Lamanite & Nephite DNA, Heartland or Mesoamerica?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ส.ค. 2023
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Rod Meldrum is one of the original "Heartlanders." Rod talks about starting his research into DNA, the Hopewell tribes, as well as the battle between the "Heartland" model and the Mesoamerican model.
What does the DNA show?
What of the mounds?
Does the Hopewell civilization match the Book of Mormon dates?
The FIRM Foundation Expo is September 15-16 in downtown Salt Lake. I will be speaking both days on the following topics-
Friday, September 15, 7 - 8 pm
Lehi Saves Jesus: The Book of Mormon Is The Older Religion
Saturday, September 16, 10:15 - 11:15 am
God's Patriarchy: The DBR Principle
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One of the most awesome things I’ve ever seen was a little, old Native American woman walk into the St. George Temple, in her jeans and a tshirt, just coming from the family history center, with a family name in hand, just excited to have her ancestors name done. I wondered what the Temple workers would do. Would they ask her to come back after she changed into a dress? No, they took her by the hand, led her over to the dressing room, got her a beautiful white dress, and helped her get ready to do the initiatory for her formother. I saw tears running down her face as she waited to do her work. I also had tears running down my face because of the Spirit which was present. Right then and there, the words, “The desert will blossom as a rose” came to my mind. Here was this small, old, wrinkled Indian woman, who was used to the hardness of the desert she lived in. She probably came to town to get her water and food for the month (yes they still do that). But while she was in town, she took some time, although not properly dressed, and went to do some family history. She then was so excited to do something for a long past relative, that she went to the Temple just to see if she could. She went into the dressing room looking old and disheveled, and came out looking absolutely beautiful, grateful, and excited. That was definitely a blossoming of a rose experience for me.
Beautiful
Thank you for sharing this experience! It carries a beautiful spirit.
Beautiful! Thank you for sharing!
This put tears in this old welders eyes.
You made my day.
I would have to go with Joseph Smith knowing where the book of Mormon took place. Also what the Holy Ghost testifies, the Nephites and Lamanites as well as Jaredites all lived on this continent, North America. I find it awful confusing how people feel Moroni traveled well over 3000 miles to bury the Gold Plates. When in return he buried them on the the land in which the Nephites perished.
Watched a TH-cam video this morning by David Lindsley (LDS Artist ) saying that he had converted from middle America to Heartland some of his early paintings Show Pyramids. He has lots of evidence for the Heartland model in his video. I believe in the Heartland model more and more.
That video is very good. Super concise and clear. Everyone should watch it.
That video is amazing! Best one on the internet right now.
What is the title
The tittle is The Nephites Lived Where @@deelloyd4479
@@deelloyd4479 “The Nephites Lived where?”
41:00- that pretty much sums up the differences between the two models of Book of Mormon geography right here: The Meso model has its roots in academia. The Heartland model has its roots in what the scriptures and prophecies say and what the Prophet Joseph himself said on this subject.
Neither have their roots in academia though
I'm not convinced either way but I think it's a mistake to say "Joseph said" or "the scriptures said". Joseph supposedly said a lot of things. Various people have him discussing Nephites in North America and others have him talking about landing in modern Chile. The scriptures talk about a man (who sounds a lot like Columbus) encountering Lamanite descendants. This would be South and Central America. The scriptures also discuss the promised land in a way that sounds a lot like North America. Does this mean this is the same promised land where the Nephites lived? My point is that there seems to be a lot more going on than meets the eye.
That's totally not true. The Mesoamerican model is based on the descriptions found in what Joseph Smith said was the most correct book, the Book of Mormon itself. Alma 22 gives good examples of that, cumorah is located in the north countries, and while I support Zarahemla being south of the Isthmus of Tejuanrepec, I'm open about Cumorah. In any event, the Heartland has the Narrow Neck being Niagra and the seas being the Great Lakes, but New York Cumorah is not north of Niagra at all, it is south east..
Directly north of the narrow neck of land is the land of desolation. The narrow neck of land took a day and a half journey from sea east to sea west. On the west coast of the narrow neck of land is a sea port where Hagoth launched his ships. It is interesting that the heartlanders accuse us of not accepting the prophets, but President Kimball and others have taught the Polynesians were decendants of those who were lost from Hagoth's ships. That would prove sea west=Pacific
Nect, Bountiful is south of the narrow neck of land, Zarahemla is south of Bountiful, between Zarahemla and Nephi is a narrow strip of wilderness and because the headwaters of the River Sidon started there, that implies a higher elevation. From Ammon and his brothers' missions, we learn about the areas of the land of Nephi, such as the lamanite Jerusalem being located near the waters of Mormon (a city that went under water at the crucifixion) etc. In Alma 22 we learn that the land of first inheritance is located on the sea west, west of both Zarahemla and Nephi. We know from Nephi chapters 17 and 18 that the Indian and Pacific ocean are in fact that sea, heartlanders flat out lie about this and say the ocean is never called the sea, and quote one part of chapter 17:17 where it is referred to as the "great waters", and they rely on the fact most church members are lazy scripture readers because all you have to do to see that is wrong is open the Book of Mother to those chapters and see that the ocean is referred to as the sea multiple times
Rod Meldrum beats us in the head about how Joseph sent the four missionaries to the Lamanites, and I don't dispute that, but Brigham Young did refer to the Ute and Navajos as Lamanites and Presidents Hinkley and Kimball did state in the original dedicatory prayers of the Mexico city, Guatemala City and Sao Paulo Brazil temples, so in essence he doesn't believe what was taught by other prophets besides Joseph Smith. On top of that, Joseph did not exclude maya and others from the title "Lamanites."
As far as DNA goes, Rod Meldrum is not a geneticist. Geneticists have shown that the DNA groups Rid brings up existed prior to the time of Lehi.
What gets ignored is that we can read mayan writings now, mostly after John Sorenson wrote An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon. Some of what we learn for example is post Book of Mormon Palin que has monuments that date their kings liniage to a mythical king that dated back to the Jaredites named "U-Kix-Chan, the x was placed by Spanish speakers because of the lack of an sh sound in Spanish. So kix is actually pronounced Kish and there was a Jaredite king named Kish
Also, Palenque monuments use an expression translated multiple times as "and then it happened" that sounds familiar to me.
Also, the form of kingship among the Maya in the first century BC was exactly like we read in the Book of Mormon where King Lamoni was a king but his dad was the king over several kings. Lamoni would have been called "ajaw"
For the record, my first copy of the Book of Mormon has pictures from all areas of the Western Hemisphere
The facts I've read regarding the Times and Seasons was that John Taylor was the editor, and Joseph met with him a week before.
I would like to see direct links in the Joseph Smith papers where Rod's claim that Joseph reprimanded people for teaching the Mesoamerican model. He's just too loose with his facts
I’m all in. One Cumorah guy. Heartland makes so much sense answering my questions of location.
Ditto!
I used to believe the Meso theory but it was partly out of ignorance and partly because i trusted the "scholars" at BYU. Several years back i discovered the Heartlander theiry and I'm a convert again. The Prophecies about the Promised Land, the covenant land, what Joseph and Oliver taught, the early church history all confirm the Heartland over the Meso.
Yes! One Cumorah and it's in Palmyra, New York.
@@kdeltatubethis itself goes against the book of Mormon, since the Book of Mormon never claims that the gold plates were hidden in the hill Cumorah. It says that all the nephite records were hidden there. These are the source material for the abridgment that Mormon had made, but not the actual Book of Mormon. Joseph never makes the Cumorah connection to the palmyra hill, it is Oliver Cowderry and other zealous early converts so the name just sticks, just like we call a nearby grow ninja forest since our childhood and it still sticks, but it is not it's actual name no more than Moscow Idaho would be the capital of Russia. You really believe that Moroni hid 20+ years around the same hill where they got slaughtered, even though he says that he fled traveled far away from the lamanites so he would not be killed, yet heartlanders expect me to believe that he did not go away but just sat still where his enemies now ruled?
There are evidences f him traveling around and dedicating temple sites all over North America. When the manti temple was built Brigham young stated that Moroni had already dedicated the site. Among many others.
I second guess ANYTHING coming from the satanists running and working for BYU. 😂 If BYU presents anything, I now search the opposite for the truth and usually come out better for having done it. BYU is just sleeping with the enemy while smiling at the dinner table with “his” wife and kids. Gotta get that big sports conference upgrade right BYU?
BYU = just another bunch of godless secularist pigs. 😮
Indians were not Mormons.
My strong opinion: I feel like the only reason we humor the mesoamerica theory is to spare the feelings of people who got themselves emotionally invested in that theory. Otherwise it's utterly disposable. The evidence is far less compelling than that which supports the heartland theory.
Amen brother
There's actually a lot of things that align nicely with the BOM in Mesoamerica too, including DNA. I'm personally not convinced either way.
Preach 🙌🙌
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
What? How rude.
I was introduced to Rod's ideas back in 2006, and it's great to see them grow in popularity.
Rod and I served in Young Men's together in the ward at the time that he mentioned toward the beginning of the video (around 2004 or 2005 or so), with the mom who was leaving her church over DNA issues. This was when Rod was first starting his research, which he explained to me as we shared a tent on a campout. It lit a fire in me that has never gone out, and I share FIRM's findings everywhere I go. Keep up the great work, my dear old friend!
My foster brother in the Placement program explained to me how he is from the Book of Mormon through his DNA. The DNA had an x in it if my memory is correct. Northern Jewish people had it also. His father was the Shaman of his tribe or medicine man. His wife is Navaho so he doesn't live with his tribe but hers. If he went home he would be the medicine man. He has many people call him asking for prayer to heal them. He says because they do not know about the Book of Mormon they don't realize that they can pray for themselves to the Great Spirit ( Heavenly Father) for healing.
Hmmmm.....................
I really like Rod Meldrum, I’ve been following him and Wayne May for several years and just feel that Rod is a good guy. I’m a heartlander 😊
Our country is the Promised Land and I’ve always felt this is the Land of the Book of Mormon. As a convert I’m a total Heartlander. Rod your a second witness for me to Wayne May. Thank you.
My family has always had an oral history of a Cherokee lineage, but we have never been able to find any connection (names) in Ancestry. My great grandmother said that some of our ancestors were listed in the tribal records but we have never found them. According to that family oral history we should be able to find something or so we thought. My husband and I had six children and we have all taken the ancestral spit test and the results are that all of us had European ancestry except one son who showed a slightly different DNA. That one son showed a small amount of Jewish inheritance. I have since learned a lot more about those tests. I learned that after 3 or 4 generations from the original Native the DNA gets diluted so it may or may not show up. It takes a different DNA test to dig deeper into the history and most of us don't want to spend the money. At one time it was very important for me and other family members to find the truth, but it doesn't seem to matter anymore. Either way it doesn't change my testimony of the church being true.
DNA is tricky. I’ve learned that there are so many rules to it all. For instance, if your Native American blood line came through your great, great grandmother on your fathers side, chances are it won’t show up, especially if you’re a man, because the female DNA has to come through one generation of female after another for it to show up. However, if your great, great grandfather was the Native American, and you are a male direct descent, it may show up. So there’s just a lot to it.
Cherokee org has the Dawes roll for people who survived the Trail of Tears and were accepted as tribesman. There's 3 recognized tribes and the white BAR attorney govt is still involved even though they are Sovereign. Yup yup. It's a start I suppose
The first time a heard the heartland argument it just rang true, in the same way that the plan of salvation rings true and just makes sense.
I remember in middle school (6th grade) studying the Inca, Mayan and Aztec cultures and I noticed none of their timelines matched the BOM. It didn’t bother me, I just remember thinking, “well these guys weren’t the Nephites.” Later in my late 20’s when I first heard Wayne May it just all clicked and made sense.
Fascinating topic, I remember being obessed with my Native American roots which according to my DNA results stretched from Northern Mexico and up to the Southern Plains of the United with States and a tiny area of Peru, all representing Native Blood. Lots of travel and trade????? Now things have changed, I am feeling more and more a powerful kinship to every race on earth as we are moving rapidly towards The Millennium and learning that every Son and daughter of God on earth has deep within them Gods DNA, Gods mark upon every human being, and how this shows upon all the faithful who become like there Eternal Father if we chose to be.
I commented on the meso American video that I believed the heartland model all the way, and got attacked. They said, you just don’t know very much. And I thought that was funny since they never met me and don’t know what I know, so I replied that they don’t seem very confident in their opinion if they have to attack others for theirs. So needless so say, their argument is very unconvincing.
Yeah..... I've noticed a very big difference in the... humility level... between the people who believe in the heartland model and the people who believe in the meso-American model.
The Heartland model has felt right to me since the first video of Wayne May's that I saw. It was like, "Ah... Well of course." As cool as the Mayan temples are, they aren't Book of Mormon to me. Maybe someday we'll get to read the lost record of when Christ visited them!
I first ran across Rod a few years ago on his You Tube channel and was fascinated by the heartland theory. It made more sense to me that the Mesoamerican theory the first time that I heard him explain it. I was especially struck by his description of the fortifications design of some of the mounds and how those agree with descriptions in the Book of Mormon. In this interview he expounds on some of the history that gave rise to the dominance of the Mesoamerican school of thought. I think he's onto something; and I agree with the heartland theory!
Please get Brant Gardner to give a counterpoint. I don’t have a dog in this fight as my testimony is based on the divine witness I received but I’d enjoy seeing both sides.
So good to see Meldrum again!! I know he’s been busy with his house and what not but feels like he’s been MIA for a long time. Hope to attend his conference someday.
Love you both!! Thanks for this one!!
I’m total heartland believer. You need to interview Bruce Porter on this because he gives great evidence scripturally as to why it matters as to where the book of Mormon takes place. I’m sure you’ve heard it.
Does the church need to take a specific position? Why is that relevant? As long as we don’t act as if the church pushes only one way, the way the meso people do, then we are fine to believe the prophet Joseph and the Lord as to who the lamanites were and what tribes were visited and called that etc etc etc. an official position by the church would merely make members accountable for believing that position. That would only divide those who weren't ready to accept the truth if it went to the heartland. Like most things, it's better not to take a position but to let those that want to be ignorant be so, and those that want to know the truths to pursue it.
@@robertstanley3832 JOSEPH SMITH
THE LORD'S PROPHET
"The Book of Mormon is a record of the forefathers of our western tribes of Indians.... by it we learn that our western tribes of Indians are descendants from that Joseph that was sold into Egypt, and that the land of America is a promised land unto them."
AMERICAN REVIVALIST LETTER
1833 letter to the editor of the American
MARK E. PETERSEN
APOSTLE OF THE CHURCH
"I do not believe that there were two Hill Cumorahs, one in Central America and the other one up in New York, for the convenience of the Prophet Joseph Smith, so that the poor boy would not have to walk clear to Central America to get the gold plates."
- Elder Mark E. Petersen.
A Work of Conversion.
General Conference Address, April 1953
MARION G. ROMNEY
APOSTLE OF THE CHURCH
In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the shill
Cumorah."
• ... as I stood on the crest of that hill ..
my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago_ events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation.
This second civilization to which I refer, the Nephites, flourished in America between 600 B.C. and A.D. 400.
Their civilization came to an end for the same reason, at the same place...
- Elder Marion G. Romney
- October 1975 General Conference
L. TOM PERRY
APOSTLE OF THE CHURCH
"The United States is the Promised Land foretold in the Book of Mormon."
- Elder L. Tom Perry
The Tradition of Light and Testimony
December 2012 Ensign Magazine
@@robertstanley3832 I think anyone with a conviction by nature will share what they believe with others. I think it's fair to say the church doesn't want to take an official position on this topic as they don’t on most topics in the world. They are just asking us not to imply that ours is an official position of the church. I don't. It's my position after studying the sources and coming to the conclusion that even though as a Central American I was raised with the belief that the bom happened in my homelands or neighboring areas, that wasn't exactly accurate. The meso model leans heavily on scribes and Pharisees or as you call them "scholars" , which tend to give greater weight to the testimony's of those that later became detractors over the words of the actual prophets. They also tend to push the meso narrative although it has many large conflicts with scripture. These are in my mind, errors of judgement. It can be sincere errors of judgement, but I am not required by the church to believe something that isn't true, like the meso model, when in a very short time, much more evidence has surfaced that "I FEEL" is true to the prophets, true to the scriptures, and true to the gospel without compromise.
I now consider the heartland areas much more likely to be where the events of the bom took place while the other peoples both west, north and south, including my peoples, are likely the recipients of hagoth like families and groups that were led away by the Lord to Influence the asiatic remnants of the jaredites across those other areas. They have records of Christ coming to visit them all across the Americas. But that doesn't mean that these sheep were the exact same one the bom talks about. They were the other other sheep he spoke of that he still needed to visit after the nephites.
Again this is the conclusion I I've drawn, because I believe the church wants me to draw conclusions on my own on many topics they will not or cannot take official positions on, that might overshadow their actual main purpose which is to gather Israel by preaching the gospel and making ordinances available.
That first presidency statement in no way is some kind of gag order as you present it. It's merely asking usb it to speak for the church as an institution or to be purposefully divisive with those that have not drawn the same conclusions as us.
@@robertstanley3832I believe money made on tours has unfortunately made this an issue with too many becoming defensive over these tours being in jeopardy to their livelihood.
Rod is a great guy. You can tell that he has a good heart and is looking for the truth.
Read Joseph Smith letter to Emma, as he was walking to independence across Iowa and he wrote in his letter to her that I am walking across the land of the Nephites. Do some research on where Zelph is buried.
Of course the inhabitants spread northward from Mesoamerica. They covered the land. But there is no evidence whatsoever that Lehi landed on the shores of what is now known as the continental States
Great cast. Loved the points talked about. As a convert at age 18 and attended Ricks (BYUI) took a BofM class and remember studying the location....then after a year I was called to serve in NM and spent most of my mission among Zuin and Navajo and Hopi people. Many older Native saints spent time with Pres.Kimbel many had traditional teachings and gospel knowledge.
All I can say. I feel at some point the pride cycle occured a few times in the history of the land and many tribes and people intermixed nort to south. I feel a great Native Apostasy occured and all the lad was full of people. The truth is right in the BofM. I don't need exact answers. Living among the Navajo it's apparent there is some blood of Lehi in many North American Natives.
A sad truth about this debate between Heartland and Meso America models is how often they overlook the prophets and apostles, and cherry pick what Joseph Smith has said. Joseph Fielding Smith did say that to have a testimony of the Book of Mormon one must also have a testimony that both North and South America is the promised land.
What's also sad is that neither party will follow the law of witnesses. By doing so I found that Lehi did land on the west coast of South America and by the same means I discovered that there is one Hill Cumorah.
The one thing I believe why so many for either side don't want to expand beyond what they studied is because they're zealots. They think they are right and so there is no need to go beyond what their ideology dictates.
When I study the Book of Mormon everything is clear. Doesn't mean I know exact locations, but my view on how events unfolded is clear. And most importantly I know the Book testifies of Christ and that's truly the only thing that matters.
I have always loved hearing from Brother Meldrum. He has always had good intentions. I agree with him where he quotes the actual Prophets as they point towards the Heartland Model. The merits of Mesoanerica can still fit within that model if the Land changes at the time of Christ caused longtitudinal changes. God bless you brother Meldrum. Thsnks for the Post.
I am of the Káruk Tribe of California, my grandmother told me (before my parents ever even heard about the church), when we were watching a PBS show about how the American Indigenous People got to America, that they (“those people”) were not always right. The PBS show, this was the 60s, said they came across an ice bridge. My grandma said we came from the South and the West, and our tribe has been here for thousands of years. There are many things that I would love to say but time and space are not kind to my old eyes. Our language is a Hokan language. It’s just recently become a written language, there are very few fluent speakers left. We’re trying to revive it.
Please don't let those traditions and your language die. Once it's gone, it's gone. What a heritage!
Ma'am, you should make TH-cam videos and post them. We need stories like yours in the Church and in the world.
The most important thing is that BOM believers don't get into unneeded contention over the issue. Where is occurred is far less important than the teachings. As for me, I prefer the Mezoamerica model for many different reasons.
Do you still?
What a great presentation! I can’t wait to learn more! Thank you again Gregg for a great presentation!
The last comments about the political leanings of the two opposing schools of thought are the most revealing. Hostility to the Heartland theory is possibly more about resistance to the idea of American Exceptionalism and 'Manifest Destiny' than any things else.
Excellent interview. I love how Greg is able to discuss all sorts of topics with so many various guests, which benefits everyone. Greg just makes sense. Rod Meldrum is a great man and loves the BofM. Like him I feel strongly the main events of the BofM happened in North America. Sure, through marriage and migration we have people all over North and South America that may be the children of Lehi, but it all began in Florida where the Hopewell culture began in 600 BC and where most likely where Lehi landed. There IS NO Hebrew DNA in Mesoamerica and there is in the Great Lakes, and Israel that seem to strongly match.
Ever since I was a child I knew it was not Central America and that it was in North America, and I was always confused why nearly all adults in the church kept saying Central America.
We need more voices like this to help the church come off better in the face of evidence that supposedly proves us wrong, when it’s just a misunderstanding among members.
Never made sense to me either
Amen to that!
When I was a missionary at the Provo, UT, MTC in 1986, soon to be in Spain, some of us in my district were approached by a South American Indian who was handing out photocopies of what he called his Great Lakes theory on Book of Mormon geography. The page had a map of the Great Lakes and an accompanying article explaining his ideas. I wish I had a copy of that today. My confidence in a heartland model has only grown over the years from studying the Book of Mormon and other materials. Thanks for having Brother Meldrum on the podcast.
I love Rod. I was introduced to the Heartland model in 2018. I was inactive but could feel the Lord calling me back to church. I got to church and someone lent me that book with all the pictures. I started researching the different mound sites. I thought it was pretty cool. ❤ A decade ago I had read “this is the place”. Which is the mesoamerican model. I that was a cool book too. After watching Rods podcasts and presentations, I was pretty sure that he is correct.
I served my mission in the Yucatán. I always thought I was walking in BoM lands, even innocently but now seemingly erroneously told investigators and members they were those people of BoM lands. I truly thought it to be true. Since then, I’ve moved to the “I’m not sure where” category but I align more and more with the Heartland models, although there are VERY obvious difficulties with even that model. I know it matters but I don’t care right now, I love listening to all of the different BoM land theories.
The more I look into the specifics of the things that could be what you're referring to as the "very obvious difficulties" and ask people like Rod or Wayne May about those (or look into what they have said about them) they really do have decent answers for those. Also they are still coming out with more research all the time that is helpful too
@@mrselizavl5250Yes, there are answers being given and new information being presented all the time to help with all of the theories. Like the BoM anachronisms that we’ve been beat over the head with for two centuries, where that list has been cut from about 230 “THE BOOK ISN’T TRUE BECAUSE OF ALL OF THESE ANACHRONISMS!” to around 30 left. More evidence exists than does not exist to physically measure the plausibility of the BoM and the list shrinks every decade. I’m sure more will be found, assuming it’s God’s will and that the USA isn’t leveled flat due to our wickedness within the next decade. 😊
Yes, and it’s fair to remember that the re-organized group of Latter Day Saints discovered some temples in central America and said oh this is where it happened and then the LDS church kind of jumped on board with that because we didn’t have the scientific data and abilities that we have now. They just thought because there was a Temples there, this must be the Place. And that narrow strip of land.
What About Joseph's letter to Emma about sitting on a hillside in Ohio picking up the bones of the peoples who populated the America's and looking over mounds. Do we completely disregard what the restorative Prophet said. There is also the interview in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder where at one time they could visit their friends and then a catastrophic event occurred and they could only visit them by boat. There is just so much that says to me that both were areas of the events of the BOM.
The white God visiting is in several cultures North, central, and south America. They may have some of the blood line of the lamanite even if it is "watered" down and not showing in their DNA. I Personally believe it spread north to south. The gospel and some of the people. So they may still be lamanite descents. I am of welch descendancy but I truly believe I have ephraim blood in me. Does it show up in my DNA that I am Jewish decent. No it doesn't. But DNA test don't show all and they are still new technology and markers can be effected by disease, wars, etc.
Yay! Rod Meldrum! You're in good company. I miss his Come Follow Me channel. The Heartland model is the only one that makes sense to me. I can picture the lands when I read the Book of Mormon, in the heartland. I could never picture it in Central or South America.
Me too! Ever since I was a little girl, I just felt the Book of Mormon took place in the USA.
I've always thought the land of many waters had to be the Great Lakes area.
California was a island in the first maps , lake lahanton, and bonaville was many waters.... Lots of water change and drained fast..
I don’t see it as an either or scenario. It could be the original people of The Nephites were in the heartland, but we’re talking 2,623 years ago that they landed in America. The Lamanites spread to cover the face of the land, and are all over America. In Central America Lehi’s dream is depicted in some ancient ruins/temple. They have the temples of the sun, moon, and stars in Perú. They have elements of things, it’s just corrupted. Even The Book of Mormon records people sailing into the land northward. So they were all over, but maybe Zarahemla was in the heartland.
I used to be a meso guy but now I'm heartland all the way.
Nice to see Rod again.
Fascinating! Thank you for sharing this new resource with us.
This is great! I love Rod Meldrum!
Brother Meldrum, i hope you read the comments. We miss your videos! My father-in-law is a huge fan and has kept his large family informed of all your studies. He bought all of us your annotated edition of the Book of Mormon one Christmas. While my side of the family has all quit the church, i was so blessed to be close to my in-laws who defended the faith thanks so much in part to the work you’ve done on your channel.
Wow! Excellent interview with Rod Meldrum. We Washingtonian LDS don’t always get the scuttle but on divisions like you talked about. I see Rod is completely sincere about finding the evidence so we can take the Book of Mormon to the world, but have to also believe the Lord wants that element of faith in there, too, and would really like to hear your take on that. Will it ever really be proven without a doubt until the Savior returns?Thank you, Bro Matsen.
Today I'm going to start listening to every rod meldrum video beginning with his earliest video and get his big Book of Mormon back out to study it along with his old come follow me videos
I loved the interview on Cwic media. I can't find anything else lately that strengthens my testimony as much as hearing how true is the Book of Mormon
I love listening to Rod. He’s awesome! Thank you for having him on. I’m a heartlander, but I believe the Nephites and Lamanites could have gone all over the place.
Firm foundation is great! I really enjoyed the two times I have been there.
I lean toward heartland too haha. I didn’t even know what heartland referred to til just now lol. I got this book from someone downsizing called “This Land: Only One Cumorah” and it’s a heartland theory book.
A man named Frank Joseph wrote the Foreward, and he said this:
“…I was fortunate enough to visit many Mesoamerican sites…unfortunately, what I learned about these places and the cultures responsible for them was utterly at odds with everything my Mormon friend told me concerning their supposedly “real” identity. As a consequence, I dismissed all further consideration of Joseph Smith, who apparently based his religion on a silly fantasy.
Many years later…I met Wayne May and was impressed with his outstanding grasp of American prehistory. He told me to give The Book of Mormon another chance; to envision the events it portrayed taking place, not south of the Rio Grande River, but in our own country. Dubious but intrigued, I did as he suggested. The transformation was stunning. It was as though a fresh template placed over the drama presented in this haunting work suddenly brought everything into clear focus. I had been right. The Book of Mormon was nonsense as a Central American story. Quite the contrary, it made abundant sense when seen in the context of North America. Mr. May’s interpretation was obviously the correct one, and nothing short of a revelation.”
When I was on my mission, I had a book by Jack West that talked about the meso American theory. We also showed a filmstrip called “Ancient America Speaks “ that we showed to investigators that also went along with the meso American theory. But later when I was visiting a friend up by Salt Lake they had a speaker who was saying that the area of the Book of Mormon had to be much smaller than we first thought - but that it still was around Central America. At the end they took questions. I asked them how did they get up to Cumorah. They didn’t seem too have a good answer to that. After listening to people on your podcast talk about the alternative theory, it just makes more sense to me and I want to learn more about it.
Cummorah is not so much of a "conundrum" when you realize there is a Hopewell culture in NY.
I love hearing differrent perspectives. Its the only way you can actually have an informed opinion and not just be a parrot. I regret some of the comments below where people attack and want to cancel. Thanks for bringing diverse people on to have real discussions. Keep it up.
Wayne May is an expert on this. God is restoring ALL things, even the knowledge of the origins on the Book of Mormon peoples
This is great to see this discussion. I have spoken to Wayne May and several other people over the last few months. I have found something in the wilds of South Carolina. I also have been to several fortification places in the Appalachian Mountains, which I am convinced were some of the defensive Structures or “places of resort “built by Ronei and Nephites to prepare for the final battles and to act as short term defensive structures, guarding valleys and passes through the mountains. I’ve had some very special experiences while at some of these places. I’ve been doing amateur archaeology for a number of years. I started learning about it when I lived overseas and it is remarkable how similar some of the things I found over there are two some of the things I have found in North America. I have looked at the evidence supporting the Mesoamerica and heartland arguments, and I think that there are some very striking similarities, including the fortified settlements and Geo glyphs in the landscape, but… There are too many coincidences to be a coincidence when it comes to comparing the two different places. I am of the opinion after looking at everything I have seen, and people have found over the years that North America in fact, the entire eastern half of North America from the Mississippi river all the way to the East Coast from Florida. All the way up into Canada are in fact, the original setting of most of the stories of the book of Mormon. I also believe that the people in Central and South America played a part as well. I believe the “Mississippian culture quote has its origins from the snake cult, and the buzzard cult that came from central and South America, which had their origins amongst the Mayas, Aztecs, Incas, and Olmecs. There is a very distinctive difference in the culture and the artifacts. Even the Navajo will tell you that the people who lived in the south believed in things like slavery and blood sacrifice. Similar to the Lamanites. However, there is a difference, but I do think that some of the Lamanites mixed with some of the people of Asian ancestry who lived in the southern Americas and that is where some of the conflated information is also coming from. There are some twists and turns in this story and a lot more research needs to be done and people need to stop being divisive and get all of their research together to paint the bigger picture. It’s too late in our timeline to be arguing about this anymore. The Hopewell‘s came down as far south as Georgia and the Carolinas as well. I believe that Lehigh and his family landed in what is now known as Florida. The mountainous or rocky terrain would not have actually been mountains at all. It would have been giant wind driven sand dunes. Some of them are nearly 100 feet high. I have seen them on the East Coast and the West Coast of Florida and they could easily be mistaken for foothills. I’ve heard so many arguments, and none of them hold water. Once you realize that we all don’t know as much as we think we do. The earth has changed, and only the Lord and the angels have seen all of the changes.
I am one who can accept either or both areas BUT I struggle with Central and South America being the “promised lands “ or a land of “promise “ ? It just doesn’t fit .
They didn’t have the borders we have now. There’s no reason to think they didn’t consider all of it the promised land, and I don’t think the US needs to cover it all for that prophecy to be true.
Its not an either or. Meso and Heartland. When in doubt, zoom out. These are connected civilizations and people.
Pretty much how I see it. I wrote a separate comment mentioning Polynesians and the connection. I have a bro-in-law who has a Native American ancestry but I can't remember which group, (is that still OK to say? In Australia we use Indigenous when speaking of the Australian first peoples). Seriously, what is most wonderful is how we all are connected as children of Heavenly Father. The more we learn about ancestry, genetics (DNA), migration etc, just brilliant. And to think there's still other sheep out there.
Thank you for sharing your conversion story. It really strengthened my faith.
This all makes me wonder what we will learn about the Aboriginals that are in Australia. What tribe are they from? Are there sacred records that have been recorded and hidden up to a future day to be revealed somewhere in the Land Down Under? 😊 God’s Words and Works never cease… and it is written that there are MANY more scriptures yet to be revealed. Just something I think about from time to time.
So you’re proposing the Cape York Peninsula model?
Just found your channel, and I love it!
That closing hit me so hard. This is true, I think this is the purpose after all. For us to make a Choice.
Heartland Model... no doubt! All the rational evidence is in North America and the Holy Ghost supports it.
Greg, have you ever approached Wayne May for his input on your show?
Not yet!
@@robertstanley3832 .... "However, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles urge leaders and members not to advocate those personal theories in any setting or manner that would imply either prophetic or Church support for those theories. "
Good stuff Robert. The thing is, I never advocated the church supports anything here.
I'm talking about personal confirmation from the Holy Ghost. :>)
The Book of Mormon events occurred in the Heartland, but the blood of Lehi goes throughout all the Americas. Even among the ancient Hopewell the dominant DNA types overlap with what is found in Mesoamerica and South America. So the DNA points to extensive mixing throughout the Americas.
However, the Hopewell were very distinct culturally from Mesoamerica, and the X haplotype is restricted to North America (which may mean that the intermixing generally involved men travelling and mixing and not women with the X haplotype traveling South/mixing).
The corp of engineers leveled mound builders sites, some of our large cities are built on top of native American cities. Some are under water due to the massive undertaking to make a fixed course for the rivers. So much has been lost.
Can't wait to go to the FIRM foundation conference next month
Maize migrated North from Mesoamerica to the Heartland. Also, there's artificats found among the Pueblo/Navajo (Arizona-New Mexico) that show there was trade between them & Mesoamerica.
The Pueblo people were in the southwest centuries before the Navajo came from the east part of the continent. Also, the Mayans traded with pretty much evey indigenous people of North America. Mayan gold has been found in the Uinta mountains of Northern Utah.
Excellent. The Heartland model has so much to present.
Our family of 15 kids and also goodly parents-- had family (and personal) prayer morning and night (night with scripture reading) and family home evening without fail--- all are still faithful. Not that we are any better than any others but it certainly made a difference. My father's patriarchal blessing says that he is "an Ephraimite in very deed". We have ancestry that goes back over 2300 years to Assyria. We have 7% Middle Eastern DNA. I believe many of us have 1/10,000th percent Josephmite DNA.
Thank you Brother Meldrum!
Regarding the geography I wonder why no one seems to account for the destruction mentioned in 3 Nephi 8 which mentions the whole face of the earth being changed, I believe the Heartland model is correct, but it would be nice to see that addressed. Thanks for your hard work Greg, I really appreciate your videos.
My brother is a geologist and has studied this. As much destruction took place, it was not likely so extensive as to change an entire continent.
I’ve actually wondered about that as well.
This is awesome. I truly believe that the Hopewells are the Lamanites. I’ve always believe that the American Indians were Lamanites because of the book of Mormon, and what Joseph Smith said in the doctrine covenants I’ve never thought by the looks of South American people they look Asian.
My 11th direct uncle is Massasoit the great Algonquin chief of the Wampanoag confederacy 1581-1661. Though my dads' family is from Hungary and English -Irish -Scotch and my mother is French and Indian. When I was diagnosed with cancer and when they checked my blood they were shocked and retested my blood two more times because I am 100% Asian. My lineage in my patriarchal blessing says I am a descendant of Israel [Jacob] and my grandfather is Joseph who was sold into Egypt, that I am also related to Nephi. This is such a testimony to me and I am so happy to be watching this. This is so confirming. Thank you Thank you so much.
Awesome interview! I’m torn between both models. I think there’s awesome scholarship on both sides.
I have always followed how you explained truth. How you exude truth. You teach truth. Joseph said our church goes after truth wherever it comes from. That's why the Holy Ghost has to guide us.
My ancestry goes through the Chickasaw, Ojibwa, Cherokee, blood line. I of course did my DNA ancestry test, and not one trace of Native American shows up in the results. Only 4 generations separates me from my grandmother who was full blooded Chicasaw
I also have a couple Tribes in my ancestry and have worked with dna for years. Many people have asked about why their ancestry doesn’t show Native American dna when they know they definitely are. My thinking is……..why would it show Native American? Isn’t that more of a title given to a people living in America? Wouldn’t the ancestry go back to where your tribe originated from and show heritage of a small percent of say Jewish etc? I believe it’s just another way the adversary keeps people from being able to answer those questions.
my test said the same thing ,i do not believe it ,I AM OF CHEROKEE BLOOD LINE
After six generations it’s possible and typical not to have any traceable DNA from some of your ancestors.
I honestly dont really trust dna tests 100%. My dads grandma was 100% Indian and there is 0 in his dna test.
"Native American" is not an ethnic group. The Pacific Northwest Haida, for instance, are part of the Athabascan group, which immigrated from eastern Asia during the last glacial period ("ice age") when sea levels were much lower and, curiously, a wide strip of land from Alaska to modern United States was not glaciated; permitting overland travel.
This is very interesting as is all scriptural and biblical history is. Things I am pretty sure of are there is a link between the USA (Heartland if you would like to say) and Western/meso/south America. I have a Maori friend who went with her fiancee to South America and he is not a member. He stated that he could see that there would have to be a connection between the Polynesian people and those that they visited. She said that many expected her to speak Spanish. Of my Polynesian friends most seem to come from the tribe of Manasseh. I remember reading in the Book of Mormon how branches or groups of people left and travelled to islands. Either way you go, Heartland or Mesoamerica model I am positive our eternal salvation is not going to hinge on what side of the fence you sit on that one. 😊
That narrow neck of land - that hangs so many people up who claim it must be Panama - COULD have been elsewhere - that perhaps is explained when the entire geography of the land changed when Christ came.
I think a person has to be willing to listen with an open mind and listen to their heart. I was a Meso, but now and certain it is Heartland. It just make sense, it feels right. And I've always felt Mesoamerica ppl are from India or China. Their temples, look like the Temples in India. Their faces, their oriental eyes are more Asian. The new BOM movie about Christ coming to Bountiful, they had about half of the ppl and background .North American Indian, the other half meso.
So good to hear these thoughts and ideas - question is there a Zoom option for remote listening of the Sept Conference ?
This was so so inormative. Thank you so much for your work. I am listening to this after the Foundation confrence. Is there any recordings of the speakers of the confrence?
Remember the movie the Fighting Preacher? That was a surprisingly good movie if you haven't seen it.
Here's a relevant quote:
Pursuant to the acquisition of the Hill Cumorah in Manchester, New York in 1928, President Anthony Ivins declared in General Conference, “It was here that two once-powerful nations were exterminated so far as their national existence was concerned. It was here that these nations gathered together for the last great struggles…all of the sacred records of the Nephite people, were deposited by Mormon in that hill.” (Improvement Era [June 1928]; see also “Celebration of the Purchase of the Hill Cumorah,” p. 440.
Thanks, Greg! See you at the next BOM Conference!
Could someone please explain to me which prophecy in the book of Mormon regarding “this land” could not be prophesied from Mesoamerica assuming they were about the United States nation. Borders are constantly changing, but “this land” is bigger than the United States.
I don’t really get the people that worry about the “this land” part. It seems myopic to me. The promised land seems much more like the American continent not just the US the events of the BoM seem contained to a more limited area but it says many spread out leaving the area they’re in and that the book only contains a small portion of what’s going on. Moroni’s purpose for the book was the religious history not the general history.
@@ThoseOneGuysInc yeah it really requires a narrow interpretation. Same with the word Lamanites in the D&C. It seems clear in the BoM that that label was hoisted upon anyone outside a Nephite.
@jerry_phillips and @ThatOneGuysinc
As I see it, using "Lamanite" as a moniker is like using "Gentile" as a moniker in that it's all in how they are used, to whom they are applied and why. And that's true for any names, titles etc.
So in BOM, at first the Lamanites were the direct descendants of Laman, Lemuelites of Lemuel etc then they all eventually got appended as Lamanites and the Nephites were the direct descendants of Nephi, Samnites of Sam etc and all of them were eventually appended as Nephites and those appendings were for purposes of simplifying the recognition or recognizing of the various people groups but also to keep them separate and distinct from each other as to their group names, identities, bloodlines etc.
But then eventually because of dissensions from the church and certain church haters eventually overcoming their hatred for the church and joining, they started mixing bloodlines so the Lamanites and the Nephites were no longer distinct from each other as far as bloodlines and other such stuff goes. Rather they were distinguished from each other solely by their beliefs/belief systems. And so there was a mixing/mixture of blood between the original Lamanites and the original Nephites. Then eventually there was further mixture of bloodlines with the Mulekites, the Amulinonites, Amlicites, Amalekites, Amalichiahites and all of the other -ites in the ancient Americas. And all of the wicked were called Lamanites and all of the righteous were called Nephites.
Similar with the title "Gentile" which was originally defined as literally anyone who was not Jewish and still is not Jewish. Later it began to be applied to anyone who was or is not Christian. Also I think it is Webster's that also defines it as that mormons (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) uses Gentiles to refer to anyone who is not of that faith.
And so it is with any labels.
Who actually are Asian, Native American, African, European, Middle Eastern, Pacific Islander, male, female, non binary, gender fluid, asexual, intersex, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, old, young, fat, skinny, big, small and so on and so forth etc? You know. Who knows. Who really knows what with all of the craziness we all are bombarded with nowadays. You know what I mean? 🙄😏
@@jonathanray7931 yeah I think you’re expanding on the same point I was making. I view “Lamanite” as generic term for any native of the American continent. It’s pretty clear that the bloodlines of the groups in the Book of Mormon have all gone extinct due to the much larger population of preexisting inhabitants and the relatively smaller and wiped out population of Book of Mormon peoples.
I agree with Rod. I think the Heartland placement of the Book of Mormon is now mainstream. Everybody I talk to is just tired of the Meso America, two Hill Cumorah and SITH theories. But then again, maybe I'm a conservative, right wing, nationalist hater!?
I love the annotated edition of the Book of Mormon.
What are* you talking about? Annotated?
@dcarts5616
"... street..."? What are >you< talking about? @sherilynmills6394 said nothing about a street. She talked solely about her love for the annotated version of the Book of Mormon. It simply means that the Book of Mormon has notes (usually footnotes) added to it as explainers of what is written in the book, much like the Bible has and lots of other books have or even used to have along with glossaries, indexes, references, forewords, prologues, epilogues, book jackets, summaries/summations etc. You know, stuff like that.
Make any sense? I sure hope so. God bless you and yours and take care.
@@jonathanray7931 I had a typo lol. And I guess I was thinking of something else, like another version just came out. Thanks.
@@dcarts5616 go to Des Book and pick you own copy of this Book of Mormon. It has hundreds of pages of insights of facts about phrases and research and background and etc why the prophets wrote what they wrote and what everything means. Plus testimonies to back up the back ups .... annotated!!!!
This is awesome!!
Great Interview Brothers! Now..I Recently Watched The Most Powerful Video On The Heartland Model, Ever!! The Spirit Moved Me To Heartfelt Tears- Brother David Lindsley's "The Nephites Lived Where?" Should Be Mandatory For ALL Students of The Church, In My Humble Opinion.
I am a Heartland believer.
I had a miraculous conversion to the Savior and the gospel in Oct 2016. I started trying to read the Book of Mormon as directed by the Lord and it was so confusing to me! I need to picture things as the stories are described and I had been told it happened in Central America. I prayed and said, “Please help me understand. This doesn’t make sense!” The next time I picked up my phone I opened TH-cam and scrolled down the page past two posts. The 3rd post was “Book of Mormon Geography by Wayne May”! I knew it was my answer to prayer and after watching that 80 minute video it all made so much sense! 🙌
I had the same experience right before my mission. I was studying the Book of Mormon in detail and was wondering where it took place as I wanted to visualize as I read. I was studying Meso American theories and I just couldn’t make the bridge. It made no sense to me. I was confused (not doubtful but confused) as I knew the Book of Mormon was true but it just didn’t fit in Meso America. I prayed about it and the next day I came across Wayne May’s TH-cam videos on my suggested section and my mind was blown. I re-read the Book of Mormon and wow. Everything made sense!
Wow! That’s amazing. Thanks for the comment. I feel like the Lord wants to make sure no one is confused by the erroneous departure from truth in the geography story. Ironically, I just noticed a typo in my comment! It was October 2019, not October 16! I was typing the numbers on the square keyboard of my laptop where the 6 is directly over the 9. Not that it matters to anyone else, but the date is wrong in my original comment. 🤦🏻♀️🤷🏻♀️😄
How long does Moroni travel with his father Mormon during the upheaval, and how long does Moroni travel alone before he deposits the plates? Where does he travel from? I think it's possible that he could have traveled from Central America to New York?
Did he deposit it in the same general location as most of the events take place?
Thank you for having Meldrum on.
Christ gave the answer to this “question “ to the Nephites in 3rd Nephi in
Christ’s declarations (prophecies)towards the gentiles
I really enjoyed this. I haven't been a heartlander actually- but am coming around. It feels right. Other than the "blossoming" thing. Still trying to figure that one out.
Will the seminar on September 15-16 be live streamed and or record for later viewing?
And there is the room in the Hill Cumorah recently discovered by a little child who fell into the hole. We do not have pictures from inside and we don't know the extent of that Room. We have only pictures from the outside of the hole.
Greg, all this is really fascinating. I'm still wondering why the Garden of Eden is located in Missouri. Other than Revelation how did that come to be ?
Maybe a subject for another show? Thanks for all you do
I'm prepared to accept the Heartland model. The issue for me is when you look at a world map and take into account trade winds and the doldrums area, how does a ship get from present day Yemen/Oman area where the Lehi group left from to Florida area?
Go watch the video about the replica Phoenician ship that sailed around the southern horn of Africa. They have made 2 trips and landed the vessel in Florida.
Does Rod have a TH-cam channel or any other social media?
I lean toward the heartland model, but I have a question about Hagoth. Where would he sail from?
In my childhood there was the explorer, and I don't know how to spell his name correctly, heyerdahl? And he proved currents in the ocean where you could travel from the old world to the new world. He actually built a boat with native materials and sailed to America. He also proposed the mesoamerica idea. He came to our Ward house with his films and proofs, such as depiction of the tree of life in Temples and other things. His information was also on television later on. This is why I grew up believing it was mesoamerica . But those ruins were more Egyptian and such in actuality.
The Kon-Tiki and Ra ll Expeditions by Norwegian explorer Thor Heyerdahl. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 Yes, you have his name correctly! Thanks! 👍
You do understand that when you make the Egyptian connection with Meso America, you are also making the case for the Book of Mormon connection.
Have you read about Philip Beale and his reconstructed Phoenician ship that he sailed from Lebanon, around Africa and back? He came within a couple hundred miles from the east coast of this country. He had a hard time getting back to the Mediterranean Sea. Later he sailed from Morocco to the Caribbean. The Kon-Tiki is interesting, but has nothing to do with Lehi's voyage. Tons of info online about this amazing adventure!
@@jaredite8388 you are correct!
It would be great to see Wayne May on here next for added information that he has
Greg,
You also should talk to Wayne May as he is the guru of the Book of Mormon Geography.
There is only 1 Hill and it is in Palmyra, New York, USA
I’m wondering how the Hopewell airburst falls into place. There is good research on cosmic impacts as well as above ground impacts like Tunguska. Some earthworks have a comet looking effigy.
As a new convert my freshman year of High School (1980) I remember being so confused… Nephi was shown and puts in his record, the events that were going to take place upon the land he was now in like the Revolutionary war, and his descendants being removed from their land by these new people that came from across the ocean, but then books I read, classes I attended, lessons that were taught to me, artwork I saw etc all taught that Central America was the land the Book of Mormon took place in, but it just made no sense to me and I was just so confused
Nephi’s account of the future he was shown, concerning the land where he now lived, gives all the information anyone needs to know as to where the Book of Mormon lands are, and none of it are any of the things that have ever taken place in Central America…
Thanks for your information
This is fascinating to me. Thank you. So much rings truth.
I believe I've met this brother and I've taken a class from him and his wife years ago.
I grew up believing and being taught that the Nephites and Lamanites were in America as well. Mesoamerica i guess??
Anyway, my grandpa was a Book of Mormon scriptorian and professor of religion at BYU for years.
It makes perfect sense to me and to claim it was through the Gulf of Mexico and further south has always felt so controversial to what's in our scriptures and what Joseph Smith taught and where his revelations occurred.
Smith also spoke in favor of the mesoamerica. Just in case you missed that