Even if I don't agree that the game literally takes place in Marika's psyche I think you have some of the best artistic analysis for this game. Art is all about symbolism and what it is trying to tell us about the real world, and no matter what, I think your videos are invaluable to understanding the message of Elden Ring. Thanks for another great video!
Very good video and very convincing thematic ties. I especially like the ideas of how the DLC connects. I just have one major problem with this line of thinking. To take the thematic tales around Marika so far as to say the game world itself is inside her psyche, to me makes it seem like all the storytelling of the game world is irrelevant and not rooted in an actual world history of the lands between. I don’t think that’s something GRRM had in mind when writing the history as that history would be nothing more than a thematic image. It also makes you question all the non-demigod stories in the game and how those relate to Marika’s psyche. Are they simply residents of her imagination? And we also have places, like the Roundtable hold, that are actively tied to a mind-scape of Marika or sub dimension. Those seem to throw a wrench into this idea just in my opinion. That being said, there is absolutely truth to these observations, I’m just not sure if it would be 100% all encompassing of the lands between as a whole
I think we give too much credit to the characters and their ability to impact the world of lands between. The outer gods are OUTER GODS like in Berserk “Man has no control, even over his own will” *cough cough* Marika This is a story about Marika vs. Golden Order with MARIKA being on the side of crucible, hence why Godwyn makes peace with dragons Omen are cast out and not killed entirely, and why I believe it is the Goldden Order speaking through Marika when we are told to have no mercy for demigods why?? Cause Demi gods are all followers of outer gods of the crucible Also the crucible is simply the land or the “soup” aka great tree which grew from this soup as we became intelligent and started burying the dead This tree grew so big that death was the fear of the land or “god” or fear of god…. Get it? making Golden Order Say hold up I STARTED THIS SHIT THIS IS MY LAND. MARIKA shattered the ring to save her family of the crucible this is why she shattered the ring fighting against the golden order OF the greater will (the kingdom of outer gods over the lands between) again MARIKA IS FIGHTING HERSELF ALONG WITH THE HELP OF RADAGON TO SHATTER THE RING SO THAT THEY BECOME ONE WITH THE RING THE FINAL BOSS IS THE GOLDEN ORDER I REPEAT THE GOLDEN ORDER NOT NECESSARILY Marika or Radagon
This isn't an either/or scenario thankfully. He's not doing a straightforward lore analysis so much. It's somewhere closer to a literary analysis. In that light, it's pretty damn good.
Phenomenal video. It's the birds eye approach that ER lore needs. You're right it's the tree trunk that ties all the lore branches together. Looking forward to what comes next.
Well, you've completely opened my eyes to viewing this game through a new lense. The bigger meaning you present makes way too much sense through the scope of Jung's work. Two years later and this game continues to feel fresh. Even more so now after watching this. Excellent work man, i can't congratulate you enough. Not sure if it's been done yet, but I'm going to share your work any chance i get to fellow lore hunters.
This is it. Since the first minutes in this game I've always had in the back of my mind the feeling that Jungian Psychology would have been the keystone to untangle the central theme of this world, but I didn't dispose of the proper tools to unravel all the symbolism that the game throws at you, leaving me overwhelmed by the task. Now the puzzle fits together: as Myazaki himself stated ( and as the game itself portraits it) the Elden Ring is the metaphysical embodiement of the 'world rules' Marika chose (or preferably, were imposed to her) for her kingdom. The rejection of the shadow ( the Rune of Death) that is not accepted but instead delegated to Maliketh and caged away, subsequentially bleaking in with the death of his ego, Godwyn... this is so good man. Personally I think the game's world is not the literal 'Marika's Psyche' but rather the reflection of it, molded by her own actions (she's a God and ruler of the world after all, no need to delve into someone psyche when that individual has the power to shape the world at her own will). I think you've nailed and I'm grateful for the amazing job you have done. Your channel is true gold, unalloyed gold.
Thanks for the king words! Agreed on Marika's psyche vs a reflection of it - the only thing that may shake that is the Elden Ring/ Great Runes. They seem to be highly charged emotional states that "infect" their bearers and act as the "rules" of Marika's inner world ...... and come from inside Marika lol. That being said, I think it's however fits best in your mind that ultimately counts!
@@CenteredTarnished Absolutely! As the old finger reader in the hub says, the shard bearers are all 'children of Marika', so maybe the 'inner infection' post Rune beared can be justified by the crambling of their mother/father (Marika/Radagon) inner state, reflected upon their children
you are BY FAR the most underrated loretuber.... you and Tarnished Archeologist are the two best... BY FAR... vaati... smough.... those guys have their place as the surface level lore fountains.... but... for those of us who realize there is WAYYYY more being told through even just the archway relief symbology, and that literally every single thing is there for a reason, purpose, and has a deeper symbological meaning... there is not anyone else out there making stuff like this.
love it all. I always liked the "literalized metaphor" aspect of these games, and looking at it as a materialized psychological framework makes so much sense! please never quit
Wow. I am really impressed with this analysis. This is the first time I’ve heard of mericka being analyzed in this way and it actually takes the story and turns it into something very sad and beautifully tragic. Looking forward to more of your content
People with other theories out there might be experiencing some defence mechanisms, finding it difficult admitting they were wrong. As if that equalled failure. Really like your work! I for one feel that you applying jungs work to this game is the only theory that holds up in most regards for me. No other can fullt tie the knot. Thank you
I feel Centered Tarnished comes the closest to a unified theory of Elden Ring lore. The one area I'd push back is on Ranni's ending. I don't agree Ranni's ending is nihilistic or alludes to a life-ending action. This ending possibly exists, but in the flame of frenzy ending. Instead, I see Ranni's ending as one where we help Marika end the ridged self-denying ego she constructed in the form of Golden order fundamentalism. Through Ranni as a representation of her lost child, she learns to embrace the memory of her pain and go on a journey of self-discovery and healing. The corrected Japanese translation of Ranni's lines both in the ending cut scene and when see talk to her doll in Ranni's Rise support this view.
@@CenteredTarnished I don't think I can post links here but the article "Elden Ring: Ranni’s Age of Stars ending mistranslations explained" by the website Frontline Gaming Japan explains the dialogue mistranslations fairly well.
Absolutely insane video and I can't believe how well it all lines up. I seriously thought I had somewhat of an understanding of what was happening throughout the game, and never could have conceived of something like this. One minor thing though that I noticed, at 56:41 you briefly mention there being room for another throne. When looking at all the thrones at once (the white text is covering up the other 3 in the video), it looks like Miquella and Malenia's are just closer together than any of the others, probably just showing how close they were. I don't really think a fourth one was ever supposed to fit in the left side
The actual shot of the Shadow of the Erdtree from the trailer looks absolutely incredible! The dark veil surrounding the tree with the stunning look of the sky in the background looks so cool! I really like the theme of the expansion being a shadow realm type thing because everything looks more dark & twisted even compared to the base game…..and I love what I’m seeing!
The entire game is a masterpiece encompassing the two biggest mysteries: the human brain, and the universe. You’ve unlocked one part, and there are other channels that are piecing together other parts. It’s all playing out exactly how this madman known as Miyazaki intended… Thanks for putting these videos together, your lens is very useful for understanding so much of the hidden meaning in this wonderful universe of ER. Cheers!
This is the exact kind of perspective shift I was looking for. Very excited to dive into more of your videos. I would love to hear more about your perspective on the piece of the Elden Ring that Marika retains, Radagon's role in its retention (through his repairing), and Radagon's shared identity with Marika. To push back on your perspective -- Miyazaki & GRRM tend to write more about society, history, and time. I find the story taking place in Marika's psyche limits some themes present within the game. Particularly, themes surrounding imperialism, how conquering cultures incorporates and discards aspects of other cultures. I'm definitely factoring your narrative into my understanding of the lore & story -- yet, I think your narrative aligns more closely with an analysis of Marika, the metaphysics of a god/ the elden ring, and the golden order -- rather than the whole world.
Positively brilliant, as you seem to always achieve with each of your uploads. A very unique perspective. Whilst I think Marika’s psyche is definitely largely at play in a world she has/had so much power over, I struggle to accept that the game truly does take place in her psyche entirely. But I marvel at your theories and your stunning capability for tethering down details into something that is quite captivating and thoroughly thought provoking. Wandering through wonderment. It brings me great joy to have the opportunity to experience your view points in such an entertaining and informative fashion. Thank you!
Thank you! Just out of curiosity (because this reaction is common - about not accepting it's taking place in Marika's psyche), what do you think about the Shadow Lands being draped in her bedchamber veils? How do you see this or explain it? Honestly not trying to argue or convince you of anything - just genuinely curious.
@@CenteredTarnished I don’t think it is. Marika is a god with illusory powers. A GOD. So we don’t know yet what that fully entails. But I certainly don’t think we become miniature along with everyone else in her bed chambers. I believe the veil cast over the shadow lands is massive. A Baldachin draped across the sky in such a way that only a goddess can do. In my mind it continues on with her Christian Mythos iconography. The story of her hiding away a baby that should not be. Perhaps her first child with Radagan during the reign of Godfrey. It reminds me of Mary Magdalene. It reminds me of Melusine with her transformation secret who was a dragon queen that danced her ring eternal. Both of these women fled across a sea with their babies. I think Marika did something similar. With the veil being cast literally into the shadow of the erdtree. “You must go, must flee. For they will hunt you down. You and your unborn seed. In all of Gaul is there safety? Les Saint Marie de La Mer, you will dance the ring. Marys of the sea, the lost bride weeps…” -Tori Amos - Marys of the sea. A song she wrote also about Mary Magdalene and Melusine. Strangely Marika's actions and even a bit of her story and iconography harken back to these tales for me. Even if they're just meant to hint at something else, this is where my mind has wandered. I am almost certain I am wrong. But I am one hundred percent certain I am supposed to be thinking what I am thinking. I am supposed to find the stories in the details. So too are you. You're supposed to be finding all of the reasons why this is all happening in her psyche. Because I fully believe it could be doing all of these things at once or that we are being led to entertain those ideas. But only the most brilliant among us and most skilled in likening their theories to this story craft are going to be able to communicate it the way that you have. So I dont think either of us are "wrong" per se. But i do think we are probably missing pieces of the story that we havent even been fully exposed to yet lol and that we are meant to speculate the way that we are. "I know it in my bones. A tarnished cannot unravel the entire story. Miyazaki has high hopes for us, that we will live and die and continue the cycle, becoming stronger and stronger into eternity." lol
@@CenteredTarnished Thank you! I quite like yours as well and have for a good while now. I do think Jung is applicable for a reason. =-) I also edited my take heavily at about the same time you responded lol so hopefully that jibber jabber makes some semblance of sense =-D
This line of thinking really helps construct a better understanding of what this game and its world actually are. I was having difficulty with the concept of the elden ring representing aspects of reality in a physical reality and what it meant that it was then broken. When the frame is shifted from an outer physical universe to an inner metaphysical universe, the shattering and its effects make much more sense. Thank you for your exploring past the 'what is it' and delving into the 'what does it mean.'
This analysis is beyond imagination, man! It makes so much sense and, even if i dont take literally some ideas, the refreshing view that you are giving to Elden Ring's world is just unforgettable. I appreciate it so much that you're not giving just the information we all already know, you go beyond that... Amazing work! By the way, what is the soundtrack you're using? It's incredibly beautiful!!
I like the idea that the lands between is Merika’s psyche made physical, passing the elden ring to another is allowing them to form the world in the same way. I also like that the tarnished are healing Merika’s soul to allow her to pass on almost like she has been resisting death and stagnated. But I’ll disagree about Ranni’s ending. It’s about letting go of faith and fate and allowing logic to take hold of the future.
I will add to this and say that Marika is wanting us, the Tarnished, to end her suffering. it is Radagon who is grasping at the last shreds of the Golden Order that he finds so precious, while Marika is over the whole thing but cannot even leave the Erdtree because she is a vessel for the Ring and Radagon adds his thorns
I do think the smouldering butterflies are Melina's butterflies. I fully agree with you. I do not think Messmer has butterflies. I think those pink butterflies are St. Trina's butterflies. They do make an appearance in the Haligtree, but we simply cannot collect them. But they are easily observable inside the tree, in the area where you find the rotted ulcerated tree spirit and all of Millicent's sisters. Pink butterflies and soft, pale lilies everywhere. Not to mention in the room where we fight Melania. That room itself is full of fully blossoming, not whithering St. Trina's lilies. We also find her slumbering. I think Messmer was mocking both Marika AND us, the tarnished, when he speaks those awesome words in the trailer. I think so much of what you think aligns with what I think. But there is some meaningful divergence in how we see the over arching prevalence of Marika's psyche. Where you think we are existing within it, and I think she is expressing it outside of her. But I agree with you that Messmer was born in the shadow realms. When Marika whisked him away in an effort to hide him. But I also think Marika is a more sympathetic character than you do, I think. I think some of the things she did aren't given enough reason and so then to us she just looks like an arsehole. But I don't think that's the case. For example when she is telling her demigod children that they must make something of themselves or she is going to sacrifice them. I don't think that is what she was saying at all nor do i think they appropriately captures her tone. She tells them, they can make anything they want to make of themselves. Be it a Lord, be it a god. But if they do not make something of themselves, she fears, they will be sacrificed by... something/someone else. Whether that is Radagon the usurper or the "Greater Will", I cannot say obviously but I am speculating about that. I think Master Hewg is a very telling character. He prays to her lovingly, pleadingly. He does not seem lashed to his duty to Marika outside of a passion within himself. It seems like the only thing he does actually allow himself to care about, until Roderika comes along and she reminds him of someone else he once met... I think when Master Hewg says "Oh the terror of her..." I don't think he was talking about how terrifying Marika is. I think he was talking about how terrified Marika was, herself. Anyway, thank you for being one of my favourite lore content creators. So much of what you are saying is so enlightening and so valuable and so unique to this community but also very, very revealing in ways no one else's theories are. Because as stated before, I believe Marika's psyche is obviously very relevant here. But I think the distinction between our views is that I believe Marika's psyche is manifesting outside of herself. Where as you believe we are operating within it. Anyway, thank you again. Sorry I am blowing up your comment section. =-)
Haha no reason to apologies to me! I totally agree that Marika is just a lady going through some shit and not an evil, harsh character that the mainstream seems to be fixed on. I mean GRRM and Miyazaki both rarely make good or bad character's...... just very human one's with tones of grey. Wondering what you hesitance is on Marika's psyche vs a reflection of it tho. This is again a common comment so wanted to get your take on why you feel this way. And how you tie that to the Elden Ring/ Great Runes that come from Marika herself. Thanks!
@@CenteredTarnished I think the reason why we are not operating within her psyche is because then what are we, the legion of tarnished that the main story seems to acknowledge not only are returning en masse but are also interacting with each other. Are we also Marika relearning her entire story? But why are we blind to so much of it? I honestly think it doesn’t make sense that so many other beings are breaching her psyche. But something about the lands between reminds me so much of the neverending story. Something about this world DOES feel as though it is almost breaking the third wall. Like are is us accessing the lands between via playing Elden ring and engaging with the “cycle,” is this literally part of the story? Are we playing into Miquella and Marika’s hands the moment we purchase the game and create a character and log in? It’s something I think about sometimes. In that way it does seem possible that the ring eternal is simply the game. But I still just don’t think so. Instead, I think Marika is manifesting and projecting her psyche into the lands between. There are far too many characters with far too much rich history and lore for this to all be metaphorical references to a single individual’s psyche. Each character with their own story and long lineage. Each relic, each ruin, each strange geological formation, every piece of this land is queer enough to be a fully psychological place. But that seems too singularly faceted in my opinion. There are too many references to too many mythos and histories and stories ranging from Irish mythology to Greek mythology, references to all manner of real world history, as I have said before, Mary Magdalene and Melusine. Boudicca as well. In fact, Marika’s very name is a literal mix of Mary and Boudicca. Perhaps my heart simply wants this to be more than just us entering into one traumatised woman’s head. But still I do not think so. I would certainly like to know for sure, though. I’m sorry I can’t give you an answer that dissuades you from your line of thinking. But to be honest, I don’t want to dissuade you. I love the content you create and I think you’re right about it all. I just think the lands between and the shadow realm are both lands outside of Marika and all of the beings with all of their stories and all of their interactions and all of their agendas etc… are all independent of her.
Nice! I am in no way married to the idea that it is all taking place in her psyche, just the way I interpret it. To be honest, I don't think there is much of a difference in thinking it's actually in her head or a projection of it. I mean, reality is all about how we, individually, perceive things.
You're a great storyteller! I honestly don't think that any of this is what the creators intended but if anything that makes it even more impressive you were able to justify it so well.
Its crazy that such psychological elements could be hidden beneath a natural world thats the land between. Although you are correct in that this theory need some exploration to account for all the side elements of the world.
We don't really have a timeline to know when or how Radagon came to exist. He could've always been a part of Marika and that would put Messmer's birth at any point in time (If he comes from them). I think losing Messmer is what probably made her remove death from the order eternally, and then when even after removing death itself, Godwyn died anyways, she lost it. Hence why she just shattered the Ring. Its order was useless.
I agree with you that she shattered the ER because the "order" was useless and flawed. However, I think we have enough evidence (in my opinion) that Marika created this Order during her childhood. Meaning that the confining of DD would have been brought about from a death of a parent, sibling, childhood friend or some other major relationship in that part of her life. Again, just my speculation.
@@CenteredTarnished It's fair! I like coming up with new theories because it helps me cope with my undying thirst of knowing what's actually in the dlc. I really liked your channel and your way of explaining things so i'm looking forward for your new vids!
Amazing video,this channel truly is underrated. I consider Mesmer to be one of the dead demigods which were killed during the night of the black knives.Why?Theres clues suggesting he existed at one point in the lands between.In Morgotts cutscene amongst the many royal chairs dedicated to the demigods we see a conspicuous gap between Godricks seat and Malenias seat.Theres also reason to think the actual erdtree rn has been burned before and the thing we see is somesort of projection of what once was,we see plenty of ash in Leyndell even when we arrive (we know Messmer uses his own brand of fire which looks like something between the giants flame and the briars of punishment).The red snake themselves appear on the depraved perfumers set,meaning the snake was not always seen as the symbol of blasphemy.
ive always thought the omen twins are actually looked upon more favorably by Marika than it seems. Mohg guards an erdtree favor talisman in the sewers, and morgott seems to have a pretty big responsibility as well
Kind of.... but it might be more apt to say the Shadow Lands would represent purgatory. I take the lands between to be be the place between the ego-conscious and shadowy/ chaotic unconscious. If you look at the tree in this, you can see what I am talking about. 2 circles at the trunk of the tree one white, one black, that are overlapping and the space between is grey..... a place between. www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FQuotesPorn%2Fcomments%2F24xf0v%2Fno_tree_it_is_said_can_grow_to_heaven_carl_jung%2F&psig=AOvVaw3L1rwO1O98wtZbhBL_W1T3&ust=1709682395139000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBMQjRxqFwoTCJjJpq_l24QDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE I have talked about it before but the fact that the Lands Between harbors misbegottens, omens, dragons, serpents, and more.... while at the same time harboring the golden order, erdtree, etc. It's like these 2 worlds are bleeding into each other. Another great visual is the ego-self axis shown here: carilynn27.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/ego-self-axis.jpg The blended area is what I call the Lands Between. Ego= erdtree/ golden order/ all things golden. Self = Crucible/ shadow lands and we are wandering in this in between space. Hope that helps!
I mean that's what being a real godlike figure is, the entire universe is your subconscious. A God's not just a dude waiting in a tree for you to show up with a Katana and slay him. I have no problem with the theory while still treating the ingame events as their occur. The PC kills everyone then lives happily ever after with his blue GF. Would've been funny if the final shot showed a blonde woman sitting in a mental asylum with no context, would've given the lorediggers something to chew on. There's this other channel explaining all of Bloodborne through the motive of victorian era medicine and surgery. Sadly isn't too popular either. I don't think it takes away from what's in the game but adds another layer and it's crazy that the creators seemingly put it there and noone noticed before. People tend to put so much weight on what's said and the "item descriptions". I think we should only take for granted what we see and experience in game. Everything else could be lies and unreliable narration. I don't think there's a Greater Will either because he never shows up just like Jhw.
I think you're closer to Miyazaki's veiled meaning of this game than many people who pick at only the face value elements of his lore. This goes beyond the veil and shows his true genius. The story of Elden Ring is not just the face value, it doesn't mean the face value layer isn't relevant or important.
Funny that you should bring up Queen Yharnam. I've a thought that Miquella went to the shadowlands to find the soul of a souless companion as a parallel to Orpheus travelling to the underworld to retreive the soul of Eurydice, an oak nymph who was bitten by a snake on her wedding day and died. Coincidental then that Queen Yharnam appears as a kind of undead wearing a wedding dress. This is a tangent though as I do think that you're generally doing good investigation into the Jungian complexes and shadow.
Jack the mimic figured out here on TH-cam. The title shows merika is pooling up the souls from passing into the realm of death. The runes on the title tell the whole story
Me too! I would love the opportunity to talk so those more recognized lore hunters and just go over everything. I think their incredible information of the lore and my psychological take could really help everything come together. Start a petition and get me on there haha!
Thank you YT-Algorithm for suggesting me this video and thank you Centered Tarnished for making it. As a recent Psy-graduate and huge CG Jung fan this was so satisfying to watch :D Radagon stood out to me as an Animus-like figure before but interpreting the Gloam-Eyed Queen as the Individual Shadow and Miquella made my jaw drop. Btw. In your theory Melina (Self) and the Gloam-Eyed Queen (Individual Shadow) are two separate entities. Do you have an idea why Melina then appears like the queen in the Frenzy-ending?
Thank you! The way I interpret the FF ending is something akin to a complete mental break/ psychosis where the ego-consciousness is completely "burned away" and all that remains is the chaotic unconscious. I think the GEQ appears because it's all that is left..... only the shadow remains. Basically a complete reversal of the current world order.
@@CenteredTarnished This would make a lot of sense. Building on your theory, in my eyes the endings represent different ways to deal with trauma. Goldmask’s being suppression of the Unconscious and FF the total victory of the Unconscious. Jung was convinced that Conscious and Unconscious had to be balanced and if either side became too dominant, this would lead to neuroses. But no ending of Elden Ring gives me the feeling of Balance and Miyazaki stated that the DLC won’t add any new ending. I wonder if we are missing something when it comes to interpreting the endings. Many consider Ranni’s ending the “happy” one but it doesn’t seem this way to me. Marika ends up being destroyed and the Lands between left behind.
@@orpheus3477 I agree that it's strange the endings won't change but Miyazaki states there will be a finality to the DLC which will be apparent. I think it's possible that the Lands Between are "vacant" and it doesn't really matter what happens there as it seems like Marika is no longer there. The GW and connection is gone, Marika is not even a person anymore and lies inanimate - I think her consciousness is now in the Shadow Lands for good. And the ending of the DLC will be the "true/final" ending of ER where balance is finally an option. This would line up with the fact that the events in the Shadow Lands are on the same timeline as the Lands Between. As soon as she shatters the ER, her journey to the Shadow Lands began - abandoning her once place of Godhood in pursuit of wholeness.
@@CenteredTarnished I imagine that the DLC might give us an ending that changes the context of all the main game endings. Just as defeating the Orphan in Bloodborne changed how we perceived Gehrman’s imprisonment or defeating Gael in DS3 put this whole idea of a new world after the fire will have faded on the table. Anyway, I am really looking forward to your future content! Your theory has re-ignited some ideas I had about some of the lore-roadblocks in ER. For example Rennala’s obsession with birthing children or Godefroy’s existence. These aspects couldn’t be explained by traditional lore hunting for 2 years now but, I think, seen as archetypes they are pretty understandable.
37:26 though I'm still hesitant about the fetus resemblance, I can't deny that the bottom of the mountaintops has a section which looks incredibly similar to a nose and mouth
Well this is certainly a take. I agree with some of the thematic parallels you raise, but am also very doubtful on some others. For the most eyebrow-raising one, the shape of the world argument is very, *very* tenuous, and I think I'd even find your whole interpretation more convincing without it. I don't think the Land of Shadows will turn out to be purely metaphysical, I believe it's more likely it was part of the world at some point and got hidden away. In that sense if we imagine a land that includes it and that would have existed before any supposed "implied trauma", then I'm not certain how you'd factor that in your theory. I agree this is a bit of a mundane point to raise in regard to your whole interpretation but ultimately it also raises the question of Messmer's origins, since I don't believe he was born there after the separation but before. This would remove this whole "child lost to miscarriage" characteristic and make him more of a "discarded" one. Messmer's relation to Marika will be a very interesting one to see since I don't get the feeling there's bad blood between the two. He seems to me more like he's happy to handle his mother's dirty laundry, but of course that's purely just a feeling at this point. To me the DLC will be about laying bare all the things Marika had to do to bring about her Order but could not actually get rid of, which ultimately held her Order back and, notably, prevented her age of plenty to be long-lived. The things she did but would not condone in her preaching, the fly in the ointment, as some would say. Then there's also smaller issues which you raise yourself regarding this take not being holistic. For example, the Iron Maidens and their visual appearance might fit your interpretation, but then again the text surrounding them and the environment storytelling around them on the other hand is *never* associated with Marika. Then again your video is overall more of a thematic interpretation than anything, and in that sense it's entirely valid. Even if I think it's ultimately very rooted in psychoanalytical thinking which leaves me largely unconvinced.
I think I see the "metaphysical" shadow lands and the real-life, but veiled away shadow lands as one and the same. I mean, if there is a place literally called the "shadow" land hidden from the world and held within it are all the repressed aspects of Marika's order.......... it's the same thing - just however you want to interpret them i think. I am always surprised when people don't see the map as a fetus...... it quite literally has an umbilical cord and a dead body at the top of that divine tower. The theme of infant birth and death is found everywhere in the game (regardless of if you think it's tied to Marika or not). Not to mention we are going to a shadow land where a missing child is...... and Marika is holding a baby in the background. IF there weren't all these other narrative devices telling us the same story and you take the map singularly, then I could see your point. Most of my theory is certainly speculation.... but I am nearly 100% sure on that one aspect. There are just too many arrows pointing directly to it. Miyazaki himself said the shadow lands aren't part of the lands between, so I don't see it adding to that map per se. Because I believe we are operating inside Marika's psyche and the Demigods are complexes of her's, then everything is connected to Marika - including the Iron Maidens. Again, if they looked like Tanith or wore a different dress, and Marika wasn't holding Messmer in his boss room, and 100 other things, then I would never have connected them. Just like the map, if taken singularly, the connection is loose at best, but when compounded with all the other clues, it's hard not to make the connection. The last thing I will say is; if you are waiting for Miyazaki to make a direct connection with any of his lore.......... we will be waiting for a very long time. He leaves the breadcrumbs, it's up to us to follow.
@@CenteredTarnished I definitely see the imagery and theming around birth, it absolutely is a central element and a big part of why the Lands Between are depicted as stagnant. To say the map is shaped as a fetus on the other hand is kind of something else. If I'm going to read the Divine Tower of Liurnia as an umbilical cord, how should I read the other five ? And the rest of the appendices like the Caelid Colosseum ? Regarding Miyazaki's quote, the IGN interview says that "it technically occupies the same space but has become physically disconnected". A translation of the Famitsu one goes as far as to say "It has been removed from and hidden from the outside world and this veil is a symbol of that.". Emphasis on it having become the way it is. But it's a bit of a technicality, as it doesn't necessarily remove from the thematic interpretation you're making of it, mainly from the fetus shape idea.
Another awesome video! I am saving your vids to watch again after the DLC comes out to see how much is accurate, though I'm sure you'll make some videos when the time comes. Also, what's the music playlist you use for the video?
Have you ever read the item description for the memory of grace item? It seems to imply that our me is one. That is a cycle and never-ending, which would support the endgame mechanic of new game plus but also has interesting implications with lower and marika the eternal.
[SPOILER] You tying the concept of suicide to Ranni makes so much sense just due to how her ending goes. Her ending is the only one where Marika "fades" away or dies compared to the others
Awesome video, love you analysis and theory. I never played Dark Souls or Bloodborne, so the psychological angle really puts things together. Also, tying in real world mythology is SO GRRM.
I haven't finished the video, but I wamma put this out there, that supposedly Miyazaki said that there is still a mystery that no one has discovered. Im assuming that he's refering to something in the "base game" that is yet to be uncovered. Honestly, I can't figute out what he meant by this.
I disagree that she’s impaled through her womb. It isn’t low enough, anatomically speaking. To me, it looks like it’s piercing her through her middle torso/center, and far more likely to be a reference, visually, to the piercing of Christ through his side.
@@briannenurse4640That requires two stretches rather than just picking the obvious Christlike symbolism. She's literally crucified as well as pierced by a spear.
J got pierced through the liver wich would have to be indicated by piercing her right side.. but it seems to be more in her center wich makes the conclusion its her womb more viable imo
Waitwaitwait! I love this, and things just clicked in my brain What if Melina was stillbron, or didn't survive birth? That's why she only exists in spirit, but not in body. Her body passed before birth, but her spirit lives on
This analysis is a good example of why psychology is useful and what Jung is useful for, but also shows how guiding our viewing of the world by psychology’s teachings without accounting for sociology is limiting and poisonous
I have a question. Did Marika have a role in Radagon meeting and leaving Rennala? Or was that Radagon doing this on his own? In other words, was Marika also Radagon at that point?
It's very hard to know for sure. There are several contradictory things going on with Radagon and Rennala. In psychology, if a woman rejects/ represses her Animus (the elden lords), they will marry the enemy. On the other hand, I take Rennala and Radagon's story to directly mirror Marika's story. Since Marika is never seen, I think the story of Rennala is actually the story of Marika. A queen who once held a ton of power, tragedy strikes, and she get's imprisoned in her form place of power; Marika and the Erdtree with Radagon's seal holding her there. Rennala and the academy with Radagon's seal holding her there. It could also be as simple as Marika using Radagon to end the Liurian Wars.
I think you are partially right. Marika is not just some person dreaming, but a real god, albeit, not the ultimate God of this universe. She is NOT omnipresent and omnipotent, and has limited influence outside of the Lands Between. Lands Between is a special land, something like Eden, or Olympos and when someone ascends to godhood, they become tied to this land in a metaphysical sense and can enforce their order on it. They have their limitations, and this is why they need a Lord to enforce their will on the more mundane things, as they can only determine things in broad strokes. (more or less) And this is where what you are saying comes in: This land's god divests themselves of their flesh, and then the god's WHOLE psyche influences this land in myriad ways, but this still doesn't mean (in my opinion), that the whole story plays out just in the psyche of Marika. Remember, there were many cultures and a long history exists here that doesn't have anything to do with Marika. A long history with other divine beings, gods etc. (Whose will was determining the order of the Lands Between, but not the whole universe - however the Ranni ending is changing this possibly?)
Thanks for the comment! I actually believe that Marika has been around for a very long time. I believe she is the woman portrayed in giant female statue in the Rauh ruins. If she is present there and they are worshiping her, who knows how long she’s been around and having influence in said culture
Soo... Frenzied Flame is the meltdown of the inner conflict?... The gloam eyed queen the supposed end to the converging flame to get... "Tabula Rasa"? A New Beginning... May Chaos take the World! MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD!!!!!
The way I take the FF ending is that the thing being burned down is the ego-consciousness and the only thing remaining is the shadowy unconscious - which is why the GEQ makes an appearance, it's her world now. In real life this would be akin to a psychotic break where someone completely loses themselves and no longer relates to the real world. A kind of schizophrenia or sever mental break.
@@CenteredTarnished I experienced psychosis mildly and it opened me up to a new world kind of like Miquella divesting himself of everything to become something new a hard trial that will be beneficial if thy desires to see the end. but without balance there is no succussion going within is much better than reaching out (idk how im gonnna make this make sense but theres something important there about using negative harness it into a positive)
👍🫡💜 Remarkable. You do good, cohesive work. I’m kinda new to Jung, & his body of work is formidable, but you are helping me understand it better through your application of its principles in … a video game. 😂 Please don’t get me wrong: that is entirely a compliment (although perhaps a left-handed one 🤨? sorry, not intentional at all). This is the way to make somewhat esoteric concepts more mainstream-accessible. Elden Ring may be described as a video game, but it is also a piece of audiovisual literature, a clever treatise on mythologies both personal & universal, a study in the psychology of archetypes. Your explanation through the lens of Jungian thought is very helpful - as applies to both the game … & the *_rest_* of existence! 😉💯
Also, from now on anytime im going to hear someone claim Messmer is a child of Radagon, it's going to itch 😂. Id also like to hear your thoughts on the Radagon-Rennala relationship in the future if possible.
Definitely possible! One of the major developmental stages in childhood is separating oneself from their parents. Marika defeating/ confining the GEQ could be this idea brought to life. Hopefully we will find out more in the DLC.
There are comments saying Ranni doesn’t represent suicide, but to a depressed person, it seems like fate is unbearable suffering eternally, deserved or not. To take control of fate, is to end the suffering, or vice versa, to end the suffering is to take control of fate. The dark moon? The dark fate?
So I like this theory and it fits well. My only thing is that it cheapens the story, if going with this theory, that this story of the lands between isn't "real". I feel like you can have this theory without Marika having the whole elden ring universe being just an internal struggle within her psyche. Rather I think the world can be manipulated by her psyche because she is a God. Your theory can still hold water as central themes. It's really hard to explain because of the philosophical nature of the subject but hopefully someone understands my point.
Really nice take on the lore. Though it goes really unhinged at things like Ranni comitting suicide out of depression and the map being shaped like a fetus when it's really just a curled finger.
I think of Ranni as the part of Marika that already embraced the shadow and experienced ego death getting there. Miquella is being slow on the uptake in comparison. Here's a take on visualizing the map as a body: chakras. Centred Tarnished has previously pointed out that Leyndell is in the shape of a brain scan=Crown chakra, Rykard's face appears on the throat of a giant snake = throat Chakra, the Liurnia Lake appears as an anatomical heart = heart Chakra, Limgrave and Weeping Peninsula combined are in the shape of an armless/legless/headless torso (Roderika's description of the parts taken from the chrysalids) with Agheel Lake appearing as a stomach = Solar Plexus Chakra (in Japanese it is the stomach Chakra or "the place where water falls"). The other 3 chakras follow around the circle of divine towers accordingly, where Morgott and Mohg's great runes represent crown and 3rd eye, respectively. 7 chakras for 7 Great Runes. The unfurling finger idea is fine too. There can be multiple concepts at work.
I think if it's a curled finger (which is totally fine), it would be a huge disconnect between the story being told and the map. Again, unless fingers have a head, nose, and an umbilical cord, I just don't see it being that superficial. Again, just my take.
BTW my original theory on messmer is very similar to yours, but.... different. i feel like he is being used by marika. they are aware of eachother, and i believe your view of him soaking up all he see's around him and being the full culmination of it.... while living in the world of all things that are the antithesis of things accepted in the lands between.. he is exactly what he is. But i believe marika... while first setting foot there.... the place she became a God.... done some straight up evil shit in the war that was waged that seen her rise to Godhood. things she would most certainly want forgotten. there is the cloak called marika's mischief, and the black assassin cloaks etc. that all hint to marika's vieling of this land. to hide it away... so that is forgotten...BUT she knows that from this very land she herself first set foot, and made her rise to Godhood...so since she has hidden this land from everyone... even herself in hopes of forgetting her past vile actions to further push forward this benevolent, life unending loving mother image she wants to badly to portray... she knows about messmer being there... and she is fine with him being her willing heretical tyrant lord there to destroy ANYONE who might think themselves fit to become some fledging upstart God/new era ruler from there... just as she did. Especially while this land has been hidden, and forgotten where her Iron fist, ever vigilant, golden order eyes cannot be watching to crush any descent to her rule. I love the way you view the game. there are ALWAYS multiple, congruent, meanings/reasons for everything. I feel like your jungian approach IS the base Layer, but I believe what I have just laid out is the 2nd derived layer. the George rr Martin political intrigue layer you might say.
Again i think you mistake the crucible or the one great for something. I do believe if the crucible is pre differentiation, then it cannot be a differentiated shadow.
The Dumb n' Dumber reference was nice. Could Messmer have possibly been Marika's first pregnancy, perhaps conceived under sinful / embarrasing circumstance that resulted in her aborting Messmer? She was young and told to abort the baby to avoid shame? < would line up with the persona aspect, she was forced to do something at a young age to appease the expectations of those around her... Perhaps the old man in the DLC painting took advantage of her... Him pulling something resembling an almost mocking / bastardisation of the Erdtree roots out of himself would be kind of poetic. Meaning, this old man set in motion a shame for Marika - therefore forcefully unlocking the ego. Forcing something resembling her ego inside of this old man who may have impregnated her would be a poetic form of punishment. I think the old guy either way plays a huge role, I do think he is a huge source of hate.
To add. The unwanted children in the walking mausoleums are maybe connected to her ego to the trauma of aborting Messmer. She gives these children a chance to make something of themselves, the chance that Messmer never got. She may always be wondering what her son could have been if he'd have only been given the chance. To her, her children not making the most of the opportunity of life touches a raw nerve and it's her in some way actually making up for an aspect of her shadow. It's like aspects of her shadow poke through into the lands between and vice versa. Your videos have got me thinking, I love your theories and research!
I agree with these being the representations of what is happening in the game but I feel like it doesn’t explain the actual lore itself, such as radahn needing to be killed. Radahn is the force pushing back yeah, but that doesn’t tell us what specifically he needs to be killed for.
Before any sort of change can occur, whether on a personal or societal level, the resistance to that change must be dealt with. There have been countless wars that are founded on this change vs resistance premise. One side desperately trying to move past the old and the other clutching to "traditions" no matter how ugly they may be. On a personal level, before one can move through the process of healing or changing behaviors, the resistance to that change must be "defeated". Since Radahn = Resistance to change, he must be dealt with before the process can progress. It's actually a very common theme in literature or cinema. Marika is clearly there to heal this part of herself or society, but before she can progress in this process, the resistance to change inside herself must be dealt with. That is Radahn.
@@CenteredTarnished I get that but I feel like there isn’t enough proof that the game is literally in marika’s head to say something like taht. Maybe thematically, it would make sense, but radahn literally serves no threat in terms of actual activity in the lands between so it doesn’t make sense for her specifically to need him dead. What you say is interesting but it doesn’t provide the actual lore reason, just a framework for it. Maybe radahn is the resistance and he’s holding back her, miquella, and ranni’s fates because he wants to resist, idk. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Even if this was within marika’s psyche, there’s still actual elements to the characters like you said, and I understand you’re not trying to cheapen the characters, but the way you said it Just makes it sound like you’re saying there’s no actual reason or motive for the people themselves “living in marika’s mind” and it is simply related to the healing of the mind.
@@godly_potatoe69xd19 I guess to me that is a very good lore reason for Radahn having to be defeated in order to go to the DLC. I think you are looking for more like his background lore than the lore I am presenting.... maybe? I guess I'm not really sure what you are looking for. I think there are tons of reasons and motives for everything in Elden Ring. I mean Radahn really doesn't have that much lore to go on; a little bit of back story through a single cutscene and some item descriptions but they all have a singular theme - resistance to change. Again, just in my opinion.
@@CenteredTarnished idk, it just seems to me that that’s too loose of a reason for him to need to die for the dlc, it’s the equivalent of saying mohg needs to die for the dlc because of whatever aspect is associated with him is the reason, even though there still needs to be a physically plausible reason for him needing to die, which is him kidnapping miquella. The whole psyche thing is more of a background part of the lore to me and is more of a basis for it than something that actually exists in game. So to me it just doesn’t make sense that we would be unable to enter the shadow lands just because it has to do with marika’s psyche. There’s much more lore to support the idea that it’s because miquella needs him dead, seeing as he sent Melenia to kill him and ranni also needed him dead for her fate, as well as miquella was trying to bring about the eclipse, which would need the sun in order for it to happen and the sun is a star. I don’t even fully believe that’s what happened but I just don’t see enough in game lore backing besides the theming undertones for it to be something specifically about marika’s mind. Idk though, I’m excited to see what it is in 4 months
Idk, it seems way too easy to fit jung into a lot of works of literature and storytelling. It seems to me like maybe you are too invested in this one lynchpin in your theories. Jung is on the mind, so you see it everywhere, and again, it is not overly difficult to apply jungian concepts to many stories, especially if they are not outright spelled out.
I agree that Jung concepts are widely universal…. …However, particularly in Japanese media (Persona, Berserk, Dark Souls), there seems to be a much deeper understanding in dealing with these psychological concepts DIRECTLY. These Jungian concepts are confronted, and made manifest in material form. In my opinion, Miyazaki and Miura are some of the best examples of this in recent times. They understand these concepts better than most, because these concepts play an integral role in how the protagonist interacts with its respective world, more than most Western authors taking influence from Jung. Psychology is a core theme and character and plot device, rather than an aspect of a story Elden Ring, in particular, seems to be completely FILLED with these concepts (Shadows; multiple-personalities who are made manifest; the Bonfire theory; nighttime relating to the fear of unknown creatures etc, and more) (P.S - I personally disagree with the ‘Marika/LandsBetween are linked’ concepts, but everything else seems to be apt imo) TL;DR - Japanese and Anime are hella influenced by Jung lol
I feel like I have a halfway between sort of interpretation. I definitely wouldn't put it past Miyazaki to have taken all this stuff into consideration in building the lore. I think the references are absolutely in the text. But I don't believe that the entire game takes place inside Marika's psyche. I think the Lands Between are a real place as well as a metaphysical one.
It's sobering to witness this lens being unfurled at length, magnifying the large amount of suspiciously common elements. For whatever reason, other games get to have layers of depth, but there seems to be a knack to contain ER (in particular) to this "and then the knight stole the cheese for revenge" narrative, where the story gets to be about nothing else. On the other hand, I'm happy that the historians and psychologists can coexist as such, since I believe they undoubtedly complement each other. Or, at the very least, it's good that the historians can't just push the other side (so to speak) to the ditch in hopes of factual supremacy. Perhaps that was never the case, and this is quite natural and healthy a rivalry that ultimately spurs and engages people to approach and reapproach these worlds. And when was that not the point? I was particularly surprised with the deathroot observation as eyes from the recesses of the shaken self, peering in and invading the would be stronghold of the individual, its world. By association, I also liked the thoughts on Messmer. They certainly add an extra layer of expectation. Exciting!
Rennala isn't consumed by the loss of her child. You only said that to fit the theme you were reaching for, but it's just plain wrong. Rennala is overcome by the loss of Radagon which broke her heart, and Radagon broke her mind by giving her a great rune in the form of an Amber Egg.
I can't tell if you're trolling...... How do you explain the constant birthing of the scholars in her boss room? How do you explain the cradles? How do you explain the amber egg perfecting births? I agree Radagon broke her heart but that has nothing to do with any of the child related themes.
All of this makes so much sense... But I still want to fk up Miquella at the end of it lol He can't be some benevolent figure he has to show his true evil self. I'll be in shambles if not.
Even if I don't agree that the game literally takes place in Marika's psyche I think you have some of the best artistic analysis for this game. Art is all about symbolism and what it is trying to tell us about the real world, and no matter what, I think your videos are invaluable to understanding the message of Elden Ring.
Thanks for another great video!
hello Mr. isamimic!!!!
The goat recognising goat 🐐
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@@Hanklerfishiesbro is everywhere looking for lore lmao
Very good video and very convincing thematic ties. I especially like the ideas of how the DLC connects. I just have one major problem with this line of thinking. To take the thematic tales around Marika so far as to say the game world itself is inside her psyche, to me makes it seem like all the storytelling of the game world is irrelevant and not rooted in an actual world history of the lands between. I don’t think that’s something GRRM had in mind when writing the history as that history would be nothing more than a thematic image. It also makes you question all the non-demigod stories in the game and how those relate to Marika’s psyche. Are they simply residents of her imagination? And we also have places, like the Roundtable hold, that are actively tied to a mind-scape of Marika or sub dimension. Those seem to throw a wrench into this idea just in my opinion. That being said, there is absolutely truth to these observations, I’m just not sure if it would be 100% all encompassing of the lands between as a whole
I think we give too much credit to the characters and their ability to impact the world of lands between. The outer gods are OUTER GODS like in Berserk “Man has no control, even over his own will” *cough cough* Marika
This is a story about Marika vs. Golden Order with MARIKA being on the side of crucible, hence why Godwyn makes peace with dragons Omen are cast out and not killed entirely, and why I believe it is the Goldden Order speaking through Marika when we are told to have no mercy for demigods why?? Cause Demi gods are all followers of outer gods of the crucible
Also the crucible is simply the land or the “soup” aka great tree which grew from this soup as we became intelligent and started burying the dead
This tree grew so big that death was the fear of the land or “god” or fear of god…. Get it? making Golden Order Say hold up I STARTED THIS SHIT THIS IS MY LAND. MARIKA shattered the ring to save her family of the crucible this is why she shattered the ring fighting against the golden order OF the greater will (the kingdom of outer gods over the lands between) again MARIKA IS FIGHTING HERSELF ALONG WITH THE HELP OF RADAGON TO SHATTER THE RING
SO THAT THEY BECOME ONE WITH THE RING
THE FINAL BOSS IS THE GOLDEN ORDER I REPEAT THE GOLDEN ORDER NOT NECESSARILY Marika or Radagon
i don't think this symbolic outlining is supposed to contradict the factual plot of the gameworld anyway
This isn't an either/or scenario thankfully. He's not doing a straightforward lore analysis so much. It's somewhere closer to a literary analysis. In that light, it's pretty damn good.
Didnt centered tarnished even kind of adress this idea in the first 3 minutes?
Now the DLC has been released, 30:45 his take on miqella is spot on hot dayum
I feel like Ranni's ending is more about letting go of the need to control than it is about giving up or giving in.
Phenomenal video. It's the birds eye approach that ER lore needs. You're right it's the tree trunk that ties all the lore branches together. Looking forward to what comes next.
I like that description, "birds eye approach". If that ain't the truth.
Well, you've completely opened my eyes to viewing this game through a new lense. The bigger meaning you present makes way too much sense through the scope of Jung's work. Two years later and this game continues to feel fresh. Even more so now after watching this. Excellent work man, i can't congratulate you enough. Not sure if it's been done yet, but I'm going to share your work any chance i get to fellow lore hunters.
This is it.
Since the first minutes in this game I've always had in the back of my mind the feeling that Jungian Psychology would have been the keystone to untangle the central theme of this world, but I didn't dispose of the proper tools to unravel all the symbolism that the game throws at you, leaving me overwhelmed by the task.
Now the puzzle fits together: as Myazaki himself stated ( and as the game itself portraits it) the Elden Ring is the metaphysical embodiement of the 'world rules' Marika chose (or preferably, were imposed to her) for her kingdom.
The rejection of the shadow ( the Rune of Death) that is not accepted but instead delegated to Maliketh and caged away, subsequentially bleaking in with the death of his ego, Godwyn... this is so good man.
Personally I think the game's world is not the literal 'Marika's Psyche' but rather the reflection of it, molded by her own actions (she's a God and ruler of the world after all, no need to delve into someone psyche when that individual has the power to shape the world at her own will).
I think you've nailed and I'm grateful for the amazing job you have done.
Your channel is true gold, unalloyed gold.
Thanks for the king words! Agreed on Marika's psyche vs a reflection of it - the only thing that may shake that is the Elden Ring/ Great Runes. They seem to be highly charged emotional states that "infect" their bearers and act as the "rules" of Marika's inner world ...... and come from inside Marika lol. That being said, I think it's however fits best in your mind that ultimately counts!
@@CenteredTarnished Absolutely!
As the old finger reader in the hub says, the shard bearers are all 'children of Marika', so maybe the 'inner infection' post Rune beared can be justified by the crambling of their mother/father (Marika/Radagon) inner state, reflected upon their children
you are BY FAR the most underrated loretuber.... you and Tarnished Archeologist are the two best... BY FAR... vaati... smough.... those guys have their place as the surface level lore fountains.... but... for those of us who realize there is WAYYYY more being told through even just the archway relief symbology, and that literally every single thing is there for a reason, purpose, and has a deeper symbological meaning... there is not anyone else out there making stuff like this.
Thank you! Glad you like it
if he is like TA then i have to subscribe..
Its his first video that TH-cam suggested to me..
TA is crazy genius!
love it all. I always liked the "literalized metaphor" aspect of these games, and looking at it as a materialized psychological framework makes so much sense! please never quit
Wow. I am really impressed with this analysis. This is the first time I’ve heard of mericka being analyzed in this way and it actually takes the story and turns it into something very sad and beautifully tragic. Looking forward to more of your content
People with other theories out there might be experiencing some defence mechanisms, finding it difficult admitting they were wrong. As if that equalled failure.
Really like your work! I for one feel that you applying jungs work to this game is the only theory that holds up in most regards for me. No other can fullt tie the knot.
Thank you
Thank you for the kind words
I feel Centered Tarnished comes the closest to a unified theory of Elden Ring lore. The one area I'd push back is on Ranni's ending.
I don't agree Ranni's ending is nihilistic or alludes to a life-ending action. This ending possibly exists, but in the flame of frenzy ending.
Instead, I see Ranni's ending as one where we help Marika end the ridged self-denying ego she constructed in the form of Golden order fundamentalism. Through Ranni as a representation of her lost child, she learns to embrace the memory of her pain and go on a journey of self-discovery and healing. The corrected Japanese translation of Ranni's lines both in the ending cut scene and when see talk to her doll in Ranni's Rise support this view.
I've never heard the corrected Japanese translations before! I'd be curious to read them. Thanks for the kind words!
@@CenteredTarnished I don't think I can post links here but the article "Elden Ring: Ranni’s Age of Stars ending mistranslations explained" by the website Frontline Gaming Japan explains the dialogue mistranslations fairly well.
Great video and a very compelling theory. I especially like the part about the divine towers. Subbed!
Bro you need a bigger following. Such rich and intriguing takes that make tons of sense. Awesome video
Absolutely insane video and I can't believe how well it all lines up. I seriously thought I had somewhat of an understanding of what was happening throughout the game, and never could have conceived of something like this.
One minor thing though that I noticed, at 56:41 you briefly mention there being room for another throne. When looking at all the thrones at once (the white text is covering up the other 3 in the video), it looks like Miquella and Malenia's are just closer together than any of the others, probably just showing how close they were. I don't really think a fourth one was ever supposed to fit in the left side
Thank you! Interesting on the thrones that I never noticed! Thanks
I like how the veil behind the tree, make it looks like a skull with blazing eyes
The actual shot of the Shadow of the Erdtree from the trailer looks absolutely incredible! The dark veil surrounding the tree with the stunning look of the sky in the background looks so cool! I really like the theme of the expansion being a shadow realm type thing because everything looks more dark & twisted even compared to the base game…..and I love what I’m seeing!
The entire game is a masterpiece encompassing the two biggest mysteries: the human brain, and the universe.
You’ve unlocked one part, and there are other channels that are piecing together other parts. It’s all playing out exactly how this madman known as Miyazaki intended…
Thanks for putting these videos together, your lens is very useful for understanding so much of the hidden meaning in this wonderful universe of ER.
Cheers!
No matter how much of this is true for the game, there’s still a lot to learn from this video for my own mind and for others minds. Thanks man.
This is the exact kind of perspective shift I was looking for. Very excited to dive into more of your videos. I would love to hear more about your perspective on the piece of the Elden Ring that Marika retains, Radagon's role in its retention (through his repairing), and Radagon's shared identity with Marika.
To push back on your perspective -- Miyazaki & GRRM tend to write more about society, history, and time. I find the story taking place in Marika's psyche limits some themes present within the game. Particularly, themes surrounding imperialism, how conquering cultures incorporates and discards aspects of other cultures.
I'm definitely factoring your narrative into my understanding of the lore & story -- yet, I think your narrative aligns more closely with an analysis of Marika, the metaphysics of a god/ the elden ring, and the golden order -- rather than the whole world.
Positively brilliant, as you seem to always achieve with each of your uploads. A very unique perspective.
Whilst I think Marika’s psyche is definitely largely at play in a world she has/had so much power over, I struggle to accept that the game truly does take place in her psyche entirely.
But I marvel at your theories and your stunning capability for tethering down details into something that is quite captivating and thoroughly thought provoking.
Wandering through wonderment. It brings me great joy to have the opportunity to experience your view points in such an entertaining and informative fashion. Thank you!
Thank you! Just out of curiosity (because this reaction is common - about not accepting it's taking place in Marika's psyche), what do you think about the Shadow Lands being draped in her bedchamber veils? How do you see this or explain it? Honestly not trying to argue or convince you of anything - just genuinely curious.
@@CenteredTarnished I don’t think it is. Marika is a god with illusory powers. A GOD. So we don’t know yet what that fully entails. But I certainly don’t think we become miniature along with everyone else in her bed chambers.
I believe the veil cast over the shadow lands is massive. A Baldachin draped across the sky in such a way that only a goddess can do. In my mind it continues on with her Christian Mythos iconography. The story of her hiding away a baby that should not be. Perhaps her first child with Radagan during the reign of Godfrey.
It reminds me of Mary Magdalene. It reminds me of Melusine with her transformation secret who was a dragon queen that danced her ring eternal. Both of these women fled across a sea with their babies. I think Marika did something similar. With the veil being cast literally into the shadow of the erdtree.
“You must go, must flee. For they will hunt you down. You and your unborn seed. In all of Gaul is there safety?
Les Saint Marie de La Mer, you will dance the ring. Marys of the sea, the lost bride weeps…” -Tori Amos - Marys of the sea. A song she wrote also about Mary Magdalene and Melusine. Strangely Marika's actions and even a bit of her story and iconography harken back to these tales for me. Even if they're just meant to hint at something else, this is where my mind has wandered.
I am almost certain I am wrong. But I am one hundred percent certain I am supposed to be thinking what I am thinking. I am supposed to find the stories in the details. So too are you. You're supposed to be finding all of the reasons why this is all happening in her psyche.
Because I fully believe it could be doing all of these things at once or that we are being led to entertain those ideas. But only the most brilliant among us and most skilled in likening their theories to this story craft are going to be able to communicate it the way that you have.
So I dont think either of us are "wrong" per se. But i do think we are probably missing pieces of the story that we havent even been fully exposed to yet lol and that we are meant to speculate the way that we are.
"I know it in my bones. A tarnished cannot unravel the entire story. Miyazaki has high hopes for us, that we will live and die and continue the cycle, becoming stronger and stronger into eternity." lol
Very well put and I actually quite like your take. Thanks for sharing!
@@CenteredTarnished Thank you! I quite like yours as well and have for a good while now. I do think Jung is applicable for a reason. =-) I also edited my take heavily at about the same time you responded lol so hopefully that jibber jabber makes some semblance of sense =-D
This line of thinking really helps construct a better understanding of what this game and its world actually are. I was having difficulty with the concept of the elden ring representing aspects of reality in a physical reality and what it meant that it was then broken. When the frame is shifted from an outer physical universe to an inner metaphysical universe, the shattering and its effects make much more sense. Thank you for your exploring past the 'what is it' and delving into the 'what does it mean.'
This analysis is beyond imagination, man! It makes so much sense and, even if i dont take literally some ideas, the refreshing view that you are giving to Elden Ring's world is just unforgettable. I appreciate it so much that you're not giving just the information we all already know, you go beyond that...
Amazing work!
By the way, what is the soundtrack you're using? It's incredibly beautiful!!
Thanks! The sound track is Kyle Preston - Lost Reality
I like the idea that the lands between is Merika’s psyche made physical, passing the elden ring to another is allowing them to form the world in the same way. I also like that the tarnished are healing Merika’s soul to allow her to pass on almost like she has been resisting death and stagnated.
But I’ll disagree about Ranni’s ending. It’s about letting go of faith and fate and allowing logic to take hold of the future.
I will add to this and say that Marika is wanting us, the Tarnished, to end her suffering. it is Radagon who is grasping at the last shreds of the Golden Order that he finds so precious, while Marika is over the whole thing but cannot even leave the Erdtree because she is a vessel for the Ring and Radagon adds his thorns
I do think the smouldering butterflies are Melina's butterflies. I fully agree with you. I do not think Messmer has butterflies. I think those pink butterflies are St. Trina's butterflies. They do make an appearance in the Haligtree, but we simply cannot collect them. But they are easily observable inside the tree, in the area where you find the rotted ulcerated tree spirit and all of Millicent's sisters. Pink butterflies and soft, pale lilies everywhere. Not to mention in the room where we fight Melania. That room itself is full of fully blossoming, not whithering St. Trina's lilies. We also find her slumbering.
I think Messmer was mocking both Marika AND us, the tarnished, when he speaks those awesome words in the trailer. I think so much of what you think aligns with what I think. But there is some meaningful divergence in how we see the over arching prevalence of Marika's psyche. Where you think we are existing within it, and I think she is expressing it outside of her. But I agree with you that Messmer was born in the shadow realms. When Marika whisked him away in an effort to hide him.
But I also think Marika is a more sympathetic character than you do, I think. I think some of the things she did aren't given enough reason and so then to us she just looks like an arsehole. But I don't think that's the case. For example when she is telling her demigod children that they must make something of themselves or she is going to sacrifice them. I don't think that is what she was saying at all nor do i think they appropriately captures her tone. She tells them, they can make anything they want to make of themselves. Be it a Lord, be it a god. But if they do not make something of themselves, she fears, they will be sacrificed by... something/someone else. Whether that is Radagon the usurper or the "Greater Will", I cannot say obviously but I am speculating about that.
I think Master Hewg is a very telling character. He prays to her lovingly, pleadingly. He does not seem lashed to his duty to Marika outside of a passion within himself. It seems like the only thing he does actually allow himself to care about, until Roderika comes along and she reminds him of someone else he once met...
I think when Master Hewg says "Oh the terror of her..." I don't think he was talking about how terrifying Marika is. I think he was talking about how terrified Marika was, herself.
Anyway, thank you for being one of my favourite lore content creators. So much of what you are saying is so enlightening and so valuable and so unique to this community but also very, very revealing in ways no one else's theories are. Because as stated before, I believe Marika's psyche is obviously very relevant here. But I think the distinction between our views is that I believe Marika's psyche is manifesting outside of herself. Where as you believe we are operating within it.
Anyway, thank you again. Sorry I am blowing up your comment section. =-)
Haha no reason to apologies to me! I totally agree that Marika is just a lady going through some shit and not an evil, harsh character that the mainstream seems to be fixed on. I mean GRRM and Miyazaki both rarely make good or bad character's...... just very human one's with tones of grey.
Wondering what you hesitance is on Marika's psyche vs a reflection of it tho. This is again a common comment so wanted to get your take on why you feel this way. And how you tie that to the Elden Ring/ Great Runes that come from Marika herself. Thanks!
@@CenteredTarnished I think the reason why we are not operating within her psyche is because then what are we, the legion of tarnished that the main story seems to acknowledge not only are returning en masse but are also interacting with each other. Are we also Marika relearning her entire story? But why are we blind to so much of it?
I honestly think it doesn’t make sense that so many other beings are breaching her psyche.
But something about the lands between reminds me so much of the neverending story. Something about this world DOES feel as though it is almost breaking the third wall. Like are is us accessing the lands between via playing Elden ring and engaging with the “cycle,” is this literally part of the story?
Are we playing into Miquella and Marika’s hands the moment we purchase the game and create a character and log in?
It’s something I think about sometimes. In that way it does seem possible that the ring eternal is simply the game. But I still just don’t think so.
Instead, I think Marika is manifesting and projecting her psyche into the lands between. There are far too many characters with far too much rich history and lore for this to all be metaphorical references to a single individual’s psyche. Each character with their own story and long lineage. Each relic, each ruin, each strange geological formation, every piece of this land is queer enough to be a fully psychological place. But that seems too singularly faceted in my opinion.
There are too many references to too many mythos and histories and stories ranging from Irish mythology to Greek mythology, references to all manner of real world history, as I have said before, Mary Magdalene and Melusine. Boudicca as well. In fact, Marika’s very name is a literal mix of Mary and Boudicca.
Perhaps my heart simply wants this to be more than just us entering into one traumatised woman’s head. But still I do not think so. I would certainly like to know for sure, though.
I’m sorry I can’t give you an answer that dissuades you from your line of thinking. But to be honest, I don’t want to dissuade you. I love the content you create and I think you’re right about it all. I just think the lands between and the shadow realm are both lands outside of Marika and all of the beings with all of their stories and all of their interactions and all of their agendas etc… are all independent of her.
Nice! I am in no way married to the idea that it is all taking place in her psyche, just the way I interpret it. To be honest, I don't think there is much of a difference in thinking it's actually in her head or a projection of it. I mean, reality is all about how we, individually, perceive things.
The very end of this video is my very favourite part. What a gift, good sir. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Nice work, Tarnished!
I had very similar interpretations for Elden Ring, and the meaning of *SHADOW*
You're a great storyteller! I honestly don't think that any of this is what the creators intended but if anything that makes it even more impressive you were able to justify it so well.
Its crazy that such psychological elements could be hidden beneath a natural world thats the land between.
Although you are correct in that this theory need some exploration to account for all the side elements of the world.
For sure! I will address those other elements in future videos.
If you’re amazed by it in Elden ring, wait till the realise real life is the same…
I loved this analysis, really great work!
We don't really have a timeline to know when or how Radagon came to exist. He could've always been a part of Marika and that would put Messmer's birth at any point in time (If he comes from them). I think losing Messmer is what probably made her remove death from the order eternally, and then when even after removing death itself, Godwyn died anyways, she lost it. Hence why she just shattered the Ring. Its order was useless.
I agree with you that she shattered the ER because the "order" was useless and flawed. However, I think we have enough evidence (in my opinion) that Marika created this Order during her childhood. Meaning that the confining of DD would have been brought about from a death of a parent, sibling, childhood friend or some other major relationship in that part of her life. Again, just my speculation.
@@CenteredTarnished It's fair! I like coming up with new theories because it helps me cope with my undying thirst of knowing what's actually in the dlc. I really liked your channel and your way of explaining things so i'm looking forward for your new vids!
Amazing. Simply Amazing. You earned a sub.
Awesome, thank you!
most based video i have seen
Amazing video,this channel truly is underrated.
I consider Mesmer to be one of the dead demigods which were killed during the night of the black knives.Why?Theres clues suggesting he existed at one point in the lands between.In Morgotts cutscene amongst the many royal chairs dedicated to the demigods we see a conspicuous gap between Godricks seat and Malenias seat.Theres also reason to think the actual erdtree rn has been burned before and the thing we see is somesort of projection of what once was,we see plenty of ash in Leyndell even when we arrive (we know Messmer uses his own brand of fire which looks like something between the giants flame and the briars of punishment).The red snake themselves appear on the depraved perfumers set,meaning the snake was not always seen as the symbol of blasphemy.
dude you blew my mind
this is a world crafted with such fine detail that this perspective makes sense
Messer totally looks like a godskin too. Been trying to find how he relates to the Gloam eyed queen. Amazing work.
ive always thought the omen twins are actually looked upon more favorably by Marika than it seems. Mohg guards an erdtree favor talisman in the sewers, and morgott seems to have a pretty big responsibility as well
Amazing analysis. Do you see a similarity with The Lands between with purgatory?
Kind of.... but it might be more apt to say the Shadow Lands would represent purgatory. I take the lands between to be be the place between the ego-conscious and shadowy/ chaotic unconscious. If you look at the tree in this, you can see what I am talking about. 2 circles at the trunk of the tree one white, one black, that are overlapping and the space between is grey..... a place between. www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FQuotesPorn%2Fcomments%2F24xf0v%2Fno_tree_it_is_said_can_grow_to_heaven_carl_jung%2F&psig=AOvVaw3L1rwO1O98wtZbhBL_W1T3&ust=1709682395139000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBMQjRxqFwoTCJjJpq_l24QDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAE
I have talked about it before but the fact that the Lands Between harbors misbegottens, omens, dragons, serpents, and more.... while at the same time harboring the golden order, erdtree, etc. It's like these 2 worlds are bleeding into each other. Another great visual is the ego-self axis shown here: carilynn27.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/ego-self-axis.jpg
The blended area is what I call the Lands Between. Ego= erdtree/ golden order/ all things golden. Self = Crucible/ shadow lands and we are wandering in this in between space.
Hope that helps!
@@CenteredTarnished Interesting, thanks for explanation!
I mean that's what being a real godlike figure is, the entire universe is your subconscious. A God's not just a dude waiting in a tree for you to show up with a Katana and slay him. I have no problem with the theory while still treating the ingame events as their occur. The PC kills everyone then lives happily ever after with his blue GF.
Would've been funny if the final shot showed a blonde woman sitting in a mental asylum with no context, would've given the lorediggers something to chew on.
There's this other channel explaining all of Bloodborne through the motive of victorian era medicine and surgery. Sadly isn't too popular either. I don't think it takes away from what's in the game but adds another layer and it's crazy that the creators seemingly put it there and noone noticed before.
People tend to put so much weight on what's said and the "item descriptions". I think we should only take for granted what we see and experience in game. Everything else could be lies and unreliable narration. I don't think there's a Greater Will either because he never shows up just like Jhw.
I think you're closer to Miyazaki's veiled meaning of this game than many people who pick at only the face value elements of his lore. This goes beyond the veil and shows his true genius. The story of Elden Ring is not just the face value, it doesn't mean the face value layer isn't relevant or important.
Funny that you should bring up Queen Yharnam. I've a thought that Miquella went to the shadowlands to find the soul of a souless companion as a parallel to Orpheus travelling to the underworld to retreive the soul of Eurydice, an oak nymph who was bitten by a snake on her wedding day and died. Coincidental then that Queen Yharnam appears as a kind of undead wearing a wedding dress.
This is a tangent though as I do think that you're generally doing good investigation into the Jungian complexes and shadow.
Jack the mimic figured out here on TH-cam. The title shows merika is pooling up the souls from passing into the realm of death. The runes on the title tell the whole story
Huh?
@@CenteredTarnished You really just gotta watch his video
Man I would love to hear you on a podcast with Smoughtown and Ratatoskr, you guys all have some awesome ideas and it’d honestly be fun to listen too
Me too! I would love the opportunity to talk so those more recognized lore hunters and just go over everything. I think their incredible information of the lore and my psychological take could really help everything come together. Start a petition and get me on there haha!
Now the DLC has been released, 30:45 his take on miqella is spot on hot dayum
I believe you bro! I'm also curious to see why this dude even has as sword stuck from his eye to his spine!
Ah, I didn't know you had been working on this specific topic. I understand the situation now. Excellent work as always.
Haha, all good man.
Thank you YT-Algorithm for suggesting me this video and thank you Centered Tarnished for making it. As a recent Psy-graduate and huge CG Jung fan this was so satisfying to watch :D
Radagon stood out to me as an Animus-like figure before but interpreting the Gloam-Eyed Queen as the Individual Shadow and Miquella made my jaw drop.
Btw. In your theory Melina (Self) and the Gloam-Eyed Queen (Individual Shadow) are two separate entities. Do you have an idea why Melina then appears like the queen in the Frenzy-ending?
Thank you!
The way I interpret the FF ending is something akin to a complete mental break/ psychosis where the ego-consciousness is completely "burned away" and all that remains is the chaotic unconscious. I think the GEQ appears because it's all that is left..... only the shadow remains. Basically a complete reversal of the current world order.
@@CenteredTarnished This would make a lot of sense. Building on your theory, in my eyes the endings represent different ways to deal with trauma. Goldmask’s being suppression of the Unconscious and FF the total victory of the Unconscious.
Jung was convinced that Conscious and Unconscious had to be balanced and if either side became too dominant, this would lead to neuroses. But no ending of Elden Ring gives me the feeling of Balance and Miyazaki stated that the DLC won’t add any new ending.
I wonder if we are missing something when it comes to interpreting the endings. Many consider Ranni’s ending the “happy” one but it doesn’t seem this way to me. Marika ends up being destroyed and the Lands between left behind.
@@orpheus3477 I agree that it's strange the endings won't change but Miyazaki states there will be a finality to the DLC which will be apparent.
I think it's possible that the Lands Between are "vacant" and it doesn't really matter what happens there as it seems like Marika is no longer there. The GW and connection is gone, Marika is not even a person anymore and lies inanimate - I think her consciousness is now in the Shadow Lands for good. And the ending of the DLC will be the "true/final" ending of ER where balance is finally an option.
This would line up with the fact that the events in the Shadow Lands are on the same timeline as the Lands Between. As soon as she shatters the ER, her journey to the Shadow Lands began - abandoning her once place of Godhood in pursuit of wholeness.
@@CenteredTarnished I imagine that the DLC might give us an ending that changes the context of all the main game endings. Just as defeating the Orphan in Bloodborne changed how we perceived Gehrman’s imprisonment or defeating Gael in DS3 put this whole idea of a new world after the fire will have faded on the table.
Anyway, I am really looking forward to your future content! Your theory has re-ignited some ideas I had about some of the lore-roadblocks in ER. For example Rennala’s obsession with birthing children or Godefroy’s existence.
These aspects couldn’t be explained by traditional lore hunting for 2 years now but, I think, seen as archetypes they are pretty understandable.
37:26 though I'm still hesitant about the fetus resemblance, I can't deny that the bottom of the mountaintops has a section which looks incredibly similar to a nose and mouth
I've been studying jung for a couple a weeks now this video is great
Well this is certainly a take.
I agree with some of the thematic parallels you raise, but am also very doubtful on some others. For the most eyebrow-raising one, the shape of the world argument is very, *very* tenuous, and I think I'd even find your whole interpretation more convincing without it. I don't think the Land of Shadows will turn out to be purely metaphysical, I believe it's more likely it was part of the world at some point and got hidden away. In that sense if we imagine a land that includes it and that would have existed before any supposed "implied trauma", then I'm not certain how you'd factor that in your theory.
I agree this is a bit of a mundane point to raise in regard to your whole interpretation but ultimately it also raises the question of Messmer's origins, since I don't believe he was born there after the separation but before. This would remove this whole "child lost to miscarriage" characteristic and make him more of a "discarded" one. Messmer's relation to Marika will be a very interesting one to see since I don't get the feeling there's bad blood between the two. He seems to me more like he's happy to handle his mother's dirty laundry, but of course that's purely just a feeling at this point.
To me the DLC will be about laying bare all the things Marika had to do to bring about her Order but could not actually get rid of, which ultimately held her Order back and, notably, prevented her age of plenty to be long-lived. The things she did but would not condone in her preaching, the fly in the ointment, as some would say.
Then there's also smaller issues which you raise yourself regarding this take not being holistic. For example, the Iron Maidens and their visual appearance might fit your interpretation, but then again the text surrounding them and the environment storytelling around them on the other hand is *never* associated with Marika.
Then again your video is overall more of a thematic interpretation than anything, and in that sense it's entirely valid. Even if I think it's ultimately very rooted in psychoanalytical thinking which leaves me largely unconvinced.
I think I see the "metaphysical" shadow lands and the real-life, but veiled away shadow lands as one and the same. I mean, if there is a place literally called the "shadow" land hidden from the world and held within it are all the repressed aspects of Marika's order.......... it's the same thing - just however you want to interpret them i think.
I am always surprised when people don't see the map as a fetus...... it quite literally has an umbilical cord and a dead body at the top of that divine tower. The theme of infant birth and death is found everywhere in the game (regardless of if you think it's tied to Marika or not). Not to mention we are going to a shadow land where a missing child is...... and Marika is holding a baby in the background. IF there weren't all these other narrative devices telling us the same story and you take the map singularly, then I could see your point. Most of my theory is certainly speculation.... but I am nearly 100% sure on that one aspect. There are just too many arrows pointing directly to it. Miyazaki himself said the shadow lands aren't part of the lands between, so I don't see it adding to that map per se.
Because I believe we are operating inside Marika's psyche and the Demigods are complexes of her's, then everything is connected to Marika - including the Iron Maidens. Again, if they looked like Tanith or wore a different dress, and Marika wasn't holding Messmer in his boss room, and 100 other things, then I would never have connected them. Just like the map, if taken singularly, the connection is loose at best, but when compounded with all the other clues, it's hard not to make the connection.
The last thing I will say is; if you are waiting for Miyazaki to make a direct connection with any of his lore.......... we will be waiting for a very long time. He leaves the breadcrumbs, it's up to us to follow.
@@CenteredTarnished I definitely see the imagery and theming around birth, it absolutely is a central element and a big part of why the Lands Between are depicted as stagnant. To say the map is shaped as a fetus on the other hand is kind of something else.
If I'm going to read the Divine Tower of Liurnia as an umbilical cord, how should I read the other five ? And the rest of the appendices like the Caelid Colosseum ?
Regarding Miyazaki's quote, the IGN interview says that "it technically occupies the same space but has become physically disconnected". A translation of the Famitsu one goes as far as to say "It has been removed from and hidden from the outside world and this veil is a symbol of that.". Emphasis on it having become the way it is.
But it's a bit of a technicality, as it doesn't necessarily remove from the thematic interpretation you're making of it, mainly from the fetus shape idea.
Another awesome video! I am saving your vids to watch again after the DLC comes out to see how much is accurate, though I'm sure you'll make some videos when the time comes.
Also, what's the music playlist you use for the video?
Thanks! The intro is the Harpes song of Lament. The other is a loop of Kyle Preston - Lost Reality.
Very interesting everything you said makes sence I don’t know if this exactly what Miyazaki was thinking but it defenetly comes close. Great content.
It would be insane if it was Mesmer's arm coming out of the cocoon.
Have you ever read the item description for the memory of grace item? It seems to imply that our me is one. That is a cycle and never-ending, which would support the endgame mechanic of new game plus but also has interesting implications with lower and marika the eternal.
[SPOILER] You tying the concept of suicide to Ranni makes so much sense just due to how her ending goes. Her ending is the only one where Marika "fades" away or dies compared to the others
Awesome video, love you analysis and theory. I never played Dark Souls or Bloodborne, so the psychological angle really puts things together. Also, tying in real world mythology is SO GRRM.
This is fantastic.
I haven't finished the video, but I wamma put this out there, that supposedly Miyazaki said that there is still a mystery that no one has discovered. Im assuming that he's refering to something in the "base game" that is yet to be uncovered. Honestly, I can't figute out what he meant by this.
I think the 2 in the painting are Marika and the father of Messmer. Marika was in a relationship she didn't want to be in, and left Messmer behind.
I like that take! Only time will tell
I disagree that she’s impaled through her womb. It isn’t low enough, anatomically speaking. To me, it looks like it’s piercing her through her middle torso/center, and far more likely to be a reference, visually, to the piercing of Christ through his side.
It would depend on whether or not she was pregnant, I think. You're right that it's too high to hit the uterus if it's empty, but what if it wasn't?
Yes
@@briannenurse4640 Seems a bit convenient.
@@briannenurse4640That requires two stretches rather than just picking the obvious Christlike symbolism. She's literally crucified as well as pierced by a spear.
J got pierced through the liver wich would have to be indicated by piercing her right side.. but it seems to be more in her center wich makes the conclusion its her womb more viable imo
Waitwaitwait!
I love this, and things just clicked in my brain
What if Melina was stillbron, or didn't survive birth? That's why she only exists in spirit, but not in body. Her body passed before birth, but her spirit lives on
I heard someone mention about the butterfly that we go to grab that turn us into a tarnished I think Miquella is using us
Happy to be the first comment. Love the channel. 💖
This analysis is a good example of why psychology is useful and what Jung is useful for, but also shows how guiding our viewing of the world by psychology’s teachings without accounting for sociology is limiting and poisonous
Do you have a ER interpretation using sociology!? It would be awesome to hear!
Very worthwhile video.
Thank you
I have a question. Did Marika have a role in Radagon meeting and leaving Rennala? Or was that Radagon doing this on his own? In other words, was Marika also Radagon at that point?
It's very hard to know for sure. There are several contradictory things going on with Radagon and Rennala. In psychology, if a woman rejects/ represses her Animus (the elden lords), they will marry the enemy. On the other hand, I take Rennala and Radagon's story to directly mirror Marika's story. Since Marika is never seen, I think the story of Rennala is actually the story of Marika. A queen who once held a ton of power, tragedy strikes, and she get's imprisoned in her form place of power; Marika and the Erdtree with Radagon's seal holding her there. Rennala and the academy with Radagon's seal holding her there. It could also be as simple as Marika using Radagon to end the Liurian Wars.
Rune of the UNBORN .
Could it be Messmer's and his "afliction" ?
I think that is a possibility. Ranni's seems to be on the Moon, and Miquella's is different (we think) based off the trailer.
this is beautiful!
I think you are partially right. Marika is not just some person dreaming, but a real god, albeit, not the ultimate God of this universe. She is NOT omnipresent and omnipotent, and has limited influence outside of the Lands Between.
Lands Between is a special land, something like Eden, or Olympos and when someone ascends to godhood, they become tied to this land in a metaphysical sense and can enforce their order on it. They have their limitations, and this is why they need a Lord to enforce their will on the more mundane things, as they can only determine things in broad strokes. (more or less)
And this is where what you are saying comes in: This land's god divests themselves of their flesh, and then the god's WHOLE psyche influences this land in myriad ways, but this still doesn't mean (in my opinion), that the whole story plays out just in the psyche of Marika. Remember, there were many cultures and a long history exists here that doesn't have anything to do with Marika. A long history with other divine beings, gods etc. (Whose will was determining the order of the Lands Between, but not the whole universe - however the Ranni ending is changing this possibly?)
Thanks for the comment!
I actually believe that Marika has been around for a very long time. I believe she is the woman portrayed in giant female statue in the Rauh ruins. If she is present there and they are worshiping her, who knows how long she’s been around and having influence in said culture
Absolutely brilliant!
Thank you!
WOAW, i'm converted. Your power is no lower than Miquella's, maestro ✨
Soo... Frenzied Flame is the meltdown of the inner conflict?... The gloam eyed queen the supposed end to the converging flame to get... "Tabula Rasa"? A New Beginning...
May Chaos take the World!
MAY CHAOS TAKE THE WORLD!!!!!
The way I take the FF ending is that the thing being burned down is the ego-consciousness and the only thing remaining is the shadowy unconscious - which is why the GEQ makes an appearance, it's her world now. In real life this would be akin to a psychotic break where someone completely loses themselves and no longer relates to the real world. A kind of schizophrenia or sever mental break.
@@CenteredTarnished I experienced psychosis mildly and it opened me up to a new world kind of like Miquella divesting himself of everything to become something new a hard trial that will be beneficial if thy desires to see the end. but without balance there is no succussion going within is much better than reaching out (idk how im gonnna make this make sense but theres something important there about using negative harness it into a positive)
👍🫡💜 Remarkable. You do good, cohesive work. I’m kinda new to Jung, & his body of work is formidable, but you are helping me understand it better through your application of its principles in … a video game. 😂 Please don’t get me wrong: that is entirely a compliment (although perhaps a left-handed one 🤨? sorry, not intentional at all). This is the way to make somewhat esoteric concepts more mainstream-accessible. Elden Ring may be described as a video game, but it is also a piece of audiovisual literature, a clever treatise on mythologies both personal & universal, a study in the psychology of archetypes. Your explanation through the lens of Jungian thought is very helpful - as applies to both the game … & the *_rest_* of existence! 😉💯
Carl Jung?? If this dude references him I'm about to love this video
Also, from now on anytime im going to hear someone claim Messmer is a child of Radagon, it's going to itch 😂. Id also like to hear your thoughts on the Radagon-Rennala relationship in the future if possible.
You need to change your name to Tarnashed Hammer because you nailed it!
Maybe the miscarriage of Marika is a sucessfull one in the shadow realm (gloam eyed queen), with that the birth of Mesmer
I'm betting that portrait is of Marika's father and her mother, whom I suspect is the Gloam eyed Queen who is pregnant with Marika.
Definitely possible! One of the major developmental stages in childhood is separating oneself from their parents. Marika defeating/ confining the GEQ could be this idea brought to life. Hopefully we will find out more in the DLC.
BRO YOURE WOKE IRL AND ELDEN PING LORE HELL YES THIS BROTHER KNOWS ABUNDANT KNOWLEDGE 😭🙌
I thought the map was a finger, but I think you're right on the Jung stuff.
There are comments saying Ranni doesn’t represent suicide, but to a depressed person, it seems like fate is unbearable suffering eternally, deserved or not. To take control of fate, is to end the suffering, or vice versa, to end the suffering is to take control of fate. The dark moon? The dark fate?
So I like this theory and it fits well. My only thing is that it cheapens the story, if going with this theory, that this story of the lands between isn't "real". I feel like you can have this theory without Marika having the whole elden ring universe being just an internal struggle within her psyche. Rather I think the world can be manipulated by her psyche because she is a God. Your theory can still hold water as central themes. It's really hard to explain because of the philosophical nature of the subject but hopefully someone understands my point.
Really nice take on the lore. Though it goes really unhinged at things like Ranni comitting suicide out of depression and the map being shaped like a fetus when it's really just a curled finger.
I think of Ranni as the part of Marika that already embraced the shadow and experienced ego death getting there. Miquella is being slow on the uptake in comparison.
Here's a take on visualizing the map as a body: chakras. Centred Tarnished has previously pointed out that Leyndell is in the shape of a brain scan=Crown chakra, Rykard's face appears on the throat of a giant snake = throat Chakra, the Liurnia Lake appears as an anatomical heart = heart Chakra, Limgrave and Weeping Peninsula combined are in the shape of an armless/legless/headless torso (Roderika's description of the parts taken from the chrysalids) with Agheel Lake appearing as a stomach = Solar Plexus Chakra (in Japanese it is the stomach Chakra or "the place where water falls"). The other 3 chakras follow around the circle of divine towers accordingly, where Morgott and Mohg's great runes represent crown and 3rd eye, respectively. 7 chakras for 7 Great Runes.
The unfurling finger idea is fine too. There can be multiple concepts at work.
I think if it's a curled finger (which is totally fine), it would be a huge disconnect between the story being told and the map. Again, unless fingers have a head, nose, and an umbilical cord, I just don't see it being that superficial. Again, just my take.
BTW my original theory on messmer is very similar to yours, but.... different. i feel like he is being used by marika. they are aware of eachother, and i believe your view of him soaking up all he see's around him and being the full culmination of it.... while living in the world of all things that are the antithesis of things accepted in the lands between.. he is exactly what he is. But i believe marika... while first setting foot there.... the place she became a God.... done some straight up evil shit in the war that was waged that seen her rise to Godhood. things she would most certainly want forgotten. there is the cloak called marika's mischief, and the black assassin cloaks etc. that all hint to marika's vieling of this land. to hide it away... so that is forgotten...BUT she knows that from this very land she herself first set foot, and made her rise to Godhood...so since she has hidden this land from everyone... even herself in hopes of forgetting her past vile actions to further push forward this benevolent, life unending loving mother image she wants to badly to portray... she knows about messmer being there... and she is fine with him being her willing heretical tyrant lord there to destroy ANYONE who might think themselves fit to become some fledging upstart God/new era ruler from there... just as she did. Especially while this land has been hidden, and forgotten where her Iron fist, ever vigilant, golden order eyes cannot be watching to crush any descent to her rule.
I love the way you view the game. there are ALWAYS multiple, congruent, meanings/reasons for everything. I feel like your jungian approach IS the base Layer, but I believe what I have just laid out is the 2nd derived layer. the George rr Martin political intrigue layer you might say.
12:30 is where I realized that I'm too immature for this video.
You never told us about Disclamhere
THIS IS GOLD WTTFFFFFFFF
this is the dark souls of silent hill lore
Jam that WHAT INTO THAT ROUND WHAT
Bruh. Content: AWESOME!
But the audio.. you need to work on that. Otherwise: nice research!! ❤
Thanks! I know, it will be addressed soon..... hopefully
Again i think you mistake the crucible or the one great for something. I do believe if the crucible is pre differentiation, then it cannot be a differentiated shadow.
The Dumb n' Dumber reference was nice.
Could Messmer have possibly been Marika's first pregnancy, perhaps conceived under sinful / embarrasing circumstance that resulted in her aborting Messmer? She was young and told to abort the baby to avoid shame? < would line up with the persona aspect, she was forced to do something at a young age to appease the expectations of those around her... Perhaps the old man in the DLC painting took advantage of her... Him pulling something resembling an almost mocking / bastardisation of the Erdtree roots out of himself would be kind of poetic. Meaning, this old man set in motion a shame for Marika - therefore forcefully unlocking the ego. Forcing something resembling her ego inside of this old man who may have impregnated her would be a poetic form of punishment. I think the old guy either way plays a huge role, I do think he is a huge source of hate.
To add.
The unwanted children in the walking mausoleums are maybe connected to her ego to the trauma of aborting Messmer.
She gives these children a chance to make something of themselves, the chance that Messmer never got. She may always be wondering what her son could have been if he'd have only been given the chance. To her, her children not making the most of the opportunity of life touches a raw nerve and it's her in some way actually making up for an aspect of her shadow.
It's like aspects of her shadow poke through into the lands between and vice versa.
Your videos have got me thinking, I love your theories and research!
good stuff
Thank you
I agree with these being the representations of what is happening in the game but I feel like it doesn’t explain the actual lore itself, such as radahn needing to be killed. Radahn is the force pushing back yeah, but that doesn’t tell us what specifically he needs to be killed for.
Before any sort of change can occur, whether on a personal or societal level, the resistance to that change must be dealt with. There have been countless wars that are founded on this change vs resistance premise. One side desperately trying to move past the old and the other clutching to "traditions" no matter how ugly they may be. On a personal level, before one can move through the process of healing or changing behaviors, the resistance to that change must be "defeated". Since Radahn = Resistance to change, he must be dealt with before the process can progress. It's actually a very common theme in literature or cinema.
Marika is clearly there to heal this part of herself or society, but before she can progress in this process, the resistance to change inside herself must be dealt with. That is Radahn.
@@CenteredTarnished I get that but I feel like there isn’t enough proof that the game is literally in marika’s head to say something like taht. Maybe thematically, it would make sense, but radahn literally serves no threat in terms of actual activity in the lands between so it doesn’t make sense for her specifically to need him dead. What you say is interesting but it doesn’t provide the actual lore reason, just a framework for it. Maybe radahn is the resistance and he’s holding back her, miquella, and ranni’s fates because he wants to resist, idk. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Even if this was within marika’s psyche, there’s still actual elements to the characters like you said, and I understand you’re not trying to cheapen the characters, but the way you said it Just makes it sound like you’re saying there’s no actual reason or motive for the people themselves “living in marika’s mind” and it is simply related to the healing of the mind.
@@godly_potatoe69xd19 I guess to me that is a very good lore reason for Radahn having to be defeated in order to go to the DLC. I think you are looking for more like his background lore than the lore I am presenting.... maybe? I guess I'm not really sure what you are looking for.
I think there are tons of reasons and motives for everything in Elden Ring. I mean Radahn really doesn't have that much lore to go on; a little bit of back story through a single cutscene and some item descriptions but they all have a singular theme - resistance to change. Again, just in my opinion.
@@CenteredTarnished idk, it just seems to me that that’s too loose of a reason for him to need to die for the dlc, it’s the equivalent of saying mohg needs to die for the dlc because of whatever aspect is associated with him is the reason, even though there still needs to be a physically plausible reason for him needing to die, which is him kidnapping miquella. The whole psyche thing is more of a background part of the lore to me and is more of a basis for it than something that actually exists in game. So to me it just doesn’t make sense that we would be unable to enter the shadow lands just because it has to do with marika’s psyche. There’s much more lore to support the idea that it’s because miquella needs him dead, seeing as he sent Melenia to kill him and ranni also needed him dead for her fate, as well as miquella was trying to bring about the eclipse, which would need the sun in order for it to happen and the sun is a star. I don’t even fully believe that’s what happened but I just don’t see enough in game lore backing besides the theming undertones for it to be something specifically about marika’s mind. Idk though, I’m excited to see what it is in 4 months
Idk, it seems way too easy to fit jung into a lot of works of literature and storytelling. It seems to me like maybe you are too invested in this one lynchpin in your theories. Jung is on the mind, so you see it everywhere, and again, it is not overly difficult to apply jungian concepts to many stories, especially if they are not outright spelled out.
I agree that Jung concepts are widely universal….
…However, particularly in Japanese media (Persona, Berserk, Dark Souls), there seems to be a much deeper understanding in dealing with these psychological concepts DIRECTLY. These Jungian concepts are confronted, and made manifest in material form.
In my opinion, Miyazaki and Miura are some of the best examples of this in recent times. They understand these concepts better than most, because these concepts play an integral role in how the protagonist interacts with its respective world, more than most Western authors taking influence from Jung. Psychology is a core theme and character and plot device, rather than an aspect of a story
Elden Ring, in particular, seems to be completely FILLED with these concepts (Shadows; multiple-personalities who are made manifest; the Bonfire theory; nighttime relating to the fear of unknown creatures etc, and more)
(P.S - I personally disagree with the ‘Marika/LandsBetween are linked’ concepts, but everything else seems to be apt imo)
TL;DR - Japanese and Anime are hella influenced by Jung lol
I feel like I have a halfway between sort of interpretation. I definitely wouldn't put it past Miyazaki to have taken all this stuff into consideration in building the lore. I think the references are absolutely in the text. But I don't believe that the entire game takes place inside Marika's psyche. I think the Lands Between are a real place as well as a metaphysical one.
It reminds me there is a character in the game who is called "Marika daughter" in game code, who has no body, and who accompanies us in Marika realm.
It's sobering to witness this lens being unfurled at length, magnifying the large amount of suspiciously common elements. For whatever reason, other games get to have layers of depth, but there seems to be a knack to contain ER (in particular) to this "and then the knight stole the cheese for revenge" narrative, where the story gets to be about nothing else. On the other hand, I'm happy that the historians and psychologists can coexist as such, since I believe they undoubtedly complement each other. Or, at the very least, it's good that the historians can't just push the other side (so to speak) to the ditch in hopes of factual supremacy. Perhaps that was never the case, and this is quite natural and healthy a rivalry that ultimately spurs and engages people to approach and reapproach these worlds. And when was that not the point?
I was particularly surprised with the deathroot observation as eyes from the recesses of the shaken self, peering in and invading the would be stronghold of the individual, its world. By association, I also liked the thoughts on Messmer. They certainly add an extra layer of expectation. Exciting!
As always, Kim, insightful and beautiful remarks :) Thank you for the support!
Rennala isn't consumed by the loss of her child. You only said that to fit the theme you were reaching for, but it's just plain wrong. Rennala is overcome by the loss of Radagon which broke her heart, and Radagon broke her mind by giving her a great rune in the form of an Amber Egg.
I can't tell if you're trolling......
How do you explain the constant birthing of the scholars in her boss room? How do you explain the cradles? How do you explain the amber egg perfecting births?
I agree Radagon broke her heart but that has nothing to do with any of the child related themes.
24:39 f lol
Oh yeah this is that good shit
All of this makes so much sense... But I still want to fk up Miquella at the end of it lol He can't be some benevolent figure he has to show his true evil self. I'll be in shambles if not.