The difference between Open & Closed cartridge forks | Offroad Engineered
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ค. 2024
- There are 2 types of suspensions out there, closed cartridge (chamber) forks and open cartridge (chamber) forks.
In this video, I'll explain you why open cartridge forks started losing performance during SuperCross and Motocross races, what makes closed cartridge forks so good for racing and which one is better for each application!
Want to learn how to take full advantage of your suspensions adjustments? Check out our online courses:
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If you can, take a look at these Offroad Engineered episodes first:
Ep.1 - • How dirt bike suspensi...
Ep.2 - • How cartridge front fo...
0:00 Intro
0:19 Open-cartridge forks
1:02 Cavitation
3:36 Closed-cartridge forks
4:06 The closed cartridge
5:47 The bladder
6:10 Hysteresis
7:15 Spring Collar
7:49 "Closed" cartridge?
8:51 The cons of CC
9:24 How manufacturers choose one?
10:10 End
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#OpenCartridge #ClosedCartridge #ClosedChamber - กีฬา
With these high quality videos you already deserved half a million subscribers! 💪💪💪
Thank you so much Nuno!!! 💪💪
We'll get there! 😁
Um enorme abraço!
More of these suspension videos please. Excellent explanations!
Thank you!!! 🙌🙌
Good information mate, thanks!
Never ceases to amaze me what suspension engineers come up with. Simple parts like holes, shims, springs, seals and rods, get turned into magic all over the place inside the forks!
Couldn't agree with you more! 😁
Excellent explanation, detail, clarity, animations, science, humour. I have no doubt many other viewers agree, your time and effort to produce these outstanding tutorials that are truly educational and knowledge empowering are absolutely appreciated, thank you
Thank you thank you thank you!! 🙌🙌🙏🙏
Good stuff!
In my experience open cartridge is fine for most of us off road types and it is simpler and easier for an owner to service. Open cartridge feels plusher" off road in the rocks, hack and roots than closed. I don't race MX, and being an average Joe, I am simply not worthy as a rider of closed cartridge forks. Open for me 😆
REALLY good, this is the first explanation of the different forks that covers the technical reasons for one or the other. Thank you for taking time to put this all together and help out a lot of riders.
This is honestly one of the best technical motocross related channels on TH-cam! Your explanations are simple enough that most people can understand, but you also provide lots of details for those who wish do dive deeper into the concepts.
Thank you so so much! I really appreciate the comment! 💪😄
This was a great video! Awesome work and thanks for taking the time to do this video. It helped me in the buying process of a dual sport Beta 500 rr-s and evaluating my rider level/ intended use for the bike.
Thank you so much Ryan and I'm really glad I could help! 😄🙌
Amazed by how well you explain all these things! Keep up the good work!!
Thank you so much Tom! I really appreciate 😄 you have a lot more to watch, enjoy 🙌
Man, i've been trying to explain the difference between open and closed chamber forks to my buddies for a while. You've explained it perfectly. Thanks! Now i'll just send this video to them :D
I'm glad I could help!! Thank you for sharing! 😁💪
Great explanation, amazing video,congratulations !
Thank you so much! 😀💪 I really appreciate it 👌😊
Very well explained and good quality video, well done!!!
Thank you so much Felix! I really appreciate it😁💪
Absolutely perfect! Thank you. Best explanation I have seen.
Thank you for watching, I appreciate it! 💪
Simply brilliant explanations and graphics. Nicely done.
Thank you so much!!! 🙌💪
Excellent video. Thank you so much for the detailed information!
thank you for watching! 😁💪
I enjoyed the video very much! I have a KDX200 which has the 93-94 inverted forks, which appear to be the open cartridge type. It’s good to know that they’re perfectly fine for off road use. In addition, I like the simplicity of them.
I was uneducated as to the difference between open and closed, but thanks to you, I’m now educated!
Great job! Thanks!
I'm so happy to hear that!!! Sir, you made my day 🙌
For offroad use, it's more than enough, specially if you don't race competitively.👌
@@StepstoPodium
Subscribed! I assume you’re an engineer. You certainly understand the finer points of the fluid dynamics involved. I’m not an engineer, and don’t understand as much as you do, but I understand enough to appreciate your knowledge!
Great job!
Thank you so much! And yes, I am a mechanical engineer 💪 nonetheless, Im an advocate that when you know what you are talking about, you can explain anything to anyone, it's just a matter of putting things into the right perspective, and if you tell me I managed that, I'll have feeling of job well done 😁
@@StepstoPodium
lmao! A mechanical engineer! Of course! My buddy across the street from me is a mechanical engineer too! And he rides CR500s! You’d get along great with him!
You’re attitude towards teaching is refreshing. The academics are very important, but the principles involved can be conveyed without the arduous math.
I wish I knew the math, but you do a great of explaining things in practical terms. 👍
Stop it! You're making me blush 😂 I'm stoked to hear that, I really appreciate you saying that. It makes all the hours spent so much more worth it 🙌🙌
I love your dirt bike engineering vids! Keep up the good work! Also looking forward to the rest of the ktm story
thank you so much man! I really appreciate it 😁💪
You have no idea how eagered I am to release those videos about the ktm story! If everything plays out as it is scheduled, next week I'm having a couple of interviews with ktm staff to add to the storyline! They were super open about contributing for the series but there's no way around corporate timelines. .. everything takes a long time to organise and to pull the trigger 😅 I'm hoping next couple of weeks I'll release something 😊
This video was exactly what I was looking for! Great explaination, thankyou!
Thank you for watching and glad I could help! 😄
Dang...good video man. The animations make it pretty legit n helped me understand.
Thank you so much Ian! Glad I could help you understand this 😊👊
Packed full of information! I learned the origin of the compound work "stiction" here. Static + Friction = Stiction Viola!
🙌🙌🙌
Thank you for showing the pro/s and con/s because up to now, I hadn’t considered it and they are considerable things to think about before changing anything.
Glad I could help and thank you for watching! 😄
Thank you so much for all this info! Great video. Very informative.
thank you for watching 😁💪
Great video, super clear explanation. thanks!
Thank you! Glad I could help 🙂
Very clear explanation - thanks!
thank you for watching! 😁
Sooooooo good these videos help me out so much
I'm glad to hear that! 😄
Hot damn! I have rebuilt my CC forks myself for years without really understanding how they work. This is incredible!
Now you know! 😄
I bet you'll be anticipating your nect fork rebuild just to take a look at everything with new knowledgeable eyes 😏😁
#knowledgeispower 💪
Good info I was curious on what the difference was
Excellent explanation!
Thank you !! 🙌
Awesome explain dude! Good jog!
Thank you! I appreciate it! 😀
really excellent work!
Thank yoooouuuu!!!!
i learn so much from you dude!
Thank you! Im really happy to know that ! 😄🙌
Thank you for that great explination!
Thank you!!!
Thanks for the video bro
Thank you for watching!
Thank you so much for your Videos regarding Suspension! In my Opinion the best Channel to understand this difficult Topic a bit better. And I just bought a WP XPLOR Pro 6500 closed Cartridge Kit for my 701 because of this Video, my Wife hates you
Say sorry to your wife for me 😅🤣🤣
Thank you so much for the nice words! Enjoy 💪
Take a look at our website in case your interested in learning further how to take full advantage of that new cartridge kit 😃
Great video!
Thank you! 😊💪
Love your content bro. Genius ❤
Thank you!!! 🙌😄
Brilliant video
Thank you!! 🙌
Great video - thanks
thank you for watching 😊
Vídeo muito bom. Venho aprendendo muito com os Vídeos!
Obrigado Junior! Fico muito contente! 😄
Another gem.👏👏👏👏🍻
thank you!! 😁😁💪💪
èpá....fantástico Steps, parabéns, não tenho mais nada a dizer :)
😶😍 e eu não tenho agradecimento melhor do que isso! Muito obrigado! Se tiveres alguma duvida sobre o vídeo, não hesites em perguntar! 😁
This is a great video ! perfectly explained !
I appreciate it! 💪Thank you for watching!🙏
@@StepstoPodium yeah really nice!, are you working on your own suspension?
And what about the kyb akit we can see ? is that for your new beta ?
@@braenzlig426 I'm starting to work with them! With covid and such, I haven't had the chance to ride the new bike and have solid feedback to work with but as soon as things get better, I'm going to!
Those are not an A-kit, it's a regular KYB closed cartridge from a KYB fork. To be honest, you cant go wrong with KYB... zf and wp are known to have inherited problems. Kyb is the only one that seems to have a general consensus on its perfornance
@@StepstoPodium yeah kyb is maybe the best in the buisness, that was the reason for me to buy a newer generation gasgas. i dont really like the sachs/zf, they often have problems with the outer tube hardcoating that is sometimes wearing really bad. performance for hard enduro on wp and sachs is okay, and quality on wp in my experience is the best on the suspension market. but they started saving money on suspension production with the xplor stuff, thats why i dont really like it. -16 wp has awesome performance and really good tunability
Totally agree with that! Wp for technical riding is probably the best stock form, but when you start riding faster, they start to give in...
Great video and well explained. Can you explain the mid valve as well and the difference on shim stacks? Thanks
Yes I can, and yes I will! They are going to be the next few Offroad Engineered videos coming out 😊
Awesome video. Suscribed
Thank you!! 🙌💪
Vídeo incrível, quem sabe sabe 😉🔥
Muito obrigado Rafa! 😁💪 grande abraço!
Bom dia, mais um vídeo impecável, muito bom 👌👌👌.
Fico a aguardar, pelo vídeo, com os pormenores da magia com as válvulas e lâminas para estas suspensões😜😜
Continuação de excelente trabalho. 👋👋👋
Olá Tony! Muito obrigado!!! 😁
Em breveeee! Ainda falta um ou outro antes desse mas já está preparado 😆
Eres un maquina y gracias x tu ayuda
Gracias!!! 😄😄
these vids are so good.
Thank you!! 🙌
Your videos are great. Super clear explanations and great advice. I have tried to work out what the performance difference is between open and closed and struggled to find answers, Now I know. Thanks.
When it comes to faster cornering and relatability in performance do you think closed is the way to go? Like say a super moto setup.
you're welcome and I really appreciate the good word! Thank you! 😊
Honestly, for road use, an open cartridge should be more than enough, imo. the closed cartridge technology only came around to cope with the stresses from Moto/supercross. Enduro and off road in general, benefited afterwards since it got "cheaper" compared to the early beginings
@@StepstoPodium SO well serviced open setups will give you pretty much the same repeatability and handling unless you a beating it with big jumps.
Sounds good and cheaper. Nice.
Now just need to choose springs and oils to dial it in and not of that annoying gas filling.
exactly! 😁 I'm glad I could help and if you have any other questions, don't hesitate in reaching out 😊
Good Job 👍👍👍
Many many thanks!!💪
Thanks for this explanation. What is the difference for the cone valve shocks?
Im working at the moment to partner up with WP to explain on the channel how their products work 💪
I do MX suspension and I think these are great videos
Thank you so much for that! I really hope it helps even for experienced professional 💪💪🙌
Great vid. Can you help me understand why installing a rising rate spring on the cartridge piston would increase small bump sensitivity and help with bottoming resistance?
Hey Ash!
Sorry to not have replied to this comment. It missed me!
So, assuming that the rising rate spring starts off with a lower rate than the stock one, on the initial part of compressed stroke, the piston will apply fairly little hidraulic preload, allowing the forks to more easily compress without feeling that "harshness" cc forks are know for, and once the forks start compressing deeper, the hidraulic preload will increase exponentially since it isn't a linear rate as the stock one, providing more hidraulic preload and as a consequence, resistance to compression.
Sorry for the lateness but better than never! 😅🙌🙏
I finally understand a closed cartridge fork. Thank you! Now, what makes yamaha forks speed sensitive?
All hydraulic damping systems (cartridges) are speed sensitive - It's kind of a redundant name to be honest xD
do you have a video on how to service them?or oil change
Nop, but you have several videos online about it 👌
Thanks
🙌🙌
I enjoyed the video, is there a way to modify the damping ability or the length of the trip?
Revalving is usually an option! What do you mean with length of the trip?
@@StepstoPodium It is the distance between the highest point of elevation and the lowest point of compression that varies with the weight of the occupant
It shouldn't change if you install the right spring rate
I just bought a 2024 KTM 300 xcw now with closed cartridge forks and cant seem to get the full stroke, probably 3-4in from bottoming. Is there an easy way to take out a little oil
You showed me how to take everything apart. Could you show how to take the top cap off.
Para quando um curso presencial ou online sobre suspençoes?
Não desminto que algo do género não me passou pela cabeça mas ainda me falta algum estudo para poder passar conhecimento desse modo. Mas não excluo essa opção 😉
mate if u have free time i definetly want to see the bigest diferense between psf1 and sss many ask on sites and there is almost none video explained so good as u can :)
The goal is to have videos about everything! Its a matter of time 😉 perhaps when Im full time on this, Ill be able to make them more frequently! These videos take a looooot of time to make, around 100 hours on average, so it takes time...
@@StepstoPodium i know mate take your time we have notification on when u post it 😁i just addressed it because many keep asking the benefits of factory suspension psf1 vs normal sss and no-one explained it good on TH-cam
Its wild how closed systems dont seem that much more complex or expensive to produce, but are 2-3 times the cost of open systems.
True indeed! 👌
Nice
Thank you!
On closed chamber forks, does the outer chamber fluid volume really matter that much? It’s just lubricant at this point and provides no damping. Or does it?
It not only provides lubrication, but also provides damping and bottoming resistance
@@StepstoPodium I think I get it now. The oil just provides lubricant. But, because it takes up space and is essentially sealed in the forks. the air gets compressed when the forks compress, and that resistance creates more bottoming resistance.
Exactly!! Also, the way some spring perches are made, can actually provide some damping the same way the orifices on a piston provides damping.
I have question if the suspension is exact the same outside can i change the inside to close cartridge suspension?
You can! Check out the link from technical touch in thr description below 😉
@@StepstoPodium thanks for reply brother keep posting videos like this i try improve my sss and i love your help keep the good work
Excelente trabalho!! Tenho uma dúvida em relação à minha suspensão KYB, faz um ligeiro assobio, pensei que fosse do disco do travão da frente mas parece mesmo da suspensão.
Abraço
Muito obrigado! 🙌
De facto não é normal isso. Teria que desmontar para conseguir perceber do que é 😛
@@StepstoPodium não tenho carrinha para a transportar, é estranho pois a mota é nova. Tenho sempre atenção em desapertar os purgadores...
Faz isso sempre com a mota no cavalete 💪
@@StepstoPodium tenho feito mal então 😅 não tenho um cavalete. Deve chegar esta semana. É a minha primeira mota e não consegui comprar logo tudo de uma vez. Será que este "assobio" tem a ver com não ter a mota no cavalete e desapertar os purgadores?
Não te consigo dizer sem ver as suspensões 😬
Can I make 4CS fork to OC? Without using race tech parts for example?
No idea 😬from what I have been researching, the 4CS are the worst recent suspensions available on the market If I were you, I would find some other forks instead of wasting money on the 4CS 😅
@@StepstoPodium yeah,I think my old 2010 exc 300 OC forks are much better for what I'm doing, Romaniacs style.
Can I use some tuning parts to make 4cs forks to work but is too expensive for a B class rider.
P.S nice and clear info on your chanel! Big like!
Definitely! Those were actually quite good, don't know why they discontinued those... go figure.
Maybe try tuning the shim stacks?(i have a video explaining that)
Thank you so much! Im glad I could help somehow 😊
Gran video explicativo 👍
Entendería mejor si fuese en español😁
muchas gracias Juan! 😁 Lo Sé y lo entiendo, Pero como deves imaginar, no és possible agradar a todos 😅😅
@@StepstoPodium lo comprendo, por cierto iba ir a la carrera de Paredes pero la cancelaron como era de esperar, para ti que carrera de las portuguesas es la más difícil?
Lagares és la más difícil claro, pero de las carreras del PHES creo que la Gondomar Extreme és la más dura!
4:33 -- Is that free piston locked in place with no movement OR is there slack in this piston, allowing the piston to move BEFORE the spring comes into play.
It's just a diagram, the piston doesn't have any play 🙂
@@StepstoPodium I must have something wrong on mine because my piston moves 1\4 or so before the spring comes into play ...
It may depend on the brand, but either way when the piston is installed in the cartridge, the oil will force it upwards, eliminating any play
@@StepstoPodium Ok and thanks ... Are you the guy in the video with the green shirt answering my questions? Either way, thanks for the help and the videos .. ESP this one ...I had no idea what the differences actually were but having both types, as you said, I can't actually tell the difference with my riding ..
Yes, I am, although I'm not using the green shirt right now 😂
Glad I could help!
Converting my stock WP KTM 500 to closed, I’ll let you know if a mere mortal sees the expected improvement. LOL thanks for the explanation....
Looking forward for it!
Can you please explain to me why bladders are not as reliable as piston and spring 🙏
A bladder is a piece of rubber which is pressurised. The possibilities of failure are essentially all around the area of the rubber besides the areas of contact between the bladder and cartridge, so quite big.
Springs on the other hand are probably one of the most reliable systems ever produced in engineering, so it's hard to go wrong with that and what provides the seal is also a really well known part - a simple O-RING, so the area of failure is a lot smaller compared to the bladder. 💪
Wait, how does the oil pressure drop on compression of the forks? Seems like it would increase
It increases on one side of the piston and decreases on the other side
I cant stop but hear the count from sesame's street
Ta sumido amigo ✌
💪💪💪💪💪
show demais
🙌💪💪😄
in ita?
1000 likes 👍
🇧🇷🤘🤘👏👏
Now I know-thank you...open for me.
🙌🙌🙌🙏
Showa are completly close, for the oser the real name is twin cartridge
My brain hurts. 😄
Knowledge hurts when it's getting assimilated 😁🤣
@@StepstoPodium At least now I know my WR250F has the best forks around. 🤪😉
Eheh glad to know! 😄
Brain hurts
😂😂😂
I have both and sorry but unless you are a local-hero or local-expert, you probably will not know the difference .. Actually PROs are excluded here.
Agree with you on that! 🙌
You showed me how to take everything apart. Could you show how to take the top cap off.