.
Angron might have tried more diplomacy but the Emperor would probably continuously pushed him to just crush them as a message and to move on as quickly as possible.
We shouldn't forget that there were worlds that were doing just fine, that didn't need to be 'saved', where science and reason thrived.
Who would look at the Imperium and say "no thank you, we don't want trouble but we don't want to be part of this." even when a primarch was trying to convince them.
The Emperor would not have cared a bit about how Angron felt about the situation and just ordered the subjugation of those worlds.
If he was saved before getting the Butcher's nails I could imagine Angron forming a strong bond with Vulkan. It would be hilarious if Angron of all Primarchs looked at Salamanders' way of war and told his brother "Aren't the Flamers a bit much, brother?"
@@HubiKoshi "Vulkan why did you throw that innocent Eldar child in the fire?"
@@visitingforgefather5997 "Oh ho ho brutha, dar are no "innocent" Eldar." Vulkan, after throwing another Elder child into said fire.
Angron without the Butcher's Nail: *thinks up a joke*
Angron: Hey, Roboute!
Roboute: Yes, Angron?
Angron: Did you know.
Roboute: Know what?
Angron: You can't have "diplomat" without "dip."
Roboute: *chuckles*
Angron: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You were my first lore channel followed way back when. And a staple. Kudos🔥
I like to hope that Guilliman could keep him just calm enough to be to control himself. Then instead of trying to remove the nails Vulcan might find a way to turn the volume on them down and allow him to meet his legion without it becoming a nightmare. Angron was an empath capable of feeling other people's emotions and easing their pain and his legion would have inherited some of that. Perhaps being around his sons without turning them into monsters would have acted to work against the nails and bring him some peace with the more of the around him the more calm he felt until he could finally be what he was meant to be, a healer. Instead of the World breakers they could have been a medical force, perhaps called the Emperors Hand, with white and gold armor their arrival would have been seen as a salvation wherever they went.
Effectively making the first and foremost legion for a QRF and provider of aid to civilians.
Ironically it was Angron’s empathy and compassion that lead to him getting the nails. It was years after he was captured that he was implanted, he stayed a slave because of his bond and empathy with his fellow slaves. Basically every other brother save maybe Vulkan would have chosen to escape.
konrad would have went extra murder happy, then get some of the slaves for their own actions (or one gets caught in the middle of a fight).
There is also the option that GUilliman joins ANgron in his rebellion conquering Nuceria and allowing Angron to take his revenge. And also gaining access to the Butcher Nail's STC, and the other advanced technology such as Silver Vines (amorphous metal), and anti-grav boots.
Late but I find the idea of Angron making Guilliman a type godparent for his Legion in case his life ends bittersweet.
"I've made up my mind."
"Angron-"
"HEAR ME! ...Hear me...please..."
"...Very well brother."
"I am dying Guilliman. That fact, cannot be escaped, even with Ultramar's greatest medical minds working together: Remove them, I die. Keep them in, I die, slowly. I refuse those warriors now placed under me to even damn themselves to go through the hell I have with this."
"You've heard of the rumors."
"A raging beserker, I am brother. Not an idiot. They wish to become...close to me, and think that the Butcher's Nails is the best way to understand me. I will not allow this! Never again Guilliman! Never again..."
"You know there will be push back with this decision."
"It's for the best. The War Hounds will thrive with your boys in blue Roboute. In time...I know they'll understand."
-A recorded conversation rediscovered by an Ultra Marine's Captain.
@@michelveilleux123 After that, the War Hounds, while never fully understood their gene-father, they honoured his promise to follow the example of the Ultramarines, heredity the unbreakable brotherhood their Primarchs held. The War hounds follow the codex's edicts and form some chapters during the second founding:
- The War Hounds
- The Storm Wardens
- The Emperor's Shadows
- The Fire Fists
- The Brazen Minotaurs
I find it odd that the assumption is that Guilliman wouldn't just side with Angron's rebellion... I think he has shown in various books that he would realize the best way to bind Angron to the Imperium with loyalty would be to aid his Rebellion, even if only by giving the slaves weapons to even the odds.
Even if Guilliman was unable to reach Angron and his gladiator comrades before the entire rebellion thing, and even if their nails would make (at least most of) them unable to be integrated into the XII legion, Guilliman could easily offer to rehabilitate them and offer them a peaceful life on some agri-world in wider Ultramar where they can just do their own thing and develop their own society free from any tyranny. Guilliman could also use his diplomatic and military might to enact a takeover of Nuceria and reform the government and society to get rid of all of its more undesirable practices, meaning that all of the slaves like that if Angron's comrades would be freed and given a chance at a better life. What would be considered a run-of-the-mill mundane compliance action for Guilliman would have shown to Angron that Guilliman was honorable and could be trusted, and that the Imperium was a cause that he could get behind v
I'd imagine if Angron and Guilliman fought despite their history, Lorgar trying to join in the fight would result to him being hit together by his now very very angry brothers.
Imagine this Angron still going traitor, but not out of revenge but loss of control and Horus' manipulation. And then Guilliman and Angron meet in battle with the former trying to save latter. And just as lorgar intervene and strike down a wounded Guilliman, Angron snaps out of it for at least a while and cuts down lorgar before the butcher's nail finally kill Angron. The Ultramarines find lorgar in pieces and Guilliman mourning over the deceased Angron.
I've been waiting for this one. Thank you for making it!
Judging by how each scenario was talked about, these scenarios happened after Guilliman was found but before Angron was found, correct? What if Guilliman found Angron even earlier than that? Like within that 5 year gab between Guilliman's start of building of Ultramar after taking over of Macragge, but before the Emperor found either of them?
A combined empire of angron wrath and gulliman shrewdness
An empire that will be at least double the size from the current lore as nothing makes a goo diplomat looks better than a ferocious warmonger under his leash (in the enemy eyes)
Also world eaters will have there own a smaller & less developed empire next to the main one
Both chapters will be allies on the battle field later on
The rest depends again on is it pre nails or post nails , pre rebellion or post rebellion
Pre nails and rebellion : both empires are massive to the point that the emperor may actually recognize their work , angron is loyalist to a fault and traitors get a more devastating defeat , all enemies of humanity will know the name of the world eaters , everything else is lore friendly
Post nails pre rebellion : empires are big (yet still at least double lore) , angron employees berserkers much more in his tactics ,angron remain a loyalist but more loyal to gulliman than the emperor, traitors are defeated with more casualties , all across the galaxy the name world eaters terrifies humanity enemies as they're the bogeyman that will destroy the enemy..everything and the nightmarish defenders of the imperium core regions and who ban veneration of the emperor in their ranks , they also favor the mechanicus
Post nails post rebellion: lore size empire ,a second small/tiny empire for angron , angron takes a natural stand till gulliman brings him in , he and his chapter serve gulliman instead of the empire , they're the monsters that everyone fears and humanity sees as the lesser of two evils in combat , the only chapter that will not work with the sisters of battle while hunting all Ecclesiastes they find because they oppose emperor veneration to the point the inquisition have a constant feud with them and the admenstratum wishes they die in battle as they hold on to the pre heresy view on science but only to spite the emperor , they also have a complex relation with the mechanicus
A combined empire of angron wrath and gulliman shrewdness
An empire that will be at least double the size from the current lore as nothing makes a goo diplomat looks better than a ferocious warmonger under his leash (in the enemy eyes)
Also world eaters will have there own a smaller & less developed empire next to the main one
Both chapters will be allies on the battle field later on
The rest depends again on is it pre nails or post nails , pre rebellion or post rebellion
Pre nails and rebellion : both empires are massive to the point that the emperor may actually recognize their work , angron is loyalist to a fault and traitors get a more devastating defeat , all enemies of humanity will know the name of the world eaters , everything else is lore friendly
Post nails pre rebellion : empires are big (yet still at least double lore) , angron employees berserkers much more in his tactics ,angron remain a loyalist but more loyal to gulliman than the emperor, traitors are defeated with more casualties , all across the galaxy the name world eaters terrifies humanity enemies as they're the bogeyman that will destroy the enemy..everything and the nightmarish defenders of the imperium core regions and who ban veneration of the emperor in their ranks , they also favor the mechanicus
Post nails post rebellion: lore size empire ,a second small/tiny empire for angron , angron takes a natural stand till gulliman brings him in , he and his chapter serve gulliman instead of the empire , they're the monsters that everyone fears and humanity sees as the lesser of two evils in combat , the only chapter that will not work with the sisters of battle while hunting all Ecclesiastes they find because they oppose emperor veneration to the point the inquisition have a constant feud with them and the admenstratum wishes they die in battle as they hold on to the pre heresy view on science but only to spite the emperor , they also have a complex relation with the mechanicus
this young man physiology bears very close resemblance to mine! it was always obvious that I was fabricated rather than being born, but what is really going on here ? theoretical: someone is randomly implanting supermen into planets and letting their talents carry them on into positions of power. practical: this someone is a complete ret*rd ( Erda ).
@@polasamierwahsh421 That'd be epic.
1:26 This is what I will see the Ultramar Auxilia as now. Not some look alike to the Imperial Guard, but blue Roman soldiers, with las-weapons, chainblades, HMGs, rocket launchers, and tanks. Combined arms seems like a good idea for them too. They're loyal and fight well, why not combine all three?
One thing we forget about when it comes to the Butcher's Nails and the Emperor's diagnosis of them in Master of Mankind, the nails at that time were in Angron's mind for more than a few years, maybe even a few decades when emps looked at them and made his assertations. This is all due to Angron refusing to be with the Emperor for very long and not letting anyone near him (rightfully so) for such a long time. We must take into account the time passing and the how long it actually took for the Imperium itself to get access to the nails and the knowledge about them.
However, the story is completely different if Guilliman was the one to find Angron during his rebellion and he were to look at the Nails. At the time, Angron's rebellion lasted under a year according to Slave of Nuceria, which is a vast difference of time between when the Emperor and Guilliman look at the nails. If Guilliman found him and helped him that early, it is entirely possible for one of 3 things to happen:
1. The nails haven't taken over most of his mind and can be mostly taken care of with some lingering after effects. The best option being Angron's physiology works to his benefit and he can recover in due time.
2. The nails have taken over a good chunk but can still be removed. This option leaves Angron with the nails influence but he can live with these lingering effects and one day may lead a somewhat comfortable life. Even with his primarch physiology, he cannot escape them forever and will constantly have the reminder of them, but hope is still possible.
3. The nails are irreversible and there is nothing that can be done. Angron is in a word: FUCKED. But at least he can see that his people are safe and one day, he will meet his end... But it will be on his terms.
So really, the effects of the nails can be completely different depending on the time scale. Personally, I believe in Primarch genes and their bodies, as we are hit over the head with how amazing they are all the time, I find it hard to believe if Angron is was found early and there was something to be done about the nails, he could have been salvaged. In a way. There will always be the effects of the nails, but due to how long they are in, will depend on Angron's survivability.
That and it is really bullshit that a Primarch's body and mind can be crippled for life and kill him from exposure to an implant for only a yearish after we hear how Guilliman ran into deep space without a helmet and was fine, how Ferrus survived on sand for the first decade of his life, how Leman was perfectly fine in subzero temperatures on fenris since he was a pup and so on.
Imagine a campaign with Angron and Gulliman working together. Guillman would be in command of overall strategy and Angron would lead the assault forces. They could be like Napoleon and Marshall Ney.
I had imagined a scenario (fan fic I had in my head that never was committed to paper) and I did imagine the first moment there being a fight with nuceria being among ultramar but then a kinship from losing their fathers due to the ruling class
"The Highriders forced me to kill my father when I refused their wishes!"
"And a traitor close to my family killed mine, in hopes to usurp our ruling family through unlawful sedition. We are not so different, Angron."
"How so, Perfect Son?"
"Because we've both lost people we loved and cared for. Yes, Father should have helped you and yours on the mountain that day...and it pains me so that our worlds were so close and yet so far."
"...I will not apologize."
"I do not expect one...brother."
NGL, personally i think Angron is the only Primarch completely and totally justified in his choices. He alone was treated WILDLY different from all the others. As a slave, a pit fighter, not a warrior. The Big E deserves all his enemies.
Angron was literally done dirty on multiple occasions. Being made to kill his adoptive father and then his real father stealing him away from helping his gladiator family. He was a slave there and then made to be a slave under his father.
@@TheDandyMann and then again a slave to Khorne...sad. i've read somewhere Angron was supposed to be like a healer, capable of taking the suffering of others on himself, almost paladin like. Such a shame.
@@TheDandyMann Yeah. Big E has a habit of acting like those he says he's rescuing humanity from. He sprinkles it with altruism, but his refusal to consider that he's not always right is a big problem, like pretending his sons are employees instead...
@@grantkruger3689 I always had the theory that angron wasn't seen as a slave by the emperor, he was seeing as a sacrifice
However forcing the nails on the world eaters was not justified even with his background.
"Okay so this is the Microsoft Wor-"
"I changed my mind put me back into the arenas"
Unfortunately, I think once Angron was implanted with the Butcher's Nails, he was a lost cause.
That being said, Big E transporting Angron like that, despite fully knowing well what situation he was in, was a stupid decision. He couldn't even explain to Angron himself why he did that.
I feel like if he had the butcher's nails it was inevitable that he would fall to Chaos. But if him turning traitor is the result of his poor treatment.
Of course he couldn't explain himself. Angron was an insane rage monster.
Imagine you find your son after years of him being lost. He's in some random backwater, surrounded by cops, and he's armed a bunch of monkeys with knives. He plans to die fighting the cops alongside his knife monkeys.
Would you let him do it? Of course not. Would you help him? Of course not. You'd save him from himself, explain to the cops that he's insane, and try to help him.
That's exactly what the Emperor did. And He failed to help Angron, because He couldn't remove the Nails. So now He's got no other option but let His son wander the galaxy looking for a place to die. The Emperor made the right decision with the info He had. How could He know that there was some arcane device that would ruin even one of His sons?
One theory i heard of why the emperor acted as he did was simple. He did it to keep him alive. Hatred and resentment was the only thing keeping Angron alive.
@@ZeroNumerous Except those “monkeys” are fucking people, and those “cops” are slave lords. What a retarded comparison.
@@ZeroNumerous I mean those cops where the ones who hammered the nails into his brain because he refused to fight his adopted father figure.
The same cops who more less forced people into life or death situations for entertainment or as you would say making the monkeys dance.
The emperor made the worst choice in dealing with angron.
He had two options.
1. Blow up the planet with everyone including angron on it. Why? Because angron was a lost cause and that world damaged him beyond repair.
2. He could have handled the situation in a million different ways then what he did in canon.
He could easily have teleported them all out.
He could have healed them up sent them back with angron and gave them a choice of finishing the fight themselves or have the war hounds at their side.
All on the condition that angron and his comrades owed him for the save.
He owed the high riders nothing and angron was his son.
He should have sided with angron 100% considering all that happened on that world.
They literally damaged a irreplaceable tool.
Angron and his eaters of cities had every reason to revolt because it was either that or continue being the playthings of the high riderers.
So yeah the corpse emperor should not be surprised angron went the way he did considering how he treated him worse then dirt.
Another question that could be interesting: What would happen if Rogal Dorn and Perturabo had worked together more often? Would they develop a respect for each other, or would their hatred just deepened?
Considering a contest Perturabo had with a master sculpture on Olympia it would probably deepen the hate. Despite Perturabo being a great character he is immensely petty. During the sculpture contest Perturabo saw the sculpture of his opponent and believed it was actually better than his so he destroyed it.
without the right mediator (or common enemy) it would deepen the hate, but the nature of the project would be important too; say Perty is finally assigned to rebuild an area while Dorn holds the front.
The only mutual enemy that might be harsh enough to bond them would be the Rangdan. Those two work together in that nightmare campaign(s) and I could see them coming out of it, both legions harrowed and maimed, but bonded like no other legions were.
Would be excited to see Angron's special Primarch power in action. Removing psychological pain sounds like a gimmick, but in a grim dark universe , it would of been top tier. His legion would instead emulate their fathers gift of healing. I could see Angron being among the most beloved to his brothers and emperor.
I don't think his sons would have inherited their father's abilities.
Just like no son of Sanguinius was able to see the future.
@@terminallove3531 no but Angron having the power would still make the legion a beacon, picture the stable geneseed and his ability in tact. Angron without the nails would have ran the world eaters very differently. he could even have helped to heal anyone who had the butcher's nails implanted.
I could see the War Hounds getting a duel reputation. "Loyal guard dogs." Who like most dogs, can help with emotional issues. and "Dogs of War" on the battlefield. Because as the saying goes, beware the fury of a kind man.
@@Sorain1And I quote
_"Heaven weeps when good men go to war. Hell trembles when they give them a reason too"_ or something along those lines
Angron, showed compassion for his human crew aboard the Conqueror. That's with the nails buzzing and biting. He would have been among the greatest men of the age of the imperium.
Whooooooooo it's time! I've been waiting for this one. The hype is real!
Had this idea a long time ago, overjoyed to see someone do it.
Angron: "Rage Anger!"
Gulliman: *Places hand on Angron's shoulder* "Sightly miffed, Smoldering unhappiness."
"Slighlty miffed, smoldering unhappines."
LMMAAOOOOOOOOOOO
I would have never thought Ultramar was so close to Nuceria, in my mind it makes little sense that a barbaric world would be so close to the most “perfect” and organized sector in the Imperium
If Guilliman had saved Angron, Angron's next intention would be 'hey so we should rebel against the Imperium since you can clearly govern better than that Emperor bastard'
What an interesting theory.
Very entertaining.
A new 40k Theories video, very nice. The theories are very creative and the videos are well done.
World eaters and ultramarines sounds really scary and imo would be one of the best legion combos among the 20
Combining dispassionate cold and calculating strategies and logistics of the Ultramarines and the raw might of the World Eaters
@@carsoncasmirri3874 Gulliman to outsmart the enemies and Angron to create so much pressure that they are not allowed to think in the first place, ordered chaos.
Awesome Video 👍. Interesting idea on a What If Scenario.
Someone should write a story for all of the Primarchs either dying or turning to chaos really early or right off the bat. I want to see the emperor realizing his backseat emperor approach just isn’t gonna be possible and creates a plan for humanity where he leads the armies all the way until the end of his plans. I would love to see him finding more ways to improve his power and make unlikely alliances and battling with chaos empowered Primarch (probably several at once because Emps hits like that)
The chaos sanguinius might be trouble
Now we need a what if vid about every Primarch's upbringing was switched like baby Dorn landed on Nuceria, baby Sanguinius landed on Nostramo, baby Jaghatai Khan landed on Fenris, baby Leman Russ landed on Prospero, baby Lion El'Jonson landed on Monarchia, baby Vulkan landed on Barbarus etc
Khan this wolf is not fast enough
Lorgar burning of the 500 worlds.
Angron turns up....
Lorgar: my bad have a nice day brother.
I’ve got the feeling that this would result in both Angron not turning traitor, as well as Angron not forcing his Warhounds to accept the nails.
Now that’s a 40k movie/series I can get behind..
Imagine the things they could accomplish together.. the mind of Guiliman and his diplomatic prowess and the empathetic nature and ability to read others of Angron pre butchers nails… that would have made the Empire of Ultramaar neigh unstoppable in negotiations.
I'd imagine If Guilliman saved Angron and his brothers and sisters from Nuceria, had recived medical attention from the very finest that Macragge had to offer, he'd be very thankful and supportive of him, if not visibly than in private. Angron would be miffed sure, but all in all, he wanted his arena siblings safe in the end.
I can see that as time goes on as Angron becoming acquainted with his brothers with roughly the same outcome, Angron would be very cold and distant with them, maybe even out right hating some of them. The Emperor especially so. He'd be rather taken with Corax I think, giving their similar backgrounds, maybe even create a friendship with the Primarch of the Raven Guard. But I can see him and Guilliman being true brothers in this. Always standing beside or even slightly behind him as a show of support. The Diplomat and the Red Warrior, the open hand of friendship and the closed fist of violence, the two legions would I think work rather well together. Guilliman, with the bulk of his forces, and Angron with his Warhounds being more along the lines of shock and awe tactics. Angron would learn from Guilliman to I'm sure.
I think after the victory on Ullanor and the crowning of Horus to Warmaster, Angron would be angry with the Emperor's choice, not because he wanted to be Warmaster, but because he believed that Guilliman was more worthy of such a title. Guilliman would try and sooth his brother's anger until the Heresy comes swinging. After that, who knows.
Me: sees the topic
Also me: adding this to the list of “What If?” Fanfics I need *Yesterday*
9:08 no, I'm not convinced anything could have kept angron loyal to the imperium during the horus heresy. As a former slave he was ideologically and morally opposed to the imperium itself.
Have we had a video asking what would have happened if Angron was raised instead as the adopted son of one of the Nucerian elites instead of as a gladiator?
How would an empath grow up witnessing the cruelties of the bloodiest gladiatorial combat and would this affect his whole battle prowess? With him not growing up with the Butcher's Nails and considering the possibility that he might still decide to help a slave revolt, he could've become a politically minded Primarch like Guillman who uses his charisma and cunning to outwit his opponents. However, he could've also grown up suppressing his empathic abilities and been a more arrogant or cruel looking down upon the average humans as nothing more than slaves like how the current Imperial elite act.
I am just spit balling here as I haven't read any Angron books and am using knowledge you have mentioned.
You do bring interesting ideas. The Roboutian Heresy had Angron live life as a farmer of Nuceria, who upon seeing the gladiators, was so overhwlemed by anger, he raised a rebellion that took over the city of Desh'ea(Which canonically is the city where he lived as a gladiator and received the Butcher's Nails.)
It would be interesting tho to see Angron raised by the ruling class of Nuceria
I could see him deciding that, as he can feel the same pain from gladiators as from fellow nobility, the nobility is in the wrong. Some fool tells him "Why don't you fight yourself then?" and Angron proceeding to start challenging nobles to matches with the prize of "You stop participating in the games." as his prize. So the nobles start out laughing, get to see a Primarch rip and tear their best pet gladiators apart, (or beat them down and earn their respect for the more reasonable ones) and eventually start playing dirty. So it becomes a case of not a 'rebellion' as much as a High Rider civil war, with Angron's side backed by the Gladiators (and with a Primarch so we know where this is going.) coming out on top. Possibly forced to compromise about abolishing the games, turning them from slave butchery into a professional (blood) sport. A way for anyone brave and capable enough to rise to wealth and fame no matter where they came from. Going for lavish large scale spectacles to make up for the lowered bloodshed maybe. (Think the Roman colliseum doing 'naval battles' and the like.) So by the time Gulliman hears of Nuceria, it's becoming a tourist/entertainment trade hub for the area. (In as much as those exist in 30k.) The Great Gladiator King, Angron putting on the Greatest Games in the Galaxy! Whole armies of gladiators clashing in grand 'field army games' and such.
Me when starting this video: "Where is Remleiz? Is he safe? Is he alright?".
An excellent what if video 40k theories! I do believe Guilliman would have handled the Nuceria issue much batter than daddy dearest. It would have been so cool to see Guilliman and Angron developing a close bond. Angron valued loyalty and brotherhood over anything else so, I don't think he would have sided with Horus as easily as in the current timeline even if Angron still resents the Emperor.
Honestly with what we’ve seen of roboute so does he
Issue is if the emperor treats Angron poorly or ignores him with roboute being so close it may turn roboute from the imperium
Keep up the good work @Naerina, I could hear you narrate 40K Theories all day.
I am very happy to see this video, becasue it was also my question, when I learned that Angron and Guilliman landed not so far away from each other. I am sure of two things if they met like this: Guilliman would for sure help Angron with revolt, second, even if he found him after BN, Angron would not fall to Chaos, becasue if his friends were still alive, his mentall state would be much better
the thing about angron is that his writing is contrived enough to where if literally anything else didnt go the way it did he wouldnt have become a traitor
Honestly love his tragedy but hate his story,many of the people involved like eldar and emps are dumbed down to make it work
@@sokratikas Especially the Emperor. We see the Eldar screw up often. to the tune of:
Rando Farseer: "But it averts this one attack on my craftworld in 150 years!"
Eldrad: "And did you look at what happens 200 years from now?"
Rando Farseer: "Oh no!"
Eldrad: "This. This is why I can't stand jumped up children playing Seer."
Here's another possibility... what if Guilleman had found Angron before he himself had been reunited with the Emperor and his own Ultramarine Legion?
Guilleman already had his own small, space faring Empire of a few dozen or so worlds. Ultramar was a thing long before the Emperor found him.
The possibility exists that Guiliman at some point would have had Cawl look into the butcher's nails, if there's anyone other then the emperor that might have been able to do something about them it would be him.
The issue is he’d die if removed a certain eldar makes that point mute
Guilliman would teleport Angron to only inform him of an alliance to free his world of barbaric acts and explaining he is his brother then proceed to launch an Ultramar strike force with him and Angron back to the battlefield flanking and obliterating their foes.
Just tossing in a few thoughts, this is an intriguing video.
1. I don't think there's much signs that show many of the Nucerian Slaves bearing the Butcher's Nails themselves, as from the few characters we do see involved in the revolt, none of them seem to bear any of the signs of suffering from the pain engines, i.e. facial ticks, snarls, twitching. I think the majority were probably regular humans, as it seems The Nails were a special form of punishment, as shown in Slave of Nuceria.
2. I don't think Angron would allow for the replication of The Nails if he's on good terms with his legion and The Imperium at large. Again, this plays more into Slave of Nuceria, and what we see of Angron's thoughts, but I got the impression that Angron knew what pain the Nails would cause, and pushed them onto his sons as a form of ruining them to spite The Emperor. If he isn't as outright hostile towards The Golden Tyrant and The Imperium at large, I think even if he didn't care for The World Eaters, he wouldn't be motivated to make them suffer under the effects of The Pain Engines. Doubly so, if he has surviving gladiators from Nuceria, who've seen the horrors those machines represent, and would likely not want to see anything from the High Riders ever become so prolific again.
Great video otherwise! Makes me wonder at a world where I could call the Avenging Bean Counter brother, but, I suppose that's the crux of any good fantasy.
One addendum: butcher nails could be removed from humans and space marines with tolerate margin of danger. Angrons primarch biology make the removal impossible (or rather more and more impossible with passing time). In fact right from Nuceria removing of butcher nails from Angron was possible, but Emperor preferred living primarch with nails (maybe in hope of him overcoming them) than possibly death one due to procedure.
Emps don’t remove them then because Angron refused to be any where near him
This would turn Lorgar's assault on Ultramar into the greatest WWE match in history.
Announcer: "Oh no, Erebus and his armored choir boys are brutalizing innocent civilians, who can save them!?"
*Jimmy Hendrix's national anthem starts playing*
"Oh, by the Emperor, its Kharn the Mighty with the steel chair!"
If RG had found Angron pre nails, man that bromance would've been something straight out of a romance novel. RG would've outright saved Angron from slavery, take the dudes angron was close with. Upon reuniting with his Legion, Angron would've been the best leader. Taking away the pain of his sons and brothers alike. He may have even rivalled Sanguinius and Horus in popularity amongst the Primarchs. Post nails, well its difficult to say because it could've been either of 2 ways. Angron says he wants to die as per canon, and he's gonna go down swinging. 1. RG and Emps send him and the world eaters to the bloodiest conflicts to satiate his nails and the desire to die, stays loyal because they accede to his request. Ultimately resulting in Angron finally going down during the Heresy, either fighting lorgar in the shadow crusade, or even replacing Sanguinius during the eternity gate fight and finally going down after kicking the shit out of the traitors and their demons (kingsman church scene style) from all the wounds he sustains. 2. He goes traitor as per canon because he feels like the eternal banzai charge he was ordered to go on wasnt enough to finally end his life.
I don't think Guilliman would have gotten to Angron before the Nails, but I also wonder how different things could have been. The Emperor didn't intervene at Nuceria; He simply seemed accepting that He had found another Primarch, and after reclaiming him, was content to let Nuceria roll how it would. He seemed to have already made arrangements with that government, and saw little reason to change things up, when He didn't have to, to get what He wanted. Guilliman, on the other hand, might have more objected to the planet operating as it did, were it to become part of his empire, so I feel he might've been more willing to help Angron, and his people, fight their oppressors, and fix things. I don't know how important a change that would really have been, with the deleterious effects of the Nails, but I still feel it might've been better.
More than that, though, Guilliman wasn't playing tbe same game as the Emperor, and didn't know as much. At least certain sources would say the Emperor did what He did with Angron intentionally; He knew some Primarchs would rebel, there would be the Heresy, and He only had limited influence on which of His pawns would stay loyal. If Angron was already living on borrowed time, and treating him like crap would push him to be one of the traitors, which could keep a "better" Primarch from falling in his place, that was fine with the Master of Mankind. Guilliman, however, wasn't aware of all this 5th dimensional stuff, Chaos, and the Great Game the "gods" were all playing, so he might've tried harder to save Angron, his warriors, and his world. He mightve tried harder to extract the Nails, and let Angron die better, were it necessary, since he wasn't an old maid dud card, like he was in the Emperor's game with Chaos. Since Guilliman was in the dark on so much of these events, and not as detached, and calculating, as his Father, I think things could have been very different, even if Angron had ended up actually dying, or something.
Great video as always. Thanks!
The Chaos gods never intended to kill the Primarchs, the Primarchs are Chaos beings to the Chaos gods, they always intended and assumed they would get them all back.
No, the Primarchs are destilled psychic energy humanity itself, the Chaos gods laid claim to it, the Emperor tricked them and took back what belonged to mankind in first place.
Angron just needs to tell the Blood Ravens that his Butchers Nails is an ancient artifact that's priceless.
He won't even realize they are gone.
I think it would also be reasonable to think that Guilliman would help his brother in his rebellion and crush the slave masters. This would definitely solidify a relationship between the two.
Fun thought this might actually save two primarchs because there’s no way that Guilliman wouldn’t try and find a way to remove the nails and knowing he wouldn’t be able to do that on his own he’d probably ask some of his brothers for help. Now obviously the first thought is vulkan as the most skilled artificer in the imperium (possibly even including the emperor) but even with him they would need to figure out exactly how the nails were adapting and interacting with the primarch brain and for that I imagine no other person than perturabo. Now imagine what that would do for Perty two of his brothers coming to him and asking him personally for technical help to save another one of his brothers I imagine that right there would be the recognition needed to keep him from betraying the imperium .he’d probably still have issues with the emperor but he’d probably be more hesitant to turn on his brothers
Awesome video you should do a video on what would have happened if Ferrus kill Fulgrim and survived the drop site massacre.
i haven't been on this channel for awhile! i like this new narrator!
Angron never stopped being a slave. First to the Nucerian nobles as a gladiator, then to the emperor as a general but no less a slave, and finally, he is a slave to Khorne. Ironically, if he had sided with the loyalists during the heresy, he would have taken his destiny into his own hands and should he stick around or return during the indomitus crusade, he would have had a great deal of power over the rest of the imperium as he's a fucking primarch, as do guilliman and the lion do now. If Angron had played the long game, he could have become one of the masters and no longer a slave
I don’t know if Guilliman could’ve ever healed Angron but he would’ve exhausted every option trying
I’ve said it 100 times, but Guilliman’s best trait is not his empire building abilities, governance, trade, or any other ability he has.
He is the only Primarch we know of that had a mother and father as role models and guardians. The vast majority of the primarchs are jacked up psychologically in one way or the other, and even the “well-adjusted” primarchs (like the Lion or Dorn) are so because their personalities are so reserved. Only Guilliman got the benefit of a mother and father.
He got what the others were denied: A family.
Dorn had a family