When calculating Counter Damage, the game doesn't know how to calculate the damage based on the Potion heal, so instead it rerolls the attack used in the previous turn (in this case iron tail) and calculates the damage based on that roll, that's why the damage is inconsistent, because it's based on a second reroll.
Yeah, i also figured it had to do with the Random aspect of damage calculations. Unless it is a fixed dmg move there seems to always be a 15% range applied to attacks. So it can do either do the absolute maximum or 85% at the lowest. The reroll might have just been a 100% and that caused increased damage thst was then countered. At least thats how i understood it.
@@eyalinbar4845 If you want a bit more technical detail, When counter is used it looks for the opponents last used attack, meaning that, as far as counter is concerned, using a potion is the same as skipping a turn from switching out or some 2 turn moves, so the game searches the previous turn for the actual last attack used, but because Counter's damage calculations have to happen on the same turn the game gets confused and basically "pretends" to attack with the same move again, which rerolls the damage.
If you consider how a game is coded (= step by step in a certain order), I guess it is way more likely that it occurs because of the coding rules order. I pointed it out in another comment on here. I guess the coding rules order are like that: 1. Move selection and damage calculation of all regular moves 2. Damage calculation of Counter & Mirror Coat 3. Move selection and damage calculation of Metronome 4. Item selection This explains why Counter doesn't work on Metronome and why it deals damage depending on the status afflictions (in this case the second Counter deals less damage because in the first case his defense was lowered before).
@@philipsworld678 to answer your last point, Counter's damage is calculated based on how much HP you lost, so yeah, it does take into consideration stat changes. It's also why it is technically possible for counter to take recoil damage into consideration, or counter the enemy's counter. (This is also why Wobuffet, having high HP but low defences, is an excellent user of those moves) Metronome works really weird in gens 1 and 2, and there's a million reasons why Counter wouldn't work on it and none of them would surprise me.
@@magicball3201 it’s cause now they’re models not sprites. They don’t texture them like shadows anymore because that’s what lighting is for… it’s not normal practice for models…and models tend to represent things as they actually are more than sprites. Sprites don’t have to have as consistent of a form which leads to exaggerated poses. Models generally don’t have that same flexibility if things deform too much. You’d likely have to make several models depending on what software you’re using (how parametric it is)
@@hi-ougidemonfang HyperDelta was more talking about colors being good, I about poses. Look at Feraligatr's gen two sprite, it has a personality. In gen 6+, it just awkwardly stands there. Some pokemon have good models. Most have uninteresting designs for the mainline games. I care because I remember seeing Machamp's DP sprite and think that looked cool, so I used a Machop (not understanding trade evolutions because I was 6). Nowadays, Machamp looks awful as a model, at least compared to the sprites. Game Freak knows how to get good models. Battle Revolution they passed modeling duty off to another company, and while those models are far from perfect, they're pretty good, especially for both it's time and it was on the Wii.
Same, was my fave gen. Then Ruby and Sapphire came out with a polished look and feel that kind of made Legendaries look like mecha gundam warriors. Even worse in DP. I like the animal-ly look more. GSC ftw.
'I can't believe i'm actually trying this' from the man, that beat Platinum with Shedinja, BDSP with Bidoof, FRLG with Pichu and nearly every game with Magicarp. We're in for a treat.
At least these Pokémon can do damage for themselves. Just started watching, but: -Physical/Special split can be a pain in the older games -Status moves are out of the question -Destiny Bond, in a solo run, is useless But oh well, jrose is a god so we need to take that into account
@@jesseholland261 likely so, but TFS was referencing something in actual DBZ. Localization of the show didn’t want to mention hell or any religious stuff, so they changed the word HELL on Goz and Mez’s clothes to HFIL and called it Home For Infinite Losers as a result. So technically, anyone who has seen that localization of DBZ could have made the same statement while having never seen TFS.
"Switching and using a multi-turn move will not reset the last amount of damage done, allowing Counter to counter itself as well as self-inflicted recoil damage. If a HP-restoring or battle item is used on the opponent during the same round that Counter is used, Counter will counter the item. " This is only in the generation 1 documentation and not gen 2, but i feel it explains the glitch.
@@archivelibrarian6818 Most definitely. What I think happened is that Counter took the damage from the last Iron Tail and used it in the calculation for the glitch damage but ALSO used the defense drop on Wobbuffet in the calculation. This would explain why the glitch damage oneshot the first time but not the second time (since the calculation would deal more damage with a defense drop). The defense drop is the only difference between the two attempts, which is why I think it matters.
@@justsomejojo Also the reason the 2nd time the 2nd Counter dealt more damage is because Counter calculates the damage from Iron Tail again & gets a higher roll on the range. That's my theory of it at least
If an enemy trainer uses a battle item, he/she has still to choose one of the four moves first (code rules of the game). Because of this glitch, this move gets obviously countered I guess. Jasmine selected Iron Tail in both cases, but got the defense drop in the first case, so the first countered Iron Tail (aka hyper potion) deals a lot more damage.
This was a great challenge. The massive health pool from the gimmick pokemon actually did it justice. Leftovers is very overpowered when you have such high hp. For a second there I thought you were gonna hit 600 hp. Haha
@ you're actually incorrect. It heals 1/16th of your hp every turn. Since wobbuffet had almost 600 hp it was healing about 37 hp per turn. And since struggle was typeless in gen 2, 1/4 of the damage was recoiled back to the user. Doesn't help all that much. But since struggle was dealing a decent amount of damage, every 4 damage wobbufet was dealing he would take back 1 damage. In total it could deal about anout 148 damage to negate the effect of leftovers not accounting for damage made by the opponent. 37 hp is a lot with leftovers.
@@timothymclean I think you mean early gens. Gen 4? Definitely by 5, struggle did 1/4 of your total health in recoil damage no matter the damage you do. Kills don't prevent it (to my knowledge) so gimmick pokemon are kinda fucked, since they're a Gimmick and not just a shitty stats pokemon. So reusable tm's won't help
I don't quite know how to explain it but with most youtube channels that do some sort of reoccuring video series, i find myself getting incredibly bored very quickly. Jrose on the other hand entertains me every video non stop. Couldn't tell you why but thank you Jrose very much for making these! Your videos are entertaining and have gotten me through some lonely nights when there was no one else there
Similar comments to yours keep popping up under Jrose videos, and I absolutely agree! I watched him beat Red/Blue over 70 times at this point and never once did it get boring. I really don't know what it is exactly and how he pulls it off.
Karen: "I see your Wobbuffet is using Struggle! Let's make sure it can't anymore! Gengar! Use Spite!" COUNTER: "How did you become the leader of the Elite Four again?"
Well, the current champion and previous leader of the elite four is well-known for spamming Agility against random poison pokemon for no reason, so it's a step up from that...
Disappointing that most of the run became "level up enough to spam Struggle to win", still an interesting watch though and at least Red required more strategy.
He could have try it a bit in the league and then give up and go with struggle. I mean I suspect that even one counter in a hyper beam with lance may have 1HKO a few pokemon. We may never know.
@@graydanger No, he would have run out of HP. He would have had to guess perfectly over and over. Hyper Beam is only doing about 50 hp of damage to a level 96 Wobbuffet so it would survive a Counter. He also has to deal with Dragonite using Thunder Wave and Pokemon switching between special and physical attacks randomly. It would just be a bunch of coin flips. He doesn't use Double Team because of this reason. It would be an extreme statistical outlier for him to actually guess right enough to win. But it would just be guessing. Luck. No strategy at all.
Brute forcing his way with Struggle through the E4 was definitely the lamest part of the run. I get why it had to be done, but Struggle spam is just not interesting to watch.
@@retloclive9118 It reminded me of Pikasprey's GSC Ditto run, just good examples of why the most limited pokemon often don't make for the most interesting challenges (at least with the Magikarp runs that allowed items, there was some more strategy involved with managing your item use).
For the first rival fight, you really should have left yourself with exactly 1 safeguard. Prevents Ghastly from sleeping or paraing you, likely also prevents the confusion from Zubat. Keeping a single safeguard is really good for struggle strats. Strats like that are probably applicable to a number of Wobbuffets challenges. Basically manipulating your PP to be just where you want it to be - like no pp for the counter that isnt useful, 2 for Safeguard. Means you can set up enough safeguard to get you through and you have your good countering move for the battle and, once used up, you get right into struggle instead of having a bunch of useless pp. And vs Whitney.. honestly, metronome rng WILL happen sooner or later. That's not much of a question. Aside from bellydrum luck, explosion and self-destruct are in the pool for metronome, as far as I am aware - and likely a few others I haven't thought about. Just keep safeguard up(so random status effects don't fuck you up) and you should be able to do it in a timely manner... well, "timely" for Wobbuffet.
19:47 When a trainer uses a hyper potion the games gets confused to what damage should go to steelix so it rerolles the previous move here was iron tail and determines the damade from there Love you vids
Yep, was about to comment this. counter takes in consideration the last move the opponent's pokemon used, regardless if the trainer used a potion or no.
Just started the video, my prediction is that he’s gonna have to Struggle a lot. EDIT: 18:40 All I can picture in my head is Wobbuffet slapping the potion out of Jasmine’s hand and backhanding the Steelix in one motion.
If the last attack used in memory was a Normal or Fighting type move, was not Counter and dealt damage (even if it was from another battle) and the opponent uses a healing item, Counter will deal twice as much damage as the last attack and it looks like the user is countering a healing item. has been more or less "known" for about 7 years at this point. On the Glitchcity wiki you can see it being mentioned the first time in 2017
I love Jrose’s share of wisdom for Bugsy Jrose: “I just have to knock out his Kakuna before he knocks out me” Me:…. Well yeah Jrose. That’s like the whole point of this game.
Just saw the title, and my heart filled with excitement, doubt, intrigue and adrenaline. I grabbed my Indiana Jones hat, my whip, orchestral horns started playing in my brain. I know JRose and I and up for an adventure that will change us forever. An unexpectedly long adventure across Johto full of struggles and unforeseen encounters. But, heck, this is what I came for. You're never too old for a fun, good aventure. Let's dive in, my friend.
It's interesting to compare struggle's recoil with counter/mirror coat. They counter double the damage it takes, while struggle takes 1/4 recoil. Either way you need to trade HP for damage, which struggle gives at a better rate, 4 damage to the enemy for 1 damage to wobbuffet. But, that's not taking into account enemy attacks. Counters are only taking the damage you would be taking anyway, while struggle is additional damage.
But usually the damage Struggle deals is more than double the damage Wobbuffet receives. Usually, since Struggle takes the opponent's defense into account while Counter and Mirror Coat, as we saw in the glitch Jrose... encountered, only uses Wobbuffet's.
@@yousefffg Yeah, I have no idea why they haven't at least given Bide to Wobbuffet. Yes, it's two to three turns of charging instead of instant damage, but it works regardless of move type. Except ghost, but even then it works on ghosts anyway in gens 1 and 4.
@Timothy McLean I think it's more likely they wanted to make it tense to fight AGAINST the move combo, rather than considering the challenge of using it yourself. The games weren't originally balanced around pvp, as that was only supposed to be a fun side element, and they actively wanted to avoid a real-world competitive scene, so most pokemon were balanced for in game use.
In one of these Gold and Silver runs, you should try to use the Berserk Gene. You can find it on where Cerulean Cave was supposed to be. It raises your attack by 2 stages, but it confuses your Pokémon for 255 turns. It's essentially a Swagger that activates when you enter a battle.
@Velvet Butterfly Nope, it’s a hidden item you can normally obtain. It would make sense for Mewtwo to hold it as it’s clearly connected to it like the Sacred Ash is to Ho-Oh, but it’s just invisible somewhere near Cerulean Cave instead. Wasn’t until Detective Pikachu (the game, not the movie) that this item was ever elaborated on.
@@rainpooper7088 Mewtwo actually does hold it if you glitch, hack, or cheat one into a wild encounter, but due to how the Berserk Gene works, it's just instantly consumed.
It's a secret in the sense that nothing points towards its existence aside from the dowsing machine, and it's basically an easter egg for where the berserking mewtwo from gen 1 used to be.@@almightyk11
Just an idea for Rival 2 (I've not watched the whole video yet, just up to that part) did you consider using all PP except for a single safeguard? This would protect against the Ghastly sending you to sleep and the Zubat confusing you
I wish you would have tried Will with Counter strategies more then once, as the first battle you just neglected safeguard too much. That being said, you could have entered with 1 pp on safeguard to go from safeguard into struggle and avoid the confusion hell
Yeah, and I feel the same for Bruno and the Champion. At Bruno, he struggles immensely and complains about having to gain 13 levels, yet he never tries Counter. At 46:38 he explains that he *needs* Struggle for Karen and he'd "have to manage our power points extremely carefully", yet it's very likely that if he used an Ether to restore 10 PP before Bruno, he would still use all or most of the moves by the end of the battle, and he has to attack 14 times in that winning battle anyways. As for the Champion, he'd rather do multiple attempts at level 100 than even *try* Counter strats just once. He explains that it would become too luck-based, yet at 55:25 he says "there's honestly just so much luck involved, every time I'm paralyzed and can't attack, it's just one more opportunity for Lance to get an attack on me". If he's using Counter/Mirror Move, then he's also able to use Safeguard, eliminating the luck that he has to have in his current strategy.
@@Ultimaximus it is a common problem of many recent runs, he get stubborn about a certain strat and if it fail he grind instead of trying another one. And i find it particoularly aggravating when the ranking are invokved because certain mons were using a clearly suboptimal strat.
@@Ultimaximus it's also a generally dumb self imposed challenge that doesn't really matter and going back to consume PP, deciding when to save, when you should reset and when you should just let yourself get knocked out is just dumb, mixed attackers are way trickier and more annoying than just spamming A and hoping to not get too much bad luck with status so he clearly prefers the latter to waste less time, afterall the player's sanity is a factor to take into consideration in challenges like this
@@Ultimaximus Yeah. Tbh there isn't really a huge amount of point in using Wobbuffet if you're not going to actually use its core gimmick in any battle vs any Elite 4 member. At that point it's not "can you beat the game using Wobbuffet's specific strategy?" and instead just "can you beat the game using a mon with 33 base attack?". The first question is potentially interesting to watch. The second question is simply a case of "Yes, if you grind enough and do nothing but press 'A' in every battle you'll eventually win", but that is just fundamentally disinteresting. I have historically really enjoy JRose's content, and I understand the TH-cam burnout is real so I don't want to be overly critical here, but I stopped watching when he didn't even attempt to use counter to fight Bruno. I have better things to do with my life than watch a TH-cam video the length of a feature-long movie of a man spamming struggle in a children's game.
@@ganonisthebest i don't really understand, what you mean by TH-cam burnout, since he streamed it. Plus i had a feeling the whole video, that he didn't wanted to do this into a video at all.
you should do more challenges on the other games like this aside from just gen 1. its pretty interesting seeing you experiment with different mechanics sometimes. love your vids jrose
@@rajkanishu he explained why he doesnt like doing g/s/c runs. theres more that exists other than gen 2. im just trying to show him that people like runs on other games too. hes eventually going to run out of gen 1 mons to do lmao
@@archivelibrarian6818 He’s done challenges in G/S, Ruby, Emerald, Platinum, and BDSP. I think in the Platinum and BDSP runs, he explains why he doesn’t do much runs in other gens
@@thiefrules he explained why he doesnt do gsc runs in this video. i havent heard him explain the other gens and ive watched most of his videos. whats his reasoning for those?
@@archivelibrarian6818 I don't remember all too clearly but I think it's due to railroading and so many extra rival fights that don't change too much every time/mandatory story battles that slows everything down. At least something of the sort
a year late but here's the counter shenanigans against Steelix for those curious Gen 1 and 2 Counter uses the LAST move used during battle, since Counter has negative priority, it usually always goes last, but in some cases where the enemy pokemon doesn't use a move (healing or switching out), it uses the last move used in the battle, which in this case was Counter Counter does 2x damage of the last move used, so Countering Counter doubled the double damage Another fun shenanigan you can do with this is Countering your own Explosion if the opponent switches out or uses an item afterwards
This is not true, as the second fight counter would have 1-shot the Steelix but it did not. The other explanation - that counter is re-rolling the iron tail damage - is far more likely. The only question is whether it re-rolled it due to being the last move used or if it re-rolled it because Jasmine would have used it had she not potioned.
Just a comment in case anyone is unaware. The physical/special split occured in Gen 4 and it separated moves into physical/special based on the move itself. Until that point it was based on the type of the move. So the only Special Move types in Gen 1-3 are the eeveelutions and dragon type (water, fire, electric, grass, ice, psychic, dark). The rest of the types only had physical attacks. Hope this helps anyone who might have been confused.
I knew this already, but I always struggled with remembering which types were special or physical. I never made the connection to the Eeveelutions! Thank you, I won't forget it now!
I’m one of those obsessive-compulsive save-a-holics, so it’s hard for me to comprehend why anyone *wouldn’t* save in front of an important battle. Seriously, I’ve got it so bad that I actually save about 2-5 times in a row *each time* juuuuuuusssst to make sure that I actually saved and didn’t forget to; even on casual runs. I need therapy.
I usually save, check my bag and party, notice something off, fix it, then IMMEDIATELY save again Same with games like resident evil I'll save the moment I get to a save room out of relief, rearrange my inventory and ammo, then save again
I'm only halfway through the video so he might address this, loving the run so far, but wouldn't it have been more optimal when using the struggle strategy to come in with one Safeguard remaining to use it to start the battle and then start hitting struggle? Just a thought. Maybe I'm missing something. So fun though!
It wouldn't really work on the elite 4. They would kill him before he depleted his power points. Because if he just used elixir or ether before each fight he would still be wasting time he needed to inflict damage
The reason rocket portions are so under-leveled is not only because you are allowed to do things in any order. I think the original games really counted on you having a team of multiple Pokémon. When you just use one, or two, the game gets extremely easy because you end up over-levelled. Levels are so overpowered because the damage calculation, stats and your hp all scale. The te rocket portions are designed to allow you to use Pokémon that may have lagged behind.
Ohhh, I've not got into this yet but I know it's gonna be rough. Wobuffet can be a deadly Pokémon in a 1-on-1 battle, but it is _not_ a Mon designed to face a full team! I reckon the further we get, and the larger the enemy team sizes get, the more of a struggle (possibly literally) this will become. Edit: That Whitney battle was a thing of beauty 😂 Edit 2: I should never have doubted you would manage it. These ridiculous challenges are my absolute favourite thing about this channel and just some of my favourite videos on this site 😄
I knew Counter could use itself as the "last" attack that it would calculate counter damage on if no move was used inbetween from FSG's gen 1 competitive video. Didn't know that bug survived into gen 2
Instead of going all the way to 0 PP against will, i think that with a couple safeguad and 5/6 mirror coats you might've won the fight at a fairly lower level than 73. Still, a great video, and i challenge that I most definitely wouldn't have the patience to overcome. Great work, as always!
Awesome I listen to your videos every time I have a newborn they are keeping me up all night. These videos are the perfect blend of relaxing and interesting and right now I got a one week old who ain't sleeping. Perfect timing.
Fantastic video Jrose!, you can tell this one took determination Trivia: In GSC, morning sun; synthesis; and moonlight restore their optimal HP at morning; day; and night, respectively The fact that synthesis was used in a cave would not have affected the amount of HP recovered (time of day and weather would)
It's so weird when you realize how lopsided the back half of Gold and Silver is, level wise. When I FIRST played these, I remember being dramatically UNDER leveled in Kanto. Now though, that just... Never happens haha.
For me its the other way around. I remember my first save had a really high typhlosion. Now? Well, on my last run i defeated Red at like level 40, and with almost no items
If you focus on one or two pokemon it's easy. If you're swapping pokemon out a lot trying to figure out what you like or raising a full team it's actually pretty difficult. So first timers and rose smellers tend to have a time.
When you are veteran player you know how to be cheap as hell with your moves, so level is more like cherry on top, when we started, we also had huge problem of not knowing all types, since this gen change so much stuff, it was real pain to switch your brain from gen 1,you would simply forgot small stuff like poison doing hell of a more dmg lot faster!
That's how any pokémon game pre-gen 6 was. Using 1-2 pokémon was optimal. It's not just they get higher-levelled than with 6 pokémon, they also get more stat exp/EVs, and especially pre-gen 5, you could throw all the good TMs onto 1-2 pokés instead of struggling to divide them between 6 pokémon. Unless you do a lot of mindless grinding to get the levels up, it's actually "Hard mode" to have a team of 6 in pokémon gen 1-5, despite what any NPC constantly tries to tell you.@@AdaptiveReasoning
@ Why not just look it up? Counter damage can not be altered. It is always 2X the damage you take, so no attack scaling takes place. If it did, this run would be impossible because Wobbuffet's attack is so low. Funnily enough, increasing your defense will reduce the damage your Counter does indirectly, simply by reducing the damage you take. That's why Jrose remarks that he would have done more damage to the Steelix if he was lower level.
The fact that he is really dedicated to do the first generation run with every pokemon is amazing. Since i am an completionist myself, if i did this challenge, i would do every pokemon myself also
@@SaintoftheHonest you called it masochist, other people call it crazy and other people would call it a wasting of time. Or all of that at the same time. Personally whenever somebody says that, i just laugh and don't care. Just like getting all the achievement in every game i have, i don't care what the other people say. It is something i enjoy for myself and not for somebody else lol.
My childhood cat has taken a turn for the worse, and your videos are bringing me comfort while I lie on the floor and sleep on the couch to be w her. The trauma might make me never be able to listen to your videos again after this, but know you’re helping me when I need it most
That shiny Onix made me wonder: Statistically, how many shinies (rather, how many pokemon with the correct DVs to be shiny) have you "seen" in gen 1 after so many runs through those games?
From what I remember, the DVs of wild Pokemon in many areas are set, meaning Pokemon in those areas can never be shiny. This means it's very possible that number is 0, despite the many runs he's done
@@Pyxis10Yeah, but Gen 1 Pokemon COULD still be shiny when transferred. That means Gen 1 Pokemon could be shiny given the right circumstances, but you'd never know as the game isn't programmed with shinies in mind. That's what the commenter is wondering about
Gen 1's non-battle RNG is screwed up, so it's impossible to find a random encounter shiny in Gen 1 (it has to be a static encounter like a legendary). (Heavily simplified) If you ask the game for several random numbers at once, the game is absolutely guaranteed to generate a lot of "similar" numbers close together, so by the time it gets past "you've hit the 10% chance this grass patch will generate a random wild encounter", the remaining random numbers similar to that "10%" can no longer land on the combinations needed to be shiny.
The retroactive potions seems to be done in the same turn that it drops to red bar health. Seems to me you have found a glitch since attacks like counter are a negative priority move. Would be something worth checking out in later generations to see where they fixed this.
In Gen 2, using a Potion is the same as skipping a turn, so when Counter looks for the last used move, it's still the Iron Tail and because Wobby received the Defense Down, the game 'simulates' the damage that would have been dealt by that Iron Tail and calculates Counter based on that.
I would've preferred if you'd at least tried counter / mirror coat vs Lance instead of just dismissing it outright, it's all well and good to say it would've been worse, but it's a moot point if you didn't try it. Recharge turns for hyper beam would've also been good gaps to use safe guard.
Yeah he got stubborn there for no reason. I would have try the counter/mirror coat strat a few times first just for the sake of the theme THEN focus in the struggle.
Thank you!! I was so frustrated watching it 😅 safeguard could’ve protected against thunder wave and it would be much more interesting to watch the counter/mirror coat strats
Hi there JRose. Great choice for this video. MDB did this run before and actually couldn't beat it (don't remember which gen he tried in), so this was a really good watch. Can't wait for the next one.
Just when you think JRose couldn’t find another difficult challenge he finds this one! Great work as always, really glad your back to uploading videos. I alway look forward to watching them.
I choose to think for the potion glitch that Wobbuffet grabs the potion bottle during counter and smashes it over the opposing Pokémon’s head. Don’t mess with Wobbuffet!
So Gen 2 has a potion-counter glitch. Huh, interesting. But anyway, this one was insane, I thought it would be impossible, that Elite Four REALLY made this INSANLY HARD. Huge kudos to you dude.
Steelix fight. Known about glitch Mirror Coat and Counter deal damage based on the damaged from the last attack. Got changed in later gens, which is why it's only ever used on something like Gengar
I figured that Counter and Mirror Coat would come in clutch for Red. Interesting challenge run. Also, I didn't know about that glitch with the opponent using a healing item, and the game rerolling the previous move from your opponent, when using Counter or Mirror Coat.
this is _exactly_ what I was hoping to find after spending around 9 hours working with photoshop. Nothing better than this for a wind-down sorta brain relax, for real
It's amazing you've done this series for a while now and haven't lost your sanity yet. But as you mentioned couple times in this video, you are quite stubborn. But I think it's more than being stubborn. I'd say it is absolute dedication (and a pinch of madness). It is also this video that I learned something new with that Jasmine fight which also confused me and had to re-watch that part like 10 times to understand what was going on.
Wow, I was really excited to watch this run, but when more than half of the battles are just "dumbed down" to just level up and Struggle then it loses all the purpose of using Wobbuffet in the first place... You justify the use of Struggle for the sake of "consistency", but given the circumstances this run isn't about speed, but about the mere possibility to be able to complete it. Thanks anyway for all your hard work, I'll happily wait for your next videos! Best regards.
I feel you should try your Abra challenge in Sword and Shield, either the regular one or the no Special moves one. The TMs, TRs, move tutors and Dynamax give you a bunch of options.
It could run into the same groove as the Bidoof challenge in BDSP, where the power of friendship introduces some RNG that makes consistent strategy hard to assess.
@@Magetastic69 Yea. As Gen1 has far more limited move options (and most are BAD be fr) and a bigger limit on pokemon along with ofc the limit on types (not as many type match ups to worry about). It's easy to beat gen1 with just about anything, some may take more time than others but completely doable..newer games however it's much harder as there are stronger movepools and stronger moves and stronger pokemon, which is rough for weak pokemon.
Despite the very limited move-set, you nonetheless were able to employ quite a lot of creativity for this run. A real pleasure to watch how you figured out to make it happen.
I sympathoze with the headache this run must have caused, but man was this fun as heck to watch. Even if struggle took more of a center stage than was originally desired, I don't want to imagine the pain of doing it the "legit" way under these rules
I really didn't think you'd best red after the struggle with Lance. Then I saw the thing with Snorlax and was thinking that there was no way he'd finish the rest of red's pokemon. Never should have doubted the legend
That belly drum moment was awesome, These are the kind of runs I subscribed for years ago. Honestly the recent runs had little challenge and were getting pretty repetitive. This is the good stuff.
Honestly, same. I used to think "I'd never watch a TH-cam video over an hour" but after laying in bed watching numerous 30-40 minute videos in a row, that mindset quickly ended haha.
Would it have been a good idea to just restore 5pp Counter for Bruno, then you would still get to struggle on Karen. It's disappointing you didn't try (or at least show) counter strategies against Lance once. I see your argument, but for all we know it's still more worthwhile even when guessing wrong a bunch, the experimentation would have not taken that much more time then grinding to 100.
It 100% could have been done lower / more efficiently. Quick claw over Leftovers is super questionable imo. When you can guarantee you don't get afflicted with a status via safeguard and you're all but invincible with lefties, Counter/Mirror coat even vs mixed attackers becomes incredibly consistent. The only challenge would be PP management for Karen, but I have to imagine that would have been infinitely less difficult.
That Steelix thing sure was weird. If the way the Gen 2 AI uses items is the same way the Gen 1 AI does (i.e. it decides whether to use an item after determining what move it wants to use), then my guess is that when Jasmine uses the Hyper Potion, the game still runs a damage calculation for Iron Tail and Counter reacts to that.
Watching this, I'm telling myself that maybe I oversighted Wobbuffet. It actually can get pretty strong just using counter attacks. It's really interesting.
It's a bummer you don't find GSC as idea for challenge runs, since indeed I like GSC more than RBY. Still, for this challenge, it was AMAZING to see Wobuffet indeed conquer its homeland AND neighboring region even if it was just BARELY possible, but still doable. VERY good to see! X3 I hope even if it's not a full series, we DO find a challenge suitable for Gen II, since I find Gen II WAY more interesting than Gen I.
It was honestly super satisfying to see the final battle featuring Wobbuffet being used as intended. Struggle served you well, but Wobbuffet wrapping this up with what it does best, as a Wobbuffet fan myself, that's what I like to see.
Wobbffet is underrated. Playing a fangame right now, and it's carrying me through every gym trainer since I started using it. Though it has encore instead of safeguard.
looks cool! I have an idea if you accept those: one of my favorite mons is Meganium, although sadly in Johto being a Grass type is very tough as you know I've tried to solo the entire game with only Chiko, and actually got all the way to Koga, where I fell. I'm wondering if it's possible at all to see Chikorita's revenge.
Having made a grass monotype, it is definitely possible. The chikorita line get Sword Dance trough egg moves, so if anything else fail, have chikorita 1 breed SD into chijorita 2 and use that one for the rest of the run.
@@noukan42 true, but I used my starter Chiko and not specifically bred one with egg moves I was VERY lucky to get a female Chikorita which easily handled Miltank though, and while not swords-dance levels of boosting, Curse did the job decently for me
When he goes back into victory road to level up after that encounter he runs into several pokemon and only one of which shows that he's caught it: an onyx. Do i think so
1:11:42 yes most pokemon games 'predict', where as their moves arent chosen until after yours, in some cases choosing a move or option based off of what you just chose that turn. Really kills trying battle towers and playing the ai for me and screws up decision making when playing against real people in competitive pkmn
Thanks for the struggle of taking on this run. Thats why we love your content Jrose. You are never afraid to face the most difficult challenges that we can imagine :)
When calculating Counter Damage, the game doesn't know how to calculate the damage based on the Potion heal, so instead it rerolls the attack used in the previous turn (in this case iron tail) and calculates the damage based on that roll, that's why the damage is inconsistent, because it's based on a second reroll.
I thought this is what happens but im not an expert. Ill take your explanation
Yeah, i also figured it had to do with the Random aspect of damage calculations. Unless it is a fixed dmg move there seems to always be a 15% range applied to attacks. So it can do either do the absolute maximum or 85% at the lowest. The reroll might have just been a 100% and that caused increased damage thst was then countered. At least thats how i understood it.
@@eyalinbar4845 If you want a bit more technical detail, When counter is used it looks for the opponents last used attack, meaning that, as far as counter is concerned, using a potion is the same as skipping a turn from switching out or some 2 turn moves, so the game searches the previous turn for the actual last attack used, but because Counter's damage calculations have to happen on the same turn the game gets confused and basically "pretends" to attack with the same move again, which rerolls the damage.
If you consider how a game is coded (= step by step in a certain order), I guess it is way more likely that it occurs because of the coding rules order. I pointed it out in another comment on here. I guess the coding rules order are like that:
1. Move selection and damage calculation of all regular moves
2. Damage calculation of Counter & Mirror Coat
3. Move selection and damage calculation of Metronome
4. Item selection
This explains why Counter doesn't work on Metronome and why it deals damage depending on the status afflictions (in this case the second Counter deals less damage because in the first case his defense was lowered before).
@@philipsworld678 to answer your last point, Counter's damage is calculated based on how much HP you lost, so yeah, it does take into consideration stat changes. It's also why it is technically possible for counter to take recoil damage into consideration, or counter the enemy's counter. (This is also why Wobuffet, having high HP but low defences, is an excellent user of those moves)
Metronome works really weird in gens 1 and 2, and there's a million reasons why Counter wouldn't work on it and none of them would surprise me.
Can I just say how good the GSC sprites look. Especially Wobbuffet, never noticed how good the shading looks.
Some of them are downright hilarious, though. Smoochum, for example, is absolutely furious.
The gen 6+ sprites stripped so much of the love and care of the art. Quirky some may be, RBY and GSC have personality
@@magicball3201 it’s cause now they’re models not sprites. They don’t texture them like shadows anymore because that’s what lighting is for… it’s not normal practice for models…and models tend to represent things as they actually are more than sprites. Sprites don’t have to have as consistent of a form which leads to exaggerated poses. Models generally don’t have that same flexibility if things deform too much. You’d likely have to make several models depending on what software you’re using (how parametric it is)
@@hi-ougidemonfang HyperDelta was more talking about colors being good, I about poses. Look at Feraligatr's gen two sprite, it has a personality. In gen 6+, it just awkwardly stands there. Some pokemon have good models. Most have uninteresting designs for the mainline games. I care because I remember seeing Machamp's DP sprite and think that looked cool, so I used a Machop (not understanding trade evolutions because I was 6). Nowadays, Machamp looks awful as a model, at least compared to the sprites.
Game Freak knows how to get good models. Battle Revolution they passed modeling duty off to another company, and while those models are far from perfect, they're pretty good, especially for both it's time and it was on the Wii.
Same, was my fave gen. Then Ruby and Sapphire came out with a polished look and feel that kind of made Legendaries look like mecha gundam warriors. Even worse in DP. I like the animal-ly look more. GSC ftw.
'I can't believe i'm actually trying this' from the man, that beat Platinum with Shedinja, BDSP with Bidoof, FRLG with Pichu and nearly every game with Magicarp. We're in for a treat.
At least he had some move varieties with those runs, with this one he's stuck with the same four moves the whole run haha
Don't forget Emerald with Ditto, still my favourite as I literally just assumed it impossible, and the nuts ways he gamed the bugged mechanics to win.
@@jakerockznoodles you know you've made it as an Impossible Challenge Expert when you stumble upon an undiscovered bug in your adventures 😂
For some reason, TH-cam had me rate this comment. I thought that liking and unliking took care of that but, I guess.
At least these Pokémon can do damage for themselves. Just started watching, but:
-Physical/Special split can be a pain in the older games
-Status moves are out of the question
-Destiny Bond, in a solo run, is useless
But oh well, jrose is a god so we need to take that into account
Ah yes, Wobbu Fett, father to Jango Fett, father to Boba Fett.
"Even after we did twice as much damage we can't beat Bruno!" meanwhile Wobbuffet's whole sprite is looking downward as if it's maybe ashamed
to be real, against just Bruno, he should've used an Ether and done Counter
Aw poor guy
@@InfernosReaper he cant use items in battle
@@Nyilith but he can outside of battle.
We weren't worried Erica would end the run, we were all just happy you remembered her
"No way in Home For Infinite Losers that I'm going to reset"
You, sir, have great taste.
A Team Four Star fan I see…
@@jesseholland261 OUR BATTLE SHALL BE LEGENDARY
If you get it you get it
HFIL is wonderful!
😄👍
@@jesseholland261 likely so, but TFS was referencing something in actual DBZ. Localization of the show didn’t want to mention hell or any religious stuff, so they changed the word HELL on Goz and Mez’s clothes to HFIL and called it Home For Infinite Losers as a result. So technically, anyone who has seen that localization of DBZ could have made the same statement while having never seen TFS.
Wobbuffet's Silver version front sprite is so fitting for this challenge. It looks so exhausted.
"Switching and using a multi-turn move will not reset the last amount of damage done, allowing Counter to counter itself as well as self-inflicted recoil damage. If a HP-restoring or battle item is used on the opponent during the same round that Counter is used, Counter will counter the item. "
This is only in the generation 1 documentation and not gen 2, but i feel it explains the glitch.
Gen 2 did use a lot of the same code when it came to the battle system outside of the well known glitches at the time.
but countering the item should result in a one shot no? counter doubles damage
@@archivelibrarian6818 Most definitely. What I think happened is that Counter took the damage from the last Iron Tail and used it in the calculation for the glitch damage but ALSO used the defense drop on Wobbuffet in the calculation. This would explain why the glitch damage oneshot the first time but not the second time (since the calculation would deal more damage with a defense drop). The defense drop is the only difference between the two attempts, which is why I think it matters.
@@justsomejojo Also the reason the 2nd time the 2nd Counter dealt more damage is because Counter calculates the damage from Iron Tail again & gets a higher roll on the range. That's my theory of it at least
If an enemy trainer uses a battle item, he/she has still to choose one of the four moves first (code rules of the game).
Because of this glitch, this move gets obviously countered I guess.
Jasmine selected Iron Tail in both cases, but got the defense drop in the first case, so the first countered Iron Tail (aka hyper potion) deals a lot more damage.
This was a great challenge. The massive health pool from the gimmick pokemon actually did it justice. Leftovers is very overpowered when you have such high hp. For a second there I thought you were gonna hit 600 hp. Haha
@ you're actually incorrect. It heals 1/16th of your hp every turn. Since wobbuffet had almost 600 hp it was healing about 37 hp per turn. And since struggle was typeless in gen 2, 1/4 of the damage was recoiled back to the user. Doesn't help all that much. But since struggle was dealing a decent amount of damage, every 4 damage wobbufet was dealing he would take back 1 damage. In total it could deal about anout 148 damage to negate the effect of leftovers not accounting for damage made by the opponent. 37 hp is a lot with leftovers.
Too bad you don't get it until so late in the game
- "It's gonna be hard with only counter/mirror coat"
- Proceeds to pass 80% of the game with struggle
Yeah, Struggle is a surprisingly viable strat with gimmick Pokémon.
@@timothymclean I think you mean early gens. Gen 4? Definitely by 5, struggle did 1/4 of your total health in recoil damage no matter the damage you do. Kills don't prevent it (to my knowledge) so gimmick pokemon are kinda fucked, since they're a Gimmick and not just a shitty stats pokemon. So reusable tm's won't help
@@SoggyCoffeeAddict I stand by what I said. If a gimmick is bad enough, Struggle is often the only way to move forward.
well, he didn’t say it would be hard with struggle, no?
@@timothymclean if you're gonna try a gimmick run, what's the point in beating it using non-gimmick strats?
Wobbuffet's sprite at 48:18 really encompasses this run
Depressed
Such a mood
5:09 First time it's shown, he knew what he was getting into this early.
If you're worried about losing money, why not have your mom save some of it?
I don't quite know how to explain it but with most youtube channels that do some sort of reoccuring video series, i find myself getting incredibly bored very quickly. Jrose on the other hand entertains me every video non stop. Couldn't tell you why but thank you Jrose very much for making these! Your videos are entertaining and have gotten me through some lonely nights when there was no one else there
Similar comments to yours keep popping up under Jrose videos, and I absolutely agree! I watched him beat Red/Blue over 70 times at this point and never once did it get boring. I really don't know what it is exactly and how he pulls it off.
Karen: "I see your Wobbuffet is using Struggle! Let's make sure it can't anymore! Gengar! Use Spite!"
COUNTER: "How did you become the leader of the Elite Four again?"
...Let me speak to your manager, young man.
Well, the current champion and previous leader of the elite four is well-known for spamming Agility against random poison pokemon for no reason, so it's a step up from that...
@@IamGrimalkin Thankfully, when he became Champion he finally got smart enough to stop doing that.
Disappointing that most of the run became "level up enough to spam Struggle to win", still an interesting watch though and at least Red required more strategy.
Unfortunately not much you can do in this case. The moveset is 100% a gamble in single player and there's no variation.
He could have try it a bit in the league and then give up and go with struggle. I mean I suspect that even one counter in a hyper beam with lance may have 1HKO a few pokemon. We may never know.
@@graydanger No, he would have run out of HP. He would have had to guess perfectly over and over. Hyper Beam is only doing about 50 hp of damage to a level 96 Wobbuffet so it would survive a Counter. He also has to deal with Dragonite using Thunder Wave and Pokemon switching between special and physical attacks randomly.
It would just be a bunch of coin flips. He doesn't use Double Team because of this reason. It would be an extreme statistical outlier for him to actually guess right enough to win. But it would just be guessing. Luck. No strategy at all.
Brute forcing his way with Struggle through the E4 was definitely the lamest part of the run. I get why it had to be done, but Struggle spam is just not interesting to watch.
@@retloclive9118 It reminded me of Pikasprey's GSC Ditto run, just good examples of why the most limited pokemon often don't make for the most interesting challenges (at least with the Magikarp runs that allowed items, there was some more strategy involved with managing your item use).
POV: it's 2am and your in bed and Jrose11 drops a video. "Sleep is for the weak"
4am gonna be a long night
Another member of the insomnia squad!
@@thatfuzzypotato1877 Damn right lol
Ha! Shows what you know!
I’m at work stocking shelves.
Sleep is for the week.
For the first rival fight, you really should have left yourself with exactly 1 safeguard. Prevents Ghastly from sleeping or paraing you, likely also prevents the confusion from Zubat. Keeping a single safeguard is really good for struggle strats.
Strats like that are probably applicable to a number of Wobbuffets challenges. Basically manipulating your PP to be just where you want it to be - like no pp for the counter that isnt useful, 2 for Safeguard. Means you can set up enough safeguard to get you through and you have your good countering move for the battle and, once used up, you get right into struggle instead of having a bunch of useless pp.
And vs Whitney.. honestly, metronome rng WILL happen sooner or later. That's not much of a question. Aside from bellydrum luck, explosion and self-destruct are in the pool for metronome, as far as I am aware - and likely a few others I haven't thought about. Just keep safeguard up(so random status effects don't fuck you up) and you should be able to do it in a timely manner... well, "timely" for Wobbuffet.
Yeah he could have done that for multiple fights to prevent confuse/sleep RNG.
I love how we're always so pleasantly surprised when Jrose uploads haha
Same! I seen the thumbnail and was like ‘you son of a bitch I’m in’.
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Idk why but the “I dont even want to see Wobbufet knocked out” line was hilarious to me.
19:47 When a trainer uses a hyper potion the games gets confused to what damage should go to steelix so it rerolles the previous move here was iron tail and determines the damade from there
Love you vids
That's so freaking weird
I think the badge boost came in handy to due to the defense drop, the attack Stat went higher to. That glitch is in gen 2 to as far as I know.
There’s so many counter glitches. Poor developers.
Yep, was about to comment this. counter takes in consideration the last move the opponent's pokemon used, regardless if the trainer used a potion or no.
*any potion
Just started the video, my prediction is that he’s gonna have to Struggle a lot.
EDIT: 18:40 All I can picture in my head is Wobbuffet slapping the potion out of Jasmine’s hand and backhanding the Steelix in one motion.
So in this instance she's Soda Popinski?
Pokémon Punch-Out!!
Lol, countered the potion
If the last attack used in memory was a Normal or Fighting type move, was not Counter and dealt damage (even if it was from another battle) and the opponent uses a healing item, Counter will deal twice as much damage as the last attack and it looks like the user is countering a healing item.
has been more or less "known" for about 7 years at this point. On the Glitchcity wiki you can see it being mentioned the first time in 2017
I'm just imagining a trainer trekking through Johto just using Wobbuffet as a blunt stick and whacking everything in it's path.
I love Jrose’s share of wisdom for Bugsy
Jrose: “I just have to knock out his Kakuna before he knocks out me”
Me:…. Well yeah Jrose. That’s like the whole point of this game.
Just saw the title, and my heart filled with excitement, doubt, intrigue and adrenaline. I grabbed my Indiana Jones hat, my whip, orchestral horns started playing in my brain. I know JRose and I and up for an adventure that will change us forever. An unexpectedly long adventure across Johto full of struggles and unforeseen encounters. But, heck, this is what I came for. You're never too old for a fun, good aventure. Let's dive in, my friend.
Thanks for all your hard work getting this one out! Even if at times it was a… struggle?
Bu dum crash!!🤣🤣🤣
@@ItsJynxMe *tsh
It's interesting to compare struggle's recoil with counter/mirror coat. They counter double the damage it takes, while struggle takes 1/4 recoil. Either way you need to trade HP for damage, which struggle gives at a better rate, 4 damage to the enemy for 1 damage to wobbuffet. But, that's not taking into account enemy attacks. Counters are only taking the damage you would be taking anyway, while struggle is additional damage.
But usually the damage Struggle deals is more than double the damage Wobbuffet receives. Usually, since Struggle takes the opponent's defense into account while Counter and Mirror Coat, as we saw in the glitch Jrose... encountered, only uses Wobbuffet's.
also 100% accuracy on struggle (in this generation) vs guessing and trying to predict when to counter or mirror coat
@@yousefffg Yeah, I have no idea why they haven't at least given Bide to Wobbuffet. Yes, it's two to three turns of charging instead of instant damage, but it works regardless of move type. Except ghost, but even then it works on ghosts anyway in gens 1 and 4.
@@mickkelley3776 They probably thought that guessing the move type would be an interesting challenge and not a fool's errand.
@Timothy McLean I think it's more likely they wanted to make it tense to fight AGAINST the move combo, rather than considering the challenge of using it yourself. The games weren't originally balanced around pvp, as that was only supposed to be a fun side element, and they actively wanted to avoid a real-world competitive scene, so most pokemon were balanced for in game use.
In one of these Gold and Silver runs, you should try to use the Berserk Gene. You can find it on where Cerulean Cave was supposed to be. It raises your attack by 2 stages, but it confuses your Pokémon for 255 turns. It's essentially a Swagger that activates when you enter a battle.
I thought that was dummied out. Or is it just the Mewtwo that was supposed to be holding it that was
@Velvet Butterfly
Nope, it’s a hidden item you can normally obtain. It would make sense for Mewtwo to hold it as it’s clearly connected to it like the Sacred Ash is to Ho-Oh, but it’s just invisible somewhere near Cerulean Cave instead. Wasn’t until Detective Pikachu (the game, not the movie) that this item was ever elaborated on.
@@rainpooper7088 Mewtwo actually does hold it if you glitch, hack, or cheat one into a wild encounter, but due to how the Berserk Gene works, it's just instantly consumed.
Was this a secret? I found it as a kid
It's a secret in the sense that nothing points towards its existence aside from the dowsing machine, and it's basically an easter egg for where the berserking mewtwo from gen 1 used to be.@@almightyk11
Just an idea for Rival 2 (I've not watched the whole video yet, just up to that part) did you consider using all PP except for a single safeguard? This would protect against the Ghastly sending you to sleep and the Zubat confusing you
This was literally my first thought too :D
Me too LOL
Since he did this one on stream, I’m not surprised that he missed this. Some things just don’t stand out as options at the time.
i thought the same for the kakuna before bugsy who kept poisoning him
Wasn't just me I guess
I wish you would have tried Will with Counter strategies more then once, as the first battle you just neglected safeguard too much. That being said, you could have entered with 1 pp on safeguard to go from safeguard into struggle and avoid the confusion hell
Yeah, and I feel the same for Bruno and the Champion. At Bruno, he struggles immensely and complains about having to gain 13 levels, yet he never tries Counter. At 46:38 he explains that he *needs* Struggle for Karen and he'd "have to manage our power points extremely carefully", yet it's very likely that if he used an Ether to restore 10 PP before Bruno, he would still use all or most of the moves by the end of the battle, and he has to attack 14 times in that winning battle anyways.
As for the Champion, he'd rather do multiple attempts at level 100 than even *try* Counter strats just once. He explains that it would become too luck-based, yet at 55:25 he says "there's honestly just so much luck involved, every time I'm paralyzed and can't attack, it's just one more opportunity for Lance to get an attack on me". If he's using Counter/Mirror Move, then he's also able to use Safeguard, eliminating the luck that he has to have in his current strategy.
@@Ultimaximus it is a common problem of many recent runs, he get stubborn about a certain strat and if it fail he grind instead of trying another one. And i find it particoularly aggravating when the ranking are invokved because certain mons were using a clearly suboptimal strat.
@@Ultimaximus it's also a generally dumb self imposed challenge that doesn't really matter and going back to consume PP, deciding when to save, when you should reset and when you should just let yourself get knocked out is just dumb, mixed attackers are way trickier and more annoying than just spamming A and hoping to not get too much bad luck with status so he clearly prefers the latter to waste less time, afterall the player's sanity is a factor to take into consideration in challenges like this
@@Ultimaximus Yeah. Tbh there isn't really a huge amount of point in using Wobbuffet if you're not going to actually use its core gimmick in any battle vs any Elite 4 member. At that point it's not "can you beat the game using Wobbuffet's specific strategy?" and instead just "can you beat the game using a mon with 33 base attack?". The first question is potentially interesting to watch. The second question is simply a case of "Yes, if you grind enough and do nothing but press 'A' in every battle you'll eventually win", but that is just fundamentally disinteresting.
I have historically really enjoy JRose's content, and I understand the TH-cam burnout is real so I don't want to be overly critical here, but I stopped watching when he didn't even attempt to use counter to fight Bruno. I have better things to do with my life than watch a TH-cam video the length of a feature-long movie of a man spamming struggle in a children's game.
@@ganonisthebest i don't really understand, what you mean by TH-cam burnout, since he streamed it. Plus i had a feeling the whole video, that he didn't wanted to do this into a video at all.
you should do more challenges on the other games like this aside from just gen 1. its pretty interesting seeing you experiment with different mechanics sometimes. love your vids jrose
he explained why he doesn't do them in this game right in this video
@@rajkanishu he explained why he doesnt like doing g/s/c runs. theres more that exists other than gen 2. im just trying to show him that people like runs on other games too. hes eventually going to run out of gen 1 mons to do lmao
@@archivelibrarian6818 He’s done challenges in G/S, Ruby, Emerald, Platinum, and BDSP. I think in the Platinum and BDSP runs, he explains why he doesn’t do much runs in other gens
@@thiefrules he explained why he doesnt do gsc runs in this video. i havent heard him explain the other gens and ive watched most of his videos. whats his reasoning for those?
@@archivelibrarian6818 I don't remember all too clearly but I think it's due to railroading and so many extra rival fights that don't change too much every time/mandatory story battles that slows everything down. At least something of the sort
a year late but here's the counter shenanigans against Steelix for those curious
Gen 1 and 2 Counter uses the LAST move used during battle, since Counter has negative priority, it usually always goes last, but in some cases where the enemy pokemon doesn't use a move (healing or switching out), it uses the last move used in the battle, which in this case was Counter
Counter does 2x damage of the last move used, so Countering Counter doubled the double damage
Another fun shenanigan you can do with this is Countering your own Explosion if the opponent switches out or uses an item afterwards
This is not true, as the second fight counter would have 1-shot the Steelix but it did not.
The other explanation - that counter is re-rolling the iron tail damage - is far more likely. The only question is whether it re-rolled it due to being the last move used or if it re-rolled it because Jasmine would have used it had she not potioned.
Just a comment in case anyone is unaware. The physical/special split occured in Gen 4 and it separated moves into physical/special based on the move itself. Until that point it was based on the type of the move. So the only Special Move types in Gen 1-3 are the eeveelutions and dragon type (water, fire, electric, grass, ice, psychic, dark). The rest of the types only had physical attacks. Hope this helps anyone who might have been confused.
The days of Shadow Ball Curselax before said split.
I knew this already, but I always struggled with remembering which types were special or physical. I never made the connection to the Eeveelutions! Thank you, I won't forget it now!
I’m one of those obsessive-compulsive save-a-holics, so it’s hard for me to comprehend why anyone *wouldn’t* save in front of an important battle.
Seriously, I’ve got it so bad that I actually save about 2-5 times in a row *each time* juuuuuuusssst to make sure that I actually saved and didn’t forget to; even on casual runs.
I need therapy.
You're not alone my friend. I feel as though you're describing my own saving habits.
I usually save, check my bag and party, notice something off, fix it, then IMMEDIATELY save again
Same with games like resident evil
I'll save the moment I get to a save room out of relief, rearrange my inventory and ammo, then save again
I don’t even save scum unless I fully lose the battle, but I always save before every boss
I'm only halfway through the video so he might address this, loving the run so far, but wouldn't it have been more optimal when using the struggle strategy to come in with one Safeguard remaining to use it to start the battle and then start hitting struggle? Just a thought. Maybe I'm missing something. So fun though!
Probably right, but it would be too tedious to get Safeguard down to 1 pp for each battle I imagine.
It wouldn't really work on the elite 4. They would kill him before he depleted his power points. Because if he just used elixir or ether before each fight he would still be wasting time he needed to inflict damage
Speedis necessary
The reason rocket portions are so under-leveled is not only because you are allowed to do things in any order. I think the original games really counted on you having a team of multiple Pokémon. When you just use one, or two, the game gets extremely easy because you end up over-levelled. Levels are so overpowered because the damage calculation, stats and your hp all scale. The te rocket portions are designed to allow you to use Pokémon that may have lagged behind.
Ohhh, I've not got into this yet but I know it's gonna be rough. Wobuffet can be a deadly Pokémon in a 1-on-1 battle, but it is _not_ a Mon designed to face a full team! I reckon the further we get, and the larger the enemy team sizes get, the more of a struggle (possibly literally) this will become.
Edit: That Whitney battle was a thing of beauty 😂
Edit 2: I should never have doubted you would manage it. These ridiculous challenges are my absolute favourite thing about this channel and just some of my favourite videos on this site 😄
The sheer jrose luck to get what he did with that Clefairy, I am in awe.
"No way in the Home for Infinite Losers i reset here."
Ah, jrose i see you also are a man of culture!
I knew Counter could use itself as the "last" attack that it would calculate counter damage on if no move was used inbetween from FSG's gen 1 competitive video. Didn't know that bug survived into gen 2
Instead of going all the way to 0 PP against will, i think that with a couple safeguad and 5/6 mirror coats you might've won the fight at a fairly lower level than 73.
Still, a great video, and i challenge that I most definitely wouldn't have the patience to overcome. Great work, as always!
Awesome I listen to your videos every time I have a newborn they are keeping me up all night. These videos are the perfect blend of relaxing and interesting and right now I got a one week old who ain't sleeping. Perfect timing.
How often do you have a newborn?
@@AKHalex on number 3 now.
@@AKHalex every 17 months +/-
Fantastic video Jrose!, you can tell this one took determination
Trivia: In GSC, morning sun; synthesis; and moonlight restore their optimal HP at morning; day; and night, respectively
The fact that synthesis was used in a cave would not have affected the amount of HP recovered (time of day and weather would)
It's so weird when you realize how lopsided the back half of Gold and Silver is, level wise. When I FIRST played these, I remember being dramatically UNDER leveled in Kanto. Now though, that just... Never happens haha.
For me its the other way around. I remember my first save had a really high typhlosion. Now? Well, on my last run i defeated Red at like level 40, and with almost no items
If you focus on one or two pokemon it's easy. If you're swapping pokemon out a lot trying to figure out what you like or raising a full team it's actually pretty difficult. So first timers and rose smellers tend to have a time.
When you are veteran player you know how to be cheap as hell with your moves, so level is more like cherry on top, when we started, we also had huge problem of not knowing all types, since this gen change so much stuff, it was real pain to switch your brain from gen 1,you would simply forgot small stuff like poison doing hell of a more dmg lot faster!
@@luco4222 sure you did bro
That's how any pokémon game pre-gen 6 was. Using 1-2 pokémon was optimal. It's not just they get higher-levelled than with 6 pokémon, they also get more stat exp/EVs, and especially pre-gen 5, you could throw all the good TMs onto 1-2 pokés instead of struggling to divide them between 6 pokémon. Unless you do a lot of mindless grinding to get the levels up, it's actually "Hard mode" to have a team of 6 in pokémon gen 1-5, despite what any NPC constantly tries to tell you.@@AdaptiveReasoning
One thing I like about the post gen 1 runs is seeing what held items you use to get small advantages against hard battles
I tried wobuffett in Leafgreen, and it is a lot harder since the AI knows you have counter and is less likely to attack you
Same in HG/SS
Important Battles:
Falkner: 1:12-1:55 (44 seconds)
Silver 2: 4:15-5:58, 8:17-8:47 (2 minutes, 15 seconds)
Bugsy: 5:59-7:59 (2 minutes, 1 second)
Whitney: 9:09-11:42 (2 minutes, 34 seconds)
Morty: 13:11-14:58 (1 minute, 48 seconds)
Chuck: 15:38-17:59 (2 minutes, 22 seconds)
Jasmine: 18:13-20:07 (1 minute, 55 seconds)
Pryce: 21:35-25:03 (3 minutes, 29 seconds)
Clair: 25:50-28:23 (2 minutes, 34 seconds)
Silver 5: 29:07-31:49 (2 minutes, 43 seconds)
Will: 32:10-37:38 (5 minutes, 29 seconds)
Koga: 38:13-43:16 (5 minutes, 4 seconds)
Bruno: 43:30-46:25 (2 minutes, 56 seconds)
Karen: 46:58-48:01 (1 minute, 4 seconds)
Lance: 48:40-59:15 (10 minutes, 36 seconds)
Blue: 1:04:05-1:05:54 (1 minute, 50 seconds)
Red: 1:06:04-1:13:05 (7 minutes, 2 seconds)
watching this video makes me realize just how awful the move charm is for the wobbuffet line
And how necessary Encore is.
Only if you're using Struggle. Attack drops don't effect Counter.
@ Why not just look it up? Counter damage can not be altered. It is always 2X the damage you take, so no attack scaling takes place. If it did, this run would be impossible because Wobbuffet's attack is so low.
Funnily enough, increasing your defense will reduce the damage your Counter does indirectly, simply by reducing the damage you take. That's why Jrose remarks that he would have done more damage to the Steelix if he was lower level.
not as bad as you might think, charm can be used to prevent physical attackers from successfully setting up
I love how emotive your readings are, they really bring you into the challenge.
The fact that he is really dedicated to do the first generation run with every pokemon is amazing. Since i am an completionist myself, if i did this challenge, i would do every pokemon myself also
Would you use each individual stage of a pokemon? Or just go for first form and naturally evolve?
I believe the word you're looking for is "masochist"
@@MalpheusTheMalefic i would go each stage on its own challenge instead of using the last evolution for the entire line.
@@SaintoftheHonest you called it masochist, other people call it crazy and other people would call it a wasting of time. Or all of that at the same time. Personally whenever somebody says that, i just laugh and don't care. Just like getting all the achievement in every game i have, i don't care what the other people say. It is something i enjoy for myself and not for somebody else lol.
My childhood cat has taken a turn for the worse, and your videos are bringing me comfort while I lie on the floor and sleep on the couch to be w her. The trauma might make me never be able to listen to your videos again after this, but know you’re helping me when I need it most
18:39
Wobbuffet, so badass it can unheal the pokemon.
That shiny Onix made me wonder: Statistically, how many shinies (rather, how many pokemon with the correct DVs to be shiny) have you "seen" in gen 1 after so many runs through those games?
From what I remember, the DVs of wild Pokemon in many areas are set, meaning Pokemon in those areas can never be shiny. This means it's very possible that number is 0, despite the many runs he's done
@@Pyxis10Yeah, but Gen 1 Pokemon COULD still be shiny when transferred. That means Gen 1 Pokemon could be shiny given the right circumstances, but you'd never know as the game isn't programmed with shinies in mind. That's what the commenter is wondering about
Probably not too many. Most of the gen 1 runs are minimum battles with Repel spam.
@@StormySensei That was my thought shortly after posting this, haha
Not a ton of chances to roll those 8000-sided dice
Gen 1's non-battle RNG is screwed up, so it's impossible to find a random encounter shiny in Gen 1 (it has to be a static encounter like a legendary). (Heavily simplified) If you ask the game for several random numbers at once, the game is absolutely guaranteed to generate a lot of "similar" numbers close together, so by the time it gets past "you've hit the 10% chance this grass patch will generate a random wild encounter", the remaining random numbers similar to that "10%" can no longer land on the combinations needed to be shiny.
I remember my lvl 36 wobbufettt as a kid.
it mirror coated Red's Pikachu at lvl 36 and incinerated it.
It's disappointing to see so much Struggle in these types of runs, very nice finish with Red though!
The retroactive potions seems to be done in the same turn that it drops to red bar health. Seems to me you have found a glitch since attacks like counter are a negative priority move. Would be something worth checking out in later generations to see where they fixed this.
retroactive potions only exist in gen 1. Gen 2 is normal priority potions
In Gen 2, using a Potion is the same as skipping a turn, so when Counter looks for the last used move, it's still the Iron Tail and because Wobby received the Defense Down, the game 'simulates' the damage that would have been dealt by that Iron Tail and calculates Counter based on that.
Amazing work as usual man! It’s genuinely insane how much effort you’re willing to put in for these impossible challenges.
Can we take a moment to appreciate this man's dedication to pokemon and youtube
His will is unmatched he counters every struggle and always safeguards his mirror coats with entertaining strats. Love the videos Jrose
I would've preferred if you'd at least tried counter / mirror coat vs Lance instead of just dismissing it outright, it's all well and good to say it would've been worse, but it's a moot point if you didn't try it. Recharge turns for hyper beam would've also been good gaps to use safe guard.
Yeah he got stubborn there for no reason. I would have try the counter/mirror coat strat a few times first just for the sake of the theme THEN focus in the struggle.
Thank you!! I was so frustrated watching it 😅 safeguard could’ve protected against thunder wave and it would be much more interesting to watch the counter/mirror coat strats
Yeah, but the thing is that Jrose needed to use Ethers there before the champion, if he wanted to use Struggle during the Elite 4
@@heartofthefluft8541 so? He had the items so that's a non issue
@@rooislangwtf Yeah! Well we may never know, unless we try it for ourselves xD
Hi there JRose. Great choice for this video. MDB did this run before and actually couldn't beat it (don't remember which gen he tried in), so this was a really good watch. Can't wait for the next one.
12:45
Challenge failed
I saw that bird. Just because you got roar'd out doesn't mean you get to use growl.
I agree actually, I was so shocked to see that
It was just a random trainer battle tho who cares
he used the moves that had the least impact, probably bc if he reset there's no telling how far back it'd send him
Just when you think JRose couldn’t find another difficult challenge he finds this one! Great work as always, really glad your back to uploading videos. I alway look forward to watching them.
I choose to think for the potion glitch that Wobbuffet grabs the potion bottle during counter and smashes it over the opposing Pokémon’s head.
Don’t mess with Wobbuffet!
What an incredible run, no spoilers but you'll be impressed with how far he gets (to the end? Find out!)
So Gen 2 has a potion-counter glitch. Huh, interesting. But anyway, this one was insane, I thought it would be impossible, that Elite Four REALLY made this INSANLY HARD. Huge kudos to you dude.
Steelix fight.
Known about glitch
Mirror Coat and Counter deal damage based on the damaged from the last attack. Got changed in later gens, which is why it's only ever used on something like Gengar
I figured that Counter and Mirror Coat would come in clutch for Red. Interesting challenge run. Also, I didn't know about that glitch with the opponent using a healing item, and the game rerolling the previous move from your opponent, when using Counter or Mirror Coat.
Let us all remember this day, as the day the pokemon that forced Jrose11 to adapt a new strategy... was a Kakuna.
hands down one of the best videos you've ever made. i appreciate your sacrifice for our entertainment :)
this is _exactly_ what I was hoping to find after spending around 9 hours working with photoshop. Nothing better than this for a wind-down sorta brain relax, for real
It's amazing you've done this series for a while now and haven't lost your sanity yet. But as you mentioned couple times in this video, you are quite stubborn. But I think it's more than being stubborn. I'd say it is absolute dedication (and a pinch of madness). It is also this video that I learned something new with that Jasmine fight which also confused me and had to re-watch that part like 10 times to understand what was going on.
Love your vids man, always able to cheer my day. Love the consistent uploads nowadays!
Imagine the drop in difficulty u would have in the entire challenge if your wobby had leftovers from the start?
Wow, I was really excited to watch this run, but when more than half of the battles are just "dumbed down" to just level up and Struggle then it loses all the purpose of using Wobbuffet in the first place... You justify the use of Struggle for the sake of "consistency", but given the circumstances this run isn't about speed, but about the mere possibility to be able to complete it. Thanks anyway for all your hard work, I'll happily wait for your next videos! Best regards.
I love that I watch every single one of these videos all the way through without fail. In a world of short attention spans, it's kind of crazy.
I feel you should try your Abra challenge in Sword and Shield, either the regular one or the no Special moves one. The TMs, TRs, move tutors and Dynamax give you a bunch of options.
every single swsh challenge is doable and boring as hell
@@rajkanishu red and blue are significantly easier than sword and sheild for these single pokemon challenges
@@Rattus375 no lol.
It could run into the same groove as the Bidoof challenge in BDSP, where the power of friendship introduces some RNG that makes consistent strategy hard to assess.
@@Magetastic69 Yea. As Gen1 has far more limited move options (and most are BAD be fr) and a bigger limit on pokemon along with ofc the limit on types (not as many type match ups to worry about). It's easy to beat gen1 with just about anything, some may take more time than others but completely doable..newer games however it's much harder as there are stronger movepools and stronger moves and stronger pokemon, which is rough for weak pokemon.
Despite the very limited move-set, you nonetheless were able to employ quite a lot of creativity for this run. A real pleasure to watch how you figured out to make it happen.
I could watch these vids forever. Never get tired of your content
I sympathoze with the headache this run must have caused, but man was this fun as heck to watch. Even if struggle took more of a center stage than was originally desired, I don't want to imagine the pain of doing it the "legit" way under these rules
you’re such a trooper for this run. mad respect
I really didn't think you'd best red after the struggle with Lance. Then I saw the thing with Snorlax and was thinking that there was no way he'd finish the rest of red's pokemon. Never should have doubted the legend
That belly drum moment was awesome, These are the kind of runs I subscribed for years ago. Honestly the recent runs had little challenge and were getting pretty repetitive. This is the good stuff.
taking a deep breath, taking a chill less vocal and descriptive approach well maintaining your personality can go along way.
I love when the videos are over an hour lol
Honestly, same. I used to think "I'd never watch a TH-cam video over an hour" but after laying in bed watching numerous 30-40 minute videos in a row, that mindset quickly ended haha.
Wow didn't expect to see you on here, when's the next auction series episode? :)
Honestly the way you can craft and tell a story Jrose is the reason you've consistently been my favourite challenge channel.
Would it have been a good idea to just restore 5pp Counter for Bruno, then you would still get to struggle on Karen. It's disappointing you didn't try (or at least show) counter strategies against Lance once. I see your argument, but for all we know it's still more worthwhile even when guessing wrong a bunch, the experimentation would have not taken that much more time then grinding to 100.
It 100% could have been done lower / more efficiently. Quick claw over Leftovers is super questionable imo. When you can guarantee you don't get afflicted with a status via safeguard and you're all but invincible with lefties, Counter/Mirror coat even vs mixed attackers becomes incredibly consistent. The only challenge would be PP management for Karen, but I have to imagine that would have been infinitely less difficult.
@@connorprovines9417 He couldn't get leftovers until Kanto.
@@connorprovines9417 he didn’t use safeguard as much as he should have for some reason
Awesome run. So happy you been pushing out videos like this. Appreciate the hard work and dedication!
That Steelix thing sure was weird.
If the way the Gen 2 AI uses items is the same way the Gen 1 AI does (i.e. it decides whether to use an item after determining what move it wants to use), then my guess is that when Jasmine uses the Hyper Potion, the game still runs a damage calculation for Iron Tail and Counter reacts to that.
Dude, that was brutal to watch, but great job! I appreciate the work you put into these videos!
Watching this, I'm telling myself that maybe I oversighted Wobbuffet. It actually can get pretty strong just using counter attacks. It's really interesting.
That was crazy abnormal! Wobuffet is just too unbelievable! Congrats Jrose you did well amazing! Really impressive!
It's a bummer you don't find GSC as idea for challenge runs, since indeed I like GSC more than RBY. Still, for this challenge, it was AMAZING to see Wobuffet indeed conquer its homeland AND neighboring region even if it was just BARELY possible, but still doable. VERY good to see! X3 I hope even if it's not a full series, we DO find a challenge suitable for Gen II, since I find Gen II WAY more interesting than Gen I.
I'll admit it, Seth rogan in a red jumpsuit is not what i expected jrose to look like
Literally no one thinks I look like Seth Rogan.
It was honestly super satisfying to see the final battle featuring Wobbuffet being used as intended. Struggle served you well, but Wobbuffet wrapping this up with what it does best, as a Wobbuffet fan myself, that's what I like to see.
Wobbffet is underrated. Playing a fangame right now, and it's carrying me through every gym trainer since I started using it.
Though it has encore instead of safeguard.
looks cool!
I have an idea if you accept those:
one of my favorite mons is Meganium, although sadly in Johto being a Grass type is very tough as you know
I've tried to solo the entire game with only Chiko, and actually got all the way to Koga, where I fell. I'm wondering if it's possible at all to see Chikorita's revenge.
Having made a grass monotype, it is definitely possible. The chikorita line get Sword Dance trough egg moves, so if anything else fail, have chikorita 1 breed SD into chijorita 2 and use that one for the rest of the run.
Meganium is awesome
this mon learns earthquake and bodyslam.
it defienetly is possible
@@noukan42 true, but I used my starter Chiko and not specifically bred one with egg moves
I was VERY lucky to get a female Chikorita which easily handled Miltank though, and while not swords-dance levels of boosting, Curse did the job decently for me
@@mangosteak Chiko does not get Eq, but he does have Mud-Slap which is not the best but you gotta break though Morty somehow
I’m so glad your career playing Pokémon allowed you to truly provide for yourself. You truly, truly put in some hard work for us
Did you catch the shiny Onix?
When he goes back into victory road to level up after that encounter he runs into several pokemon and only one of which shows that he's caught it: an onyx. Do i think so
1:11:42 yes most pokemon games 'predict', where as their moves arent chosen until after yours, in some cases choosing a move or option based off of what you just chose that turn. Really kills trying battle towers and playing the ai for me and screws up decision making when playing against real people in competitive pkmn
Wobbuffet is definitely one of my favourites, it's a fun gimmick.
Thanks for the struggle of taking on this run. Thats why we love your content Jrose. You are never afraid to face the most difficult challenges that we can imagine :)