seriously,i mean this theory has kinda sense but come on maybe there is a mystery in dhawan s Master s jealousy(apart from the doctor being the TC )that made the master more insane that before and the answer is in big finish. With the lumiat
It’s as simple as the drum beat wasn’t written in classic who. The musical notation of the relevant part of the theme tune is quaver, quaver quaver dotted crotchet twice per bar which fits a 4/4 time signature so it doesn’t make a pair of heart beats anyway which would have 2 regular beats each. It’s da-da-da dummm, da-da-da dummm, da-da-da dummm, da-da de-da, da-da-da dumm and so on it’s clearly not da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da. So it’s poor writing by someone failing to ret-con the theme tune and 2 hearts.
With the drumbeat, my theory is that it was always in the Master's subconsious, but not prominent. But the War Master using the Chameleon Arch was the thing that brought it to the front of Yana's mind, then when he opened it, it was there in his mind with Simm's Master
Perhaps also, having the drumbeat all his life led the Master to believe it was a normal thing everyone had, so maybe when he became Yana he started to notice that it was abnormal because the drums would only come back when he got lost in his subconscious or started to remember.
When 'Yana' was remembering the Master in Utopia you can here Roger Delgado from one of his stories (I can't remember which, possibly the Daemons) as well as Ainley's laugh which always implied that they were after.
Although I like this theory, it is clearly stated that the NewWho Masters come after the Classic Masters. In “The Sound of Drums” the Master states that he was resurrected by the Time Lords to be the perfect warrior for the Time War. If the Saxon Master is before Roger Delgado’s Master than there would be no point in time for the Master to be dead in order to be resurrected unless you create some head canon event just to so your theory can be right. Also the War Master as Professor Yana hears the voices of the Classic Masters when he is remembering who he is. Doctor Who expanded media specifically confirms the NewWho Master existing after the Classic Masters in the Big Finish Audio Dramas. The Audio Dramas even confirm Dhawan’s Master is after Missy, which I personally hate. It is implied in “The End of Time” that drumming got worse since the Master was the closest in his timeline to activating the beacon to bring back the timelords. Maybe the Classic Masters aren’t as crazy due to the drumbeat being much less intense. Each Classic Master seems to get more crazy from Delgado onward so that seems like the best explanation.
Ok, I'll grant you this is an interesting theory, the tv series itself disproves it. With Yana's fob watch we clearly hear the voices of the Delgado and Tremas incarnations before he opens it, meaning the Yana and Saxon incarnations are post classic era.
The master does have a definitive timeline and all the onscreen masters are in order, but there's gaps in between. Delgado is 12 Beavers is 13 Ainley is 14 if you want to keep things simple but technically still 13 if you want to be pedantic. The guy at the beginning of the TV movie is 15 (it's confirmed not to be Ainley's incarnation) Roberts is 16 Then he's resurrected and given a new regeneration cycle. MacQueen is 17 Jacobi is 18 Simm is 19 Gomez is 20 Then there's the Luminat who was originally 21 before 19 killed 20, but their timeline was erased by this so instead we got Dwann as 21. Most of this is either confirmed or can be deciphered via Big Finish audios, as thery have multiple multi master stories like Masterful that full on just tell you the order.
The Lumiat wasnt erased (that was only one possible timeline)... after the Lumiat gut killed, she felt angry about her "good" choises and turned unhinged... however there are only implication that she would become Dhawan, since her regeneration was recorded before Dhawan got the role. It fits because her regeneration and Dhawans first episde aired around the same time. But still, since we have no regeneration for him, While TARDIS wiki lists him after the Lumiat, Dhawan could still fit betwen Roberts and MacQueen, i guess time will tell... BTW SPOILERS... Masterfull gave us two of Missys best dilouge ever. 1. The other Masters asked who the Lumiat is and Missy replied "A scene-stealing addition" 2. Missy points to the War-Master saying "Thats because the Universe was blown up, by Gandalfs husband over there!" I laught so hard when she said that. Such a nice joke about Derek Jakobi and Ian McKellen playing a old married couple in their sitcom Vicious.
I honestly don't like the idea of the Master's redemption arc, when he was Missy, is rendered pointless just so we can keep onscreen incarnations of the Master one after another in the incarnation list. If that's how things are going to be done, then I'd rather Missy have never gotten her redemption arc at all.
All this just because RTD couldn't be bothered to make sense. He easily could have made it so that the drumbeat was inserted only during the Master's resurrection during the Time War. Then all this could have been avoided. Also, my theory is that the Master's do indeed occur in the order we see them, but "Saxon" saw Missy and decided to regenerate into someone else (we did see that he and other Time Lords can usually control their regenerations, unlike the Doctor). Making Missy a temporal anomaly that both happened and didn't happen.
@@Soron661Well, yeah. In the theory described above, she was orphaned from the timeline because Saxon purposely avoided becoming her. It would also explain Dhawan's Master because Saxon claimed to kill her in such a way that that she couldn't regenerate.
I mean, you could easily say the Time War made the drums an in-universe retcon. Some Big Finish stories play with the idea that Classic stories were impacted by the war, like how the Day Of the Daleks used to not involve Ogrons. If RTD revealed the discrepencies with the drums are Time War-related it would underline how insidious the conflict's effect of history was
@@michaelburke4048 The John Simm Master only didn't remember being on the colony ship because he crossed his future timeline. It's the same reason why the 10th and War Doctors didn't remember the events of the 50th anniversary. He still becomes Missy but only she can remember because she's the more recent incarnation between the 2 of them.
I do like this theory, but there’s 1 thing that disproves it: when the Simms Master questions if he’ll turn into her in his next life, Missy tells him it’s all a bit hazy. If Missy is at the end of the timeline, she should remember the Spy Master and Classic Masters being after Simm, but she doesn’t, because those are both their past, so the theory can’t really work given the context of the show. And if she is the end, why doesn’t she remember nuking Gallifrey?
Thanks for confirming my theory. I've always thought that Dewan's Master Came before Missy even though a lot of people were up in arms when he first appeared saying that he negated the whole Missy Redeption Arc even though it was never confirmed that he came after her. People just assumed he did; which was a shame because there was no evidence that he would have come after her. And you just confirmed that he didn't.
Theres actually a big finish audio which confirms Dewan comes after Missy. It does also explain why they regressed tho, its just disappointing that there was no on screen explanation
the Missy being the end of the masters timeline makes so much sense to me and Sacha Dhawan being after her just ruins that beautiful ending to her story , in my theory ( only focusing on Simm , Dhawan and Gomez Simm meets missy in the S10 finale , shoots her after she stabs him , Regen's into Dhawan , whos like a similar nuts/Evil to Simms, had just met his Female counterpart and mentioned in the story Prior is the future going to be all girl , only for him to directly bump into the 13th Doctor, keeps the habit Simm made of siding with the Cybermen and using them , starts to ware Purple and use The TARDIS he took back when he was Simm , Gets trapped in the tooth and Becomes Missy or Bi Generates to Missy , either way ! , Subconsciously becoming Female thanks to meeting 13 , remember his last words to her before changing back , was don't let me go back to being me , and if i cant be the doctor , neither can you , something along those lines, anyways regens to missy , missy who is also cooky wacky at first , Still wares purple and teams with the cybermen, meets 12 , her TARDIS get taken by unit off screen in S8 giving her the vortex manipulator in S9 , turns good through influence of the Doctor and well the S10 finale happens and she dies knowing she sided with the Doctor, This theory cuts out and doesn't include any BF or expanded media logic to it , but makes sense to me :D apologize for bad grammar XD
When it comes to the masters drum beat, I think it was not prevalent in classic who because the end of time was super far away, but with simms master, it was getting louder and louder as end of time approached, the classic who master probably heard it, but it was super faint that they subconsciously unheard it like how you can't hear your own heartbeat
I've just started watching 19th season of Classic Who, which starts with Master's story. Since this story is one out of the series of stories about Master's regeneration which comes after his final one, I was interested in how many regenerations he had and also about him overall. So that video is just what I needed
MY THEORIES ABOUT (THE-MASTER’S) REFORMATION & FIRST NEW FACE AFTERWARDS: First theory; I theorize that The-Master might have a genuine fan, who is responsible for picking up the gold tooth, that was his imprisoned form. I also theorize this fan is a young lady, who pretended to be a member of the agency. To add I imagine she has done studies about magic, about theorized highly advanced scientific technology, and she had stolen some alien technology too. In addition I imagine that when The-Master, finally has his body reformed, before his first new face, his last face temporarily appears, and then a few minutes later his new face takes shape. Plus to add I theorize The-Master’s new face, is of a young man who died seven years ago, that his young lady fan knew, and she secretly had a crush on him. My 2nd. set of theories; I theorize that The-Master, meets The-Doctor again, on a day when an ancient enemy suddenly appears, and I imagine that enemy appears about eight months later. That is once The-Doctor reappeared, after returning from being on an adventure, with his new companion for those eight months. I also theorize, the slight possibility, that The-Master, he develops a genuine interest in his fan, and he has genuine respect for her as well. And so I theorize The-Master, decides that the young woman, will become his very first companion, and she will be his partner, in trying to ruin The-Doctor’s happiness.
where the hand of Missy grabbing the edge of the mirror in the 50th anniversary special in the black archive fit in your timeline?? You dont mention it vocally, i listedned to the video here, and watched when we reached missy, no show of that hand, only the hand picking up the master's gold tooth in the giggle.
I think the Master's timeline can be completely inconsistent, because the Master travels in time and doesn't obey the rules of time-travel, so the Masters can produce inconsistent timelines for themselves. For example, the Master can travel back in time and prevent the regeneration into their current version, leaving two different Master lineages, one of whom might permanently die, and so on.
My head cannon is John Simm, then Sacha Dhawan, then Missy. All due to him being similar levels of insane between Simms & Dhawan & starting as insane when Missy arrives before starting to repent. It seemed wrong for the master to go from Missy to then loose all that growth to become Dhawan's master. I like your theory, though.
This kinda contradicts the time lock of the time war, because the classic master interacted with the time lords, which the time lock would have made impossible, if he had already gone through the time war
Somehow I think we aren't even supposed to understand the Master's timeline. As a character who doesn't abide to any rule and has a rather dubious moral compass, the Master has likely intertwined his own time stream so weirdly, combining this with knowledge taken from the Matrix, that most timeline theories could probably apply with a large extent of accuracy. I think the Master himself/herself has lost track of the point in life they're at. They probably know a lot of their own future prematurely which is likely what led the "Saxon" Master to meet "Missy" and kill her. tl;dr - theories are cool but we will never know for sure and it's okay that we don't.
For a change I'd love to see a new Master actually being from one of the gaps in his timeline. Have a Pre-Delgado Master that's not fully minted in the whole evil thing fight the 16th Doctor and be an audience surrogate for those confused with the massive continuity because that incarnation was doing some off-screen stuff with 2
Great theory it's a very interesting take. My personal problem with it comes down simply to the dematerialization circuit. When Missy and the Master are talking Missy drills into her previous incarnation's head to always carry a spare dematerialization circuit which leads to her having one in her pocket. If the Simm Master is then going to go on to be Delgado master, then why in the Terror of the Autons, when the Master and the Doctor are facing off, does the Master seem worried with the Doctor having his dematerialization circuit? He would presumably would have another one and wouldn't think twice about shooting the Doctor and destroying his circuit, however in the episode it seems that he doesn't have a spare. Also I'm thinking about the size of the props themselves. The classic series props are bigger than the ones in the new series. In the Terror of the Autons both the Doctors type 1 and the Masters type 2 dematerialization circuits are the same size meaning that while it is newer than the Doctors its not that much newer, but the one that Missy has is much smaller. This makes me think that the Tardis the Master has in The Doctor Falls is newer than the one in the Terror of the Autons, because presumably as the technology advanced on Gallifrey the circuit got smaller so when the Master goes back to the end of the Time War he steals a newer Tardis than the one seen in Terror of the Autons. I understand that the differing sizes in props are likely down to production but hey I like coming up with these theories myself.
Yknow Missy being the last Master is the only thing that makes sense. BUT then again, Chibnall was never big on making sense - so while i assume Chib wanted Spymaster to be the newest one, luckily he never confirmed it so RTDcan still save it
Missy was the best master in my opinion and what did they do they completely removed every min of character development with the master after her and i hate this so much🫥
Honestly it's wild to me how so few Doctor Who fans don't really think about putting the Doctor Who timeline in a non-linear order, the show is about time travel isn't it?! Why would The Masters be in a linear order? Yet no one really thinks about it. I applaud you sir!
While it is about time travel the classic show has gone out of its way a couple of times to point out that "the present" of Gallifreyan time is kept as a constant so that they don't mess with their own history and that the Doctor and Master generally meet each other in the correct order when only one version of either of them is involved.
Nope if you knew the lore you would know and understand that the Master after falling into the Eye of Harmony was resurrected by the Timelords to fight in the Time War but he didn't want to fight and ran to the end of the universe regenerates into a young boy and has his Timelord memories put inside his fob watch The reason the drums were not in the classic Masters head is because simply it wasn't and that is because Gallifrey wasn't locked away from everyone in its own pocket universe it was destroyed by the War Doctor but now that has changed
but...gallifrey wasnt locked in a pocket universe until after the time war? and the time lords' plans to use the master to escape only occurred in the final days of the time war? but please, do tell me more about how i'm the one who doesn't know the lore 🙄
But if Missy was the final version of the Master, she should have recognised her former self when she first met the John Simm Master and had his memories of him shooting her.
Or, or... hear me out... it's literally just the order we see The Master in. Like it's just that. Officially. The Master's timeline hasn't been a mystery in years. Child -> Incarnations 1-11 -> Delgado -> Pratt/Beevers -> Ainley -> Bodyhopping -> Roberts -> (more shenanigans in the expanded material) -> resurrected for the Time War (Alex Macqueen) -> (unknown if there's a gap here) -> Jacobi -> Simm -> (unknown if there's a gap here) -> Gomez -> (The Lumiat) -> Dhawan It's simple, it's sensical, and it's already baked into the flow of the show, just like The Doctor's incarnations. We follow both of them in order. Plus there are some things in the theory that just don't really make sense. Like how "The Master doesn't have the drumbeat in Classic Who, therefore those incarnations must come after". That's because it was written in New Who??? It's a small retcon. Just because The Master never talked about the drumbeat in Classic Who doesn't mean it wasn't there. Also Dhawan "knowing about the four knocks" is because it's literally just their code. It's the Time Lord heartbeat. That's why the Time Lords chose that as the drumbeat for The Master as well.
that's the "fuck it, i'm lazy and don't want to even consider temporal reasons for things cause time travel confuses me" way of seeing things. so many people are like that, unfortunately, which is why many people don't like time travel in general. I do love chronological order, but sometimes... it just ruins things. The way you see the Master's timeline makes Missy having a redemption arc completely pointless. Also, not everyone pays attention to the expanded media as its very rarely ever confirmed as canon.
@@Soron661 It's not lazy. At least not from me personally. I love temporal mechanics more than a lot of people because yes, a lot of people will just kind of give up with it, but keeping complex things like that in my head is fun to me. In this case, however, there is something that trumps that in a way. Doctor Who is timey-wimey, but it is also a story. There are tenets of storytelling that come before temporal mechanics. That's part of why we even follow The Doctor in this linear fashion. And because that is The Doctor's story, that is also largely The Master's story and how we see it. Also on a specific note, there being Masters after Missy doesn't ruin anything. Honestly I don't know why everyone fell in love with the idea of redemption there as a permanent thing because this show really does go on forever BUT! This is a case where the linear story still works (even if it involves the EU. People hear "expanded" and immediately turn away or assume it's complex or whine about needed to know every piece of media, but this is one Big Finish you can read about on the wiki, it's fine). I'm not going to spoil The Lumiat here, but she is what comes between Missy and Dhawan and it makes a whole lot of sense (and gives a TON of weight and value to Missy's arc while also directly setting up Dhawan, even though the writer didn't know he was coming in the show when creating the story). Point is, chronological order is fine and sometimes even a little necessary and can be just as fun as "ooh but this point is really this point and from this perspective etc etc etc".
Personally, I think there is a desire for closure for modern Doctor Who audiences. The master in classic and as far as we know in new-who has always appeared linearly. I think I image of Missy laying down gives rhetorical impression of death but it’s not confirmed. I think the clue is in the episode that she actually regenerates. Think back to the conversation she has with her former self who says his dematerialization circuit was fried. She tells him that one day a scary woman with tell him to always carry a spare concealed in his clothing. The sim master reaches into his pocket and pulls out said circuit. Now, don’t you think that missy remembered shooting herself and was probably wearing something protective that may not of kill her completely but allowed her to regenerate. Remember Time crash. The fifth Doctor watching his future self solve a problem and in term remembering the solution. It’s simple when you think about it.
Except, Missy only remembered any of that as the 2-parter's story progressed. Just like with Day of the Doctor. As we know, it is dangerous to know too much about your own future in DW. So, the memories are permanently blocked until the events that created them come to pass. Otherwise, Missy wouldn't have been genuinely shocked or confused and she would've recognized the "scary lady" as herself until that point. As for Missy calmly laying down to let herself die... she believed the Saxon-Master when he said regeneration was useless since he used his laser screwdriver at full power. Even if she had survived, she had fully joined Team Doctor at that point and would've never become the Spy-Master despite discovering the Timeless Children stuff hidden by the Time Lord Council.
@@Soron661 My rebuttal is something said by the 8th Doctor talking about the Master “Rules never meant much to him”The Master always comes back and doesn’t exactly share the moral code of the Doctor. Fact his he used foreknowledge from his future self to repair his Tardis, which he did, so it worked. (In fact Missy says she remembers being him meaning she knows he shoots her). Although, I agree she may want to be redeemed and stand with the Doctor, I felt the final act of shooting herself was really showing how The Master can never really escape his/her nature. Also, when I think about the history and cunning of the master and what he’s survived in the past. Disintegration, burned , falling down a crevice and swallowed by the eye of harmony. A laser to the back seems a little underwhelming. Besides, it would be like killing moriarty in Sherlock Holmes and I would imagine if they wanted to permanently kill the Master it would be a bigger deal narratively.
No War Chief? I personally think that The War Chief from Patrick Troughton's final story is the temporal loophole to make the Master's timeline make some sense since he is confirmed to be another rogue time lord with a militaristic/insane bent. Perhaps that is the kid version of The Master who grows up to fight in the Time War (full of drums in his head and an insatiable bloodlust) who then grows old and becomes Derek Jacobi. Kind of like how the War Doctor doesn't really count in the numbering
If we follow your theories anything is possible. I wondered if the damage to his body that was shown in "The Deadly Assassin" is the result of his injuries in "Power of the Doctor". At this point, Gallifrey had been destroyed, so he goes back in time to an earlier point to steal the power to regenerate.
Many years ago, way before new Who I had a theory that the Master we see executed in the TV movie was the Delgado version. The version last seen on screen allied with the Daleks in Frontier in Space. Then the effects of being suck into the eye at the end is what destroys his body leading to the one we see in the Deadly assassin where he then tries to use the eye on Gallifrey to restore it. I like your theory although I don't know if I'd have it as my own head canon as take a lot of expanded media into account. However the idea that the Master could have knowledge of his own future events might explain why he decided to disguise himself as a scarecrow and stand around in a field seemingly waiting for the Doctor to show up in Mark of the Rani.
I like it, but the main criticism I have is classical era masters knowing about the time war. Or really any post time war time lord being on pre time war gallifrey. Just feels iffy to me
I always explained away the drumbeat being with him all his life issue by simply implying it got stronger and stronger the closer to the point in his personal history when it was relevant. So throughout classic who it was there, maybe driving him a little insane, possibly a reason for him being darker than most time lords, but at the same time not making him scream about the sound in his head. Then by the time of Nu-Who it gets so loud it's all he can think about, no amount of timelord trickery or intellect and self-separation from his own psyche can keep that sound from overpowering everything. It became all consuming.
The idea of this makes sense because The Doctor knows O before he turns out to be the Master. So, The Master could have stolen O's body as he did with the others
I don't think the drums can be a strong point that Saxon Master was before others. Because 1) insanity is a thing that can grow slowly and very slowly. 2) He could simply ignore it. Thinking that this is a complete normal thing for a Timelord and everybody else hear it (or smth similar) as well. Such happens in real life so why not here. 3) (and the more important) Dhawan Master is even more insane, but he doesn't hear the drums. But in general it was an interesting theory to hear.
I have a few notes. I don't think the Delgado master is the 13th incarnation maybe the 12th because the decayed Master is a different person & nothing really points to him being the same incarnation so I think the decayed one is just another incarnation after Delgado's master. I don't know many of the expanded media ones but I do know that after missy we have the Lumette or something its a wierd word & she's like the anti-master all the good in a single person. I think this is where the spymaster comes in as he seems like all the insane parts of the master in 1 so we just say Missy kinda bigenerated or something. we may also justify the drums thing being only in 1 Master's timeline due to a fun thing called the Timewar since it rewrites time & stuff we may just assume its one of the many pseudo-time paradoxes it created like the 20 types of daleks that existed but didn't before. But I do like your explanation. the Master's timeline kinda goes like this regenerates through 1st cycle, decays, steals a guys body, maybe regenerates into someone else but anyway dies but is a goop thing & steals another body but its weak & is rappidly decaying (really cheap body he used the old Tremas for what a few hundred years maybe & the Paramedic Bruce only lasted him like a day or two) anyway he then likely is actually killed & then revived using time war magic & goes through either a single incarnation or a cycle in the war & then he becomes a human before reawakening & regenerating into the saxon master before he decides I am going to die. then he is revived as skeleton master & becomes every person on earth bar donna & Wilf. Afterwards he heads back to galifry & loses his insanity. We then somehow get to missy. But I like the inverse which you showed problem is finding out who goes where in the end.
`The Simm Master has stated in 'The Doctor Falls' when discussing how to kill The 12th Doctor with Missy, that he knows that he (The Doctor) has fallen,' which you would assume is directing to The 4th Doctor (Tom Baker) falling in Logopolis and regenerating. Of course with the whole Timeless Child arc, this could also point to a different Doctor, but since this storyline came out after 'The Doctor Falls' it's unlikely. Of course...... since time travel is a huge part of the show, the in show lore could change this, and mean The Simm Master was indeed talking about a different Doctor pre-Hartnell, but imo I would suggest Simm is after The Classic Who Masters.
We know the Master has had loads of incarnations, so its possible he's the other half of "Timeless Children." The fact there was only one Timeless Child mentioned doesn't sit well with me in relation to the episode title. Oh. An idea just came to me. It is quite possible that the Master did bi-generate from the Doctor during experimentations done on the doctor by Tecteun. It would explain why the Spy-Master was able to force the Doctor to regerate into him and why the myth of bi-generation exists. This would also explain why the Master is so dark and aggressive no matter who he's fighting. As the Time Lords clearly feared the Doctor enough to erase his memory and put a block to prevent him from regenerating more than the established amount, which was clearly reversed in Time of the Doctor, they could've easily wrenched all the darkness from the Doctor and implanted it into the bi-generation to "give birth" to the Master. That would definitely give enough fuel to the Spy-Master's rage for him to destroy Gallifrey and then turn the dead Time Lords into Cybermen as a final "Eff you" to the Time Lords.
I know you said you weren’t considering expanded media, but in one of the Doctor Who Annuals, 13 is talking to the Sacha Dhawan Master and says “I quite liked you as Missy. At least she wanted to change, to be a better person.” The Master then responds with “She spent too long in your company, Doctor. A mistake I don’t intend to repeat.” This confirms Missy comes before the Sacha Dhawan Master.
The one issue I have with Simm coming towards the start of the timeline is that The Master would have known about the time war and travelled back to a time-locked Gallifrey as the classic Masters and yet never once mentioned it.
The Master is pretty reckless, but I don't think even he is reckless enough to go back and start spoiling the Time War. The war truly scared him, and he knows how much impact that could have on the timelines of the Doctor and the Time Lords. That's my belief anyway
I thought the same thing, but I think of the Master as circular. Meaning parts of the Master after the 1990s movie flew through the time vortex and merged with his young self as he looked into the temporal scizm. Then, the young Master would not only have the drum beats, but a part of all the future Masters in him. Then the young Master possessed by the older 1990s Master steals a Tardis, runs to the future, uses a fob watch.
Yeah I've heard about that. It's not impossible, but there easily could've also been other evil Time Lords out there. I get why people might think that tho
I also believe that Missy remains the true final incarnation of the Master since the Saxon-Master fired at her with enough power to make regeneration pointless. Also, she made a reference about knowing the Doctor since she was a little girl. That implies she knew all about the Timeless Children(once the Chibnall era introduced it, of course).
The fun of it is that The Master incarnations can be put in almost any order and it's still gonna make as much sense as anything else about them. That being none. Why do we even assume Pratt comes right after Delgado? Or that Delgado is not a stolen body? And what was Gordon Tipple's incarnation - Delgado, Ainley, Tzun, or a completely different one? It was never explained how The Master left The Eye of Harmony, or got rid of Cheetah virus? All the explanations we have is expanded media, the writers of the show are blatantly not interested in providing them, because... Why would they, really? What does it matter? The Master always comes back anyway, in one form or another. The fans can have fun theorizing, while the show can focus on actually important stuff - the story at hand.
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Honestly makes sense for a character like the Master to have such a complicated timeline but really glad for this video.
seriously,i mean this theory has kinda sense but come on maybe there is a mystery in dhawan s Master s jealousy(apart from the doctor being the TC )that made the master more insane that before and the answer is in big finish. With the lumiat
It’d be kinda cool if it’s
1.War Chief
2.Time War Child Master
3.Utopia monster
4.John Simm
5.Roger Delgado
6.Crispy Master
7.Anthony Ainley
8.Sasha Dwane
9.Missy
It’s as simple as the drum beat wasn’t written in classic who.
The musical notation of the relevant part of the theme tune is quaver, quaver quaver dotted crotchet twice per bar which fits a 4/4 time signature so it doesn’t make a pair of heart beats anyway which would have 2 regular beats each. It’s da-da-da dummm, da-da-da dummm, da-da-da dummm, da-da de-da, da-da-da dumm and so on it’s clearly not da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da. So it’s poor writing by someone failing to ret-con the theme tune and 2 hearts.
With the drumbeat, my theory is that it was always in the Master's subconsious, but not prominent. But the War Master using the Chameleon Arch was the thing that brought it to the front of Yana's mind, then when he opened it, it was there in his mind with Simm's Master
Perhaps also, having the drumbeat all his life led the Master to believe it was a normal thing everyone had, so maybe when he became Yana he started to notice that it was abnormal because the drums would only come back when he got lost in his subconscious or started to remember.
When 'Yana' was remembering the Master in Utopia you can here Roger Delgado from one of his stories (I can't remember which, possibly the Daemons) as well as Ainley's laugh which always implied that they were after.
Although I like this theory, it is clearly stated that the NewWho Masters come after the Classic Masters. In “The Sound of Drums” the Master states that he was resurrected by the Time Lords to be the perfect warrior for the Time War. If the Saxon Master is before Roger Delgado’s Master than there would be no point in time for the Master to be dead in order to be resurrected unless you create some head canon event just to so your theory can be right. Also the War Master as Professor Yana hears the voices of the Classic Masters when he is remembering who he is. Doctor Who expanded media specifically confirms the NewWho Master existing after the Classic Masters in the Big Finish Audio Dramas. The Audio Dramas even confirm Dhawan’s Master is after Missy, which I personally hate. It is implied in “The End of Time” that drumming got worse since the Master was the closest in his timeline to activating the beacon to bring back the timelords. Maybe the Classic Masters aren’t as crazy due to the drumbeat being much less intense. Each Classic Master seems to get more crazy from Delgado onward so that seems like the best explanation.
where the hand of Missy grabbing the edge of the mirror in the 50th anniversary special in the black archive fit in your timeline
Ok, I'll grant you this is an interesting theory, the tv series itself disproves it.
With Yana's fob watch we clearly hear the voices of the Delgado and Tremas incarnations before he opens it, meaning the Yana and Saxon incarnations are post classic era.
I'm just gonna assume those lines were non-diegetic (I am definitely not living in denial)
Roger delgado the typa guy who can kiss you goodnight and hold you tight! if ya know wha im sayin
The master does have a definitive timeline and all the onscreen masters are in order, but there's gaps in between.
Delgado is 12
Beavers is 13
Ainley is 14 if you want to keep things simple but technically still 13 if you want to be pedantic.
The guy at the beginning of the TV movie is 15 (it's confirmed not to be Ainley's incarnation)
Roberts is 16
Then he's resurrected and given a new regeneration cycle.
MacQueen is 17
Jacobi is 18
Simm is 19
Gomez is 20
Then there's the Luminat who was originally 21 before 19 killed 20, but their timeline was erased by this so instead we got Dwann as 21.
Most of this is either confirmed or can be deciphered via Big Finish audios, as thery have multiple multi master stories like Masterful that full on just tell you the order.
I don't think Lumiat was erased, so she would still be 21 and Dwann 22
The Lumiat wasnt erased (that was only one possible timeline)... after the Lumiat gut killed, she felt angry about her "good" choises and turned unhinged... however there are only implication that she would become Dhawan, since her regeneration was recorded before Dhawan got the role. It fits because her regeneration and Dhawans first episde aired around the same time. But still, since we have no regeneration for him, While TARDIS wiki lists him after the Lumiat, Dhawan could still fit betwen Roberts and MacQueen, i guess time will tell... BTW SPOILERS... Masterfull gave us two of Missys best dilouge ever. 1. The other Masters asked who the Lumiat is and Missy replied "A scene-stealing addition" 2. Missy points to the War-Master saying "Thats because the Universe was blown up, by Gandalfs husband over there!" I laught so hard when she said that. Such a nice joke about Derek Jakobi and Ian McKellen playing a old married couple in their sitcom Vicious.
I kind of like the ainley and beavers to be the same number.
As that would make Dwann number 20
And his debut was on 1-1- 2020 How perfect is that.
I honestly don't like the idea of the Master's redemption arc, when he was Missy, is rendered pointless just so we can keep onscreen incarnations of the Master one after another in the incarnation list. If that's how things are going to be done, then I'd rather Missy have never gotten her redemption arc at all.
@@Soron661 well, that's not the only problem of the Chibnall era
All this just because RTD couldn't be bothered to make sense. He easily could have made it so that the drumbeat was inserted only during the Master's resurrection during the Time War. Then all this could have been avoided.
Also, my theory is that the Master's do indeed occur in the order we see them, but "Saxon" saw Missy and decided to regenerate into someone else (we did see that he and other Time Lords can usually control their regenerations, unlike the Doctor). Making Missy a temporal anomaly that both happened and didn't happen.
Except Missy never remembered seeing herself back when she was the Saxon-Master.
@@Soron661Well, yeah. In the theory described above, she was orphaned from the timeline because Saxon purposely avoided becoming her. It would also explain Dhawan's Master because Saxon claimed to kill her in such a way that that she couldn't regenerate.
I mean, you could easily say the Time War made the drums an in-universe retcon. Some Big Finish stories play with the idea that Classic stories were impacted by the war, like how the Day Of the Daleks used to not involve Ogrons. If RTD revealed the discrepencies with the drums are Time War-related it would underline how insidious the conflict's effect of history was
@@michaelburke4048 The John Simm Master only didn't remember being on the colony ship because he crossed his future timeline. It's the same reason why the 10th and War Doctors didn't remember the events of the 50th anniversary. He still becomes Missy but only she can remember because she's the more recent incarnation between the 2 of them.
I do like this theory, but there’s 1 thing that disproves it: when the Simms Master questions if he’ll turn into her in his next life, Missy tells him it’s all a bit hazy. If Missy is at the end of the timeline, she should remember the Spy Master and Classic Masters being after Simm, but she doesn’t, because those are both their past, so the theory can’t really work given the context of the show. And if she is the end, why doesn’t she remember nuking Gallifrey?
Thanks for confirming my theory. I've always thought that Dewan's Master Came before Missy even though a lot of people were up in arms when he first appeared saying that he negated the whole Missy Redeption Arc even though it was never confirmed that he came after her. People just assumed he did; which was a shame because there was no evidence that he would have come after her. And you just confirmed that he didn't.
Theres actually a big finish audio which confirms Dewan comes after Missy. It does also explain why they regressed tho, its just disappointing that there was no on screen explanation
the Missy being the end of the masters timeline makes so much sense to me and Sacha Dhawan being after her just ruins that beautiful ending to her story ,
in my theory ( only focusing on Simm , Dhawan and Gomez
Simm meets missy in the S10 finale , shoots her after she stabs him , Regen's into Dhawan , whos like a similar nuts/Evil to Simms, had just met his Female counterpart and mentioned in the story Prior is the future going to be all girl , only for him to directly bump into the 13th Doctor, keeps the habit Simm made of siding with the Cybermen and using them , starts to ware Purple and use The TARDIS he took back when he was Simm , Gets trapped in the tooth and Becomes Missy or Bi Generates to Missy , either way ! , Subconsciously becoming Female thanks to meeting 13 , remember his last words to her before changing back , was don't let me go back to being me , and if i cant be the doctor , neither can you , something along those lines, anyways regens to missy , missy who is also cooky wacky at first , Still wares purple and teams with the cybermen, meets 12 , her TARDIS get taken by unit off screen in S8 giving her the vortex manipulator in S9 , turns good through influence of the Doctor and well the S10 finale happens and she dies knowing she sided with the Doctor,
This theory cuts out and doesn't include any BF or expanded media logic to it , but makes sense to me :D
apologize for bad grammar XD
Does make some sense, yeh.
I like that theory tho…it makes sense
When it comes to the masters drum beat, I think it was not prevalent in classic who because the end of time was super far away, but with simms master, it was getting louder and louder as end of time approached, the classic who master probably heard it, but it was super faint that they subconsciously unheard it like how you can't hear your own heartbeat
Y'know what that actually kinda makes sense. Fair point
I've just started watching 19th season of Classic Who, which starts with Master's story.
Since this story is one out of the series of stories about Master's regeneration which comes after his final one, I was interested in how many regenerations he had and also about him overall. So that video is just what I needed
MISSY IS THE BEST MASTER
I've always believed that the masters timeline is different to The Doctors.
MY THEORIES ABOUT (THE-MASTER’S) REFORMATION & FIRST NEW FACE AFTERWARDS:
First theory; I theorize that The-Master might have a genuine fan, who is responsible for picking up the gold tooth, that was his imprisoned form.
I also theorize this fan is a young lady, who pretended to be a member of the agency.
To add I imagine she has done studies about magic, about theorized highly advanced scientific technology, and she had stolen some alien technology too.
In addition I imagine that when The-Master, finally has his body reformed, before his first new face, his last face temporarily appears, and then a few minutes later his new face takes shape.
Plus to add I theorize The-Master’s new face, is of a young man who died seven years ago, that his young lady fan knew, and she secretly had a crush on him.
My 2nd. set of theories; I theorize that The-Master, meets The-Doctor again, on a day when an ancient enemy suddenly appears, and I imagine that enemy appears about eight months later.
That is once The-Doctor reappeared, after returning from being on an adventure, with his new companion for those eight months.
I also theorize, the slight possibility, that The-Master, he develops a genuine interest in his fan, and he has genuine respect for her as well.
And so I theorize The-Master, decides that the young woman, will become his very first companion, and she will be his partner, in trying to ruin The-Doctor’s happiness.
where the hand of Missy grabbing the edge of the mirror in the 50th anniversary special in the black archive fit in your timeline?? You dont mention it vocally, i listedned to the video here, and watched when we reached missy, no show of that hand, only the hand picking up the master's gold tooth in the giggle.
I think the Master's timeline can be completely inconsistent, because the Master travels in time and doesn't obey the rules of time-travel, so the Masters can produce inconsistent timelines for themselves. For example, the Master can travel back in time and prevent the regeneration into their current version, leaving two different Master lineages, one of whom might permanently die, and so on.
My head cannon is John Simm, then Sacha Dhawan, then Missy. All due to him being similar levels of insane between Simms & Dhawan & starting as insane when Missy arrives before starting to repent. It seemed wrong for the master to go from Missy to then loose all that growth to become Dhawan's master. I like your theory, though.
This kinda contradicts the time lock of the time war, because the classic master interacted with the time lords, which the time lock would have made impossible, if he had already gone through the time war
Somehow I think we aren't even supposed to understand the Master's timeline. As a character who doesn't abide to any rule and has a rather dubious moral compass, the Master has likely intertwined his own time stream so weirdly, combining this with knowledge taken from the Matrix, that most timeline theories could probably apply with a large extent of accuracy. I think the Master himself/herself has lost track of the point in life they're at. They probably know a lot of their own future prematurely which is likely what led the "Saxon" Master to meet "Missy" and kill her.
tl;dr - theories are cool but we will never know for sure and it's okay that we don't.
For a change I'd love to see a new Master actually being from one of the gaps in his timeline. Have a Pre-Delgado Master that's not fully minted in the whole evil thing fight the 16th Doctor and be an audience surrogate for those confused with the massive continuity because that incarnation was doing some off-screen stuff with 2
Great theory it's a very interesting take. My personal problem with it comes down simply to the dematerialization circuit. When Missy and the Master are talking Missy drills into her previous incarnation's head to always carry a spare dematerialization circuit which leads to her having one in her pocket. If the Simm Master is then going to go on to be Delgado master, then why in the Terror of the Autons, when the Master and the Doctor are facing off, does the Master seem worried with the Doctor having his dematerialization circuit? He would presumably would have another one and wouldn't think twice about shooting the Doctor and destroying his circuit, however in the episode it seems that he doesn't have a spare. Also I'm thinking about the size of the props themselves. The classic series props are bigger than the ones in the new series. In the Terror of the Autons both the Doctors type 1 and the Masters type 2 dematerialization circuits are the same size meaning that while it is newer than the Doctors its not that much newer, but the one that Missy has is much smaller. This makes me think that the Tardis the Master has in The Doctor Falls is newer than the one in the Terror of the Autons, because presumably as the technology advanced on Gallifrey the circuit got smaller so when the Master goes back to the end of the Time War he steals a newer Tardis than the one seen in Terror of the Autons. I understand that the differing sizes in props are likely down to production but hey I like coming up with these theories myself.
Love the video! Love the theory! I love doctor who but I struggle to find engaging channels on it. Subscription from me!
Yknow Missy being the last Master is the only thing that makes sense. BUT then again, Chibnall was never big on making sense - so while i assume Chib wanted Spymaster to be the newest one, luckily he never confirmed it so RTDcan still save it
i like the idea dhwan came before missy but its an interesting headcanon even if i dont 100% agree
Missy was the best master in my opinion and what did they do they completely removed every min of character development with the master after her and i hate this so much🫥
S11-12 comes before missy, missy is the final master imo
I think Dhawan is the master between the war and professor Yana.
God theory but flaw when bringing in expanded media
Its pretty much confirmed they happen in order of appearance.
Welp, not according to big finish
The lumiat
Honestly it's wild to me how so few Doctor Who fans don't really think about putting the Doctor Who timeline in a non-linear order, the show is about time travel isn't it?!
Why would The Masters be in a linear order? Yet no one really thinks about it. I applaud you sir!
While it is about time travel the classic show has gone out of its way a couple of times to point out that "the present" of Gallifreyan time is kept as a constant so that they don't mess with their own history and that the Doctor and Master generally meet each other in the correct order when only one version of either of them is involved.
Nope if you knew the lore you would know and understand that the Master after falling into the Eye of Harmony was resurrected by the Timelords to fight in the Time War but he didn't want to fight and ran to the end of the universe regenerates into a young boy and has his Timelord memories put inside his fob watch
The reason the drums were not in the classic Masters head is because simply it wasn't and that is because Gallifrey wasn't locked away from everyone in its own pocket universe it was destroyed by the War Doctor but now that has changed
but...gallifrey wasnt locked in a pocket universe until after the time war? and the time lords' plans to use the master to escape only occurred in the final days of the time war? but please, do tell me more about how i'm the one who doesn't know the lore 🙄
What about the TV movie (Eric Roberts) Master where does it fit into your time line?
I just think the movie takes place in its own universe cos of all the stuff about the Doctor being half-human lol
But if Missy was the final version of the Master, she should have recognised her former self when she first met the John Simm Master and had his memories of him shooting her.
When Time Lords meet each other, the timelines are put out of sync, so only the newest incarnation remembers the encounter
Or, or... hear me out... it's literally just the order we see The Master in. Like it's just that. Officially. The Master's timeline hasn't been a mystery in years.
Child -> Incarnations 1-11 -> Delgado -> Pratt/Beevers -> Ainley -> Bodyhopping -> Roberts -> (more shenanigans in the expanded material) -> resurrected for the Time War (Alex Macqueen) -> (unknown if there's a gap here) -> Jacobi -> Simm -> (unknown if there's a gap here) -> Gomez -> (The Lumiat) -> Dhawan
It's simple, it's sensical, and it's already baked into the flow of the show, just like The Doctor's incarnations. We follow both of them in order.
Plus there are some things in the theory that just don't really make sense. Like how "The Master doesn't have the drumbeat in Classic Who, therefore those incarnations must come after". That's because it was written in New Who??? It's a small retcon. Just because The Master never talked about the drumbeat in Classic Who doesn't mean it wasn't there.
Also Dhawan "knowing about the four knocks" is because it's literally just their code. It's the Time Lord heartbeat. That's why the Time Lords chose that as the drumbeat for The Master as well.
that's the "fuck it, i'm lazy and don't want to even consider temporal reasons for things cause time travel confuses me" way of seeing things. so many people are like that, unfortunately, which is why many people don't like time travel in general. I do love chronological order, but sometimes... it just ruins things. The way you see the Master's timeline makes Missy having a redemption arc completely pointless. Also, not everyone pays attention to the expanded media as its very rarely ever confirmed as canon.
@@Soron661 It's not lazy. At least not from me personally. I love temporal mechanics more than a lot of people because yes, a lot of people will just kind of give up with it, but keeping complex things like that in my head is fun to me. In this case, however, there is something that trumps that in a way. Doctor Who is timey-wimey, but it is also a story. There are tenets of storytelling that come before temporal mechanics. That's part of why we even follow The Doctor in this linear fashion. And because that is The Doctor's story, that is also largely The Master's story and how we see it.
Also on a specific note, there being Masters after Missy doesn't ruin anything. Honestly I don't know why everyone fell in love with the idea of redemption there as a permanent thing because this show really does go on forever BUT! This is a case where the linear story still works (even if it involves the EU. People hear "expanded" and immediately turn away or assume it's complex or whine about needed to know every piece of media, but this is one Big Finish you can read about on the wiki, it's fine). I'm not going to spoil The Lumiat here, but she is what comes between Missy and Dhawan and it makes a whole lot of sense (and gives a TON of weight and value to Missy's arc while also directly setting up Dhawan, even though the writer didn't know he was coming in the show when creating the story).
Point is, chronological order is fine and sometimes even a little necessary and can be just as fun as "ooh but this point is really this point and from this perspective etc etc etc".
Personally, I think there is a desire for closure for modern Doctor Who audiences. The master in classic and as far as we know in new-who has always appeared linearly. I think I image of Missy laying down gives rhetorical impression of death but it’s not confirmed. I think the clue is in the episode that she actually regenerates. Think back to the conversation she has with her former self who says his dematerialization circuit was fried. She tells him that one day a scary woman with tell him to always carry a spare concealed in his clothing. The sim master reaches into his pocket and pulls out said circuit. Now, don’t you think that missy remembered shooting herself and was probably wearing something protective that may not of kill her completely but allowed her to regenerate. Remember Time crash. The fifth Doctor watching his future self solve a problem and in term remembering the solution. It’s simple when you think about it.
Except, Missy only remembered any of that as the 2-parter's story progressed. Just like with Day of the Doctor. As we know, it is dangerous to know too much about your own future in DW. So, the memories are permanently blocked until the events that created them come to pass. Otherwise, Missy wouldn't have been genuinely shocked or confused and she would've recognized the "scary lady" as herself until that point. As for Missy calmly laying down to let herself die... she believed the Saxon-Master when he said regeneration was useless since he used his laser screwdriver at full power. Even if she had survived, she had fully joined Team Doctor at that point and would've never become the Spy-Master despite discovering the Timeless Children stuff hidden by the Time Lord Council.
@@Soron661 My rebuttal is something said by the 8th Doctor talking about the Master “Rules never meant much to him”The Master always comes back and doesn’t exactly share the moral code of the Doctor. Fact his he used foreknowledge from his future self to repair his Tardis, which he did, so it worked. (In fact Missy says she remembers being him meaning she knows he shoots her). Although, I agree she may want to be redeemed and stand with the Doctor, I felt the final act of shooting herself was really showing how The Master can never really escape his/her nature. Also, when I think about the history and cunning of the master and what he’s survived in the past. Disintegration, burned , falling down a crevice and swallowed by the eye of harmony. A laser to the back seems a little underwhelming. Besides, it would be like killing moriarty in Sherlock Holmes and I would imagine if they wanted to permanently kill the Master it would be a bigger deal narratively.
I like it
Zero point trying to make sense of Doctor Who I've been watching it for 40 plus years. It does whatever it wants
Oh I completely agree, I just find it fun lol
@@Cosmic_Nite yeah always good the theorise 👍💯
No War Chief? I personally think that The War Chief from Patrick Troughton's final story is the temporal loophole to make the Master's timeline make some sense since he is confirmed to be another rogue time lord with a militaristic/insane bent. Perhaps that is the kid version of The Master who grows up to fight in the Time War (full of drums in his head and an insatiable bloodlust) who then grows old and becomes Derek Jacobi. Kind of like how the War Doctor doesn't really count in the numbering
If we follow your theories anything is possible. I wondered if the damage to his body that was shown in "The Deadly Assassin" is the result of his injuries in "Power of the Doctor". At this point, Gallifrey had been destroyed, so he goes back in time to an earlier point to steal the power to regenerate.
Many years ago, way before new Who I had a theory that the Master we see executed in the TV movie was the Delgado version. The version last seen on screen allied with the Daleks in Frontier in Space. Then the effects of being suck into the eye at the end is what destroys his body leading to the one we see in the Deadly assassin where he then tries to use the eye on Gallifrey to restore it.
I like your theory although I don't know if I'd have it as my own head canon as take a lot of expanded media into account. However the idea that the Master could have knowledge of his own future events might explain why he decided to disguise himself as a scarecrow and stand around in a field seemingly waiting for the Doctor to show up in Mark of the Rani.
I like it, but the main criticism I have is classical era masters knowing about the time war. Or really any post time war time lord being on pre time war gallifrey. Just feels iffy to me
I always explained away the drumbeat being with him all his life issue by simply implying it got stronger and stronger the closer to the point in his personal history when it was relevant.
So throughout classic who it was there, maybe driving him a little insane, possibly a reason for him being darker than most time lords, but at the same time not making him scream about the sound in his head. Then by the time of Nu-Who it gets so loud it's all he can think about, no amount of timelord trickery or intellect and self-separation from his own psyche can keep that sound from overpowering everything. It became all consuming.
The idea of this makes sense because The Doctor knows O before he turns out to be the Master. So, The Master could have stolen O's body as he did with the others
I don't think the drums can be a strong point that Saxon Master was before others. Because
1) insanity is a thing that can grow slowly and very slowly.
2) He could simply ignore it. Thinking that this is a complete normal thing for a Timelord and everybody else hear it (or smth similar) as well. Such happens in real life so why not here.
3) (and the more important) Dhawan Master is even more insane, but he doesn't hear the drums.
But in general it was an interesting theory to hear.
I have a few notes. I don't think the Delgado master is the 13th incarnation maybe the 12th because the decayed Master is a different person & nothing really points to him being the same incarnation so I think the decayed one is just another incarnation after Delgado's master. I don't know many of the expanded media ones but I do know that after missy we have the Lumette or something its a wierd word & she's like the anti-master all the good in a single person. I think this is where the spymaster comes in as he seems like all the insane parts of the master in 1 so we just say Missy kinda bigenerated or something. we may also justify the drums thing being only in 1 Master's timeline due to a fun thing called the Timewar since it rewrites time & stuff we may just assume its one of the many pseudo-time paradoxes it created like the 20 types of daleks that existed but didn't before. But I do like your explanation. the Master's timeline kinda goes like this
regenerates through 1st cycle, decays, steals a guys body, maybe regenerates into someone else but anyway dies but is a goop thing & steals another body but its weak & is rappidly decaying (really cheap body he used the old Tremas for what a few hundred years maybe & the Paramedic Bruce only lasted him like a day or two) anyway he then likely is actually killed & then revived using time war magic & goes through either a single incarnation or a cycle in the war & then he becomes a human before reawakening & regenerating into the saxon master before he decides I am going to die. then he is revived as skeleton master & becomes every person on earth bar donna & Wilf. Afterwards he heads back to galifry & loses his insanity. We then somehow get to missy. But I like the inverse which you showed problem is finding out who goes where in the end.
`The Simm Master has stated in 'The Doctor Falls' when discussing how to kill The 12th Doctor with Missy, that he knows that he (The Doctor) has fallen,' which you would assume is directing to The 4th Doctor (Tom Baker) falling in Logopolis and regenerating.
Of course with the whole Timeless Child arc, this could also point to a different Doctor, but since this storyline came out after 'The Doctor Falls' it's unlikely.
Of course...... since time travel is a huge part of the show, the in show lore could change this, and mean The Simm Master was indeed talking about a different Doctor pre-Hartnell, but imo I would suggest Simm is after The Classic Who Masters.
We know the Master has had loads of incarnations, so its possible he's the other half of "Timeless Children." The fact there was only one Timeless Child mentioned doesn't sit well with me in relation to the episode title. Oh. An idea just came to me. It is quite possible that the Master did bi-generate from the Doctor during experimentations done on the doctor by Tecteun. It would explain why the Spy-Master was able to force the Doctor to regerate into him and why the myth of bi-generation exists. This would also explain why the Master is so dark and aggressive no matter who he's fighting. As the Time Lords clearly feared the Doctor enough to erase his memory and put a block to prevent him from regenerating more than the established amount, which was clearly reversed in Time of the Doctor, they could've easily wrenched all the darkness from the Doctor and implanted it into the bi-generation to "give birth" to the Master. That would definitely give enough fuel to the Spy-Master's rage for him to destroy Gallifrey and then turn the dead Time Lords into Cybermen as a final "Eff you" to the Time Lords.
I know you said you weren’t considering expanded media, but in one of the Doctor Who Annuals, 13 is talking to the Sacha Dhawan Master and says “I quite liked you as Missy. At least she wanted to change, to be a better person.” The Master then responds with “She spent too long in your company, Doctor. A mistake I don’t intend to repeat.” This confirms Missy comes before the Sacha Dhawan Master.
I mean, if you wanna consider the annuals to be canon, sure. Personally I don't think I would lol
man! didnt know i needed this vid so bad, rlly interesting take :) love to see it
I love the idea of a convoluted history for The Master! 😁
The one issue I have with Simm coming towards the start of the timeline is that The Master would have known about the time war and travelled back to a time-locked Gallifrey as the classic Masters and yet never once mentioned it.
The Master is pretty reckless, but I don't think even he is reckless enough to go back and start spoiling the Time War. The war truly scared him, and he knows how much impact that could have on the timelines of the Doctor and the Time Lords. That's my belief anyway
I thought the same thing, but I think of the Master as circular.
Meaning parts of the Master after the 1990s movie flew through the time vortex and merged with his young self as he looked into the temporal scizm.
Then, the young Master would not only have the drum beats, but a part of all the future Masters in him.
Then the young Master possessed by the older 1990s Master steals a Tardis, runs to the future, uses a fob watch.
What about the theory that both the Meddling Monk and the War Chief were both early versions of the Master?
Yeah I've heard about that. It's not impossible, but there easily could've also been other evil Time Lords out there. I get why people might think that tho
I also believe that Missy remains the true final incarnation of the Master since the Saxon-Master fired at her with enough power to make regeneration pointless. Also, she made a reference about knowing the Doctor since she was a little girl. That implies she knew all about the Timeless Children(once the Chibnall era introduced it, of course).
The fun of it is that The Master incarnations can be put in almost any order and it's still gonna make as much sense as anything else about them. That being none.
Why do we even assume Pratt comes right after Delgado? Or that Delgado is not a stolen body? And what was Gordon Tipple's incarnation - Delgado, Ainley, Tzun, or a completely different one? It was never explained how The Master left The Eye of Harmony, or got rid of Cheetah virus? All the explanations we have is expanded media, the writers of the show are blatantly not interested in providing them, because... Why would they, really? What does it matter? The Master always comes back anyway, in one form or another. The fans can have fun theorizing, while the show can focus on actually important stuff - the story at hand.
Um no....just no. Nu Who isn't canon. The Master's dead or lost in the cheetah dimension.
Nu who is canon. Keep crying about it
You are being way too lenient there. Doctor Who ended in 1963. That caveman episode was ass