Stockfish Has Ruined Chess
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ธ.ค. 2022
- Puzzle FEN:
6bk/7p/2q1PP2/2Pp4/3R4/5K2/8/B7 w - - 0 1
Puzzle Details:
Evreinov, 1959, First Prize
Get my 5 most popular courses in one discounted bundle⏩chessvibescourses.thinkific.c...
☑️ Play Chess Here:
www.chess.com/membership?ref_...
Links are affiliate links and help support the Chess Vibes channel via a commission. - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
Stockfish finding an even more complex solution to an already beautiful problem is hardly "ruining the game"
it's not a solution though, since it ends in a draw. But yes I agree, it's not ruining.
@@BigDBrian black was losing, but ended up getting a draw, so it's a solution, just not for white
@@whackygamer19 Yes
But, when you look at it logically, attacking bishop straight away is not at all that complex move, no?
People keep saying there's a black pawn on a4.
Back over 60 years ago, even if a solution took 2 years to process, a faster computer released 1 year later could actually find the solution first. The transition to transistors changed everything.
@@hrsmp and knew that the transition will happen
@@aggressivepvp
At least 55 years ago, when I was in college, everybody who was at all knowledgeable about computers knew that the technology was progressing so fast that next year's computer would render this year's obsolete. A teacher told us, tongue-in-cheek, that if you ordered a computer today (back then) and another in a month, the second computer would be cheaper, more powerful, and would arrive sooner. A bit of hyperbole, but illustrating the fast pace of development. This, of course, was long before microchips. Yeah, we knew it was going by leaps and bounds.
@@danielschechter8130 Thank you for sharing your experience with us :) I was born in 94
It's very important to bear in mind that having faster hardware is only a piece of the solution. The equally big piece is figuring out how to write the software that allows a computer to play chess efficiently. I am a retired programmer who majored in Computer Science in the 1970's and I can tell you that the algorithms needed to do this hadn't been figured out yet.
For example, when I was in school, we students were asked things like, how would you represent a chess position in a computer? How would you evaluate that position? Find threats? Discover attacks? Look several moves ahead? Figuring out newer and better ways to do this and more, repeatedly, has been a large part of the work!
I also want to mention, for anyone reading this who isn't into computers, that hardware and software advances occur together. While transistors were a physics discovery, modern computer hardware is only possible with advanced software. As hardware advances occur it gives us programmers more time and space (i.e. processing power and computer memory), and then we come up with solutions that wouldn't have been feasible previously. So we then write more sophisticated software, which is then used to create even better hardware, and so on, and we also are able to make better chess algorithms. Bottom line: both are needed.
I thought Moore's Law said computing speed doubled every 18 months...
Yep, searched his name and found the puzzle. There is indeed a black pawn on a4.
Yes it is
Yep, Nelson messed up
@@ElSantoDeMostoles "TH-camrs are ruining chess" 😅
The thing is that even in the original puzzle Stockfish finds a way to defend itself for 11 more moves than in the "solution"
Instead of Bf7 it plays h5
@@ElSantoDeMostoles but in the page show have the line h5 too. Is longer safe but was not the main line of the puzzle
My $5 says that Nelson got the puzzle from 200 Brilliant Endgames By: Irving Chernev, which has the puzzle printed without the a4 pawn 😅
So there should be a black pawn on a4?
@@Dhrazor Yeah, which stops stockfish's plan in this video.
nelson apology video incoming
yeap
Oh, thats silly, so the actual thing that was wrong was that one book (if thats the case, which probably is)
Hey Nelson, Several people in the comments say that Black has a pawn on a4 but is not shown here. That might be the difference. First time seeing this though.
@Samuel Laufer the pawn is black
We are adding pieces to black to get white to win. Really funny 🤣.
@@tapiolouhi9047 The actual puzzle had a Black pawn on a4. Nelson forgot to put the pawn on a4 when showing the puzzle. I have already looked it up.
@@tapiolouhi9047 That's not even rare in puzzles. I believe there is even a genre that is kind of the opposite, where white has to get rid of a white piece (while leaving everything else the same) in some complicated way in order to succeed.
@@tapiolouhi9047 idk ive looked at my own pieces like "sweet Buddha i wish i could stab my own pawn"
There’s a black pawn on a4 in the original puzzle which prevents the queen idea
That would make the original puzzle flawless again...
The pawn would have to be on a3.
No, a white pawn would have to be on a3, a black pawn could be on a4.
@@johnkirby3?? There doesn't have to be any white pawn on the a file
@@64MilestotheGallonyeah, nelson did a lil mistake and didn’t put the pawn in the a file
If you’d like to see the puzzle and how it originally included a pawn on A4, the Arves Chess endgamestudy association has a whole webpage dedicated to the end games of Viktor Alexandrovich Evreinov
A white or black pawn anywhere along a2-a4 fixes this puzzle. (Edit: if the pawn is on a4, it has to be black, because a white one can simply be captured).
Yeah, that is a nice, simple fix to this puzzle.
so the youtuber wasted our time?
@@fs.jahahajjako8826 He made a mistake. It happens
@@fs.jahahajjako8826 It is a nice puzzle, and he shows the lines. I don't think it was a waste of time to watch this. The correction suggested above helps make the lines shown work properly, as imagined by the designer.
@@fs.jahahajjako8826 It was a mistake. There was actually a pawn on a4.
You forgot to put the black pawn on A4.
How he ruined (a) chess (study) hahahahah
@Chess Vibes the video that you made also has a flaw where there wasn't an A4 black pawn.There is a comment which said about this issue and I find out that it is indeed true.
I added the black pawn on a4 that was supposed to be there and stockfish found a way for black to delay it for longer.
As a complete chess noob, pawn to F7 actually came to my mind first when I saw the puzzle, this is oddly validating lol
Me too, i play on lichess (criticalcess123)
Lol same it seemed pretty obvious and as the video wen ton I accepted it as wrong only for stockfish to come back and say it was the right move.
Hello Nelson!
Good news Victor Alexandrovitch didn't make a mistake. In his winning study he put a black pawn on a4 square. Take a look at the picture in Russian Wikipedia related to this person.
So Stockfish still didn't ruin chess that much! :)
My idea was that instead of moving the bishop to block, black can just move the pawn forward that is next to the king. if you check the king now, it can just move. There's no checkmate.
You would just take the Queen with your own new Queen next move with checkmate, as it's still under attack by your bishop and only defended by blacks King.
Same
Black needs to move the pawn to H5 otherwise it would still be checkmate in 2 by white underpromoting to Knight. This does prevents checkmate for a while, but stockfish still says that it will be eventually checkmate by white since black still allows white to promote to Queen with easy access to checking the opposing King, while black doesn't.
If you try h5 instead of Bf7 for Black, white goes f7+ and when Black moves white plays f8 = Q which looks very dangerous for Black
@@marvinabt4964 What is the queen under an attack from? Where is the threat to c6?
there is supposed to be a pawn on a4 buddy
The fault lies not in Stockfish, but ourselves. -- Shakespeare, probably
I like how you can see the rubber duck chess board that he posts every day
You got the puzzle wrong there is a pawn on a4
I haven't seen this problem with a full citation but could it be that it was first published with no bPa4, then someone found that ...Qa4 refutes, then Evreinov added bPa4 and the problem was later published with this correction? It often happens that a problem is published which is a correction of a problem published earlier.
@@rosiefay7283 At very least in the page the TH-camr show have Bpa4, and explain the line h5
I let Stockfish analyse the game with the black a4 pawn and it is a win for white, but much more complex. Instead of playing Bf7, black plays h5 to create space for the king. From there it's a mate in 17 for white: 2. f7+ Kh7 3. f8=Q Qc7 4. Qf5+ Kh6 5. Qf6+ Kh7 6. Qh8+ Kg6 7. Qxg8+ Kf5 8. Qf7+ Qxf7 9. exf7 Ke6 10. f8=Q Kd5 11. Qd6+ Kc4 12. c6 e2 13. Qe6+ Kd3 14. c7 Kd2 15. c8=Q e1=Q+ 16. Qxe1+ Kxe1 17. Qc2 a3 18. Bc3#. So even with the black a4 pawn, this is quite a bit of an endgame and imo not really an elegant puzzle.
i aint reading allat
At 7:15 rook to G4 can be a checkmate as only move left is pawn to D4 and then white bishop to D4 is just checkmate
I saw this too
the line keeps going from there, because blacks pawn D4 comes with check, and white will never have time to pick up the pawn with the bishop.
I was about to comment the same thing, but then i found the check.
Yeah, doesn't work because Pawn to D4 is check by the black queen, you'll never get a chance to check the opponents king again.
This guy forgot to place black pawn on a3💀💀💀
a4
a3, a2 and a4 are all work
One day we will discover the last position you showed wasn't a draw...
Hi Nelson
I think we can save this position by simply placing the pawn on a2 or a3
6bk/7p/2q1PP2/2Pp4/3R4/5K2/P7/B7 w - - 0 1
Seems pretty easy to fix this as a puzzle problem. The solution works again as well if there is an extra pawn (from either side, but make it black so it seems more threatening) blocking the Queen's possible attack on the bishop. Or does stockfish find a new alternative?
What about:
1.Pf7 - black will attempt to stop the promotion by playing either BxP or Qc8/Qe8
2. Rg4 (discovering check from bishop, black king unable to move, so has to play Pd4)
3. BxP checkmate
If black plays 1.... Qa6 then
2. Rg4 check Qxa1
3. Pxg8 (promote to rook or queen) mate
And if black plays 1........ Qd6 (preventing the bishop from taking the pawn when it moves down), then
2. Rg4 check Pd4
3. Pxg8 (promote to Q or R) mate
Thanks for the video and your videos in general! They're always fun to watch and also I like the old puzzles a lot, much more than "modern studies" which are often so chaotic that it's almost impossible to follow. In my opinion, this is really something which was ruined by computers - chess composers are no longer satisfied with one or two mindblowing ideas in one study but they want to put "everything" into one single puzzle so the lines get ridiculous, unmanageable and therefore boring (for me).
I didn't believe that such a simple refutation could have been missed back then, so I checked it and the flaw is actually somewhere else, namely in the starting position because a black pwan on a4 is missing which is actually there in the original study (easy to google). So everything's fine with this great study :)
Nevertheless, there are definitely old puzzles which turned out to be flawed by computers. However, many of these flaws can be fixed by slightly adapting the starting position, so I don't think that Stockfish really "ruined" it :)
I wonder what stockfish would think of moving the a4 black pawn forward before moving the queen to a4 (original puzzle had a black pawn on a4 according to someone)
More like stockfish is UNREASONABLY good at using knights and queens, honestly. Their potential strings of movements/forks are just too complex for humans to grasp 30 moves ahead.
Something else, I think, depending on the skill of your opponent, is
Pawn:f7, Bishop×f7 to prevent promotion, Pawn×f7, Queen:C8 to prevent promotion, Rook×d5 leads to Checkmate with the bishop. King can't move forward because of Pawn, can't move out of corner because Bishop covers the diagonal and Pawn covers the sidestep.
It's obv not the solution since a better player would see it coming, but it's what I saw when looking at it lol
In my own self-analysis of the position I found h5 on move 2 of the puzzle which leads to a whole line of f7+ Kh7, f8=Q e3+, Kg1 Qc7, Qf5+ Kh6, Qf6+ Kh7, Qh8+ and white wins the bishop and presumably will go on to win the game.
This is all assuming there's a Black pawn on a4, as in the original puzzle.
I assume the original puzzle does have this line but it wasn't mentioned in the video and on engine analysis it's the top Stockfish line.
Nah, instead of f8=Q on third move you'd play f8=N++
@@last-chance8476 Aside from the emotional damage you deal from promoting to a Knight with check, this would be a game-losing blunder.
@@isaakvandaalen3899 it's not check, it's check mate going by your previous moves.
@@last-chance8476 Like I said, I checked stockfish and this is the top line. There is no faster checkmate assuming Black defends properly. Perhaps you're referring to a different position.
Chess puzzles uses to be so scuff, stockfish really helps remove bias and nonsense from them and not leave intelligent people scratching their heads for hours.
I honestly would love to see a video of more chess problems run through stockfish
Stockfish is basically the repository of all seen possibilities and variations, as seen through the minds of every great player whom contributed recordable data...it's like the ability to compose wondrous music without ever sounding a note personally. Stockfish is the repository of the artistry, which exists within us.
Nope, stockfish doesn't use the repository of seen possibilities but basically tries every possibility and checks the success rate
You come to correct a sentiment?
Don't bother
Maybe the analogy was there just for the hell of it
It's like the idiotic axiomatic ponderous statement Morpheus makes about the Matrix....no body can tell you what the Matrix is....
@@burtonaka___ you write like a 12 year old kid. and you have no idea of how stockfish actually works
Im having a hard time seeing whats wrong with the line starting with rg4. Any help would be appreciated :)
What about improving this puzzle by, for example, adding black pawns which will prevent the queen from moving Qa4?
In the original there was a black pawn on a4
I was legit so confused at why Nelson didn't explain Qa4 there cuz that's what I would have played as black, seems like its the flaw lol
I haven't checked this with Stockfish, but can't you get the intended effect if you start the puzzle with a black pawn on a4, or maybe a white pawn on a3?
Yeah that’s what the original puzzle is in this video he used a version that printed the puzzle wrong
5:11
I think the flaw is, if I were playing Black, after White's rook moves to e4, I'd move my pawn down to d4. This blocks the bishop's pin, and creates a queen's pin against White, since they now cannot move the rook to capture the pawn.
Now, bishop CAN take the pawn, which gives it center board while regaining the pin, so from there I think the game might go differently...
We are using the version he is using so we do not have a black pawn at a4. Now then, based on what you're saying I would go Bxd4. Now you're getting mated on next move so your best idea would be Qa4 attacking the bishop. f6 to f7 discovered attack check, you are forced to Qxd4. Rxd4.
Now you're most likely gonna go Bxf7 and so e6xf7. Kg7, Rf4 protecting the pawn that is about to promote. Kg6 or h6 doesn't matter because you will get ladder mated by rook and queen.
In case you decide after Bxd4 to move the bishop to f7 you get taken and your king cannot escape, meaning you have to Qxf6 check, which simply leads to you being taken by the bishop and getting mated.
Unless I missed some other legal move (or made any mistakes, I am currently half asleep staring into my phone) that does anything in these situations I see it as quite hopeless.
Yes the end game would go differently because you've just set yourself to be very quickly check mated after the bishop takes your pawn...
"That is something that would not have happened back in 1959"
"How did nobody question this move...how was this missed"
At 7:16 why does stockfish have you take the bishop?
Isn’t rook to g4 checkmate?
Best move for black after pawn f7 would be to pawn h5 instead of taking with the bishop (moving to h6 would set up a mate in 2) or queen a4
Or am I overlooking something?
It's not ruining. It's revealing. Revealing the flaws and maybe even hints of corruption.
Nice reflection around this puzzle. Depending on the time at the clock at a late game most players would accept the "free rook" bait, so nice puzzle anyway.
Also at any point Black moves H7 pawn the turn they figure the bishop would move. and check mate is no longer possible with that move set. So ignoring the queen take bishop there is still a vary clear stall that can happen anyways. I mean they could rush E6 up but black's queen takes it before promote.
I found that trying to figure it out first so I figured I can't find checkmate because of the pawn move anyways. White doesn't have enough pressure to checkmate.
f7 would've been my opening move in that position because moving the rook allows black's pawn to advance, blocking the bishop's diagonal.
I agree. Blacks only move that doesn't get mate in 1 is to move the h7 pawn
I like how stockfish's line that started with the pawn was my first thought seeing the board
I agree that it seems like Qa4 is a strange thing to overlook, especially since that simply adding a white or black pawn on a2 or a3 could possibly solve the flaw in the puzzle
As you may have noticed (if not, read the comments), the original puzzle had a black pawn on a4. The reason why Stockfish could win the position is that it's not the position from the puzzle.
Looks like Stockfish fixed chess yet again.
i am pretty new to puzzles, and this learned me, that not only the main figurs are important. also the pawns blocking the figures
Maybe there was supposed to be a pawn in a-line blocking the queen attack, but was forgotten to place there. White pawn in a2 or a3 or black in a4 or any combo of them would do the trick.
It should be a black pawn on a4. Wrong starting position of the study and wrong title of the video. Please correct.
the position is incorrect, you forgot to place a black pawn on a4
Very interesting video and position.
IMO Stockfish is the best and the worst thing that happened to chess.
Computers are an amazing tool to improve and bring chess to a higher level, no debate, but at the same time, chess at top level is oftentimes drawish and boring. In the opening (and even middle game sometimes) you're not facing your opponent, you're literally facing stockfish.
9:04😂
Drawish doesn't equal boring, and people exaggerate the extent to which matches end in a draw. Most matches, percentage-wise, don't actually end with a draw. Yes, draws occur way more often now than they used to in the past, but that makes the game more interesting, not less. People are just looking for beauty in the game in the wrong places, because they don't understand what makes this game so amazing.
i mean that's the problem with chess as a whole. U know if it wasnt for stockfish, humans would found openings/midgames after years of research and we would end up in the same position
@@benismann Exactly. Humans have already solved other games before too without computers. This isn't a problem with computers. That's just the nature of games. Ultimately, all board games boild down to just extremely complicated logic exercises that can be solved. Once you solve them, there's that. And ultimately, computers are just another tool for studying logic. There isn't anything particular special about them beyond their calculation capabilities. If Stockfish is a problem, then books are a problem too, by the same token.
My 800 elo brain immediately knew how to solve this puzzle, I also just did not see the checkmate threat and thought "ooga booga attack Bishup" but I'm taking this W.
My question is knowing that Stockfish found this flaw, is there a way to fix the puzzle so it works the way it’s intended? I know it wouldn’t be the same thing in spirit but could the addition of a pawn at a2 (or something like that) prevent the bishop attack enough to allow the puzzle to run its course?
Stockfish: Has ruined chess by finding a flaw found by no one
the recommended video: Stockfish Can't Solve This Chess Puzzle 😮
If the queen attacks the e pawn and checked the rook, just temporarily move the rook to g3 or g2 where the king is protecting it try to checkmate it
It occurs to me that after black moves the queen, white should move c6 to free up another diagonal for the bishop. With the white pawn holding the black king on row 8, the white bishop might be able to put the black king in checkmate. I haven't tried it out, so it may not work.
I found it instantly after you said there is something wrong in this position
7:38, what is stopping bishop from putting king in check, forcing it to take and allowing pawn to promote?
Question: pawn to f7, IF black takes it with bishop, then rook to g4, checkmate?
There's a black pawn on a4. I believe you missed it?
"If closer examination breaks something, then it was already broken to begin with."
Seems like there's conflicting sources on if there's a pawn on a4 or not. Some pictures do show it, some don't.
Pawn to f7 and rook to g4 is a stunning checkmate any corrections please....???
at 7:14 how do you stop Rg4? (you can go back a few secs to see what i mean/ a move or two)
1.f7 Bxf7 2.Rg4+?? loses to the discovered check 2...d4+.
Am looking at this right? After 1. f7, Bxf7 Don't capture with the pawn, 2. Rg4 check, d4 3. Bxd4 mate.
I missed 2. d4 is check.
I was thinking about pawn push a second after seeing position but i didn't knew it would lead to draw
Stockfish ruins chess for me everytime I analyse one of my wins.
Move pawn to F7. If bishop takes it you can take it with another pawn then queen will either block promotion of pawn or can kill bishop. If queen moves you can kill pawn using rook and it will be a check
Yeah, the biggest problem with great strategies is that for some reason the opponent doesn’t want to follow them 😢
Qa4 was the 1st move I looked at when I saw the base puzzle.
But it was protected by the rook so I ignored it.
I thought immediately when watching for the fist time that the queen should attack the bishop on that move. I was thinking further down the A file, though. I thought of it because that’s what I would do, as a first instinct, since I knew the pawn was still 2 miles away from promoting. It was the first chance the queen had to attack.
I like pawn to f7, black has no check depending on black move, follow rook to g4 if why does not mate, white should promote. What does Stockfish do? Push the pawn?
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.” - Carl Sagan
It sounds like Viktor was RPing playing chess instead of playing the game itself
Weird I spotted attacking the bishop immediately. But there follows a sequence requiring very high accuracy; I think that's what I would mess up.
Haven't read the comments yet but once pawn promotes to a queen or even a rook its checkmate as you cant move into check (blackqueen taking promoted peice)
Would it fix the puzzle if we gave white a pawn on b3? Or alternatively maybe give black a pawn on a4? Something that stops the queen move.
I also thought exchanging the pawns would be best play without considering the rook move.
So your telling me that stockfish has found a cheese.
The puzzle maker could probably just add another pawn to fix it.
After Kg1, black can move the queen anywhere on the a file. Even h5 is better than Bf7, because it gives the king some breathing room! We thought we were so clever, but Stockfish has showed us how silly we are. 😄But still, an interesting puzzle. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
What's wrong with pawn f7?
Doesn't matter what the opponent is doing, rook to g4 and its discovered check?
Am I overlooking something?
d4 is a discovered check on the white king and blocks the bishop. In the long run, that variation is a win for black.
The move I guessed at the start was f7 right away. I feel very proud of myself lol
I think it would be interesting to play the position from the 07:45 mark. It looks like bishop to E5 is a good move for white since it is a big threat. Black may be able to avoid it with perpetual check, otherwise it looks like white will win.
Hey, Nelson. I have a question. Why can't Black move his h pawn?
I have a question, can't black move his pawn in front of the king so that the king could escape? Please correct me if I am wrong
At 7:15 what if you move your rook to g4 isn’t it checkmate or am I missing something?
What if you don’t take the bishop with our pawn???
What about moving the pawn in front if king instead of BxF7?
“stockfish ruined an ancient game from 2000 years ago that people treat like a video game now”
I have followed an apps 'hint' and after I made the move, they called it a blunder.🤣
Stockfish stole my move
7:12
When stockfish played Bxf7 after the move f7, you could have played Rg4#
nope - black plays d4 CHECK and wins :)
im bad at chess, what stopping black from pushing the h pawn and avoiding checkmate?
I'm not a chess expert and saw it (I don't qualify as chess amateur, but I watched chess problems for like 3 weeks now woaw). Then I red in the description about the missing black A4 pawn and bam, made sense ! Merry Xmas
The technical term for this kind of thing in the world of puzzle competitions is a "cook". That it was overlooked (since the taking of the rook is not forced) shows only that the puzzle competition was not all that well judged.
Im glad that my first thought, pushing the pawn is what stockfish thought, so Im not completely lost at chess
Bobby Fischer turned 16 in 1959, did anyone ask him? 🙂
I tried to read all the comments but there might be a flaw at both stockfish and at first solution. I might be wrong though not entirely sure but if white starts with pawn f7 and continues with rook g4 is there anyway for black to stop check mate? I simply cant see how black could stop it so if any of you have any answers for that please enlighten me
d4 is a discovered check on the white king, and blocks the white bishop. In the long run, the variation is a win for black.
'Thats why the reply cant be black pawn to d4'
Yes, it can, as it is a discovered check against the white king, and gives white to escape through Kg7.
I do wonder... Would adding a white pawn to b3 make the puzzle work?
The instant I saw Bf7, I knew that black had to have other rational options. It took maybe another second to see that attacking the Bishop had to be good. I did not yet know that Bf7 failed, but over the board my first instinct was to attack the bishop.
But if you just add a pawn in front of the bishop, the ouzzle works again, am I right?