As Captain Janeway once put it: “Time travel. Since my first day on the job as a Starfleet captain I swore I'd never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes - the future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me a headache.”
I was going to watch your video. I really was. But I got hit by a 5-hour ad for The Lego Movie 2. Sure, I could hit "Skip ad". But that just feels like giving up, you know?
Vandal Savage is a great character - and the way his story line was wrapped up in the Justice League ("hereafter") was just great - it took the end of the world and 30,000 years but finally he got his head together - that was a great twist.
My preferred theory is that the two outcomes of Savage's efforts created a sort of twinned causal timeline situation: The existence of Timeline A (the regular DCAU) causes Timeline B (Vandal's initial sending the laptop back), and then the existence of Timeline B (Savage wins) causes the existence of Timeline A (the JL goes back in time to stop Savage). So both near the divergence point and the "present" of the episode are sort of fourth-dimensional nexus points where the two timelines are sort of twisted together and flicker back and forth. Neither exists without the other.
In a universe with infinite spatial dimensions in all directions (as it is hypothesized that could very well be the case) if one had the ability to instantaneously travel to any point in that infinite X,Y,Z space, it is possible that they could travel to a world completely identical to our world last week and a literal infinite worlds that would be functionally indistinguishable from it as well. In a multiverse with infinite alternate universes, the same thing is true. In a multiverse with infinite timelines propagated from every choice made be it past or future (the present doesn't exist beyond that of a philosophical construct... just as "cold" and "darkness" don't actually exist) the same is true there as well. This also means that in a multiverse that truly is spatially, temportally, and dimensionally infinite, if you were to take your super advanced teleporting ship to one of the worlds that are identical to last week, there would be a functionally identical set of infinite timelines and parallel universes where you did the same. Because of this, in a truly mathematically infinite multiverse with infinite parallel timelines AND spatial axes, there is no practical difference between multiversal, spatial , or temporal travel (except maybe the time it takes for spatial travel, because yikes). This also means that there are an infinite number of all characters you see. Not just an infinite number of close-but-not-quite “tangent” characters (New 52 Supes, DCAU Supes, Golden Age Supes, Red Sun Supes, etc) but an infinite number of functionally identical characters as well. If this model turns out to actually exist (as many theoretical physicists believe it may), there are an infinite number of both tangent and identical versions of yourself out there! So, at the end of the day, while this kind of theorizing is fun, it can lead down a fairly deep (and kind of depressing) road where you end up pondering your own existential existence in a vast nothingness populated by an infinite number of yourself and others where, free-will doesn’t seem to matter anymore if in all realities you make all choices….. Wait, where was I? Um… I think I’m going to go sit down and pore over the practical implications of aleph-null for a while and then give up and re-read Crisis on Infinite Earths with some hot cocoa.
I think the flaw here is the "2 laptops" theory. I don't believe there WAS a 2nd laptop, at least, not in WW 2. I think what we see is actually the result of a few different attempts at time travel. We know that one flaw of the Time Machine is that it doesn't allow someone to travel back to a time (or seemingly, cross realities) in which they already exist. It's strange that the "Savage Time" isn't JUST one where Savage won WW2, but also where his present-day regime was never contested (or assisted...) by a strange alien visitor, a super-speed police scientist, a Green lantern, a Martian, and/or a Thanagarian Spy. In this New World, no one ever got a green lantern ring, or access to the speed force, and there's no telling what Savage had done with any aliens that world had encountered (Such as Supes, J'onn, and Shiara. Also, seems the Imperium and its forces never got a foothold on this Earth...). So, not only did Savage tell his past self how to win WW2, but also how to deal with the Present-Day Justice League before they were ever heroes. Let's sit on that for a minute as we move on... I believe that the time machine has a secondary flaw, one not verbally suggested, but seems likely based on its presence in both timelines: Time cannot be changed without the agent of change being present in both the "old" timeline AND the "new" one. Even if the "new" one isn't used to "keep" the timeline changed, it prevents the paradox of why would Savage build a time machine if he already ruled the world. So not only did PAST!Savage receive instructions on how to win the war and deal with the League, but how to make the time machine, too! So, it's starting to look like the (original) sequence of events is something like this: Savage played a minor role in WW2, but never did anything much with it. As time passes, he tries to take over the world one country at a time, first by marrying a Kaznian princess. However, when he tries to blackmail the world with Kaznia's weapons, he's stopped by the League. All subsequent attempts at global conquest are thwarted by the league or their contemporaries. He begins to realize that WW2 was his last, best chance to achieve his goals (as stated in the episode), which is when he decides to start trying to build a time machine. Even though Savage is immortal, he doesn't exactly have all the time in the world to work on such a device (The legion of Superheores would eventually see to that). Also, it takes him longer to build a time machine that anyone else, because he CAN'T test it himself, as he's existed since pre-history! He probably went through dozens of iterations over hundreds of years, only to figure out he had it the first time, just with the flaw that he himself couldn't go through time. So then he goes back to that early design and starts testing things, only to find flaw #2: Time won't change (or stay changed) without the agent of change (the time machine) being present in both timelines. This is getting too long and giving me a headache, so I'll skip a few logic steps and jump right to it: After multiple failed attempts, Savage sends his early-2000's (Present) version a laptop telling him everything he needs to do. Present Savage is to build a Time Machine, send back another laptop to his 1940's self, and give 1940's!Savage instructions on how to win the war, deal with the league, and build a new time machine in the "present" so that the new timeline will stay stabilized. This way, he doesn't have to deal with a thousand years of failure and frustration, and he can get right to it. Or at least... that what Future!Savage WANTED his past selves to think. I believe that the Future!Savage who gave Present!Savage the ability to time travel was the same one we see in "Hereafter". That Savage had destroyed the world, and wanted to make things right. He knew the league would never trust him, nor would his younger, rasher, more power-hungry selves listen to reason. Therefore, he carefully crafted a narrative and series of event that would not only ensure his continued defeats, but allow Superman to know that time travel is within Savage's purview, and allow Superman to think that traveling back in time to fix things would be HIS idea, not Savage's (Because Supes coming forward in time already happened, but balked at the idea that Savage had a working time machine and eventually wandered off and died, so Savage needs to prevent THAT, too). And it works: Present!Savage sends his laptop back in time at ironically JUST the right moment to ensure that Superman and the league would end up in a changed world (because that's when FUTURE!Savage told him to send it). With a time machine there (how convenient), they're able to go back in time and fix things. Armed with the knowledge of how dangerous Savage is, they put double the effort into taking him down whenever he shows up, and also know that he has a time machine, which, strangely, he never seems able to use anymore (because FUTURE!Savage sent PRESENT!Savage a design that only works once...). Then, when Superman shows up in the future in Hereafter, he's amenable to using Savage's time machine because he's already used it before, resulting in a stable timeline that results in the rest of the series and the Legion of Superheroes' timeline, and Savage himself... at peace. ...I just spent an hour typing a response to a 12 minute video about time travel in cartoons wtf am I doing with my life?! ;_:
Imagine a Telltale-esque game where at a certain point you meet up with an alternate version of yourself based on a random choice made in the start of the game. A version very acheivable if you had picked it originally.
In my mind, they just "Back to the Future"d it, meaning that Earth DCAU was erased, making Earth Savage (where he won WW2) Then the JL fix it creating a copy of Earth DCAU (DCAUa if you will) that has only the minor difference that Steve knew Diana. Regarding the STAS WW reference, that could have been in DCAUa. MAYBE the Justice League in this episode are a variant of the real JL, and at the end of this episode they create the DCAU weve been following this whole time!
Great video! This feels really well studied. Maybe because it’s just a longer video. I think that this is an alternate timeline that was created. I don’t think it’s an entirely new earth that was created.
That's pretty much where I'm at with the Fatal Five film too. I'm just going to go with close enough, like I do with most comics when things don't quite line up
With savage dissappearing, if we go back to what Owl Man said, "one where you make the choice, one where you didn't" the future savage with the destoryed earth still exists, the one we saw dissappeared but there could also be one where Savage killed superman upon his arival or Savage never sent superman back so there is a timeline where Savage and supey are just bro-ing out.
Another thing you have to consider is that in the once and future thing, time travel is apparently a thing that can destroy the entire universe if done improperly, so who knows how that throws a wrench in these plans.
4yrs later My idea/Theory: It's Both, the events that happened and the moment the JL actually Gets to WW2 they actually beat him at that moment The Time they got there from though, is a Time that they failed to get there originally But, thanks to them going back through the "Time gate" They Caused a Quantum Causality event, suddenly in the Past they appear and stop Savage While on the Timeline of the Vandal Savage ruling Earth timeline is still there but left in a Causality Time loop
The problem is that there are multiple types of alternate worlds - Marvel's What If? is one time, Earth-2 is another Elseworlds is yet a third. The real question is to first determine how Time Travel works in a particular universe, then determine any paradoxes. As for myself, I tend to think there are two divergent realities - one where the JLA was able to go back and repair Savage's changes and one where they didn't, and those are what we saw in these episodes. As to why we saw those two and the JLA seemed to move between them... That's outside my pay grade.
It's an alternate timeline but it doesn't end, just splits off into a seperate universe. The time travel isn't fixed, it's just that they don't comment on any farther reaching changes to the timeline because, as far as they can tell, there aren't any. Timeline 1 is DCAU. Timeline 2 is created by Savage sending the laptop back in time, which retcons history but the League members in the episode escape their own erasure because of either the ring protecting them or some other stuff. Hell, maybe you just can't retcon out a demi-god that easily and combining Diana being present and the Green Lantern ring is what caused it. They arrive in the altered timeline after their timeline is erased. Assuming that the DCAU is its own multiverse and not a part of the mainline multiverse, that would make the DCAU the Metaverse of this multiverse, and thus it means that when people start screwing with it trying to make changes, it does fight back. Hence how even in an altered timeline, Thomas Wayne and Martha Kane meet, get married and do a bit of the old in-out in-out, resulting in Bruce Wayne. The other heroes might also be present in this timeline, but never matter enough to change things. Perhaps Superman went the way of Flashpoint and is in a basement somewhere, the Amazons were all killed or never opened contact (same with Atlantis), the Green Lantern Corps went "nope, no lanterns from Nazi planet", so on and so forth. Then, when the League time jumps into the past, _that_ timeline is erased for the DCAU's primary universe, but still exists over in some other alternate universe where the League never even came back in time. As does the _original_ DCAU. DC Comics canon now is that those "erased" timelines exist in the multiverse, but the Metaverse is the main one and just kinda spits them out into new universes where they weren't erased. A universe where Flashpoint didn't happen, Dr. Manhattan didn't slip in and screw it up and New Earth canon reigns. A universe where Rebirth didn't happen and the New 52 still exists. A universe for each universe destroyed in Crisis on Infinite Earths where the crisis didn't happen (this is Post-Convergence obviously). So, when they jump back again, Nazi Metaverse is shot out into its own universe where the League didn't go back and fix the Metaverse. Then after that, they travel forward to their own time and live in the altered, but mostly the same, DCAU Metaverse that they were always in, while a DCAU Universe where Savage never screwed with the timeline exists in the Multiverse now as does a Nazi DCAU Universe (Earth-X, as it's usually known). The timeline appears to be a fixed timeline because it's just rolling with the punches and changing every time, so by the time it ends, they've altered the past just enough to be noticable, but not enough for them to question how much damage they did. This is basically just adapting the Metaverse concept from Doomsday Clock and the reborn infinite multiverse (rather than the limited one that existed from Infinite Crisis to Convergence) from Convergence into explaining this whole thing. They only ever time traveled through their own universe, the DCAU Metaverse, but every time the timeline changed the old timeline was jettisoned into a new universe. This allows for it to appear to be a fixed timeline, them to not have duplicates, and still be only time travel. The changes to the timeline still happened in the timeline of the Metaverse, but are unable to be seen as changes by everyone who wasn't actively involved in it. If someone went back in time to before the League went back in time, they'd still see everything happen the same way it did, right before the ripple effect erased them, then brought them back without them ever noticing their own erasure. The DCAU has also established that reckless abuse of time travel causes time to start crumbling, presumably outwards both forward and back from the focal point of whoever stuck their dick in the time stream this time. So, if said hypothetical time traveler then tried to stop the League from time traveling in order to prevent this whole debacle, the universe would probably start crumbling into a sea of meanwhiles and neverweres until either it imploded and Lucifer and Michael threw a fit over someone screwing up their hard work while Destiny weeps silently into his book, or else someone else then goes back-forwards in time to prevent the hypothetical time meddler from screwing up the timeline.
I have no idea what you meant but this is what I came up with: said extra's guts do not react well to mustard and his choice of condiment results in his really stinking up the restroom in the eating establishment, such that when the JL end up there prior to the beginning of The Savage Time the place is so disgusting Batman insists he needs to find somewhere else to take a shit, so in the diverging timeline the JL don't end up flying away protected by GL's ring until unbeknownst to them it is too late and they are affected by Vandal's time-meddling. Boom
It's just Back to the future kind of time travel, maybe with key points or resistive timeline and no indicators. They crossed universes while their own timeline vanished. The Windmill Party Winner Savage timeline replaced it just like the Lone Savage timeline was replaced by a better future in Hereafter. They changed the past but not enough that it would be drastically different from the original. The resistive timeline is when the timeline doesn't like to change so if the change is not significant it won't be drastically different. Key points are similar, but it can be drastically different only that key things will most likely happen (like Batman being born and losing his parents). Also in this timeline, Savage always sends back a laptop and the Justice League always travels back. Which is why they were absent in the future. Or they always disappear.
In DC canon, there's a difference between parallel Universes and pocket Universes. I think this may be what we're seeing here. The idea behind pocket Universes is that they're deliberately manufactured, cut off from the normal timeline. The Time Trapper's whole schtick is that he has the power to cleave off his own version of reality which he can mold as he sees fit. My understanding of it is that pocket Universes aren't part of the Multiverse, so they don't create alternate version of themselves. They're a one-off generated from a single strand of the regular Multiverse.
Keep in mind that the Lantern's ring can do almost anything, i.e. Batman hypthosizes that if the wearer believed themselves to be blind, the ring would make them so enforced by thier own will power. Maybe this would account for the ring protecting them when it normally could not. So much so it would've done some time shift protection shenanigans from the first moment John would be affected by it if perhaps the ring can supercede a strict cause to effect law of time we see in the episode and uhhhhh I've confused myself at this point 🙃
I got it. I figured out a theory of my own. You know how Future Bruce said in "The Once and Future Thing " that the timeline was "polluted"? Maybe that's how Time Travel outcomes work in the DCAU. If a change is made in the past the future will start getting affected but will try remaining the same but has minor differences that coexisting with other things. As an example imagine I am from the present and go back to the past to stop Kennedy from getting assassinated. Then I come back to the present and decided to open a history book. I may start to find contradictory stuff within that history book saying Kennedy was both dead and alive. Depending on how big the change is will only affect the timeline in minor ways. As an example in "Savage Time" when the JL came back to the present Batman was waiting for them and there was an active Time Machine when in reality both things should probably not be there but they were there as a result of the "pollution". And the way the Green Lantern ring worked is probably that it shielded the JL from time pollution.
Doctor Who described it best with "Wibbly wobbly, Timey wimey". Think of it as time and space is very elastic, you can affect time and space at will, and things will stretch to fit(or not) depending on the needs of the story
They really are because if I want to the flash, I always have to follow the recon origin where Eobard kills Barry's mother and his father takes the credit for the murder and the rule is that Eobard has to come first before Hunter Zolomon.
So this is what I think happened. Savage sent back a laptop to his past self, instantly creating an alternate timeline. Then, the world dictator savage built a time machine, (just to be safe because he was unsure of the rules of time travel,) but didn't send the laptop back yet. He also didn't have it set to the correct date yet. The justice league went back, fixed everything, creating a third timeline, almost the same as the first, but now Steve Trevor knows Wonder Woman.
I haven't seen the episode in a while, but personally, I just thought this timeline was like Back to the Future Part 2; the timeline is dependent on other timelines. The Justice League are Doc and Marty (the perspective characters who see the two or three different timelines), Vandal is Biff (stays an asshole no matter the continuity though his power increases depending on whether the protagonists can stop him after he receives an item from the future), Steve Trevor is Jennifer (the love interest who stays constant throughout), and alternate Batman is Loraine (the person who was probably thankful to be erased from existence in favor of a somewhat happier counterpart). On a technical level, the protagonists' presence in the narrative doesn't make sense but is implied to be held together by the idea that it's all one-timeline being experienced by the protagonists and is therefore dependent only on them. On another note, does this mean you're going to make a separate video for the "Once and Future Thing" timeline and how that time travel works? Or the Batman Beyond/Static Shock crossover?
This explains how in BTAS's Gotham, even during the Fox Kids days.. that even though it was mostly presented to look like the 1950's (Technology wise).. that some stuff stood out oddly. Like the Clock King's quantum tech.
When the machine started to vibrate, It pulsates in both main and alternate entry points. And the Lantern ring was on way before the time incursion began.
i think that the idea that you should of looked into is something called "Cross-Time Travel" in which you go from your point in time and arrive in a alternate timelines past and that Green Lantern Ring and energy isn't affected by time travel/cross time travel thus anyone inside the energy will remain with their memories intact. my theory atleast.
the two laptops could of fused together due to that they are from two different timelines that cross the time-streams into one timeline making them one and the same which the ghost busters always warn use not to cross the streams or face dire consequences
While it’s crazy to point to dragon ball z for this here’s my understanding: When you go back in time you’re going to an alternate universe. When you “fix” the timeline, you’re changing their timeline, not yours. However when you return another alternate universe opens up and someone probably traveled to your universe as well. So while it corrected the other timeline, yours did to in a similar fashion. There is a hole in this theory but this is the best I got
Ok what if Jon Stewart's ring was given the command of "keep us safe, together, etc." or something along those lines. The ring is capable of pulling off a lot of feats. What if time was changing them and the ring was just like "nah fam, we're close to the 'epicenter' of the blast, imma just bring us to the new timeline or whatever"?
It's not fixed... If WW met Steve before Savage time travelled, he wouldn't have recognised her, he may not even be alive. At the end of the episode they're in a new timeline where they fought in WWII. Timeline 1: WWII goes as we know it, Vandal Savage time travels. Timeline 2: Savage wins WWII with technology from Timeline 1, he conquers the world, rebel Batman meets the Justice League from Timeline 1 and they time travel too. Timeline 3: Savage tries to win the war with technology from Timeline 1, Justice League arrives from the future and stop him before returning to their time, war goes on as we know it, Justice League returns from the past, WW meets with Steve Trevor again. Later on Superman is sent to the future by Toymaker, Deadshot kills Batman, Savage destroys the world and spends 30000 years alone before meeting with Superman again, Superman is sent back to the past. Timeline 4: Superman returns from the future, saves Batman from being killed and stops Savage from destroying the world, the rest of the show goes on.
What do you mean? We see the timeline being replaced by a new one in all of this cases. I'm literally just stating what happens in the show. Saying that it's "fixed" and that the timeline where Savage won is an alternate dimension is an assumption based on nothing.
For me it's an alternate timeline more of a Timeline remnant :We know the Speed Force does exist And doesn't like when someone change the timeline and create paradoxes , so the Speed was able to use The Flash's speed Force aura and Green Lantern energy field to send them in that timeline so the league would always go to the past and fix the Timeline
I'll posit that. just as timelines diverge based on differing choices and events, they can also converge again, at least for brief moments, leading to events 're-linking' and possibly even re-combining if the final outcomes are the same. Let's take two Spider-Man worlds. One where Uncle Ben lives instead of Aunt May, and the standard. Inside the two Parker homes, Young Peter discusses his day with Ben, who he felt safe to tell his secret, and in the other, he struggles to keep fragile Aunt May from figuring anything out. But when he goes outside in both worlds, he sees the Vulture in the distance, and ducks into the same hiding place to change and pursue, even saying the same words as he does. For that brief moment, these alternates re-converge, and do so as well with any other Peters in the exact same set-up, before moving off again. But now we have a timeline created by time travel, and in which time travel is utilized to undo this effect. Steve and Vandal are far back enough that they are still aware of these events. Batman was fully engulfed in their consequences. But Vandal's own methods of meddling left the new timeline in flux, enough so that it was 'soft', and not yet the firm history. If anything, Green Lantern's ring, designed to do whatever it can to protect him, drew him and those within his energies to a point in local time where they could undo these changes. Armored Resistance Bats dwelled in a kind of DCAU-1A.
You're overthinking it Basically the OG timeline didn't involve Savage or the Justice League being main players in WWII Then Vandal Savage sends a laptop back in time to himself to ensure victory, rippling the timestream which the Justice League minus Batman are protected from because of Green Lantern and whatever shenanigans. The Justice League travel back in time creating a third timeline where they did go back in time and fight WWII which is why Steve Trevor recognizes Wonder Woman. No need to add Alternate Universes in the mix.
I know that the comics and the DCAU have different rules, but in the comic book Flashpoint, we learn that Time Travel doesn't create another earth, but each earth has it's own fixed timeline. This may have been retconned in Rebirth, since I think Batman got to meet Flashpoint Batman, but I didn't read that story, so if I'm wrong, anyone can feel free to correct me.
I am writing a comic that involves a lot of time travel and even to me this is a confusing mess. It’s like they didn’t even know what their own intentions were with this story.
when messing around with the time travel stuff the thing i have always wondered is this, any changes that happen on earth, shouldn't really affect the whole galaxy, yes i know the who flashpoint thing but i feel like that story was just designed to take the butterfly affect and amp it up to depression inducing levels. the time change it self shouldn't really affect the Green Lantern corp but the only change would be who from earth becomes a green lantern. maybe there was another green lantern in Savage's future but was killed by Vandal's enforcers
I want to coin the term "place holder timeline" a place-holder-timeline only exists for a (relatively) short period in the space time continuum and can be eradicated and therefore helps to bridge the concepts of a fixed and a Dynamic timeline... So to answer your question... this specific timeline would not be a branch on the multiverse tree but rather a falling leave in midair.
It’s simple, a time Paradox was caused so to ensure that the universe doesn’t rip itself apart, time itself preserved the timeline of Vandal winning and sent the League there so they can go back and resume the loop. The twist is not the whole line is preserved, just the necessary segments. The CW Flash show, though very wrong when it comes to real and fictional science most of the time, actually thought of this with their “time remnant” concept. So yes, no need to create a completely new and separate universe in the Hypertime Multiverse, just an artificially preserved one. It’s likely the alternate timeline did got erased as soon as the league travelled as the timeline was no longer needed to preserve existence.
Nice video, but honestly i think bruce timm and his crew just didn't thought about all this, they just did some cartoons, and as you said they don't need to be so complicated, and for me as long as they have this great story telling and soul it's what really matters. And i'm still waiting the earth 12 video
@@dcauwatchtower looing forward to the one for Versus the Fatal Five, though honestly I think you all have covered the likely general arguments from just the reaction alone
There are four things I can really say here: 1 - I still think time travel shouldn't really be able to erase alternate universes, as we see in the Terminator films. Sure is concerning on a Multiversal level though, since Nazi-ruled worlds are a huge thorn all around, and liberating them doesn't ever always reap beneficial rewards. 2 - The Worlds Collide movie should have become a reality. It, together with "The Once and Future Thing" two-parter, would have put the set-ups of DCAU interdimensional hijinks in full circle, 3 - We sorely needed Vandal Savage back in Justice League Unlimited. Him having last appeared in JL's "Maid of Honor" begs a lot of questions on his current state in the DCAU, and no, his alternate "Hereafter" self doesn't count. 4 - Speaking of "Hereafter" Savage, mayhaps he wasn't erased, but rather got sent to another one of those cosmos-stability promoting/protecting high councils to receive retribution for his damning actions.
I perceive a paradox, if a theory of yours is correct at least. You postured in a previous video the speculation that Luthor could be Brainiac5's ancestor but whom do we know that he ever had consorted with, or if it's meant to happen after EOS (end of series) did he come back, because either the anti-life equation killed him and Darkseid or they got hurled into anther dimension. Just speculating on a speculation; my mind doesn't let go of something if it bugs me.
I have a different theory: you all care about this stuff way more than the actual writers and the original work is flawed, but you can believe in whatever theory you like if it helps you sleep at night.
Yes, but in that very Harry Potter book, Rowling broke her own rule by having them save Buckbeak, even though he wasn't already saved. It's supposed to work where everything you do during your time travelling happened in your timeline anyways because the future you were there, e.g. Harry getting hit with the rock that Hermione later throws, the Harry that saves them, etc. People complain about the abortion that is the Cursed Child breaking the time travel rules, but Rowling already did that in the only book it was used in. Cursed Child is terrible without that.
An epiphany came to me a while back: What if future DCAU Vandal Savage was responsible for directing the meteorite that exposed his younger self in the distant past? And what if the meteorite wasn’t a meteorite at all? What if it was manufactured? What if it came directly from the future? Think about it, the bread crumbs are all there for present day or future Vandal Savage to figure this out and make it happen. First, Vandal tests out his black hole portal to see what can be sent through it (The Savage Time), then later on his past self invests his time in railgun technology that directs meteorites and asteroids to use as projectiles (Maid of Honor). Finally, he invests his interests in power that will inadvertently affect the Earth's gravitational field (Hereafter). These components could later on be used to acquire meteorites and asteroids from any time or place in the DCAU. I'm probably overthinking things like I usually do with subjects such as this, however, the DCAU incarnation of Vandal Savage fascinates me.
Alternate timelines come from the past of a specific being change alternate universes come from two separate decisions being taken in one universe created by Divergent with University and hereafter it was the same universe but the timeline is being changed
I already commented, but now I have a new theory: Hitler's Brain! No joke, it revolves around the story's briefly-frozen Fuhrer (Also wondering if that crude cryo didn't damage his drug-addled brain just a little further, but I digress). Now, the first part assumes that DC's Nazi mad scientists did things to their Hitler to try and amp up his survival like Zola did in various versions of Marvel. Maybe not the same things, but longevity and revival are somewhere in the mix. Next, this increased his sick magnetism, personality-wise, perhaps keeping him alive when disposing of him would have been the wiser move. So if Hitler is still in those tubes, it is an alternate timeline, with the Nazi leadership still having the option to turn back to him (and hope he didn't remember clearly how he got put in there). As Savage grates on them, they keep Hitler in mind, almost whether they want to or not. But if we get to the end of the war and victory for Savage, he feels free to finally end his frozen rival - then it becomes an alternate universe, and cue the Bat-resistance. For myself, I like to think the other Batman did fade away, if only because one of my time/universe travel bugaboos is characters from events like Flashpoint and Age Of Apocalypse crossing over to live in the main Earth, since their home was the main Earth, just upended by history. Oh, and don't forget the Blackhawks recalled The Savage Time as well.
@Watchtower Database, the thing is... if John Sterert's ring didn't protect the rest of the league from the Quantum change... Savage STILL would have been beaten. Bruce Wayne and his resistence (especially with Shayera Hol, Jonn Jones, Kal El, Mala, Green Lantern Diana, and Hro Talek) would have defeated Vandal Savage And his forces in the present.
No, it depends on the story. In some stories, Timeline A is simply overwritten by Timeline B such that Timeline A no longer exists at all (save for in the memory of the time-travelers), not that they split off into alternate universes.
I think the time machine wasn't really sending anything through time, and instead created a new present and a fake past for that present. That way the JL didn't stop existing, since John's ring protected them from the change. Does this make sense? No? Good. Time travel never does.
Who says it was a fixed timeline? It could just as easily be that history was changed, just not too drastically. Of course there are going to be continuity references *AFTER* the timeline was changed! For it to be a fixed timeline, there would need to be either continuity references from *BEFORE* the League went back in time that they personally remember, or there would be a direct connection from something they experienced in the past that led to the League time-traveling in the first place. Nothing of the sort exists. In fact, we can *prove* that it is not a fixed timeline, since Vandal Savage *did* succeed in changing the timeline, which the League (with their ripple-proof memories) experienced first hand before they went back and changed it to a third timeline. Likewise, Superman was able to go back and change the timeline that originally had Savage wiping out all human life on Earth save for himself. In a fixed timeline, history *cannot* be changed!
You know the savage time being time travel/multiverse is kinda like how Batman year one is canon the main DC universe (before zero hour I think) and canon to the frank miller elseworld with his other dc work with dark knight returns and all star Batman and robin etc till sometime before new 52.....idk I could be wrong
Aren't you paying attention? Six of one, half a dozen of another: Divergent alternate histories or probability worlds ARE universes with each their own vibratory rate, and vice versa. Elseworlds or improbability worlds, alternate realities in contradiction inconsistent with any possible divergence, are not known to have yet appeared in the JLA animated continuity.
Over the past few months all of these clips started appearing on TH-cam and the other night the Crisis on Two Earths clip appeared and I came to the conclusion of an alternate Earth in the Multiverse too. There is one thing though: If Superman corrected the timeline in "Here After", couldn't we look at Savage "fading out of existence" as that version of Savage actually fading out of the main DCAU timeline and into an alternate reality?
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Interesting theory. Could possibly be a different one, or the same one which Savage altered over time. The one thing that'll cause problems though is, which other time travel adventure in the DCAU is on a fixed timeline or which is dynamic timeline.
when it comes down to time travel DC Comics very strict about it.when ever time travel is involed it pretty clear that if you mess with one thing in the past it will screw everything up. case-in-point the flashpoint storyline, Barry Allen travels back in time to save his mother but resulted in the timeline becoming screwed up. by changing that one event it caused a ripple effect through the time stream which resulted in Bruce dying in the place of his parents, superman's rocket crashing in Metropolis to name a few. since the Guardians of the universe would be aware of time-travel they probably made the Green Lantern rings impervious to the Ripple effects and since the Guardians of the Universe imposed a law that no-one could travel to the beginning of time.
Its simple. The Justice League was not affected by the time line chnage because they always traveled back in time. Time has an innate sense ability to keep itself intact. The changes tonthe time line were made by Savage, but only temporarily. Its is what triggers to league to go back, so they had to happen. Same thing with Supermans time travel tonthe future. Savage sending him back was the universes way of correcting itself and getting back to the proper time mine. Anytime a change is made due to the actions of a time traveler, the universe will set up a sequence of events, on a quantum level, to undo those changes. It may take a long time to enact those changes compared to how we perceive time, but to the universe the time between Superman dissappearing and the end of the earth was a small fraction of time. Same thing with the league and ww2.
Owlman by his own explanation has to be wrong though - if there's infinite worlds, with any potential for moving between them, then it is definite that someone (like Owlman) would be succeessful in ending all of the multiverse. We see existing universes, so it is not true. Either that, or it's not infinite.
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Thanks for replying! First off, I just saw your Batman Beyond timeline video. I hope you're doing okay now. That is a true statement, but that analogy also doesn't apply. Basically Owlman's statement and dying words are stating that there's infinite numbers between 2 and 3, but "it (our choices, or here, our numbering system) doesn't matter", because those numbers aren't limited to being between 2.0 and 3.0, so at least one of them must be 4. So his infinity isn't a limit function, it's a set of all possible graphs... That's probably really unclear. I'm not a math student anymore.
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As Captain Janeway once put it: “Time travel. Since my first day on the job as a Starfleet captain I swore I'd never let myself get caught in one of these godforsaken paradoxes - the future is the past, the past is the future, it all gives me a headache.”
Your friendly reminder that Green Lantern hates time travel.
Janeway is arguably the worst Starfleet captain, so of course she'd hate something Starfleet captains deal with on a daily basis.
Topic is about time travel.
See a comment that was posted about 14hrs ago.
But the video was only uploaded like 38 seconds ago. (At least for me)
Woah
I was going to watch your video. I really was.
But I got hit by a 5-hour ad for The Lego Movie 2.
Sure, I could hit "Skip ad". But that just feels like giving up, you know?
Vandal Savage is a great character - and the way his story line was wrapped up in the Justice League ("hereafter") was just great - it took the end of the world and 30,000 years but finally he got his head together - that was a great twist.
Curiously does that mean Vandal still exists in the DCAU?
Or is his ass deleted
Mattie - WE HAVE TO GO!!!
Audience - Where?!?!
Mattie - TO THE FUTURE!!!!
My preferred theory is that the two outcomes of Savage's efforts created a sort of twinned causal timeline situation: The existence of Timeline A (the regular DCAU) causes Timeline B (Vandal's initial sending the laptop back), and then the existence of Timeline B (Savage wins) causes the existence of Timeline A (the JL goes back in time to stop Savage). So both near the divergence point and the "present" of the episode are sort of fourth-dimensional nexus points where the two timelines are sort of twisted together and flicker back and forth. Neither exists without the other.
That breaks my brain
This was not the best video to watch with a headache holy crap
(It's still real good though)
The answer to every question:
“Because it’s Thursday!”
In a universe with infinite spatial dimensions in all directions (as it is hypothesized that could very well be the case) if one had the ability to instantaneously travel to any point in that infinite X,Y,Z space, it is possible that they could travel to a world completely identical to our world last week and a literal infinite worlds that would be functionally indistinguishable from it as well. In a multiverse with infinite alternate universes, the same thing is true. In a multiverse with infinite timelines propagated from every choice made be it past or future (the present doesn't exist beyond that of a philosophical construct... just as "cold" and "darkness" don't actually exist) the same is true there as well.
This also means that in a multiverse that truly is spatially, temportally, and dimensionally infinite, if you were to take your super advanced teleporting ship to one of the worlds that are identical to last week, there would be a functionally identical set of infinite timelines and parallel universes where you did the same.
Because of this, in a truly mathematically infinite multiverse with infinite parallel timelines AND spatial axes, there is no practical difference between multiversal, spatial , or temporal travel (except maybe the time it takes for spatial travel, because yikes).
This also means that there are an infinite number of all characters you see. Not just an infinite number of close-but-not-quite “tangent” characters (New 52 Supes, DCAU Supes, Golden Age Supes, Red Sun Supes, etc) but an infinite number of functionally identical characters as well. If this model turns out to actually exist (as many theoretical physicists believe it may), there are an infinite number of both tangent and identical versions of yourself out there!
So, at the end of the day, while this kind of theorizing is fun, it can lead down a fairly deep (and kind of depressing) road where you end up pondering your own existential existence in a vast nothingness populated by an infinite number of yourself and others where, free-will doesn’t seem to matter anymore if in all realities you make all choices…..
Wait, where was I?
Um… I think I’m going to go sit down and pore over the practical implications of aleph-null for a while and then give up and re-read Crisis on Infinite Earths with some hot cocoa.
There’s a universe where you didn’t make this comment ;)
th-cam.com/video/f-pfLcE5VbE/w-d-xo.html
...Just ignore the nothingness depressiveness mantra and be better off to keep moving forward. Fate wills it, and doing otherwise is an error.
Their Wonder Woman video is indeed worth the watch!
Has a different style compared to their recent content but you'll love it all the same!
I think the flaw here is the "2 laptops" theory. I don't believe there WAS a 2nd laptop, at least, not in WW 2.
I think what we see is actually the result of a few different attempts at time travel. We know that one flaw of the Time Machine is that it doesn't allow someone to travel back to a time (or seemingly, cross realities) in which they already exist. It's strange that the "Savage Time" isn't JUST one where Savage won WW2, but also where his present-day regime was never contested (or assisted...) by a strange alien visitor, a super-speed police scientist, a Green lantern, a Martian, and/or a Thanagarian Spy. In this New World, no one ever got a green lantern ring, or access to the speed force, and there's no telling what Savage had done with any aliens that world had encountered (Such as Supes, J'onn, and Shiara. Also, seems the Imperium and its forces never got a foothold on this Earth...).
So, not only did Savage tell his past self how to win WW2, but also how to deal with the Present-Day Justice League before they were ever heroes. Let's sit on that for a minute as we move on...
I believe that the time machine has a secondary flaw, one not verbally suggested, but seems likely based on its presence in both timelines: Time cannot be changed without the agent of change being present in both the "old" timeline AND the "new" one. Even if the "new" one isn't used to "keep" the timeline changed, it prevents the paradox of why would Savage build a time machine if he already ruled the world. So not only did PAST!Savage receive instructions on how to win the war and deal with the League, but how to make the time machine, too!
So, it's starting to look like the (original) sequence of events is something like this: Savage played a minor role in WW2, but never did anything much with it. As time passes, he tries to take over the world one country at a time, first by marrying a Kaznian princess. However, when he tries to blackmail the world with Kaznia's weapons, he's stopped by the League. All subsequent attempts at global conquest are thwarted by the league or their contemporaries. He begins to realize that WW2 was his last, best chance to achieve his goals (as stated in the episode), which is when he decides to start trying to build a time machine.
Even though Savage is immortal, he doesn't exactly have all the time in the world to work on such a device (The legion of Superheores would eventually see to that). Also, it takes him longer to build a time machine that anyone else, because he CAN'T test it himself, as he's existed since pre-history! He probably went through dozens of iterations over hundreds of years, only to figure out he had it the first time, just with the flaw that he himself couldn't go through time. So then he goes back to that early design and starts testing things, only to find flaw #2: Time won't change (or stay changed) without the agent of change (the time machine) being present in both timelines.
This is getting too long and giving me a headache, so I'll skip a few logic steps and jump right to it: After multiple failed attempts, Savage sends his early-2000's (Present) version a laptop telling him everything he needs to do. Present Savage is to build a Time Machine, send back another laptop to his 1940's self, and give 1940's!Savage instructions on how to win the war, deal with the league, and build a new time machine in the "present" so that the new timeline will stay stabilized. This way, he doesn't have to deal with a thousand years of failure and frustration, and he can get right to it.
Or at least... that what Future!Savage WANTED his past selves to think. I believe that the Future!Savage who gave Present!Savage the ability to time travel was the same one we see in "Hereafter". That Savage had destroyed the world, and wanted to make things right. He knew the league would never trust him, nor would his younger, rasher, more power-hungry selves listen to reason. Therefore, he carefully crafted a narrative and series of event that would not only ensure his continued defeats, but allow Superman to know that time travel is within Savage's purview, and allow Superman to think that traveling back in time to fix things would be HIS idea, not Savage's (Because Supes coming forward in time already happened, but balked at the idea that Savage had a working time machine and eventually wandered off and died, so Savage needs to prevent THAT, too).
And it works: Present!Savage sends his laptop back in time at ironically JUST the right moment to ensure that Superman and the league would end up in a changed world (because that's when FUTURE!Savage told him to send it). With a time machine there (how convenient), they're able to go back in time and fix things. Armed with the knowledge of how dangerous Savage is, they put double the effort into taking him down whenever he shows up, and also know that he has a time machine, which, strangely, he never seems able to use anymore (because FUTURE!Savage sent PRESENT!Savage a design that only works once...). Then, when Superman shows up in the future in Hereafter, he's amenable to using Savage's time machine because he's already used it before, resulting in a stable timeline that results in the rest of the series and the Legion of Superheroes' timeline, and Savage himself... at peace.
...I just spent an hour typing a response to a 12 minute video about time travel in cartoons wtf am I doing with my life?! ;_:
Well crafted! very thoughtful analysis, worth sticking a pin in this to explore at another time...
You've earned an honorary spot on the Database, good thing you already realize there's no tangible reward for this sort've work.
Vandal Sausage
I liked this comment 3 months ago and I still have no idea why it's so damn funny
Imagine a Telltale-esque game where at a certain point you meet up with an alternate version of yourself based on a random choice made in the start of the game. A version very acheivable if you had picked it originally.
In my mind, they just "Back to the Future"d it, meaning that Earth DCAU was erased, making Earth Savage (where he won WW2) Then the JL fix it creating a copy of Earth DCAU (DCAUa if you will) that has only the minor difference that Steve knew Diana. Regarding the STAS WW reference, that could have been in DCAUa. MAYBE the Justice League in this episode are a variant of the real JL, and at the end of this episode they create the DCAU weve been following this whole time!
Because it's Thursday!
Great video! This feels really well studied. Maybe because it’s just a longer video.
I think that this is an alternate timeline that was created. I don’t think it’s an entirely new earth that was created.
That's pretty much where I'm at with the Fatal Five film too. I'm just going to go with close enough, like I do with most comics when things don't quite line up
If It’s An Alternate Timeline, THEN WHEN DID THE LEAGUE FIX EVERYTHING IN THE REGULAR TIMELINE?!?!?!?!
With savage dissappearing, if we go back to what Owl Man said, "one where you make the choice, one where you didn't"
the future savage with the destoryed earth still exists, the one we saw dissappeared but there could also be one where Savage killed superman upon his arival or Savage never sent superman back so there is a timeline where Savage and supey are just bro-ing out.
Another thing you have to consider is that in the once and future thing, time travel is apparently a thing that can destroy the entire universe if done improperly, so who knows how that throws a wrench in these plans.
4yrs later
My idea/Theory: It's Both, the events that happened and the moment the JL actually Gets to WW2 they actually beat him at that moment
The Time they got there from though, is a Time that they failed to get there originally
But, thanks to them going back through the "Time gate"
They Caused a Quantum Causality event, suddenly in the Past they appear and stop Savage
While on the Timeline of the Vandal Savage ruling Earth timeline is still there but left in a Causality Time loop
The problem is that there are multiple types of alternate worlds - Marvel's What If? is one time, Earth-2 is another Elseworlds is yet a third. The real question is to first determine how Time Travel works in a particular universe, then determine any paradoxes. As for myself, I tend to think there are two divergent realities - one where the JLA was able to go back and repair Savage's changes and one where they didn't, and those are what we saw in these episodes. As to why we saw those two and the JLA seemed to move between them... That's outside my pay grade.
I was literally gonna request a video on this episode. it always confuses the crap outta me.
It's an alternate timeline but it doesn't end, just splits off into a seperate universe. The time travel isn't fixed, it's just that they don't comment on any farther reaching changes to the timeline because, as far as they can tell, there aren't any. Timeline 1 is DCAU. Timeline 2 is created by Savage sending the laptop back in time, which retcons history but the League members in the episode escape their own erasure because of either the ring protecting them or some other stuff. Hell, maybe you just can't retcon out a demi-god that easily and combining Diana being present and the Green Lantern ring is what caused it. They arrive in the altered timeline after their timeline is erased. Assuming that the DCAU is its own multiverse and not a part of the mainline multiverse, that would make the DCAU the Metaverse of this multiverse, and thus it means that when people start screwing with it trying to make changes, it does fight back. Hence how even in an altered timeline, Thomas Wayne and Martha Kane meet, get married and do a bit of the old in-out in-out, resulting in Bruce Wayne. The other heroes might also be present in this timeline, but never matter enough to change things. Perhaps Superman went the way of Flashpoint and is in a basement somewhere, the Amazons were all killed or never opened contact (same with Atlantis), the Green Lantern Corps went "nope, no lanterns from Nazi planet", so on and so forth. Then, when the League time jumps into the past, _that_ timeline is erased for the DCAU's primary universe, but still exists over in some other alternate universe where the League never even came back in time. As does the _original_ DCAU.
DC Comics canon now is that those "erased" timelines exist in the multiverse, but the Metaverse is the main one and just kinda spits them out into new universes where they weren't erased. A universe where Flashpoint didn't happen, Dr. Manhattan didn't slip in and screw it up and New Earth canon reigns. A universe where Rebirth didn't happen and the New 52 still exists. A universe for each universe destroyed in Crisis on Infinite Earths where the crisis didn't happen (this is Post-Convergence obviously). So, when they jump back again, Nazi Metaverse is shot out into its own universe where the League didn't go back and fix the Metaverse. Then after that, they travel forward to their own time and live in the altered, but mostly the same, DCAU Metaverse that they were always in, while a DCAU Universe where Savage never screwed with the timeline exists in the Multiverse now as does a Nazi DCAU Universe (Earth-X, as it's usually known). The timeline appears to be a fixed timeline because it's just rolling with the punches and changing every time, so by the time it ends, they've altered the past just enough to be noticable, but not enough for them to question how much damage they did. This is basically just adapting the Metaverse concept from Doomsday Clock and the reborn infinite multiverse (rather than the limited one that existed from Infinite Crisis to Convergence) from Convergence into explaining this whole thing. They only ever time traveled through their own universe, the DCAU Metaverse, but every time the timeline changed the old timeline was jettisoned into a new universe. This allows for it to appear to be a fixed timeline, them to not have duplicates, and still be only time travel.
The changes to the timeline still happened in the timeline of the Metaverse, but are unable to be seen as changes by everyone who wasn't actively involved in it. If someone went back in time to before the League went back in time, they'd still see everything happen the same way it did, right before the ripple effect erased them, then brought them back without them ever noticing their own erasure. The DCAU has also established that reckless abuse of time travel causes time to start crumbling, presumably outwards both forward and back from the focal point of whoever stuck their dick in the time stream this time. So, if said hypothetical time traveler then tried to stop the League from time traveling in order to prevent this whole debacle, the universe would probably start crumbling into a sea of meanwhiles and neverweres until either it imploded and Lucifer and Michael threw a fit over someone screwing up their hard work while Destiny weeps silently into his book, or else someone else then goes back-forwards in time to prevent the hypothetical time meddler from screwing up the timeline.
I like to believe that the divergence point is some extra deciding to put mustard on his butger
I have no idea what you meant but this is what I came up with: said extra's guts do not react well to mustard and his choice of condiment results in his really stinking up the restroom in the eating establishment, such that when the JL end up there prior to the beginning of The Savage Time the place is so disgusting Batman insists he needs to find somewhere else to take a shit, so in the diverging timeline the JL don't end up flying away protected by GL's ring until unbeknownst to them it is too late and they are affected by Vandal's time-meddling. Boom
It's just Back to the future kind of time travel, maybe with key points or resistive timeline and no indicators.
They crossed universes while their own timeline vanished. The Windmill Party Winner Savage timeline replaced it just like the Lone Savage timeline was replaced by a better future in Hereafter. They changed the past but not enough that it would be drastically different from the original. The resistive timeline is when the timeline doesn't like to change so if the change is not significant it won't be drastically different. Key points are similar, but it can be drastically different only that key things will most likely happen (like Batman being born and losing his parents). Also in this timeline, Savage always sends back a laptop and the Justice League always travels back. Which is why they were absent in the future. Or they always disappear.
In DC canon, there's a difference between parallel Universes and pocket Universes. I think this may be what we're seeing here. The idea behind pocket Universes is that they're deliberately manufactured, cut off from the normal timeline. The Time Trapper's whole schtick is that he has the power to cleave off his own version of reality which he can mold as he sees fit. My understanding of it is that pocket Universes aren't part of the Multiverse, so they don't create alternate version of themselves. They're a one-off generated from a single strand of the regular Multiverse.
Keep in mind that the Lantern's ring can do almost anything, i.e. Batman hypthosizes that if the wearer believed themselves to be blind, the ring would make them so enforced by thier own will power. Maybe this would account for the ring protecting them when it normally could not. So much so it would've done some time shift protection shenanigans from the first moment John would be affected by it if perhaps the ring can supercede a strict cause to effect law of time we see in the episode and uhhhhh I've confused myself at this point 🙃
Time travel always guarantees headaches.
I got it. I figured out a theory of my own.
You know how Future Bruce said in "The Once and Future Thing " that the timeline was "polluted"? Maybe that's how Time Travel outcomes work in the DCAU. If a change is made in the past the future will start getting affected but will try remaining the same but has minor differences that coexisting with other things.
As an example imagine I am from the present and go back to the past to stop Kennedy from getting assassinated. Then I come back to the present and decided to open a history book. I may start to find contradictory stuff within that history book saying Kennedy was both dead and alive.
Depending on how big the change is will only affect the timeline in minor ways. As an example in "Savage Time" when the JL came back to the present Batman was waiting for them and there was an active Time Machine when in reality both things should probably not be there but they were there as a result of the "pollution".
And the way the Green Lantern ring worked is probably that it shielded the JL from time pollution.
Th...this is da Australia box? Am I.. uh, down undah now?
How in the fuck
@@shadowwolf8434 Time travel.
My head hurts
Doctor Who described it best with "Wibbly wobbly, Timey wimey". Think of it as time and space is very elastic, you can affect time and space at will, and things will stretch to fit(or not) depending on the needs of the story
They really are because if I want to the flash, I always have to follow the recon origin where Eobard kills Barry's mother and his father takes the credit for the murder and the rule is that Eobard has to come first before Hunter Zolomon.
So this is what I think happened. Savage sent back a laptop to his past self, instantly creating an alternate timeline. Then, the world dictator savage built a time machine, (just to be safe because he was unsure of the rules of time travel,) but didn't send the laptop back yet. He also didn't have it set to the correct date yet. The justice league went back, fixed everything, creating a third timeline, almost the same as the first, but now Steve Trevor knows Wonder Woman.
I haven't seen the episode in a while, but personally, I just thought this timeline was like Back to the Future Part 2; the timeline is dependent on other timelines. The Justice League are Doc and Marty (the perspective characters who see the two or three different timelines), Vandal is Biff (stays an asshole no matter the continuity though his power increases depending on whether the protagonists can stop him after he receives an item from the future), Steve Trevor is Jennifer (the love interest who stays constant throughout), and alternate Batman is Loraine (the person who was probably thankful to be erased from existence in favor of a somewhat happier counterpart). On a technical level, the protagonists' presence in the narrative doesn't make sense but is implied to be held together by the idea that it's all one-timeline being experienced by the protagonists and is therefore dependent only on them.
On another note, does this mean you're going to make a separate video for the "Once and Future Thing" timeline and how that time travel works? Or the Batman Beyond/Static Shock crossover?
This explains how in BTAS's Gotham, even during the Fox Kids days.. that even though it was mostly presented to look like the 1950's (Technology wise).. that some stuff stood out oddly. Like the Clock King's quantum tech.
When the machine started to vibrate, It pulsates in both main and alternate entry points. And the Lantern ring was on way before the time incursion began.
i think that the idea that you should of looked into is something called "Cross-Time Travel" in which you go from your point in time and arrive in a alternate timelines past and that Green Lantern Ring and energy isn't affected by time travel/cross time travel thus anyone inside the energy will remain with their memories intact. my theory atleast.
the two laptops could of fused together due to that they are from two different timelines that cross the time-streams into one timeline making them one and the same which the ghost busters always warn use not to cross the streams or face dire consequences
Time travel: The Bane of Good Writing
In DC comics, parallel earths and parallel timelines are diferent things. Diferent decisions create new timelines. Earths are a vibrational thing.
While it’s crazy to point to dragon ball z for this here’s my understanding:
When you go back in time you’re going to an alternate universe. When you “fix” the timeline, you’re changing their timeline, not yours. However when you return another alternate universe opens up and someone probably traveled to your universe as well. So while it corrected the other timeline, yours did to in a similar fashion. There is a hole in this theory but this is the best I got
I’d rather go by Multiverse theory like in the Dragon Ball franchise, where changing the past makes another universe with one key difference.
Ok what if Jon Stewart's ring was given the command of "keep us safe, together, etc." or something along those lines. The ring is capable of pulling off a lot of feats. What if time was changing them and the ring was just like "nah fam, we're close to the 'epicenter' of the blast, imma just bring us to the new timeline or whatever"?
It's not fixed...
If WW met Steve before Savage time travelled, he wouldn't have recognised her, he may not even be alive.
At the end of the episode they're in a new timeline where they fought in WWII.
Timeline 1: WWII goes as we know it, Vandal Savage time travels.
Timeline 2: Savage wins WWII with technology from Timeline 1, he conquers the world, rebel Batman meets the Justice League from Timeline 1 and they time travel too.
Timeline 3: Savage tries to win the war with technology from Timeline 1, Justice League arrives from the future and stop him before returning to their time, war goes on as we know it, Justice League returns from the past, WW meets with Steve Trevor again. Later on Superman is sent to the future by Toymaker, Deadshot kills Batman, Savage destroys the world and spends 30000 years alone before meeting with Superman again, Superman is sent back to the past.
Timeline 4: Superman returns from the future, saves Batman from being killed and stops Savage from destroying the world, the rest of the show goes on.
What do you mean? We see the timeline being replaced by a new one in all of this cases. I'm literally just stating what happens in the show.
Saying that it's "fixed" and that the timeline where Savage won is an alternate dimension is an assumption based on nothing.
For me it's an alternate timeline
more of a Timeline remnant :We know the Speed Force does exist And doesn't like when someone change the timeline and create paradoxes , so the Speed was able to use The Flash's speed Force aura and Green Lantern energy field to send them in that timeline so the league would always go to the past and fix the Timeline
You guys should do a video on whether or not Snapper Carr became the justice league’s mascot like he did in the comics
In the words of Jon Stewart: _"Everything is Relative"_
I'll posit that. just as timelines diverge based on differing choices and events, they can also converge again, at least for brief moments, leading to events 're-linking' and possibly even re-combining if the final outcomes are the same.
Let's take two Spider-Man worlds. One where Uncle Ben lives instead of Aunt May, and the standard. Inside the two Parker homes, Young Peter discusses his day with Ben, who he felt safe to tell his secret, and in the other, he struggles to keep fragile Aunt May from figuring anything out. But when he goes outside in both worlds, he sees the Vulture in the distance, and ducks into the same hiding place to change and pursue, even saying the same words as he does. For that brief moment, these alternates re-converge, and do so as well with any other Peters in the exact same set-up, before moving off again.
But now we have a timeline created by time travel, and in which time travel is utilized to undo this effect. Steve and Vandal are far back enough that they are still aware of these events. Batman was fully engulfed in their consequences. But Vandal's own methods of meddling left the new timeline in flux, enough so that it was 'soft', and not yet the firm history. If anything, Green Lantern's ring, designed to do whatever it can to protect him, drew him and those within his energies to a point in local time where they could undo these changes.
Armored Resistance Bats dwelled in a kind of DCAU-1A.
Making cartoons more complicated than they have to be you say...I like your style 😎
You're overthinking it
Basically the OG timeline didn't involve Savage or the Justice League being main players in WWII
Then Vandal Savage sends a laptop back in time to himself to ensure victory, rippling the timestream which the Justice League minus Batman are protected from because of Green Lantern and whatever shenanigans.
The Justice League travel back in time creating a third timeline where they did go back in time and fight WWII which is why Steve Trevor recognizes Wonder Woman.
No need to add Alternate Universes in the mix.
Yeah, agreed, it's basically one timeline "overwriting" the other as they are created.
Dc writers solved this time travel problem by making it convenient that vandal savage is immortal
Vandal Savage has always been immortal; that's half of his character.
@@kimberlyterasaki4843 is the other half, sometimes caveman-y?
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Well, you see what had happened was......
Run away!
I know that the comics and the DCAU have different rules, but in the comic book Flashpoint, we learn that Time Travel doesn't create another earth, but each earth has it's own fixed timeline. This may have been retconned in Rebirth, since I think Batman got to meet Flashpoint Batman, but I didn't read that story, so if I'm wrong, anyone can feel free to correct me.
I just finished rewatching season one, it’s still one of my favourite shows and I really like the season finale!
I am writing a comic that involves a lot of time travel and even to me this is a confusing mess. It’s like they didn’t even know what their own intentions were with this story.
when messing around with the time travel stuff the thing i have always wondered is this, any changes that happen on earth, shouldn't really affect the whole galaxy, yes i know the who flashpoint thing but i feel like that story was just designed to take the butterfly affect and amp it up to depression inducing levels.
the time change it self shouldn't really affect the Green Lantern corp but the only change would be who from earth becomes a green lantern. maybe there was another green lantern in Savage's future but was killed by Vandal's enforcers
Ask the guy who went back in time to shoot a dinosaur but wandered off the trail and stepped on a butterfly what happened?
Time is one big ball of Wibbly Wobbly, Timey Wimey stuff. "Tenth Doctor"
I want to coin the term "place holder timeline"
a place-holder-timeline only exists for a (relatively) short period in the space time continuum and can be eradicated and therefore helps to bridge the concepts of a fixed and a Dynamic timeline...
So to answer your question...
this specific timeline would not be a branch on the multiverse tree but rather a falling leave in midair.
It’s simple, a time Paradox was caused so to ensure that the universe doesn’t rip itself apart, time itself preserved the timeline of Vandal winning and sent the League there so they can go back and resume the loop. The twist is not the whole line is preserved, just the necessary segments. The CW Flash show, though very wrong when it comes to real and fictional science most of the time, actually thought of this with their “time remnant” concept.
So yes, no need to create a completely new and separate universe in the Hypertime Multiverse, just an artificially preserved one. It’s likely the alternate timeline did got erased as soon as the league travelled as the timeline was no longer needed to preserve existence.
The only series that does time travel and parallel universes right is a series that doesn't have it at all. (Except time dilation, that's acceptable)
Nice video, but honestly i think bruce timm and his crew just didn't thought about all this, they just did some cartoons, and as you said they don't need to be so complicated, and for me as long as they have this great story telling and soul it's what really matters. And i'm still waiting the earth 12 video
More will it canon.
they's comin
@@dcauwatchtower looing forward to the one for Versus the Fatal Five, though honestly I think you all have covered the likely general arguments from just the reaction alone
@@dcauwatchtower oh lawd
they's comin
There are four things I can really say here:
1 - I still think time travel shouldn't really be able to erase alternate universes, as we see in the Terminator films. Sure is concerning on a Multiversal level though, since Nazi-ruled worlds are a huge thorn all around, and liberating them doesn't ever always reap beneficial rewards.
2 - The Worlds Collide movie should have become a reality. It, together with "The Once and Future Thing" two-parter, would have put the set-ups of DCAU interdimensional hijinks in full circle,
3 - We sorely needed Vandal Savage back in Justice League Unlimited. Him having last appeared in JL's "Maid of Honor" begs a lot of questions on his current state in the DCAU, and no, his alternate "Hereafter" self doesn't count.
4 - Speaking of "Hereafter" Savage, mayhaps he wasn't erased, but rather got sent to another one of those cosmos-stability promoting/protecting high councils to receive retribution for his damning actions.
I perceive a paradox, if a theory of yours is correct at least. You postured in a previous video the speculation that Luthor could be Brainiac5's ancestor but whom do we know that he ever had consorted with, or if it's meant to happen after EOS (end of series) did he come back, because either the anti-life equation killed him and Darkseid or they got hurled into anther dimension. Just speculating on a speculation; my mind doesn't let go of something if it bugs me.
Hypertime? Hypertime. That's the only thing I can think of.
YES YES YES it’s
Thursday I’m always hype every other Thursday because this show
3:58 "Ok..just gonna tab that"
6:30 And that's why "Flashpoint" gives me a goddamn headache...
The Comic, not the episode...
I have a different theory: you all care about this stuff way more than the actual writers and the original work is flawed, but you can believe in whatever theory you like if it helps you sleep at night.
Really hyped for Justice League reunion in the Fatal Five movie
Yes, but in that very Harry Potter book, Rowling broke her own rule by having them save Buckbeak, even though he wasn't already saved. It's supposed to work where everything you do during your time travelling happened in your timeline anyways because the future you were there, e.g. Harry getting hit with the rock that Hermione later throws, the Harry that saves them, etc.
People complain about the abortion that is the Cursed Child breaking the time travel rules, but Rowling already did that in the only book it was used in. Cursed Child is terrible without that.
How was Buckbeak not already saved? That’s certainly the implication.
An epiphany came to me a while back:
What if future DCAU Vandal Savage was responsible for directing the meteorite that exposed his younger self in the distant past?
And what if the meteorite wasn’t a meteorite at all?
What if it was manufactured?
What if it came directly from the future?
Think about it, the bread crumbs are all there for present day or future Vandal Savage to figure this out and make it happen.
First, Vandal tests out his black hole portal to see what can be sent through it (The Savage Time), then later on his past self invests his time in railgun technology that directs meteorites and asteroids to use as projectiles (Maid of Honor). Finally, he invests his interests in power that will inadvertently affect the Earth's gravitational field (Hereafter). These components could later on be used to acquire meteorites and asteroids from any time or place in the DCAU.
I'm probably overthinking things like I usually do with subjects such as this, however, the DCAU incarnation of Vandal Savage fascinates me.
Oooo that's actually a really cool idea!
@@dcauwatchtower Thank you.
Alternate timelines come from the past of a specific being change alternate universes come from two separate decisions being taken in one universe created by Divergent with University and hereafter it was the same universe but the timeline is being changed
I already commented, but now I have a new theory: Hitler's Brain! No joke, it revolves around the story's briefly-frozen Fuhrer (Also wondering if that crude cryo didn't damage his drug-addled brain just a little further, but I digress). Now, the first part assumes that DC's Nazi mad scientists did things to their Hitler to try and amp up his survival like Zola did in various versions of Marvel. Maybe not the same things, but longevity and revival are somewhere in the mix. Next, this increased his sick magnetism, personality-wise, perhaps keeping him alive when disposing of him would have been the wiser move. So if Hitler is still in those tubes, it is an alternate timeline, with the Nazi leadership still having the option to turn back to him (and hope he didn't remember clearly how he got put in there). As Savage grates on them, they keep Hitler in mind, almost whether they want to or not. But if we get to the end of the war and victory for Savage, he feels free to finally end his frozen rival - then it becomes an alternate universe, and cue the Bat-resistance. For myself, I like to think the other Batman did fade away, if only because one of my time/universe travel bugaboos is characters from events like Flashpoint and Age Of Apocalypse crossing over to live in the main Earth, since their home was the main Earth, just upended by history. Oh, and don't forget the Blackhawks recalled The Savage Time as well.
@Watchtower Database, the thing is... if John Sterert's ring didn't protect the rest of the league from the Quantum change... Savage STILL would have been beaten. Bruce Wayne and his resistence (especially with Shayera Hol, Jonn Jones, Kal El, Mala, Green Lantern Diana, and Hro Talek) would have defeated Vandal Savage And his forces in the present.
That set seems like a pain in the ass to film and work at
Every alternate timeline is an alternate universe.
No, it depends on the story. In some stories, Timeline A is simply overwritten by Timeline B such that Timeline A no longer exists at all (save for in the memory of the time-travelers), not that they split off into alternate universes.
I do want to know what happened to The Flash in the DCAU?
Do a video about vandalsavage from young justice
I think the time machine wasn't really sending anything through time, and instead created a new present and a fake past for that present. That way the JL didn't stop existing, since John's ring protected them from the change.
Does this make sense? No? Good. Time travel never does.
This episode should have feature rip hunter who came to fix this
I loved that Wonder Woman video.
Who says it was a fixed timeline? It could just as easily be that history was changed, just not too drastically. Of course there are going to be continuity references *AFTER* the timeline was changed! For it to be a fixed timeline, there would need to be either continuity references from *BEFORE* the League went back in time that they personally remember, or there would be a direct connection from something they experienced in the past that led to the League time-traveling in the first place. Nothing of the sort exists.
In fact, we can *prove* that it is not a fixed timeline, since Vandal Savage *did* succeed in changing the timeline, which the League (with their ripple-proof memories) experienced first hand before they went back and changed it to a third timeline. Likewise, Superman was able to go back and change the timeline that originally had Savage wiping out all human life on Earth save for himself. In a fixed timeline, history *cannot* be changed!
You know the savage time being time travel/multiverse is kinda like how Batman year one is canon the main DC universe (before zero hour I think) and canon to the frank miller elseworld with his other dc work with dark knight returns and all star Batman and robin etc till sometime before new 52.....idk I could be wrong
Aren't you paying attention? Six of one, half a dozen of another: Divergent alternate histories or probability worlds ARE universes with each their own vibratory rate, and vice versa. Elseworlds or improbability worlds, alternate realities in contradiction inconsistent with any possible divergence, are not known to have yet appeared in the JLA animated continuity.
The answer is the same as all time travel problems...look a bird!
Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.
Over the past few months all of these clips started appearing on TH-cam and the other night the Crisis on Two Earths clip appeared and I came to the conclusion of an alternate Earth in the Multiverse too. There is one thing though:
If Superman corrected the timeline in "Here After", couldn't we look at Savage "fading out of existence" as that version of Savage actually fading out of the main DCAU timeline and into an alternate reality?
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Interesting theory. Could possibly be a different one, or the same one which Savage altered over time.
The one thing that'll cause problems though is, which other time travel adventure in the DCAU is on a fixed timeline or which is dynamic timeline.
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Ah ok, must have missed that bit then. Sorry about that.
Could be like time travel from star trek first contact?
when it comes down to time travel DC Comics very strict about it.when ever time travel is involed it pretty clear that if you mess with one thing in the past it will screw everything up. case-in-point the flashpoint storyline, Barry Allen travels back in time to save his mother but resulted in the timeline becoming screwed up. by changing that one event it caused a ripple effect through the time stream which resulted in Bruce dying in the place of his parents, superman's rocket crashing in Metropolis to name a few. since the Guardians of the universe would be aware of time-travel they probably made the Green Lantern rings impervious to the Ripple effects and since the Guardians of the Universe imposed a law that no-one could travel to the beginning of time.
Its simple. The Justice League was not affected by the time line chnage because they always traveled back in time. Time has an innate sense ability to keep itself intact. The changes tonthe time line were made by Savage, but only temporarily. Its is what triggers to league to go back, so they had to happen. Same thing with Supermans time travel tonthe future. Savage sending him back was the universes way of correcting itself and getting back to the proper time mine.
Anytime a change is made due to the actions of a time traveler, the universe will set up a sequence of events, on a quantum level, to undo those changes. It may take a long time to enact those changes compared to how we perceive time, but to the universe the time between Superman dissappearing and the end of the earth was a small fraction of time. Same thing with the league and ww2.
The same can be aplly to flashpoint?
I got nothing to say
Oh yeah oh yeah?
Sorry, none of your clonedudes showed up
@@popburnsy3207 the Watchtower database guys have always been good to me personally. I choose only to do this to TH-camrs who deserve it
@@JacobyJ56 if I'm being honest, I still don't quite get what you guys are doing
Owlman by his own explanation has to be wrong though - if there's infinite worlds, with any potential for moving between them, then it is definite that someone (like Owlman) would be succeessful in ending all of the multiverse. We see existing universes, so it is not true.
Either that, or it's not infinite.
@@mattiesavannahpahl9934 Thanks for replying! First off, I just saw your Batman Beyond timeline video. I hope you're doing okay now.
That is a true statement, but that analogy also doesn't apply.
Basically Owlman's statement and dying words are stating that there's infinite numbers between 2 and 3, but "it (our choices, or here, our numbering system) doesn't matter", because those numbers aren't limited to being between 2.0 and 3.0, so at least one of them must be 4.
So his infinity isn't a limit function, it's a set of all possible graphs... That's probably really unclear. I'm not a math student anymore.
If you want to see a good time travel movie, you should watch Primer.
Time headache achieved.
Just finished reading Justice League Inifinity and it looks like multiverse 1, dynamic timeline 0.
Time Travel is horrible.
And i do think its just a alternate timeline
The T-Pain LEGO Movie add tho