2023 HARLEY DAVIDSON UPDATE! How much PROFIT are they making per BIKE?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ก.ค. 2024
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In this informative video I provide an in-depth look at the latest financial updates for Harley Davidson as we head into 2023. The video covers Revenue, Income, Sales Numbers and How much PROFIT are they making Per Bike.
#2023 #harleydavidson #update #Profitperbike
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Chapters:
0:00 Intro
0:31 stock price
1:18 Why Stock is Up
2:39 Livewire
3:41 Sales
4:23 Profit per Bike
5:35 MSRP vs Inflation
6:55 Solutions
7:40 The problem - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Do you think $3,000+ Profit per Bike is to much?
"Do you think $3,000+ Profit per Bike is to much?" Fewer units sold = higher price per unit. They're doing what they have to to keep the doors open and make a profit. I'm not defending high prices or surcharges (which unfortunately are used industry wide) but what other choices do they really have? The auto industry is dealing with the same issues- price a pickup lately? Auto sales still haven't recovered to pre-pandemic levels.Less expensive lower profit vehicles are largely gone or are pushed upmarket to a more profitable price point- which is why I think there's no standard FLHR Road King in 2023. My guess is that it cost a lot to produce (all the chrome, footboards, passing lamps etc., etc.) especially at its price point and that it will reappear in a revised form at a significantly higher price.
Clueless politicians, most of whom couldn't organize a two car funeral procession, are the real culprits and cause of the crazy inflation we all deal with. And that's not the half of it when in a number of states that same clueless bunch are trying to ban the sale of internal combustion engines. This won't end well.
I Googled "Which motorcycle sell the most" long before this video came out and it said that Harley-Davidson sells 60% of motorcycle sold. However I personally think that Harley could do better than with the models they're putting out.
@@rmendoza5953 Honda sells way more bikes than Harley. nr 1 Worldwide
@@ekimandersom4478 Over 1000 cc Harley sells more. Foreign motorcycle manufactures are imitating Harley, Harley is not imitating them.
@@rmendoza5953 The Harley Pan America is a GS imitation
After a Softail and SG over the last 20 years, I wanted a fixed fairing. After seeing $36k for a RG Ltd last year, I ended up at the Honda dealer for a Wing DCT and I then found out what an incredible bike Honda makes.
Still looks like shit
Exactly. It will be my next one. Ive had 3 and they are better bikes. The 20 year old models have features on them new Harley's haven't even thought of yet.
Loved my Hondas. I sold my vtx and bought a Harley and frankly I think the Honda is not only more reliable and rides better but more affordable. I will say Harley is better built. Everywhere you look and touch on a hog is chrome and real steel not chrome wrapped plastic.
@J S There boring
I think Harley needs to return to the roots of what made Harley-Davidson. Who needs fancy showrooms? Return to supporting the old products they produced, other company’s and China are making a killing selling those parts and products. Lower the cost of factory products so we can buy them from the dealership. Many of the dealership owners are not bikers anymore car salesmen and money makers, no more love of the reason we ride, just what makes profit.
Makes sense to buy a good used Harley. There's lots of them out there and most of them already have the most popular upgrades. Just my opinion.
You are so right!!!!
I used to sell HD in CA. AND did so fair and square as much as I could.
Take this for what it is worth. I enjoyed the people I met, but was saddened by how we were expected to treat them:
We regulary saw trade in bikes; less than 5 years old, with less than 10K miles! As you said; often decked out with many aftermarket accessories!
Buy low mileage bikes privately if possible. Harley makes a fortune on used bikes and those who really want to buy one. You are a fly in the web of a predator that will show zero mercy.
New bike buyers are however put; "on the path" to milk 'em dry! Sales, Service, then Accessories.
The goal of the dealerships was to screw the customers, when in F&I.
Selling the dream whilst adding; extended warranties, helmets, boots, jackets, shirts, sunglasses and don't forget the loud muffler system at a grand a pop! PLUS whatever else they could peddle.
This is their end game.
Those "free" Cokes, coffee, and fair weather friends; are anything but!
ALWAYS seek financing approved from a Credit Union, (or bank if you feel you must), if you want to leave the dealership with any money left to your name.
ALWAYS demand what Beacon Score they are using and what the number is. (A friend would tell you this info willingly).
ALWAYS demand the interest rate. ALWAYS have a friend with you that reads and understands contracts and has no interest is buying the Harley.
ALWAYS go home to, "sleep on it". (This will cause havoc and bring out their big gun closers!)
Remember, "Finance" is their God!
Take off the rose colored glasses and understand what is really going on! The bike will still be there the next day; if not, they will get one quicker than their initial smile and handshake appeared.
They really are not your friends. If you could be a fly-on-the-wall after ringing the bell, having a photo taken, standing next your new bike and leaving the dealer with it, should you hear the comments that are thown around as soon as you do leave, you would want to return with a firearm.
But;
It seems that to many folk, owning a Harley Davidson, so as to tell others they own one, is more desirable than riding one and they will fund the feeling it gives them, at any cost.....
If they would honor the MSRP price and remove all those added fees. That would be great
Sadly most power sports dealers do that shit. Was a salesman at both car and motorcycle dealerships. The ADM, added dealer fees, are insane in some stores.
When are u dummies going to realize ALL BRANDS DO THIS?
That's exactly what Laidlaw's does from what I understand. Baldwin, CA. Check them out.
@@dontworrybehappy8080 I watch his videos, he was actually instrumental in the bike I chose. I already knew what issues I would have. He stated how bad the stock 2020 Street Bob seat was, and needed to be replaced immediately, since you slide right off the back. He seems honest about what he sells. 3rd generation Harley dealer, he is really into what he does.
Bikes don't get shipped 2000miles for free dum dums
Harley-Davidson is going to price themselves right out of the market . Greed is going to shut them down
And AMF won't be there to bail em out this time LOL
@@nlb2000 i've got a AMF BIKE and there's not enough money to buy it,i've got the one with the revised JAGUAR REAR BRAKE everyone was bitching about,and it stops like hitting a wall,SHOVELHEADS FOREVER
I have a 2017 FLTRU Road Glide Ultra, 2020 Road Glide Special and a 2006 1200 custom and a 2022 Iron and the local dealer keeps dangling the🥕 saying “We need your trades!” So they can insult me by de-valuing my bike and shoving their crap right up your butt thinking you’ll be better off with a new bike? I will never buy another new Harley-Davidson Motorcycle again. My 2017 Roadie will smoke they’re vaunted 117 motors! I have a 107 motor with 107 HP. Why would I want to slow down?
Why would I bother to trade up? When in all actuality I’d be taking a hit financially! If the MOCO stops making bikes tomorrow their bar and shield logo would still keep them in plenty of money for decades.
I’m waving goodbye to my local dealership and the company as a whole. I still have 4 Harley-Davidson motorcycles. I’m all set!
I wanted a Road King to replace my '04 Heritage and had the money for a '23 model. Best price at the dealership is 24,500 for the Road King Special which has no Chrome or Windshield (not what I wanted). $13k later I ride home on a '17 Road King with only 10k miles on it, in perfect condition, and a set of brand new tires with the nubs still on them. Now I still have over $10k in my pocket to pay sales tax and buy upgrades.
I saved over $10k and HD corperate made a whopping $0 on the sale. Good job on marketing the new bikes.
Buying new is the dumbest thing one can do, that goes for cars also.
@ Mike Thomas , so did they hit you up or try to on all the added fees like freight that should only be on new ,set up prep fees,market adjustment fees , over inflated warranties? Just curious and considering same , done with New !
@@jaimebedolla989 I think the only fee added was for getting the bike ready. I'm not sure what they called it but it was 500 bucks and they said it was a standard fee to all used bikes to cover stuff like new tires, oil change, ect...
I'm glad I bought my 2018 Road King when I did. Every time I go by my local dealer they try to get me to trade it for a new bike, and I keep telling them NO.
They keep trying to get me to trade my 2019 in. I keep telling them that I’m good.
Of course they are.... They are in the business of selling new bikes...
Yeah anything I’m looking at the used bikes and that means not necessarily Harley Davidson. Would I like a new Harley Davidson yes but not in todays market, that makes no sense not to mention all the upgrades you would have to do to a fairly new bike just to bring it up to todays competition standards. Money wise Harley Davidson is in trouble the deeper we get into this recession, that slight blip on will turn into shelf down by next month this time.
LMAO no one is begging you for your 5 yr old bike 😂
@@GhettoGatesss I know that. What they want is another person making that high monthly payment. That's what I won't trade my bike for.
Priced out a 2023 Street Glide standard this weekend. I tried asking a salesman what the price was but they wouldn't give it to me until they got all my personal information down and verified for whatever reason. After waiting a half hour they finally revealed their price was $28,800 for a standard street glide. With that much dealer markup I'll keep going to the Indian dealership a block away and buy used Harleys
That’s a shady dealer
The price isn't hanging on the handlebar?
@White Devil only on the used bikes nothing new from this year or last year hold overs.
@Cobra chicken that's crazy. My dealer has the prices hanging on the handlebars. I wouldn't waste my time if they tried that crap with me.
Plenty of used HD's at Indian dealers, should have a nice selection of second hand trash. 😂
Built into that msrp is also a profit for the dealer. The moco also reimburses the dealers setup fees and pays for shipping to the dealer.
Every dealer within 2hrs of my house (7 in total) add on additonal 5-10k markup regardless of model or year. So not only are they getting the profit built in profit of the msrp they are getting way more on dealer fees.
The dealers are hurting sales more than the moco is.
Having worked briefly for a dealer I can confirm they're easily the biggest thing stifling sales. HD jacking up prices and adding surcharges on new units is one thing, but dealers refusing to give straight up prices, adding artificial markup, adding in mandatory dealer warranties/service plans, and jerking customers around and trying to squeeze every last dime out of them as opposed to simply moving metal and keeping people happy makes the buying (and selling) experience miserable. That's not even getting into harassing people constantly about buying and trading. Every single time I've done so much as inquire about a price on a bike I've had to go through the annoyance of telling a salesman, aggressively, to F off and stop calling/texting/emailing me multiple times a day.
Is it fun to visit a dealer on an event day? Sure. Buying a Harley has become more stressful than buying a car, and people only deal with buying cars because 95% of people don't have a choice, they need one. Nobody NEEDS a Harley.
I would love to own a Harley Road King. I went into the dealership some weeks ago and could not believe how much they are asking. The sticker price, plus delivery fee, plus the assembly fee, plus there $500 Harley Fee, and the 9.5% Tennessee sales tax made the bike way unaffordable for me. I won't pay that much for a motorcycle.
I have seen harley prices go up like crazy the last 2 years… my local harley dealership has a sportster 48 for $14000😂😂… thats insane… they think their motorcycles are gods gift to man… I want a harley but Im not spending 20,000 on a street bob… I feel like they don’t want me to buy one cause their getting so greedy it makes me nauseas.
Seems like most are keeping their old Harleys longer, I’ll be doing the same as well
I think it"s a bad move by the company to drop the Electra Glide and Road King (Standard) that were the econo priced touring entry bikes for many riders...
I think HD may be on it's way to becoming a boutique brand. The prices will go up, way up, and the unit volume will go down. The wealthy will by them for purely speculative purposes like they do with exotic cars. They would have to change radically to remain a mainstream brand. I still believe that's possible.
Lol nah. They will always be around and people will always buy em. You all need to stopp kidding yourselves 😅
@@fvgc454ss The ones who are kidding themselves are the ones who think everyone would really rather have a Harley.
@@georgekrpan3181 spoken like a true hater 😅
That’s apparently what the CEO’s future directions strategy is, for real. So, bye bye HD, hi Indian and Triumph ! :-)
@@adods9824 news flash dum dums. The lowrider S is less than an Indian sport chief which only has a 2 valve motor, the Pan America is less than a GS1250 and the Sportster S with the 1250 rev max is less than an Indian Ftr1200 🤣🤣. So you dummies can complain about price the. Go out and buy the even bigger rip offs for more the money.
It baffles me that they still want you to pay $30k for their product and refuse to update the signal lights to LED's as standard safety equipment.
What does that have to do with safety? A halogen turn signal is bright enough.
I’ve worked in the automotive and motorcycle industries for decades. The dealers actually make a minimal amount of money per bike. The banks actually make the money. The dealers make their money on accessories, repairs, and service. Once you buy their product your hooked into it all. Back in the day when you could actually work on your stuff, it could be affordable. Now with everything computerized, fuel injected, etc, etc… your on their money train.
My 21 cvo street glide has had both rotors replaced, the battery and some fuses. Made as cheap as possible and expect some problems if you buy 1
Their finance chick had released a statement a while ago ,dkperformance read it, they said they didnt understand why dealers were surprised at bike prices as they want the brand to be a boutique bike. Think ESG
No joke...
Back in the 70s and 80s, whenever dad or one of my uncles wanted a new bike, they'd go to the Stealership and order them piece by piece, out of the Parts Department.
Back then, you could build one out of new parts for about one third of buying one off the showroom floor.
But FORGET THAT these days... Even parts are selling for overinflated prices.
This is exactly why I’m keeping my 2005 Superglide TC88, I can go anywhere a new bike will go & have no payments & carry liability insurance, my bike is comfortable & plenty fast enough for me, nice vid, I agree with all your points
Agree I'll keep my 06 King. 70k miles and still purrs down the road just fine. I'll keep her till I'm done riding life.
You can't go where my GS 1200 goes and before you jump on my comment, I loved Harley my entire life.
@Robert McGuckin you obviously haven't watched Million dollar Brogan! Haha 😄
@@davidchereneimmel8820I like Brogan, I've seen every episode. His platinum American Express gets him out of jams not his RoadKing.
@Robert McGuckin I'm not talking about where his money comes from. He beats the snot out of that HD King (road bike) and it takes it. That's what I was talking about.
The dealer mark ups are what is hurting sales. When you see msrp at 27k I understand 2-3k mark ups on touring. But 7k? Then you add tax and other fees, it comes out to 40k. That's 13k difference from msrp. That's a brand new Japanese bike. That's nearly 50% of msrp. Basically buying an HD for 150% it's price.
I agree, and then I remember Harley Corporate made the dealers build those big monstrosity of buildings with mucho more overhead costs. Hell, here in Oklahoma they tried putting restaurants in to help with overhead. Maybe they would do better with stripper poles!
Should be no markups
@@MarkR973 You hit the proverbial nail on the head!
Funny thing is there was a time when one could get a car or bike for 10% under MSRP not over. Still can with things like firearms. But that is because gun makers sell to the FFL at a price the FFL can add on a profit and still be under MSRP.
@@mikehenthorn1778 their greedy.. in my view.. when they take your trade they give you alot less.. probably better off buying used due to the bad experience and significant overhead they have to pay for
The best new Harley Davidson motorcycle is a used one. The one we drooled about years ago, when it came up as new, the legendary model that we finally get to try, the one that has millions of examples for sale at reasonable prices, the one that came up the year we were born... etcetera... and there are parts and knowledge to make it a fun process! Let the rich pay for the new ones, for now. And the competition just copy and offer that 1,500 discount adding obvious options on sub-capable plastic things with marginal better numbers. No new bike for me at this time. 🤘
That's why I have a 2013 FLTRU. At $10k + trade it wasn't a bad deal.
I have been riding just over 20 years. In all those years, I have purchased many new and used bikes, though mostly new. My very first new motorcycle was a 2004 Harley Dyna Low Rider that I learned to ride on. After 4 years, I came to hate it. I had about $23k into it when I sold it and couldnt wait to get rid of it. Looking back, I figured it was my first bike and I was allowed a costly mistake. I have purchased 2 more Harleys since then - both used. One of the Harleys was a 2016 Ultra Classic that had 5 miles on it for $18k. I sold it after 9 months because it was a total PoS. My current Harley is a 2019 Fat Boy 114 that I do like, am keeping and bought used. I also have a 2018 VMax I bought new. The HD dealer asked if I was going to trade it in on a new Harley and I laughed in his face.
@@glickmpb I'm glad you've had good enough jobs to be able to afford all those bikes. I still have my first Harley 1984 FXRT. I loved it till I had an accident. I rebuilt it but it just has never been the same. In 2007/8 I bought a 1986 FLTC for around $5500. It had very low miles and I put 70k on it before having an over heat issue on an EVO engine. It also needed a carb but I traded for the 2013 road guide I have now. The last two are my Sturgis annual pilgrimage bikes. I live in Alaska.
@@neildewitt2869 Im a systems engineer and make good money. However, the point is that Harley has lots of issues and thats why I only buy those bikes used.
@@glickmpb That doesn't make sense. I believe the most expensive Dyna in 2004 was the Wide Glide at 15k. You are saying you put another 23000 dollars into a bike you hated? That would make your investment in that bike 37 thousand dollars! Thats the price of a 2023 CVO.
Many dealerships are adding 1000's on top of MSRP which makes it even worse. Look up MSRP, then look at the price in the dealership. Many times you will find 3,000 to 15,000 added by the dealership on top of MSRP
Luckily I have a MSRP dealer locally. Its a problem and now that inventory is improving hopefully we will see that dealer markup come back in line...
Yep, a guy on one of the FB groups I'm part of was asking if the prices were as bad everywhere as they were in the Orlando dealership... He was looking at a 2023 RG Special and they told him it was going to be $40k + tax,title,doc and any extras he wanted. I put him in touch with my sales guy I bought from last month, he quoted the exact same bike to him for $34k out the door. I don't know if he made the trip up from FL to IL, but he'd have saved enough to buy a trailer to take the new bike back home, lol.
Excellent video! Harley-Davidson isn't broke, they are just still hanging onto the boom from the 90's. They are making money, just not what they were used to.
Thank you so much for the nuts-n-bolts facts. I don't have any idea if a $3000.00 profit per unit is out of line for Harley Davidson (capital cost's, materials, labor, advertising, etc., etc) but the end cost is what buyers see. Shame on dealers for jacking buyers around. There are a lot of bikes out there, so do your research and buy used.
Well, in 2001 I bought a new Road King though the military overseas sales program. I paid just a bit over $15K.
The month after I got home to the USA and took delivery of the bike in Killeen, TX, I rode down to Austin. The dealership there had the "same bike", color & options were identical, priced at just over $20K. You do that math.
The overseas sales program still turned a profit. So, HD mark-ups/profits per unit were super big then. I'm sure nothing has changed.
All the car dealers were doing the same the past few years with excuse of lack of electronic chips available.
What was HD excuse all these years?
Same as the recent auto pricing... People are willing to pay, so dealers continue to gouge.
I'm still riding my 2001 RK.
This is a salient narration of what the reports say and how the history plays into it.Very well done.
Thanks for the Vid.... Underneath what was presented is the P&L (profit/loss) sheet. The one that is not released to the public. 3 items that i suspect are out of line. General labor, advertising & office burden. Office burden is payroll & expense of all those who do the thinking, push paper and produce nothing in a company. General corporate model the last 20+ years has created many a top heavy company. I suspect HDMC is in that. With that in mind, IE.... $21000+ Heritage, actual cost per unit (minus corp/office burden, union labor, and advertising), I suspect is around $5000 per unit. The product no longer sells itself, thus the big advertising push. Resell is artificially propped up at the moment, once that collapses, I suspect a larger fall in units sold. IMO, HDMC as a value product has declined significantly. Bottom line.... no new bike for me this year.
Yeah we are on same page about getting a new bike this year… I think there is probably a lot of room for cost cutting
Their new ceo's business plan was literally to transition into a luxury brand
I'm super happy I bought my 2019 Harley Davidson Road King when I did...👍👍👍
In 2019 I bought a New RG Special, when I picked up bike and went home, the actual dealer paperwork was in saddlebag, Harley sold bike to dealer at around 22,995 and msrp was 27,995 so this is 5 k markup, I can see now how some dealers can throw in some accessories for free, If Harley can make 3500 a bike and dealer 3500 a bike its a win win . It would be nice to be able to buy any streetglide and RG for around 20 k .
Thanks for the breakdown of something i otherwise would have probably never even seen. Nice work
My dad was a Honda dealer in central Texas for many years. We were told by Honda that dealers made 15%. To stay competitive, 7-8% is all we made.
Always, always, always buy Harley Davidsons used. If you were to buy Harleys new biggest at somewhere around 50k. Most Harleys can be bought around 5k to 7k. They'll be about 10 years old, well taken care of with service records and about 13 to 18 thousand miles in the odometer. I know because I've done this. I've paid 5k for any one of my bikes. For 50k I got 10 bikes!
Yup. Not to mention they aren't innovating/changing enough to justify the cost of new at this new "premium" they want, not with the availability of used units out there.
They were on the right track offering the base model Electra Glide Standard. I never saw one last long on the floor then they removed it from the line-up. I would have put the 114 and chrome on the model and sold it as cheaply as possible.
Great info . New Harley Riders AR like the alligator shirt wearing yuppies from the 80s except now they have beards and leather but they're still had the same attitude. Thanks for sharing✌️
Almost pulled the trigger on a new Roadking Special last year but sleazy tactics made me keep my BMW. Dealer asked me about financing 10 damn times. And 10 damn times I told them I would walk across the street to my credit union and bring back a check. Almost just left after that. I stuck in there to the invoice write-up when I discovered there were some fancy worded dealer fees that were called dealer prep in one spot and some exotic transport fee in another spot. Basically it was just bullshit to try and rip me off for about $2500.00 extra. I told the salesman this is the same thing here as it is there, just with a different name. He blushed and admitted most people don't usually catch that. They came back with an offer to remove all of the $2500.00 duplicate fees and freight charges to boot. I said ok, go tell your manager we have a deal. Salesmen went to tell manager we had a deal and I proceeded to walk out and ride away on what I rode in on. Buying an American made motorcycle should feel like buying a $200.00 dinner; satisfying and worth every penny. It should not be like buying a 1994 Toyota Tacoma off of Lucky Larry's Used Car Emporium.
I’ll hang on to my old TriGlide till the wheels fall off 😎👍
Thats what my wide says about her 2009 Tri Glide
I love the brand. I support HD, but where do you draw the line? I’ll stick to my 05 Dyna Low Rider and 2016 Road Glide Special. Maybe a used Low Rider ST one day.
Last weekend if looked at two Tri Glides. A 19 and a 22 leftover. (Do to a foot and ankle injury from 2 years ago)After a few hours they came down to MSRP on the 22, a better deal than the 19. But, still out of my price range.
Excellent vid Mike so I brought all these thumbs ups for ya algorithms fam 👉💫👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼💚💚💚🦾
Nothing wrong with old iron in fact I prefer it it’s set up to my liking!! And if you have your heart set on a new one just wait a year when the new Rubs find out it’s not for them!!
Appreciate your effort Mike but this new erra is way over my head. I just have to be happy going around the block on my old EVO.
Nothing wrong with a Evo!
Of that $3500 profit average per motorcycle don't forget they also have $750 to $1200 surcharge which makes part of that profit per unit. Another reasons is the special paint offerings are very high profit margin items.
The excess bikes in the inventory chain put them up to ninety days of supply. The stock holders will be calling Zeist on the carpet because of the inventory issues and Wall Street will notice if Q1 numbers don't show real sales increases.
Harley is already importing from China a built in China designed by a Chinese subsidiary - X350 and X350RA - they claim i won't be sold here but it will be the first Harley many new riders get to ride because it is in the Rider Academy
edit: there was rumor they cut the dealer hold back in 2022 to keep more profits for themselves.
As for pricing... they need to stop with the surcharge and they will need to encourage dealers to sell bikes below MSRP by giving them money to do so. Harley cannot have another quarter or two of increasing supply without undoing all the work to reduce that number since 2019. Simply put they will have to shut down production and have layoffs and the market will punish them hard.
Harley lost over ten percent of the North American sales from 2021 to 2022 all the while adding over thirteen thousand bikes to their dealers inventory. Again, they have ninety plus days of inventory !!!!
I would assume the surcharge is figured into the per unit calculation, at this point it is just another fee so it might as well be added in to the MSRP, I don't see it going away....
Oh it is part of the profit, the point being that if they are averaging $3500 per bike then that means over twenty percent of the profit is because of the surcharge which leads to the next point, without it they would not show sufficient improvement to warrant their stock price
Yep, Harley only wants to paint bikes black, you want a color, how dare you so pay more!
@@billsinclair313 Yeah as Plebian as buying an old Model T Ford from 1908. Dumbest color out there when most people can't ride all winter long, and black is hot as f*ck in the summer time, when the days are long enough to go to Sturgis or have vacation time to do a summer ride somewhere while touring on a bike. Absolute worst choice.
This was completely on the spot.
There’s no middle ground in there.
Matt Levatich strategy wasn’t all wrong, he wanted to bring more new riders into the brand… and tried his best with reducing HD margin and creating some entry level bikes (the street family).
The other problem he faced was that the market was flooded with used harleys that were more affordable than a brand new one.
On the other hand, Zeitz tried to correct the course but I do agree with you that his vision of a boutique product is not what the average HD riders (guys like you and I) want. And I can tell you that even the rich guys don’t want that too…. Just remember the 90’s
Bring profitability to investors is a short term solution in my opinion… in the end, Zeitz will have to cater to the regular riders that move this wheel.
Thanks! I wish I had the perfect solution but then I would probably be a CEO somewhere and not doing what I do
As this video proves yet again, buy the stock, not the bike.
It's a bit like a bank. Don't put your money in the bank, buy shares in it.
I have a new 2023 anniversary Tri-Glide. I do my own work and I just did my 5000-mile inspection. I found the front axle pinch bolt was stripped out in the socket. The brake fluid had almost 4% water content. The heat deflectors didn't have the special nuts crimped, so the lower screws were doing nothing. The spark plug wires were not tie strapped to the frame under the seat area. The adjuster on the rear axle was 3/16" wider on the right side compared to the left side and the triple tree is a few degrees to the right when the front wheel is straight. The ground strap in the trunk was disconnected. So I would say that Harley's quality control is not there.
This year will be very telling of things to come. The buying season is set to kick off in about a month and I think we’ll know by the fall which way H-D is headed. It will be interesting to me to see what models they will be bringing out this year. If it’s actually new models or paint schemes on the same old stuff. If it’s the latter they’re probably in trouble. When companies over emphasize what their stock price is and forget about the end consumer bad things usually happen. Just take a look at Ford, they are down to only making ONE car for the US market and a little over 50% of their sales are overseas. H-D overseas sales are strictly boutique sales. H-D’s stock price going up by 250% in 2 years is great for investors, let us hope they haven’t sacrificed the business on the altar of Wall Street.
stay tuned next week, I hear things...
I agree with you on all points. Here in Europe, the only people who can pay for these bikes are those who could buy an E-class Mercedes Benz with all the extras. Otherwise the only folks you see riding Harleys are those who have had their Sportster for a long time and actually do most of their maintenance jobs.
HD is making the brand as desirable as ever because they are great at marketing. However, as a dude in his 30s I am not as impressionable anymore. I want to enjoy the ride first, and looking like a rock and roller comes in at second place. That is why Royal Enfield is appealing to me for its straightforwardness and reliability.
@@adriamillasluque I really think Harley could make gains in the global market with the Revolution Max power plant. I’m by no means an expert on all the regulations that you guys have but Harley should be able to navigate those no problem. I wish they would have partnered with an Indian company instead of the Chinese to build a small displacement bike. My daughter has a Husqvarna Svartpilen 401 built by Bajaj and like your Royal Enfield the quality is top notch.
@@sarider6294 Same thoughts here. I hope you enjoy going on motorcycle ride with your daughter and you both have lots of fun!
That would be :
- Covid economic bounce back.
- Saved up Covid travel overseas money. Not spent.
- Covid superannuation withdrawal. Allowed in Australia.
- Covid survival reward purchase. I survived, life is short, buy a toy!
- Covid business profits.
- Covid tax returns / write offs. More tax $ floating around.
My take on it. Not sustainable profit making IMHO.
Same here on the final conclusion. I'll just stay where I'm at, and keep them running. I believe it's certainly the price that keeps the sales from what they could be. The greedy share holders are so out of touch with the consumer.
I ride with die hard Harley people who are starting to look at Indian and are interested to see what the new Buell does. Harley decides what they want to do and who they want to market too, we decide what we want to buy. If Indian and Buell ever get more service and sale locations, it will be interesting to see how that impacts HD. Thanks Mike.
Right now, it’s hard for me to think about an Indian being anything but a reproduction knock off of the old Indian. They are a Polaris. Polaris just bought the rights to the Indian brand and reproduced them. Let’s remember, Indians are very expensive too. I’m surprised woke culture has let them keep that name.
@@jroberts1962 They've already had to ditch the war bonnet... I'm sure its just a matter of time before the indian head logo and name get changed.
I think BMW has a better chance of gaining ground then anyone else in the US marketshare, go ride an R18!
It only took Harley Davidson 120 Years to build the Company and Dealership Network we have today. Shouldn’t take Indian and Buell long to get there.
@@aucklandsadventures don’t forget BMW…
Road King and Road Glide keep HD running.
HD has started a campaign years ago to increase sales of their RG praising it as the best bike you'll put the most miles on it handles better it's more stable in wind. Why would they do this? Simple it costs less to assemble but they charge the same price.
Mike everything with HD has increased across the board , I was having sticker shock when the price of a 120 anniversary hat was $45.00 not to mention the price of a SGS at $28,000 when i paid $22,000 for my 2016 SGS and also look at parts prices plus the dealership wanted $25.00 for the parts catalog this year
$95 for a long sleeve plaid shirt. $55 for a long sleeve T.
Crazy
Just a thought for consideration...$22,000 in 2016 is equivalent on an inflation adjusted basis to $27,600 for a bike in 2023 with better performance and tech. Have they really gone up that much?
@@motormichael5831yes because wages have gone down in that time making them relatively much more expensive. The cheapest HD in the UK is nearly 100% of the average take home salary and a toy is never a priority for someone who needs food, shelter, clothing etc
The dilemma you have as an owner and the problem that the company now has; is that if you initially choose wisely with your purchase, why would you ever want to buy another, certainly not an Anniversary Fat Boy at a £5,200.00 premium here in the UK
@@gregrose6915 Buy a Pendleton wool shirt, instead of cotton flannel, for that kind of money.
This is where Indian should be jumping to increase sales by offering low priced bikes, instead they seem to be higher priced when you compare models from both companies.
Indian and Harley are both expensive, but for me, i will buy a Harley before an Indian, been there and done that when Polaris reincarnated the dead brand. dealer service is crap at Indian which is why i said screw it and sold my Indian and Victory and went back to Harley
Most Indian dealerships are mom and pop shops and they stock minimal products, every thing you want yo have to order and it will come in a couple weeks if you are lucky, i will stick to my Harley's
So true. Seems like Indian could use this to their advantage and undercut Harley on something aggressive, smaller displacement, and AFFORDABLE, but they seem to be playing “follow the leader” with HD instead?
Agreed. Indian should be fighting for the market share under Harley but instead it’s a race to the top of the price range.
@@snakebite6511 mom and pop > megalow mart
@@snakebite6511 I hear ya.
With cars or SUVs or pickups going for $40-50g I’m not surprised baggers are $25g plus
I agree that HD would do well to down price an entry level Sportster. I love the Evos and don’t like the new ones. I think they failed a new Sportster design. Pan America is doing well. It’s still a seasonal and recreation luxury .
Harley is going to implode into itself . People just can't afford toys nowadays . Especially way over priced toys .
Spot on !
I love my Harley and I'll always keep her. That being said, a Triumph Rocket 3R is looking really good about now for my second bike. I want a SGS but don't feel like dumping another 5k into the motor/intake/tune only to get about 115-120hp if I'm lucky when the Rocket comes stock with 165hp/165lbs/feet
Or buy a Indian challenger and make those numbers already. A SGS and rocket 3 are apples to oranges in every category.
@@jasonp1177 agreed, but I'd prefer the Rocket 3. The Indian still doesn't make the same numbers that the Rocket 3 does. The new Challenger has 122hp.
If I were to buy today, it would be a Rocket3. Harley is designed to be a starter bike, to the point you are adding thousands in accessories and upgrades in addition to the high starting price. The initial purchase is only the beginning. Harley is average at best, and the sound and feel are held way above performance and handling and engineering. I don't give a crap about buying what the other sheeple feel they have to buy; I'd go for the 150/150 rear wheel numbers of the R3; and I think they sound way meaner than any big twin.
@Blair Taylor 100% agree. My Harley looks and sounds amazing, but the Rocket 3 looks great and has just as amazing performance that Harley just can't touch.
The dealer makes a minimum of $5000. On The bikes. It's crazy how much my owner makes compared to us salesman makes.
Your observation about HD reducing the number of lower priced models by 30% is interesting. Locally, we see the lower price point gap on the dealer's showroom floor being filled with nice but still pricey used bikes while the motor company reduces new bike production at the same time. This has helped reduce depreciation rates thereby allowing owners to retain resale value longer, at least for now. For example, I am astonished (and pleased) when I see that a similarly appointed used 2021Tri-Glide is selling for more than what I paid for mine in 2021. So for the time being we might actually be able to sell our concerned wives on the idea that buying a HD motorcycle is actually an "investment."
Excellent summary...thanks.
I think the Harley used bike market is going to explode. Guess I am going to hold on to my 2009 Road Glide.
pricing themselves out of business.. People like me are keeping their older models. They do need an affordable entry level big twin.
I know in this economy I am....
@@RidingintheOzarks mike I bought my 2019 CVO S/G used with 2700 miles on it , it was sold new 8 months prior and I paid $31,000 for it , I feel like i got a great deal compared to prices now there’s definitely not a new bike in my future
The only thing the new lineup and prices are inspiring me to do is NOT walk into a Harley dealership. I used to love to browse on new bikes each year and see the new lineups in person but not anymore. This new Harley-Davidson culture does nothing for me. I'll either keep the Harley I've got or move on to another brand.
When i bought my new 2018 Road Glide Special they were making appx. $5,000 profit on baggers.
Harley has only started to sell the anniversary bikes so I’m sure the motor co is making at least 2/3 more per unit of the extra they added to those units. They are controlling new inventory to artificially keep prices high. This is why most of us will be buying used (like myself) but at some point that market will no longer be available. The apple model will not be sustainable in the long term. The brand of the working man is a thing of the past.
I think the economy is catching up and demand is going to dip, I want them to survive but I am afraid they are going to be for upper class incomes only soon if things don't change... This may lead to a resurgance of used bike builds if aftermarket can keep up...
Thank you for the very interesting and informative information
Glad it was helpful!
Perfect sum up 😊👍🙏
This same pricing scenario can be applied to the majority of industries in the US today. Cost of goods up but instead of keeping same GP parameters companies are raising those also adding to the inflation numbers. C
On the side note. This is very interesting. I want them to thrive. But they need to realize the need to shift from making profit to selling more affordable unit.
Shift? Without profits you have no business. All Business’s life blood is is about making profit. Even what you say is “affordable units”. These have to be profitable. Affordability to you or someone else, still has to be profitable for a business, or it It goes by-by.
@@roadglide facts
I wanted to move up to a touring chassis from my '17 Sportster 1200T. With the Electra Glide Standard and Road King gone, I'm going to be looking at used ones. The two bikes I was interested in are gone. Can you say 'used'? I know I can.
So the price was why I went with a 2006 Softail and not a new bike.
The cost of replacing shock seals drove me to do the job myself.
For things I can't do I won't have it done at a dealership.
You're on point. I'm going to wait until HD is hard up and drops rates and prices. If not I will jump ship. I'm already paying top dollar for what I'm getting. I'm actually paying for old technology because new technology is unreliable and cost more service ( New CVO's).
Excellent delivery of information!
Thank you kindly!
The msrp isn’t the problem… even if the dealer asked 2 k above msrp I don’t think it would be problem….it’s when the dealer puts a tag on the bike for 10-12k above msrp this is a problem…for most people going to buy a major product like this will do a little research…and when they see this it will put them off…I just bought a new bike.. I looked at Harley first and saw saw this and decided to go with a different brand…I also do some investing…. I won’t buy into harley stock…I think this practice from the dealers will put to many people off…last year for the first time in a long time they sold under 200,000 bikes…. I think it will be even worse for them this year… just my opinion….
Referring to the commercial that was on before the video, at least for me. The electronic ab stimulator. Those have been around for ages. Bruce Lee used a primitive and powerful version and his training, and my March lunch training I used and on the market version in the 90s. This is not special forces simulated or anything, it’s been around for a long damn time. And it really doesn’t work that well unless you are seriously stimulating the muscles and these little ones don’t have the juice for that.
FYI Those commercials/ads are placed by google and could be a different ad for every viewer. Creators have no control over what ads are placed on the videos. That said I know what your talking about LOL
Once the consumer starts talking about how much money they're making them you might run into problems
Buying American should be attainable by all.
Profit is a good thing. Great video
I have been saying for a few years that Harley Davidson is on a death spiral. When any business doesn’t care about their primary consumers and doesn’t target their products for their primary consumers, they cannot continue to survive over the long run.
I will probably only buy from a individual, and finance through my home town bank, next time...
Yeah HDFS is not friendly when it comes rates, but they will approve you…
yeah. that was zeits(or however you spell it) plan. make it a luxury brand...he is succeeding nothing is going to change...except less dealers I think. I have a 2012 street glide it's great. and if I wanted a lexus I'd have to own an old one as well. Bentley is profitable selling very few vehicles a year its a solid business plan
They have already lost so many old dealers like Rocky Mountain (family owned 43 years in biz) and Daytona Harley (sold to investment group) and three dealerships in Texas sold to a large automobile group, Harley wants corporate ownership of many dealers, less companies to deal with and we all know how we love to deal with and purchase Automobiles, yech!
i own a few HD's and good on them, its a business, as are the dealers...
I have been riding my old 99 Heritage for over a decade now, I am its second owner. It has been a great bike and still is, however it does not cover my motorcycle needs now. I need an adventure bike, I was going to get the Pan Am but with the loads of issues I had been reading about I was not going to go that route, especially since I have seen the price of one climb to just shy of $30,000.00 here now. Also my local deal closed it's doors here several years ago now. They have priced themselves out of range for me anyway now. Last fall I ordered a new Honda Africa Twin AS and it is waiting at the dealer for me till the snow goes away here and I can ride it home. And $7500.00 saved over a Pan Am that I felt I couldn't trust to get very far away from a dealership with. I can see Harley becoming a boutique brand sadly.
Welcome to the HD family!!
Only if you knew what the profit kick back is from just interest that they get back from banks. 2500-5000$
H-D I think is around to stay, especially with Indian as a direct competitor. Indian had a good thing going pre-pandemic being priced under H-D for equivalent bikes, but now they're priced about the same. I've had 2 H-Ds before and 2 Indians before my current bike. Another Harley. Bought new. I actually got it right at MSRP even considering freight and setup. The reason? H-D seems to be the more willing brand to stand behind their product. Indian being owned by Polaris, was less understanding when a brand new bike I had from Jan 21 until Nov 21 had issues from the day after I bought it and only spent about 3 months in my possession, while spending the rest of it at one dealer or another for repairs.
Harley charges more to ship a motorcycle 100 miles , than Ford charges to ship a F-150 from 6 states away. You can expect an out the door price to be $3 to 4,000 more than the factory's already insane MSRP list price.
Yea yea yea. But theres still deals if ya look for them. So many just pay those posted prices, so why not. My new 22 FLTRK black on blackout.was posted for 34k. Got it for 27,712. Shop around !!
What goes up must come down. Very simple.
Appreciate your homework...
Thanks!
More profit per unit, fewer units sold each year is not a sustainable business model.
Especially in an economy where your average Joe (which was supposed to be your bread and butter customer) has less and less disposable income.
I’ve owned 6 Harley Davidson all but one had a salvage title and I am 28 years old. I don’t make crazy money but it’s mind blowing how many grown men complain about the price point and will probably die never reaching that. You’re not just buying a motorcycle your getting an entry to one of the best industries in motor sports. No one is gonna care of that old Honda or Yamaha when you are gone but not a Harley. If it was easy everyone would have one. 120 years and 120 more
I would like to know why Harley-Davidson didn't bring the road glide 3 to the UK please
That’s why I switched and bought a brand new fully loaded vstrom 1050 for 13 grand 😂
I'll keep my box stock 2500 buck 72 ElectraGlide I bought in 1980, and my 97 WideGlide I bought for 3 grand 6yrs ago.
HD is pricing themselves right out of the game, after pricing a new street glide at around 30k I will ride my 94 wide glide till the wheels fall off it!
Still have my 1979 flh , runs great , bought it in 1979 , now at nearly 70 years old it’s my last one ,refuse to pay the ridiculous price on new one.
sounds about right
I want 2c hd survive and thrive...
If you ask the average consumer, price increases should have stopped in 2003. For most folks, the Sportsters should be out the door well under $10k. Softails should be $12,500. Baggers at $15k, and the CVO line should never be over $25,000. As much as we would love to live in that fantasy, it's just not reality.
I remember Harley advertising a brand new Sporty for $5995. My 2003 1200c was 10k. They're effectively pushing the bikes out of reach for the "average" consumer.
Yeah, HD is pricing me out of their lineup. It's a shame, they aren't going to be adding new customers in my opinion.