Like most of us I grew up with the mesoamerica model. I had a solid testimony of the book of Mormon but the strange hill cumorah theories were testimony challenging rather than promoting, I had more questions than answers. When first hearing the heartland model my mind was put to rest completely on the matter, it feels right to me. Thank you for the work you do.
100% I totally agree with your statement. I feel totally at peace with the Heartland model especially since it totally aligns with Ether and Moroni’s statements about this land being a land of liberty and freedom. My heart and mind are at peace with the heartland
Thanks for the encouragement. Rod is awesome and when he first told me about the Heartland 12 years ago, I was also excited. Of course my spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon has been strong for over 40 years, but understanding geography and translation and other non-doctrinal ideas has been additional second evidence for me. I believe as Moroni said, I may know the truth of all things in due time.
@@Pay-It_Forward believe it or not my testimony actually increased when I came across anti arguments, yes I was a little bothered by it and confused but I didn't waste time dwelling on it. I almost immediately made the decision to pray about it. I went out to a nearby field and prayed repeatedly late into the night. My answer came in the morning, the most powerful and sacred experience of my life. Please don't let your eternal welfare hang on the CES letter, you're better than that.
@@richardtong3099 Actually, there is CES levels of evidence against the origins of both Christianity & Judahism. If Judahism was fake & Christianity is also fake, Mormonism can't be a restoration. And there is no evidence that good feelings from prayer, is spiritual knowledge. The CES letter is only the tip of a giant iceberg of evidence. It shouldn't be dismissed.
Another thing to consider is how the land changed at the time of the crucifixion. It seems reasonable to me that the lake levels could have dropped and other geographical shifts etc. could have occurred at or around that time. Of course, the land will shift however and whenever the Lord commands it so.
When I was 16 I had a subscription to the Popular Mechanics and there was an article in there about a pipeline firm that was trenching in a pipeline across Northern New York and they ran into piles of Human bones with their trencher. no-one else has brought that up. So I believe that is pertinent to the Book of Mormon.
There is a book entitled Antiquities of the State of New York. It talks about skeletons found in Upper NYS in the late 1700 and early 1800. There were referred to as bone pits because they were mass graves.
Public school has messed us all up… When we are speaking of the seven continents of the earth as a whole, then from Panama to Greenland is all “North America” But when we zero in on the “two” continents of North and South America, all of a sudden we speak of four different sections, not two: •Greenland •the USA •Central America •South America So “technically” North America is only the USA and Canada, and then there are still two “America” sections left, as well as the unconnected land of Greenland… this explains why it is so easy for some to become totally confused It all depends upon the topic of each conversation…
If you’re going to put the American flag, you should also put the Canadian flag because things happened up there as well. Remember, there were no borders or flags such as the ones we have now and also remember the geography has changed slightly. For instance, rivers, hills, etc.
Rod, I just watched you on Greg Madsen's CWIC show. That was great! Can you let me know all the details about of your Kirkland and church history tour? We have Spring break here in Utah the first week of April. Can you let me know all the details? Thank you!!!
"When I prepared to leave Toronto following the concluding dedicatory session, I gazed upward toward heaven, that I might offer a silent prayer of gratitude to God for His watchful care, His bounteous blessings and for “days never to be forgotten.” High above the gleaming white temple, which personifies purity and reflects righteousness, is the gold-leafed statue of the Angel Moroni. I remembered being told that from that height of 105 feet, on a clear day one can see all the way to Cumorah. I noted that in Moroni’s hand was his familiar trumpet. He was gazing homeward-homeward to Cumorah." Days Never to Be Forgotten By President Thomas S. Monson October 1990
I love the quote. Here is also what Pres Monson also said. "The Lord gave a divine promise to the ancient inhabitants of this favored country (the United States): ‘Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12). “Our Heavenly Father inspired the leaders of…the United States of America, that they might together, under His direction, having been raised up by God for the purpose, establish the Constitution of this country and…Bill of Rights, that by the year of our Lord 1805 [there would be] a climate where our Heavenly Father could send into this period of mortality a choice spirit who would be known as Joseph Smith, Jr.” Teachings of Thomas S. Monson 2011 (Ordained an Apostle, 1963; ordained President of the Church, 2008)
I shared some quotes in another discussion area fro Temple Dedications in Mexico, Central and South America, by Gordon B. HINKEL, Spencer W. Kimball and others saying that the majority of those people had the blood of Lehi, and the area was part of the promised land, just to be told they were wrong by heartlanders
I don't think anyone has ever said they were wrong. The descendants of the Lamanites, and other nations noted in the Book of Mormon had plenty of time to disseminate throughout the entirety of the hemisphere. It does not have to be the "either or" scenario that both camps tend to believe about each other. @@BrianTerrill
@@kz6fittycent why did I get tagged in this, I don't have qn either or argument about the Book of Mormon people, just that Zarahemla and lands mention in the Book of Mormon can't be in the Heartland.
Howdy Guy's, keep up the good work, and I'll be even happy to hear when we get to the point where the 1,350 yrs. of the Jaredites Civilization cover all the land and even diffuses or intersects the Olmecs, Toltecs timelines, and the Hebrew carvings and imagery are interlaced into their wider cultures. I love the work we are doing. and the re-emergence of these truths that seem to slip away so easily. Like the trickling waters in the desert sands. ~Jaysonian Man
So when Nephi's boat landed on the west coast, 61 year old (Lehi & Sariah) walked 2,000 miles by foot over the Rocky Mountains before pitching their tent?
Lehis boat likely landed in Florida. This is where the Historic Hopewell Civilization began in 600 BC, which I believe Hopewell are the Nephites. Hopewell ended near NY in 400 AD according to most secular historians. Sounds like the Nephites to me.
The south American model NEVER fit my RLDS teachings in the early 70's. Then there's the prophecy's that the land would be a beacon of liberty, flowing with milk and honey. The heartland model settles it for me.😊
Joseph Smith in September 15, 1842, issue of the Times and Seasons: ("These wonderful ruins of Palenque are among the mighty works of the Nephites."; "Nephites...lived about the narrow neck of land, which now embraces Central America")--Joseph Smith was editor.
Do the research. Joseph did not author those articles. Those articles were signed "ED" meaning editor, but Joseph had said earlier that anytime he wrote an article that he would sign it Joseph Smith. Also at the time these articles came out, Joseph was in hiding across the Mississippi in Montrose Iowa as Governor Biggs had issued an arrest order for him. Most scholars today agree that Joseph did not author these articles.
@@ScottAndersen-m9f Joseph never issued a retraction or rebuttal. Every (Prophet & Apostle) since then has echoed that theme. Ancient America Speaks was approved by the 1st Presidency & paid for by the Church & used for missionary work for decades.
Jonathan addressed the potential reason Joseph didn't recant these Meso promotion articles in his book The Lost City of Zarahemla. And all the former promotion of Mesoamerica has now been removed from all editions of the book by later presidencies.
There were a great many mounds in the Detroit area. once upon a time the definitely was a great city there, but almost all have been destroyed. There is even a giant mound rivaling the size of chahokia, near nearly noone talks about not even wayne may, in Michigan on the west side on lake Michigan , near grand rapids.
Simply go to our website at www.bookofmormonevidence.org and click on the bookstore. Scroll to the maps book and we'll send it right out! Thanks for your interest.
I finally came to the conclusion in 2022 that the BoM took place in the eastern part of the U.S. - no one converted me. Adam was in Missouri, the Promised Land…. When God sent Lehi and others to the Promised Land, they did not go to Guatemala, Mexico or Central America! Because the Promised Land will be a land of liberty, free from all other nations, and all nations would flow unto it. Guatemala does not fit this mold or the others. Lehi did not go to a 3rd world country, he was taken to the Promised Land.
Mesoamerica makes more sense to me but I appreciate the effort to expand and explain the Heartland theory I disagree with the implications of some of the interpretation of prophetic statements being described. I don't think nephi put boundaries on his visions and the descendants of the nephites could have been all over America by the time the Europeans arrived so I don't think the prophesies can prove a geographic location. I am more intrested in geographic correlations in the text which align with cultural, geological and technological descriptions all of which align more closely in mesoamerica than in north america.
3 Essential Truths about Nephite Observance of the Law of Moses “First Truth: Not only did the Nephites “strictly” keep the law of Moses (as indicated in 37 verses in the Book of Mormon (see Alma 30:3, Mosiah 13:29-30, Jarom 1:5), but they did so with delight as it was seen by them as both a collection of types of Christ and a means of coming unto Him. Occasionally even the Lamanites were known to “strictly” observe the law (Hel. 13:1). Second: In "observing to keep the commandments of the Lord in all things, according to the Law of Moses" (2 Ne. 5:10), the Nephites would have necessarily observed all the feasts or "holy days” given to Moses by Jehovah. These are recorded in Exodus and Leviticus and are known as “holy convocations” or "rehearsals" and they typify the life and mission of Jesus Christ in profoundly beautiful ways. Third: It was absolutely essential for these Jewish Lehites to be brought to a land that would provide an abundance of all the plants and animals required to keep the Law of Moses, with its concomitant Holy Days or festivals. Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert
Read Alma 22:32 very carefully. "And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half's fourney for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the EAST to west sea;" not the east sea to the west sea. What Alma is depicting is the boundary between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation. That said, I strongly agree from years of analyzing Book of Mormon geography that Lake Erie is the best fit for the west sea, that Lake Ontario is the best fit for the east sea (or perhaps Seneca Lake), and that the narrow neck if land is the straight between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario separating the land northward (southern Ontario) from the land southward (western New York). I see the line Bountiful as the Niagara Escarpment, which indeed runs from the east to the west sea (Lake Erie). I put the city Zarahemla on the Genesee River just north of Letchworth State Park. This does not mean the site across the Mississippi River from Nauvoo where Joseph Smith organized a Stake and named it in honor of Zarahemla isn't a possible ancient city once inhabited by people who were either descendants of Lehi, or influenced by the culture. They may have even built a temple.
That is an interesting observation. I have always felt that the city of Zarahemla was located near the town of Niagara-on-the-Lake which is on the west bank of the Niagara River (River Sidon) near its mouth. The Niagara runs north with its headwaters only 40 miles away. Lake Ontario would be the Sea East. Lake Erie the South Sea. Lake Huron the West Sea, and The Georgian Bay the North Sea. The Niagara Peninsula is the narrow neck of land that could be crossed in a day and a half (25 miles wide). The BofM tells us that tens of thousands of dead soldiers were tossed into the River Sidon rather than buried and are "in the depths of the sea (Lake Ontario). Southeastern Ontario is the land northward which Mormon tells us is a "land of many lake and rivers." 40% of all Canadians live in southeastern Ontario. The land southward is the land of Nephi which Joseph Smith said was the Ohio Valley. Most of the Hopewell archeological sites are in the Ohio Valley.
IMO Hagoth was most likely Hanno the Navigator. The BOM was written by Ethiopian Jews. The Land South is Africa and the Narrow Neck is the Isthmus of Suez. The Northward flowing river is the Nile River. Ask me anything, I'll explain it.
One thing that is interesting is looking at the genetic evidence. A quick glance of the evidence suggests the Book of Mormon people landed first off the coast of California then possibly moved into the Southern Gulf states. The Jaredites could have been further North by the Great Lakes.
There is some really interesting, genetic evidence linking the Cherokee people and also the Lakota people to the ancient people called the Hopewell. There are a number of us who believe that the Hopewell people were actually contemporary with the peoples of the book of Mormon. So, that would mean that they would have had to land on the southern or gulf coast of North America. They would’ve most likely and logically followed the tributaries and rivers north into the heartland. I do think there’s a strong possibility that the Jedi may have ended up on the West Coast, and there are some really interesting and very out of place artifacts that have been found along the coast of Mexico, all the way down into Central America that do not fit any of the other cultures, that came later. DNA evidence also shows mixing of different genetic groups of people that were Asian, African, and Native American. Other genetic groups are just a mystery. I’m still learning about all these things but it’s just so fascinating. Nothing is what we thought it was. People got around a lot more than we thought they did.
@@csluau5913 I haven't seen the DNA evidence you've seen. I have seen though that the Cherokee are likely related to Hebrews. I haven't seen the same about the Lakota. I'm not sure where they landed, but a West coast landing makes more sense. I also believe that the climate in California matches better with the stories, geography, and plants. Florida though would be my second guess.
@@joshradson2649 OK, this is a long response so buckle up. Here is something to think about. I have been out west a couple times, but I have not made it as far as California. I do however know that over the last 2000 years the climate has changed a bit. It is some pretty rough out there, but several thousand years ago it was a lot more lush and green and wet than it is now.. That being said, there was allegedly a revelation given to Joseph Smith that they were landing at a place near 30° latitude. Originally they thought it was south latitude in South America, which would have put it down near Argentina but once again, the terrain is just very rough going In the book of Mormon Nephi talked about the types of animals that they saw once they had landed. Those type of animals would have lived in Ancient America. We know that now. The evidence has taken a long time to emerge, but we have it. Also, 30° latitude in North America put them right around the Gulf of Mexico specifically in the Florida panhandle area around Apalachicola Bay. There are a huge number of very ancient oyster shell middens and mound sites along the gulf coast of Florida and up the rivers. Especially the Apalachicola river. I personally have found artifacts in Florida that date to that timeframe because I grew up in Florida and some of these date back a very long time. In the last 20 years more evidence has been uncovered than you would believe to not only suggest, but prove that ancient people lived in Florida for several thousand years all the way back to 10,000 years ago (we believe). Many artifacts and burials have been found on the East Coast, the West Coast and the Gulf coast of Florida. So here’s the clincher… The same type of artifacts that are found in a lot of these places are also found at the burial sites far inland. All the way up to the Ohio river valley. One specific cultural link is presents of beads and ornaments and ceremonial cups made from the lightning Whelk shell. This is significant because it is only found in one place in the entire world, along the gulf coast of North America. It isn’t found on the East Coast or the West Coast or down in South America. You can start about halfway up the eastern coastline of Mexico, and worked your way all the way around to the tip of Florida, but that’s it. You can’t find it anywhere else in the entire world. So, that is a link. The descendants of the people that would have landed there must have encountered these shells along the beach, and they left an impression upon them as new settlers upon the land. That particular sea shell was special because it has a left-handed sinistral spiral, which they believed was sacred and had a connection to the cosmology of the universe and the movement of the sun. I have spent the last 18 months of my life researching a lot of these things. I have talked to Wayne May, and a number of other people privately about these things, and I have continued to find physical evidence here and their scattered across eastern and southeastern America that shows that there were definitely people moving through these areas during the timeframe in which the book of Mormon took place. Then, there was a diminished number of artifacts, and all earthworks, and other things left behind had stopped being built for a long time. Then you had the Mississippian culture movement several hundred years later, and the religious movement that accompanied it with temple and platform mounds being built all over again, some of them on top of the ancient sites. You don’t find those out in the western part of North America. So I think they used the rivers for transportation and commerce. They knew how to build canoes and boats, including boats with sails so they could’ve actually paddled or traveled up river against the current if they had small sail craft. You can’t do that from California heading east. If you can find me rivers that run east to west from California into the heartland I’ll give you 100 bucks. :-) There are a lot of rivers throughout the north east and south east America the biggest one being the Mississippi river which links to a lot of other rivers. Trust me when I tell you, I have done the fieldwork in the research. Ancient people lived along the rivers, because water is life and they were the ancient highways of the Americas. It’s a lot easier traveling in a canoe than it is across wilderness because remember America was a wilderness back then. The DNA links, the Cherokee and the Lakota and other tribes to the Hopewell culture. They used the rivers and the ancient trading paths to scatter around the northeast and southeast part of what is now the United States and Canada. Some of them actually headed west, because of the constant warfare between the various tribes and nations. Where they are now living is not where they originally lived. Also, I would take whatever anthropologist and archaeologist tell you with a grain of salt sometimes. They don’t know either. They’re just guessing.
The Cherokee are Iroquois and they and Algonquians have Hebrew DNA. Western Native Americans are more Asian. The Micmac have been found to have haplogroup X in 40% of those samples in the article, Distribution of mtDNA Haplogroup X Among Native North Americans in American Journal of Physical Anthropology 2001 vol. 110:271-284 1999 Great Surprise-Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought. by Brian Handwerk National geographic Published November 22, 2013 Distribution of Mitochondrial DNA Lineages Among Native American Tribes of Northeastern North America in Human Biology, Feb. 2001, v.73,no. 1 pp 17-55 it states on p.24, “Haplogroup X is highest in frequency among Algonquian-speaking populations, reaching a maximum or 50% in the Micmac.
Sound quality sounds good to me, do you have a specific part that you are referring to as having terrible sound quality? Do you have a timestamp reference? Keep in mind this is a reaction video to a DVD 📀
@@BookofMormonEvidence yes. It's all of the times when you and your co-host are speaking. At least to my ears, there is a lot of background static and noise that I don't hear on other TH-cam videos.
The narrow neck of land was mentioned to have been some point in the east and extend to a West Sea (Alma 22:32, Helaman 4:7). No east sea is specified. But assuming they meant a sea in the east as the starting point, that would make a narrow neck of land extending north and south. Ether also made the observation that the narrow neck was "by the place where the sea divides the land" (Ether 10:20). Where in Mesoamerica is there any place where the sea divides the land? In Mesoamerica the land divides the seas. The Great Lakes (i.e. seas, see Hebrew word Yam which is interpreted "sea" but is used for any body of water including large rivers. Clearly, the Great Lakes qualify as large bodies of water.
@BookofMormonEvidence Verse 27 of Alma 22 is more clear in referring to the region: “which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness” It is also worth noting that the narrow neck couldn’t have been too narrow because in Mosiah 8, we read that the Limhi explorers passed through without knowing it and thought they were still in the land of Zarahemla. In my own opinion it takes a LOT of mental gymnastics to think that the narrow neck is where you’re advocating, and admittedly it takes some of the same gymnastics to take any other possible geography seriously as well. For me, it’s a serious conundrum.
Faith is the basis or seed of knowledge and conviction. The atheist who demands evidence already denies the evidence in front of him because of pride or arrogance which enable unbelief.
How do Heartlanders answer about the existance of an ancient city called Lamanai in Beliz? That sounds very close to a Book of Mormon name to me: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanai
Yes, that was not ideal. I think they meant well by putting up the map, but it prevented us from seeing what they were pointing at. Glad you pointed that out.
So do you still claim Joseph Smith did not use a seer stone in the translation process of the Book of Mormon? If so, you're contradicting the Brethren.
We believe that the Lord, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey - the three individuals who knew the most about how it happened and was directly involved in the translation - made it very clear in revelations in the D&C and excerpts from Church History that Joseph used the instrument God Himself prepared centuries in advance for that express purpose. Modern revisionist historians have altered the history to include anti-Mormon and apostate historical documents into the history, thus altering the official position of church leadership for upwards of 200 years. Modern day prophets have relied on historians to get the history right, they have never claimed new revelation on the matter and are simply demonstrating how it was explained to them by the historians. We feel that canonized revelations from the Lord are moreh authoritative than demonstrations based on historical revisionism.
Jesus stated in 3rd Nephi that he needed to visit other peoples. I believe the heartland model is the Nephite civilizations, however, stories of Jesus are in many civilizations, including Aztec,Myan, Polynesian, and many more. Even Egypt tried to copy or emulate the power and influence of Christ through its interactions of Abraham, Joseph, and Moses, etc. Gods plan has always been here. Listen to the native tribes themselves, in thier own history. The meso and heartland models do represent Gods interventions with his peoples, but aren't we all God's peoples. That is why you see so many LDS temples all over the world. It is not just a "Mormon" thing, it is all part of Gods' plan for all his children, throughout all times, and Satans desire to destroy it. We all have a choice.
The BofM prophets prophesied that the land they lived on would be a land of liberty. It is "looking beyond the mark" to put such weight on Mesoamerica, where they have pagan temples. Second, the BofM does not state that the Lamanites built temples, but that they were wild and savage people. They want us to believe that the Mayan temples were built by the Nephites. The BofM clearly states that cities were built by using earth to cover the city walls. We have evidence of that all over the midwest. You see it in the heartland, but not east of the Appalacian mountains (i.e. Lamanite territory). Whenever I see a painting of Jesus clearly near a Mexican temple I laugh. It's laughable to think God brought Nephi to the Promised Land and they found an unmanageable jungle and organized competitors in the Mayan culture, who Nephi doesn't describe at all. Remember he said the Lamanites were wild.
Sorry guys! The BOM itself describes where it took place; the geography, the traveling distances, the seas and oceans etc. That some BOM evidences show up in what is now the US is expected, as MANY left BOM lands and went north! Anthropologists and archaeologists confirm there were already people in this hemisphere before BOM times, i.e. Ether!
There are other things to consider besides just geography. You need to look at the bigger picture and all of the factors. As for myself, I know that Christ walked the Americas plural. He appeared to the ancient people of North America and central in South America. However, it is my firm belief that the events described specifically in the abridged version of the book of Mormon Put together and hidden up by Morroni occurred in North America only. That does not mean that other events did not happen in central and South America as described in the other sets of plates, which are still unaccounted for most likely because they were hidden. This is one of the most ridiculous and divisive issues in the church because we have so many more things that we need to be concerned about given everything that is happening around us right now.people need to adjust their viewing scope and back out a few steps. The spiritual principles taught in all of the books, compiled in the book of Mormon are literally golden. But if you want to go to about evidence, we can go there.
@@csluau5913What about the covenants? We know The Book of Mormon has personal covenants. But are there not also group covenants? National covenants connected to the correct piece of real-estate? Doesn't The Book of Mormon make clear there are deed restrictions connected to the terms by which we may inhabit The Promised Land?
@@rconger24 the best advice I can give to you, is to go into the book of Mormon, and read second Nephi, starting with chapter 1 and read down through it, and then click on the notes. From what I understand… this precious land, which was once the land of another people was preserved for the righteous. It is a land that is choice above all other lands in the world. It has been protected and nurtured, and it has an amazing wealth of natural resources and micro climates all over the United States. we have everything. Mountains, valleys, desert, swamps, pasture, hills, farmland, rivers, streams, creeks, lakes, and springs everywhere. This is a beautiful and ancient land. As the Rocky Mountains are now, the Appalachian Mountains once were. We The People have been protected and given freedoms and liberty above and beyond all other nations in the world for over 200 years… our ancestors came here, fleeing tyranny and oppression, especially against those who worshiped Christ freely without permission or oversight from the state. Many people died in the name of the Lord, trying to worship him, but when kings and tyrants interceded, and stopped them from the simple act of reading the scriptures they needed to find a land that was free. This was prophesied. So they came here. My family were amongst them. I am a descendent of one of many families of pilgrims and settlers of North America that came here in the 1600s. I am so glad that my ancestors were brave and took that leap of faith. Now, because we have become a wicked and idolatrous people, full of sloth, envy, wickedness and deception… the people are now going to be removed from this land by the Lord. Those of us who love him and follow him, may yet have a chance of being preserved, but as for the rest… Unless they give their hearts, minds, and bodies to the Lord, repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness… they will reap what they have sewn. As far as a covenant with a group, yes there was a covenant between the Lord and Lehi and all of his descendants as long as they obeyed the commandments and kept their covenants with him. Unfortunately, they did not, and therefore they were destroyed. The same thing had already happened to the Jaredites , who we believe lived in the north part of what is now America up into Canada. Burials and earthworks slept behind by them around the great lakes and along the north east coast and up into Canada have been found. This is something that mainstream science does not want people to know about, so they cover it up or make up stories about it to create confusion, disinformation and misdirection. Because they don’t understand what they are looking at due to their own philosophies of men and vanity. The descendants of Jared wiped each other out. The Nephites were wiped out. Now, if we do not change our ways immediately, we will be wiped out. The writing is on the wall and it is too late for many. The Lord is knocking at the door even now. Have a nice day :-)😉
Mormons are some of the nicest people I know but the claim; The Book of Mormon is 'Another Testimony of Jesus Christ' is really 'A Testimony of Another Jesus Christ' because the Jesus described by Joseph Smith in his 1844 King Follett discourse is totally different from the Jesus described in the Bible. Apostle Paul warns of teaching 'another' Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4), and and goes on to explain in verses 14 and 15; “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
@johns1834 Your argument that you have the correct Jesus and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches of “another” Jesus can be flipped 180 degrees right back on itself. Chances are that you believe in a Triune God, in other words, the Trinity. Please show me where in the Bible it speaks of and defines this triune god using verses that DO NOT contradict themselves or the definition by other verses or experiences in the very same Bible. Is your Jesus a different Jesus because your understanding and explanation of his nature and relationship to the Father are not supported by the Bible without contradiction? Putting that aside, I guess my next question would be, do all Christian sects come to the same understanding and interpretation of Christ’s words and teachings and do all agree on His specific points of doctrine? No? If Jesus is inseparably tied to his doctrine and gospel, does that mean that each Christian sect teaches and believes in their own version of Jesus? I’m just using your logic here. So, how is it that you get to decide what the nature of God and Jesus Christ are, completely outside of the Bible? Why do you also get to decide what Christ’s doctrines are and their specific interpretation in contradiction to other Christian’s doctrines and interpretations? On top of all that, why do you get to also decide who is a false prophet and who isn’t. How are you the gatekeeper of truth exactly, if all your definitions, doctrines and understandings are contradicted by the Bible, by other Christian sects and by other believers? You are entitled to believe as you may and in whatever you like, but to lay claim to the true Christ and insist that others are following “another” Christ is a flawed argument and full of logical fallacies. Like I said before, the same argument can be turned back on you.
@@adamfoster3493 You are correct, the 'word' Trinity is not found in the Bible, but the word 'bible' is not found in the Bible either. You mistakenly assume I believe 'Sola Scriptura' or 'Bible Alone' which is a 'false' protestant idea. Mormons don't believe in the bible alone either, but do claim to believe the Bible. That is until the Bible conflicts with mormon theology, then mormons are quick to say the Bible has been 'corrupted' and send missionaries out to teach from the same 'corrupt' Bible for some reason. So, my friend, not everything is in the Bible. Paul specifically says; "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the 'traditions' which you were taught by us, either by 'word' of 'mouth' or by 'letter'. 2 Thessalonians 2:15. AND John says; 'But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written'. John 21:25. The concept of the Trinity is found throughout the Bible, such as; "Let 'US' make man in our image" Genesis 1:26. AND Baptize in the name (not names) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Matt 28:19. The concept of the mormon jesus and lucifer/satan are brothers is NOT found in the Bible or Book of Mormon. However, if I missed it, then please show me where in the Bible it speaks of that. The mormon jesus is 'another' jesus and NOT the same Jesus spoken of in the Bible as Apostle Paul warns about in 2 Cor. 11:4.
@@johns1834I’m curious if you are aware of/ have thoughts on the idea of the deuteronomist take over under Josiah and how that affected the bible and the Jewish nation. A lot of the work was done by Margaret Barker who is not at all LDS. And how some contradictions can be attributed to that? (Such as God having a human form in genesis and exodus but then suddenly God loses his body in deuteronomy.) Just wondering how other faiths and beliefs tackle Bible contradictions as well as the history of the Bible and theories surrounding how it got to its final form.
@@LadyDisdain3 well said. It is only in the last few years that enough research has been compiled to show that, just like in modern days here and now in the United States, which is one of the most free countries in the world. Allegedly… The narrative is controlled by those who are in power. Is it unreasonable to believe that the narrative… I.e. the Scriptures were also controlled and “edited “by those who were in power at certain times throughout history?. I believe it is entirely possible. That is why the finding of the dead sea scrolls was so marvelous because they could be compared with other things that had previously been translated and re-translated and then re-translated again. if you read some of the original scrolls of the Torah in the original Hebrew, they are strikingly different from translations that were made through four languages before they made it into English proper. I think you are illustrating a good point. Hence, the churches stance that they believe in the Bible in as much as it is correctly translated. There are many references in the Bible that don’t match up including some references to books that were subsequently removed between the 1600s and modern day canonized version
What exactly is your reason for saying that Christ as described in the different books contained in the abridged version of the book of Mormon it’s not the same person as Christ as described in the collected books of the canonized Bible? Be specific please. In light of your challenge, and your incendiary remark, you should be specific… However, my first question to you above all would be have you ever actually read the book of Mormon completely?
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Like most of us I grew up with the mesoamerica model. I had a solid testimony of the book of Mormon but the strange hill cumorah theories were testimony challenging rather than promoting, I had more questions than answers. When first hearing the heartland model my mind was put to rest completely on the matter, it feels right to me.
Thank you for the work you do.
100% I totally agree with your statement. I feel totally at peace with the Heartland model especially since it totally aligns with Ether and Moroni’s statements about this land being a land of liberty and freedom. My heart and mind are at peace with the heartland
Thanks for the encouragement. Rod is awesome and when he first told me about the Heartland 12 years ago, I was also excited. Of course my spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon has been strong for over 40 years, but understanding geography and translation and other non-doctrinal ideas has been additional second evidence for me. I believe as Moroni said, I may know the truth of all things in due time.
Read the CES letter.
@@Pay-It_Forward believe it or not my testimony actually increased when I came across anti arguments, yes I was a little bothered by it and confused but I didn't waste time dwelling on it. I almost immediately made the decision to pray about it.
I went out to a nearby field and prayed repeatedly late into the night. My answer came in the morning, the most powerful and sacred experience of my life.
Please don't let your eternal welfare hang on the CES letter, you're better than that.
@@richardtong3099 Actually, there is CES levels of evidence against the origins of both Christianity & Judahism. If Judahism was fake & Christianity is also fake, Mormonism can't be a restoration. And there is no evidence that good feelings from prayer, is spiritual knowledge. The CES letter is only the tip of a giant iceberg of evidence. It shouldn't be dismissed.
Can't get enough, anxiously waiting for the next part...
Another thing to consider is how the land changed at the time of the crucifixion. It seems reasonable to me that the lake levels could have dropped and other geographical shifts etc. could have occurred at or around that time. Of course, the land will shift however and whenever the Lord commands it so.
When I was 16 I had a subscription to the Popular Mechanics and there was an article in there about a pipeline firm that was trenching in a pipeline across Northern New York and they ran into piles of Human bones with their trencher. no-one else has brought that up. So I believe that is pertinent to the Book of Mormon.
I love that. Please send me information so I can find out more about that please.
There is a book entitled Antiquities of the State of New York. It talks about skeletons found in Upper NYS in the late 1700 and early 1800. There were referred to as bone pits because they were mass graves.
How can I purchase the map you used in this presentation?
We'll see if we can make it available, but you can get the 100+ map book in the Bookstore at www.bookofmormonevidence.org
Does that book include the map that you used in this presentation?
Timely... Been video bingeing on this today
Yes,, it all happened in North America 🇺🇸
Technically everything north of Panama is North America, but the United States is the central portion of the continent.
I believe that very strongly as well.
Public school has messed us all up…
When we are speaking of the seven continents of the earth as a whole, then from Panama to Greenland is all “North America”
But when we zero in on the “two” continents of North and South America, all of a sudden we speak of four different sections, not two:
•Greenland
•the USA
•Central America
•South America
So “technically” North America is only the USA and Canada, and then there are still two “America” sections left, as well as the unconnected land of Greenland… this explains why it is so easy for some to become totally confused
It all depends upon the topic of each conversation…
If you’re going to put the American flag, you should also put the Canadian flag because things happened up there as well. Remember, there were no borders or flags such as the ones we have now and also remember the geography has changed slightly. For instance, rivers, hills, etc.
Rod, I just watched you on Greg Madsen's CWIC show. That was great! Can you let me know all the details about of your Kirkland and church history tour? We have Spring break here in Utah the first week of April. Can you let me know all the details? Thank you!!!
Awesome guys!!!
"When I prepared to leave Toronto following the concluding dedicatory session, I gazed upward toward heaven, that I might offer a silent prayer of gratitude to God for His watchful care, His bounteous blessings and for “days never to be forgotten.” High above the gleaming white temple, which personifies purity and reflects righteousness, is the gold-leafed statue of the Angel Moroni. I remembered being told that from that height of 105 feet, on a clear day one can see all the way to Cumorah. I noted that in Moroni’s hand was his familiar trumpet. He was gazing homeward-homeward to Cumorah."
Days Never to Be Forgotten By President Thomas S. Monson
October 1990
Always loved President Monson!
I love the quote. Here is also what Pres Monson also said. "The Lord gave a divine promise to the ancient inhabitants of this favored country (the United States): ‘Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ” (Ether 2:12).
“Our Heavenly Father inspired the leaders of…the United States of America, that they might together, under His direction, having been raised up by God for the purpose, establish the Constitution of this country and…Bill of Rights, that by the year of our Lord 1805 [there would be] a climate where our Heavenly Father could send into this period of mortality a choice spirit who would be known as Joseph Smith, Jr.” Teachings of Thomas S. Monson 2011 (Ordained an Apostle, 1963; ordained President of the Church, 2008)
I shared some quotes in another discussion area fro Temple Dedications in Mexico, Central and South America, by Gordon B. HINKEL, Spencer W. Kimball and others saying that the majority of those people had the blood of Lehi, and the area was part of the promised land, just to be told they were wrong by heartlanders
I don't think anyone has ever said they were wrong. The descendants of the Lamanites, and other nations noted in the Book of Mormon had plenty of time to disseminate throughout the entirety of the hemisphere. It does not have to be the "either or" scenario that both camps tend to believe about each other. @@BrianTerrill
@@kz6fittycent why did I get tagged in this, I don't have qn either or argument about the Book of Mormon people, just that Zarahemla and lands mention in the Book of Mormon can't be in the Heartland.
Howdy Guy's, keep up the good work, and I'll be even happy to hear when we get to the point where the 1,350 yrs. of the Jaredites Civilization cover all the land and even diffuses or intersects the Olmecs, Toltecs timelines, and the Hebrew carvings and imagery are interlaced into their wider cultures. I love the work we are doing. and the re-emergence of these truths that seem to slip away so easily. Like the trickling waters in the desert sands. ~Jaysonian Man
So when Nephi's boat landed on the west coast, 61 year old (Lehi & Sariah) walked 2,000 miles by foot over the Rocky Mountains before pitching their tent?
Lehis boat likely landed in Florida. This is where the Historic Hopewell Civilization began in 600 BC, which I believe Hopewell are the Nephites. Hopewell ended near NY in 400 AD according to most secular historians. Sounds like the Nephites to me.
I really enjoy these videos. I hope you continue to do many more. These have been such a strength to my spiritual testimony of the Book of Mormon.
Read the CES letter.
The south American model NEVER fit my RLDS teachings in the early 70's. Then there's the prophecy's that the land would be a beacon of liberty, flowing with milk and honey. The heartland model settles it for me.😊
Fantastic!
Joseph Smith in September 15, 1842, issue of the Times and Seasons: ("These wonderful ruins of Palenque are among the mighty works of the Nephites."; "Nephites...lived about the narrow neck of land, which now embraces Central America")--Joseph Smith was editor.
Do the research. Joseph did not author those articles. Those articles were signed "ED" meaning editor, but Joseph had said earlier that anytime he wrote an article that he would sign it Joseph Smith. Also at the time these articles came out, Joseph was in hiding across the Mississippi in Montrose Iowa as Governor Biggs had issued an arrest order for him. Most scholars today agree that Joseph did not author these articles.
@@ScottAndersen-m9f Joseph never issued a retraction or rebuttal. Every (Prophet & Apostle) since then has echoed that theme. Ancient America Speaks was approved by the 1st Presidency & paid for by the Church & used for missionary work for decades.
Jonathan addressed the potential reason Joseph didn't recant these Meso promotion articles in his book The Lost City of Zarahemla.
And all the former promotion of Mesoamerica has now been removed from all editions of the book by later presidencies.
Watch the video. Joseph did not author these articles, but rather it was either Winchester or Joseph's brother William.
@@BookofMormonEvidence John L. Sorenson disagreed
Of course it happened in the heartland around the Great Lakes regardless of what some people think.
There were a great many mounds in the Detroit area. once upon a time the definitely was a great city there, but almost all have been destroyed. There is even a giant mound rivaling the size of chahokia, near nearly noone talks about not even wayne may, in Michigan on the west side on lake Michigan , near grand rapids.
10:02 very powerful. Knowledge is only powerful to those who first have faith
Where can I get a copy of those maps? This is very informative.
Simply go to our website at www.bookofmormonevidence.org and click on the bookstore. Scroll to the maps book and we'll send it right out!
Thanks for your interest.
I finally came to the conclusion in 2022 that the BoM took place in the eastern part of the U.S. - no one converted me. Adam was in Missouri, the Promised Land…. When God sent Lehi and others to the Promised Land, they did not go to Guatemala, Mexico or Central America! Because the Promised Land will be a land of liberty, free from all other nations, and all nations would flow unto it. Guatemala does not fit this mold or the others. Lehi did not go to a 3rd world country, he was taken to the Promised Land.
That makes good sense. Thanks for your comment
More
Go go go, guys!
Mesoamerica makes more sense to me but I appreciate the effort to expand and explain the Heartland theory
I disagree with the implications of some of the interpretation of prophetic statements being described. I don't think nephi put boundaries on his visions and the descendants of the nephites could have been all over America by the time the Europeans arrived so I don't think the prophesies can prove a geographic location.
I am more intrested in geographic correlations in the text which align with cultural, geological and technological descriptions all of which align more closely in mesoamerica than in north america.
3 Essential Truths about Nephite Observance of the Law of Moses
“First Truth: Not only did the Nephites “strictly” keep the law of Moses (as indicated in 37 verses in the Book of Mormon (see Alma 30:3, Mosiah 13:29-30, Jarom 1:5), but they did so with delight as it was seen by them as both a collection of types of Christ and a means of coming unto Him. Occasionally even the Lamanites were known to “strictly” observe the law (Hel. 13:1). Second: In "observing to keep the commandments of the Lord in all things, according to the Law of Moses" (2 Ne. 5:10), the Nephites would have necessarily observed all the feasts or "holy days” given to Moses by Jehovah. These are recorded in Exodus and Leviticus and are known as “holy convocations” or "rehearsals" and they typify the life and mission of Jesus Christ in profoundly beautiful ways. Third: It was absolutely essential for these Jewish Lehites to be brought to a land that would provide an abundance of all the plants and animals required to keep the Law of Moses, with its concomitant Holy Days or festivals. Based on the latest archeological findings, it can now be irrefutably shown that the Heartland of North America is the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all ten of the essential items were found anciently including; lambs, oxen, goats, doves, barley, wheat, grapes, and altars made of stacked, unhewn stones. These aforementioned items have not been found in the archaeological record of the pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica.” Amberli Nelson MBA Hebrew/Jewish Symbology Expert
What are the main issues you have with the Heartland Model?
I want a print of that painting but I can't find it online.
Happy late birthday, Rod!
Read Alma 22:32 very carefully. "And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half's fourney for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the EAST to west sea;" not the east sea to the west sea. What Alma is depicting is the boundary between the land Bountiful and the land Desolation. That said, I strongly agree from years of analyzing Book of Mormon geography that Lake Erie is the best fit for the west sea, that Lake Ontario is the best fit for the east sea (or perhaps Seneca Lake), and that the narrow neck if land is the straight between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario separating the land northward (southern Ontario) from the land southward (western New York). I see the line Bountiful as the Niagara Escarpment, which indeed runs from the east to the west sea (Lake Erie). I put the city Zarahemla on the Genesee River just north of Letchworth State Park. This does not mean the site across the Mississippi River from Nauvoo where Joseph Smith organized a Stake and named it in honor of Zarahemla isn't a possible ancient city once inhabited by people who were either descendants of Lehi, or influenced by the culture. They may have even built a temple.
That is an interesting observation. I have always felt that the city of Zarahemla was located near the town of Niagara-on-the-Lake which is on the west bank of the Niagara River (River Sidon) near its mouth. The Niagara runs north with its headwaters only 40 miles away. Lake Ontario would be the Sea East. Lake Erie the South Sea. Lake Huron the West Sea, and The Georgian Bay the North Sea. The Niagara Peninsula is the narrow neck of land that could be crossed in a day and a half (25 miles wide). The BofM tells us that tens of thousands of dead soldiers were tossed into the River Sidon rather than buried and are "in the depths of the sea (Lake Ontario). Southeastern Ontario is the land northward which Mormon tells us is a "land of many lake and rivers." 40% of all Canadians live in southeastern Ontario. The land southward is the land of Nephi which Joseph Smith said was the Ohio Valley. Most of the Hopewell archeological sites are in the Ohio Valley.
What about Hagoth who many members are and were so sure populated Polynesia?
IMO Hagoth was most likely Hanno the Navigator. The BOM was written by Ethiopian Jews. The Land South is Africa and the Narrow Neck is the Isthmus of Suez. The Northward flowing river is the Nile River. Ask me anything, I'll explain it.
One thing that is interesting is looking at the genetic evidence. A quick glance of the evidence suggests the Book of Mormon people landed first off the coast of California then possibly moved into the Southern Gulf states. The Jaredites could have been further North by the Great Lakes.
There is some really interesting, genetic evidence linking the Cherokee people and also the Lakota people to the ancient people called the Hopewell. There are a number of us who believe that the Hopewell people were actually contemporary with the peoples of the book of Mormon. So, that would mean that they would have had to land on the southern or gulf coast of North America. They would’ve most likely and logically followed the tributaries and rivers north into the heartland. I do think there’s a strong possibility that the Jedi may have ended up on the West Coast, and there are some really interesting and very out of place artifacts that have been found along the coast of Mexico, all the way down into Central America that do not fit any of the other cultures, that came later. DNA evidence also shows mixing of different genetic groups of people that were Asian, African, and Native American. Other genetic groups are just a mystery. I’m still learning about all these things but it’s just so fascinating. Nothing is what we thought it was. People got around a lot more than we thought they did.
@@csluau5913 I haven't seen the DNA evidence you've seen. I have seen though that the Cherokee are likely related to Hebrews. I haven't seen the same about the Lakota. I'm not sure where they landed, but a West coast landing makes more sense. I also believe that the climate in California matches better with the stories, geography, and plants. Florida though would be my second guess.
@@joshradson2649 OK, this is a long response so buckle up. Here is something to think about. I have been out west a couple times, but I have not made it as far as California. I do however know that over the last 2000 years the climate has changed a bit. It is some pretty rough out there, but several thousand years ago it was a lot more lush and green and wet than it is now.. That being said, there was allegedly a revelation given to Joseph Smith that they were landing at a place near 30° latitude. Originally they thought it was south latitude in South America, which would have put it down near Argentina but once again, the terrain is just very rough going
In the book of Mormon Nephi talked about the types of animals that they saw once they had landed. Those type of animals would have lived in Ancient America. We know that now. The evidence has taken a long time to emerge, but we have it. Also, 30° latitude in North America put them right around the Gulf of Mexico specifically in the Florida panhandle area around Apalachicola Bay. There are a huge number of very ancient oyster shell middens and mound sites along the gulf coast of Florida and up the rivers. Especially the Apalachicola river.
I personally have found artifacts in Florida that date to that timeframe because I grew up in Florida and some of these date back a very long time. In the last 20 years more evidence has been uncovered than you would believe to not only suggest, but prove that ancient people lived in Florida for several thousand years all the way back to 10,000 years ago (we believe). Many artifacts and burials have been found on the East Coast, the West Coast and the Gulf coast of Florida. So here’s the clincher… The same type of artifacts that are found in a lot of these places are also found at the burial sites far inland. All the way up to the Ohio river valley.
One specific cultural link is presents of beads and ornaments and ceremonial cups made from the lightning Whelk shell. This is significant because it is only found in one place in the entire world, along the gulf coast of North America. It isn’t found on the East Coast or the West Coast or down in South America. You can start about halfway up the eastern coastline of Mexico, and worked your way all the way around to the tip of Florida, but that’s it. You can’t find it anywhere else in the entire world. So, that is a link. The descendants of the people that would have landed there must have encountered these shells along the beach, and they left an impression upon them as new settlers upon the land.
That particular sea shell was special because it has a left-handed sinistral spiral, which they believed was sacred and had a connection to the cosmology of the universe and the movement of the sun. I have spent the last 18 months of my life researching a lot of these things. I have talked to Wayne May, and a number of other people privately about these things, and I have continued to find physical evidence here and their scattered across eastern and southeastern America that shows that there were definitely people moving through these areas during the timeframe in which the book of Mormon took place.
Then, there was a diminished number of artifacts, and all earthworks, and other things left behind had stopped being built for a long time. Then you had the Mississippian culture movement several hundred years later, and the religious movement that accompanied it with temple and platform mounds being built all over again, some of them on top of the ancient sites. You don’t find those out in the western part of North America. So I think they used the rivers for transportation and commerce. They knew how to build canoes and boats, including boats with sails so they could’ve actually paddled or traveled up river against the current if they had small sail craft.
You can’t do that from California heading east. If you can find me rivers that run east to west from California into the heartland I’ll give you 100 bucks. :-) There are a lot of rivers throughout the north east and south east America the biggest one being the Mississippi river which links to a lot of other rivers. Trust me when I tell you, I have done the fieldwork in the research. Ancient people lived along the rivers, because water is life and they were the ancient highways of the Americas. It’s a lot easier traveling in a canoe than it is across wilderness because remember America was a wilderness back then. The DNA links, the Cherokee and the Lakota and other tribes to the Hopewell culture. They used the rivers and the ancient trading paths to scatter around the northeast and southeast part of what is now the United States and Canada. Some of them actually headed west, because of the constant warfare between the various tribes and nations. Where they are now living is not where they originally lived. Also, I would take whatever anthropologist and archaeologist tell you with a grain of salt sometimes. They don’t know either. They’re just guessing.
The Cherokee are Iroquois and they and Algonquians have Hebrew DNA. Western Native Americans are more Asian.
The Micmac have been found to have haplogroup X in 40% of those samples in the article, Distribution of mtDNA Haplogroup X Among Native North Americans in American Journal of Physical Anthropology 2001 vol. 110:271-284 1999
Great Surprise-Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins
Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought.
by Brian Handwerk National geographic
Published November 22, 2013 Distribution of Mitochondrial DNA Lineages Among Native American Tribes of Northeastern North America in Human Biology, Feb. 2001, v.73,no. 1 pp 17-55 it states on p.24, “Haplogroup X is highest in frequency among Algonquian-speaking populations, reaching a maximum or 50% in the Micmac.
Do you have a link to the DNA evidence you referenced? I haven't, and want to learn all I can
These videos always have great content, but seriously, why is the sound quality always so terrible?
Sound quality sounds good to me, do you have a specific part that you are referring to as having terrible sound quality? Do you have a timestamp reference? Keep in mind this is a reaction video to a DVD 📀
Sound is fine.
@@BookofMormonEvidence yes. It's all of the times when you and your co-host are speaking. At least to my ears, there is a lot of background static and noise that I don't hear on other TH-cam videos.
I am so sorry they sound good to me.
No issues with the sound.
Ummmm… didn’t the narrow neck of land separate a sea on the East and West? That proposed location you are pointing to is North / South 🤔
The narrow neck of land was mentioned to have been some point in the east and extend to a West Sea (Alma 22:32, Helaman 4:7). No east sea is specified. But assuming they meant a sea in the east as the starting point, that would make a narrow neck of land extending north and south. Ether also made the observation that the narrow neck was "by the place where the sea divides the land" (Ether 10:20). Where in Mesoamerica is there any place where the sea divides the land? In Mesoamerica the land divides the seas. The Great Lakes (i.e. seas, see Hebrew word Yam which is interpreted "sea" but is used for any body of water including large rivers. Clearly, the Great Lakes qualify as large bodies of water.
@BookofMormonEvidence Verse 27 of Alma 22 is more clear in referring to the region: “which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness”
It is also worth noting that the narrow neck couldn’t have been too narrow because in Mosiah 8, we read that the Limhi explorers passed through without knowing it and thought they were still in the land of Zarahemla.
In my own opinion it takes a LOT of mental gymnastics to think that the narrow neck is where you’re advocating, and admittedly it takes some of the same gymnastics to take any other possible geography seriously as well. For me, it’s a serious conundrum.
Brother Lindsey probably shown the wood building in shambles as there had been a great destruction in the land
Faith is the basis or seed of knowledge and conviction. The atheist who demands evidence already denies the evidence in front of him because of pride or arrogance which enable unbelief.
Thanks to the great update of your original cds! Got a set from your good friend!
Rod is excited about a 15 year update. It is amazing how 15 years ago, he was so correct on most things. Rod is wonderful.
@@riannelson67 He's just trying to sell DVDs.
How do Heartlanders answer about the existance of an ancient city called Lamanai in Beliz? That sounds very close to a Book of Mormon name to me:
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanai
Excellent, thanks for showing the pre-Columbian maps and coverage area of the seas
I llove Heartland, but no stairs. Ex 20:26
Ramps for modesty.
No stairs at the alter for sacrifices, not to access the top of a hill.
no steps!! Tell your artist to use a ramp in his paintings.... not steps!
Excellent point. Be patient, artists are learning too!
In the future, when you are pointing at things, show what you are pointing at, please.
Yes, that was not ideal. I think they meant well by putting up the map, but it prevented us from seeing what they were pointing at. Glad you pointed that out.
So do you still claim Joseph Smith did not use a seer stone in the translation process of the Book of Mormon? If so, you're contradicting the Brethren.
We believe that the Lord, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey - the three individuals who knew the most about how it happened and was directly involved in the translation - made it very clear in revelations in the D&C and excerpts from Church History that Joseph used the instrument God Himself prepared centuries in advance for that express purpose.
Modern revisionist historians have altered the history to include anti-Mormon and apostate historical documents into the history, thus altering the official
position of church leadership for upwards of 200 years. Modern day prophets have relied on historians to get the history right, they have never claimed new revelation on the matter and are simply demonstrating how it was explained to them by the historians. We feel that canonized revelations from the Lord are moreh authoritative than demonstrations based on historical revisionism.
If the Church had the plates, at this time, I think they would have to turn them over to the government because of NAGPRA.
There is a painting in the museum of St Petersburg, showing Christ visiting the Russians after his ressurection.
And India and Japan have similar accounts.
the original painting is much better
Jesus stated in 3rd Nephi that he needed to visit other peoples. I believe the heartland model is the Nephite civilizations, however, stories of Jesus are in many civilizations, including Aztec,Myan, Polynesian, and many more. Even Egypt tried to copy or emulate the power and influence of Christ through its interactions of Abraham, Joseph, and Moses, etc. Gods plan has always been here. Listen to the native tribes themselves, in thier own history. The meso and heartland models do represent Gods interventions with his peoples, but aren't we all God's peoples. That is why you see so many LDS temples all over the world. It is not just a "Mormon" thing, it is all part of Gods' plan for all his children, throughout all times, and Satans desire to destroy it. We all have a choice.
The BofM prophets prophesied that the land they lived on would be a land of liberty. It is "looking beyond the mark" to put such weight on Mesoamerica, where they have pagan temples. Second, the BofM does not state that the Lamanites built temples, but that they were wild and savage people. They want us to believe that the Mayan temples were built by the Nephites. The BofM clearly states that cities were built by using earth to cover the city walls. We have evidence of that all over the midwest. You see it in the heartland, but not east of the Appalacian mountains (i.e. Lamanite territory). Whenever I see a painting of Jesus clearly near a Mexican temple I laugh. It's laughable to think God brought Nephi to the Promised Land and they found an unmanageable jungle and organized competitors in the Mayan culture, who Nephi doesn't describe at all. Remember he said the Lamanites were wild.
What a great 😂😂😂😂😂
apologetics for the mesoamerican and the Polynesians peoples , They are not laminates either. Testing the fuzzy wuzzy feel good testimony shield.
Sorry guys! The BOM itself describes where it took place; the geography, the traveling distances, the seas and oceans etc. That some BOM evidences show up in what is now the US is expected, as MANY left BOM lands and went north! Anthropologists and archaeologists confirm there were already people in this hemisphere before BOM times, i.e. Ether!
There are other things to consider besides just geography. You need to look at the bigger picture and all of the factors. As for myself, I know that Christ walked the Americas plural. He appeared to the ancient people of North America and central in South America. However, it is my firm belief that the events described specifically in the abridged version of the book of Mormon Put together and hidden up by Morroni occurred in North America only. That does not mean that other events did not happen in central and South America as described in the other sets of plates, which are still unaccounted for most likely because they were hidden. This is one of the most ridiculous and divisive issues in the church because we have so many more things that we need to be concerned about given everything that is happening around us right now.people need to adjust their viewing scope and back out a few steps. The spiritual principles taught in all of the books, compiled in the book of Mormon are literally golden. But if you want to go to about evidence, we can go there.
@@csluau5913What about the covenants? We know The Book of Mormon has personal covenants. But are there not also group covenants? National covenants connected to the correct piece of real-estate? Doesn't The Book of Mormon make clear there are deed restrictions connected to the terms by which we may inhabit The Promised Land?
@@rconger24 i’m not really sure what you’re talking about. Could you perhaps expand upon that?
@@rconger24 the best advice I can give to you, is to go into the book of Mormon, and read second Nephi, starting with chapter 1 and read down through it, and then click on the notes.
From what I understand… this precious land, which was once the land of another people was preserved for the righteous. It is a land that is choice above all other lands in the world. It has been protected and nurtured, and it has an amazing wealth of natural resources and micro climates all over the United States. we have everything. Mountains, valleys, desert, swamps, pasture, hills, farmland, rivers, streams, creeks, lakes, and springs everywhere. This is a beautiful and ancient land. As the Rocky Mountains are now, the Appalachian Mountains once were.
We The People have been protected and given freedoms and liberty above and beyond all other nations in the world for over 200 years… our ancestors came here, fleeing tyranny and oppression, especially against those who worshiped Christ freely without permission or oversight from the state. Many people died in the name of the Lord, trying to worship him, but when kings and tyrants interceded, and stopped them from the simple act of reading the scriptures they needed to find a land that was free. This was prophesied. So they came here.
My family were amongst them. I am a descendent of one of many families of pilgrims and settlers of North America that came here in the 1600s. I am so glad that my ancestors were brave and took that leap of faith. Now, because we have become a wicked and idolatrous people, full of sloth, envy, wickedness and deception… the people are now going to be removed from this land by the Lord. Those of us who love him and follow him, may yet have a chance of being preserved, but as for the rest… Unless they give their hearts, minds, and bodies to the Lord, repent of their sins and ask for forgiveness… they will reap what they have sewn.
As far as a covenant with a group, yes there was a covenant between the Lord and Lehi and all of his descendants as long as they obeyed the commandments and kept their covenants with him. Unfortunately, they did not, and therefore they were destroyed. The same thing had already happened to the Jaredites , who we believe lived in the north part of what is now America up into Canada.
Burials and earthworks slept behind by them around the great lakes and along the north east coast and up into Canada have been found. This is something that mainstream science does not want people to know about, so they cover it up or make up stories about it to create confusion, disinformation and misdirection. Because they don’t understand what they are looking at due to their own philosophies of men and vanity. The descendants of Jared wiped each other out. The Nephites were wiped out. Now, if we do not change our ways immediately, we will be wiped out. The writing is on the wall and it is too late for many. The Lord is knocking at the door even now. Have a nice day :-)😉
Jesus/Jehovah was God (the Son) before He received a physical body. @12:25
Mormons are some of the nicest people I know but the claim; The Book of Mormon is 'Another Testimony of Jesus Christ' is really 'A Testimony of Another Jesus Christ' because the Jesus described by Joseph Smith in his 1844 King Follett discourse is totally different from the Jesus described in the Bible.
Apostle Paul warns of teaching 'another' Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4), and and goes on to explain in verses 14 and 15; “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
@johns1834 Your argument that you have the correct Jesus and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches of “another” Jesus can be flipped 180 degrees right back on itself. Chances are that you believe in a Triune God, in other words, the Trinity. Please show me where in the Bible it speaks of and defines this triune god using verses that DO NOT contradict themselves or the definition by other verses or experiences in the very same Bible. Is your Jesus a different Jesus because your understanding and explanation of his nature and relationship to the Father are not supported by the Bible without contradiction? Putting that aside, I guess my next question would be, do all Christian sects come to the same understanding and interpretation of Christ’s words and teachings and do all agree on His specific points of doctrine? No? If Jesus is inseparably tied to his doctrine and gospel, does that mean that each Christian sect teaches and believes in their own version of Jesus? I’m just using your logic here. So, how is it that you get to decide what the nature of God and Jesus Christ are, completely outside of the Bible? Why do you also get to decide what Christ’s doctrines are and their specific interpretation in contradiction to other Christian’s doctrines and interpretations? On top of all that, why do you get to also decide who is a false prophet and who isn’t. How are you the gatekeeper of truth exactly, if all your definitions, doctrines and understandings are contradicted by the Bible, by other Christian sects and by other believers? You are entitled to believe as you may and in whatever you like, but to lay claim to the true Christ and insist that others are following “another” Christ is a flawed argument and full of logical fallacies. Like I said before, the same argument can be turned back on you.
@@adamfoster3493 You are correct, the 'word' Trinity is not found in the Bible, but the word 'bible' is not found in the Bible either.
You mistakenly assume I believe 'Sola Scriptura' or 'Bible Alone' which is a 'false' protestant idea.
Mormons don't believe in the bible alone either, but do claim to believe the Bible. That is until the Bible conflicts with mormon theology, then mormons are quick to say the Bible has been 'corrupted' and send missionaries out to teach from the same 'corrupt' Bible for some reason.
So, my friend, not everything is in the Bible.
Paul specifically says; "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the 'traditions' which you were taught by us, either by 'word' of 'mouth' or by 'letter'. 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
AND
John says; 'But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written'. John 21:25.
The concept of the Trinity is found throughout the Bible, such as; "Let 'US' make man in our image" Genesis 1:26.
AND
Baptize in the name (not names) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Matt 28:19.
The concept of the mormon jesus and lucifer/satan are brothers is NOT found in the Bible or Book of Mormon. However, if I missed it, then please show me where in the Bible it speaks of that.
The mormon jesus is 'another' jesus and NOT the same Jesus spoken of in the Bible as Apostle Paul warns about in 2 Cor. 11:4.
@@johns1834I’m curious if you are aware of/ have thoughts on the idea of the deuteronomist take over under Josiah and how that affected the bible and the Jewish nation. A lot of the work was done by Margaret Barker who is not at all LDS. And how some contradictions can be attributed to that? (Such as God having a human form in genesis and exodus but then suddenly God loses his body in deuteronomy.)
Just wondering how other faiths and beliefs tackle Bible contradictions as well as the history of the Bible and theories surrounding how it got to its final form.
@@LadyDisdain3 well said. It is only in the last few years that enough research has been compiled to show that, just like in modern days here and now in the United States, which is one of the most free countries in the world. Allegedly… The narrative is controlled by those who are in power. Is it unreasonable to believe that the narrative… I.e. the Scriptures were also controlled and “edited “by those who were in power at certain times throughout history?. I believe it is entirely possible. That is why the finding of the dead sea scrolls was so marvelous because they could be compared with other things that had previously been translated and re-translated and then re-translated again. if you read some of the original scrolls of the Torah in the original Hebrew, they are strikingly different from translations that were made through four languages before they made it into English proper. I think you are illustrating a good point. Hence, the churches stance that they believe in the Bible in as much as it is correctly translated. There are many references in the Bible that don’t match up including some references to books that were subsequently removed between the 1600s and modern day canonized version
What exactly is your reason for saying that Christ as described in the different books contained in the abridged version of the book of Mormon it’s not the same person as Christ as described in the collected books of the canonized Bible? Be specific please. In light of your challenge, and your incendiary remark, you should be specific… However, my first question to you above all would be have you ever actually read the book of Mormon completely?