The censored death was definitely just as horrific as watching him get shot, but knowing that Tim actually broke that one rule, makes his departure from the bat family even more impactful.
the fact that it had to be done twice is infuriating. i mean, i'm reasonably sure he didnt come up with that microchip plan early on in his career, leading to the safe assumption that if bruce had done him a long time ago, tim nor terry would have had to.
I don't know or care what from who on this at all. All I know is them adding the uncensored death scene for the TV airing is how I always remember seeing it as the flashback. As for opinion on it, the brutality should have been upped in every way. They didn't show bare tits, therefore it's PG-13 and who cares? And as always, let the bodies hit the floor of ground zero you fucking pansy asses.
With physical media diminishing, having the official uncut DVD feels sweeter than ever; one of my souvenirs from working at Blockbuster. Imo its the definitive version, maturing with the audience and showing the Joker fully unhinged like we never have seen before but always knew the potential was there.
The idea of Joker dying twice to electricity is interesting, but it sort of feels like a parallel just for the sake of it. For me, I think Tim being the one to literally pull the trigger is just better, not only for how it affects him but also that Robin killing a villain is the kind of event that would break the family, at least more so than Joker accidentally killing himself because he was cavalier with childproofing his laboratory.
I didn't feel the electricity parallel was that on the nose. Joker being killed by his own gun and by Robin was, though. Robin was already affected and broken even without killing him. And the family was effectively broken by that, too. Dick was already gone, Tim wasn't coming back from this, and I could definitely see DCAU!Bruce refusing any sort of formal partner at that point, pushing Barbara away, because he'd feel he couldn't protect them.
Tim shooting Joker is a direct parallel of the Joker shooting Bonk, only this tine it serves the purpose of foreshawdowing who the Joker really is. When you watch it back you go "oh, the clues were right there!". The Joker being killed by his own hand isn't as detrimental. Tim completely breaking hits way harder. He killed intentionally killed someone. It shows that tye Joker really did break him, even if Tim turned against the Joker. The Joker won in the end.
Of the two, Joker would prefer the Censored one. 1. It's more gruesome. He'd feel every bit of electricity. 2. It's poetic as he used it to destroy Robin and it was used against him. 3. He'd be more apeeled by the idea of slipping into his death like he stepped on a Banana Peel.
@@rennythespaceguy7285how's that an issue? After all Joker would like his death to be one of two ways. 1. Cause of Bats. 2. Something that ties into his Clown motif.
I think Tim Drake killing the Joker seems to be more tragic for that character and explain better why the Bat Family is so shaken after the events and why this version of Bruce is originally so against having kid sidekicks again.
@@notusedexer because theyve done it already and it always devolves to batman becoming another murdering batman like his gotham knight incarnation. Or the batman who laughs.
@@ZeroOmega-vg8nq there is justified killing and unjustified killing. To think that you go crazy after a justified killing is way more stupid than they should be.
@@notusedexer its doesnt matter what we think if its stupid batman has been written consistently that even if its justified he KNOWS he will just get worse. Even in injustice that batman pointed it out bout justified kills leading to wanton murder like supes did to billy
Tim Drake: "I see him... every night... His voice... His laugh... And the way he died..." Terry: "And how did he die?" Tim Drake: "That depends... Censored version or uncensored version?" Terry: "Censored Version" Tim Drake: "Electrocuted while he stepped on a puddle of water" Terry: "Very funny, Tim. Now, how is the death of him in the censored version?"
@@mikebottomlesspitdunham2954 It is kind of funny that his death is more terrifying and gruesome in the censored version, but I think part of it was more so reducing Tim's culpability in the Joker's death from shooting him to pushing him and then the Joker accidentally killing himself because of it. Though I suspect a big part of it was a fixation on guns specifically too. Shooting a minion? Can't do that! Gas him and have his twitching body grinning eerily in what seems to be a fate worse than death? That's fine!
I has a vhs that was partially censored as a kid, I remember it including the "peeled back the layers of the boys mind" line as well as the red graphitti and some blood but was otherwise the censored version.
You have actually cured me of a particular case of insanity. I thought I was remembering the Joker's death scene wrong. I swore that he was electrocuted, so when I saw the uncut version, I was like "WTF". So, thank you. Now I know there are two different versions out there.
I had the opposite experience. The first time I saw this I was like 7 didn’t see the censored version until I was an adult and I was like wtf I coulda sworn he got shot
Funny enough as a kid the cut version always seemed darker, the uncut version he just get shot but in the other one, what you don't see is what makes it worse. In my mind was "oh he got burnt by electricity so bad they didn't even show it" imagination can be scarier.
yeah, in making it "kid friendly" they made something even more horrifying dying from electrocution takes a lot longer then is allowed for humane rodent kill traps
I think the uncut version is canon since that was the original vision made. Also, it makes more sense for Tim to directly have killed Joker since it parallels Bruce being ashamed of pointing a gun in the first episode's opening scene. I imagine Tim Drake's shooting scene went through Bruce's mind in that moment and contributed to Bruce hanging up the cape.
Also see I think it’s episode 4 or 5 of Batman Beyond, there’s a screen scroll by of Joker’s skeleton in the landfill with the hole in his suit and chest, like he was shot.
What I find ironic is that at one point Ace is watching the Looney Tunes cartoon "Hare Ribbin" which had its own censorship problems before its release for being too violent.
I was introduced to Batman Beyond with the “Return of the Joker” film my parents got it for me for Christmas back in 2001 on VHS still have it in my dad’s crib in Mississippi.
I actually like the Batmobile seatbelt. It simply makes sense for it to be there, more realistic. Plus, in a weird way, despite being such a small thing, in my opinion it makes Batman feel just that much more "prepared". Like it's yet another piece of everything he takes to battle, yet another contingency he's protected against.
I remember hearing somewhere that the seatbelts being re-added wasn't even a network decision, but rather an animation error that was caused by a misinterpretation of the storyboards being corrected.
Weirdly enough, here in Brazil I only remember seeing the uncut version shown on tv when I was a kid, never the censored one. I'm very grateful it taught me not to play with guns, nor sir, only wet high-voltage cables for me. Best childhood ever.
Same here in Italy! Early 2000s, I saw it on tv and it definitely was the uncensored version, it was my first time watching something Batman related and I fell in love. I remember how cool the Bonk death was and to me is still one of the Joker's coldest moments ever hahah
Cara, eu (brasileiro tbm) lembro de locar e copiar a versão censurada. Que pela brutalidade da cena do coringa eletrocutado eu já achava q era a versão sem cortes.
This is gonna sound insane, but this is the 1st time I've heard of an uncut version. When I got out of the Army in 02, I immediately bought the DVD of this movie and had watched it several times over the years. Eventually, when the Blu-ray box set was released, I bought that not knowing it contained the uncut version of the movie. It still remains sealed at home. As soon as I get home from work today, I'll be opening that up and watching this uncut version of the film. Very exciting.
29:55 Yes, actually. I remember it airing on Cartoon Network. I distinctly remember the "Peel back the layers" of the Robin's mind line, but with the electrocution death of Joker
I watched the uncut version as a kid and the thing was back in the day, this kind of content was normal. If it was too intense for you, you simply didn't watch the show. The Batman Animated Series and Batman Beyond were definitely on the same level of PG 13 movies and never hid it. There are many haunting scenes. The one that stood out to this day is "Annie" from Batman Beyond. Jeez that was a gut punch at the end.
I am VERY glad I decided not to make a video about why Return of the Joker was censored as part of Batman Beyond’s 25th anniversary. You did a much better job than I could have! One little tidbit that may interest you is that the European version of the Batman Beyond Blu-ray set came with a DVD copy of the censored version of Return of the Joker. At the time the only way to get the uncensored version in HD was to order the German blu-ray version, which I did (thankfully it’s all in English by default!) Fingers crossed we get a 4K UHD version soon 🤞
I saw the edited version growing up, but that uncut version was stitched in my memory forever. Tim's story arc felt complete with him fighting the mind control, Joker's final line.
Beyond was my favorite show as a kid and still is as an adult. I used to have an uncut VHS copy and my mom would tell me how special it is and now I can’t find it anywhere, but I hope it eventually turns back up.
As someone who watched the Uncensored version only, I remember recording the TV release. I can absolutely attest the Joker dying via Tim and the gun. It wasn't until this video did I realize the Joker dies via electrocution in the edited version. I do recall Tim Drake saying "It's a Doozy". I parroted that line for a long time. So I got that from the edited TV version. So wild that I never saw the full edited version before.
The uncut version is much better to me and has to be canon. Tim pulling himself together just long enough to do whatever he can to save his adoptive father, even if its something as unforgivable as killing, is powerful to me for some reason. And the gun joker uses to kill the one goon is the same as the one that killed him in this version, which i feel like it could be a hint at it being Tim before its told to us.. im also just angry at wb for thinking seeing Batman punch bad guys would make children want to go out and shoot people lol
Ding ding ding! You get meaningful storytelling! Unlike WB execs. Nevermind in episode 4 or 5 I think it shows Joker’s corpse in the Arkham ruins with the hole in his chest.
As much as I love the uncut version overall, I do kind of agree that the electrocution death in the censored version works really well. I actually think the animation is just a lot cleaner, and seeing the Joker disheveled and taken apart as he’s drenched in water creates this kind of rare image of him being “off his game” in a way that makes the death really work. We also get Batman’s smile at Tim throwing the gun away which is like… gut-wrenching, it’s a small thing but it’s such a show of emotion from Bruce, especially knowing his reaction in the aforementioned Earth-12 comics where Bruce talks abt “a gun being a gun no matter who uses it.” Ultimately both versions work but there is a lot about the censored cut that I think works really well and is overlooked because it’s not THE grittiest, most violent version that some ppl gravitate towards. At the same time though, there’s definitely something to be said for the crew getting to have their original vision intact, so as mentioned in the video, getting an HD release of both versions on one disc would be the best of both worlds.
Even having that third version which has the whole censored version except for the flashback, as that pretty much fixes both the canon of the Joker's death being fitting for the crew's vision but also keeping all the fixed animation and continuity that the censored allowed them to revisit from the original, uncut version.
In my opinion, being electrocuted like that is a worse death than getting shot. But having Tim pull the trigger is much more traumatic for him. In my perfect universe, there would be a fusion of both versions. Have Time fire the gun, but have the bullet hit a non lethal spot. Joker would stumble back into the torture room, hit the container of water, slip, and then electrocute himself
@@TAMAMO-VIRUS That's actually pretty much what I had Mandella Effected myself into remembering, actually, lol 😅! But either way, Tim still pushes Joker into the vial of water, so he still kinda helped cause his death, sure Joker flipped the switch, but that wasn't nearly as purposeful of an action as pushing Joker into the water. Joker only flipped the switch accidentally on instinct.
I’ve seen the uncut version circulated so often I didn’t even KNOW that Joker death scene had an alternate take. And it’s even MORE brutal with him being ELECTROCUTED, and that was somehow LESS violent for the execs? WH AT
I feel like the uncut version is THE version for me. shout out to the crew for making an absolute masterpiece, same goes for the makers of this video 😉
I think if you fused the two versions, it would be the best of both worlds. The censored cut of Jokers death haunted me a bit more than the un-cut version did.
I definitely go with the uncut as the true canon version. For one thing, it was already produced before cuts were ordered (unlike say, "Robin's Reckoning", where they already had limitations in place and knew they had to somehow show the Graysons dying without explicitly showing it). Another thing too for me, is that thematically it just means more that Robin straight up kills The Joker. Seeing him actually commit the murder adds to the understanding of how the trauma affects him even as an adult; he has a sense of guilt over it, despite the horrible things done to him. However with the censored version, Joker merely slips and kills himself. While Tim is still rightfully traumatized by what Joker did to him, there is pall over Joker's death that's lost because it was an accidental one, and not one explicitly caused by Tim/Robin himself. It just simply means more with the uncut version to me.
To be honest, as a fan based in India, oddly enough the uncut version was the only one telecasted here in India on Cartoon Network way back in 2005. I was only 8 when I watched it for the first time on a Sunday afternoon. As a result, I had known the original version for the most of my life until my college years when I came to know about the edited cut while going for a re-watch.
My original copy of the film was a screener copy on VHS, so the uncut death is what's canon in my mind. I used to have arguments with my friends all the time, because they said the Joker was electrocuted, and I insisted he was shot. We finally watched my copy during a sleepover, and they were so confused by how different my copy of the film was. I also played the Return of the Joker PS1 game until it stopped working. xD
Hey, brazilian guy here. I think MAYBE they released the "third cut" as the "international version" because I remember Nana Harley with black and red clothes, the laughing gas part, but I have never ever in my life seen the "joker gets eletrocuted" bit. Keep in mind that I have only seen the movie on TV, I have never rented it or bought it otherwise.
While I prefer the uncensored cut, I still wish the censored cut would get an HD release just for the sake of film preservation since it is still a part of the DCAU's creative history.
I remember watching the censored version as a kid and do recall seeing some sort of ad somewhere for the Original Uncut version. I don't remember if it was a video ad or a print ad. but I know I saw an ad cause that's what made me go to my local Target and use my allowance to buy the DvD. It was the first DVD I ever bought and the first thing I ever got signed at my first convention. I met Kevin Conroy in 2010 and he was delighted to sign my copy and informed me it was his proudest work as Batman.
29:52 It's a relief you were able to confirm a mixed version. For most of the video I was was confused why I only knew the shooting death but some of the cut differences were not aligned with what I recalled, and I've only seen it on TV. Like I remember that DeeDee cofrontation being abrupt. Though my memory is mixed on that "Bonk" part, the "we're with you" and corpse drag seem familiar.
I love the animation fixes in the censored version but there’s something about the uncut version of Joker’s death that I appreciate so much more, maybe because it gives Tim actual agency in the story rather than being a victim twice over. He gets to be a hero, of a sort, one more time by breaking through his trauma and finally ending the Joker’s evil
I remember I saw the death of the Joker sequence in 2007 or 2008 in the very early days of TH-cam. I then found the uncut version on DVD and watched the hell out of it. I think the flashback sequence is better than the rest of the movie, although the rest is still fairly well-conceived. I prefer the uncut version because the censored version was clearly butchered and feels edited while you watch it. As far as I’m concerned, this is the definitive death of the Joker.
Just wanted to say love these videos, man. I'm 31 now, and the DCEU was a staple of my childhood growing up. I've introduced BTAS and STAS so far to my 8 year old boy, and he loves them. I'm glad to see this universe of related shows/comics is still getting love. Keep up the great content.
My kids were blown away watching the uncensored version with me on WB Backlot’s TH-cam channel actually. They also love man bear pig so… I think I’m doing an ok job as a dad?
There is also the Greek TV version. Which is the censored version of the Censored version. The Joker's death scene by electrocution is a static shot of Tim's face. The space laser scene is completely Cut..... terry just lands the Batmobile. And the Batcave scene ,where terry finds bruce, is also completely Cut. It's short as hell with horrendous greek voice acting 😂
The Frankenstein version is canon, it gives Joker and Tim the canon death flashback, but has all the quality of life edits like Batman actually using seatbelts, which I think is equally as important to promote in media to children as any other message, real life safety first.
I was in a video store. Suncoast, actually, not long after the edited version came out. I overheard this kid saying "I heard the Joker really stabbed Batman!" That was the first I'd heard of an uncensored version. I later bought it on DVD and although the special features were cool. It was the same cut. Didn't see it uncensored until the 2010s
I think the the uncensored cut is the definitive version. Jokers death just hits harder after "That's not funny" and than seeing Tim break down crying, chefs kiss. (The story not a small kid crying after he murdered somebody)
I think the uncut version is the canon version, but in some ways I think Joker's death in the censored version is more horrific as it's more exaggerated and Hamil's scream sounds so painful. Plus with the actual death being off screen the imagery is left to the imagination which is more impactful. Regardless of which version it was that I watched growing up (almost assuredly the censored one), that image of Tim on the table, post-transformation, was burned into my brain and always stuck with me as something horrific. The only thing more horrific was the N64 video game adaptation of this game. I wonder if anyone has played that game for long enough to see if it aligns more with the censored or uncut version of the movie.
If nothing else, the silver lining of this whole fiasco is that we got to see some genuine ingenius ways the writers and animators got around "derek"'s shenanigans.
Definitely prefer the uncut version but I go over and back as to which death is better. It's amazing that they were so harsh on this movie with cuts when Beyond is already such a dark show - the nerve gas in the pilot is far more grisly and haunting than anything in this movie imo. Fun fact - while the comic book adaptation mostly followed the censored version, one small clue to the original cut remains: the line "Tim DID shoot him" is said by Barbara (I think) despite not making any sense in the censored version of the story.
I tend to think of the uncut version as canon, but there is a part of me that actually prefers the Joker’s censored death more on a thematic level. Yes, he put Tim through horrible trauma - but he didn’t ultimately break him in the “one bad day” sense. Despite all he put Tim through, despite arguably breaking him - he didn’t turn him into a killer. Tim was still strong enough to defiantly toss the gun aside, and while he did push the Joker into the tank of water - I wouldn’t say he is to blame for the Joker’s death. I suppose a big part of the preference comes from whether or not you like Joker getting in a “win” in spite of his demise - I like that in the censored cut, he doesn’t get that win. Tim doesn’t “cross that line”, even to save Bruce. Joker fails to make Robin a killer like him, and at the end of the epic confrontation? His death is a result of an accident. A pratfall. To paraphrase Batman: Arkham City, that death actually is pretty funny.
That's completely fair! I always preferred the shooting ending, but you just gave me an insight that helped me see why the electrocution version if the death has its merit.
I remember getting it on DVD as a kid back in the mid to late 2000s. It was the uncut version, so seeing all the censored scenes was weird because I watched it a lot. For the longest time, I had NO IDEA that there was a censored version until now.
Until seeing this video, I had no idea there was a censored version at all so the title confused me. I remember watching it for the first time (as well as several weekend re-runs) on Toonami as a kid which at the time was the "older kid" portion of Cartoon Network on British TVs that came on for a few hours a day before it got spun off to it's own channel. The film was one of - if not _the_ first time I watched a piece of animation that felt really different (and didn't turn out to be anime once I was old enough to understand the concept of foreign media). I couldn't have even been 10 at the time but I absolutely loved the brutality of the story beats, how much more mature it was than everything else I'd been watching. To this day, I still haven't committed murder so take that and file it away in your statistics folder, WB exec Derek.
@@JustHereForCats Tell me about it. Toonami is what introduced me to Outlaw Star, the first anime I watched that got me to understand there was something different going on with these cartoons. It'd take a few more years before I'd understand the "these are Japanese" thing though.
@@JustHereForCats I didn't know about manhwa for a really long time. On a similar subject though, I was absolutely baffled when I learnt Cubix was Korean.
@@daggern15 wait, it is?! That’s insane, and I’m going down that rabbit hole sometime soon 🤣🤣 Yeah, I got into WEBTOON years ago… I learned a lot about the medium that way. I’m actively reading like a couple dozen manhwa on there lol
Question of the Day: I definitely consider the uncensored version to be the canon one. It was the version that the team showed to everyone (prior to Derek coming in with a pair of comically large scissors). It was the one they always intended to release. Therefore, the only logical answer is that the censored version is (in my best James impression) NOT CANON! I also personally like the original better. It's darker and more mature, and that's what I prefer in animated content. Censored is certainly still dark, but I don't feel it's as dark.
Personally, I think Censored Cut adds something to the movie. For one, the correction of mistakes, the costume changes, and the death scene elevate the movie for me. Joker dying by electrocution *Twice* is Pretty ironic and, dare i say it, funny.
I do like some of the dialogue changes, but there are some that i don’t like. Like Changing “Killer” to “Doosie” seems very unnecessary. And the action getting toned down is quite disappointing. I want a “build a movie” so we can have the best of both worlds. Most of the dialogue and action can stay the same, while we keep the positive dialogue changes and the new death scene.
Lol, I never realized the VHS uncensored copies were bootlegs. I watched this movie on a copy that was uncensored on VHS and while the box was fine. The tape was marked not for resale within the movie and part way through cut to a warning that said it was a not for resale copy
Uncut is the way to go! It was the only animated thing that made my family stop what they were doing as soon as it had the flashback scene on. I remember I bought it on DVD after I saw the first Tobey McGuire Spider-Man . that was a great Superhero movie day !
I'd have to go with the uncut version. To me the joker saying something isn't funny as his dying words is perfect. It also has its own mirror moment in that's the same way joker killed Bonk.
That’s a hard question because when I think back to the movie I always remember the censored death but the uncut one just hits better and feels like Robin was able to do what Batman never could and the emotional turmoil he has to deal with for the rest of his life makes his reluctance to help Terry not just a plot twist but an emotional flashback to possibly the worst moment of his life. Regardless of how evil Joker was he still took a human being from this earth by his own hands, not a domino effect of accidents.
While I wasn’t aware of the Issues in the Production at the Time, I still consider Return of the Joker One of my Favorite DC Movies that I would watch on again, although the Uncut Version is Canon.
I’ve always thought that it would be cool to see a reverse Frankenstein cut. One where the Flashback sequence is the Cut version (honestly, Joker’s “That’s not funny line” probably should have been something like “Robin shot me…now THAT’S hilarious!”) with the rest of the flick being uncut. Also, Batman pulling the lever to shut and lock the door, ripping it off the mechanism, and ready to fight Joker? Easily my favorite moment in all of the DCAU.
Arkham Joker would manically laugh while looking directly at Batman knowing his place in history is secure and also the chip he put in Tims brain skull
I happen to have One of those double sided dvds that once Ed returned the Joker on it and it happens to be the censored/cut version Which let's be honest once you've watched the uncut version it's very difficult to watch the original release because you can see where all the little cuts are.
in my opinion, a Frankenstein version of this film would probably be the most fitting, the most "canon" to me. Keep nearly all of the uncensored cut, and add back in the seatbelts and aptly colored old harley. Have Bonk's death be the Laughing Gas/twitching death. Add in a finished version of the cut Arkham Scene before the club scene with Dana. And here's where things get interesting. Have *both* flashback Joker deaths be canon. Have Tim shoot Joker, who flies backwards and sputters a "That's not funny", before getting up and yelling at JJ, who throws the gun to the side, "That's not funny at all!". Joker takes the flag out of his chest, and he and Tim mirror each other as they both charge at each other, leading finally, to a bloodier version of the censored cut's Joker death. Bam! Perfection!
The Uncut version of the film is the canon film for me since it was the sole reason I got into the DCAU as a kid. My memory has always been wonky when it came to the DCAU but from what I can remember and what my older sister has told me. We always watched the film here and there when she felt like spending time with me. Plus seeing Joker get what he deserved from Tim was always poetic in my opinion.
The production quality of the videos on this channel is phenomenal. I used to run a website back in the late 90s / early 00s called ‘Batman UK’ and was lucky enough to be sent a copy of the screener version on VHS. I remember how surprised everyone was to hear about the changes. The UK release of the Batman Beyond blu-ray set contains the censored version of ROTJ but it’s a DVD.
Saw in the comments someone putting the parallel of Tim shooting Bonk and shooting Joker. Terry has to be a detective when Bruce can’t be anymore, he has to piece together the clues from the batcave. We as the viewer have this bonus clue to help us out, and for many viewers, they still haven’t worked it out by the end plot twist. That’s how you know the writing is good here.
As someone who lived in Colorado during Columbine, I understood the concerns some may have with media violence, but felt it wasn't necessary towards Return of the Joker. I was a teen when the film was launched( and during Columbine), and figured the demographic was more toward older audiences, considering the tone of the show. However, I have watched and shown my younger cousins the film( uncut) which they had no problems with it whatsoever. They knew Joker was a menace and wasn't playing around but also acknowledge Terry would be the perfect foil to a villain used to Bruce! In short, despite tragedy being a possible means for censorship, you should never underestimate kids who understand what's taking place in a film vs reality.
I thought the video said the kidswb exec wanted to air the movie on a Saturday morning. They were horrified at what they saw and asked for changes only for it to go to waste since it did not air on that block. Kidswb had the most notorious censors back in the day. They literally caused the pokemon dub to stop saying the word bomb and change it to "blaster balls..." Etc
I was 6 years old when this came out, my family wasnt especially well off at the time so id only get a few movies a year and we didnt have cable, so i remember watching this movie probably every other day when i got home from school. I absolutely loved batman and thought the new younger batman was so freaking cool. God i miss how simple life was as a kid. I was so happy just watching the same thing over and iver again, now i get angry if i get the same ad twice in one video. Lol
18:43 The censored version of the Joker's death is still pretty good. Him slipping and accidentally electrocuting himself seems like the type of on-brand, slapstick humor associated with the character. It reminds me of that scene from The Dark Knight where just after the Joker crawls out of the overturned semi-truck, when he attempts to get to his feet, he stumbles back down while accidentally letting off a burst of gunfire from his machine gun.
The censored and uncensored DVDs also had their own completely different commentary tracks. So not only did these guys have to rush to made these changes, they ALSO had to go back and record a new commentary track covering a lot of the same information, since the edits had changed the runtime. I remember in one Bruce Timm did an impression of Mark Hamill when recalling something he said and in the other one he just plainly said what Hamill had said with out doing an impression. (I don't remember which was which or what he was quoting.) Although I remember getting the censored version and then learning about this legendary uncensored version (that I thought at the time I would never get to see), I never heard the "Columbine" explanation until fairly recently (perhaps from your earlier video). I got the VHS when it came out, then later upgraded it to a DVD before the uncensored version was released. I didn't notice the edits and only later learned of an uncensored version having once existed. (I don't remember exactly how I learned of this.) My brother imported a Japanese DVD of the movie, just assuming that Japan would get the uncensored version since there TV censorship was much more lax than in the US. But alas, it was the same edited version, except the title was changed to "Batman of the Future: Return of the Joker", and had an additional Japanese language track. Then my brother downloaded the uncut version from somewhere on the internet. I think it had burned-in Korean subtitles. I definitely prefer the uncut version, but it would be good to have both versions available, or at least the altered scenes as bonus features.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as not initially questioning the original censored release of the movie if any of us were still kids at the time (when as WB's own intended demographic for the movie we were never supposed to anyway), only to be granted the uncut version later and discovering how much more we enjoy the movie now with age *because* the story of what Joker did to Tim in the past is so dark and messed up while really hitting you hard with how twisted this clown truly is. Even if the Columbine incident hadn't been a factor in the movie's censorship it always would have been a safe assumption that it was due to a higher-up WB exec deciding it was "too much for the kiddies we want to sell this movie to". I'm of a very similar mind when it comes to Forever as its initial 1995 release will always have a sentimental value to me as my first live-action Batman movie, but the more I learn over the years about Schumacher having had a longer, darker cut of the movie at one point the more I just think to myself how "I really wanna watch *that* version now" over the one that needed to be released under any stricter family friendly mandate from WB. For my QOTD answer I, like a lot of other fans here, would have to consider the uncut version canon knowing it was always the cut of the movie that Timm & Crew had initially made and wanted to be seen before all of the changes that they had to do.
Great episode, James and crew. I just showed this film to my boyfriend and he also loved it. Damn that Derek and execs like him. Such a frustrating story, the way he screwed with that crew so coldly and then WB didn't even market it. Well, we all know it's a classic now.
Great Video. You're dead on about the uncut version being released silently. Funny story but I managed to get my hands on it day 1 because A friend of mine worked at Futureshop and gave me a heads up about a new batman animated movie coming out, even though I was a HUGE batman beyond fan I had somehow missed the OG version of the movie. So, when I started talking to some of the guys who have seen the original version they basically told me that I should stop sniffing glue. So being guys I had them drop by and watch the movie and everyone's mind was blown.
As someone who didn't have easy access to Kid's WB at the time, Cartoon Network was simply how I watched Batman Beyond. Meaning that I have never seen the censored version. And yes, someone should do a hybrid edit splicing in the Censored version's corrections into the Uncensored version. I want to see Nana Harley in Red and Black, dang it!
The first time I saw the film was on TV and was the third version which had certain censorships but the uncensored flashback. Bear in mind it was also dubbed in Greek because I live in Greece. Not too long after that I got the English version, specifically the original version without the censorship, and watched it about 20 times. In my opinion this film is Mark Hamill's best and most terrifying ever performance as the Joker.
@@thevenom2731 Wasn't bad but there were some weird deliveries. However one of the best dubs I have ever seen in my life was of the Batman Superman movie which was the World's Finest episodes combined. I hate to say it but I may even prefer it to the English version.
Mentioning the Mandela Effect is quite poignant because watching this, at least until you got to the part where the uncut version WAS released, I was wondering why I had memories of BOTH versions... 🙀 It was only a couple of years ago or so that I watched the uncut version, and with all the differences I was thinking it was maybe a remaster/update of the story. That's a relief... it means I'm still crazy, but not crazi-ER. 😁 Either way, I see them BOTH (like most stories) as canon. Just in different worldlines. I've been a fan of the Multiverse ever since the Flash of Two Worlds. After all, two things can both be true at once! 😂
Funny you mentioned the Mandela Effect because I only remember seeing the uncut (death by gun) on TV when I was younger. I know it was airing live on TV at the time I was young and before TH-cam. I never heard of the censored version till now. Maybe instead of Kids WB, I was watching on Cartoon Network but I don't remember it airing on that. I do know I only knew about the death by gun version though.
I remember having the VHS copy of this when I was about 4 (2005 or so) and I'm so happy that I was able to see it. I have no idea how or why my family ended up with it but it's a miracle that it did. Thank you to the entire team behind my favorite movie.
Despite the smooth moves by banana heels Joker, I gotta say Uncut is cannon. It's what the artists intended and the studio is onboard because they no longer service the censored version. It's out of print and on purpose! They don't even stream it. (Then again Goofy's "Motor Mania" isn't on Disney+ but I digress.)
Perhaps eventually..... Warner Archive can release both versions on Blu-Ray. Would be fitting as they have been killing it on the animation department lately
I prefer the uncut version as canon, but I will say Joker's scream off-camera when he dies in the censored version is fucking haunting and I love it. This was a comfort movie for me growing up, rewatching it over and over again all the time, thanks for doing another video on it!
Personally for me, this movie is core memory but not just for it's quality. This was the movie my parents rented my 10 year old self on 9/11 to keep me in my room and away from the news. Of course, I snuck and looked at the news anyway. I imagine if development had been a year later on the timeline, we wouldn't have gotten the batmobile laser sequence...
This proves that censorship can be a real bitch, and a pain to real artists. But it can be helpful to keep both the cut and uncut versions in archieves.
The dialogue before the Joker's death changed too. His instructions to Tim Drake were edited. Uncut: Now, deliver the punchline! Censored: Now, make him (Batman) one of us!
A super super early hint at "The Batman who Laughs"?? Nah, probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if the creators of that story took SOME inspiration from that line of thinking, and this plot thread in general.
I remember watching Batman Beyond growing up in Thailand, I had just moved to the country for the 1st time with my mom back in 1995. You don't have to believe me, but I was only able to watch this movie on a video cassette tape in the early 2000s. Dvds existed, but not this movie. At the time, Western animations, including disney and Warner Bros., was much harder to get compared to anime (we had the Disney princesses, I think that was it) The version on the cassette tape showed the uncensored one, and it wasn't until it showed up on TH-cam or TV that I noticed there was a another version that was cut. I don't have the tape anymore, it was a splice of multiple WB and disney shows. It mostly had Winnie the pooh, Darkwing duck, The animaniacs, Freakaziod, The tick, etc. Used to get them sent over from my uncle in the states. Good times.
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This was interesting to watch. I was 20 when ROTJ dropped. I discovered it from Wizard magazine
The hybrid version of the movie was shown around 2008/2009 for the Action Flicks block, not for the premiere
Your claim that Eric and Dylan liking games was significant is incredibly dishonest, especially since we know both were basically neo nazis
Hey! I’m kinda new to your channel, I was curious. What’s your stance on the various lantern corps?
13:01 Go figure that a bunch of clowns like at wb would want to force everyone to be treated like ''Children'' who watched their things. No thanks. +
The censored death was definitely just as horrific as watching him get shot, but knowing that Tim actually broke that one rule, makes his departure from the bat family even more impactful.
the fact that it had to be done twice is infuriating. i mean, i'm reasonably sure he didnt come up with that microchip plan early on in his career, leading to the safe assumption that if bruce had done him a long time ago, tim nor terry would have had to.
I don't blame Tim for killing the joker, he had tortured and kidnapped him what do you expect 🤷
I interpret the second one as also a murder, like he pushed Joker into a whole tube of broken glass, I don't think his plan was for the joker to live.
I don't know or care what from who on this at all. All I know is them adding the uncensored death scene for the TV airing is how I always remember seeing it as the flashback. As for opinion on it, the brutality should have been upped in every way. They didn't show bare tits, therefore it's PG-13 and who cares? And as always, let the bodies hit the floor of ground zero you fucking pansy asses.
That censored death was even more graphic than the gun shot version imo.
I definitely think of uncut as canon mostly just because it seems more to be what the writers/creators wanted and intended
Uh huh
Likewise.
As do I.
@@coyotedelamancha okokok
Obviously they wouldn't want a censored version to be what they originally had in mind if it was already animated beforehand
The fact even the people of Warner Brothers even acknowledge your standing as a DCAU expert is truly something.
The idea of Bruce going to Arkham and seeing Joker’s corpse still there just kinda….hanging out, would’ve been awesome and terrifying to see.
Agreed. That scene totally should have been made if you ask me. It sounded super cool.
It would have really fucked me up as a kid. And I already can’t watch it because the censored cut traumatized me
@@SamTalksNerdywtf? What are you, a piece of paper?
I do wonder if I can watch it now that I'm older LOL@@wulftheghost
@@wulftheghost Someone that belongs into Arkham.
With physical media diminishing, having the official uncut DVD feels sweeter than ever; one of my souvenirs from working at Blockbuster. Imo its the definitive version, maturing with the audience and showing the Joker fully unhinged like we never have seen before but always knew the potential was there.
I second that 💯
The idea of Joker dying twice to electricity is interesting, but it sort of feels like a parallel just for the sake of it. For me, I think Tim being the one to literally pull the trigger is just better, not only for how it affects him but also that Robin killing a villain is the kind of event that would break the family, at least more so than Joker accidentally killing himself because he was cavalier with childproofing his laboratory.
I didn't feel the electricity parallel was that on the nose. Joker being killed by his own gun and by Robin was, though. Robin was already affected and broken even without killing him. And the family was effectively broken by that, too. Dick was already gone, Tim wasn't coming back from this, and I could definitely see DCAU!Bruce refusing any sort of formal partner at that point, pushing Barbara away, because he'd feel he couldn't protect them.
Tim shooting Joker is a direct parallel of the Joker shooting Bonk, only this tine it serves the purpose of foreshawdowing who the Joker really is. When you watch it back you go "oh, the clues were right there!". The Joker being killed by his own hand isn't as detrimental. Tim completely breaking hits way harder. He killed intentionally killed someone. It shows that tye Joker really did break him, even if Tim turned against the Joker. The Joker won in the end.
Also the issue is the censored death is, in fact, funny
Of the two, Joker would prefer the Censored one.
1. It's more gruesome. He'd feel every bit of electricity.
2. It's poetic as he used it to destroy Robin and it was used against him.
3. He'd be more apeeled by the idea of slipping into his death like he stepped on a Banana Peel.
@@rennythespaceguy7285how's that an issue? After all Joker would like his death to be one of two ways.
1. Cause of Bats.
2. Something that ties into his Clown motif.
I think Tim Drake killing the Joker seems to be more tragic for that character and explain better why the Bat Family is so shaken after the events and why this version of Bruce is originally so against having kid sidekicks again.
This tim was essentially the BTAS jason todd
The Joker should have been killed years ago. How many people does he have to kill before you kill him?
@@notusedexer because theyve done it already and it always devolves to batman becoming another murdering batman like his gotham knight incarnation. Or the batman who laughs.
@@ZeroOmega-vg8nq there is justified killing and unjustified killing. To think that you go crazy after a justified killing is way more stupid than they should be.
@@notusedexer its doesnt matter what we think if its stupid batman has been written consistently that even if its justified he KNOWS he will just get worse. Even in injustice that batman pointed it out bout justified kills leading to wanton murder like supes did to billy
Tim Drake: "I see him... every night... His voice... His laugh... And the way he died..."
Terry: "And how did he die?"
Tim Drake: "That depends... Censored version or uncensored version?"
Terry: "Censored Version"
Tim Drake: "Electrocuted while he stepped on a puddle of water"
Terry: "Very funny, Tim. Now, how is the death of him in the censored version?"
Tim drake:that was his death in the censored version
Batman beyond:Jesus christ
Lol
Tim: "As for the Uncensored Version, I shot him with a gun he gave me to kill Bruce."
Terry: "Wait, wouldn't it be the other way around?"
@@mikebottomlesspitdunham2954 It is kind of funny that his death is more terrifying and gruesome in the censored version, but I think part of it was more so reducing Tim's culpability in the Joker's death from shooting him to pushing him and then the Joker accidentally killing himself because of it. Though I suspect a big part of it was a fixation on guns specifically too. Shooting a minion? Can't do that! Gas him and have his twitching body grinning eerily in what seems to be a fate worse than death? That's fine!
@@MalzraAirwynn I agree that it is funny. When I saw the differences and noticed them, I was like "How is that better for kids than that?"
Reeling at jokers reaction to being shot. Dying broke his persona, and he was scared at the end. He legit didn't see that coming and lost composure
That last part of the video explains why I remember seeing censored things but still the uncensored Joker death. Crazy
Same. I definitely remember the Joker getting shot, but I also remembered the lackey getting Joker gased.
same with me, seem we are the luck few to see the third edit movie
Yeah I was confused until the end.
I has a vhs that was partially censored as a kid, I remember it including the "peeled back the layers of the boys mind" line as well as the red graphitti and some blood but was otherwise the censored version.
You have actually cured me of a particular case of insanity. I thought I was remembering the Joker's death scene wrong. I swore that he was electrocuted, so when I saw the uncut version, I was like "WTF". So, thank you. Now I know there are two different versions out there.
I had the opposite experience. The first time I saw this I was like 7 didn’t see the censored version until I was an adult and I was like wtf I coulda sworn he got shot
I thought his dying by electrocution was a Mandela effect to lol, thought I was crazy 🤣
Funny enough as a kid the cut version always seemed darker, the uncut version he just get shot but in the other one, what you don't see is what makes it worse. In my mind was "oh he got burnt by electricity so bad they didn't even show it" imagination can be scarier.
yeah, in making it "kid friendly" they made something even more horrifying
dying from electrocution takes a lot longer then is allowed for humane rodent kill traps
The gun death is haunting (dread-filled) in its quietness.
The electrical death is haunting (terrifying) because of that damned scream...
And the fact that Joker died by slipping makes it deadly slapstick comedy which is how I feel Joker should die. lol
the ol’ timm method of “make the censored moment 10x worse” strikes again
I think the uncut version is canon since that was the original vision made. Also, it makes more sense for Tim to directly have killed Joker since it parallels Bruce being ashamed of pointing a gun in the first episode's opening scene. I imagine Tim Drake's shooting scene went through Bruce's mind in that moment and contributed to Bruce hanging up the cape.
That completely escaped me however I really appreciate your view!!
Also see I think it’s episode 4 or 5 of Batman Beyond, there’s a screen scroll by of Joker’s skeleton in the landfill with the hole in his suit and chest, like he was shot.
What I find ironic is that at one point Ace is watching the Looney Tunes cartoon "Hare Ribbin" which had its own censorship problems before its release for being too violent.
I was introduced to Batman Beyond with the “Return of the Joker” film my parents got it for me for Christmas back in 2001 on VHS still have it in my dad’s crib in Mississippi.
I actually like the Batmobile seatbelt. It simply makes sense for it to be there, more realistic. Plus, in a weird way, despite being such a small thing, in my opinion it makes Batman feel just that much more "prepared". Like it's yet another piece of everything he takes to battle, yet another contingency he's protected against.
I do love the shot of him landing in there and then the seatbelts shoot out
And them being absent on the Uncut version makes it jarring, considering the seatbelts already appeared a buncha times on the TV show.
I remember hearing somewhere that the seatbelts being re-added wasn't even a network decision, but rather an animation error that was caused by a misinterpretation of the storyboards being corrected.
Meaning that it was originally supposed to be there, or that it was originally not supposed to be there? I'm not sure I understand lol @@hudsonk1racer
i feel naked with out my seatbelt on lol i NEED that shit on in my car i also go 100 on the free way so WEEEEE
Weirdly enough, here in Brazil I only remember seeing the uncut version shown on tv when I was a kid, never the censored one. I'm very grateful it taught me not to play with guns, nor sir, only wet high-voltage cables for me. Best childhood ever.
Same here in Italy! Early 2000s, I saw it on tv and it definitely was the uncensored version, it was my first time watching something Batman related and I fell in love. I remember how cool the Bonk death was and to me is still one of the Joker's coldest moments ever hahah
Cara, eu (brasileiro tbm) lembro de locar e copiar a versão censurada. Que pela brutalidade da cena do coringa eletrocutado eu já achava q era a versão sem cortes.
Acho que todos os brs viram a versão sem censura na época que chegou aqui
Both Censored and Uncensored version were broadcasted everywhere
This is gonna sound insane, but this is the 1st time I've heard of an uncut version. When I got out of the Army in 02, I immediately bought the DVD of this movie and had watched it several times over the years. Eventually, when the Blu-ray box set was released, I bought that not knowing it contained the uncut version of the movie. It still remains sealed at home. As soon as I get home from work today, I'll be opening that up and watching this uncut version of the film. Very exciting.
Did you watch it yet?
How'd you like it
29:55 Yes, actually. I remember it airing on Cartoon Network. I distinctly remember the "Peel back the layers" of the Robin's mind line, but with the electrocution death of Joker
I watched the uncut version as a kid and the thing was back in the day, this kind of content was normal. If it was too intense for you, you simply didn't watch the show. The Batman Animated Series and Batman Beyond were definitely on the same level of PG 13 movies and never hid it. There are many haunting scenes. The one that stood out to this day is "Annie" from Batman Beyond. Jeez that was a gut punch at the end.
You mean "The New Batman Adventures"?
I am VERY glad I decided not to make a video about why Return of the Joker was censored as part of Batman Beyond’s 25th anniversary. You did a much better job than I could have!
One little tidbit that may interest you is that the European version of the Batman Beyond Blu-ray set came with a DVD copy of the censored version of Return of the Joker. At the time the only way to get the uncensored version in HD was to order the German blu-ray version, which I did (thankfully it’s all in English by default!)
Fingers crossed we get a 4K UHD version soon 🤞
Oh very cool!
Oh hey I know you
Ayy I love your content man!
@@thegreatacolyt1277 👋
@@TheKillerMoth 🙇♂️
I saw the edited version growing up, but that uncut version was stitched in my memory forever. Tim's story arc felt complete with him fighting the mind control, Joker's final line.
The animation when Bats and Joker are in the projection booth is amazing. Making sure the shadows line up and everything. Beautiful
Beyond was my favorite show as a kid and still is as an adult. I used to have an uncut VHS copy and my mom would tell me how special it is and now I can’t find it anywhere, but I hope it eventually turns back up.
As someone who watched the Uncensored version only, I remember recording the TV release. I can absolutely attest the Joker dying via Tim and the gun. It wasn't until this video did I realize the Joker dies via electrocution in the edited version. I do recall Tim Drake saying "It's a Doozy". I parroted that line for a long time. So I got that from the edited TV version. So wild that I never saw the full edited version before.
The uncut version is much better to me and has to be canon. Tim pulling himself together just long enough to do whatever he can to save his adoptive father, even if its something as unforgivable as killing, is powerful to me for some reason. And the gun joker uses to kill the one goon is the same as the one that killed him in this version, which i feel like it could be a hint at it being Tim before its told to us..
im also just angry at wb for thinking seeing Batman punch bad guys would make children want to go out and shoot people lol
Ding ding ding!
You get meaningful storytelling! Unlike WB execs.
Nevermind in episode 4 or 5 I think it shows Joker’s corpse in the Arkham ruins with the hole in his chest.
As much as I love the uncut version overall, I do kind of agree that the electrocution death in the censored version works really well. I actually think the animation is just a lot cleaner, and seeing the Joker disheveled and taken apart as he’s drenched in water creates this kind of rare image of him being “off his game” in a way that makes the death really work. We also get Batman’s smile at Tim throwing the gun away which is like… gut-wrenching, it’s a small thing but it’s such a show of emotion from Bruce, especially knowing his reaction in the aforementioned Earth-12 comics where Bruce talks abt “a gun being a gun no matter who uses it.” Ultimately both versions work but there is a lot about the censored cut that I think works really well and is overlooked because it’s not THE grittiest, most violent version that some ppl gravitate towards. At the same time though, there’s definitely something to be said for the crew getting to have their original vision intact, so as mentioned in the video, getting an HD release of both versions on one disc would be the best of both worlds.
I feel it's more of a dynamic end than him just getting shot.
Even having that third version which has the whole censored version except for the flashback, as that pretty much fixes both the canon of the Joker's death being fitting for the crew's vision but also keeping all the fixed animation and continuity that the censored allowed them to revisit from the original, uncut version.
In my opinion, being electrocuted like that is a worse death than getting shot. But having Tim pull the trigger is much more traumatic for him. In my perfect universe, there would be a fusion of both versions. Have Time fire the gun, but have the bullet hit a non lethal spot. Joker would stumble back into the torture room, hit the container of water, slip, and then electrocute himself
@@TAMAMO-VIRUS That's actually pretty much what I had Mandella Effected myself into remembering, actually, lol 😅! But either way, Tim still pushes Joker into the vial of water, so he still kinda helped cause his death, sure Joker flipped the switch, but that wasn't nearly as purposeful of an action as pushing Joker into the water. Joker only flipped the switch accidentally on instinct.
But tim killing him was a huge part of his arc
@15:28-15:34
Vegeta: *"Too bad it's Sunday, because those buildings would have been filled up by now!"*
When Napa blew up the helicopter and Tien said I can see their parachutes from here
Personally, i prefer the uncut version, as it's more of a razor thin moment for Tim, only just barely breaking through to save his father!
I’ve seen the uncut version circulated so often I didn’t even KNOW that Joker death scene had an alternate take. And it’s even MORE brutal with him being ELECTROCUTED, and that was somehow LESS violent for the execs? WH AT
I feel like the uncut version is THE version for me. shout out to the crew for making an absolute masterpiece, same goes for the makers of this video 😉
I think if you fused the two versions, it would be the best of both worlds. The censored cut of Jokers death haunted me a bit more than the un-cut version did.
I definitely go with the uncut as the true canon version. For one thing, it was already produced before cuts were ordered (unlike say, "Robin's Reckoning", where they already had limitations in place and knew they had to somehow show the Graysons dying without explicitly showing it). Another thing too for me, is that thematically it just means more that Robin straight up kills The Joker. Seeing him actually commit the murder adds to the understanding of how the trauma affects him even as an adult; he has a sense of guilt over it, despite the horrible things done to him. However with the censored version, Joker merely slips and kills himself. While Tim is still rightfully traumatized by what Joker did to him, there is pall over Joker's death that's lost because it was an accidental one, and not one explicitly caused by Tim/Robin himself. It just simply means more with the uncut version to me.
Basically, that's TV Tropes' YMMV "Wangst" topic for the film.
To be honest, as a fan based in India, oddly enough the uncut version was the only one telecasted here in India on Cartoon Network way back in 2005. I was only 8 when I watched it for the first time on a Sunday afternoon. As a result, I had known the original version for the most of my life until my college years when I came to know about the edited cut while going for a re-watch.
My original copy of the film was a screener copy on VHS, so the uncut death is what's canon in my mind. I used to have arguments with my friends all the time, because they said the Joker was electrocuted, and I insisted he was shot. We finally watched my copy during a sleepover, and they were so confused by how different my copy of the film was. I also played the Return of the Joker PS1 game until it stopped working. xD
Hey, brazilian guy here. I think MAYBE they released the "third cut" as the "international version" because I remember Nana Harley with black and red clothes, the laughing gas part, but I have never ever in my life seen the "joker gets eletrocuted" bit. Keep in mind that I have only seen the movie on TV, I have never rented it or bought it otherwise.
While I prefer the uncensored cut, I still wish the censored cut would get an HD release just for the sake of film preservation since it is still a part of the DCAU's creative history.
Same!
See, I want an uncensored/Censored dual HD DVD release. That way people can easily compare them.
I like the Tim shooting him version, because he gets the last laugh so to speak, with his parting line.
That poster and box cover really bothered me because everyone knows the Joker _isn't green faced!!_
I don't blame you. But I was more confused than bothered to be honest. Referencing the Man Who Laughs poster went over so many heads.
I remember watching the censored version as a kid and do recall seeing some sort of ad somewhere for the Original Uncut version. I don't remember if it was a video ad or a print ad. but I know I saw an ad cause that's what made me go to my local Target and use my allowance to buy the DvD. It was the first DVD I ever bought and the first thing I ever got signed at my first convention. I met Kevin Conroy in 2010 and he was delighted to sign my copy and informed me it was his proudest work as Batman.
HBO kids use to air the uncut version all the time
29:52 It's a relief you were able to confirm a mixed version. For most of the video I was was confused why I only knew the shooting death but some of the cut differences were not aligned with what I recalled, and I've only seen it on TV. Like I remember that DeeDee cofrontation being abrupt. Though my memory is mixed on that "Bonk" part, the "we're with you" and corpse drag seem familiar.
I love the animation fixes in the censored version but there’s something about the uncut version of Joker’s death that I appreciate so much more, maybe because it gives Tim actual agency in the story rather than being a victim twice over. He gets to be a hero, of a sort, one more time by breaking through his trauma and finally ending the Joker’s evil
I remember I saw the death of the Joker sequence in 2007 or 2008 in the very early days of TH-cam. I then found the uncut version on DVD and watched the hell out of it. I think the flashback sequence is better than the rest of the movie, although the rest is still fairly well-conceived. I prefer the uncut version because the censored version was clearly butchered and feels edited while you watch it. As far as I’m concerned, this is the definitive death of the Joker.
For me it was Terry getting in Joker’s head fighting dirty and cracking jokes at him. He was defiantly NOT Batman and STILL beating him.
Just wanted to say love these videos, man. I'm 31 now, and the DCEU was a staple of my childhood growing up. I've introduced BTAS and STAS so far to my 8 year old boy, and he loves them. I'm glad to see this universe of related shows/comics is still getting love. Keep up the great content.
Thank you!
My kids were blown away watching the uncensored version with me on WB Backlot’s TH-cam channel actually.
They also love man bear pig so… I think I’m doing an ok job as a dad?
There is also the Greek TV version. Which is the censored version of the Censored version. The Joker's death scene by electrocution is a static shot of Tim's face. The space laser scene is completely Cut..... terry just lands the Batmobile. And the Batcave scene ,where terry finds bruce, is also completely Cut. It's short as hell with horrendous greek voice acting 😂
The Frankenstein version is canon, it gives Joker and Tim the canon death flashback, but has all the quality of life edits like Batman actually using seatbelts, which I think is equally as important to promote in media to children as any other message, real life safety first.
I was in a video store. Suncoast, actually, not long after the edited version came out. I overheard this kid saying "I heard the Joker really stabbed Batman!" That was the first I'd heard of an uncensored version. I later bought it on DVD and although the special features were cool. It was the same cut. Didn't see it uncensored until the 2010s
I think the the uncensored cut is the definitive version. Jokers death just hits harder after "That's not funny" and than seeing Tim break down crying, chefs kiss. (The story not a small kid crying after he murdered somebody)
I think the uncut version is the canon version, but in some ways I think Joker's death in the censored version is more horrific as it's more exaggerated and Hamil's scream sounds so painful. Plus with the actual death being off screen the imagery is left to the imagination which is more impactful. Regardless of which version it was that I watched growing up (almost assuredly the censored one), that image of Tim on the table, post-transformation, was burned into my brain and always stuck with me as something horrific. The only thing more horrific was the N64 video game adaptation of this game. I wonder if anyone has played that game for long enough to see if it aligns more with the censored or uncut version of the movie.
The uncut is the original so it is obviously canon.
If nothing else, the silver lining of this whole fiasco is that we got to see some genuine ingenius ways the writers and animators got around "derek"'s shenanigans.
Definitely prefer the uncut version but I go over and back as to which death is better. It's amazing that they were so harsh on this movie with cuts when Beyond is already such a dark show - the nerve gas in the pilot is far more grisly and haunting than anything in this movie imo.
Fun fact - while the comic book adaptation mostly followed the censored version, one small clue to the original cut remains: the line "Tim DID shoot him" is said by Barbara (I think) despite not making any sense in the censored version of the story.
I tend to think of the uncut version as canon, but there is a part of me that actually prefers the Joker’s censored death more on a thematic level.
Yes, he put Tim through horrible trauma - but he didn’t ultimately break him in the “one bad day” sense. Despite all he put Tim through, despite arguably breaking him - he didn’t turn him into a killer.
Tim was still strong enough to defiantly toss the gun aside, and while he did push the Joker into the tank of water - I wouldn’t say he is to blame for the Joker’s death.
I suppose a big part of the preference comes from whether or not you like Joker getting in a “win” in spite of his demise - I like that in the censored cut, he doesn’t get that win. Tim doesn’t “cross that line”, even to save Bruce. Joker fails to make Robin a killer like him, and at the end of the epic confrontation? His death is a result of an accident. A pratfall.
To paraphrase Batman: Arkham City, that death actually is pretty funny.
That's completely fair! I always preferred the shooting ending, but you just gave me an insight that helped me see why the electrocution version if the death has its merit.
Fair argument.
I feel uncut is canon, but that electrocution scream is pretty haunting and it was the first version so i still enjoy it immensely.
How can you see the uncut version
@@Lulu-ew7ohHBO Max
I have a dentist appointment today.
Thankfully the Watch Tower Database uploaded, making today a lot better.
I remember getting it on DVD as a kid back in the mid to late 2000s. It was the uncut version, so seeing all the censored scenes was weird because I watched it a lot. For the longest time, I had NO IDEA that there was a censored version until now.
Until seeing this video, I had no idea there was a censored version at all so the title confused me. I remember watching it for the first time (as well as several weekend re-runs) on Toonami as a kid which at the time was the "older kid" portion of Cartoon Network on British TVs that came on for a few hours a day before it got spun off to it's own channel. The film was one of - if not _the_ first time I watched a piece of animation that felt really different (and didn't turn out to be anime once I was old enough to understand the concept of foreign media). I couldn't have even been 10 at the time but I absolutely loved the brutality of the story beats, how much more mature it was than everything else I'd been watching. To this day, I still haven't committed murder so take that and file it away in your statistics folder, WB exec Derek.
Toonami was such a vibe back in the day. I couldn’t wait to watch Zatch Bell 😩🥲
@@JustHereForCats Tell me about it. Toonami is what introduced me to Outlaw Star, the first anime I watched that got me to understand there was something different going on with these cartoons. It'd take a few more years before I'd understand the "these are Japanese" thing though.
@@daggern15 that’s so awesome! That’s about what happened to me, too!!! And I’ve been a fan of foreign media ever since. I read a lot of manhwa 🤣🤣
@@JustHereForCats I didn't know about manhwa for a really long time. On a similar subject though, I was absolutely baffled when I learnt Cubix was Korean.
@@daggern15 wait, it is?! That’s insane, and I’m going down that rabbit hole sometime soon 🤣🤣
Yeah, I got into WEBTOON years ago… I learned a lot about the medium that way. I’m actively reading like a couple dozen manhwa on there lol
Question of the Day: I definitely consider the uncensored version to be the canon one. It was the version that the team showed to everyone (prior to Derek coming in with a pair of comically large scissors). It was the one they always intended to release. Therefore, the only logical answer is that the censored version is (in my best James impression) NOT CANON! I also personally like the original better. It's darker and more mature, and that's what I prefer in animated content. Censored is certainly still dark, but I don't feel it's as dark.
Personally, I think Censored Cut adds something to the movie. For one, the correction of mistakes, the costume changes, and the death scene elevate the movie for me. Joker dying by electrocution *Twice* is Pretty ironic and, dare i say it, funny.
I also kinda like a few of the dialogue changes. "Ice Batman" goes a lot harder than "Kill Batman".
I do like some of the dialogue changes, but there are some that i don’t like. Like Changing “Killer” to “Doosie” seems very unnecessary. And the action getting toned down is quite disappointing. I want a “build a movie” so we can have the best of both worlds. Most of the dialogue and action can stay the same, while we keep the positive dialogue changes and the new death scene.
I’ll also say, i think, as a whole, the original is stronger. It’s what the creators intended.
I swear this channel has the least paid-for feeling ads.
Lol, I never realized the VHS uncensored copies were bootlegs. I watched this movie on a copy that was uncensored on VHS and while the box was fine. The tape was marked not for resale within the movie and part way through cut to a warning that said it was a not for resale copy
Oooo! I did see that TV version with the "that's not... Funny" line still in! I will have to aquire the uncut for a rewatch.
Uncut is the way to go! It was the only animated thing that made my family stop what they were doing as soon as it had the flashback scene on. I remember I bought it on DVD after I saw the first Tobey McGuire Spider-Man . that was a great Superhero movie day !
I'd have to go with the uncut version. To me the joker saying something isn't funny as his dying words is perfect. It also has its own mirror moment in that's the same way joker killed Bonk.
I think the uncut version is the Canon. But both joker death are kinda cool
That’s a hard question because when I think back to the movie I always remember the censored death but the uncut one just hits better and feels like Robin was able to do what Batman never could and the emotional turmoil he has to deal with for the rest of his life makes his reluctance to help Terry not just a plot twist but an emotional flashback to possibly the worst moment of his life. Regardless of how evil Joker was he still took a human being from this earth by his own hands, not a domino effect of accidents.
While I wasn’t aware of the Issues in the Production at the Time, I still consider Return of the Joker One of my Favorite DC Movies that I would watch on again, although the Uncut Version is Canon.
I’ve always thought that it would be cool to see a reverse Frankenstein cut. One where the Flashback sequence is the Cut version (honestly, Joker’s “That’s not funny line” probably should have been something like “Robin shot me…now THAT’S hilarious!”) with the rest of the flick being uncut.
Also, Batman pulling the lever to shut and lock the door, ripping it off the mechanism, and ready to fight Joker? Easily my favorite moment in all of the DCAU.
Arkham Joker would manically laugh while looking directly at Batman knowing his place in history is secure and also the chip he put in Tims brain skull
I happen to have One of those double sided dvds that once Ed returned the Joker on it and it happens to be the censored/cut version Which let's be honest once you've watched the uncut version it's very difficult to watch the original release because you can see where all the little cuts are.
in my opinion, a Frankenstein version of this film would probably be the most fitting, the most "canon" to me. Keep nearly all of the uncensored cut, and add back in the seatbelts and aptly colored old harley. Have Bonk's death be the Laughing Gas/twitching death. Add in a finished version of the cut Arkham Scene before the club scene with Dana.
And here's where things get interesting. Have *both* flashback Joker deaths be canon. Have Tim shoot Joker, who flies backwards and sputters a "That's not funny", before getting up and yelling at JJ, who throws the gun to the side, "That's not funny at all!". Joker takes the flag out of his chest, and he and Tim mirror each other as they both charge at each other, leading finally, to a bloodier version of the censored cut's Joker death.
Bam! Perfection!
"I'm going to be 9-years-old forever..."
As my dad taught me: You _have_ to grow old. You don't _have_ to grow up. 😊
That 3rd version was the one shown to us in south America in the Warner Channel back in the day
The Uncut version of the film is the canon film for me since it was the sole reason I got into the DCAU as a kid. My memory has always been wonky when it came to the DCAU but from what I can remember and what my older sister has told me. We always watched the film here and there when she felt like spending time with me. Plus seeing Joker get what he deserved from Tim was always poetic in my opinion.
I think I remember seeing it uncut on cartoon network as a kid when they showed it once( might have misremembered).
The production quality of the videos on this channel is phenomenal. I used to run a website back in the late 90s / early 00s called ‘Batman UK’ and was lucky enough to be sent a copy of the screener version on VHS. I remember how surprised everyone was to hear about the changes. The UK release of the Batman Beyond blu-ray set contains the censored version of ROTJ but it’s a DVD.
So we've been told! That's very cool. And hey! I think I remember your site. Thank you for the kind words, and for watching!
Wore out a vhs of this as a kid loved this , agree Brian must view this twice for the podcast lols
The fact that the WB execs thought "bat-coot" sounded less suss than "bat-fart" is crazyy
Saw in the comments someone putting the parallel of Tim shooting Bonk and shooting Joker. Terry has to be a detective when Bruce can’t be anymore, he has to piece together the clues from the batcave. We as the viewer have this bonus clue to help us out, and for many viewers, they still haven’t worked it out by the end plot twist. That’s how you know the writing is good here.
Finally been waiting for a video on this topic since I started watching you guys in 2017 with the censored and uncensored comparison for this movie
7 years in the making. Worth the wait
As someone who lived in Colorado during Columbine, I understood the concerns some may have with media violence, but felt it wasn't necessary towards Return of the Joker. I was a teen when the film was launched( and during Columbine), and figured the demographic was more toward older audiences, considering the tone of the show. However, I have watched and shown my younger cousins the film( uncut) which they had no problems with it whatsoever. They knew Joker was a menace and wasn't playing around but also acknowledge Terry would be the perfect foil to a villain used to Bruce! In short, despite tragedy being a possible means for censorship, you should never underestimate kids who understand what's taking place in a film vs reality.
I thought the video said the kidswb exec wanted to air the movie on a Saturday morning. They were horrified at what they saw and asked for changes only for it to go to waste since it did not air on that block. Kidswb had the most notorious censors back in the day. They literally caused the pokemon dub to stop saying the word bomb and change it to "blaster balls..." Etc
Geez.....I was 7, when Batman Beyond was around.
I was 6 years old when this came out, my family wasnt especially well off at the time so id only get a few movies a year and we didnt have cable, so i remember watching this movie probably every other day when i got home from school. I absolutely loved batman and thought the new younger batman was so freaking cool. God i miss how simple life was as a kid. I was so happy just watching the same thing over and iver again, now i get angry if i get the same ad twice in one video. Lol
18:43 The censored version of the Joker's death is still pretty good. Him slipping and accidentally electrocuting himself seems like the type of on-brand, slapstick humor associated with the character. It reminds me of that scene from The Dark Knight where just after the Joker crawls out of the overturned semi-truck, when he attempts to get to his feet, he stumbles back down while accidentally letting off a burst of gunfire from his machine gun.
The censored and uncensored DVDs also had their own completely different commentary tracks. So not only did these guys have to rush to made these changes, they ALSO had to go back and record a new commentary track covering a lot of the same information, since the edits had changed the runtime. I remember in one Bruce Timm did an impression of Mark Hamill when recalling something he said and in the other one he just plainly said what Hamill had said with out doing an impression. (I don't remember which was which or what he was quoting.)
Although I remember getting the censored version and then learning about this legendary uncensored version (that I thought at the time I would never get to see), I never heard the "Columbine" explanation until fairly recently (perhaps from your earlier video).
I got the VHS when it came out, then later upgraded it to a DVD before the uncensored version was released. I didn't notice the edits and only later learned of an uncensored version having once existed. (I don't remember exactly how I learned of this.) My brother imported a Japanese DVD of the movie, just assuming that Japan would get the uncensored version since there TV censorship was much more lax than in the US. But alas, it was the same edited version, except the title was changed to "Batman of the Future: Return of the Joker", and had an additional Japanese language track.
Then my brother downloaded the uncut version from somewhere on the internet. I think it had burned-in Korean subtitles.
I definitely prefer the uncut version, but it would be good to have both versions available, or at least the altered scenes as bonus features.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as not initially questioning the original censored release of the movie if any of us were still kids at the time (when as WB's own intended demographic for the movie we were never supposed to anyway), only to be granted the uncut version later and discovering how much more we enjoy the movie now with age *because* the story of what Joker did to Tim in the past is so dark and messed up while really hitting you hard with how twisted this clown truly is. Even if the Columbine incident hadn't been a factor in the movie's censorship it always would have been a safe assumption that it was due to a higher-up WB exec deciding it was "too much for the kiddies we want to sell this movie to".
I'm of a very similar mind when it comes to Forever as its initial 1995 release will always have a sentimental value to me as my first live-action Batman movie, but the more I learn over the years about Schumacher having had a longer, darker cut of the movie at one point the more I just think to myself how "I really wanna watch *that* version now" over the one that needed to be released under any stricter family friendly mandate from WB.
For my QOTD answer I, like a lot of other fans here, would have to consider the uncut version canon knowing it was always the cut of the movie that Timm & Crew had initially made and wanted to be seen before all of the changes that they had to do.
Great episode, James and crew. I just showed this film to my boyfriend and he also loved it. Damn that Derek and execs like him. Such a frustrating story, the way he screwed with that crew so coldly and then WB didn't even market it. Well, we all know it's a classic now.
I always thought that "Bonk" being gased and then pretty much laughing himself to death was more gruesome than getting a dart in his chest.
Great Video.
You're dead on about the uncut version being released silently.
Funny story but I managed to get my hands on it day 1 because A friend of mine worked at Futureshop and gave me a heads up about a new batman animated movie coming out, even though I was a HUGE batman beyond fan I had somehow missed the OG version of the movie. So, when I started talking to some of the guys who have seen the original version they basically told me that I should stop sniffing glue. So being guys I had them drop by and watch the movie and everyone's mind was blown.
As someone who didn't have easy access to Kid's WB at the time, Cartoon Network was simply how I watched Batman Beyond. Meaning that I have never seen the censored version. And yes, someone should do a hybrid edit splicing in the Censored version's corrections into the Uncensored version. I want to see Nana Harley in Red and Black, dang it!
A Hybrid edit would be pretty cool.
Granted, Harley not wearing black and red anymore makes sense on a "I regret ever wearing this crap" perspective.
Yeah, I don't even remember a censored version.
The first time I saw the film was on TV and was the third version which had certain censorships but the uncensored flashback. Bear in mind it was also dubbed in Greek because I live in Greece. Not too long after that I got the English version, specifically the original version without the censorship, and watched it about 20 times. In my opinion this film is Mark Hamill's best and most terrifying ever performance as the Joker.
Was the Greek dub good?
@@thevenom2731 Wasn't bad but there were some weird deliveries. However one of the best dubs I have ever seen in my life was of the Batman Superman movie which was the World's Finest episodes combined. I hate to say it but I may even prefer it to the English version.
Mentioning the Mandela Effect is quite poignant because watching this, at least until you got to the part where the uncut version WAS released, I was wondering why I had memories of BOTH versions... 🙀
It was only a couple of years ago or so that I watched the uncut version, and with all the differences I was thinking it was maybe a remaster/update of the story. That's a relief... it means I'm still crazy, but not crazi-ER. 😁
Either way, I see them BOTH (like most stories) as canon. Just in different worldlines. I've been a fan of the Multiverse ever since the Flash of Two Worlds. After all, two things can both be true at once! 😂
Funny you mentioned the Mandela Effect because I only remember seeing the uncut (death by gun) on TV when I was younger. I know it was airing live on TV at the time I was young and before TH-cam. I never heard of the censored version till now. Maybe instead of Kids WB, I was watching on Cartoon Network but I don't remember it airing on that. I do know I only knew about the death by gun version though.
28:47 I need to see if I can find my VHS copy of Batman Beyond. It was the cut version of the movie.. Really hope it's still in my boxes.
I remember having the VHS copy of this when I was about 4 (2005 or so) and I'm so happy that I was able to see it. I have no idea how or why my family ended up with it but it's a miracle that it did. Thank you to the entire team behind my favorite movie.
Despite the smooth moves by banana heels Joker, I gotta say Uncut is cannon. It's what the artists intended and the studio is onboard because they no longer service the censored version. It's out of print and on purpose! They don't even stream it. (Then again Goofy's "Motor Mania" isn't on Disney+ but I digress.)
Perhaps eventually.....
Warner Archive can release both versions on Blu-Ray. Would be fitting as they have been killing it on the animation department lately
I prefer the uncut version as canon, but I will say Joker's scream off-camera when he dies in the censored version is fucking haunting and I love it. This was a comfort movie for me growing up, rewatching it over and over again all the time, thanks for doing another video on it!
Just bought a blu-ray copy of it today, I hope they make a 4K remaster like some of the older Batman animated movies
Personally for me, this movie is core memory but not just for it's quality. This was the movie my parents rented my 10 year old self on 9/11 to keep me in my room and away from the news. Of course, I snuck and looked at the news anyway. I imagine if development had been a year later on the timeline, we wouldn't have gotten the batmobile laser sequence...
Added bonus for using 'Derek'...
You get to use a couple of the correct letters from the uncut version of what that person was...
NOW I NEED THAT SCENE OF JOKER'S CORPSE
Read the comic book adaptation of the movie for one. *"I KNOW."*
This proves that censorship can be a real bitch, and a pain to real artists. But it can be helpful to keep both the cut and uncut versions in archieves.
The dialogue before the Joker's death changed too. His instructions to Tim Drake were edited.
Uncut: Now, deliver the punchline!
Censored: Now, make him (Batman) one of us!
Ironically the censored version sounds more menacing than the uncut version 😂
A super super early hint at "The Batman who Laughs"??
Nah, probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if the creators of that story took SOME inspiration from that line of thinking, and this plot thread in general.
I remember watching Batman Beyond growing up in Thailand, I had just moved to the country for the 1st time with my mom back in 1995. You don't have to believe me, but I was only able to watch this movie on a video cassette tape in the early 2000s. Dvds existed, but not this movie. At the time, Western animations, including disney and Warner Bros., was much harder to get compared to anime (we had the Disney princesses, I think that was it)
The version on the cassette tape showed the uncensored one, and it wasn't until it showed up on TH-cam or TV that I noticed there was a another version that was cut.
I don't have the tape anymore, it was a splice of multiple WB and disney shows. It mostly had Winnie the pooh, Darkwing duck, The animaniacs, Freakaziod, The tick, etc. Used to get them sent over from my uncle in the states. Good times.