Been binge watching for the last few days... speak truth. Probably end up with a TM or Sherco(for MX) and will task you with ironing out its quirks for '24.
tm in usa is a mess. Company had a split in italy into 2 divisions kart and mx, and now no official usa importer has been assigned. So - as much as I like them, id say stay away until thats back sorted out. Thanks for watching, appreciate it
Absolutly right. Stefan Everts, 10 times mx world champion told me that he always chose the shims and oil once for a hole season and just finetuned by clicks. Nothing more. For sand tracks as well as for hard tracks.
I agree. It’s definitely something you have to work with to find what you like. Two guys both 180lbs, same skill level may like a different feel, more rebound, a bit slack in the rear, or firmer in the rear, we are all different.
When a suspension guy says thats the best I always ask him what kind of food do I prefer and how do I like my massages. We all have preferences so don't tell me what I like.
I had a similar conversation with my suspension guy. I raced off road and was trying to get set up that could handle slow speed rock sections and fast whoops without compromise. He said “Well, dirt bikes aren’t trophy trucks.”
so, how they do it on trophy trucks? The only difference in suspension what I saw is additional passages opened during stroke allowing to tune dampening at different stroke position(but not shaft speed)
I've raced moto for 30 years and in the last 10 years started riding a lot of off-road. Same problem, how do I get the forks plush on the imbedded 3" rocks, slow speed bigger rocks and still handle the whoops. Fortunately I've done my own suspension since 08. I have found how to do it but no shop starts with good settings and few know how to tune for it.
@@inevespace They use what's called "Internal bypass" or "bypass" shocks. Hence the external tubes coming from the body. internal bypass uses twin tubes. all of them regulate oil flow through the bypass circuits with either a bleed hole, bending shims or both. The bypass circuits there are usually 3-4 of them and they bypass at different piston positions as well as speed sensitivity. the technology is too heavy and bulky to use on motorcycles and cost of trophy truck shocks can be $30,000-50,000 not to mention the time and labor to test and tune.
@@RichardsCranium It doesn't look heavy and bulky. Actually I think I saw such things in dirtbikes in 80s. I don't really know why they don't use position sensitive adjustment nowadays. Added: Quick glance to Race tech suspension bible book says that they can achieve required characteristics just with progressive linkage. But you can't use such linkages on cars and atv, so they have to make PDS build-in shocks. Actually enduro ktm's have PDS shocks, but in the past people complained about their performance. Don't know situation now.
Unless your suspension is done with Race Tech Gold Valves, they are just guessing. The Gold Valve is consistent, and stays the same for testing. Factory Connection isn't Showa, so whenever showa changes anything, FC has to start back from scratch. Race Tech replaces the entire valve and valving, thus giving you a consistent, and reliable platform. FC just shuffles some shims on a stock valve, that's it. There also is such thing as better and worse. Most stock suspension comes with Open Coil springs, which aren't consistent. That's whyyyyyyy you upgrade the bike with better springs. Oil makes a difference, seals make a difference, bushings make a difference, it literally all matters.
@@chadrides914 Thats pretty odd, Showa has pretty good internals. the one thing we have seen on the newer showa stuff, is the kashima coatings comes off the damper rods. They seemed to have fixed that now, but there was a year run during COVID where we saw the quality of some components decrease, but they picked it back up. I don't see why you would need new internals, or why you would would send them your suspension to click some clickers, just call them?
putting brass valves in changes absolutely nothing if any of the companies are guessing its without a doubt racetech, they are at almost no races but factory connection is at every big venue pro/am race from gncc to mx to worcs out west lol
Putting RT Valves keeps consistency. Every few years manufacturers change their valve, leaving most local shops, and even most big ones to completely lose all of their "research" and have to start from scratch again with their settings. Brass has nothing do with it, besides no need to pay for coating. Race Techs valve doesn't change, so it keeps consistency from year to year. Why do they also need to be at every single race in order to be good? that costs a lot of money, and there's nothing they will see at the track that they cant replicate on the dyno. RT has a $4 Million dollar R&D budget buddy, find me another company in the industry that is spending that kind of money on R&D. I work for them dude... @@lukekelly5115
@@dandlugolecki3408 you cant r&d your way out of lack luster set ups if you arent at the races listening to the racers, their product is geared towards diy guys and thats the only reason they are able to spend 4 million on r&d theyve banked on people being cheap and its really paid off lol
@@lukekelly5115 you have absolutely not a clue as to what you’re talking about. You think racers can describe more and be more accurate than a $2 million dyno? Name one thing track conditions will do to a bike, that a dyno can’t replicate? You’re clueless. Not even mentioning 90% of the motors done in MX and SX are machined by Race Tech, the only ones really aren’t are Pro Circuit. Race Tech is the only company with the above to do a 5 Angle valve job on a head. Their CNC machine is a motor printer. They have been paying the NHRAs top motor builder to come in a teach Andrew (head guy running the machine shop) everything he knows. But yeah, they are just for the average Joe, who has no idea what they are doing. No buddy, that’s you lol
It costs too much for the price people are willing to pay. Dirtbikes see 10m/s velocity on the suspension with thousands of pounds damping the dynos capable of testing that are 30-50 hp and 100-200k
Used to race pro, 450s - owned and road 125, 250f 250 2t and 450 currently dont ride mx anymore need a shoulder repair but own a honda and ktm250f that just sit here for testing
Great points! Curious if increasing high speed dampening on my rear shock might help on big hits like when coming up short or flat landings. I'm relatively light 160lbs and running a 2017 yz250f but my ankles swell up from hard hits. I know that I should clear everything nicely but it doesn't always happen and when I don't then I'm hobbling around for a week lol. I added oil to forks and they are fine but rear suspension bottoms hard. Also, does increasing high speed dampening affect low speed as well? It seemed to when I increased it.
@@JimG1964 the high speed adjuster does nothing on those shocks - so the only way is a revalve. If your issue is as you describe then more valving stiffness will help that area
My suspension guy stiffened up the spring rate for my wt and changed a little bit in the valve stack. Not only does the bike have more bottoming resistance, but he explained that its softer on the small bumps because im at the top of the stroke instead of the middle to bottom. By far the number one upgrade in my opinion. The bike jumps better, handles better, and is safer in OhSht situations
The valving works all the same top middle or bottom - somewhat a myth But if you are close to the last 1/4 of travel the bottoming locks (think hydrualic bump stop) and oil height/air spring ramp come into play. Ultimately your set up would be worse if used for slow single track than it was before - it is stiffer in general but the right spring goes a long way at helping hold the bike up for bigger riders - often just that is a huge help
What could be a realistic ballpark cost of a revalve, and then having to retweak it several more times in order to get it for a complaining rider? Is that a few hundred or a few thousand dollars?
You deserve more views than you're getting. Love what you're doing demystifying everything.
man thanks for that!
@@HPRaceDevelopment Great stuff. Yea FC tends to under valve substantially at least off road to the point of being dangerous.
Your awesome. Thanks for debunking all the suspension stuff. The shops all act like they are doing something no one else can. 😂
Been binge watching for the last few days... speak truth. Probably end up with a TM or Sherco(for MX) and will task you with ironing out its quirks for '24.
tm in usa is a mess. Company had a split in italy into 2 divisions kart and mx, and now no official usa importer has been assigned. So - as much as I like them, id say stay away until thats back sorted out.
Thanks for watching, appreciate it
Love all your content. I have learned so much. Would love to see more suspension videos in the future
I agree. If you are comfortable with suspension as you are with the dyno I'd like to see alot more
Are suspension dynos useful for suspension tuning?
Absolutly right. Stefan Everts, 10 times mx world champion told me that he always chose the shims and oil once for a hole season and just finetuned by clicks. Nothing more. For sand tracks as well as for hard tracks.
I agree. It’s definitely something you have to work with to find what you like. Two guys both 180lbs, same skill level may like a different feel, more rebound, a bit slack in the rear, or firmer in the rear, we are all different.
When a suspension guy says thats the best I always ask him what kind of food do I prefer and how do I like my massages. We all have preferences so don't tell me what I like.
I had a similar conversation with my suspension guy. I raced off road and was trying to get set up that could handle slow speed rock sections and fast whoops without compromise. He said “Well, dirt bikes aren’t trophy trucks.”
so, how they do it on trophy trucks? The only difference in suspension what I saw is additional passages opened during stroke allowing to tune dampening at different stroke position(but not shaft speed)
I've raced moto for 30 years and in the last 10 years started riding a lot of off-road. Same problem, how do I get the forks plush on the imbedded 3" rocks, slow speed bigger rocks and still handle the whoops. Fortunately I've done my own suspension since 08. I have found how to do it but no shop starts with good settings and few know how to tune for it.
@@inevespace They use what's called "Internal bypass" or "bypass" shocks. Hence the external tubes coming from the body. internal bypass uses twin tubes. all of them regulate oil flow through the bypass circuits with either a bleed hole, bending shims or both. The bypass circuits there are usually 3-4 of them and they bypass at different piston positions as well as speed sensitivity. the technology is too heavy and bulky to use on motorcycles and cost of trophy truck shocks can be $30,000-50,000 not to mention the time and labor to test and tune.
@@RichardsCranium It doesn't look heavy and bulky. Actually I think I saw such things in dirtbikes in 80s. I don't really know why they don't use position sensitive adjustment nowadays.
Added: Quick glance to Race tech suspension bible book says that they can achieve required characteristics just with progressive linkage. But you can't use such linkages on cars and atv, so they have to make PDS build-in shocks. Actually enduro ktm's have PDS shocks, but in the past people complained about their performance. Don't know situation now.
Unless your suspension is done with Race Tech Gold Valves, they are just guessing. The Gold Valve is consistent, and stays the same for testing. Factory Connection isn't Showa, so whenever showa changes anything, FC has to start back from scratch. Race Tech replaces the entire valve and valving, thus giving you a consistent, and reliable platform. FC just shuffles some shims on a stock valve, that's it. There also is such thing as better and worse. Most stock suspension comes with Open Coil springs, which aren't consistent. That's whyyyyyyy you upgrade the bike with better springs. Oil makes a difference, seals make a difference, bushings make a difference, it literally all matters.
@@chadrides914 Thats pretty odd, Showa has pretty good internals. the one thing we have seen on the newer showa stuff, is the kashima coatings comes off the damper rods. They seemed to have fixed that now, but there was a year run during COVID where we saw the quality of some components decrease, but they picked it back up. I don't see why you would need new internals, or why you would would send them your suspension to click some clickers, just call them?
putting brass valves in changes absolutely nothing if any of the companies are guessing its without a doubt racetech, they are at almost no races but factory connection is at every big venue pro/am race from gncc to mx to worcs out west lol
Putting RT Valves keeps consistency. Every few years manufacturers change their valve, leaving most local shops, and even most big ones to completely lose all of their "research" and have to start from scratch again with their settings. Brass has nothing do with it, besides no need to pay for coating. Race Techs valve doesn't change, so it keeps consistency from year to year. Why do they also need to be at every single race in order to be good? that costs a lot of money, and there's nothing they will see at the track that they cant replicate on the dyno. RT has a $4 Million dollar R&D budget buddy, find me another company in the industry that is spending that kind of money on R&D. I work for them dude... @@lukekelly5115
@@dandlugolecki3408 you cant r&d your way out of lack luster set ups if you arent at the races listening to the racers, their product is geared towards diy guys and thats the only reason they are able to spend 4 million on r&d theyve banked on people being cheap and its really paid off lol
@@lukekelly5115 you have absolutely not a clue as to what you’re talking about. You think racers can describe more and be more accurate than a $2 million dyno? Name one thing track conditions will do to a bike, that a dyno can’t replicate? You’re clueless. Not even mentioning 90% of the motors done in MX and SX are machined by Race Tech, the only ones really aren’t are Pro Circuit. Race Tech is the only company with the above to do a 5 Angle valve job on a head. Their CNC machine is a motor printer. They have been paying the NHRAs top motor builder to come in a teach Andrew (head guy running the machine shop) everything he knows. But yeah, they are just for the average Joe, who has no idea what they are doing. No buddy, that’s you lol
I got excited, I thought u we’re going to show how I were going to change the shim stack
He can’t it’s all a guess. Go in and do it yourself test and repeat.
Great video. Well said and makes total sense
Love the vids mate, keep them coming.
When I got my mountain bike shock it came with a dyno chart of its performance set for my weight, would be cool if suspension shops did that.
It costs too much for the price people are willing to pay. Dirtbikes see 10m/s velocity on the suspension with thousands of pounds damping
the dynos capable of testing that are 30-50 hp and 100-200k
What bike and kind of riding do you do Derek? You make sense and you sound like a rider
Used to race pro, 450s - owned and road 125, 250f 250 2t and 450
currently dont ride mx anymore need a shoulder repair but own a honda and ktm250f that just sit here for testing
Great points! Curious if increasing high speed dampening on my rear shock might help on big hits like when coming up short or flat landings. I'm relatively light 160lbs and running a 2017 yz250f but my ankles swell up from hard hits. I know that I should clear everything nicely but it doesn't always happen and when I don't then I'm hobbling around for a week lol. I added oil to forks and they are fine but rear suspension bottoms hard. Also, does increasing high speed dampening affect low speed as well? It seemed to when I increased it.
@@JimG1964 the high speed adjuster does nothing on those shocks - so the only way is a revalve. If your issue is as you describe then more valving stiffness will help that area
@@HPRaceDevelopment Thanks for your reply.
My suspension guy stiffened up the spring rate for my wt and changed a little bit in the valve stack. Not only does the bike have more bottoming resistance, but he explained that its softer on the small bumps because im at the top of the stroke instead of the middle to bottom.
By far the number one upgrade in my opinion. The bike jumps better, handles better, and is safer in OhSht situations
The valving works all the same top middle or bottom - somewhat a myth
But if you are close to the last 1/4 of travel the bottoming locks (think hydrualic bump stop) and oil height/air spring ramp come into play. Ultimately your set up would be worse if used for slow single track than it was before - it is stiffer in general
but the right spring goes a long way at helping hold the bike up for bigger riders - often just that is a huge help
If you know what you're doing, the suspension CAN be more plush on the smaller stuff & still be able to handle bigger hits better.
@@HPRaceDevelopment Valving is velocity dependent, Springs are position sensitive, friction is bad.
@@keithpeterson6108 Maybe in feel but not in valving big dog
@@nuthintoprove accurate statement, not sure the reason for the tag?
Like a Taylor fitting a suit.
The red shorts theory .....if the guy that wins the 5k is wearing red shorts , monday I'm buying me a pair of red shorts👌
Dropping truth bombs 😂
Do you do suspension set ups for woods riding?
We do!
Does it still mean that A kit suspension would always be better that stock or is it mostly has to do with rider preference.
A kit is basically just coatings added with a fancy name
@@kylechay1086 i thought it was that and other after markit parts kind of like the gold valves.
A kit inside looks identical to stock. you can the judge of if its worth it
@@HPRaceDevelopment i was wondering cause for example if were comparing the wp cone valves to the more stock wp suspension.
What could be a realistic ballpark cost of a revalve, and then having to retweak it several more times in order to get it for a complaining rider? Is that a few hundred or a few thousand dollars?