Just for reference, team rwby helps the woman who keeps stealing Ironwoods supplies that he needs to finish repairing a wall to keep Grimm out, and the communication tower, then they and the woman who constantly robs him berate him for not being finished with repairs
Adam is an antagonist but not a villain people seem to have a problem with separating the two The characters in helluva boss are hellborn they can’t be redeemed because they were born there
I've always found it strange how shallow the conflict between heaven and hell is. The show try to make you side with the sinners by making Adam an idiotic douch character, but... He still killing BAD people.
arent they at hell already who gives a shit hell can never stand up to heaven we all saw how defensless everyone was against adam alone lucifer is canonically stronger than all of the 7 rings of hell combined hell cant pose a threat to heaven 2nd a rehabilitation program (charlies idea) is much much better than eliminating "bad people" they are already in hell who gives a shit like for example if u sinned and went to hell does that mean u should be killed ?
Adam is only a villain to the main character (antagonist). Like how in a villain story where the villain is the main character the antagonist would be the hero, even though the hero isn’t a bad person its just they are the antagonist to the main character. Adam maybe have a horrible personality but he not a villain. Adam just goes against the main character whole goal. (Sorry for any grammar mistakes)
The thing about Adam is I don't like how he's written Ik he's an antagonist n all so it makes sense that he'd be spoiled and obnoxious as his flaws but c'mon, this is heaven and I feel like it's lazy writing, jus making the antagonist an unreasonable asshole just cuz you want the audience to know "yo, this guy sucks" Ig I jus wished they toned it down Maybe if he was more manipulative, maybe
I blame British comic book writers like Alan Moore and Garth Ennis for their cynical and nihilistic portrayals of Christianity. Notable examples of this are "Preacher" and "Constantine," which reflect their views on religion. Since these works gained popularity in the 90s, it’s unsurprising that others sought to emulate their success to get rich, which caused the idea of heaven and the angels to be as bad or worse as hell and its inhabitants to become a staple in pop culture.
It's funny how many people really like Adam despite them trying to make him seem so unlikeable. Charlie calls sinners innocent souls but i highly doubt that most didn't commit heinous shit in life
I’ve watched both shows, yeah, she’s probably insecure or hurt, why? Well it isn’t wrong being insecure but like, she makes all the villains one sided, Ozmodeus from HB with Fizzaroli (the embodiment of Lust and a Imp Jester who’s a celebrity) are set up in episode seven to seem live villains who would rival even the strongest character so far, and the main character both mentally and physically, but no, instead they just threw it away, he really seemed like a unique villain along with Season 1 Striker, but they threw it all away, and the villains are all assholes who are one sided say cuss words and threatened the “fun guys” of the shows
I mean, he is the Dick Master. The first Dick, all humanity came from his nuts. The show tries to paint it like misogyny but its a literal fact, he is the father of mankind and sinners are his worthless children, waking stains of his legacy on Earth. So when he exterminates sinners it is a deeply personal affair, one he takes a personal, direct hand in. Its easy to play off his joking behavior as juvenile because lets face it it is but that's not all it is. Sinners aren't just a legacy of failures in gods light but also servants of Lilith who the series props up as hells defacto leader and source of inspiration over Lucifer, and Ironically while the series does this they also show her chilling in heaven Beach side as her people are being slaughtered due to a secreted alliance in Heaven she isn't just aware of but to some degree aids. Adam is both an unwitting pawn and an unsung Hero of Heaven as Sera keeps their exploits hidden, something Adam is shown to be uncomfortable with, we see multiple times he is proud of his work and dislikes Heaven keeps it on the down low. At the end of the day he fought for what he believed in with true, pure convictions. He fought monsters and was incapable as seeing them as anything but monsters even in his final moments because in all of history not a single sinner redeemed themselves. The sad irony being the first Sinner to do so only happened to do so due to Adams direct involvement and intervention. He died ignorant that he had a direct hand in redeeming the first sinner ever. Do I think vivziepop thought of any of that when making the show? Hell no, but that's part of Adams charm, he was ironically the most HUMAN of the cast in all the best and worst ways and on some level most viewers resonate with that.
@@avery2041 When exactly did Charlie say that sinners are innocent? Point out the exact episode and scene. There's a difference between saying that a person can be redeemed and that they did nothing wrong. Only an idiot doesn't know.
@@LeonReal77 While i don't know if Charlie directly said that, that is how shes portraying them to the angels. That's why the line comes up at all in reference to the sinners.
It may have been the angel girl actually. I know she said something along the lines of "those poor innocent souls!" Charlie seems implied that she thinks ALL of them are simply uwu innocent beans
The "sinners are innocent" concept makes zero sense. If they are innocent, then they wouldnt need to be rehabilitated bc they did nothing that warrentd needed to be rehabilitated in the first place
also, redemptions logically can only coexist with exterminations, because there obviously won't be enough redemptions per year to counter the hell's ever increasing population, so you still need someone to clean it up for you.
I swear, this show seems to have little to no self awareness when it comes to how sinners are portrayed. They got sent to Hell because they did terrible things when they were alive. We also see that, while in Hell, these sinners continue to commit the same vile acts that got them sent there in the first place. Despite this, the show wants us to think that they deserve a shot at redemption when not only are they objectively terrible but they also are shown to not even be interested in redeeming themselves. Looking back on it, it definitely does seem that the only reason Adam was written to have an insufferable personality was because that was the ONLY way to get us to hate him.
Honestly the reason this video is true is simply because the writers are Insanely lazy They wanted le epic nuance what if heaven is evil stuff But they also wanted to make the show about only sex jokes and random violence It would be cool to explore adams motives for killing sinners other than the weak "prevent them from gaining power" stuff that the show presents Like what if Adam viewed himself as an intentional mercy killer? That could be cool :] Idk this show is really bad at having any nuance in any topic it tries to talk about
Heaven is not evil, i will never get that idea and i don't know where that comes from, when Heaven does not even know about the extermination and only the higher ups know (that is calling venezuela Evil because of the president)actually thats Sera reason, Adam reasons is because he founds it fun. By the way, not even in the context of him giving her a merciful death, because ignoring the senselessness that would be, if you die in hell as a sinner, your vital energy returns to hell as Eyes, and you are permanently in a nothing where you see yourself.
@Sonic2024freedomera its so obvious that heaven basically has zero worldbuilding compared to hell Cuz like hell has all these rings and species and the way you look reflects your sins and life and the way you died and theres diffirent districts and towns and you can become an overlord and do soul contracts.. And heaven... Is just a good place Idk its just so boring to me The show feels like it consistently chooses the easiest option and its really annoying
@@explodingpartyhats5438 In fact, heaven has the same mechanic of "you become what you were in life" and all that will be done in season 2 or with the advancement of the series (because apparently people say that Hazbin has no world building, but also they say that everything should not be released in season 1...what)
@@Sonic2024freedomera British comic books, that is where the idea came of Heaven being evil, just read any comic book written by a British guy, and any mention of religion and you will see how nihilistic is
I wanna know what motivated Charlie to start trying to redeem sinners. Who’d she meet? What’d she see? What’d she hear? I like the one idea someone had where she met Judas and he told her about Jesus’ teachings.
Too bad Jesus doesn’t exist in this show as Vivzie has said in a stream before that she doesn’t want to put him in it, she doesn’t explain why but back in her tumblr days I used to follow her back then and she clearly has an inner grudge against the KJV Bible because she doesn’t see it as fair but again that her belief so if her logic and writing in the show seems amateurish and edgy well that’s because the art reflects the creator
He’s right about sinners during Hell Is Forever Why would Charlie even wanna help these guys? When all they do is treat her like $hit and make fun of her every way posssible. Not to mention they’re in hell for a reason, they did many crimes like killing, stealing, possibly SA and are even preds. Not to mention they’re oppressive and dictative like Vox. Sometimes people can’t change. Adam was the true hero, not Charlie
Charlie doesn't want respect (not the kind of respect one would have in hell, kind of fear or fame) nor does she want money (she's the princess of hell, she already has money for her entire eternal life)the reason why she wants to redeem them is because she loves them...why?i want to know that exact same reason.
Since u brought up roshack, i wanted to mention that he was the only real good guy of the movie. All the other Watchmen were either sexual criminals or literally compliant with murdering millions of innocent ppl. Yet roshack is supposed to be in the wrong bc hes fine with killing evil ppl. Like W H A T
Okay so lets talk about Spawn, cuz hes honestly a good example of a sinner wanting redemption. Before becoming a sinner, Spawn in his life was a government assassin that took peoples lives. When not killing people, he actually has a loving wife, but unfortunately unable to procreate. Now after he was killed due to a conspiracy, he ended up in hell and now is under threat of being forced into an unholy army. Sometime later he escapes to the human world to hideaway from others. Unfortunately, he cant go home to his wife, due to her remarrying and having a kid, not to mention he's physically disfigured so she wouldnt even recognize That right there gives you a more morally grey character. He was an assassin for the government tasked with killing whomever, but he also was a loving husband. Now funny enough, Spawn is not even remotely portrayed as a hero nor a villain. For the majoritive, he has less friends than Batman and is essentially a homeless man with superpowers, however he does use them to kill bad people while back on earth. The problem with Hazbin and Helluva is, EVERYONES an antihero despite their issues. And when everyones the antihero, there is no conflict. Thus no story.
Charlie is a hero, Blitz is a villain but he is a lesser evil one, he has done nothing heroic more than saving his boyfriend, Moxxie is a anti villain but he also has done nothing heroic either, i can honestly go with the list.
@@christopherbravo1813 Why would she be a villain? She is not trying to dominate the world, or she is a cruel murderer, or she was planning to start a war against heaven (in fact the war thing was started by Adam, Charlie wanted to avoid the conflict) Charlie just wants her to be stop the killings against the people she loves, and it occurred to her to try to make them better.
@@Sonic2024freedomera There are more than three types of villains. Furthermore, what Adam was trying to do was his job. It was Charlie who escalated it into a war-likely dooming all of Hell as Heaven will undoubtedly refuse to take this lying down. Also, "people she loves"? That definition extends to, at most, seven or eight people. She has not demonstrated a personal connection with the cruel murderers, tyrants, warmongers, or other miscreants that make up 99.9% of Hell's population. So I say again: Why is Charlie a hero?
Honestly I think a big problem was caused by vivs “hesitation” to make anything other then what we already frown upon to be sinful most likely in fear of the backlash from Christian and alike faith audiences I feel like it would have greatly benefited the show if things like being gay were sinful as for the show to showcase how hell can be an extreme or unjust punishment
Yeah. She shouldn't care about the backlash from religious people. Some of them are just crazy (coming from a religious person). Like....we have stuff like Helltaker for crying out loud, why would hazbin and helluva boss be any different? (Besides helltaker being a harem..thing. It's still Hell). And I think she said being gay doesn't send you to hell because the amount of lgbt people in her fandom and they are also crazy.
All of the main characters in both shows are in the rainbow specter, so I got mixed signals here, either Vivz is saying that LGBT is a hell thing or that there are more Gay people in hell? Honestly, the last type of show one should add that type of inclusion should be one based around hell
Its also importat to remember Adam is not chacterized very well in the show. He is made out to be a one-dimensionally evil strawman for who killing is fun, JUST so the show can have a villain from Heaven that the "good" demons can fight. If your chatacter has to kill a puppy on screen every couple minutes just to remind people how evil they are, they're not evil. Just poorly written, and Adam is so, because to put thought into actually making him complex with good motivations, he might just be more right in his actions than peple are willing to admit.
angel is neutral, Husk is complicated (he was an overlord) and now he is owned by Alastor, Alastor just does stuff for himself, Niffty is...well...Niffty, Vaggie was an excorcists in the past, Sir pentious. ..actually he is fine, or maybe not, more or less, Charlie is the only good one and she is the only one who can't even go to Heaven. and we are assuming that Hazbin Hotel was always going to make a Rick and Morty or Bojack Horseman level mega complex (the inspiration, but that, inspiration) also Adam is not right in any action he has done, mostly because of his own intentions, it sounds good on theory, but thats on theory, in the doing...yeah
@ you seem to understand them a bit better than the rest here to give you an example she won't be trying to reform Cletus Cassidy ever I can assure you.
The morality in this show is really ass backwards the more I think about it. Hell is treated more like a place misunderstood people go to, and Heaven are the oppressors. There's no pride in being a bad person but this show, (and Helluva Boss), seems to think so
i can count with my hand who are misunderstood...Sir pentious, that one guy who drowned and Rita...yeah thats it, if you want me to make it longer, then we have Angel dust, a few sinners that suffer in the song of happy day in hell, and...well thats it. and for the last time, ONLY ADAM and extermination is bad, most of heaven is not bad
This explains why Adam didn’t seem all that hated to me because I found I enjoyed his character once I had time seek out other view points on him and he’s far from the most evil character I ran into. Sure he’s killing sinners and is rude but he’s not exploiting the people under him like Valentino is. Also it’s pretty bad when you feel bad for the companions of the slain villain, in this case Lute when she watched helplessly as her connabder was slain in front of her; as opposed to Sir Pentious, who was labeled as misunderstood rather than evil being zapped out of existence. Sure he’s the “goid boy” but his death didn’t feel that impactful as Adam’s did. As for Helluva Boss, it’s definitely the better of the two shows, for as messy as it is too. The reason is that the lead, Blitzo/Blitz isn’t perfect and we as the audience see that his actions and mistakes have consequences that he’s now starting to face. Compare that to a naive princess who feels that everyone can be saved even if the people she’s trying to save aren’t interested in being saved. Who do you think is more relatable?
I'm not going to deny that the two did love each other, although I'm not going to tell you that Lute deserved a lot of sympathy, yes, Adam died, but the girl was so evil, I would even say that her racism was more noticeable. As for Helluva Boss, that series clearly got more, it has more episodes (season two had 12 and season three will have 15)but again, in comparison, blitz is a villain in his series, not because he is the actual villain, but because of his crimes, and also he is very cynical and knows where his place is in hell, but still tries to raise up over his own class, while Charlie is the hero, but she is naive and has extreme levels of optimism for a realm that is...well...horrible
@ Sure Lute is terrible in her own way but it doesn’t mean I can’t feel bad for her. Yes, I didn’t like that she killed Dazzle but I can accept she at least cares for someone even if he’s a rude asshole. As far as Blitz is concerned, he’s awful and jaded but still determined to make a name for himself, something that is difficult for imps to accomplish in Hell. Face it, he didn’t start out as a jaded cynic and his upbringing contributed to his self loathing and inability to form stable relationships. Where as Charlie, I get she’s beacon of hope for those stuck in Hell that wish to better themselves. I get positivity is her middle name but I don’t know if that’s enough to save those that she wishes to redeem. I am not trying to convince you of anything, bringing up further points that I may have not mentioned.
With the Rumbler crying about his adoptive hapa sister sleeping with another man after being punched by his best childhood butt-buddy friend? Yes please.
I'm sure somebody else has probably mentioned it, but that cannibal child point they made in the show has always bothered me because they could've elaborated on it. For all we know based on what the show has told us, this child is a horrible person because everybody in Hell is meant to be aeful people who've done messed up things in life. However, if this show is meant to be a critique on some aspects of religion (like I've seen a few posts by the Hazbin crew claim), not elaborating on these things makes it hard to see those critiques. Like, from our point of view, she just tried sparing a cannibal child because they were a child. We have no idea what this child has done when alive (outside of assuming cannibalism based on the type of demon they are), or if that's even the sole reason why she tried sparing them. Why not try to make a point of how children are malleable, to the point many countries don't find them guilty of crimes under a certain age? In that case, perhaps Heaven is judging people too harshly without looking at the mental states or privileges of each sinner. Or, what if this child is a cannibal, but it was a survival situation? Then Heaven would also have been throwing people who had no choice but to commit sin in order to survive, which isn't fair as it locked those people into it. Or, which this was what I was hoping they were going to do, what if that child literally just didn't know what they were eating because their parents gave them their food and lied? But they didn't make any arguments for this, and we have no reason to believe the exorcists can just look at a sinner and immediately know the context of their entire lives, so why wouldn't they feel as if they have to kill them? They go to Hell, where they're told the worst of humanity is and that they must kill them to make room for more, so they aren't given a reason to sympathize with them. And it sucks, because I can think of a bunch of easy arguments they could've made over a cannibal child being in Hell, both for and against the idea, that just weren't brought up. Ideas that would make the world uilding less confusing by simply bringing up those arguments, because it'd allow the audience to see both Heaven and Hell's views on what a sin is. Which, for a show that's supposed to be about Christianity, is pretty important but isn't explained properly.
Heaven doesn't even know about the exterminations, Sera only approves them, she doesn't look at anything, Adam's only order apparently is "kill all sinners for the whole day" and that's it. and the show is not even about Christianity at all
@@Sonic2024freedomera My only issue with the argument which I see a lot is the show isn't about Christianity but yet uses multiple figures FROM the Bible. Adam, Abel, Metatron, Saint Peter, Lucifer, Eve and Lilith to name the most common. If Vivzy isn't writing bible fanfiction I don't know how else this can be excused? I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus doesn't show up at some point as some weird caricature of what she thinks Jesus is.
@@Sonic2024freedomera Its concerning that so many people argue vivzys heaven and hell isn't based on Christianity when it is? Like I'm fine with it being an altered, warped or debased interpretation of it, again Bible fanfiction but its odd that its handwaved en masse that its not supposed to be Christen Heaven and Hell by fans when it is?
The show goes on about "second chances" as if every second we're alive on earth isn't a chance to change. Heaven isn't evil just because these people died procrastinating their improvement. By that logic, I can go "Hurr durr, maybe hitler is a good guy now cause he said sowwy in Hell!!" Like bro, leave it to Hazbin Hotel fans to defend r8pists and murderers
What's funny is even Alastir says your first sentence in the Pilot! To paraphrase: "Nothing can save these lowly sinners! No, our chance to change was the life we lived before, and our punishment is this!"
I love how hazbin hotel stands are all hating on him in the comments when literally, Adam is making sure the wretched ones suffer for all of their sins.
many people actually love Adam (the hispanic part of the fandom adores him ALOT, yeah also the english side too). They are already in hell, trapped and can't get out, basically all this is out of pure sadism and that's it, it's like going to jail and killing a criminal, who can't get out of jail under any possible way, that's not true. is doing justice, that is being a sadist
@Sonic2024freedomera true but I mean if a guy goes to jails to kill r@pists, murderers, etc for enjoyment at least me myself would hv more sympathy for him than the r@pist he's killing. Doesn't mean I agree with him or think it's the right thing to do. It seems like the show ironically tries to paint Adam in a black and white 100% evil villian fashion while at the same time claiming that things aren't black and white
@@iy8-z1o It's not about sympathy, because Adam definitely hasn't proven that he deserves sympathy, nor have sinners, but you can tell when someone does something so cruel, they look more like the criminals they kill rather than someone who thinks he is doing the right thing, he is not thinking he is doing the right thing, he thinks what he is doing is fun, and he cannot get punished for it because they are evil, when what he is doing is evil even the people are evil. It's like thinking that stealing from a thief doesn't make you a thief.
@@5P_OFFICIAL People don't suffer? Would you understand if the idea that hell is infinite, constant fire wasn't seen, but that people don't suffer? That's false. In the series it is seen that there are sinners who have their houses burned down, or who kill each other (there is a district that is basically a constant war) the cannibals devour the dead bodies, but because almost all of them are immortal for being sinners, they regenerate. (except if they kill you with angelic weapons) the overlords have MILLIONS of souls, and the treatment they give to those souls is not the prettiest, Husk when he was an Overlord bet the souls as if they were money, Alastor has Husk and Niffty as if they were his slaves (although Niffty doesn't care, Husk clearly does not want to be chained) Vox controls people to buy his products, Valentino, well we already know what that guy does, Zestial with just His presence makes people want to hurt themselves or want to run away. The only reason hell doesn't seem so horrible is because we see it from the perspective of the princess of hell, and she is the third most powerful being in hell (and apparently the only pacifist in all of hell) and she has very high protection. I'd say it's better for everyone if Adam hadn't done anything.
This is just a really old tactic that writers use when they can't come up with good reasons for their villains to be evil, despite their plots not being black & white. (Bad writing imo, as someone who's been in the writing business a long time)
I hv never seen a Fandom so willing to defend evil acts including cannibalism, murder, sexual immorality, phycopathy, etc like the hazbin hotel Fandom does
@@Thunderblock7889not woke, just coping, Woke is highlighting an issue of society or social injustice, They’re just coping or delusional, either one makes sense.
I think the hazbin fandom is extremely goofy but fear mongering about “the demon worshippers” is also silly. Let’s be honest with ourselves. They’re not “satanic demon worshippers”, they’re teenagers who just want to enjoy their demon twink yaoi. Pretty standard for kids at that age.
Holy fucking _'This Guy Is Based To High Heaven'_ Batman!!! You covered all my gripes with Vizvieslops garbage writing. ✅ *The Lacking Worldbuilding* ✅ *The Sinner Demon Apologism* ✅ *The Swiss Cheese Levels Of Plotholes* ✅ *THE FUCKING INFO THAT SHOULD BE IN THE SERIES AND NOT ON GODDAMN STREAMS!!!* Everything im looking for in a critique of this indie-tumblr shifest of a show. And also the GOAT Adam anaylsis that doesn't just label him a _'Sexist Genocide Stinkyhead'_ You've earned my thumbs up, based sir. Consider me a subscriber. 💛🪽
This is a very good point. Though the presence of God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit is never even implied, Heaven and Hell in Hazbin do seem to fall under the Moral Law, as argued for in Christianity and other western worldviews. These laws clearly mark certain things as wrong, though conditions can be applied. For example, lying is wrong, unless failing to lie would cause a greater harm. Similarly, murder is wrong, but killing in self-defense is not. If one violates the Moral Law, one is condemned to Hell as a punishment for their sins. Thus, any sinner who ends up in Hell has already been judged guilty for their crimes. Adam and the Angels killing them is less of a judgement and more of a delayed execution. Plus, it could even be argued that Adam killing the Demons is merciful, as he is ending their eternal punishment and permitting them to disappear into oblivion. An argument could be made that the Demons who were born from non-sinners in Hell are actually worthy of not being killed, but considering how most of the Demons in Helluva Boss act, most of them are just as bad as the sinners.
What the show seemed to be going for was questioning how those judgements are made, and wether or not they actually hold weight, but so little focus is put on that element of the show it winds up feeling undercooked.
@@scootermcpeanuts6699 They're probably saving that for later seasons. For now what's established is that nobody really knows what makes someone either a sinner or redeemed.
@@ethancox9737 I.M.P are hellborn paid by sinners to go to earth to kill Humans, in most cases creating more Sinners. This kills humans and accelerates Hells population Crisis. So yes, Sinners are a direct threat to Humanity as even in hell they can spread misery, loss and death to Earth.
@@Kushrada that actually makes so much sense lol! I completely overlooked that, but yeah, I.M.P is literally making Charlie’s goal harder and harder to reach
@@erikakoti2910 This is so stupid. Murder witnesses in real life usually do not report the crime, because they are too afraid (not exactly their fault, it is a psychological problem).
At first so did I think he was just annoying but with time so did he and Lute become my favorites, sure he can still be a bit annoying with his "bro behavior" but in general so is he a good guy and seems to care about the people around him, also he is correct wit his opionion of hell, I mean what has the hotel succeded with? redemed 1 guy and showed that Angel Dust might have some good qualities? while 99,99% of the rest of the sinners we see loves being evil and see the hotel and redemtion as a joke, even Charlies army she gathers dont believe in it, they just dont want to be stopped from doing evil acts and eat angels, also the only reason the sinners has not invaded Heaven and turned it into a wasteland is that they where not able to but they would happily do it in a heartbeat if they think they could suceed, so Adam did not only the correct thing in general but his plan to cull the hell population more frequently was a logical solution to a growing problem.
I also like to point out the sad and inevitable truth of our existence We humans are inherently selfish about 90% of the time We are self-destructive If I could say something to Charlie it would be “Not EVERYONE can be redeemed” There will always be those who are sadly either a lost cause, or down right evil that redemption is impossible
the fact that there are almost 8 billion humans should be enough of a counter-argument to your point, if humans were cruel selfish creatures then we wouldn't care enough to have progeny, being selfless is the default human behavior, those who are cruel and evil are the exception, broken because they fail to be human
Yeah, some of these guys don't have the capacity for redemption, but to say that none of them should be redeemed is the problem. Some of them have committed the crimes they did out of desperation. Some sins can be very minor, and you'd say that condones their murder?
depends on what they did to get to Hell. The show loves to go on about "second chances" without realizing that every SECOND we're alive on earth is a chance to change.
@@joemama1132 Well I have one example, tho it’s based off little information but nothing in the show contradicts it. Husk became a sinner because he was a gambler and a drinker. Viv has stated this before the release of the show, there nothing to contradict it, and he still has the same habits and isn’t murdery or ____ like many other characters. I will say Viv does a terrible job at showing this, her stories are always written like a 14 year old’s watt-pad fanfic. The only other example I can think of for a character is someone from the helluva boss show, and she was only in a short too, but we don’t get much information other than her being horny and cringy. Viv really needs to learn show don’t tell and actually challenge both sides of the arguments made. Like all she needs to do is show more characters that didn’t go to hell for being murders, r____, serial killers, torturing people. She could easily make this argument with Husk but I doubt she will, and if she were to take more inspiration from Dante’s Inferno she could add in the idea that people that commit s__c_de go to hell, yes it’s very dark and brings up a lot of questions but also the whole point she wants to make. Not only that but it was also theorized that that’s how Husk died due to the wings in his design that don’t fit anything else, and for sinner designs it’s about what you hate about yourself, how you lived, and how you died. The wings wouldn’t match with anything else other than how he died (falling) though we won’t get any confirmation till the end of the show or when we see it in the show. I have my doubts, my only faith in the theory is that viv might fully go with it because a large chunk of the fandom theories it, that or she’s bad at design in world building. What do you think?🤔 I’m a bit curious, and I’m sorry if I yapped a lot there😅, it’s just a very interesting topic.
@@glitchhoffe1293 Personally, I myself and many other Christians don't think you'll go to hell for su1c1de, since those ppl are primarily so mentally ill that they can't rlly be held accountable for their actions. Also, its theorized that in biblical times, they made su1c1de a sin so ppl wouldn't go "I wanna be in Heaven now, bye lol" As for gambling, its mostly seen as a sin because people would waste all their money on that vice, neglecting important things like feeding themselves or their families. I don't think going to the casino ONCE with friends would send you there, its about moderation and discipline. I could see Husk going to hell because he prioritized his gambling over the ones he was supposed to care about, but that's never stated clearly in the show. Ur right about Vivzies super shallow, wattpad-y writing, cause exploring this would legit be interesting
@@llewelynshingler2173 he does according to the leaks, but he acts like your typical left-winged hipster Californian, surprisingly he is straight but I wouldn't be shocked if later on he turns to be on the closet or some shit like that
@@rexturbo10 your telling me the first murder victim is going to be a bad guy? Are Jeffrey Dahmer's victims going to be antagonists next since apparently being murdered makes you evil
I like your video. But you did make a few mistakes. 1. The overpopulation thing has been retconned and the actual reasons for the extermination are: the that if there are enough sinners in hell, they would rise up against heaven and, as Adam himself said for entertainment. 2. The characters in helluva boss are hell spawn A. K. A. literal demons born and raised in hell and such, they cannot be redeemed and are not a part of the extermination. Not saying your video is invalid, just want you to get your facts right. P. S. Sorry for bad English, it is not my first language.
I thin in the other series one of the characters said that hell was full of h*tlers and epsteins, so is Charlie really try to get the most deplorable parts of society sent to heaven?
@@canuquackliekaDUCK really then answer me this ok??do you really and I mean *really* think Charlie would try to get Hitler into heaven??seriously??or is it you think *liberals* are that whacked huh??
Well, yeah, but... Christianity says that even if you 100% innocent, you WILL ended up in hell if youra not christian. And also not all bad people as bad as hitler. Even knowing that hitler not as bad as people think... Charlie is still stupid and arrogand, but it doesnt mean that redemption doesnt working at all. Hazbin just need better writting
@@maplered5042 *laughs* oh you're rich that absolutely the most absurdist thing I've heard today. let me educate you Darling hello I'm Selena I'm half Jewish /Half Greek so where my soul will end up is beyond me but my patron Deity is Nyx which means likely the Elysian Fields or Tartarus but I sincerely don't know which one it will be and frankly I don't want to know ok??on the Day I stand before Hades and his queen(possibly depending time of year I die) I sincerely hope I will make it to the Elysian Fields but unless my soul has learned all the lessons I am supposed to then I will likely have a small time to rest (maybe 100 years of something like that you know maybe humanity will get it's shit together in that time???) and then sent back down to this plane again but even this I am uncertain about because oddly enough I have not been beyond the veil at least as far as I can remember but you know what I'm ok with that I'm human not meant to know everything. so you and your wonderful Ideas can go take a flying leap got it!!!!???oh yes have a nice day *gives her best Alastor grin*
5:19 what that’s so lame, it would be way cooler if he really was the ruler before Lucifer. I don’t really care that much about the plot (I’m an animation nerd first and foremost), but still
I've seen lots of these kinds of videos but none of them point this out so I'm going to there's nothing to feel bad about when the sinners are killed because they aren't bad people or even horribly evil people they aren't people at all they are over the top cartoon villains Red Skull but not Hitler that guy over there didn't rob a bank he blew it up tied a woman to the train tracks and curled his mustache
@thewitchidolsachika6682 The show is definitely inspired by religions But they wanted to make their own spin on things so they can tell a good story, problem is they didn't make any rules for what gets you into hell or heaven soo... Ya get left confused
No, what the bible is against is polygamy and lusting for the wives of other men. The definition of a harem comes from the Arabic: ḥarīm, which can mean "a sacred inviolable place", "harem" or "female members of the family" If you think of a harem by its use in anime then GTFO because you are so wrong that you might as well throw the towel to not suffer more indignity
@@engpol-1036We know how people get redeemed in that we know people can change, the aspect of redemption we don't know is how to get Heaven to accept that and allow sinners to go there which is what the first and sixth episodes are dedicated to. Even if we had no idea that this would work, it's not bad writing to have a character aim for a goal that hasn't been shown to be reachable, that's extremely basic storytelling, she's an idealistic character fighting for an idealistic goal, that's the point. We also see Sir Pentious be reborn in Heaven so we know that this is reachable regardless, this is no longer baseless because an attempt was made to achieve this goal, that's how stories work. As for redemption and the hotel not being a core focus of the show, I genuinely don't know whete this came from. The first episode is trying to get Heaven to agree, the second is getting another resident in the hotel (who becomes the first to be redeemed), the third is the least related to any of this but is still important so as to prepare for the final battle, the fourth has Angel's character development as the main focus, fifth is character development and getting into Heaven, sixth is once again all about character development and Heaven and shit, and then seven and eight are showing how the characters have grown as people as they all work together to fight against the injustice they've been fighting against the whole show. The whole show is structured around redemption, this isn't pushed aside for sex jokes, there's just also sex jokes This isn't you being inaccurate because morality is subjective, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that genocide against those of Hell is justified by default because they're bad people and order has to be kept. I personally believe killing bad people is still bad unless it prevents further harm which could be argued for to an extent in this case (although they're killing the lower level sinners rather than the ones doing 99% of the harm), but the argument of the show isn't even that it's bad to kill bad people, the show ends with a battle. The argument is that, if redemption is possible, choosing violence over redemption is a bad thing. Adam's argument isn't that he's doing this for the greater good, it's that he finds the exterminations fun and doesn’t care about redemption because he'd prefer to inflict violence, that's the idea the show is arguing against. Sera is the same way, she rejects redemption even when seeing that it's possible because she fears what will happen to the order of things, she'd rather choose violence because she views it as safer and also doesn't want to empathize too much because she's terrified of being cast down herself The overpopulation of Heaven is never brought up as a counterargument so we have no reason to believe that this would be a problem. Hell is exactly that, Hell, a trash bin to throw sinners into and let them torture each other, they're going to make it much more limited than Heaven, a paradise. Otherwise, Heaven is going to eventually overpopulate and they're going to have to start killing large amounts of people in Heaven, even without Hell. Allowing people to redeem themselves also doesn't mean that literally everyone in Hell suddenly materializes in Heaven. If you show yourself to meet the standards of Heaven, you go there, that's all redemption in this context, the same thing as on Earth except after death instead of before. If your argument is that people could become bad after going to Heaven, that applies equally to everyone else there (such as Adam). A certain austrian painter would not automatically go to Heaven, he would have to genuinely become a better person and stay that way which is unbelievably unlikely but still technically theoretically possible, but let's say he did become a better person and thus worthy of Heaven according to its own rules. Even disregarding that this is an extreme situation that doesn't apply to the VAST majority of redemptions, what's the issue with allowing him to go to Heaven? If he's worthy, what's the point? Again, not an inaccuracy, but saying it justified to condemn someone otherwise deemed "good" to living the rest of their (after)life in Hell because they spared a child's life because the kid was probably a cannibal (not necessarily a killer, just a cannibal, we see the cannibals eating the corpses from after exterminations that Adam and his girls killed so they're the ones actually doing the killing here) is a bad take imo. This is also assuming Vaggie knew the kid was a cannibal, all we know that she knew was that she was about to kill a kid in Hell, there is no further context that we know she had regarding this situation. Depending on how strict Heaven's rules are, this kid could've theoretically just been a petty thief in life, she has no reason to look at this kid and say "yeah, he probably ate and killed his parents, I'm going to murder this terrified child". I could also be misremembering this but I could’ve sworn it was said that there are no kids in Hell making this kid hellborn, which the exorcists aren't allowed to kill, that's part of the deal, so if this is true and I'm not misremembering or it wasn't retconned, she was literally following orders and was brutally punished for not being overly sadistic to the point of breaking the rules simply to kill a random child With all due respect, you agreeing with Adam saying things are black-and-white is very telling. You are actively avoiding all potential nuance as the show is directly showing you this nuance. The whole show is based around character development that you somehow didn't notice that shows bad people getting better despite existing under systems that strongly incentivize bad behavior, this nuance is shown directly to Heaven and Sera dismisses it all in favor of violence, that's what the show is trying to point out. Simplifying it to "there are good people and there are evil people, any violence against those I think are evil is fundamentally justified as they are incapable of change" is a morally-apprehensible take to me, although I don't care much in this context because this is fiction. That being said, I hope you don't view real life from this perspective (I know of a certain austrian painter who definitely did)
@@engpol-1036 I just spent an hour responding to everything you said about Adam and youtube automod deleted it. Luckily I copied it so it isn't lost, but I'll have to censor things to try to find out what got it deleted
@@engpol-1036 We know how people get redeemed in that we know people can change, the aspect of redemption we don't know is how to get Heaven to accept that and allow sinners to go there which is what the first and sixth episodes are dedicated to. Even if we had no idea that this would work, it's not bad writing to have a character aim for a goal that hasn't been shown to be reachable, that's extremely basic storytelling, she's an idealistic character fighting for an idealistic goal, that's the point. We also see Sir Pentious be reborn in Heaven so we know that this is reachable regardless, this is no longer baseless because an attempt was made to achieve this goal, that's how stories work As for redemption and the hotel not being a core focus of the show, I genuinely don't know where this came from. The first episode is trying to get Heaven to agree, the second is getting another resident in the hotel (who becomes the first to be redeemed), the third is the least related to any of this but is still important so as to prepare for the final battle which doubles as an ideological battle, the fourth has Angel's character development as the main focus, fifth is character development and getting into Heaven, sixth is once again all about character development and Heaven and shit, and then seven and eight are showing how the characters have grown as people as they all work together to fight against the injustice they've been fighting against the whole show. The whole show is structured around redemption, this isn't pushed aside for s3x jokes, there's just also s3x jokes This isn't you being inaccurate because morality is subjective, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that g3nocide against those of Hell is justified by default because they're bad people and order has to be kept. I personally believe killing bad people is still bad unless it prevents further harm which could be argued for to an extent in this case (although they're killing the lower level sinners rather than the ones doing 99% of the harm), but the argument of the show isn't even that it's bad to kill bad people, the show ends with a battle. The argument is that, if redemption is possible, choosing violence over redemption is a bad thing. Adam's argument isn't that he's doing this for the greater good, it's that he finds the exterminations fun and doesn’t care about redemption because he'd prefer to inflict violence, that's the idea the show is arguing against. Sera is the same way, she rejects redemption even when seeing that it's possible because she fears what will happen to the order of things, she'd rather choose violence because she views it as safer and also doesn't want to empathize too much because she's terrified of being cast down herself, she's on the side of the status quo by default and the status quo is eternal damnation The overpopulation of Heaven is never brought up as a counterargument so we have no reason to believe that this would be a problem. Hell is exactly that, Hell, a trash bin to throw sinners into and let them torture each other, they're going to make it much more limited than Heaven, a paradise. Otherwise, Heaven is going to eventually overpopulate and they're going to have to start killing large amounts of people in Heaven even without Hell's population. Allowing people to redeem themselves also doesn't mean that literally everyone in Hell suddenly materializes in Heaven. If you show yourself to meet the standards of Heaven, you go there, that's all redemption is in this context, the same thing as on Earth except after death instead of before. If your argument is that people could become bad after going to Heaven, that applies equally to everyone else there (such as Adam). A certain austrian painter would not automatically go to Heaven, he would have to genuinely become a better person and stay that way which is unbelievably unlikely but still technically theoretically possible, but let's say he did become a better person and thus worthy of Heaven according to its own rules. Even disregarding that this is an extreme situation that doesn't apply to the VAST majority of redemptions (most people realistically were a normal level of bad rather than the perpetrators of g3nocides liie said painter or Adam), what's the issue with allowing him to go to Heaven? If he's worthy, what's the point in denying anyone's redemption purely to have an excuse to keep him out? How does the benefit outweigh the harm here? Again, not an inaccuracy, but saying it justified to condemn someone otherwise deemed "good" to living the rest of their (after)life in a place meant to torture you because they spared a child's life because the kid was probably a cannibal (not necessarily a killer, just a cannibal, we see the cannibals eating the corpses from after exterminations that Adam and his girls killed so they're the ones actually doing the killing here) is a bad take imo. This is also assuming Vaggie knew the kid was a cannibal, all we know that she knew was that she was about to kill a kid in Hell, there is no further context that we know she had regarding this situation. Depending on how strict Heaven's rules are, this kid could've theoretically just been a thief or something in life, she has no reason to look at this kid and say "yeah, he probably ate and killed his parents, I'm going to murder this terrified child with glee because of this assumption". I could also be misremembering this but I could’ve sworn it was said that there are no kids in Hell making this kid hellborn, which the exorcists aren't allowed to kill, that's part of the deal, so if this is true and I'm not misremembering or it wasn't retconned, she was literally following orders and was brutally punished for not being overly sadistic to the point of breaking the rules simply to kill a random child With all due respect, you agreeing with Adam saying things are black-and-white is very telling. You are actively avoiding all potential nuance as the show is directly showing you this nuance. The whole show is based around character development that you somehow didn't notice that shows bad people getting better despite existing under systems that strongly incentivize bad behavior, this nuance is shown directly to Heaven and Sera dismisses it all in favor of violence, that's what the show is trying to point out. Simplifying it to "there are good people and there are evil people, any violence against those I think are evil is fundamentally justified as they are incapable of change" is a morally-apprehensible take to me that only reinforces the cycle of violence, although I don't care much in this context because this is fiction. That being said, I hope you don't view real life from this perspective (I know of a certain austrian painter who definitely did)
Hazbin hotel sinners aren't demons in the same way doom demons are tho. Demons in doom don't have personalities, they are just evil creatures that are fun to fight. Sinners in hazbin hotel are people, bad people but still people, therefore commiting genocide against them is wrong. Also the angels commit the genocide before schedule because one angel got killed, i think that's the show making clear that the genocides have nothing to do with helping control the population, they are a demonstration of power. People like Adam because he is a fun villain, not because genocide is good :/
@WillieManga she should have killed it because: A. It is a cannibal B. How do you know is a child? C. Look at any news about children commiting evil deeds and not even you would spare two seconds on wanting to kill those monsters
@@WillieManga that kid didnt rlly make sense. In the shows cannon, arent sinners unable to have children? Where did the kid come from? WHY was he sent to Hell? In Christianity, kids go to Heaven by default upon death, since any action they do is based on innocent ignorance. Even kid killers usually end up that way because of trauma from an adult. They just used that kid as a tool to make vaggie seem sympathetic
@@ethancox9737 The kid's in hell my guy. We see that many demons don't strictly have to look the age they were when they died. And while the show is trying to laud the mystery of what qualifies as sin or not, we can really only work from our understanding. If the one under threat was human, or angel, that would probably change it. But this is a sinner. Regardless of if the marks are of a cannibal or anything else, they're there for an in universe reason.
Essay Defense for Hazbin Hotel even though the writing isn't its strong-suit: During the whole Adam section, you just looked at a bunch of characters and said "they shouldn't be in heaven because they are evil". Yes, they are. I'm willing to bet they aren't currently worthy of being redeemed. But what if they change? The concept of purgatory is basically what they are putting as Hell. Yes, they aren't worthy at all, they are bad people, but forgetting they are people is a bad concept to have. Charlie keeps saying "give them the chance to redeem themselves" because they have human emotions and humans are programmed with a sense of empathy, good and evil, yet they act like they are going to be one state of evil for an eternity. Humans can change DRASTICALLY, so much so, you can forget they are the same person. Ignoring the fact that you would be brain dead and mentally unstable from being immortal after a while since the show doesn't address that, they have all the time in the world to reflect and contemplate. Hell hazbin (you clap now) reinforcing the sin and society will laugh at you for trying to be good. Sinners will keep sinning because it's pointless, no more take backs, trying will grant you nothing and you will make no difference in society. Fall back in line, give into the indoctrination of Hell, as chaos is the order Hell maintains. Vending machines full of hard drugs, XXX shops as common as fast food chains. Every sinner that ever existed had all amassed together to conceive a society, and they made California. Charlie is making steps in the right direction, give them a chance, even if they don't deserve a chance, maybe they are like that because they never even got one. Charlie's desire is to just turn Hell into one big therapy and rehabilitation center, it's objectively not a bad system, but since heaven won't accept the idea of anything from that godless hellhole being in heaven, or that being even being possible, why would they make or support a system that allows a sinner from Hell into heaven? Heaven's genocide is rooted in discrimination and their ideas of them deserving eternal flame or never changing. I get it, it's damn near impossible to find an alright person in Hell, if there ever was one, why wouldn't they be in heaven? I would tell you, but I suddenly got hit with deep self awareness after the autism wore off and I realized this is a youtube comment and I spent way too long writing this essay. You gotta believe me when I say I'm not offended or angry and this isn't a fandom super rant, I just like expressing opinions on things. Hazbin Hotel isn't even in my top 10s you gotta believe me!
Prescisly thats exactly what I was thinking I would like to also add that Adam is inherilty evil not because he is rude or anything like that the reason imo is that he wants and likes to kill it is not a duty for him its a pleasure and sure someone might say that "he is killing the bad guys so who cares" but he isnt killing only bad people but also those who try to be better like the crew from hazbin Adam by trying to stop them from becoming better people shows that he isnt for the people in hell to become better people and potentially go to heaven but he just wants and likes to kill them because they are demons and he only sees the world in black and white that narrow minded view doesnt help bad people turn good but upkeeps the status quo perhaps in the real world it is not advisiable to forgive everyone but in hell? when everyone is already dead and cant to any harm to noone? why not give those people a chance and Adam by refusing to allow change will remain as the bad guy
What if Hitler tries to "change"? Saying "sorry" to his millions of victims doesn't change what he did. Every second we're alive on earth is a chance to change, why is it Heavens fault that they decided to procrastinate?
@@Thunderblock7889 Yes Overpopulation is a problem. Genocide is not the answer and if Adam were a good guy he would hear out Charlie's proposed solution and say something along the lines of "I don't think we can let sinner's into heaven." Not break out ignore her, then break out into song and belittle her for trying. If Adam were a good person he'd act more like Sera did in the trial. Clearly you haven't watched the show.
@@oddsmile1234 Imagine if you're in a serious business to solve a serious problem, and your first impression is them showing their illustrations using fucking crayons. If you think that's stupid, congratulations you understand that Charlie is a freaking idiot, and why Adam doesn't take her seriously. And when it comes to genocide, look I understand it's a difficult subject, however if the group of people only do is harm other people and provide NOTHING else? Then it's warranted. Sure maybe they are some sinners that are trying to be good, or perhaps some like you mention, someone was forced to eat others, however the show itself doesn't mention that fact, nor does a good job defending the sinners.
@@oddsmile1234 Counterpoint: Orcs. 9 times out of ten, Orcs in fictional media are either too aggressive to ever be reasoned with or are just downright *evil.* Is killing them all wrong regardless because "Genocide is not the answer"? You could say "well the Orcs can't help being the way they are", A. that doesn't change the fact that they need to be *stopped,* and B. that Freudian excuse does not hold up for the literal human garbage that is Hell's civilian population. Vivziepop's Hell isn't Christian Hell. You don't go there by rejecting God. You go there by being the biggest Piece of Shit you can be. Literally every Sinner in Hell did at least one thing bad enough to warrant being sent down there, and of the course of the 10,000+ years of Hell's existence, only *two* have shown anything resembling a willingness to change for the better. By contrast, assuming that reincarnation, Purgatory, or some other third option does not exist, everyone who does *not* go to Hell instead goes to Heaven by default. Since Jesus Christ almost certainly never gave His life on the cross in this series of events, that means it is very possible for human beings to make it into Heaven on their own. Take Adam, for instance. Flawed and capricious he may be, yet whatever objective sorting system that determines one's destination after death decided that Adam was good enough for Heaven. If someone like *him* could get in, then what excuse does the rest of mankind have for not being able to do so? Being corrupted by the forbidden fruit? Again, the presence of human souls in Heaven proves that humans do not suffer from a lack of agency as a result of said corruption. it is very possible for humans to make it to Heaven in Vivzie's world, the Sinners just chose not to. Hell is forever, and that is perfectly fine.
Personally, If an omnipresent being deliberately chose someone to reside in a realm of paradise for their actions and lifestyle: It would be literally impossible to argue that they're worse than someone that was chosen to live in a realm of agony... But then again, the show was made by a spiteful lesbian that made a show about 'nuanced sinners', so obviously she'd make a strawman.
I disagree with your assessment that Adam is in the right. A lot of this can be chalked up to the show's shaky writing, but even with that, Adam is not a good person. In the same song you reference Adam's worldview, he explicitly says extermination is entertainment. He slaughters Sinners because it's fun; the fact they were horrible people in life is a convenient justification. This invites the question: is genocide bad because you disagree with the act itself or are you okay with it if the people deserve it? If the answer is the former, your argument is shot. If it's the latter, who are the Angels to pass that judgment when they don't even know what gets someone into Heaven? By that same logic, what ultimately condemns a person to Hell? Again, you can look to the show's writing for this, but it's apparent that Heaven is not a fair system. If they have to hide the Exterminations from their souls, then even they know the act is horrifying to them. People who think they're doing something or unacceptable typically don't try to hide it. The Elders of Heaven are explicitly doing this for control, not altruisim. Also, Charlie is helping Sinners who want to be redeemed. Who want to put in the effort. Those who don't want to be helped aren't being forced into the hotel. They can keep being themselves and rot for eternity.
What if the sinner who wanted to be redeemed was a murder, abuser, and rapist? Would it be right to their victims to allow them the chance into Heaven?
The show is made so the angels are in the wrong. There is no reason why the angels don't know how one gets to heaven or hell since they built it, they have to know bc they created the rules
Wrong. Charlie's mindset is that everybody can be redeemed. That is factually wrong. There are some things you can't come back from. Also, how would a victim react if the person that k1lled or r4ped them was now happy in heaven? Ever thought about that? In real life you'd want someone like that to rot in prison for life for what they did to somebody. So why is it different for characters like Alastor? I get it, he's charismatic, but he's a murdering maniac. Adam too can be seen as a murdering maniac but he's killing those who deserve it after doing unspeakable evil in life (and death as well). Adam is on the right side on this. Not to mention the fact that we have a bunch of sinners as protagonists, Alastor most of all. Nothing will ever convince me he deserves redemption, no matter how much the fandom want to empathize with him.
@@camerondalton1495I mean, considering heaven and hell in HH setting is a reflection of the prison system in some way, I think it is dubious to think that keeping em locked in instead of rehabilitating em is pretty fuck up. Murderers, rapists, etc. should have a second chance is what I am saying.
Ironwood and John walker were sympathetic, just following orders, and just trying to do what they thought was right. Adam was just an entitled asshole. Plain and simple. 😑
@Green-Hybrid3017 is an angel fighting demons, why wouldnt we defend him? And besides demons are inferior to creation itself, a twisted corrupt parody that would never be the real deal
@@rexturbo10 you do know that we’re part of the problem right. Most people nowadays got to hell. Just because your an angel from heaven doesn’t automatically mean that you’re good. One example is sentinel prime from transformers one. I’m happy that Adam is gone. Rest in piss bozo, you will not be missed. 😑
How is someone who actively enjoys indiscriminate Genocide on a yearly basis a strawman? like at some point you just gotta accept a character is blatantly evil mate and not everything is morally complex.
I mean if you go to heaven and you have a happy life there. will you be happy to see the person that sent you there come by and visit and act like they didn't murder you. The reason why I bring this up is because I'm not trying to guilt trip is just something to bring up I mean for crying out loud I think HH could have really expanded on something like that showing how complicated the situation is. I mean I'm not trying to say Adam is a good person or not because it was clearly thrown out the window the way they portray him I mean for crying out loud this could have been an interesting series where there was no villains except people at each other's throats trying to reach a simple solution without considering what the other side thinks. I don't want to get political but I am a Mexican-American and yes I do agree that America needs to upgrade their border policy. I do get the arguments about people wanting to get a much better life here because America offers a lot of opportunities, but crossing the border illegally isn't the way to start. some people try to make me sound bad by saying "well how the heck are they supposed to know are you telling them that all they're doing for nothing that their dreams are not meant to happen" and the answer I have for that is well if there's a illegal way to immigrate shouldn't there be a legal way to immigrate I mean there's evidence of cartel sending human trafficking victims to America so they can further expand their business there to get more money. not to mention my cousin needed to move here into America after a bunch of gangs forced him to transport drugs while keeping his family hostage. And if we apply the same thinking like the main character of HH does about everybody deserving a second chance how do you think people like my cousin is going to feel if they found out that the people that have been holding his family members hostage and forcing him to transport drugs are you going to be living in the same country as him is it going to make him feel?
It depends on what show you're talking about and what the morality in-universe is. Tell me, is Genocide when someone feels like it such a bad thing that makes someone a villain in your eyes? Then why are Angel Dust and Cherry Bomb not villains when they do the same? A strawman is how you make someone antagonistic by taking away all the arguments, blacks, whites and greys taking away everything until all it's left is a flanderization of the same person with feeble arguments easier to break. They made Adam a bad guy for killing killers who feel no remorse. That's bad writing.
It’s because the writers stripped the nuances of why someone in Adam’s place would actually kill demons in the first place. Instead of having a nuanced reason for why he kills demons they just say: “i kill demons because it’s fun for me to do so and that’s my only reason why”. Note: before anyone mentions Sera, the yearly exterminations were Adam’s idea
@EngPol Let's see. Your first back up is a piece of dialogue, which while it has been a while since I played that section in ME2, but as far as I remember there's another force at play in the situation you just conveniently *cherry picked* out of the situation (get used to those words). Secondly, the dialogue references a choice that is misrepresented here, ok?? In ME1 you are given a choice A) Paragon: Spare the Rachni queen or B) Renegade: Kill the queen. If you *actually* knew the lore, you would know the Rachni were not "let loose" on the universe by anyone. Humans opened a new relay and the Rachni came through again. Been a while since I played that, hmmm, maybe I need to go back and play again. Sounds like a good idea to me *grins* . ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I will admit I have not seen all of RWBY, but I did get far enough to know Ironwood's plan has been tried in another show and that was PR: LSR they wanted to replace the rangers with "Cyborgs" which were actually robots but that's a quibble which is neither here nor there. Penny is the one out of all of Droids, or whatever they were supposed to be, that actually had a soul, so she moved beyond being a simple machine and, to clarify simple machine, means that even with a predictive VI, they still must do what they are programmed to do. Penny is subject to this to an extent, but not the same as his other models and, if I must guess, she was a bit like Data and Lore. She had free will but, "father" speaks the correct phrase and she will execute a preprogrammed set of directives, but then again both Data 1.0 and Lore were subject to that as well, but his plan would work and likely did work in the short term. In TNG "The Booby Trap" Geordi said, "Forget the numbers." The computer can't account for the human factor, the desire to survive. For all the talk about still needing humans, I wonder how far Ironwood would push it if he could and no matter how you frame it, he's nowhere near a victim. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ You're Defending *John walker!!!???*, the US Agent? It literally says in the wiki about him, he's a hardline Christian nationalist who also says that he's softened over time, but hey in a world where MAGA exists the character, from 1945 Brooklyn can't possibly be the good guy anymore. The UDA Agent was never a true good guy, but he wasn't a villain either. He is what the modern government would want out of Captain America, a good solider who puts country before everything else. While that's a good solider that's *not* a good person. Here's something from his wiki for you. Though Walker is a hardline Christian, militant, right-wing conservative believing in country before anything else. He has softened over the years and even has become disillusioned with his own government. Literally the best thing in there is his becoming disillusioned with his government. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Adam and his sycophant, Lute literally drip Pride, and then there's Wrath and let's not forget Adam's favorite *Lust*. So you *think* you have all the info?? I've watched it like 10 times and I still don't feel like I know everything about everyone. You think your two scenarios are literally the only ones??? I would say I'm gonna forgive your crack about the leader of the third Reich and the crack at Jewish people's expense as well. Let's look at this from two perspectives, ok?? The first, do you think Viv is *that dumb!!!* That she would try to make a case for him *ever!!!!!???* Secondly, the sheer variety of characters there means someone is *highly likely* to know who he is ok?? Charlie can manipulate Vaggie only so far which is why someone like him is never gonna show up. There are people who are nowhere near the level of Hitler or Epstein and I can assure you they'd end up there too. It's not just reserved for the Hitlers and Epstein's of the world. What we have seen, and I do emphasize what we have seen, of Heaven doesn't impress me. It reminds me of the Tops in Yugi oh 5Ds. Sera is a Seraphim. Currently the highest ranking angel there is, but she still allows it out of fear, the same fear that drove *ADAM* to do the "Fuck you I do what I want" bit at the end his song,. If, and I do mean if, you *actually* watch the show and I mean watched it, not just being there to make *this video*, but actually watched it, then much of what you are even talking about would've been answered. All else being said I must really thank you because at 12:01 you have completely defeated all your own arguments. For example, Alastor has never shown a desire for redemption, but then why would he be there??? Why "Fulfill Charlie's bizarre requests"??? Hmmm, I'll let you think on that. On the other hand, we can see over eight episodes Angel and Sir Pentious change, and in this case, it's a change in them whether they wanted to or not, but for it to happen they have to have wanted it on some level. To date, we have no idea how these people get reborn into the Pride ring, especially into the forms we see them in. Some you can theorize about, like Alastor. Well, only when he taps his power. Do you actually truly see changes and it doesn't have to be his full power either. Others are harder. Angel, I couldn't begin to theorize about him. Sir Pentious, I definitely can't tell you. Seriously ???? Someone and as a TH-camr to boot uses the word "Retarded"??? Wow. Just wow. If you are gonna use a scene, use the full set of scenes Charlie and Emily: "If angels can do whatever, and remain in the sky, the rules are shades of gray. When you don't do as you say. When you make the wretched suffer just to kill them again." I do warn you right now, the incoming administration is about free speech for themselves, but not for us. Meaning you stay on their good side, they will protect your "free speech". By the way we must be watching a different show *sex jokes!!!!???* You seem to think that Charlie is out to redeem everyone. Guess what, and here's the kicker. Alastor was asked why he couldn't *make* people stay there. It was stated explicitly that they want people to *want* to stay there. A weird thing called free will, but thanks for just outing yourself as to who you voted for. It explains a lot. Are the angels in the wrong???? A couple of warhawks gleefully killing off human souls. Uh, *FUCK YES!!!!*, so how do you choose who is to be sacrificed huh?? Uh do you know anything about Marvel comics? Wait. Never mind I think I stopped caring when I heard you use the R word.
John Walker was never depicted in the show as a right-wing christian, that's why I only uses Wiki's as a reference but not fully trust it, since most wiki's they can lie and make BS, look up most wiki's containing "fextralife" and you'll understand why people hate them. I also highly recommend for your own sake to take some time off internet politics, or the internet in general, I can see how emotional you are in my comment sections, to the point where people can't tell on, what are you trying to say.
@@engpol-1036 my dear the fact that a MCU *series* is not comic faithful is not surprising because him being what he was in the comics would be to be most polite controversial and in the current atmosphere it would resonate with the wrong crowd but do yourself a favor ok??keep coitizing the right things because if not the new administration will come to find you and please don't believe me that's how he got elected now no need to worry about me returning so I don't need a response.
Your entire argument is based on the presumption that not only do „sinners“ not deserve any human rights, but also that hurting „sinners“ is an inherently good act. Not only is it at the very least questionable whether „sinners“ in this show really are just rapists and murderers, as I doubt that those two populations would be enough to fill up the entirety of hell or be the only ones ending up here, it is also asinine to believe that hurting people just because they once did something terrible in the past is inherintly good.
Well first we need to understand what it takes for someone to hell and what gets someone to heaven in this universe. Is it easy to get into hell or hard? Unfortunately no one knows, somehow, not even the seraphim. Would it be fair if you went to go to heaven after being killed only for the people who killed you to be let into heaven after knowing there was an afterlife and redeeming themselves? It would be better if redemption allowed sinners to be reincarnated and try again instead of immediately going to heaven. If people knew for sure there was an afterlife than people would act more kindly to each other to be let into the good place. People who are truly good would be the ones to deserve being winners since they were kind without reward or knowing there would be one.
@@htwhtw-wy5vz Why does it matter if someone became good because of a certain incentive or not? If the end result is the same (that person being able to be deemed worthy of being in Heaven), why does the reasoning for becoming better matter? They've still become better
@@crypt5129If the reasoning behind someone becoming 'better' does matter because it speaks to the kind of person they actually are. If someone behaves well only if there is a carrot dangling in front of them aka the promise of heaven, then it raises the question if they are genuinely being good or just ACTING good out of their own self-interest. None of the sinners try to change in hell or be good people and instead indulge in their vices, do drugs and etc. If they hear that someone got redeemed and went to heaven, I bet a whole lot of them would start acting differently compared to when they thought, there was no reward. Would you trust a person who doesn't hurt other people just because of the system and them fearing punishment or the person who is genuinely kind? I would be less inclined to argue if it wasn't for the fact we still do not have any information on how to get into heaven in this universe.
@htwhtw-wy5vz People act good because of certain incentives anyways (to look good, to feel like a good person, to make the other person feel like they owe them, to avoid previous guilt, etc etc), people don't become the way they are with no influences from the external or internal world. If the end result is a good person, why does it matter if they became good to go to Heaven? If they're just acting like they're good and plan to drop the act once they're in Heaven, then they're not good, but if they're acting good and stay like that, what is the functional difference between that and just being good? They engage in their vices in Hell because they're living torturous lives in literally hellish conditions with their vices advertised everywhere around them and they've been told there's no way out, I can't say I really blame them for not making the effort to try to get better on their own, it's literally Hell
@@crypt5129 I understand where your trying to come from, but it's simply oversimplifying human behaviors. Acting good and being good are not the same thing. Intent matters because it defines the difference between genuine change and superficial performance. If someone is doing something good just to score a ticket to Heaven, that's not them being good, they are just being opportunistic. Look, I can agree that hell, even in this universe is an awful place. It still doesn't excuse indulging in their worst possible vices. There are many people who go through hard times without giving up on becoming better. Is hell brutal? Definitely. But can this universe's hell change for the better if the people in it changed compared to the original one where it was just punishment. Yes, none of them knew about redemption or hope to get out which can make people fall into hopelessness, but not knowing doesn't let them completely off the hook. How you act in those kinds of times tells a lot of your character. People suffer through poverty, abuse or addiction but some still manage to find a way out and strive to become better even when there isn't an obvious reward to do so. If the people of this universe have just given up entirely, if they have just let the place turn them into their absolute worse selves without even TRYING to do anything to escape, well... Hazbin Hotel is an... alright show, but it is rushed, and we don't have all the details about the universe. Personally, I enjoyed "The Good Place".
![The Sympathetic Strawman - How Marvel Accidentally Created One of the Best MCU Characters [reupload]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SalgNl0Nnvs/mqdefault.jpg)
Made it so all the comments in this video go from top to newest, hopefully your comments won't disappear.
Just for reference, team rwby helps the woman who keeps stealing Ironwoods supplies that he needs to finish repairing a wall to keep Grimm out, and the communication tower, then they and the woman who constantly robs him berate him for not being finished with repairs
Thank you, didn't want the video to be longer then it needed to be.
Ah, double standard at its finest.
Adam is an antagonist but not a villain people seem to have a problem with separating the two
The characters in helluva boss are hellborn they can’t be redeemed because they were born there
I've always found it strange how shallow the conflict between heaven and hell is. The show try to make you side with the sinners by making Adam an idiotic douch character, but...
He still killing BAD people.
Agreed. They should have went a bit farther to explain everyone’s sins.
arent they at hell already who gives a shit
hell can never stand up to heaven we all saw how defensless everyone was against adam alone
lucifer is canonically stronger than all of the 7 rings of hell combined
hell cant pose a threat to heaven
2nd a rehabilitation program (charlies idea) is much much better than eliminating "bad people" they are already in hell who gives a shit
like for example if u sinned and went to hell does that mean u should be killed ?
@@Purpleguy04 they simply don't believe in idea of redemption
@@5P_OFFICIAL i am talking about people who are defending mass slaughter not about the angels in the show
@@Purpleguy04 well, its mass slaughter of sinners, not of normal people
Other thought on the Ambiguous Cannibal Kid: Was he a Kid? Or was he disguised as one?
Or was he just short
Or actually a child, but really evil child!?
Adam is only a villain to the main character (antagonist). Like how in a villain story where the villain is the main character the antagonist would be the hero, even though the hero isn’t a bad person its just they are the antagonist to the main character. Adam maybe have a horrible personality but he not a villain. Adam just goes against the main character whole goal. (Sorry for any grammar mistakes)
nah, he was a villain, the problem is that he wasn't the villain of the series
The thing about Adam is I don't like how he's written
Ik he's an antagonist n all so it makes sense that he'd be spoiled and obnoxious as his flaws but c'mon, this is heaven and I feel like it's lazy writing, jus making the antagonist an unreasonable asshole just cuz you want the audience to know "yo, this guy sucks"
Ig I jus wished they toned it down
Maybe if he was more manipulative, maybe
I think I found the words
The show's characterization is a lil bad
I blame British comic book writers like Alan Moore and Garth Ennis for their cynical and nihilistic portrayals of Christianity. Notable examples of this are "Preacher" and "Constantine," which reflect their views on religion. Since these works gained popularity in the 90s, it’s unsurprising that others sought to emulate their success to get rich, which caused the idea of heaven and the angels to be as bad or worse as hell and its inhabitants to become a staple in pop culture.
@@rexturbo10 You're spitting facts.👍
@abiliv-lf9tz congrats you may have found the words but whether you're right or wrong doesn't make the angels on the side of the angels
@selena8472 doesnt make the angels on the side of the angels? What does that even mean?
It's funny how many people really like Adam despite them trying to make him seem so unlikeable. Charlie calls sinners innocent souls but i highly doubt that most didn't commit heinous shit in life
I’ve watched both shows, yeah, she’s probably insecure or hurt, why? Well it isn’t wrong being insecure but like, she makes all the villains one sided, Ozmodeus from HB with Fizzaroli (the embodiment of Lust and a Imp Jester who’s a celebrity) are set up in episode seven to seem live villains who would rival even the strongest character so far, and the main character both mentally and physically, but no, instead they just threw it away, he really seemed like a unique villain along with Season 1 Striker, but they threw it all away, and the villains are all assholes who are one sided say cuss words and threatened the “fun guys” of the shows
I mean, he is the Dick Master. The first Dick, all humanity came from his nuts. The show tries to paint it like misogyny but its a literal fact, he is the father of mankind and sinners are his worthless children, waking stains of his legacy on Earth. So when he exterminates sinners it is a deeply personal affair, one he takes a personal, direct hand in. Its easy to play off his joking behavior as juvenile because lets face it it is but that's not all it is. Sinners aren't just a legacy of failures in gods light but also servants of Lilith who the series props up as hells defacto leader and source of inspiration over Lucifer, and Ironically while the series does this they also show her chilling in heaven Beach side as her people are being slaughtered due to a secreted alliance in Heaven she isn't just aware of but to some degree aids. Adam is both an unwitting pawn and an unsung Hero of Heaven as Sera keeps their exploits hidden, something Adam is shown to be uncomfortable with, we see multiple times he is proud of his work and dislikes Heaven keeps it on the down low.
At the end of the day he fought for what he believed in with true, pure convictions. He fought monsters and was incapable as seeing them as anything but monsters even in his final moments because in all of history not a single sinner redeemed themselves. The sad irony being the first Sinner to do so only happened to do so due to Adams direct involvement and intervention. He died ignorant that he had a direct hand in redeeming the first sinner ever. Do I think vivziepop thought of any of that when making the show? Hell no, but that's part of Adams charm, he was ironically the most HUMAN of the cast in all the best and worst ways and on some level most viewers resonate with that.
@@avery2041 When exactly did Charlie say that sinners are innocent? Point out the exact episode and scene.
There's a difference between saying that a person can be redeemed and that they did nothing wrong. Only an idiot doesn't know.
@@LeonReal77 While i don't know if Charlie directly said that, that is how shes portraying them to the angels. That's why the line comes up at all in reference to the sinners.
It may have been the angel girl actually. I know she said something along the lines of "those poor innocent souls!" Charlie seems implied that she thinks ALL of them are simply uwu innocent beans
The "sinners are innocent" concept makes zero sense. If they are innocent, then they wouldnt need to be rehabilitated bc they did nothing that warrentd needed to be rehabilitated in the first place
also, redemptions logically can only coexist with exterminations, because there obviously won't be enough redemptions per year to counter the hell's ever increasing population, so you still need someone to clean it up for you.
I swear, this show seems to have little to no self awareness when it comes to how sinners are portrayed. They got sent to Hell because they did terrible things when they were alive. We also see that, while in Hell, these sinners continue to commit the same vile acts that got them sent there in the first place. Despite this, the show wants us to think that they deserve a shot at redemption when not only are they objectively terrible but they also are shown to not even be interested in redeeming themselves. Looking back on it, it definitely does seem that the only reason Adam was written to have an insufferable personality was because that was the ONLY way to get us to hate him.
Honestly the reason this video is true is simply because the writers are Insanely lazy
They wanted le epic nuance what if heaven is evil stuff
But they also wanted to make the show about only sex jokes and random violence
It would be cool to explore adams motives for killing sinners other than the weak "prevent them from gaining power" stuff that the show presents
Like what if Adam viewed himself as an intentional mercy killer? That could be cool :]
Idk this show is really bad at having any nuance in any topic it tries to talk about
Heaven is not evil, i will never get that idea and i don't know where that comes from, when Heaven does not even know about the extermination and only the higher ups know (that is calling venezuela Evil because of the president)actually thats Sera reason, Adam reasons is because he founds it fun.
By the way, not even in the context of him giving her a merciful death, because ignoring the senselessness that would be, if you die in hell as a sinner, your vital energy returns to hell as Eyes, and you are permanently in a nothing where you see yourself.
@Sonic2024freedomera its so obvious that heaven basically has zero worldbuilding compared to hell
Cuz like hell has all these rings and species and the way you look reflects your sins and life and the way you died and theres diffirent districts and towns and you can become an overlord and do soul contracts.. And heaven... Is just a good place
Idk its just so boring to me
The show feels like it consistently chooses the easiest option and its really annoying
@@explodingpartyhats5438
In fact, heaven has the same mechanic of "you become what you were in life" and all that will be done in season 2 or with the advancement of the series (because apparently people say that Hazbin has no world building, but also they say that everything should not be released in season 1...what)
You said what I've wanted too 10x better✨
@@Sonic2024freedomera British comic books, that is where the idea came of Heaven being evil, just read any comic book written by a British guy, and any mention of religion and you will see how nihilistic is
I wanna know what motivated Charlie to start trying to redeem sinners. Who’d she meet? What’d she see? What’d she hear? I like the one idea someone had where she met Judas and he told her about Jesus’ teachings.
Too bad Jesus doesn’t exist in this show as Vivzie has said in a stream before that she doesn’t want to put him in it, she doesn’t explain why but back in her tumblr days I used to follow her back then and she clearly has an inner grudge against the KJV Bible because she doesn’t see it as fair but again that her belief so if her logic and writing in the show seems amateurish and edgy well that’s because the art reflects the creator
He’s right about sinners during Hell Is Forever
Why would Charlie even wanna help these guys? When all they do is treat her like $hit and make fun of her every way posssible. Not to mention they’re in hell for a reason, they did many crimes like killing, stealing, possibly SA and are even preds. Not to mention they’re oppressive and dictative like Vox. Sometimes people can’t change.
Adam was the true hero, not Charlie
Charlie doesn't want respect (not the kind of respect one would have in hell, kind of fear or fame) nor does she want money (she's the princess of hell, she already has money for her entire eternal life)the reason why she wants to redeem them is because she loves them...why?i want to know that exact same reason.
@ I guess it’ll never be explain. Typical writing
@@fnfethusiast6508 then you say "for the pureness of her heart"
@@Sonic2024freedomera
“Innocence doesn’t get you far” - MX, Mario’s Madness
@@fnfethusiast6508
It is not innocence, because she is not innocent, too optimistic and kind? Yes
Since u brought up roshack, i wanted to mention that he was the only real good guy of the movie. All the other Watchmen were either sexual criminals or literally compliant with murdering millions of innocent ppl. Yet roshack is supposed to be in the wrong bc hes fine with killing evil ppl. Like W H A T
Okay so lets talk about Spawn, cuz hes honestly a good example of a sinner wanting redemption.
Before becoming a sinner, Spawn in his life was a government assassin that took peoples lives. When not killing people, he actually has a loving wife, but unfortunately unable to procreate. Now after he was killed due to a conspiracy, he ended up in hell and now is under threat of being forced into an unholy army. Sometime later he escapes to the human world to hideaway from others. Unfortunately, he cant go home to his wife, due to her remarrying and having a kid, not to mention he's physically disfigured so she wouldnt even recognize
That right there gives you a more morally grey character. He was an assassin for the government tasked with killing whomever, but he also was a loving husband. Now funny enough, Spawn is not even remotely portrayed as a hero nor a villain. For the majoritive, he has less friends than Batman and is essentially a homeless man with superpowers, however he does use them to kill bad people while back on earth.
The problem with Hazbin and Helluva is, EVERYONES an antihero despite their issues. And when everyones the antihero, there is no conflict. Thus no story.
If only later Spawn comics didn't utterly demolish that dynamic...
Charlie is a hero, Blitz is a villain but he is a lesser evil one, he has done nothing heroic more than saving his boyfriend, Moxxie is a anti villain but he also has done nothing heroic either, i can honestly go with the list.
@@Sonic2024freedomera Why is Charlie a hero?
@@christopherbravo1813 Why would she be a villain? She is not trying to dominate the world, or she is a cruel murderer, or she was planning to start a war against heaven (in fact the war thing was started by Adam, Charlie wanted to avoid the conflict) Charlie just wants her to be stop the killings against the people she loves, and it occurred to her to try to make them better.
@@Sonic2024freedomera There are more than three types of villains.
Furthermore, what Adam was trying to do was his job. It was Charlie who escalated it into a war-likely dooming all of Hell as Heaven will undoubtedly refuse to take this lying down.
Also, "people she loves"? That definition extends to, at most, seven or eight people. She has not demonstrated a personal connection with the cruel murderers, tyrants, warmongers, or other miscreants that make up 99.9% of Hell's population. So I say again: Why is Charlie a hero?
Honestly I think a big problem was caused by vivs “hesitation” to make anything other then what we already frown upon to be sinful most likely in fear of the backlash from Christian and alike faith audiences I feel like it would have greatly benefited the show if things like being gay were sinful as for the show to showcase how hell can be an extreme or unjust punishment
Yeah but He’ll is full of Gay Demons so…
Yeah. She shouldn't care about the backlash from religious people. Some of them are just crazy (coming from a religious person). Like....we have stuff like Helltaker for crying out loud, why would hazbin and helluva boss be any different? (Besides helltaker being a harem..thing. It's still Hell). And I think she said being gay doesn't send you to hell because the amount of lgbt people in her fandom and they are also crazy.
All of the main characters in both shows are in the rainbow specter, so I got mixed signals here, either Vivz is saying that LGBT is a hell thing or that there are more Gay people in hell? Honestly, the last type of show one should add that type of inclusion should be one based around hell
@@rexturbo10 Not all of them but definitely the majority
Its also importat to remember Adam is not chacterized very well in the show. He is made out to be a one-dimensionally evil strawman for who killing is fun, JUST so the show can have a villain from Heaven that the "good" demons can fight. If your chatacter has to kill a puppy on screen every couple minutes just to remind people how evil they are, they're not evil. Just poorly written, and Adam is so, because to put thought into actually making him complex with good motivations, he might just be more right in his actions than peple are willing to admit.
angel is neutral, Husk is complicated (he was an overlord) and now he is owned by Alastor, Alastor just does stuff for himself, Niffty is...well...Niffty, Vaggie was an excorcists in the past, Sir pentious. ..actually he is fine, or maybe not, more or less, Charlie is the only good one and she is the only one who can't even go to Heaven.
and we are assuming that Hazbin Hotel was always going to make a Rick and Morty or Bojack Horseman level mega complex (the inspiration, but that, inspiration)
also Adam is not right in any action he has done, mostly because of his own intentions, it sounds good on theory, but thats on theory, in the doing...yeah
@@Sonic2024freedomera THANK YOU!!!!
@@selena8472 your welcome
@ you seem to understand them a bit better than the rest here to give you an example she won't be trying to reform Cletus Cassidy ever I can assure you.
@ she might help Eddie brock if you wanted the help though.
Additional Note: C.S Lewis did the Hell Redemtion thing a lot better.
The morality in this show is really ass backwards the more I think about it. Hell is treated more like a place misunderstood people go to, and Heaven are the oppressors. There's no pride in being a bad person but this show, (and Helluva Boss), seems to think so
i can count with my hand who are misunderstood...Sir pentious, that one guy who drowned and Rita...yeah thats it, if you want me to make it longer, then we have Angel dust, a few sinners that suffer in the song of happy day in hell, and...well thats it.
and for the last time, ONLY ADAM and extermination is bad, most of heaven is not bad
@@Sonic2024freedomera Angel Dust was in mafia. He killed people. He DEFINENTLY deserves to be in hell.
The show has no nuance sometimes
I think I'll quit cuz I don't even think they'll focus on the redemption part of it anymore
This explains why Adam didn’t seem all that hated to me because I found I enjoyed his character once I had time seek out other view points on him and he’s far from the most evil character I ran into. Sure he’s killing sinners and is rude but he’s not exploiting the people under him like Valentino is. Also it’s pretty bad when you feel bad for the companions of the slain villain, in this case Lute when she watched helplessly as her connabder was slain in front of her; as opposed to Sir Pentious, who was labeled as misunderstood rather than evil being zapped out of existence. Sure he’s the “goid boy” but his death didn’t feel that impactful as Adam’s did.
As for Helluva Boss, it’s definitely the better of the two shows, for as messy as it is too. The reason is that the lead, Blitzo/Blitz isn’t perfect and we as the audience see that his actions and mistakes have consequences that he’s now starting to face. Compare that to a naive princess who feels that everyone can be saved even if the people she’s trying to save aren’t interested in being saved. Who do you think is more relatable?
I'm not going to deny that the two did love each other, although I'm not going to tell you that Lute deserved a lot of sympathy, yes, Adam died, but the girl was so evil, I would even say that her racism was more noticeable.
As for Helluva Boss, that series clearly got more, it has more episodes (season two had 12 and season three will have 15)but again, in comparison, blitz is a villain in his series, not because he is the actual villain, but because of his crimes, and also he is very cynical and knows where his place is in hell, but still tries to raise up over his own class, while Charlie is the hero, but she is naive and has extreme levels of optimism for a realm that is...well...horrible
@ Sure Lute is terrible in her own way but it doesn’t mean I can’t feel bad for her. Yes, I didn’t like that she killed Dazzle but I can accept she at least cares for someone even if he’s a rude asshole.
As far as Blitz is concerned, he’s awful and jaded but still determined to make a name for himself, something that is difficult for imps to accomplish in Hell. Face it, he didn’t start out as a jaded cynic and his upbringing contributed to his self loathing and inability to form stable relationships. Where as Charlie, I get she’s beacon of hope for those stuck in Hell that wish to better themselves. I get positivity is her middle name but I don’t know if that’s enough to save those that she wishes to redeem. I am not trying to convince you of anything, bringing up further points that I may have not mentioned.
At the end of the day.
Everyone is at fault that's why there should be a Rumbling
With the Rumbler crying about his adoptive hapa sister sleeping with another man after being punched by his best childhood butt-buddy friend? Yes please.
I'm sure somebody else has probably mentioned it, but that cannibal child point they made in the show has always bothered me because they could've elaborated on it. For all we know based on what the show has told us, this child is a horrible person because everybody in Hell is meant to be aeful people who've done messed up things in life. However, if this show is meant to be a critique on some aspects of religion (like I've seen a few posts by the Hazbin crew claim), not elaborating on these things makes it hard to see those critiques.
Like, from our point of view, she just tried sparing a cannibal child because they were a child. We have no idea what this child has done when alive (outside of assuming cannibalism based on the type of demon they are), or if that's even the sole reason why she tried sparing them.
Why not try to make a point of how children are malleable, to the point many countries don't find them guilty of crimes under a certain age? In that case, perhaps Heaven is judging people too harshly without looking at the mental states or privileges of each sinner. Or, what if this child is a cannibal, but it was a survival situation? Then Heaven would also have been throwing people who had no choice but to commit sin in order to survive, which isn't fair as it locked those people into it. Or, which this was what I was hoping they were going to do, what if that child literally just didn't know what they were eating because their parents gave them their food and lied?
But they didn't make any arguments for this, and we have no reason to believe the exorcists can just look at a sinner and immediately know the context of their entire lives, so why wouldn't they feel as if they have to kill them? They go to Hell, where they're told the worst of humanity is and that they must kill them to make room for more, so they aren't given a reason to sympathize with them. And it sucks, because I can think of a bunch of easy arguments they could've made over a cannibal child being in Hell, both for and against the idea, that just weren't brought up. Ideas that would make the world uilding less confusing by simply bringing up those arguments, because it'd allow the audience to see both Heaven and Hell's views on what a sin is. Which, for a show that's supposed to be about Christianity, is pretty important but isn't explained properly.
Heaven doesn't even know about the exterminations, Sera only approves them, she doesn't look at anything, Adam's only order apparently is "kill all sinners for the whole day" and that's it.
and the show is not even about Christianity at all
@@Sonic2024freedomera My only issue with the argument which I see a lot is the show isn't about Christianity but yet uses multiple figures FROM the Bible. Adam, Abel, Metatron, Saint Peter, Lucifer, Eve and Lilith to name the most common. If Vivzy isn't writing bible fanfiction I don't know how else this can be excused? I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus doesn't show up at some point as some weird caricature of what she thinks Jesus is.
@@Kushrada why is this a problem?
@@Sonic2024freedomera Its concerning that so many people argue vivzys heaven and hell isn't based on Christianity when it is? Like I'm fine with it being an altered, warped or debased interpretation of it, again Bible fanfiction but its odd that its handwaved en masse that its not supposed to be Christen Heaven and Hell by fans when it is?
Also notice how all of these stories have a lot of controversy around them
The show goes on about "second chances" as if every second we're alive on earth isn't a chance to change. Heaven isn't evil just because these people died procrastinating their improvement. By that logic, I can go "Hurr durr, maybe hitler is a good guy now cause he said sowwy in Hell!!" Like bro, leave it to Hazbin Hotel fans to defend r8pists and murderers
What's funny is even Alastir says your first sentence in the Pilot!
To paraphrase: "Nothing can save these lowly sinners! No, our chance to change was the life we lived before, and our punishment is this!"
Click on the video
Immediately get based opinions
*subscription earned*
I love how hazbin hotel stands are all hating on him in the comments when literally, Adam is making sure the wretched ones suffer for all of their sins.
many people actually love Adam (the hispanic part of the fandom adores him ALOT, yeah also the english side too).
They are already in hell, trapped and can't get out, basically all this is out of pure sadism and that's it, it's like going to jail and killing a criminal, who can't get out of jail under any possible way, that's not true. is doing justice, that is being a sadist
@Sonic2024freedomera true but I mean if a guy goes to jails to kill r@pists, murderers, etc for enjoyment at least me myself would hv more sympathy for him than the r@pist he's killing. Doesn't mean I agree with him or think it's the right thing to do. It seems like the show ironically tries to paint Adam in a black and white 100% evil villian fashion while at the same time claiming that things aren't black and white
@@iy8-z1o
It's not about sympathy, because Adam definitely hasn't proven that he deserves sympathy, nor have sinners, but you can tell when someone does something so cruel, they look more like the criminals they kill rather than someone who thinks he is doing the right thing, he is not thinking he is doing the right thing, he thinks what he is doing is fun, and he cannot get punished for it because they are evil, when what he is doing is evil even the people are evil.
It's like thinking that stealing from a thief doesn't make you a thief.
@@Sonic2024freedomerathing is that in hazbin's hell people dont suffer, so they dont even serve their punishment, bruh
@@5P_OFFICIAL People don't suffer? Would you understand if the idea that hell is infinite, constant fire wasn't seen, but that people don't suffer? That's false.
In the series it is seen that there are sinners who have their houses burned down, or who kill each other (there is a district that is basically a constant war) the cannibals devour the dead bodies, but because almost all of them are immortal for being sinners, they regenerate. (except if they kill you with angelic weapons) the overlords have MILLIONS of souls, and the treatment they give to those souls is not the prettiest, Husk when he was an Overlord bet the souls as if they were money, Alastor has Husk and Niffty as if they were his slaves (although Niffty doesn't care, Husk clearly does not want to be chained) Vox controls people to buy his products, Valentino, well we already know what that guy does, Zestial with just His presence makes people want to hurt themselves or want to run away.
The only reason hell doesn't seem so horrible is because we see it from the perspective of the princess of hell, and she is the third most powerful being in hell (and apparently the only pacifist in all of hell) and she has very high protection.
I'd say it's better for everyone if Adam hadn't done anything.
This is just a really old tactic that writers use when they can't come up with good reasons for their villains to be evil, despite their plots not being black & white. (Bad writing imo, as someone who's been in the writing business a long time)
Adam is ignoring the grayness, he is not being gray, he is being black and white
Do you think Hazbin Hotel or Helluva Boss have any legitimate writing issues?
@Sonic2024freedomera
He was written that way
1 dimensional antagonist
It makes him less interesting only glad they defeated him cuz he's obnoxious
Already we starting to see Hazbin fans coping in the comments whining about you speaking the truth. Sinner defenders and demon worshippers need help.
But well the Hellaverse fandom is full of woke twitter users, so it was to be expected.
I hv never seen a Fandom so willing to defend evil acts including cannibalism, murder, sexual immorality, phycopathy, etc like the hazbin hotel Fandom does
@@Thunderblock7889not woke, just coping,
Woke is highlighting an issue of society or social injustice,
They’re just coping or delusional, either one makes sense.
I think the hazbin fandom is extremely goofy but fear mongering about “the demon worshippers” is also silly. Let’s be honest with ourselves. They’re not “satanic demon worshippers”, they’re teenagers who just want to enjoy their demon twink yaoi. Pretty standard for kids at that age.
if you knew that they also love angels, the good ones off course
Holy fucking _'This Guy Is Based To High Heaven'_ Batman!!!
You covered all my gripes with Vizvieslops garbage writing.
✅ *The Lacking Worldbuilding*
✅ *The Sinner Demon Apologism*
✅ *The Swiss Cheese Levels Of Plotholes*
✅ *THE FUCKING INFO THAT SHOULD BE IN THE SERIES AND NOT ON GODDAMN STREAMS!!!*
Everything im looking for in a critique of this indie-tumblr shifest of a show.
And also the GOAT Adam anaylsis that doesn't just label him a _'Sexist Genocide Stinkyhead'_
You've earned my thumbs up, based sir.
Consider me a subscriber. 💛🪽
I just thought he was annoying and not funny. Then again that sums up all the characters in this show.
This is a very good point. Though the presence of God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit is never even implied, Heaven and Hell in Hazbin do seem to fall under the Moral Law, as argued for in Christianity and other western worldviews. These laws clearly mark certain things as wrong, though conditions can be applied. For example, lying is wrong, unless failing to lie would cause a greater harm. Similarly, murder is wrong, but killing in self-defense is not.
If one violates the Moral Law, one is condemned to Hell as a punishment for their sins. Thus, any sinner who ends up in Hell has already been judged guilty for their crimes. Adam and the Angels killing them is less of a judgement and more of a delayed execution.
Plus, it could even be argued that Adam killing the Demons is merciful, as he is ending their eternal punishment and permitting them to disappear into oblivion.
An argument could be made that the Demons who were born from non-sinners in Hell are actually worthy of not being killed, but considering how most of the Demons in Helluva Boss act, most of them are just as bad as the sinners.
It's stated by viv that hellborn aren't targeted.
What the show seemed to be going for was questioning how those judgements are made, and wether or not they actually hold weight, but so little focus is put on that element of the show it winds up feeling undercooked.
@@sebastienholmes548 i still wonder why people keep ignoring that point
@@scootermcpeanuts6699 They're probably saving that for later seasons. For now what's established is that nobody really knows what makes someone either a sinner or redeemed.
Hazbin Hotel fans when someone literally kills demons to protect humanity: 😭🤬🥺😡
Were they actually threatening living humans?
@@ethancox9737 I.M.P. do it for a living, although they are hellborn. As for sinners, I dunno. Is it ever said they aren't a threat?
@@seabass5892 Right, I remember them.
@@ethancox9737 I.M.P are hellborn paid by sinners to go to earth to kill Humans, in most cases creating more Sinners. This kills humans and accelerates Hells population Crisis. So yes, Sinners are a direct threat to Humanity as even in hell they can spread misery, loss and death to Earth.
@@Kushrada that actually makes so much sense lol! I completely overlooked that, but yeah, I.M.P is literally making Charlie’s goal harder and harder to reach
15:08 What exactly is sir pentious's sin
He saw his client murdering someone and he did nothing to stop him, he didn't tell anyone about it or prevent his future murders
@erikakoti2910 So he didn't tell anyone that someone he Knew was killing people, wow that really is lame
A sin of omission @connorludwig8472
@@erikakoti2910 This is so stupid. Murder witnesses in real life usually do not report the crime, because they are too afraid (not exactly their fault, it is a psychological problem).
At first so did I think he was just annoying but with time so did he and Lute become my favorites, sure he can still be a bit annoying with his "bro behavior" but in general so is he a good guy and seems to care about the people around him, also he is correct wit his opionion of hell, I mean what has the hotel succeded with? redemed 1 guy and showed that Angel Dust might have some good qualities? while 99,99% of the rest of the sinners we see loves being evil and see the hotel and redemtion as a joke, even Charlies army she gathers dont believe in it, they just dont want to be stopped from doing evil acts and eat angels, also the only reason the sinners has not invaded Heaven and turned it into a wasteland is that they where not able to but they would happily do it in a heartbeat if they think they could suceed, so Adam did not only the correct thing in general but his plan to cull the hell population more frequently was a logical solution to a growing problem.
I also like to point out the sad and inevitable truth of our existence
We humans are inherently selfish about 90% of the time
We are self-destructive
If I could say something to Charlie it would be “Not EVERYONE can be redeemed”
There will always be those who are sadly either a lost cause, or down right evil that redemption is impossible
the fact that there are almost 8 billion humans should be enough of a counter-argument to your point, if humans were cruel selfish creatures then we wouldn't care enough to have progeny, being selfless is the default human behavior, those who are cruel and evil are the exception, broken because they fail to be human
@@rexturbo10 Well said.
I like your channels aesthetic.
Glad you like it!
Yeah, some of these guys don't have the capacity for redemption, but to say that none of them should be redeemed is the problem. Some of them have committed the crimes they did out of desperation. Some sins can be very minor, and you'd say that condones their murder?
depends on what they did to get to Hell. The show loves to go on about "second chances" without realizing that every SECOND we're alive on earth is a chance to change.
@@joemama1132 Well I have one example, tho it’s based off little information but nothing in the show contradicts it. Husk became a sinner because he was a gambler and a drinker. Viv has stated this before the release of the show, there nothing to contradict it, and he still has the same habits and isn’t murdery or ____ like many other characters. I will say Viv does a terrible job at showing this, her stories are always written like a 14 year old’s watt-pad fanfic. The only other example I can think of for a character is someone from the helluva boss show, and she was only in a short too, but we don’t get much information other than her being horny and cringy. Viv really needs to learn show don’t tell and actually challenge both sides of the arguments made. Like all she needs to do is show more characters that didn’t go to hell for being murders, r____, serial killers, torturing people. She could easily make this argument with Husk but I doubt she will, and if she were to take more inspiration from Dante’s Inferno she could add in the idea that people that commit s__c_de go to hell, yes it’s very dark and brings up a lot of questions but also the whole point she wants to make. Not only that but it was also theorized that that’s how Husk died due to the wings in his design that don’t fit anything else, and for sinner designs it’s about what you hate about yourself, how you lived, and how you died. The wings wouldn’t match with anything else other than how he died (falling) though we won’t get any confirmation till the end of the show or when we see it in the show. I have my doubts, my only faith in the theory is that viv might fully go with it because a large chunk of the fandom theories it, that or she’s bad at design in world building. What do you think?🤔 I’m a bit curious, and I’m sorry if I yapped a lot there😅, it’s just a very interesting topic.
@@glitchhoffe1293 Personally, I myself and many other Christians don't think you'll go to hell for su1c1de, since those ppl are primarily so mentally ill that they can't rlly be held accountable for their actions.
Also, its theorized that in biblical times, they made su1c1de a sin so ppl wouldn't go "I wanna be in Heaven now, bye lol"
As for gambling, its mostly seen as a sin because people would waste all their money on that vice, neglecting important things like feeding themselves or their families. I don't think going to the casino ONCE with friends would send you there, its about moderation and discipline.
I could see Husk going to hell because he prioritized his gambling over the ones he was supposed to care about, but that's never stated clearly in the show. Ur right about Vivzies super shallow, wattpad-y writing, cause exploring this would legit be interesting
I hope Abel is a good guy
I'd be shocked if he showed up.
@@llewelynshingler2173 he does according to the leaks, but he acts like your typical left-winged hipster Californian, surprisingly he is straight but I wouldn't be shocked if later on he turns to be on the closet or some shit like that
@@rexturbo10 where would Cain be?
@@rexturbo10 your telling me the first murder victim is going to be a bad guy? Are Jeffrey Dahmer's victims going to be antagonists next since apparently being murdered makes you evil
I like your video. But you did make a few mistakes.
1. The overpopulation thing has been retconned and the actual reasons for the extermination are: the that if there are enough sinners in hell, they would rise up against heaven and, as Adam himself said for entertainment.
2. The characters in helluva boss are hell spawn A. K. A. literal demons born and raised in hell and such, they cannot be redeemed and are not a part of the extermination.
Not saying your video is invalid, just want you to get your facts right.
P. S. Sorry for bad English, it is not my first language.
I thin in the other series one of the characters said that hell was full of h*tlers and epsteins, so is Charlie really try to get the most deplorable parts of society sent to heaven?
Yes she does. She is THAT stupid. Charlie does think people like Oskar Dirlewanger and his goons should get a chance to go to heaven.
@@canuquackliekaDUCK really then answer me this ok??do you really and I mean *really* think Charlie would try to get Hitler into heaven??seriously??or is it you think *liberals* are that whacked huh??
Well, yeah, but... Christianity says that even if you 100% innocent, you WILL ended up in hell if youra not christian. And also not all bad people as bad as hitler. Even knowing that hitler not as bad as people think... Charlie is still stupid and arrogand, but it doesnt mean that redemption doesnt working at all. Hazbin just need better writting
@@maplered5042 *laughs* oh you're rich that absolutely the most absurdist thing I've heard today. let me educate you Darling hello I'm Selena I'm half Jewish /Half Greek so where my soul will end up is beyond me but my patron Deity is Nyx which means likely the Elysian Fields or Tartarus but I sincerely don't know which one it will be and frankly I don't want to know ok??on the Day I stand before Hades and his queen(possibly depending time of year I die) I sincerely hope I will make it to the Elysian Fields but unless my soul has learned all the lessons I am supposed to then I will likely have a small time to rest (maybe 100 years of something like that you know maybe humanity will get it's shit together in that time???) and then sent back down to this plane again but even this I am uncertain about because oddly enough I have not been beyond the veil at least as far as I can remember but you know what I'm ok with that I'm human not meant to know everything. so you and your wonderful Ideas can go take a flying leap got it!!!!???oh yes have a nice day *gives her best Alastor grin*
@selena8472 wtf r u tlk bout
5:19 what that’s so lame, it would be way cooler if he really was the ruler before Lucifer. I don’t really care that much about the plot (I’m an animation nerd first and foremost), but still
He may not be evil but his voice is like the audio version of pouring lemon juice on an open wound
I mean, the goverment is kinda evil tho...
but the fact that Steve Jobs works with the government is shocking D: (lmao)
Honestly I left being a Vivziepop fan in 2024 😭
You made the right decision.
I've seen lots of these kinds of videos but none of them point this out so I'm going to there's nothing to feel bad about when the sinners are killed because they aren't bad people or even horribly evil people they aren't people at all they are over the top cartoon villains Red Skull but not Hitler that guy over there didn't rob a bank he blew it up tied a woman to the train tracks and curled his mustache
I agree with that take you made a choice
Bro is incredibly funny and doesn't even try, good video😭😭😭😭😭😭
Thanks 😅
9:26 Harems are sinful, and The Bible shows God not allowing them.
Where, You can't just say "in the bible" and disdapear, do you have an idea of how Big that book is
this show doesn't explain what is a sin and it's not based on the bible or any other religion at that.
@thewitchidolsachika6682
The show is definitely inspired by religions
But they wanted to make their own spin on things so they can tell a good story, problem is they didn't make any rules for what gets you into hell or heaven soo... Ya get left confused
@@slimer44producciones3 fair point, semi counterpoint. Google
No, what the bible is against is polygamy and lusting for the wives of other men.
The definition of a harem comes from the Arabic: ḥarīm, which can mean "a sacred inviolable place", "harem" or "female members of the family" If you think of a harem by its use in anime then GTFO because you are so wrong that you might as well throw the towel to not suffer more indignity
... did you just say making a character shoot a child makes him cooler?!
.... I.... do not feel comfortable with this.
Johan Liebert
@@Sonic2024freedomera ... Who?
Maybe they meant more threatening?
@@abiliv-lf9tz God I hope so. Otherwise... i am concerned about what they consider cool.
Angel dust is a New York mobster’s son, in what way is he a “Mexican coke-cane(changing it because TH-cam) gangster?
And Helluva Boss character are hell-born, they can’t be redeemed, only sinners can be redeemed.
Do you know the concept of a joke?
Genuine question, did you watch the show? It definitely has its problems, but many of your argument are literally just wrong
Can you care to explain on which arguments?
You literally advocated for genocide in this.
@@engpol-1036We know how people get redeemed in that we know people can change, the aspect of redemption we don't know is how to get Heaven to accept that and allow sinners to go there which is what the first and sixth episodes are dedicated to. Even if we had no idea that this would work, it's not bad writing to have a character aim for a goal that hasn't been shown to be reachable, that's extremely basic storytelling, she's an idealistic character fighting for an idealistic goal, that's the point. We also see Sir Pentious be reborn in Heaven so we know that this is reachable regardless, this is no longer baseless because an attempt was made to achieve this goal, that's how stories work.
As for redemption and the hotel not being a core focus of the show, I genuinely don't know whete this came from. The first episode is trying to get Heaven to agree, the second is getting another resident in the hotel (who becomes the first to be redeemed), the third is the least related to any of this but is still important so as to prepare for the final battle, the fourth has Angel's character development as the main focus, fifth is character development and getting into Heaven, sixth is once again all about character development and Heaven and shit, and then seven and eight are showing how the characters have grown as people as they all work together to fight against the injustice they've been fighting against the whole show. The whole show is structured around redemption, this isn't pushed aside for sex jokes, there's just also sex jokes
This isn't you being inaccurate because morality is subjective, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that genocide against those of Hell is justified by default because they're bad people and order has to be kept. I personally believe killing bad people is still bad unless it prevents further harm which could be argued for to an extent in this case (although they're killing the lower level sinners rather than the ones doing 99% of the harm), but the argument of the show isn't even that it's bad to kill bad people, the show ends with a battle. The argument is that, if redemption is possible, choosing violence over redemption is a bad thing. Adam's argument isn't that he's doing this for the greater good, it's that he finds the exterminations fun and doesn’t care about redemption because he'd prefer to inflict violence, that's the idea the show is arguing against. Sera is the same way, she rejects redemption even when seeing that it's possible because she fears what will happen to the order of things, she'd rather choose violence because she views it as safer and also doesn't want to empathize too much because she's terrified of being cast down herself
The overpopulation of Heaven is never brought up as a counterargument so we have no reason to believe that this would be a problem. Hell is exactly that, Hell, a trash bin to throw sinners into and let them torture each other, they're going to make it much more limited than Heaven, a paradise. Otherwise, Heaven is going to eventually overpopulate and they're going to have to start killing large amounts of people in Heaven, even without Hell. Allowing people to redeem themselves also doesn't mean that literally everyone in Hell suddenly materializes in Heaven. If you show yourself to meet the standards of Heaven, you go there, that's all redemption in this context, the same thing as on Earth except after death instead of before. If your argument is that people could become bad after going to Heaven, that applies equally to everyone else there (such as Adam). A certain austrian painter would not automatically go to Heaven, he would have to genuinely become a better person and stay that way which is unbelievably unlikely but still technically theoretically possible, but let's say he did become a better person and thus worthy of Heaven according to its own rules. Even disregarding that this is an extreme situation that doesn't apply to the VAST majority of redemptions, what's the issue with allowing him to go to Heaven? If he's worthy, what's the point?
Again, not an inaccuracy, but saying it justified to condemn someone otherwise deemed "good" to living the rest of their (after)life in Hell because they spared a child's life because the kid was probably a cannibal (not necessarily a killer, just a cannibal, we see the cannibals eating the corpses from after exterminations that Adam and his girls killed so they're the ones actually doing the killing here) is a bad take imo. This is also assuming Vaggie knew the kid was a cannibal, all we know that she knew was that she was about to kill a kid in Hell, there is no further context that we know she had regarding this situation. Depending on how strict Heaven's rules are, this kid could've theoretically just been a petty thief in life, she has no reason to look at this kid and say "yeah, he probably ate and killed his parents, I'm going to murder this terrified child". I could also be misremembering this but I could’ve sworn it was said that there are no kids in Hell making this kid hellborn, which the exorcists aren't allowed to kill, that's part of the deal, so if this is true and I'm not misremembering or it wasn't retconned, she was literally following orders and was brutally punished for not being overly sadistic to the point of breaking the rules simply to kill a random child
With all due respect, you agreeing with Adam saying things are black-and-white is very telling. You are actively avoiding all potential nuance as the show is directly showing you this nuance. The whole show is based around character development that you somehow didn't notice that shows bad people getting better despite existing under systems that strongly incentivize bad behavior, this nuance is shown directly to Heaven and Sera dismisses it all in favor of violence, that's what the show is trying to point out. Simplifying it to "there are good people and there are evil people, any violence against those I think are evil is fundamentally justified as they are incapable of change" is a morally-apprehensible take to me, although I don't care much in this context because this is fiction. That being said, I hope you don't view real life from this perspective (I know of a certain austrian painter who definitely did)
@@engpol-1036 I just spent an hour responding to everything you said about Adam and youtube automod deleted it. Luckily I copied it so it isn't lost, but I'll have to censor things to try to find out what got it deleted
@@engpol-1036 We know how people get redeemed in that we know people can change, the aspect of redemption we don't know is how to get Heaven to accept that and allow sinners to go there which is what the first and sixth episodes are dedicated to. Even if we had no idea that this would work, it's not bad writing to have a character aim for a goal that hasn't been shown to be reachable, that's extremely basic storytelling, she's an idealistic character fighting for an idealistic goal, that's the point. We also see Sir Pentious be reborn in Heaven so we know that this is reachable regardless, this is no longer baseless because an attempt was made to achieve this goal, that's how stories work
As for redemption and the hotel not being a core focus of the show, I genuinely don't know where this came from. The first episode is trying to get Heaven to agree, the second is getting another resident in the hotel (who becomes the first to be redeemed), the third is the least related to any of this but is still important so as to prepare for the final battle which doubles as an ideological battle, the fourth has Angel's character development as the main focus, fifth is character development and getting into Heaven, sixth is once again all about character development and Heaven and shit, and then seven and eight are showing how the characters have grown as people as they all work together to fight against the injustice they've been fighting against the whole show. The whole show is structured around redemption, this isn't pushed aside for s3x jokes, there's just also s3x jokes
This isn't you being inaccurate because morality is subjective, but I strongly disagree with your assertion that g3nocide against those of Hell is justified by default because they're bad people and order has to be kept. I personally believe killing bad people is still bad unless it prevents further harm which could be argued for to an extent in this case (although they're killing the lower level sinners rather than the ones doing 99% of the harm), but the argument of the show isn't even that it's bad to kill bad people, the show ends with a battle. The argument is that, if redemption is possible, choosing violence over redemption is a bad thing. Adam's argument isn't that he's doing this for the greater good, it's that he finds the exterminations fun and doesn’t care about redemption because he'd prefer to inflict violence, that's the idea the show is arguing against. Sera is the same way, she rejects redemption even when seeing that it's possible because she fears what will happen to the order of things, she'd rather choose violence because she views it as safer and also doesn't want to empathize too much because she's terrified of being cast down herself, she's on the side of the status quo by default and the status quo is eternal damnation
The overpopulation of Heaven is never brought up as a counterargument so we have no reason to believe that this would be a problem. Hell is exactly that, Hell, a trash bin to throw sinners into and let them torture each other, they're going to make it much more limited than Heaven, a paradise. Otherwise, Heaven is going to eventually overpopulate and they're going to have to start killing large amounts of people in Heaven even without Hell's population. Allowing people to redeem themselves also doesn't mean that literally everyone in Hell suddenly materializes in Heaven. If you show yourself to meet the standards of Heaven, you go there, that's all redemption is in this context, the same thing as on Earth except after death instead of before. If your argument is that people could become bad after going to Heaven, that applies equally to everyone else there (such as Adam). A certain austrian painter would not automatically go to Heaven, he would have to genuinely become a better person and stay that way which is unbelievably unlikely but still technically theoretically possible, but let's say he did become a better person and thus worthy of Heaven according to its own rules. Even disregarding that this is an extreme situation that doesn't apply to the VAST majority of redemptions (most people realistically were a normal level of bad rather than the perpetrators of g3nocides liie said painter or Adam), what's the issue with allowing him to go to Heaven? If he's worthy, what's the point in denying anyone's redemption purely to have an excuse to keep him out? How does the benefit outweigh the harm here?
Again, not an inaccuracy, but saying it justified to condemn someone otherwise deemed "good" to living the rest of their (after)life in a place meant to torture you because they spared a child's life because the kid was probably a cannibal (not necessarily a killer, just a cannibal, we see the cannibals eating the corpses from after exterminations that Adam and his girls killed so they're the ones actually doing the killing here) is a bad take imo. This is also assuming Vaggie knew the kid was a cannibal, all we know that she knew was that she was about to kill a kid in Hell, there is no further context that we know she had regarding this situation. Depending on how strict Heaven's rules are, this kid could've theoretically just been a thief or something
in life, she has no reason to look at this kid and say "yeah, he probably ate and killed his parents, I'm going to murder this terrified child with glee because of this assumption". I could also be misremembering this but I could’ve sworn it was said that there are no kids in Hell making this kid hellborn, which the exorcists aren't allowed to kill, that's part of the deal, so if this is true and I'm not misremembering or it wasn't retconned, she was literally following orders and was brutally punished for not being overly sadistic to the point of breaking the rules simply to kill a random child
With all due respect, you agreeing with Adam saying things are black-and-white is very telling. You are actively avoiding all potential nuance as the show is directly showing you this nuance. The whole show is based around character development that you somehow didn't notice that shows bad people getting better despite existing under systems that strongly incentivize bad behavior, this nuance is shown directly to Heaven and Sera dismisses it all in favor of violence, that's what the show is trying to point out. Simplifying it to "there are good people and there are evil people, any violence against those I think are evil is fundamentally justified as they are incapable of change" is a morally-apprehensible take to me that only reinforces the cycle of violence, although I don't care much in this context because this is fiction. That being said, I hope you don't view real life from this perspective (I know of a certain austrian painter who definitely did)
Hazbin hotel sinners aren't demons in the same way doom demons are tho. Demons in doom don't have personalities, they are just evil creatures that are fun to fight. Sinners in hazbin hotel are people, bad people but still people, therefore commiting genocide against them is wrong. Also the angels commit the genocide before schedule because one angel got killed, i think that's the show making clear that the genocides have nothing to do with helping control the population, they are a demonstration of power. People like Adam because he is a fun villain, not because genocide is good :/
Would you like to say then that Hitler, Saddam Hussein, or Iosef Stanlin should be redeemed?
@@rexturbo10 Would you like to say that child Vaggie spared SHOULDN'T?
@WillieManga she should have killed it because:
A. It is a cannibal
B. How do you know is a child?
C. Look at any news about children commiting evil deeds and not even you would spare two seconds on wanting to kill those monsters
@@WillieManga that kid didnt rlly make sense. In the shows cannon, arent sinners unable to have children? Where did the kid come from? WHY was he sent to Hell? In Christianity, kids go to Heaven by default upon death, since any action they do is based on innocent ignorance. Even kid killers usually end up that way because of trauma from an adult. They just used that kid as a tool to make vaggie seem sympathetic
Tell me, would your opinion be any different if the kid Vaggie spared didn't have the features indicating he was a cannibal?
So... If the situation had a completely different context resulting in a completely different moral debate??
Not really, since it's still a child in Hell.
@@engpol-1036 Wait, I forgot about that. They're still in hell, that child somehow did something to deserve going to hell anyway.
@@engpol-1036 You're sure it wouldn't change your opinion at all?
@@ethancox9737 The kid's in hell my guy. We see that many demons don't strictly have to look the age they were when they died. And while the show is trying to laud the mystery of what qualifies as sin or not, we can really only work from our understanding. If the one under threat was human, or angel, that would probably change it. But this is a sinner. Regardless of if the marks are of a cannibal or anything else, they're there for an in universe reason.
Essay Defense for Hazbin Hotel even though the writing isn't its strong-suit:
During the whole Adam section, you just looked at a bunch of characters and said "they shouldn't be in heaven because they are evil". Yes, they are. I'm willing to bet they aren't currently worthy of being redeemed. But what if they change? The concept of purgatory is basically what they are putting as Hell. Yes, they aren't worthy at all, they are bad people, but forgetting they are people is a bad concept to have. Charlie keeps saying "give them the chance to redeem themselves" because they have human emotions and humans are programmed with a sense of empathy, good and evil, yet they act like they are going to be one state of evil for an eternity. Humans can change DRASTICALLY, so much so, you can forget they are the same person. Ignoring the fact that you would be brain dead and mentally unstable from being immortal after a while since the show doesn't address that, they have all the time in the world to reflect and contemplate. Hell hazbin (you clap now) reinforcing the sin and society will laugh at you for trying to be good. Sinners will keep sinning because it's pointless, no more take backs, trying will grant you nothing and you will make no difference in society. Fall back in line, give into the indoctrination of Hell, as chaos is the order Hell maintains. Vending machines full of hard drugs, XXX shops as common as fast food chains. Every sinner that ever existed had all amassed together to conceive a society, and they made California. Charlie is making steps in the right direction, give them a chance, even if they don't deserve a chance, maybe they are like that because they never even got one. Charlie's desire is to just turn Hell into one big therapy and rehabilitation center, it's objectively not a bad system, but since heaven won't accept the idea of anything from that godless hellhole being in heaven, or that being even being possible, why would they make or support a system that allows a sinner from Hell into heaven? Heaven's genocide is rooted in discrimination and their ideas of them deserving eternal flame or never changing. I get it, it's damn near impossible to find an alright person in Hell, if there ever was one, why wouldn't they be in heaven? I would tell you, but I suddenly got hit with deep self awareness after the autism wore off and I realized this is a youtube comment and I spent way too long writing this essay. You gotta believe me when I say I'm not offended or angry and this isn't a fandom super rant, I just like expressing opinions on things. Hazbin Hotel isn't even in my top 10s you gotta believe me!
Only problem with this comment is you gotta indent it more. Hard to read otherwise.
Prescisly thats exactly what I was thinking I would like to also add that Adam is inherilty evil not because he is rude or anything like that the reason imo is that he wants and likes to kill it is not a duty for him its a pleasure and sure someone might say that "he is killing the bad guys so who cares" but he isnt killing only bad people but also those who try to be better like the crew from hazbin Adam by trying to stop them from becoming better people shows that he isnt for the people in hell to become better people and potentially go to heaven but he just wants and likes to kill them because they are demons and he only sees the world in black and white that narrow minded view doesnt help bad people turn good but upkeeps the status quo perhaps in the real world it is not advisiable to forgive everyone but in hell? when everyone is already dead and cant to any harm to noone? why not give those people a chance and Adam by refusing to allow change will remain as the bad guy
What if Hitler tries to "change"? Saying "sorry" to his millions of victims doesn't change what he did. Every second we're alive on earth is a chance to change, why is it Heavens fault that they decided to procrastinate?
Since my first comment seems to have vanished I'll restate it. Genocide is wrong.
Prove it.
Adam is the good guy. And overpopulation is a problem.
@@Thunderblock7889 Yes Overpopulation is a problem. Genocide is not the answer and if Adam were a good guy he would hear out Charlie's proposed solution and say something along the lines of "I don't think we can let sinner's into heaven." Not break out ignore her, then break out into song and belittle her for trying. If Adam were a good person he'd act more like Sera did in the trial. Clearly you haven't watched the show.
@@oddsmile1234 Imagine if you're in a serious business to solve a serious problem, and your first impression is them showing their illustrations using fucking crayons.
If you think that's stupid, congratulations you understand that Charlie is a freaking idiot, and why Adam doesn't take her seriously.
And when it comes to genocide, look I understand it's a difficult subject, however if the group of people only do is harm other people and provide NOTHING else?
Then it's warranted.
Sure maybe they are some sinners that are trying to be good, or perhaps some like you mention, someone was forced to eat others, however the show itself doesn't mention that fact, nor does a good job defending the sinners.
@@oddsmile1234 Counterpoint: Orcs.
9 times out of ten, Orcs in fictional media are either too aggressive to ever be reasoned with or are just downright *evil.*
Is killing them all wrong regardless because "Genocide is not the answer"?
You could say "well the Orcs can't help being the way they are", A. that doesn't change the fact that they need to be *stopped,* and B. that Freudian excuse does not hold up for the literal human garbage that is Hell's civilian population.
Vivziepop's Hell isn't Christian Hell. You don't go there by rejecting God. You go there by being the biggest Piece of Shit you can be. Literally every Sinner in Hell did at least one thing bad enough to warrant being sent down there, and of the course of the 10,000+ years of Hell's existence, only *two* have shown anything resembling a willingness to change for the better. By contrast, assuming that reincarnation, Purgatory, or some other third option does not exist, everyone who does *not* go to Hell instead goes to Heaven by default. Since Jesus Christ almost certainly never gave His life on the cross in this series of events, that means it is very possible for human beings to make it into Heaven on their own. Take Adam, for instance. Flawed and capricious he may be, yet whatever objective sorting system that determines one's destination after death decided that Adam was good enough for Heaven. If someone like *him* could get in, then what excuse does the rest of mankind have for not being able to do so? Being corrupted by the forbidden fruit? Again, the presence of human souls in Heaven proves that humans do not suffer from a lack of agency as a result of said corruption. it is very possible for humans to make it to Heaven in Vivzie's world, the Sinners just chose not to. Hell is forever, and that is perfectly fine.
Personally, If an omnipresent being deliberately chose someone to reside in a realm of paradise for their actions and lifestyle: It would be literally impossible to argue that they're worse than someone that was chosen to live in a realm of agony...
But then again, the show was made by a spiteful lesbian that made a show about 'nuanced sinners', so obviously she'd make a strawman.
Omnipresent doesn't mean inarguably correct on questions of morality
@@crypt5129 It can be argued that whoever wrote the laws of morality to begin with does indeed have the final say regarding right and wrong.
@christopherbravo1813 That's not how morality works
@@crypt5129 how does morality work?
@@crypt5129 Yes, of course. Everyone knows that right and wrong can only be decided by mortal men.
I disagree with your assessment that Adam is in the right. A lot of this can be chalked up to the show's shaky writing, but even with that, Adam is not a good person. In the same song you reference Adam's worldview, he explicitly says extermination is entertainment. He slaughters Sinners because it's fun; the fact they were horrible people in life is a convenient justification.
This invites the question: is genocide bad because you disagree with the act itself or are you okay with it if the people deserve it? If the answer is the former, your argument is shot. If it's the latter, who are the Angels to pass that judgment when they don't even know what gets someone into Heaven? By that same logic, what ultimately condemns a person to Hell? Again, you can look to the show's writing for this, but it's apparent that Heaven is not a fair system. If they have to hide the Exterminations from their souls, then even they know the act is horrifying to them. People who think they're doing something or unacceptable typically don't try to hide it. The Elders of Heaven are explicitly doing this for control, not altruisim.
Also, Charlie is helping Sinners who want to be redeemed. Who want to put in the effort. Those who don't want to be helped aren't being forced into the hotel. They can keep being themselves and rot for eternity.
What if the sinner who wanted to be redeemed was a murder, abuser, and rapist? Would it be right to their victims to allow them the chance into Heaven?
The show is made so the angels are in the wrong. There is no reason why the angels don't know how one gets to heaven or hell since they built it, they have to know bc they created the rules
Wrong. Charlie's mindset is that everybody can be redeemed. That is factually wrong. There are some things you can't come back from. Also, how would a victim react if the person that k1lled or r4ped them was now happy in heaven? Ever thought about that? In real life you'd want someone like that to rot in prison for life for what they did to somebody. So why is it different for characters like Alastor? I get it, he's charismatic, but he's a murdering maniac. Adam too can be seen as a murdering maniac but he's killing those who deserve it after doing unspeakable evil in life (and death as well). Adam is on the right side on this. Not to mention the fact that we have a bunch of sinners as protagonists, Alastor most of all. Nothing will ever convince me he deserves redemption, no matter how much the fandom want to empathize with him.
@faith518 You are right. Again, the show doesn't even try to question charlie's mindset.
@@camerondalton1495I mean, considering heaven and hell in HH setting is a reflection of the prison system in some way, I think it is dubious to think that keeping em locked in instead of rehabilitating em is pretty fuck up. Murderers, rapists, etc. should have a second chance is what I am saying.
Ironwood and John walker were sympathetic, just following orders, and just trying to do what they thought was right. Adam was just an entitled asshole. Plain and simple. 😑
He was an asshole to hellions, honestly I would be also one to hell denizems
@ he was because he felt superior than them. The fact that there are people who are actually defending this man is crazy. 😑
@Green-Hybrid3017 is an angel fighting demons, why wouldnt we defend him? And besides demons are inferior to creation itself, a twisted corrupt parody that would never be the real deal
@@rexturbo10 you do know that we’re part of the problem right. Most people nowadays got to hell. Just because your an angel from heaven doesn’t automatically mean that you’re good. One example is sentinel prime from transformers one. I’m happy that Adam is gone. Rest in piss bozo, you will not be missed. 😑
How is someone who actively enjoys indiscriminate Genocide on a yearly basis a strawman? like at some point you just gotta accept a character is blatantly evil mate and not everything is morally complex.
I mean if you go to heaven and you have a happy life there. will you be happy to see the person that sent you there come by and visit and act like they didn't murder you.
The reason why I bring this up is because I'm not trying to guilt trip is just something to bring up I mean for crying out loud I think HH could have really expanded on something like that showing how complicated the situation is. I mean I'm not trying to say Adam is a good person or not because it was clearly thrown out the window the way they portray him I mean for crying out loud this could have been an interesting series where there was no villains except people at each other's throats trying to reach a simple solution without considering what the other side thinks.
I don't want to get political but I am a Mexican-American and yes I do agree that America needs to upgrade their border policy. I do get the arguments about people wanting to get a much better life here because America offers a lot of opportunities, but crossing the border illegally isn't the way to start. some people try to make me sound bad by saying "well how the heck are they supposed to know are you telling them that all they're doing for nothing that their dreams are not meant to happen" and the answer I have for that is well if there's a illegal way to immigrate shouldn't there be a legal way to immigrate I mean there's evidence of cartel sending human trafficking victims to America so they can further expand their business there to get more money. not to mention my cousin needed to move here into America after a bunch of gangs forced him to transport drugs while keeping his family hostage. And if we apply the same thinking like the main character of HH does about everybody deserving a second chance how do you think people like my cousin is going to feel if they found out that the people that have been holding his family members hostage and forcing him to transport drugs are you going to be living in the same country as him is it going to make him feel?
It depends on what show you're talking about and what the morality in-universe is. Tell me, is Genocide when someone feels like it such a bad thing that makes someone a villain in your eyes? Then why are Angel Dust and Cherry Bomb not villains when they do the same?
A strawman is how you make someone antagonistic by taking away all the arguments, blacks, whites and greys taking away everything until all it's left is a flanderization of the same person with feeble arguments easier to break. They made Adam a bad guy for killing killers who feel no remorse. That's bad writing.
It’s because the writers stripped the nuances of why someone in Adam’s place would actually kill demons in the first place. Instead of having a nuanced reason for why he kills demons they just say: “i kill demons because it’s fun for me to do so and that’s my only reason why”.
Note: before anyone mentions Sera, the yearly exterminations were Adam’s idea
@simonpetrikov3992
This
@redmagic2113 Because the writers are hacks who wouldn't understand nuance even if it punched their faces
@EngPol Let's see. Your first back up is a piece of dialogue, which while it has been a while since I played that section in ME2, but as far as I remember there's another force at play in the situation you just conveniently *cherry picked* out of the situation (get used to those words). Secondly, the dialogue references a choice that is misrepresented here, ok?? In ME1 you are given a choice A) Paragon: Spare the Rachni queen or B) Renegade: Kill the queen. If you *actually* knew the lore, you would know the Rachni were not "let loose" on the universe by anyone. Humans opened a new relay and the Rachni came through again. Been a while since I played that, hmmm, maybe I need to go back and play again. Sounds like a good idea to me *grins* .
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I will admit I have not seen all of RWBY, but I did get far enough to know Ironwood's plan has been tried in another show and that was PR: LSR they wanted to replace the rangers with "Cyborgs" which were actually robots but that's a quibble which is neither here nor there. Penny is the one out of all of Droids, or whatever they were supposed to be, that actually had a soul, so she moved beyond being a simple machine and, to clarify simple machine, means that even with a predictive VI, they still must do what they are programmed to do. Penny is subject to this to an extent, but not the same as his other models and, if I must guess, she was a bit like Data and Lore. She had free will but, "father" speaks the correct phrase and she will execute a preprogrammed set of directives, but then again both Data 1.0 and Lore were subject to that as well, but his plan would work and likely did work in the short term. In TNG "The Booby Trap" Geordi said, "Forget the numbers." The computer can't account for the human factor, the desire to survive. For all the talk about still needing humans, I wonder how far Ironwood would push it if he could and no matter how you frame it, he's nowhere near a victim.
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You're Defending *John walker!!!???*, the US Agent? It literally says in the wiki about him, he's a hardline Christian nationalist who also says that he's softened over time, but hey in a world where MAGA exists the character, from 1945 Brooklyn can't possibly be the good guy anymore. The UDA Agent was never a true good guy, but he wasn't a villain either. He is what the modern government would want out of Captain America, a good solider who puts country before everything else. While that's a good solider that's *not* a good person. Here's something from his wiki for you. Though Walker is a hardline Christian, militant, right-wing conservative believing in country before anything else. He has softened over the years and even has become disillusioned with his own government. Literally the best thing in there is his becoming disillusioned with his government.
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Adam and his sycophant, Lute literally drip Pride, and then there's Wrath and let's not forget Adam's favorite *Lust*. So you *think* you have all the info?? I've watched it like 10 times and I still don't feel like I know everything about everyone. You think your two scenarios are literally the only ones??? I would say I'm gonna forgive your crack about the leader of the third Reich and the crack at Jewish people's expense as well.
Let's look at this from two perspectives, ok?? The first, do you think Viv is *that dumb!!!* That she would try to make a case for him *ever!!!!!???* Secondly, the sheer variety of characters there means someone is *highly likely* to know who he is ok??
Charlie can manipulate Vaggie only so far which is why someone like him is never gonna show up. There are people who are nowhere near the level of Hitler or Epstein and I can assure you they'd end up there too. It's not just reserved for the Hitlers and Epstein's of the world. What we have seen, and I do emphasize what we have seen, of Heaven doesn't impress me. It reminds me of the Tops in Yugi oh 5Ds. Sera is a Seraphim. Currently the highest ranking angel there is, but she still allows it out of fear, the same fear that drove *ADAM* to do the "Fuck you I do what I want" bit at the end his song,.
If, and I do mean if, you *actually* watch the show and I mean watched it, not just being there to make *this video*, but actually watched it, then much of what you are even talking about would've been answered. All else being said I must really thank you because at 12:01 you have completely defeated all your own arguments. For example, Alastor has never shown a desire for redemption, but then why would he be there??? Why "Fulfill Charlie's bizarre requests"??? Hmmm, I'll let you think on that.
On the other hand, we can see over eight episodes Angel and Sir Pentious change, and in this case, it's a change in them whether they wanted to or not, but for it to happen they have to have wanted it on some level. To date, we have no idea how these people get reborn into the Pride ring, especially into the forms we see them in. Some you can theorize about, like Alastor. Well, only when he taps his power. Do you actually truly see changes and it doesn't have to be his full power either. Others are harder. Angel, I couldn't begin to theorize about him. Sir Pentious, I definitely can't tell you. Seriously ???? Someone and as a TH-camr to boot uses the word "Retarded"??? Wow. Just wow.
If you are gonna use a scene, use the full set of scenes Charlie and Emily: "If angels can do whatever, and remain in the sky, the rules are shades of gray. When you don't do as you say. When you make the wretched suffer just to kill them again." I do warn you right now, the incoming administration is about free speech for themselves, but not for us. Meaning you stay on their good side, they will protect your "free speech". By the way we must be watching a different show *sex jokes!!!!???* You seem to think that Charlie is out to redeem everyone. Guess what, and here's the kicker. Alastor was asked why he couldn't *make* people stay there. It was stated explicitly that they want people to *want* to stay there. A weird thing called free will, but thanks for just outing yourself as to who you voted for. It explains a lot. Are the angels in the wrong???? A couple of warhawks gleefully killing off human souls. Uh, *FUCK YES!!!!*, so how do you choose who is to be sacrificed huh?? Uh do you know anything about Marvel comics? Wait. Never mind I think I stopped caring when I heard you use the R word.
John Walker was never depicted in the show as a right-wing christian, that's why I only uses Wiki's as a reference but not fully trust it, since most wiki's they can lie and make BS, look up most wiki's containing "fextralife" and you'll understand why people hate them.
I also highly recommend for your own sake to take some time off internet politics, or the internet in general, I can see how emotional you are in my comment sections, to the point where people can't tell on, what are you trying to say.
@@engpol-1036 my dear the fact that a MCU *series* is not comic faithful is not surprising because him being what he was in the comics would be to be most polite controversial and in the current atmosphere it would resonate with the wrong crowd but do yourself a favor ok??keep coitizing the right things because if not the new administration will come to find you and please don't believe me that's how he got elected now no need to worry about me returning so I don't need a response.
@@engpol-1036 but it is core to his character and both sad and understandable that it's left out.
@@selena8472 Trump isn't gonna arrest you for bring cringe, calm thy titties...
this is really wierd
Your entire argument is based on the presumption that not only do „sinners“ not deserve any human rights, but also that hurting „sinners“ is an inherently good act.
Not only is it at the very least questionable whether „sinners“ in this show really are just rapists and murderers, as I doubt that those two populations would be enough to fill up the entirety of hell or be the only ones ending up here, it is also asinine to believe that hurting people just because they once did something terrible in the past is inherintly good.
Well first we need to understand what it takes for someone to hell and what gets someone to heaven in this universe. Is it easy to get into hell or hard? Unfortunately no one knows, somehow, not even the seraphim. Would it be fair if you went to go to heaven after being killed only for the people who killed you to be let into heaven after knowing there was an afterlife and redeeming themselves? It would be better if redemption allowed sinners to be reincarnated and try again instead of immediately going to heaven. If people knew for sure there was an afterlife than people would act more kindly to each other to be let into the good place. People who are truly good would be the ones to deserve being winners since they were kind without reward or knowing there would be one.
@@htwhtw-wy5vz Why does it matter if someone became good because of a certain incentive or not? If the end result is the same (that person being able to be deemed worthy of being in Heaven), why does the reasoning for becoming better matter? They've still become better
@@crypt5129If the reasoning behind someone becoming 'better' does matter because it speaks to the kind of person they actually are. If someone behaves well only if there is a carrot dangling in front of them aka the promise of heaven, then it raises the question if they are genuinely being good or just ACTING good out of their own self-interest. None of the sinners try to change in hell or be good people and instead indulge in their vices, do drugs and etc. If they hear that someone got redeemed and went to heaven, I bet a whole lot of them would start acting differently compared to when they thought, there was no reward. Would you trust a person who doesn't hurt other people just because of the system and them fearing punishment or the person who is genuinely kind?
I would be less inclined to argue if it wasn't for the fact we still do not have any information on how to get into heaven in this universe.
@htwhtw-wy5vz People act good because of certain incentives anyways (to look good, to feel like a good person, to make the other person feel like they owe them, to avoid previous guilt, etc etc), people don't become the way they are with no influences from the external or internal world. If the end result is a good person, why does it matter if they became good to go to Heaven? If they're just acting like they're good and plan to drop the act once they're in Heaven, then they're not good, but if they're acting good and stay like that, what is the functional difference between that and just being good? They engage in their vices in Hell because they're living torturous lives in literally hellish conditions with their vices advertised everywhere around them and they've been told there's no way out, I can't say I really blame them for not making the effort to try to get better on their own, it's literally Hell
@@crypt5129 I understand where your trying to come from, but it's simply oversimplifying human behaviors. Acting good and being good are not the same thing. Intent matters because it defines the difference between genuine change and superficial performance. If someone is doing something good just to score a ticket to Heaven, that's not them being good, they are just being opportunistic.
Look, I can agree that hell, even in this universe is an awful place. It still doesn't excuse indulging in their worst possible vices. There are many people who go through hard times without giving up on becoming better. Is hell brutal? Definitely. But can this universe's hell change for the better if the people in it changed compared to the original one where it was just punishment.
Yes, none of them knew about redemption or hope to get out which can make people fall into hopelessness, but not knowing doesn't let them completely off the hook. How you act in those kinds of times tells a lot of your character. People suffer through poverty, abuse or addiction but some still manage to find a way out and strive to become better even when there isn't an obvious reward to do so. If the people of this universe have just given up entirely, if they have just let the place turn them into their absolute worse selves without even TRYING to do anything to escape, well...
Hazbin Hotel is an... alright show, but it is rushed, and we don't have all the details about the universe. Personally, I enjoyed "The Good Place".
Wow. What a terribly thought-out video.
@ThisguySL thank you. there's a lot more depth to the series than is being made out.
@@selena8472 Is this "depth" in the same room with us?
Garbage video
How so
Genuine critique does make better art afterall
@ because I actually watched a show and I have seen a lot worse movies and shows that I regret watching
@Spinozilla109
Wait so because you've seen worse that makes the show good because it's not outright horrible..?
@ I seen some stuff I wish I never saw
@ horrible atrocities, like Batman and Robin Sharknado, Velma, and countless others
9:46 it's basic for hell