TBlock is a good tool for hauling light equipment/person on a 3:1, mabe 100kg? after that you start to worry about the sheath of the line. My opinion is that for whitewater you seldom (never) have that situation so I wouldn't have it there as I'd never use it to tension a line, did some testing a decade+ ago with that (on and old line) and we ripped the sheath using a 3:1. But for hauling it works well.
I think the key information is that the Tibloc is meant for self rescue situations and loads, under 4kn (as written in the manual). NOT as a primary self arrest mechanism for hauling systems moving boats under load, pinned, or otherwise where you could produce significantly more than 4kn on the device. Just use a prusik hitch
Definitely think you're right with your opinion. Familiarity and cost are considerations into any gear you bring into a team environment, especially in a swiftwater environment which can be really hard on gear. The tibloc can cause rope damage even when being used properly and not to the extremes
I think you are 100% correct on this call. Still it's a provocative piece of equipment that may indeed have it's place in a non-rescue situation....like hauling-up bravo echo echo romeo to a picturesque clif spot or hauling down a can of waste from your favorite groover overlook....stuff like that.
Having guided in the mountains , my first thought was ' it's a piece of climbing gear ' and it's going to ruin your rope! My 2nd life as a white water guide : The hitch is universal ! Now I'm off to sign up for a refresher rescue class. Have a great night ✔️
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you. I've carried a Tibloc mountaineering and I really like them in certain applications, but not for rafting/kayaking.
I use tibloc and micro traxion for ski mountaineering and glacier work (especially with modern skinny high strength static lines) , but wouldn't incorporate then into my swift water kit. I do however use my hollow blocks in both applications and love them for getting a bit more bite into skinnier likes V's traditional 6mm or thicker prussik cords.
The safety rating for tibloc is EN 567 which comes under rope clamps and mountaineering equipment. It requires a 4kn load to be placed on all compatible rope sizes in 5 different locations on the rope and not cause any damage on the rope. I'm not experienced in rope systems when it comes to white water or river rescue but I can't imagine a little over 400kg load being placed on the device somehow so I don't think tibloc would cause any damage. Asides it will grip better on wet ropes than prussik will? I wasn't sad enough to research this to dig, the device was given to me to research about during a college assignment. Feedback on what sort of loads you get during rescues and other situations on rivers would be cool.
If you are worried about stripping rope with a Tibloc you have bigger problems as the load on the system will be really high and most likely be overloading 22kN carabiners too, 25% of a carabiners MBS shouldn't be exeeded, not to mention the anchors and what about the person you are moving? I certainly wouldn't want even 5kN of force on me! This is still well below sheath stripping forces. The prussik will melt the rope at those kinds of loads anyway, either way the haul rope is stuffed and your prussik. The prussik will not last forever yet the Tiblic will if looked after. If you are really concerned with high loads, then use a rope grab like a Petzl Shunt that doesn't have the teeth. These will act as a load limiter and also provide some shock obsorbtion if shock loaded. A Shunt will start to slip at around 300kg/3kN. The most important thing is where you use any device in the system and use it accordingly. The only real advantage to a prussik (besides cost) as you had rigged is it's bi-directional. I have steered away from them because they are also hard to move/release once heavily loaded and slow to set up/remove. Don't be scared of the sheath tearing, it gives an indication of how high the load is and the rope still won't break as the core still holds the load. In some cases the rope will break at the knot before you break the rope at the ascender and you don't get a warning. If you are getting rid of Tiblocs, are you getting rid of every other toothed ascender? They all do the same thing! Have a look at the link below, sheath popes at just under 10kN, fine by me. Just putting things into perspective. th-cam.com/video/zdZBEaNLDwU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=RichardDelaney
To me a con might be where a prusik you can move either way of needed. This you have to take off the carabiner to move. Am I wrong anyone. But being small and quick to put on is pretty awesome in its own right.
You're wrong there, it's easy to slide it down by pushing on the plastic, the older version slid down unintended when there wasn't pressure on the line which was not good.
I've really been enjoying your videos! You really have me thinking about pulling together an upgraded river rescue kit. I'm curious of your thoughts on pre-made Prusik loops (like the auto block you mention) vs tying your own? Pros or cons to either?
Continuing my side question on prusiks - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on using a prusik on your bowline to deal with the tides when you tie off your boat on the Grand. If you'd care to discuss/show the setup, function, and your thoughts on the method - or any other boat tie off methods to easily deal with the Grand's water level fluctuations. If you haven't done a video on it already and are looking for ideas. :)
After reading the Petzl's technical information guides and EU certification on this devise, I think if someone got injured using it, they could be setting themselves up for a law suit. JMHO.
I just destroyed my main fresh new expensive rope with a Tbloc. I will never use this thing again : prussik all the way. It bites so deep that it cut all the rope on 30cm. I was just trainning on crevasse rescue, nothing unusual or weird, just the normal safty practice. It's really bad and dangerous.
TBlock is a good tool for hauling light equipment/person on a 3:1, mabe 100kg? after that you start to worry about the sheath of the line. My opinion is that for whitewater you seldom (never) have that situation so I wouldn't have it there as I'd never use it to tension a line, did some testing a decade+ ago with that (on and old line) and we ripped the sheath using a 3:1. But for hauling it works well.
All good points Zach. Thanks for your honesty! 👍👍🇺🇸😁
I think the key information is that the Tibloc is meant for self rescue situations and loads, under 4kn (as written in the manual). NOT as a primary self arrest mechanism for hauling systems moving boats under load, pinned, or otherwise where you could produce significantly more than 4kn on the device. Just use a prusik hitch
Thanks for you honest opinion.
Definitely think you're right with your opinion. Familiarity and cost are considerations into any gear you bring into a team environment, especially in a swiftwater environment which can be really hard on gear. The tibloc can cause rope damage even when being used properly and not to the extremes
I think you are 100% correct on this call. Still it's a provocative piece of equipment that may indeed have it's place in a non-rescue situation....like hauling-up bravo echo echo romeo to a picturesque clif spot or hauling down a can of waste from your favorite groover overlook....stuff like that.
Having guided in the mountains , my first thought was ' it's a piece of climbing gear ' and it's going to ruin your rope! My 2nd life as a white water guide : The hitch is universal ! Now I'm off to sign up for a refresher rescue class. Have a great night ✔️
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree with you. I've carried a Tibloc mountaineering and I really like them in certain applications, but not for rafting/kayaking.
I use tibloc and micro traxion for ski mountaineering and glacier work (especially with modern skinny high strength static lines) , but wouldn't incorporate then into my swift water kit. I do however use my hollow blocks in both applications and love them for getting a bit more bite into skinnier likes V's traditional 6mm or thicker prussik cords.
I agree 100%
Thanks for your thoughts here; I'm removing the tibloc from my kit tomorrow!
The safety rating for tibloc is EN 567 which comes under rope clamps and mountaineering equipment. It requires a 4kn load to be placed on all compatible rope sizes in 5 different locations on the rope and not cause any damage on the rope. I'm not experienced in rope systems when it comes to white water or river rescue but I can't imagine a little over 400kg load being placed on the device somehow so I don't think tibloc would cause any damage. Asides it will grip better on wet ropes than prussik will? I wasn't sad enough to research this to dig, the device was given to me to research about during a college assignment. Feedback on what sort of loads you get during rescues and other situations on rivers would be cool.
A little side note, tibloc is designed to be used on dynamic ropes, not static or semi static.
Makes sense to me I prefer the kiss method basically in all things. Good video.
If you are worried about stripping rope with a Tibloc you have bigger problems as the load on the system will be really high and most likely be overloading 22kN carabiners too, 25% of a carabiners MBS shouldn't be exeeded, not to mention the anchors and what about the person you are moving? I certainly wouldn't want even 5kN of force on me! This is still well below sheath stripping forces. The prussik will melt the rope at those kinds of loads anyway, either way the haul rope is stuffed and your prussik. The prussik will not last forever yet the Tiblic will if looked after. If you are really concerned with high loads, then use a rope grab like a Petzl Shunt that doesn't have the teeth. These will act as a load limiter and also provide some shock obsorbtion if shock loaded. A Shunt will start to slip at around 300kg/3kN. The most important thing is where you use any device in the system and use it accordingly. The only real advantage to a prussik (besides cost) as you had rigged is it's bi-directional. I have steered away from them because they are also hard to move/release once heavily loaded and slow to set up/remove. Don't be scared of the sheath tearing, it gives an indication of how high the load is and the rope still won't break as the core still holds the load. In some cases the rope will break at the knot before you break the rope at the ascender and you don't get a warning. If you are getting rid of Tiblocs, are you getting rid of every other toothed ascender? They all do the same thing! Have a look at the link below, sheath popes at just under 10kN, fine by me. Just putting things into perspective.
th-cam.com/video/zdZBEaNLDwU/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=RichardDelaney
You spelled bite wrong
Nailed it.
To me a con might be where a prusik you can move either way of needed. This you have to take off the carabiner to move. Am I wrong anyone. But being small and quick to put on is pretty awesome in its own right.
You're wrong there, it's easy to slide it down by pushing on the plastic, the older version slid down unintended when there wasn't pressure on the line which was not good.
How about the wall hauler pully and cam built in.
I like using simple things that everyone is commonly trained to use
In icy conditions it will not slip where a friction hitch can
That probably makes it really useful for ice climbing. I’m not sure how useful that is for river rescue.
@@GearGarageTV Probably not very, I actually got it as part of a crevasse rescue kid
The real question is, what advantage are we getting by using the Tibloc? Prusiks work, and they are quick and easy. Why mess with a good thing?
Yep
I've really been enjoying your videos! You really have me thinking about pulling together an upgraded river rescue kit. I'm curious of your thoughts on pre-made Prusik loops (like the auto block you mention) vs tying your own? Pros or cons to either?
I think the pre made loops are way better than tying your own
Continuing my side question on prusiks - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on using a prusik on your bowline to deal with the tides when you tie off your boat on the Grand. If you'd care to discuss/show the setup, function, and your thoughts on the method - or any other boat tie off methods to easily deal with the Grand's water level fluctuations. If you haven't done a video on it already and are looking for ideas. :)
@@AKgrowngal That seems like a good way to handle the changing water levels, but I've never done it so I'm hesitant to share my uneducated opinions.
After reading the Petzl's technical information guides and EU certification on this devise, I think if someone got injured using it, they could be setting themselves up for a law suit. JMHO.
Regarding the working load and the ways to properly install tibloc, read the fkn manual.
I’m far more partial to the Wild Country Rope Man. I’ve personally had the Tibloc shred multiple ropes during rope rescue training.
I just destroyed my main fresh new expensive rope with a Tbloc. I will never use this thing again : prussik all the way. It bites so deep that it cut all the rope on 30cm. I was just trainning on crevasse rescue, nothing unusual or weird, just the normal safty practice. It's really bad and dangerous.
Thanks for sharing your experience
First again I'm back