love that call about the gold valves, so true 🤣 Apart from all the great information in this vid the main thing I learned is that I won’t be pulling my suspension apart myself anytime soon 😳
Hey, Thank you for perfect explanation. Do you have any quick tip how to adjust my fork to fit more in C class kinda? :D I read about -cc oil so I am gonna try that but for example how many clicks which way to make it softer aka. "more comfy"? .. Thank you.
When I got my 2019 crf450 I was surprised how much difference each click on the forks made , more noticeable than previous bikes I have had with kyb sss , Id say stock the kyb is slightly better though , unless they come on a TM , but that could also be down to chassis like you mentioned .
The TM KYB uses exact same valving settings as 2006 yamahas. Difference in performance is "perception" and chassis. As to the clicks difference - data wise its just inaccurate. We hope to do a dyno video on showa/kyb with click changes shown in the future.
I often hear reviewers and mx media commenting that a fork is riding too low in the stroke on the “firmer” part of the damping, making it harsh. I don’t see how the damping would be any different lower in the stroke, other than the air spring and coil spring being more compressed. Is it accurate to say the damping is firmer deeper in the stroke?
Wonderful observation...this is exactly why I started this channel. NO!!!! Damping is the same top to bottom. It's speed sensitive ONLY. And ALL damping ALWAYS has been - the SSS fork is identical to all the other forks in this regard. The position sensitivity is the trapped air volume (adjusted by oil height) and there are some "bottoming" cones which I didn't point out but that add velocity squared damping in the last 3 inches of travel. If it gets "harsh" low in the stroke it's REALLY low in the stroke into the bottoming control (last 3d of travel). Often the "harshness" is fork isn't loading the shock enough to force the shock to move on a bump and the back drives the forks further into the bump. Oil height ONLY has influence on the last 3d of travel and is MOSTLY different in the last 1/10th if you changed the oil height. So if a fork is "way less harsh" with less oil - your really low in stroke - or are talking about landings and not bumps. I see this a lot - people describe a hard landing as "my bike is harsh" rather than saying only on hard landings it feels hard. On a shock the linkage creates position sensitivity by increasing shock velocity the deeper in the stroke you go effectively stiffening it.
Always interesting to see the inside details of suspension parts. Plenty of feedback from the press and actual '22 CRF250R owners about how terrible the forks feel off the showroom floor. Can you share your opinion on what Honda got wrong on the '22 CRF250R? Looking forward to the comparison video of KYB and Showa forks and shocks!
Hard to say...Most suspension feedback is actually chassis feedback. The fork is much softer than a stock kyb on yzf. Shock similar to yzf if not a tad softer. The KTM was always plagued for many with bad chassis feedback, they have always had good suspension - typically too soft in settings. KTM has progressively gone stiffer and "impression" has gotten softer or plusher. The only thing I see is a high oil height on the crf possibly making it not use full travel making people think it's stiff when it's really not. A savvy owner would drop oil height 50cc then work their way back to more oil as needed for bottoming control before "revalving" aka re shimming. This would likely show them the fork is rather soft - it's the same fork and basically same setting (within 3-4 percent) as kxf 450 - and the complaint when it came out was it was too soft... For offroad usage and a vet rider, I'd say soften it some and things be better, coupled with a softer shock. But it wont have the hard landing performance of yzf - which just has a plush chassis (getting stiffer but still plush)
My forks were twitchy until broke in. When it was time to change fluid, I had 178cc out of the 300 something that was supposed to be in there. Once it was corrected, it was great!
Any chance you have 2021 250F stock settings in your notes? I’ve been searching all over the internet for them and can’t seem to find anything. Trying to get rid of some harshness from my 22 fork and thought going towards the 21 setting might do the trick. Thanks a bunch! And great video, keep it up. Willing to pay for you notes too if TH-cam allows it!
In our opinion it is...but if you don't know how to revalve/shim your stock stuff - then the gold valves are allowing you to DIY their settings without any knowledge.
almost nothing. Just pretty outside coatings. The “secrets” are in settings - how stiff or soft, what oil height, what spring rate and spring preload, sometimes the teams will do some neat things with shims to create preloaded shim stacks or create ways to do speed sensitive bleed circuits. But the reality is - nothing is much diff than what you own. its just set up really well for their rider and chassis. And really really stiff vs what most people ride
I have some Showa forks off a 2007 rmz250 and the pressure spring in the cartridge is loose. Everything is installed correctly it’s just like the spring it’s not long enough, is this normal for back then? I noticed your pressure spring is tight on the newer Showa tc.
i just did fork seals and oil on my forks and when i got them back together, my rebound clicker will not move anymore, if you have any idea how to fix this it would be super helpful
what....whole bikes have improved stuff? Many test riders still consider the 2008 honda better chassis and stock bike than a current one. While I disagree with this, as the modern engine and efi is lightyears better, the reality is no one is reinventing the wheel. The bikes have 2 wheels, and 12 inches of travel - that hasn't changed in 20 years. And no magic physics exist make a 12 inche suspenion absorb a 13 inch bump without the tires leaving the ground. Suspension internals have largely stayed the same now since the orignal showa twin chamber, and are extremely similar to the 2006 kyb forks on yamahas. The onyl thing that has changed is vlaving stiffness (modern bikes are double as stiff as 2006) and frame characters...engine power and efi. As an engineer - I think they have gotten "better" but you could put a modern engine in a 2008 honda and win in pro racing
Hi, I have 2 sets of these forks both re valved by a reputable shop, I feel a very noticeable top out clunk going thru whoops, I'm told it's normal for these forks.
@@neal7x54 If the fork slams the stop it's "normal". but that depends on rebound setting and spring preload. It's very rare to have a fast enough rebound for a fork to top out that hard. Additionally they have a top out spring inside to prevent a hard clunk....Maybe it's somethign else you are feeling as a clunk. It would clunk in ALL situations, not just whoops
Suspension work is so satisfying!
love that call about the gold valves, so true 🤣 Apart from all the great information in this vid the main thing I learned is that I won’t be pulling my suspension apart myself anytime soon 😳
haha
Hey, Thank you for perfect explanation. Do you have any quick tip how to adjust my fork to fit more in C class kinda? :D I read about -cc oil so I am gonna try that but for example how many clicks which way to make it softer aka. "more comfy"? .. Thank you.
When I got my 2019 crf450 I was surprised how much difference each click on the forks made , more noticeable than previous bikes I have had with kyb sss , Id say stock the kyb is slightly better though , unless they come on a TM , but that could also be down to chassis like you mentioned .
The TM KYB uses exact same valving settings as 2006 yamahas. Difference in performance is "perception" and chassis. As to the clicks difference - data wise its just inaccurate. We hope to do a dyno video on showa/kyb with click changes shown in the future.
@@HPRaceDevelopment Data would be Great ...Like to hear your View on Soelva A Class Suspension?And what do you think of N10Z Suspension Kits?Thanks
Love the detail and transparency
thx
hopefully a lot more to come if people care to watch it!
I often hear reviewers and mx media commenting that a fork is riding too low in the stroke on the “firmer” part of the damping, making it harsh. I don’t see how the damping would be any different lower in the stroke, other than the air spring and coil spring being more compressed. Is it accurate to say the damping is firmer deeper in the stroke?
Wonderful observation...this is exactly why I started this channel. NO!!!! Damping is the same top to bottom. It's speed sensitive ONLY. And ALL damping ALWAYS has been - the SSS fork is identical to all the other forks in this regard. The position sensitivity is the trapped air volume (adjusted by oil height) and there are some "bottoming" cones which I didn't point out but that add velocity squared damping in the last 3 inches of travel. If it gets "harsh" low in the stroke it's REALLY low in the stroke into the bottoming control (last 3d of travel). Often the "harshness" is fork isn't loading the shock enough to force the shock to move on a bump and the back drives the forks further into the bump. Oil height ONLY has influence on the last 3d of travel and is MOSTLY different in the last 1/10th if you changed the oil height. So if a fork is "way less harsh" with less oil - your really low in stroke - or are talking about landings and not bumps. I see this a lot - people describe a hard landing as "my bike is harsh" rather than saying only on hard landings it feels hard. On a shock the linkage creates position sensitivity by increasing shock velocity the deeper in the stroke you go effectively stiffening it.
Always interesting to see the inside details of suspension parts. Plenty of feedback from the press and actual '22 CRF250R owners about how terrible the forks feel off the showroom floor. Can you share your opinion on what Honda got wrong on the '22 CRF250R? Looking forward to the comparison video of KYB and Showa forks and shocks!
Hard to say...Most suspension feedback is actually chassis feedback. The fork is much softer than a stock kyb on yzf. Shock similar to yzf if not a tad softer. The KTM was always plagued for many with bad chassis feedback, they have always had good suspension - typically too soft in settings. KTM has progressively gone stiffer and "impression" has gotten softer or plusher. The only thing I see is a high oil height on the crf possibly making it not use full travel making people think it's stiff when it's really not. A savvy owner would drop oil height 50cc then work their way back to more oil as needed for bottoming control before "revalving" aka re shimming. This would likely show them the fork is rather soft - it's the same fork and basically same setting (within 3-4 percent) as kxf 450 - and the complaint when it came out was it was too soft... For offroad usage and a vet rider, I'd say soften it some and things be better, coupled with a softer shock. But it wont have the hard landing performance of yzf - which just has a plush chassis (getting stiffer but still plush)
@@HPRaceDevelopment True
My forks were twitchy until broke in. When it was time to change fluid, I had 178cc out of the 300 something that was supposed to be in there. Once it was corrected, it was great!
Any chance you have 2021 250F stock settings in your notes? I’ve been searching all over the internet for them and can’t seem to find anything. Trying to get rid of some harshness from my 22 fork and thought going towards the 21 setting might do the trick. Thanks a bunch! And great video, keep it up. Willing to pay for you notes too if TH-cam allows it!
I have somewhere but off hand it’s just a softer mid valve with more float and a softer base valve.
did you find anything yet? Im searching too
So I was getting ready to put the gold valves in my 2022 Crf250r would that be a waste of money. Truly would love to hear you’re feedback thx
In our opinion it is...but if you don't know how to revalve/shim your stock stuff - then the gold valves are allowing you to DIY their settings without any knowledge.
Great info! What makes A-kit forks different?
almost nothing. Just pretty outside coatings. The “secrets” are in settings - how stiff or soft, what oil height, what spring rate and spring preload, sometimes the teams will do some neat things with shims to create preloaded shim stacks or create ways to do speed sensitive bleed circuits. But the reality is - nothing is much diff than what you own. its just set up really well for their rider and chassis. And really really stiff vs what most people ride
@@HPRaceDevelopment Good to know! Thanks!
I have some Showa forks off a 2007 rmz250 and the pressure spring in the cartridge is loose. Everything is installed correctly it’s just like the spring it’s not long enough, is this normal for back then? I noticed your pressure spring is tight on the newer Showa tc.
if all the seals are sealing - common failure on older showa - the spring is loose with no preload
i just did fork seals and oil on my forks and when i got them back together, my rebound clicker will not move anymore, if you have any idea how to fix this it would be super helpful
Might have to take that one to a sus shop or guy who knows showa. Could be a few things, hopefully didn't mess up the shaft or adjuster.
Whole bikes have improved stuff all over the last ten years.
what....whole bikes have improved stuff? Many test riders still consider the 2008 honda better chassis and stock bike than a current one. While I disagree with this, as the modern engine and efi is lightyears better, the reality is no one is reinventing the wheel. The bikes have 2 wheels, and 12 inches of travel - that hasn't changed in 20 years. And no magic physics exist make a 12 inche suspenion absorb a 13 inch bump without the tires leaving the ground. Suspension internals have largely stayed the same now since the orignal showa twin chamber, and are extremely similar to the 2006 kyb forks on yamahas. The onyl thing that has changed is vlaving stiffness (modern bikes are double as stiff as 2006) and frame characters...engine power and efi. As an engineer - I think they have gotten "better" but you could put a modern engine in a 2008 honda and win in pro racing
@@HPRaceDevelopment this is what I tell people when they ask why I think my 98 rm125 is waaayyyyyyy better than my 22 crf250... apart from engine.
Almost at 1k subs!
Any one else notice a top out clunk with these forks...
not really. Your stuff assembled well?
Hi, I have 2 sets of these forks both re valved by a reputable shop, I feel a very noticeable top out clunk going thru whoops, I'm told it's normal for these forks.
@@neal7x54 If the fork slams the stop it's "normal". but that depends on rebound setting and spring preload. It's very rare to have a fast enough rebound for a fork to top out that hard. Additionally they have a top out spring inside to prevent a hard clunk....Maybe it's somethign else you are feeling as a clunk. It would clunk in ALL situations, not just whoops
Yea it's an issue Ive never run into befor, I appreciate u taking the time to help.