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Yeah I don't get it as we haven't lost any Flat Tappets either ? touch wood I guess ? We deal strictly with a Lifter Manufacturer.... we check Lobe Taper and Lifter Crown.... no problems so far ?

I have assembled and tested over 10000 engines in the past 35 years. Intial problems started with one manufacturer. Since, many have shifted to the same producers. All have bit it with the lifters. If you are not having issues, you are lucky. That simple. The stock piles of cams still remaining from 30 yrs ago, work fine. Those produced for comp,jegs,summit,speedway all had issues. The high demand profiles for middle performance power plants are scary. No issues with cams in direct replacement levels. As soon as you start increasing to lifts of .500. Or 235° duration. Your springs can't be used for break-in! If you are not checking the lifters...you will have issues. 6 out of 10 times flat tappets fail with bigger cams. 9 out of 10 times, it's the lifter that fails. This is not just in flat tappet. Hydrolic rollers are seeing the same issues. That debunks your break in procedure, or oil debate. From 2000- 2015, it was the highest selling models that failed. Smaller or less know cam distributors were still working with cams produced before 2000. Now in 2024, most of the flat tappet cams have been worked through and higher quality is being demanded from the cam cores themselves. Lifter are also improving. It was the reports from shops, distributors, and utube personalities that got it changed. For any build. Break in with a standard spring. Use assembly grease, NOT just high zinc oil. Hold at 2000 rpm immediately. At any moment it starts to alter timing. Yank the cam! Repeat the break in 3 times before installing final springs. Hold the engine at full temp for 20 minutes for each break in. You will find the problems in that time if there is any. Best to have a reputable shop do the break in. They have more negotiating power when the cam wipes out and destroys everything else. If you are not a shop with that ability. Solid tappet or roller is the only way to go. If you are working with a block from 50 years ago or from the junk yard. Have the lifter bores inspected. Most used blocks are worn out. You are one of few who haven't had the problem. Avoid all cams and lifters produced from 2000-2015. Especially those from comp,lunati, or the mainstream parts suppliers.

Absolutely Spot on advice and very pertinent and accurate information !! This is our experience to a tee! We have a test stand so our initial startup happens basically instantly as soon as we hit the start but! Engine is fully lubed prior to start Timing is verified with dampener and rotor position! Carb is filled and verified by pressure that it’s not blowing over the floats and flooding the motor!!! High moly lube paste is applied to cam and lifters! On non adjustable FE rockers, we ensure proper pushrod depression in lifter at one cylinder and the we assemble the whole set of rocker assemblies without ROTATING THE MOTOR! On adjustable, we use TDC positioning which will only be about .004 larger of lash as of setting by lobe position! ABSOLUTELY DO NOT ROTATE THE MOTOR BY MORE THEN 2 turns which is one full rotation on the camshaft. After break-in, you can then go over the rocker lash adjustment by the lobe method to get them totally dialed in to the proper lash, a few thousands extra lash will not have any adverse effect on cam/lifter break-in! We will add cleanliness as any foreign metal or sand debris that might find its way onto the can lobe or lifter 0:45 face during assembly can be ground into the lobe and you would not be able to see it or really feel it due to the heavy moly lube paste? BE VERY CKEAN AND WORK IN A VERY SANITARY ASSEMBKY AREA OR BETTER YET, ASSEMBLY ROOM! Motor cannot crank over more than 2-4 maximum turns before engine start or you have removed all lubrication from the cam & lifters and now are grinding a rough surface that will lead to cam failure!!!! That’s about 2-3 seconds or starter engagement! After that, take the intake and lifters out, and relube the can lobes and lifters with a brush and try it again! Over our 24 years in business, we have lost only I cam lobe on one camshaft out of hundreds of startup and breakin runs on flat tappet camshafts!

I believe the problems with cam failures have several overlapping root causes. I have a background in heat treatment and metallurgy and have built many motors. The changes in oil makeup, cam lobe design with greater lift ramp angles, extreme spring pressure and the cam/lifter materials used. Contrary to some beliefs many of those name brands have cam blanks made in China with questionable material and even more questionable heat treatment. In addition when a cam lobe gets wiped out was it the lifter or the lobe. Lifters deserve some scrutiny as well. Tight lifter bores will prevent lifter rotation. I had a Comp Cams solid lifter cam go bad a few years ago in a BBC and I was extremely careful during the build and it created a mess. I would like to see a serious builder do some in depth testing of failed cams. To include actual material analysis down to the alloy contents and micro hardness testing of a lobe cross section. Or go roller and be done with the guess work.

Anything that come out of red china is garbage!

Only cam failure I have had was 37 years ago and a Crane, they stood behind it and replaced it.

People have forgotten how to break these things in. You can't just slap a new hydraulic camshaft in and boom you're done. Valve spring pressure is critical. Pull your inner springs out for break in.

I am not an expert in metallurgy, I just want to tell you about my experience with blocks and heads that were manufactured in Mexico. Ok I'm going to be somewhat rustic, here in Mexico when I started building engines due to some failures in the head gaskets I began to question how good the head and block resurfacing job they did in the machine chop was, so it occurred to me to use a glass 1 centimeter thick with two sandpapers glued with a thin layer of spray glue. Holding the glass with a double suction cup I began to carve the surface of the block in different patterns. ok I realized 2 things, the first that the work of the machine chop was very bad in this case, and the second that after applying that in different blocks and heads made in Mexico and made in the USA I can tell you that the amount of manual work and the largest amount of sandpaper that I have to use in a block made in Mexico when purchasing a block made in the USA... I don't know what it contains but the Mexican block is harder

Thank you man for this valuable information, bad luck that I couldn't watch this video before, I'll be honest, I had a failure in 2 compcams, one on a 351w and the other with a 460. I'll talk about the 351w, it had 90lbs beehive springs, ok I put zddp additive in the oil, I lubricated the cam with an assembly lucas thinking it was the right one, I primed the engine before starting, it started quickly, I maintained rpm 2000 for 20 min, exactly as you said in that short period of time the problem came to light, I started to hear a tick tick tick in a lifter... when I disassembled the engine again the cam came out with 1 lobe and 1 lifter completely damaged, what seemed strange to me was that none of the 15 lobes or the 15 lifters had any signs of failure.

Why all of a sudden are mechanics who have decades of experience building engines with flat tappet cams saying there is a problem?

THANK YOU!!!! I've never had a cam wipe either.....I've been using Isky Rev Lube for years!!!!....u validated my methods with pin point accuracy!!....I've never even worried about springs, but now ya got me thinkin.....building a 400 Pontiac, Kauffman Racing heads.....dual spring w/damper.....I mite just remove the inner spring.....but i haven't had to b4, and this is my 3rd go 'round with a set of Kauffman heads......(they BLOW E-heads away).....all my cams have been hyd or solid FLAT tappet, and ALL have been happy......just wondering if I shud remove the inner this time around......I know the spring, its the same one for all 3 sets of heads......never had an issue.....TY for a super concise, well explained vid......I'm now a sub'r, as I'm a HUGE Powell Machine/Weingartner fan, and have been for YEARS, not just recently.....TY sir, PEACE to you!!

I agree with your outlook. Oils are not worse, they have gotton better. Same with the camshafts & materials or even machining. We havnt lost technology, we have gained. We have better everything. More precise, less labor invested for better product. I could possibly believe a quality control decrease? Only becouse cams have changed with the times & i believe most of the money & effort & attention ia probably focused on what is to date. And to date is roller cams, not flat tappet. All cars today are built with roller cams. I dont think any are made with flat tappet? So it coukd be a case of a company keeping a line going or a shop going simply for a small group of people in sociaty that still hold on to what was the past for dear life. The chiefs at such a company might see this shop as not worth it & just a pain in the ass! I can hear them complaining about just even keeping the lights on!!?? Lol! And hence a push toward only making roller cams now?? Now myself also have never had a cam failure & all ive ever used have been flat tappet cams. I think of that stat being true for me, & i think about what i know about when it comes to the mindset of the average American male mechanic of today & im sure they truly beleive they did not make a mistake & did a perfect break in! But anybody that has ever told you about how good they are at their job, you should follow them around for a day & compare what you see to how they describe themselves. To listen to them it makes me wonder how myself & this person have ended up working in the same place?? Why are they not with Nasa??? But also, a look into my past & almost any event one might see can show a definite trend that would suggest im not just getting lucky. If im successful it might mean im doing somthing right??

The actual physical location of the lobes on the core is also an issue- the lobe C/L needs to be .030" behind the lifter bore C/L. Lifter to bore clearance for rotation speed is critical

groove lifter bores so oil sprays on the cam lobe. Comp cams sells a tool for this. old pushrod flat tappy engines always had shitty oiling to the lifters splash oiling just isn't that great. Also you can avoid low quality lifter problems if you just send your old flat tappet lifters in to get refaced there are companies that will do it. Also yes high spring pressure isn't helping either.

I break in many a year never lost 1 I use used ls springs brea in then switch to upgraded pac springs and run it with quality oil that's good for flat tappet. Also use break in rockers when applicable.

Flat tappers have tucked for 20 years now,NASCAR engine builders won't touch em😊

It's poor machining on the lifters

Great t shirt

Never say never

That was the best video I have seen on this topic over the last years, period. Thank you very much for your advice and your recommendations. Now I am confident again for installing a cam in the future 😊

I can't even make it past the first second of the video with calling bullshit. In correct cam lube and break in are causing the problems with cams? We have been using the same lube and break in procedures for over 50 years, moron.

I wonder if people aren't testing lifter bleed down during assembly.

You should run the valve lash to spec. for break in, if you increase the lash, you will be breaking in the lobes and lifters in a different area. also, part of the lobe will get no break in.

I agree 100%. I've never had a failure either, in the same amount of years as you've stated. The main issue is oil and spring pressures, as you stated. Like you mentioned, I run springs around 70-80 lbs on the seat and around 200 or so open for break-in, and I use Valvoline VR-1 in everything I build, but especially flat tappet engines... Last summer though, I did have my first failure. But it took over a year and 1500 miles of driving. But it did what I have never seen in my life. EVERY lifter went bad. ALL 16 of them. They were Crower Cool-Face, EDM style lifters.... Have you heard of or seen anything like this before?

I'm with the crowd on using sealer on freeze plugs, why take a chance

When I tacked up to 6500 (70Mach 1) my buddy (72Mach1)both 351C, he thru his duraspark away and put points in his!

Autolite makes much beefier dist. than motercraft, hell there stuff in gen. is better

I need a dual point Distributor sbf, nobody carries them now! I like points. Compared to fords first couple electronic, single point will out rpm them! Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us!

What so often is not addressed is QC (Quality Control). In the end it is just as much a responsibility of parts suppliers to exercise QC Acceptance Inspection and testing as it is the manufacturer's responsibility. Failure to do acceptance QC whether the parts/materials are sourced from China or the USA invites unscrupulous practices by manufacturers or material suppliers. This is true here in US as well as abroad. In decades past materials and parts were ordered in large quantities and stocked for use over several months or even a year or more. Today's "just in time" inventory management has impacted QC Programs as overly costly and get reduced or eliminated completely. Why do GM's Delphi Lifters have excellent reputation? NOT because they are made in USA, but because GM's QC Acceptance program ensured it! GM could not afford recalling millions of engines because poor or non-existent QC allowed poor quality parts into their system. Years ago I worked in Aerospace Machining and QC started with Material delivery, manufacturing processes (at each step), Final pre-ship QC Inspection AND FINALLY acceptance QC checks by the customers including destructive testing. This final step is most important of all! So blame the cam suppliers if their cams / lifters fail - they did not do their job by holding vendors accountable through QC.

Look at Lake Speed Jr's Motor Oil Geek Channel, he has a really good video called (more zinc= more wear?). Basically he says 1. ZDDP helps to a point, then it starts to hurt, 2. no oil is best for every situation, I guess we need to guess and check? I think I heard him say somewhere the interaction between newer oil and gasoline packages are hurting solid cams somehow. Anyway, it's the lubrication and Lake Speed Jr knows. (or at least more than just 'throw more zinc at it')

I have a solid flat tappet in a 289 and use modern oil it’s fine . Bought 3 solid flat tappet for bbc wiped out all 3 not one lifter all the lifter dead in 5 minutes of run time . Video taped it for cam company. They keep replacing for free . Give it a think ! The cam and lifters are bad

dont run out of gas ! never had a car have a lifter failure

This is the craziest thing back in the day when i really had no idea what i was doing i did several backyard builds with a mixture of new and used parts and never had a cam failure and now its common place.

You mention Powell and he has a video about the crown of the lifter not being correct!

Thank you for a great discussion.

I bought 4 sets of lifter. 2 sbc and 2 sbf. Sent them to Powell Machine before he sold his grinder and 63 of them were out of spec. When he has the gatorman lifters there is very little savings in going flat tappet now. I agree with your valve spring diagnosis though. Years ago I’d run a lighter spring to break them in and switch them after break in. When a Sbf hydraulic flat tappet set is $500 may as well buy a $300 trick flow cam and a $375 set of lifters from Powell or the rebranded model Engine Tex’s for $200 for a sbc and. $270 summit cam.

Don't be ignorant. Certain manufacturers from China quit putting taper on the lobe and a crown on the lifter. Engine shop i work for, has a indicator jig that shows lifter crown. Those that fail have no crown, and no taper on lobe, so on start up the lifter won't spin and will wear to damage in just a couple minutes. If you were more observant or not so ignorant you would know this. Cam companies that were good for decades suddenly was not, China sourced parts were the problem.

We always used a non detergent oil with GM EOS, i see guys on line adding zink to oils not designed for it or claiming you cant have to much... try baking a cake with mentality for ingredients or watch Lake Speeds video about the wear caused by to much zink/phosphorus.

Seat pressure controls the valve, open pressure controls the lifter... the trend to higher spring pressures have been a problem in the solid roller world for over a decade as well.

Isky Rev Lube... Molybdenum disulfide, the best

Back in the day I used to break in the cams with double springs n moly lube n there were no problems. If the cam n lifter hardness specs out then what happened?

I have both Hydraulic rollers and solid flat tappet cams from the same manufacturer...both cams cards are requiring 155 lbs and the seat, and 415 off seat! Crazy shit here!

I agree spring pressure is #1 , so many want to run aftermarket heads with stiffer springs but at some point something has to give up the ghost and the lifter bottoms take the brunt of it .

I agree with most everything said here. Well, I'll rephrase that. I agree with all of this, although I don't do everything said here. Personally, since the early 80s, I use either the entire tub of cam assembly lube or 3 of the 'envelopes'. I goop that stuff all over the cam and lifters. People have told me that I waste it but it isn't a waste. The stuff readily dissolves in the oil and then the Moly and such is sprayed on the cam through the break in. I run the motor for 45+ minutes varying the RPMs between 1900-2750 the entire time. I personally believe 30 minutes to be about the very bare minimum. I have run a number of brands of camshafts with my favorite being Comp Cams. Their assembly lube came with the best directions and it used to say(early 80s) to run the cam 30-45 minutes. I agree and always have (BTW: I have installed/ran a bunch of cams (probably 25-30) all but 3 were flat tappet and I have had 0 cam failures)(I did have one lifter failure but that was a used factory hydraulic roller that had an internal plunger collapse(I'm going to blame the springs on that one!). I think that the big failure rates are improper assembly, lube and procedures. I have seen a TH-cam video with some jackass putting white lithium grease on the cam/lifters and pretending that was some kind of assembly lube! That was pathetic! The best advice I have is the gray/black assembly lube from Comp Cams, use the entire tub n of it, RPMs at or above 1900-2600 for 45 minutes and if in any doubt...Watch some TH-cam videos of cam/engine installs that have a bald or gray haired engine builder! The older Cat has most of his experience with flat lifters designs. Oh, one more thing don't put a bunch of additives in the oil. Assembly lube is fine. I have watched Richard Pettys family and employees add STP to engines being installed in the pits(and I've used the STP myself) but don't put things like Slick 50 or any of these wear preventing additives, in the crankcase. If they work, they are trying to prevent the wear that is needed to wear the cam and lifters in together. I hope this info helps someone who hasn't installed flat tappet Cams before now. Yall Take care and I enjoyed the video. Good info and very nicely done.

Most' of the flat tappet failures out there are a cause of poor preparation of a build. The 1st thing i do with a block that will be using the factory lifter bores before any machining starts is check the lifter bores for clearance with the lifter i will use or at least with a known test lifter (wether its getting flat tappet or roller). Several times doing this i have picked up excess clearance, burrs, scuffing at the bottom from a previously damaged lifter etc. Then, for guys that dont fit their own cam bearings, when you get your block back check that the shop has not burred the bottom edge of the lifter bores by carelessly using the cam bearing installation tool. I always used to get blocks back with small dings at the bottom of the lifter bores that i know were not there previously prior to doing this operation myself. Deburr your lifter bores if required. A 'very' light hone to cleanup the surface is not a bad thing, dont go crazy. After final cleaning of the block again the 1st operation while acess is easy is to pass a lifter thru every bore, ensure it passes thru with absolutely no catching or resistance at all, if it does, fix the problem or thay lifter is failing. (Goes for roller lifter also) Next the cam goes in to test lobe offset, ensure that every(flat tappet) lobe is slightly off center to the lifter bore, if a lobe is centered, it will fail. Use quality parts! Do not use a prelube that dissolves in oil! You want a moderate coat of 3% Moly grease on every lobe and on every lifter 'base', not the lifter body only engine oil on the body. No this will not block any oil filter, cut the filter after break in, you will see little lumps of the moly grease but the filter is not blocked. The reason for moly grease is that it will not dissolve and drop off as soon as oil splash hits it(use dissolving lube on a test cam, then pour engine oil over it and watch how quickly it begins to dissapear), the moly provides an excellent film to get started, any excess moly pushes to the lobes edge and as the engine runs you have a small 'reserce supply' of moly that can acess the lifter base as it is throw off via centrifugal force, only some of it gets the lifter but it all helps to stop any scuffing early on. No part of the valvetrain must bind, lack clearance for lift etc. Dont be lazy, use lighter springs for as long as possible, take inner springs out , buy light springs that can take the lift etc. If the customer is ok with it I have them leave light springs in for 500 to 1000km, just keep the rpm in check. If its not practical then so be it but 30 to 40 mins of light spring use is a 'must'. Change oil and filter after 30 to 40 mins. Dont use any of the cr@p additives! Get the correct oil from the beginning. Mineral or synthetic, low Detergent and moderate zddp, 1200ppm to 1800ppm is where you want to be. If its a solid flat tappet, ask your cam co what the tightest allowance on lash is, use this at 1st break in so that break in includes ever area of the open/close ramps that are ever likely to be used under full spring load. Prime your oiling system wherever possible. After lifters are under valvetrain load, do not turn the engine prior to start up any more than absolutely necessary for fittment. Set everything so the engine runs immediately on startup, use a known carb that was working thay day not 3 months ago, test for spark or use a known dissy, put a point dissy in for , whatever you know will work immediately. I could go on 🤣 **

I use to use overkill springs on a 13-1 440 with a mech cam.Last one I used the rec springs and it went flat. I fixed all my problems and went roller.

Another great video, love the idea on lash adjustment / prime and rotate. Yes have the timing set and if using a carb fill it first.

I blame social media (aka chinese whisper)for the 'increase' in flat tappet failures!

35 years in the engine business many race wins and championship motor go through our shop.and this year tops it all. We have had 9 flat tappet motors go flat . They have had break in springs installed with 100 lb seat and 260 open with Amsoil BR oil in them an had approximately three to four sessions of run time as long as one hour. Bring them in change to the race spring and a race or two then one or two lobes go flat. 2024 has been a night mirror. Insiders at Howard's and Comp Cams have told me most every lifter is now a product of China. I was able to get a set of EDM solid lifters from Crower a week or so ago where they claimed they were USA made lifters. Will see how this goes. Until this is fixed we are trying to stay away from solids until something changes. Problem now is lots of what we do are flat tappet class built that require the flat tappet stuff. Hope the Camshaft Lifter manufactures get there act together soon for the sake of staying in business.We have had Ford 351 style motors running seventy six hundred RPM ten years back in the Texas Super Racing Series that had 160 seat 390 open flat tappet cams that still holds the track record at track here in Texas. Another 363 flat tappet Ford in a dirt limited late model that worst finish was second until they changer rules. Something in the flat tappet world changed for sure. 🤔

Great info, thanks for taking the time to make this video!