35 years in the engine business many race wins and championship motor go through our shop.and this year tops it all. We have had 9 flat tappet motors go flat . They have had break in springs installed with 100 lb seat and 260 open with Amsoil BR oil in them an had approximately three to four sessions of run time as long as one hour. Bring them in change to the race spring and a race or two then one or two lobes go flat. 2024 has been a night mirror. Insiders at Howard's and Comp Cams have told me most every lifter is now a product of China. I was able to get a set of EDM solid lifters from Crower a week or so ago where they claimed they were USA made lifters. Will see how this goes. Until this is fixed we are trying to stay away from solids until something changes. Problem now is lots of what we do are flat tappet class built that require the flat tappet stuff. Hope the Camshaft Lifter manufactures get there act together soon for the sake of staying in business.We have had Ford 351 style motors running seventy six hundred RPM ten years back in the Texas Super Racing Series that had 160 seat 390 open flat tappet cams that still holds the track record at track here in Texas. Another 363 flat tappet Ford in a dirt limited late model that worst finish was second until they changer rules. Something in the flat tappet world changed for sure. 🤔
100% brother, my uncle has been building engines for 40 years. He owns an old toyota townace van that has gm flat tappet cams and the van has an absolute heap of miles on it. He uses the cheapest oil you can find, most of the time its different weights and even used chain lube and the van just keeps going and going. Goes to show, the industry is not lying, something is not right, the cores are rubbish all round…. Probably bad batches from China. Nice money making excercise for the industry.
I can say with 100% certainty materials sourced from China are inferior. I worked in the heat treating industry for many years and we would regularly investigate cases where parts failed or didn't respond within spec to heat treatment. We would do a analysis of the material and it would be deficient in the content of a variety of metals like nickel, chromium, and molybdenum. Chinese manufactures would intentionally reduce these elements as a cost savings and improperly label a material knowing its out of spec. Until I see a qualified lab do a XRF and microhardness testing of cams and lifter to prove otherwise I will suspect China is selling us garbage along with the blue pills killing half the country.
This is the craziest thing back in the day when i really had no idea what i was doing i did several backyard builds with a mixture of new and used parts and never had a cam failure and now its common place.
We’ve all done that “slap it together” junk engine at some point, it’s shocking how long they seem to last. But if you tried using mixed up parts at a much higher performance level, it fails much sooner.
@@TheGT350Garage just saying something is a miss when you have to go through all these checks and procedures and still have failures, and I have never even went through the breakin period just assemble throw it in the car and drive it to work 80 miles away and no problems.
Excellent video on all points. The most important point in this video for me is what I've been saying for several years now. Cam manufacturers recommended spring pressure has gone up over the years and kills FT cams. When you tear down a factory roller engine and it has less valve spring than your new flat tappet there's a problem. If your looking for high rpm valve control at least break it in with less valve spring pressure.
I bought 4 sets of lifter. 2 sbc and 2 sbf. Sent them to Powell Machine before he sold his grinder and 63 of them were out of spec. When he has the gatorman lifters there is very little savings in going flat tappet now. I agree with your valve spring diagnosis though. Years ago I’d run a lighter spring to break them in and switch them after break in. When a Sbf hydraulic flat tappet set is $500 may as well buy a $300 trick flow cam and a $375 set of lifters from Powell or the rebranded model Engine Tex’s for $200 for a sbc and. $270 summit cam.
Excellent video. I am an amateur home mechanic. I used to be scared to death about firing up new flat tappet motors because of the recent horror stories. I have recently fired up two freshly rebuilt Mopar engines, a 440 and 318 with aftermarket mild flat tappet cams. I performed ALL the steps you listed above, including a "lifter drop" test to make sure they fall smoothly into the bores. Although I've read break-in instructions saying 20 minutes, I always go 25 to 30. I break-in hovering around the 2,500rpm range. I also take the time, effort, and hassle to break in the cams on the factory springs. I don't install the stronger springs until after the break in period. It's a lot of extra work, especially when it's in the car, but so far I haven't had any failures. Here's the one thing I didn't hear you mention. I vary the rpm every so often to try to help any lifter having a problem rotating. I try to induce, and remove a "load" by doing this, hoping to free up any stuck ones. Here is what I've seen from other failures on TH-cam. I've watched some of my favorite Mopar channels fire up a new engine or cam and wipe out lobes and lifters. The common denominator? They all WALK AWAY from the engine. They fire it up, screw in the idle speed screw to 2,500rpm and literally walk away, coming back 20 minutes later. I don't understand why after spending all that money and time, they can't "babysit" the motor for 25 minutes to vary the rpm.
I’m big on babysitting the engine, I do vary the RPM a little, but not much. Changing the load on the engine is really more for the piston rings than the valvetrain. The valvetrain will behave predictably the same at steady state, but under acceleration and deceleration it’s so similar, it’s kind of a placebo to think it has any real benefit to the break in.
Thank you man for this valuable information, bad luck that I couldn't watch this video before, I'll be honest, I had a failure in 2 compcams, one on a 351w and the other with a 460. I'll talk about the 351w, it had 90lbs beehive springs, ok I put zddp additive in the oil, I lubricated the cam with an assembly lucas thinking it was the right one, I primed the engine before starting, it started quickly, I maintained rpm 2000 for 20 min, exactly as you said in that short period of time the problem came to light, I started to hear a tick tick tick in a lifter... when I disassembled the engine again the cam came out with 1 lobe and 1 lifter completely damaged, what seemed strange to me was that none of the 15 lobes or the 15 lifters had any signs of failure.
Good point about the spring-pressures, when I was checking to see if the springs on my AFR heads were right for the cam, comp's web-site listed of a page of "compatible" springs that varied wildly in pressures! Its been decades since I used a flat-tappet cam but it was a comp cam and I didn't do anything special, I slapped some cam-lube on and ran it for 20 minutes at 2000 rpm. I had the motor apart 10 years later and the wear-pattern looked great. This was almost 25 years ago though and sadly I have seen a few alarming quality-control issues from Comp (recently a whole box of hydraulic lifters with all the retaining rings fallen out before I even removed them from the box!).
Ultimately, the responsibility to verify the parts are correct for the application and meet the standard of quality required falls on the end user. In the automotive industry, that was always the mechanic performing the job. Sadly, those skills are being lost because the industry has moved away from repair of a sub assembly to straight replacement. I would love to teach my students far more about engine repair, but manufacturers only want them to be able to diagnose a failure and replace an assembly, it limits warranty claims and comebacks, but robs the technicians of these traditional skills.
Measure the lobes and look for .0025-.0040” (2-1/2 to 4 thousandths) of taper and lifter crowns for .0010-.0025” (1 to 2-1/2 thousandths) of crown. If you’re in those ranges the parts are machined correctly. Use a good lube like Isky Rev Lube, and be thorough and precise when adjusting the rockers and priming. Have the ignition timing dialed in and pre-fill the carb for the best success.
Powell machine definitely said the lifters are the problem, not being ground correctly. Also i talk to a local engine builder, he said he only used assembly grease, not one failure
THANK YOU!!!! I've never had a cam wipe either.....I've been using Isky Rev Lube for years!!!!....u validated my methods with pin point accuracy!!....I've never even worried about springs, but now ya got me thinkin.....building a 400 Pontiac, Kauffman Racing heads.....dual spring w/damper.....I mite just remove the inner spring.....but i haven't had to b4, and this is my 3rd go 'round with a set of Kauffman heads......(they BLOW E-heads away).....all my cams have been hyd or solid FLAT tappet, and ALL have been happy......just wondering if I shud remove the inner this time around......I know the spring, its the same one for all 3 sets of heads......never had an issue.....TY for a super concise, well explained vid......I'm now a sub'r, as I'm a HUGE Powell Machine/Weingartner fan, and have been for YEARS, not just recently.....TY sir, PEACE to you!!
I have assembled and tested over 10000 engines in the past 35 years. Intial problems started with one manufacturer. Since, many have shifted to the same producers. All have bit it with the lifters. If you are not having issues, you are lucky. That simple. The stock piles of cams still remaining from 30 yrs ago, work fine. Those produced for comp,jegs,summit,speedway all had issues. The high demand profiles for middle performance power plants are scary. No issues with cams in direct replacement levels. As soon as you start increasing to lifts of .500. Or 235° duration. Your springs can't be used for break-in! If you are not checking the lifters...you will have issues. 6 out of 10 times flat tappets fail with bigger cams. 9 out of 10 times, it's the lifter that fails. This is not just in flat tappet. Hydrolic rollers are seeing the same issues. That debunks your break in procedure, or oil debate. From 2000- 2015, it was the highest selling models that failed. Smaller or less know cam distributors were still working with cams produced before 2000. Now in 2024, most of the flat tappet cams have been worked through and higher quality is being demanded from the cam cores themselves. Lifter are also improving. It was the reports from shops, distributors, and utube personalities that got it changed. For any build. Break in with a standard spring. Use assembly grease, NOT just high zinc oil. Hold at 2000 rpm immediately. At any moment it starts to alter timing. Yank the cam! Repeat the break in 3 times before installing final springs. Hold the engine at full temp for 20 minutes for each break in. You will find the problems in that time if there is any. Best to have a reputable shop do the break in. They have more negotiating power when the cam wipes out and destroys everything else. If you are not a shop with that ability. Solid tappet or roller is the only way to go. If you are working with a block from 50 years ago or from the junk yard. Have the lifter bores inspected. Most used blocks are worn out. You are one of few who haven't had the problem. Avoid all cams and lifters produced from 2000-2015. Especially those from comp,lunati, or the mainstream parts suppliers.
You need to look deeper in the comments, I’m far from one of a few not having problems, and most of use are doing things exactly the same way. Those of us not having failures aren’t pointing fingers at the far east, we’re methodical and taking a proactive approach of verifying the machining, then applying long established practices. In a high productivity shop working on anything and everything, time is money, machinists and engine builders get complacent, they turn on the “I’ve been doing this for DECADES” mentality and little steps get overlooked.
The second gen hemi is notoriously hard on cams and lifters where wear is concerned. They required heavy springs to deal with the rocker assembly and the cam specs. Still, they werent going around puking cams like now. They were getting proper break-in. They had more appreciable wear at 30,000 miles than non-hemis. I don't doubt there's been some industrial sabotage. As we have seen recently, as voices rise in opposition, a bad rep blossoms. If enough noise gets made, the group generally moves to something else, in this case roller cams instead of doing the work to break the flat cam in properly.
The actual physical location of the lobes on the core is also an issue- the lobe C/L needs to be .030" behind the lifter bore C/L. Lifter to bore clearance for rotation speed is critical
I agree spring pressure is #1 , so many want to run aftermarket heads with stiffer springs but at some point something has to give up the ghost and the lifter bottoms take the brunt of it .
Some “Volunteer State” big CC cam company employee ground a bunch of flat tappet cams with no lobe taper on them years ago from what I’ve been told….No lobe taper….no lifter rotation! I agree on many people running to stiff of a spring rate. I’d rather pay the $$$ for lightweight valves than for expensive lifters. I built a Chevy 1970 LT-1 370HP motor with a Bullet Cam (Ultradyne lobes) in 2012 and that car is still running strong (high 12 second 1/4mile times in full street trim) That LT-1 is approaching 30,000 miles of service….Has 5/16” valves beehive springs & tool steel retainers….Good basic hardware….Oh! Lifters are old AC Delco “585” edge orifice OEM lifters that were reground to 100” Radiuus by Rocker Arm Specialties in Northen California….thats right! Re-used some lifters after they were properly refaced….Those AC Delco have a Stellite base on them….great stuff!
So, it’s worth the money to use good parts like lighter valves and better quality/design springs. There’s no downside either way. Refacing known good lifters is fine as well, honestly “if it ain’t broke” don’t fix it. As long as the cost to reface a set of lifters remains less than new lifters, using a known good part is probably ideal. Refacing will have a minimal change on the valve adjustment or pushrod length, not enough to require a different pushrod. With the taper and crown issue being a known concern, it just needs to be verified on every lobe and every lifter by the installer.
Seat pressure controls the valve, open pressure controls the lifter... the trend to higher spring pressures have been a problem in the solid roller world for over a decade as well.
Nice video, I definitely think it’s the spring pressure. I had one fail on me in 2005, the oil debacle wasn’t well known at that time and the spring pressure was higher for solid flat tappet camshaft.
Don't be ignorant. Certain manufacturers from China quit putting taper on the lobe and a crown on the lifter. Engine shop i work for, has a indicator jig that shows lifter crown. Those that fail have no crown, and no taper on lobe, so on start up the lifter won't spin and will wear to damage in just a couple minutes. If you were more observant or not so ignorant you would know this. Cam companies that were good for decades suddenly was not, China sourced parts were the problem.
They realized that no one on the receiver's end was going to do QC and reject their deliveries. So they quit doing the expensive work and pocketed the difference. You _can_ get quality work from China, but you have to pay for it and continue to verify the product meets design specs.
Ignorant? What does your claim of “Certain manufacturers” accomplish without calling them out? You clearly came here to complain but not to help. If you build engines and don’t share the manufacturers you’re having problems with, you’re not helping anyone. But you seem to enjoy sharing an otherwise useless opinion.
That was the best video I have seen on this topic over the last years, period. Thank you very much for your advice and your recommendations. Now I am confident again for installing a cam in the future 😊
I agree with most everything said here. Well, I'll rephrase that. I agree with all of this, although I don't do everything said here. Personally, since the early 80s, I use either the entire tub of cam assembly lube or 3 of the 'envelopes'. I goop that stuff all over the cam and lifters. People have told me that I waste it but it isn't a waste. The stuff readily dissolves in the oil and then the Moly and such is sprayed on the cam through the break in. I run the motor for 45+ minutes varying the RPMs between 1900-2750 the entire time. I personally believe 30 minutes to be about the very bare minimum. I have run a number of brands of camshafts with my favorite being Comp Cams. Their assembly lube came with the best directions and it used to say(early 80s) to run the cam 30-45 minutes. I agree and always have (BTW: I have installed/ran a bunch of cams (probably 25-30) all but 3 were flat tappet and I have had 0 cam failures)(I did have one lifter failure but that was a used factory hydraulic roller that had an internal plunger collapse(I'm going to blame the springs on that one!). I think that the big failure rates are improper assembly, lube and procedures. I have seen a TH-cam video with some jackass putting white lithium grease on the cam/lifters and pretending that was some kind of assembly lube! That was pathetic! The best advice I have is the gray/black assembly lube from Comp Cams, use the entire tub n of it, RPMs at or above 1900-2600 for 45 minutes and if in any doubt...Watch some TH-cam videos of cam/engine installs that have a bald or gray haired engine builder! The older Cat has most of his experience with flat lifters designs. Oh, one more thing don't put a bunch of additives in the oil. Assembly lube is fine. I have watched Richard Pettys family and employees add STP to engines being installed in the pits(and I've used the STP myself) but don't put things like Slick 50 or any of these wear preventing additives, in the crankcase. If they work, they are trying to prevent the wear that is needed to wear the cam and lifters in together. I hope this info helps someone who hasn't installed flat tappet Cams before now. Yall Take care and I enjoyed the video. Good info and very nicely done.
You’re still going to sling oil off the rods onto the cam even with a windage tray, you’re just . The windage tray is as much to keep oil in the pan as to pull it off the crank, I’ve found windage trays are more important in cars that see higher cornering loads and crank scrapers are more beneficial for drag racing. I’m running both a gated T-sump 9-quart pan with a windage tray and I have no concerns but I’m also running a roller cam.
Great video share. We do need to verify the quality of the parts we are using. Its part of the assembly process to check everything. I did recently watch a Yt video where the senior engineer of a major cam company was laughing joking about flat tappet cams being a thing of the past and people need to get with the program. Scratch that Comp cams company from the list of eligible candidates...
Most' of the flat tappet failures out there are a cause of poor preparation of a build. The 1st thing i do with a block that will be using the factory lifter bores before any machining starts is check the lifter bores for clearance with the lifter i will use or at least with a known test lifter (wether its getting flat tappet or roller). Several times doing this i have picked up excess clearance, burrs, scuffing at the bottom from a previously damaged lifter etc. Then, for guys that dont fit their own cam bearings, when you get your block back check that the shop has not burred the bottom edge of the lifter bores by carelessly using the cam bearing installation tool. I always used to get blocks back with small dings at the bottom of the lifter bores that i know were not there previously prior to doing this operation myself. Deburr your lifter bores if required. A 'very' light hone to cleanup the surface is not a bad thing, dont go crazy. After final cleaning of the block again the 1st operation while acess is easy is to pass a lifter thru every bore, ensure it passes thru with absolutely no catching or resistance at all, if it does, fix the problem or thay lifter is failing. (Goes for roller lifter also) Next the cam goes in to test lobe offset, ensure that every(flat tappet) lobe is slightly off center to the lifter bore, if a lobe is centered, it will fail. Use quality parts! Do not use a prelube that dissolves in oil! You want a moderate coat of 3% Moly grease on every lobe and on every lifter 'base', not the lifter body only engine oil on the body. No this will not block any oil filter, cut the filter after break in, you will see little lumps of the moly grease but the filter is not blocked. The reason for moly grease is that it will not dissolve and drop off as soon as oil splash hits it(use dissolving lube on a test cam, then pour engine oil over it and watch how quickly it begins to dissapear), the moly provides an excellent film to get started, any excess moly pushes to the lobes edge and as the engine runs you have a small 'reserce supply' of moly that can acess the lifter base as it is throw off via centrifugal force, only some of it gets the lifter but it all helps to stop any scuffing early on. No part of the valvetrain must bind, lack clearance for lift etc. Dont be lazy, use lighter springs for as long as possible, take inner springs out , buy light springs that can take the lift etc. If the customer is ok with it I have them leave light springs in for 500 to 1000km, just keep the rpm in check. If its not practical then so be it but 30 to 40 mins of light spring use is a 'must'. Change oil and filter after 30 to 40 mins. Dont use any of the cr@p additives! Get the correct oil from the beginning. Mineral or synthetic, low Detergent and moderate zddp, 1200ppm to 1800ppm is where you want to be. If its a solid flat tappet, ask your cam co what the tightest allowance on lash is, use this at 1st break in so that break in includes ever area of the open/close ramps that are ever likely to be used under full spring load. Prime your oiling system wherever possible. After lifters are under valvetrain load, do not turn the engine prior to start up any more than absolutely necessary for fittment. Set everything so the engine runs immediately on startup, use a known carb that was working thay day not 3 months ago, test for spark or use a known dissy, put a point dissy in for , whatever you know will work immediately. I could go on 🤣 **
I agree 100%. I've never had a failure either, in the same amount of years as you've stated. The main issue is oil and spring pressures, as you stated. Like you mentioned, I run springs around 70-80 lbs on the seat and around 200 or so open for break-in, and I use Valvoline VR-1 in everything I build, but especially flat tappet engines... Last summer though, I did have my first failure. But it took over a year and 1500 miles of driving. But it did what I have never seen in my life. EVERY lifter went bad. ALL 16 of them. They were Crower Cool-Face, EDM style lifters.... Have you heard of or seen anything like this before?
An across the board failure after than long would be either a break down or contamination in the oil, a change in the available lubricant volume to the cam and lifters. Unlikely to be a mechanical cause or springs because the chance that 16 springs failed the same way is astronomically high, like winning the lottery odds.
@ may have been, may not. That motor did not fire right up, and I could have caused it. Crane took the cam back, with a copy of the speed shop receipt, showing it was bought with springs, and stood behind it. I made sure it fired right up round 2. I never really knew the cause, but credit crane with standing behind it.
But it’s not every lifter, and there isn’t one “correct” spec for lifter crown that goes for all makes and models of engine. I give him a pass on that because he’s being overly cautious on that point.
Absolutely Spot on advice and very pertinent and accurate information !! This is our experience to a tee! We have a test stand so our initial startup happens basically instantly as soon as we hit the start but! Engine is fully lubed prior to start Timing is verified with dampener and rotor position! Carb is filled and verified by pressure that it’s not blowing over the floats and flooding the motor!!! High moly lube paste is applied to cam and lifters! On non adjustable FE rockers, we ensure proper pushrod depression in lifter at one cylinder and the we assemble the whole set of rocker assemblies without ROTATING THE MOTOR! On adjustable, we use TDC positioning which will only be about .004 larger of lash as of setting by lobe position! ABSOLUTELY DO NOT ROTATE THE MOTOR BY MORE THEN 2 turns which is one full rotation on the camshaft. After break-in, you can then go over the rocker lash adjustment by the lobe method to get them totally dialed in to the proper lash, a few thousands extra lash will not have any adverse effect on cam/lifter break-in! We will add cleanliness as any foreign metal or sand debris that might find its way onto the can lobe or lifter 0:45 face during assembly can be ground into the lobe and you would not be able to see it or really feel it due to the heavy moly lube paste? BE VERY CKEAN AND WORK IN A VERY SANITARY ASSEMBKY AREA OR BETTER YET, ASSEMBLY ROOM! Motor cannot crank over more than 2-4 maximum turns before engine start or you have removed all lubrication from the cam & lifters and now are grinding a rough surface that will lead to cam failure!!!! That’s about 2-3 seconds or starter engagement! After that, take the intake and lifters out, and relube the can lobes and lifters with a brush and try it again! Over our 24 years in business, we have lost only I cam lobe on one camshaft out of hundreds of startup and breakin runs on flat tappet camshafts!
Absolutely 100% agree that a clean work area is crucial and may be a contributing factor no one is considering. I’ll add that wearing gloves and changing them if you are handling parts that have assembly and break in lube on them to keep your hands clean, or just wash your hands regularly, goes a long way to prevent contaminants.
Back in the day I used to break in the cams with double springs n moly lube n there were no problems. If the cam n lifter hardness specs out then what happened?
I agree with your outlook. Oils are not worse, they have gotton better. Same with the camshafts & materials or even machining. We havnt lost technology, we have gained. We have better everything. More precise, less labor invested for better product. I could possibly believe a quality control decrease? Only becouse cams have changed with the times & i believe most of the money & effort & attention ia probably focused on what is to date. And to date is roller cams, not flat tappet. All cars today are built with roller cams. I dont think any are made with flat tappet? So it coukd be a case of a company keeping a line going or a shop going simply for a small group of people in sociaty that still hold on to what was the past for dear life. The chiefs at such a company might see this shop as not worth it & just a pain in the ass! I can hear them complaining about just even keeping the lights on!!?? Lol! And hence a push toward only making roller cams now?? Now myself also have never had a cam failure & all ive ever used have been flat tappet cams. I think of that stat being true for me, & i think about what i know about when it comes to the mindset of the average American male mechanic of today & im sure they truly beleive they did not make a mistake & did a perfect break in! But anybody that has ever told you about how good they are at their job, you should follow them around for a day & compare what you see to how they describe themselves. To listen to them it makes me wonder how myself & this person have ended up working in the same place?? Why are they not with Nasa??? But also, a look into my past & almost any event one might see can show a definite trend that would suggest im not just getting lucky. If im successful it might mean im doing somthing right??
Hi Walter, May I request that film your reassembly process of your 289. Not sure how many videos you could get out of it. Many of us will be glued to our smartphones.
I’ve been off work for a couple weeks, took a vacation, and have just burned through some much needed down time. I’ll be filming more this week and plan to get a video out weekly at least. The engine build is my primary goal for the next phase of the car. From there I have more things in the works, and the build should start to move forward nicely here soon. I’ll be posting step by step the build.
I have a solid flat tappet in a 289 and use modern oil it’s fine . Bought 3 solid flat tappet for bbc wiped out all 3 not one lifter all the lifter dead in 5 minutes of run time . Video taped it for cam company. They keep replacing for free . Give it a think ! The cam and lifters are bad
Three cam/lifter failures in the same engine, and you identify the cam and lifters as the problem, but if you put it together all three times using the same springs, same assembly lube and using the same startup procedures, you are ignoring major potential contributors to the repeat failure.
You can put the same cam and lifters in two identical short blocks and use two different sets of heads only to have one cam be fine and the other to fail. Unless you’re verifying the valve spring retainer doesn’t contact the seal, that the springs are at the correct seat and open pressures, and ensuring the critical factors of the build are all correct, it’s completely unfair to say that a “Brand X” cam and lifters in a 289 Ford worked fine but their BBC cam and lifters were junk.
We always used a non detergent oil with GM EOS, i see guys on line adding zink to oils not designed for it or claiming you cant have to much... try baking a cake with mentality for ingredients or watch Lake Speeds video about the wear caused by to much zink/phosphorus.
From what I can gather, its not really materials on the bulk of failures. Sometimes its grind of lobe or lifter, sometimes its the oil. And sometimes, the block is clapped out: sloppy lifter bores find rotation problems. A dingleball hone on 30+ year old iron? That makes me nervous. I must admit this: oil is the most complex thing in our engines, and API specs [as found on containers when purchased] convey less than 10% of the information that matters. And the more I dig, the more it seems break-in time must be capped - never extended. Ford? Maximum run in of 10 minutes back in the day [I think they shaved it to 8]. Maybe that's worth looking at, and maybe... the SM spec was a disaster without a news story. Notice the detergent package for SP was pulled back.
The average shop can’t test metallurgy or hardness. But they can check machining accuracy. And to a greater extent, so can most home builders with as little as a $30 digital caliper. A small wheel cylinder hone for the lifter bores can make all the difference, a small ball hone will also work. If a block significant wear in the lifter bores, the can be bushed and honed to size to restore an otherwise serviceable block, and this is especially true in restoration of cars like Shelby Mustangs where the original block has a VIN stamping. Oil is easy, don’t buy any oil for a modern engine, including so-called high mileage oils. Stick to Valvoline VR-1, Driven, Brad Penn, Amsoil Hot Rod oil, or any other quality oil formulated specifically for older engine designs using flat tappet engines, and as I’ve mentioned elsewhere in the comments, diesel oils are no longer broadly suitable for flat tappet use, you have to do extensive research on what is currently in the bottle to be sure it will work.
Look at Lake Speed Jr's Motor Oil Geek Channel, he has a really good video called (more zinc= more wear?). Basically he says 1. ZDDP helps to a point, then it starts to hurt, 2. no oil is best for every situation, I guess we need to guess and check? I think I heard him say somewhere the interaction between newer oil and gasoline packages are hurting solid cams somehow. Anyway, it's the lubrication and Lake Speed Jr knows. (or at least more than just 'throw more zinc at it')
It’s not the lubrication ‘if’ you’re using the correct oil formulation for an engine with a flat tappet or direct acting mechanical bucket cam. Engines like the Mercedes AMG W156 (direct acting mechanical buckets in a 7500rpm 6.2L DOHC V8) have cam and lifter failures due to the lack or EP additives since Mobil 1 reformulated their European 0w40 and 5w40 oils (which were viable in muscle cars up to about 2010 or so. Use the correct oil.
I use driven breaking oil , driven hot rod oil and driven assembly lube and I've had good luck I don't use racing oil or diesel oil because my application is neither , oil has anti-wear and extreme pressure additives and zinc is heat activated so i imagine breaking oil zinc comes into lower temperature when it comes in it leaves a hard candy coating on the lobes which is beneficial for dry starts or low oil situations so like you said it's important to get the oil splashing on the cam so the other additives like boron can do their job not all zinc is created equal either there's different formulations for different oils so just because a oil has a lot of zinc doesn't mean it's any good for your application other than GM EOS its hard to know about any of the other zinc additives other than claims which a proper break and oil is all you should need anyways . Great video thanks for putting it out
Something that's always made me scratch my head is back in the day MSD came out with the soft touch rev control saying it progressively gently cuts ignition to certain holes until RPMs stopped climbing vs a violent complete ignition cut off on off on and it seems now the standard is violent compleat cutting the ignition on of on off on both low and high rpm limiters... Have we gone backwards in technology or something? When I see an engine on a 2 step in neutral popping bucking and banging spitting fire on the launch limiter I can't help but think yikes that can't be good for anything in that rotating assembly timing gears bearings wrist pins pistons, it has to be causing a th rotating assembly to have a backlash event inside from load unload load unload, but man apparently it looks sooo cool it's worth the engine wear it's causing I guess... It wouldn't be anywhere as cool just climbing and then just smoothly calmly stop climbing once reaching a set rpm. I dunno maybe I'm wrong because with modern turbo engines now making insane power climbing so fast a soft touch doesn't react quick enough and allow it to overshoot the selected rpm? Just seem like it's really hard on the engine. It always seems like the little turbo imports are popping and farting the entire way down the track and that doesn't seem like it would be the most efficient way to run for max acceleration? It just seems like it's shifting so quickly it's popping almost non-stop the whole way 1 second of clean and pop pop another second and pop pop. I guess they must be accelerating quickly if it need to shift that fast.
I’m not going to claim I understand every ignition company’s rev limiters but most are of the soft touch variety. The OEM stuff is all done with fuel limiting and now electronic throttle control, it’s not quite a soft limit. On our Macan Turbo, the limiter is not brutal at all, in fact it’s quite gentle, but Porsche does some things differently, if not better than most other OEMs, and that little car is freakishly fast on the launch control, it sounds like a 2-step/line lock car at a drag strip. I’ve become a fan of the Pertronix Digital HP ignition, its limiter is gentle like the MSD Soft-Touch, but the adjustability of the unit and ignition’s performance for its size are undeniably excellent. I simply haven’t had reason to try the new MSD Digital 6AL-2 or whatever they call it. I would like to experiment with one using a programmable ignition curve. To your point of the limiter being hard on the rotating assembly, yes, I think a harsh limiter can induce unwanted stress on the rotating assembly and also the engine block itself. But this is why racing is expensive and we’ve always said if you want to play, be prepared to pay.
What type of oil do you use for every day driving on 383 sbc with a 204/214 duration 420/444 lift flat tappet cam? Been using 15w40 Mobil Delvac in it for first break-in and 2000 miles??
I have to caution against using diesel oils with flat tappet cams. Others have talked about this in these comments and the reality is that many if not most diesel oils have had the zinc and phosphorous levels reduced drastically to protect the diesel particular filters and dual oxidation catalysts on modern trucks, so the levels on CK-4/SN spec oils are coming in below 800ppm, and this is not enough to protect a flat tappet cam. 10w30 is typically the lowest and sub-800ppm, 15w40 is marginal at around 1100, and 5w40 is a crap shoot and all over the place from 700-1200 depending on the brand and if it’s full or partial synthetic. Valvoline VR1 is easy to obtain and even with some reformulation and rebranding stands out as a great readily available choice. I’ve used it for almost 30 years and have not had any oil related failures with it. Beyond that I also use Driven or Brad Penn. Take a look at your cold start and hot oil pressures, if the cold pressure is over 60-70psi, drop the low number from 15w to 10w or even 5w. If the hot pressure is less than 20-25, raise the big number. Every engine is different, but this is how to get where you want to be. In the past, I’ve run 20w50 in small block Fords that has put the cold start pressure at 100psi, but for track days, anything lower viscosity would drop below 50psi at 6000rpm, and I’m looking for about 10psi per 1000rpm. For daily street use the same engine was very happy on 5w30. There is honestly a better selection of viscosity ranges now than ever before, so a little research, make sure the oil has a minimum of 1200+ppm of zinc, 1400-1600ppm is ideal, and dial in the viscosity to get the pressure where you want it.
Lake Speed also suggested not to go for diesel engine oil, only hot rod gasoline engine oil. His argument is that the higher detergent of diesel engine oil reduces the effect of ZDDP.
I break in many a year never lost 1 I use used ls springs brea in then switch to upgraded pac springs and run it with quality oil that's good for flat tappet. Also use break in rockers when applicable.
You should run the valve lash to spec. for break in, if you increase the lash, you will be breaking in the lobes and lifters in a different area. also, part of the lobe will get no break in.
We’re not talking a massive amount, .004-.006 loose will not hurt a thing, especially with iron heads. You’re talking a few degrees from the base circle onto the lobe at the most gentle transition on the cam. The break in is far more critical at higher lift numbers on the ramps and nose of the cam than the base circle or transition.
You might want to do a little more research, Delo and Rotella have been reformulated much like gasoline oils and all the oil formulations have seen a substantial reduction in the amount of ZDDP due to mandated catalyst and particulate filter requirements. I suggest Valvoline VR-1 or Driven oil products.
Lake Speed Jr has talked about the changes to diesel oils. They are not what they used to be. Ever since they aligned the diesel oils with the API SN automotive standard to make them cross compatible, the EP additive package became emissions friendly and key additive levels dropped.
Yes....oil is absolutely the issue. Even in the roller engines. Lifter failure happens, it just takes longer. The failures I have seen result in notches cut in the lifters in the shape of the lobe. Why? Because the lifters are not rotating. Why? Because the oil is so damn slick it's washing off the cam and when started the lifter doesn't get rotated by the cam. We have to use oil that is sticky. The sticky oil will allow that cam lobe to rotate the lifter. The super slick oil allows the lobe to wipe across the lifter but it's so slick that the lifter doesn't rotate. Additive additive additive. Spring pressure gets checked on the bench for every spring. 100 psi works fine. Make sure your lifter rotates at assembly and use sticky stuff in the oil. I can definitely see people using roller springs in a flat tappet motor because they just don't know.
It’s not that the oil is too slick, that’s not the issue. Roller lifter failure in current production OHV engines is predominately a result of extended oil change intervals. You can’t ask the oil to operate in the engine for more than triple the time we used to because the oil itself, regardless of the additive package, breaks down before the oil change happens. We didn’t have rolller lifter failures on 5.0L Fords or 5.0/5.7 Chevrolet V8s because we were changing the oil at 3000 mile intervals. Fresh clean oil is incredibly important, because the detergent package needs to be renewed to prevent the formation of carbon deposits in the engine that are a significant contributor to these modern failures. Put these OHV Ford, GM and Mopar V8 on a 3k OCI and watch the failure rates fall to pre-2000 levels.
@TheGT350Garage I can see that. Remember, the 5.0 roller motors were before the removal of all the good stuff in the oil. I never saw a factory 5.7 GM roller motor. The first roller motor I remember GM producing was the 5.3 LS. These had roller failures. Oil change interval is very important. We still see people complaining, shops included, about failure even during break in.
In the past 35 years, 75% of the small block Ford engines I’ve built have been hydraulic roller. I recommend changing the oil every 3,000 miles or an annual oil change every year once the weather warms up over 70°F daytime highs (that can be most of the year in SoCal, but here in Northern Utah that’s usually mid to late May, even early June. Quality filters are a must, Motorcraft FL-1A minimum, Wix or Napa Gold are also good. Quality oil with detergents, Valvoline VR1, Brad Penn, Driven, for non-synthetics, I’ve always had good results with Amsoil and Mobil 1 full synthetics. I don’t recommend changing oil or filter brands, the different additive packages can cause a cleaning even stripping effect and if the engine has been on conventional more than 25k or 3-5 years, I don’t recommend switching to a synthetic, because Amsoil for instance will literally wash the deposits off the interior surfaces of an engine, and where does all that go? Through the filter and to the cam and lifters (flat tappet or roller, this isn’t desirable). After the initial break in on a flat tappet engine, I also don’t recommend more than 1/4oz of ZDDP additive per quart up to a maximum dose of 2oz. I realize that is less than the ZDDP additives say to add, but a little is actually good enough to fortify the oil, a lot has been proven to be no more effective and too much can actually cause deposition on the lifters and cam that can lead to secondary wear and failure problems from the ZDDP itself. I’m old school on a lot of things, but I’m practical and I keep myself informed and up to date on what’s going on and changing within the industry because it’s my job as an automotive instructor to stay on top of this stuff.
@@TheGT350Garage 100% agree. I don't use any zinc additive but my brother Brian is committed. I drove my Audi TT from KC to Maine & back. It doesn't have a gage or anything but the beeper goes off randomly when you come off the highway and drive through town. I did an oil change before we left and substituted a quart of "tractor" oil. Alarm never went off. VW 1.8. Thanks for your contributions. Teach em right
I have both Hydraulic rollers and solid flat tappet cams from the same manufacturer...both cams cards are requiring 155 lbs and the seat, and 415 off seat! Crazy shit here!
What so often is not addressed is QC (Quality Control). In the end it is just as much a responsibility of parts suppliers to exercise QC Acceptance Inspection and testing as it is the manufacturer's responsibility. Failure to do acceptance QC whether the parts/materials are sourced from China or the USA invites unscrupulous practices by manufacturers or material suppliers. This is true here in US as well as abroad. In decades past materials and parts were ordered in large quantities and stocked for use over several months or even a year or more. Today's "just in time" inventory management has impacted QC Programs as overly costly and get reduced or eliminated completely. Why do GM's Delphi Lifters have excellent reputation? NOT because they are made in USA, but because GM's QC Acceptance program ensured it! GM could not afford recalling millions of engines because poor or non-existent QC allowed poor quality parts into their system. Years ago I worked in Aerospace Machining and QC started with Material delivery, manufacturing processes (at each step), Final pre-ship QC Inspection AND FINALLY acceptance QC checks by the customers including destructive testing. This final step is most important of all! So blame the cam suppliers if their cams / lifters fail - they did not do their job by holding vendors accountable through QC.
If only we all had the money to do destructive testing. Comparing aerospace to automotive isn’t quite a fair comparison. And the blanket assumption that QC is not in place is false, the cam manufacturers are testing the batches of cams and lifters, they check their finished products as well. We know some lifters are slipping into the marketplace with issues, that’s literally why I suggest grab a caliper, measure OAL at the center of the lifter and the edge. Easy to verify the taper is there. And GM’s Delphi roller lifters in the V8 are eating roller cams under warranty, I’m seeing more roller lifter failures than flat tappet failures as a result of extended oil change intervals. Maintenance and choice of lubricant are as important to all engines as the QC on the back end of parts manufacturing.
@@TheGT350Garage i was not meaning to negate all the good points you made in the video. They are all valid... but there is no magic involved. If design criteria is met (poor installation, break in procedures and proper lubrication aside) then there should not be any reason for increased failures in recent years that is not relative to poor assembly and break in procedures. There has always been inexperienced builders or "backyard Mechanics" doing cam installs. My experience tells me that QC if done will identify if there is an indemic materials or manufacturing problem. Many like to just blame Chinese manufacturing as the main problem, but having lived and worked in China I know they are just as capable as US providers and the opposite is true as well (just like US providers). I think you are right on mark with people using too heavy a spring when roller springs are so prominent. Cheers
In 30 years I only had one flat tap cam wipe out . Everything was done correctly I am also an oil nerd so all proper lube was used proper break in and set up spot on.. It had a few K miles on it and one lobe wiped flat motor full of metal. The only time I didn't use a big brand name came. I bought a " summit " traditional SBC cam . In the end who knows why. Replaced and never an issue again .
Summit is kind of like Costco, they private label a lot of parts from other manufacturers and you actually get decent parts under their brand. For camshafts, it used to be that Crane Cams was the biggest source of private label cams in the industry, and Summit was absolutely using them for private label cams. I know this from buying cams directly from Crane in plain white boxes by the pallet load from 2001-2006. It would be interesting to hear when you had the issue because Crane fell on hard times circa 2006 and folded in February of 2009. During that time they had some serious issues in terms of sourcing and producing cores because of the state of the industry, and they had known failures as a result. It affected the private label parts as much if not more than the Crane brand itself. If your failure was 2005 or before, it very well may have been a one-off issue. From 2006-2010 or so, it may have been a result of the issues at Crane, and after 2010, it’s possible the issue was teething issues with Summit’s later source for the cams.
@TheGT350Garage Great info. Thank you for the reply. Interestingly my failure was 2008. Summit at the time wouldn't tell me if there was any issues happening with their cams. I ended up putting an Edl performer cam in and had no further issue.
Edelbrock was a Crane customer as well, but they likely had more inventory to work from and may not have been experiencing the problems as soon as Summit. Every big name in the industry used Crane for private label to some extent prior to their demise.
I am building a 351w with a with a mechanical flat tappet cam as I dont want to deal with reduced base circle cams for retro lifters or tie bar lifters. Its a sub 400hp 351w as the truck only weighs 2400 with the 302 thats in it. Is there a particular spring and cam setup youd suggest? Its a stick street strip Ranger.
It depends a lot on what you’re running for carb, intake, heads and exhaust, and the compression ratio you’ll be running. I can give recommendations from Comp, Crower, and others, but I need more information.
I believe the problems with cam failures have several overlapping root causes. I have a background in heat treatment and metallurgy and have built many motors. The changes in oil makeup, cam lobe design with greater lift ramp angles, extreme spring pressure and the cam/lifter materials used. Contrary to some beliefs many of those name brands have cam blanks made in China with questionable material and even more questionable heat treatment. In addition when a cam lobe gets wiped out was it the lifter or the lobe. Lifters deserve some scrutiny as well. Tight lifter bores will prevent lifter rotation. I had a Comp Cams solid lifter cam go bad a few years ago in a BBC and I was extremely careful during the build and it created a mess. I would like to see a serious builder do some in depth testing of failed cams. To include actual material analysis down to the alloy contents and micro hardness testing of a lobe cross section. Or go roller and be done with the guess work.
Roller cam and lifter failures are a problem too (different reasons). At the manufacturer level, it’s extended oil change intervals wreaking havoc on the rollers, deposits preventing oil from getting into the rollers, oil shearing, etc. on the performance front, its lubrication and combination related. Really aggressive cams are just hard on parts. Crazy spring pressures are hard on parts. The pressure on the contact points in the lifter from the valve spring can exceed 50,000psi try being an oil molecule and not getting out of the way for that contact force.
@@TheGT350Garage ALL Cam lobes fail due to loss of material. Microscopic amounts of the lifter and lobe are removed and carried away by the lubrication every time they make contact with each other and this is when everything is working properly. The why a lobe fails quickly or prematurely deserves close examination by a skilled builder or similar results can be expected. If its lobe pressure thats at fault even when within Mfg spec its still a failure. If its the lube used even if provided by the Mfg well its still a failure. If modern flat tappet cams are so fragile that they need to be treated like a premature baby maybe thats a clue that they are not able to survive under the pressure and lubrication the average persons use. The long list of things you suggest to avoid a failure simply supports the argument of why they should be avoided. A quality Isky or Morrell roller lifter on a quality cam and good oil regularly changed and all should be welI for the moderate street / track build with no break in required. Those who have been meticulous building a motor and taken the precautions only to have it fail don't forget.
The way you make that statement is completely false. Blanket statements of “all” don’t work, and here’s why: I’ve maintained numerous flat tappet engines that have run past 500k miles in Ford F-150 fleet vehicles (4.9L I6, 5.0L & 5.8L V8s) so at the microscopic level, we’re talking about such a small number it’s inconsequential to say that normal wear is a slow play towards eventual failure. The key to those numbers was maintenance with the correct lubricant and quality filters at 3k oil change intervals. Several of those trucks were in service 12-15 years to reach those miles, running them 36-42k annually back in the 90s. In those engines, it was more common to have a valve spring fail than a cam lobe or lifter, we rarely had internal failures though. Flat tappet cams regularly outlast the valve job, head gaskets, or a wide array of peripheral components. And to that point, if you talk to any UPS mechanics who serviced the 300 Fords (older guys who worked there from the ‘70s through the early ‘00s), they regularly racked up over half a million miles with minimal issues with flat tappet cams. It’s not a design issue, the issues are application and user generated, as much as anything, and maintenance practices are a big player in the failures post break in.
@@TheGT350Garage I have never seen a cam lobe failure that didn't have a loss of material. So yes ALL/every lobe failure includes material loss. We can quote many examples of high mile service vehicles running solid cams. Heck many 5.9 Cummins have over 400 K on them. I thought this was a serious conversation about performance vehicles not delivery vans. You clearly wanted the debate & drama the moment you sent the video. Enjoy
You’re saying all failures are due to a loss of material. That is substantially NOT true. Loss of material happens due to incorrect application, too much spring pressure, lack of lubrication, incorrect hardness. Loss of material is not the cause, it’s the symptom. Your inability to correlate cause and effect is on you.
@TheGT350Garage That's right! I wonder how many cam failures are a result of this. I bleed test them all and will be blocking the filter bypass on my personal builds.
That and also people don't prime the engine enough either they just build up oil pressure on a gauge and call it good on my Chevy engines I prime it till I have oil coming out of each push rod no matter how many times I have to rotate the engine you can hear it on a lot of these startup videos The lifter beating the s*** out of the cam hey friends
People have forgotten how to break these things in. You can't just slap a new hydraulic camshaft in and boom you're done. Valve spring pressure is critical. Pull your inner springs out for break in.
groove lifter bores so oil sprays on the cam lobe. Comp cams sells a tool for this. old pushrod flat tappy engines always had shitty oiling to the lifters splash oiling just isn't that great. Also you can avoid low quality lifter problems if you just send your old flat tappet lifters in to get refaced there are companies that will do it. Also yes high spring pressure isn't helping either.
Grooving the lifter bores needs to be done carefully, and they need to be honed after grooving to ensure there are no high edges along the groove that could prevent the lifter from rotating freely.
The only issue with social media is that people are gullible and believe things from supposedly reputable sources without verifying the validity of the claims. The cam and lifter failures are not because the parts are all coming from China, but mostly a result of people taking really bad advice and trying to build an engine combination for the first time using badly matched parts.
Yeah I don't get it as we haven't lost any Flat Tappets either ? touch wood I guess ? We deal strictly with a Lifter Manufacturer.... we check Lobe Taper and Lifter Crown.... no problems so far ?
I genuinely believe a lot of the failures are self inflicted. It takes literally 15 minutes to precisely check every lobe on a cam and every lifter in a box and you don’t need a fancy crown gauge or any high end tools to verify them, a simple digital caliper will do nicely. Using the proper assembly lube, not too much, not too little, a good break in oil with a decent filter, and having proper technique for starting up and breaking in a cam and lifters takes minimal effort. Honestly the hardest part is understanding the valve spring pressure needs for the cam profile and valvetrain as a whole, and that is still not that hard to figure out, but definitely requires a higher understanding of the physics involved.
@TheGT350Garage so I'm wanting to run a comp cams 268h and it recommends a 110lbs install pressure. Should I go with what they recommend or run lighter?
@davidsager3343 so it depends on the engine you’re running. Here’s some insight into your question even if it’s not your exact situation: For a 289/302 Ford, with a 1.78/1.48 valve package and 1.6 rockers, Comp recommended springs for the 268H are 942-16 for that cam, 115 on the seat at 1.7” and a 339lb rate that nets 270lbs at .456 lift. If you use that spring, you would have to install it at 1.715” to get 110 and that drops the open pressure to 265, the rate does not change. A big block Ford 429/460, is a different deal all together. Same lobe profile 268H, Comp recommends a 940-16 spring that runs 93lbs on the seat at 1.9” and has a 241lb rate for just 212lbs open. This is spot on for this combination, maybe a bit on the low side even. On a big block, the rocker ratio is a much higher 1.73:1, so it applies more force to the lifter, but the valves are all drastically heavier and require more pressure to prevent valve float, I would be inclined to run 90-100lb seat pressure with a 280-300lb rate to control the increased valvetrain mass netting open pressure in the range of 228-248lbs, which are still quite reasonable. The wild variations in rate, seat pressure and open pressures are why I’m so adamant that the recommended spring pressures are a major contributor to killing cams. Going back to the small block, I’d run 85-95 on the seat and shoot for a spring rate in the 260-280lb range to get an open pressure of 203-223 due to the lighter valves because that is a small-ish cam lobe profile that really won’t make power past 5400-5800rpm in a typical mild small block. The same profile will lay down at about 4600-5000rpm in the big block, which is why the springs don’t have to be monstrous.
@rickyfulks6656 NASCAR is a whole different level. You’re talking about cam profiles that are trying to extract every bit of power from a particular engine combination for a particular purpose. Valve lift is in the .700-.800 range, duration is 260-280 @ .050”, the RPM gets up past 8000, and that’s a full on race application. Failures there can be expected. A street engine with less than 235° @ .050” and less than .560-.580” valve lift should still be viable in most cases. Verify the crown and taper, run the right springs, use the right assembly lube, and break it in correctly and I find there simply isn’t the issue others are having.
I don’t use the recommended springs these days, I also don’t use monster springs. If an engine needs a cam with much more than 235-240°@.050” or so of duration, I also don’t use flat tappet cams very often any more. There’s too much power to be had by going hydraulic or solid roller above 235-240° Of duration to give up for a couple hundred dollars more in parts. Under about 235-240°, and under .550-.575” lift or so, flat tappet cams perform really well. Spring pressure needs to be carefully considered though, and if you’re running into a need for dual springs on a flat tappet, it’s probably time to go roller.
35 years in the engine business many race wins and championship motor go through our shop.and this year tops it all. We have had 9 flat tappet motors go flat . They have had break in springs installed with 100 lb seat and 260 open with Amsoil BR oil in them an had approximately three to four sessions of run time as long as one hour. Bring them in change to the race spring and a race or two then one or two lobes go flat. 2024 has been a night mirror. Insiders at Howard's and Comp Cams have told me most every lifter is now a product of China. I was able to get a set of EDM solid lifters from Crower a week or so ago where they claimed they were USA made lifters. Will see how this goes. Until this is fixed we are trying to stay away from solids until something changes. Problem now is lots of what we do are flat tappet class built that require the flat tappet stuff. Hope the Camshaft Lifter manufactures get there act together soon for the sake of staying in business.We have had Ford 351 style motors running seventy six hundred RPM ten years back in the Texas Super Racing Series that had 160 seat 390 open flat tappet cams that still holds the track record at track here in Texas. Another 363 flat tappet Ford in a dirt limited late model that worst finish was second until they changer rules. Something in the flat tappet world changed for sure. 🤔
100% brother, my uncle has been building engines for 40 years. He owns an old toyota townace van that has gm flat tappet cams and the van has an absolute heap of miles on it. He uses the cheapest oil you can find, most of the time its different weights and even used chain lube and the van just keeps going and going. Goes to show, the industry is not lying, something is not right, the cores are rubbish all round…. Probably bad batches from China. Nice money making excercise for the industry.
I've bought hundreds of cams from Delta Cam in Tacoma Washington over the years.
Not one of them has gone flat.
Try them.
I can say with 100% certainty materials sourced from China are inferior. I worked in the heat treating industry for many years and we would regularly investigate cases where parts failed or didn't respond within spec to heat treatment. We would do a analysis of the material and it would be deficient in the content of a variety of metals like nickel, chromium, and molybdenum. Chinese manufactures would intentionally reduce these elements as a cost savings and improperly label a material knowing its out of spec. Until I see a qualified lab do a XRF and microhardness testing of cams and lifter to prove otherwise I will suspect China is selling us garbage along with the blue pills killing half the country.
This is the craziest thing back in the day when i really had no idea what i was doing i did several backyard builds with a mixture of new and used parts and never had a cam failure and now its common place.
We’ve all done that “slap it together” junk
engine at some point, it’s shocking how long they seem to last. But if you tried using mixed up parts at a much higher performance level, it fails much sooner.
@@TheGT350Garage just saying something is a miss when you have to go through all these checks and procedures and still have failures, and I have never even went through the breakin period just assemble throw it in the car and drive it to work 80 miles away and no problems.
Excellent video on all points. The most important point in this video for me is what I've been saying for several years now. Cam manufacturers recommended spring pressure has gone up over the years and kills FT cams. When you tear down a factory roller engine and it has less valve spring than your new flat tappet there's a problem. If your looking for high rpm valve control at least break it in with less valve spring pressure.
I bought 4 sets of lifter. 2 sbc and 2 sbf. Sent them to Powell Machine before he sold his grinder and 63 of them were out of spec. When he has the gatorman lifters there is very little savings in going flat tappet now. I agree with your valve spring diagnosis though. Years ago I’d run a lighter spring to break them in and switch them after break in. When a Sbf hydraulic flat tappet set is $500 may as well buy a $300 trick flow cam and a $375 set of lifters from Powell or the rebranded model Engine Tex’s for $200 for a sbc and. $270 summit cam.
Excellent video. I am an amateur home mechanic. I used to be scared to death about firing up new flat tappet motors because of the recent horror stories. I have recently fired up two freshly rebuilt Mopar engines, a 440 and 318 with aftermarket mild flat tappet cams. I performed ALL the steps you listed above, including a "lifter drop" test to make sure they fall smoothly into the bores. Although I've read break-in instructions saying 20 minutes, I always go 25 to 30. I break-in hovering around the 2,500rpm range. I also take the time, effort, and hassle to break in the cams on the factory springs. I don't install the stronger springs until after the break in period. It's a lot of extra work, especially when it's in the car, but so far I haven't had any failures. Here's the one thing I didn't hear you mention. I vary the rpm every so often to try to help any lifter having a problem rotating. I try to induce, and remove a "load" by doing this, hoping to free up any stuck ones. Here is what I've seen from other failures on TH-cam. I've watched some of my favorite Mopar channels fire up a new engine or cam and wipe out lobes and lifters. The common denominator? They all WALK AWAY from the engine. They fire it up, screw in the idle speed screw to 2,500rpm and literally walk away, coming back 20 minutes later. I don't understand why after spending all that money and time, they can't "babysit" the motor for 25 minutes to vary the rpm.
I’m big on babysitting the engine, I do vary the RPM a little, but not much. Changing the load on the engine is really more for the piston rings than the valvetrain. The valvetrain will behave predictably the same at steady state, but under acceleration and deceleration it’s so similar, it’s kind of a placebo to think it has any real benefit to the break in.
I agree with you.
Thank you man for this valuable information, bad luck that I couldn't watch this video before, I'll be honest, I had a failure in 2 compcams, one on a 351w and the other with a 460. I'll talk about the 351w, it had 90lbs beehive springs, ok I put zddp additive in the oil, I lubricated the cam with an assembly lucas thinking it was the right one, I primed the engine before starting, it started quickly, I maintained rpm 2000 for 20 min, exactly as you said in that short period of time the problem came to light, I started to hear a tick tick tick in a lifter... when I disassembled the engine again the cam came out with 1 lobe and 1 lifter completely damaged, what seemed strange to me was that none of the 15 lobes or the 15 lifters had any signs of failure.
Good point about the spring-pressures, when I was checking to see if the springs on my AFR heads were right for the cam, comp's web-site listed of a page of "compatible" springs that varied wildly in pressures! Its been decades since I used a flat-tappet cam but it was a comp cam and I didn't do anything special, I slapped some cam-lube on and ran it for 20 minutes at 2000 rpm. I had the motor apart 10 years later and the wear-pattern looked great. This was almost 25 years ago though and sadly I have seen a few alarming quality-control issues from Comp (recently a whole box of hydraulic lifters with all the retaining rings fallen out before I even removed them from the box!).
Ultimately, the responsibility to verify the parts are correct for the application and meet the standard of quality required falls on the end user. In the automotive industry, that was always the mechanic performing the job. Sadly, those skills are being lost because the industry has moved away from repair of a sub assembly to straight replacement. I would love to teach my students far more about engine repair, but manufacturers only want them to be able to diagnose a failure and replace an assembly, it limits warranty claims and comebacks, but robs the technicians of these traditional skills.
Great video. This takes away some of the anxiety on my present build.
Measure the lobes and look for .0025-.0040” (2-1/2 to 4 thousandths) of taper and lifter crowns for .0010-.0025” (1 to 2-1/2 thousandths) of crown. If you’re in those ranges the parts are machined correctly. Use a good lube like Isky Rev Lube, and be thorough and precise when adjusting the rockers and priming. Have the ignition timing dialed in and pre-fill the carb for the best success.
Great info, thanks for taking the time to make this video!
Powell machine definitely said the lifters are the problem, not being ground correctly. Also i talk to a local engine builder, he said he only used assembly grease, not one failure
Awesome video GT. All good information and well presented. Congratulations. AG
Another great video, love the idea on lash adjustment / prime and rotate. Yes have the timing set and if using a carb fill it first.
THANK YOU!!!! I've never had a cam wipe either.....I've been using Isky Rev Lube for years!!!!....u validated my methods with pin point accuracy!!....I've never even worried about springs, but now ya got me thinkin.....building a 400 Pontiac, Kauffman Racing heads.....dual spring w/damper.....I mite just remove the inner spring.....but i haven't had to b4, and this is my 3rd go 'round with a set of Kauffman heads......(they BLOW E-heads away).....all my cams have been hyd or solid FLAT tappet, and ALL have been happy......just wondering if I shud remove the inner this time around......I know the spring, its the same one for all 3 sets of heads......never had an issue.....TY for a super concise, well explained vid......I'm now a sub'r, as I'm a HUGE Powell Machine/Weingartner fan, and have been for YEARS, not just recently.....TY sir, PEACE to you!!
Thank you for a great discussion.
I have assembled and tested over 10000 engines in the past 35 years. Intial problems started with one manufacturer. Since, many have shifted to the same producers. All have bit it with the lifters.
If you are not having issues, you are lucky. That simple. The stock piles of cams still remaining from 30 yrs ago, work fine. Those produced for comp,jegs,summit,speedway all had issues.
The high demand profiles for middle performance power plants are scary. No issues with cams in direct replacement levels. As soon as you start increasing to lifts of .500. Or 235° duration. Your springs can't be used for break-in!
If you are not checking the lifters...you will have issues. 6 out of 10 times flat tappets fail with bigger cams. 9 out of 10 times, it's the lifter that fails. This is not just in flat tappet. Hydrolic rollers are seeing the same issues. That debunks your break in procedure, or oil debate. From 2000- 2015, it was the highest selling models that failed. Smaller or less know cam distributors were still working with cams produced before 2000. Now in 2024, most of the flat tappet cams have been worked through and higher quality is being demanded from the cam cores themselves. Lifter are also improving. It was the reports from shops, distributors, and utube personalities that got it changed.
For any build. Break in with a standard spring. Use assembly grease, NOT just high zinc oil. Hold at 2000 rpm immediately. At any moment it starts to alter timing. Yank the cam! Repeat the break in 3 times before installing final springs. Hold the engine at full temp for 20 minutes for each break in.
You will find the problems in that time if there is any. Best to have a reputable shop do the break in. They have more negotiating power when the cam wipes out and destroys everything else. If you are not a shop with that ability. Solid tappet or roller is the only way to go.
If you are working with a block from 50 years ago or from the junk yard. Have the lifter bores inspected. Most used blocks are worn out.
You are one of few who haven't had the problem. Avoid all cams and lifters produced from 2000-2015. Especially those from comp,lunati, or the mainstream parts suppliers.
You need to look deeper in the comments, I’m far from one of a few not having problems, and most of use are doing things exactly the same way. Those of us not having failures aren’t pointing fingers at the far east, we’re methodical and taking a proactive approach of verifying the machining, then applying long established practices. In a high productivity shop working on anything and everything, time is money, machinists and engine builders get complacent, they turn on the “I’ve been doing this for DECADES” mentality and little steps get overlooked.
The second gen hemi is notoriously hard on cams and lifters where wear is concerned. They required heavy springs to deal with the rocker assembly and the cam specs. Still, they werent going around puking cams like now. They were getting proper break-in. They had more appreciable wear at 30,000 miles than non-hemis. I don't doubt there's been some industrial sabotage. As we have seen recently, as voices rise in opposition, a bad rep blossoms. If enough noise gets made, the group generally moves to something else, in this case roller cams instead of doing the work to break the flat cam in properly.
The actual physical location of the lobes on the core is also an issue- the lobe C/L needs to be .030" behind the lifter bore C/L.
Lifter to bore clearance for rotation speed is critical
Not exactly, because the tapers are ground onto the lobes opposing each other to limit thrust from the taper trying to push the cam out of the block.
@@TheGT350Garage The physical contact patch is in the same orientation relative to each bank
I agree spring pressure is #1 , so many want to run aftermarket heads with stiffer springs but at some point something has to give up the ghost and the lifter bottoms take the brunt of it .
Some “Volunteer State” big CC cam company employee ground a bunch of flat tappet cams with no lobe taper on them years ago from what I’ve been told….No lobe taper….no lifter rotation! I agree on many people running to stiff of a spring rate. I’d rather pay the $$$ for lightweight valves than for expensive lifters. I built a Chevy 1970 LT-1 370HP motor with a Bullet Cam (Ultradyne lobes) in 2012 and that car is still running strong (high 12 second 1/4mile times in full street trim) That LT-1 is approaching 30,000 miles of service….Has 5/16” valves beehive springs & tool steel retainers….Good basic hardware….Oh! Lifters are old AC Delco “585” edge orifice OEM lifters that were reground to 100” Radiuus by Rocker Arm Specialties in Northen California….thats right! Re-used some lifters after they were properly refaced….Those AC Delco have a Stellite base on them….great stuff!
So, it’s worth the money to use good parts like lighter valves and better quality/design springs. There’s no downside either way. Refacing known good lifters is fine as well, honestly “if it ain’t broke” don’t fix it. As long as the cost to reface a set of lifters remains less than new lifters, using a known good part is probably ideal. Refacing will have a minimal change on the valve adjustment or pushrod length, not enough to require a different pushrod. With the taper and crown issue being a known concern, it just needs to be verified on every lobe and every lifter by the installer.
Seat pressure controls the valve, open pressure controls the lifter... the trend to higher spring pressures have been a problem in the solid roller world for over a decade as well.
Nice video, I definitely think it’s the spring pressure. I had one fail on me in 2005, the oil debacle wasn’t well known at that time and the spring pressure was higher for solid flat tappet camshaft.
Don't be ignorant. Certain manufacturers from China quit putting taper on the lobe and a crown on the lifter. Engine shop i work for, has a indicator jig that shows lifter crown. Those that fail have no crown, and no taper on lobe, so on start up the lifter won't spin and will wear to damage in just a couple minutes. If you were more observant or not so ignorant you would know this. Cam companies that were good for decades suddenly was not, China sourced parts were the problem.
They realized that no one on the receiver's end was going to do QC and reject their deliveries. So they quit doing the expensive work and pocketed the difference. You _can_ get quality work from China, but you have to pay for it and continue to verify the product meets design specs.
Ignorant? What does your claim of “Certain manufacturers” accomplish without calling them out? You clearly came here to complain but not to help. If you build engines and don’t share the manufacturers you’re having problems with, you’re not helping anyone. But you seem to enjoy sharing an otherwise useless opinion.
Exactly! The taper is not there people keep wanting to say it’s the metal it is not the softness of metal or the oil. It is the taper and crown
@markhudson8007 if you don’t have the basic measuring skills to determine if taper and crown are present you probably shouldn’t be building an engine.
@@TheGT350Garage
It's possible that you're both right - spring pressue and lack of proper machining - both issues may be in play at the same time.
This guys awesome I've learned a few things from the 3 videos ove watched of his
That was the best video I have seen on this topic over the last years, period. Thank you very much for your advice and your recommendations. Now I am confident again for installing a cam in the future 😊
I agree with most everything said here. Well, I'll rephrase that. I agree with all of this, although I don't do everything said here.
Personally, since the early 80s, I use either the entire tub of cam assembly lube or 3 of the 'envelopes'. I goop that stuff all over the cam and lifters. People have told me that I waste it but it isn't a waste. The stuff readily dissolves in the oil and then the Moly and such is sprayed on the cam through the break in. I run the motor for 45+ minutes varying the RPMs between 1900-2750 the entire time. I personally believe 30 minutes to be about the very bare minimum. I have run a number of brands of camshafts with my favorite being Comp Cams. Their assembly lube came with the best directions and it used to say(early 80s) to run the cam 30-45 minutes. I agree and always have (BTW: I have installed/ran a bunch of cams (probably 25-30) all but 3 were flat tappet and I have had 0 cam failures)(I did have one lifter failure but that was a used factory hydraulic roller that had an internal plunger collapse(I'm going to blame the springs on that one!).
I think that the big failure rates are improper assembly, lube and procedures. I have seen a TH-cam video with some jackass putting white lithium grease on the cam/lifters and pretending that was some kind of assembly lube! That was pathetic!
The best advice I have is the gray/black assembly lube from Comp Cams, use the entire tub n of it, RPMs at or above 1900-2600 for 45 minutes and if in any doubt...Watch some TH-cam videos of cam/engine installs that have a bald or gray haired engine builder! The older Cat has most of his experience with flat lifters designs.
Oh, one more thing don't put a bunch of additives in the oil. Assembly lube is fine. I have watched Richard Pettys family and employees add STP to engines being installed in the pits(and I've used the STP myself) but don't put things like Slick 50 or any of these wear preventing additives, in the crankcase. If they work, they are trying to prevent the wear that is needed to wear the cam and lifters in together.
I hope this info helps someone who hasn't installed flat tappet Cams before now.
Yall Take care and I enjoyed the video. Good info and very nicely done.
Excellent tutorial. Never use a windage tray when breaking in your cam.
You’re still going to sling oil off the rods onto the cam even with a windage tray, you’re just . The windage tray is as much to keep oil in the pan as to pull it off the crank, I’ve found windage trays are more important in cars that see higher cornering loads and crank scrapers are more beneficial for drag racing. I’m running both a gated T-sump 9-quart pan with a windage tray and I have no concerns but I’m also running a roller cam.
Great video share. We do need to verify the quality of the parts we are using.
Its part of the assembly process to check everything. I did recently watch a Yt video where the senior engineer of a major cam company was laughing joking about flat tappet cams being a thing of the past and people need to get with the program. Scratch that Comp cams company from the list of eligible candidates...
Most' of the flat tappet failures out there are a cause of poor preparation of a build.
The 1st thing i do with a block that will be using the factory lifter bores before any machining starts is check the lifter bores for clearance with the lifter i will use or at least with a known test lifter (wether its getting flat tappet or roller). Several times doing this i have picked up excess clearance, burrs, scuffing at the bottom from a previously damaged lifter etc.
Then, for guys that dont fit their own cam bearings, when you get your block back check that the shop has not burred the bottom edge of the lifter bores by carelessly using the cam bearing installation tool. I always used to get blocks back with small dings at the bottom of the lifter bores that i know were not there previously prior to doing this operation myself.
Deburr your lifter bores if required.
A 'very' light hone to cleanup the surface is not a bad thing, dont go crazy.
After final cleaning of the block again the 1st operation while acess is easy is to pass a lifter thru every bore, ensure it passes thru with absolutely no catching or resistance at all, if it does, fix the problem or thay lifter is failing. (Goes for roller lifter also)
Next the cam goes in to test lobe offset, ensure that every(flat tappet) lobe is slightly off center to the lifter bore, if a lobe is centered, it will fail.
Use quality parts!
Do not use a prelube that dissolves in oil!
You want a moderate coat of 3% Moly grease on every lobe and on every lifter 'base', not the lifter body only engine oil on the body. No this will not block any oil filter, cut the filter after break in, you will see little lumps of the moly grease but the filter is not blocked. The reason for moly grease is that it will not dissolve and drop off as soon as oil splash hits it(use dissolving lube on a test cam, then pour engine oil over it and watch how quickly it begins to dissapear), the moly provides an excellent film to get started, any excess moly pushes to the lobes edge and as the engine runs you have a small 'reserce supply' of moly that can acess the lifter base as it is throw off via centrifugal force, only some of it gets the lifter but it all helps to stop any scuffing early on. No part of the valvetrain must bind, lack clearance for lift etc.
Dont be lazy, use lighter springs for as long as possible, take inner springs out , buy light springs that can take the lift etc. If the customer is ok with it I have them leave light springs in for 500 to 1000km, just keep the rpm in check. If its not practical then so be it but 30 to 40 mins of light spring use is a 'must'.
Change oil and filter after 30 to 40 mins.
Dont use any of the cr@p additives! Get the correct oil from the beginning. Mineral or synthetic, low Detergent and moderate zddp, 1200ppm to 1800ppm is where you want to be.
If its a solid flat tappet, ask your cam co what the tightest allowance on lash is, use this at 1st break in so that break in includes ever area of the open/close ramps that are ever likely to be used under full spring load.
Prime your oiling system wherever possible.
After lifters are under valvetrain load, do not turn the engine prior to start up any more than absolutely necessary for fittment.
Set everything so the engine runs immediately on startup, use a known carb that was working thay day not 3 months ago, test for spark or use a known dissy, put a point dissy in for , whatever you know will work immediately.
I could go on 🤣 **
I agree 100%. I've never had a failure either, in the same amount of years as you've stated. The main issue is oil and spring pressures, as you stated. Like you mentioned, I run springs around 70-80 lbs on the seat and around 200 or so open for break-in, and I use Valvoline VR-1 in everything I build, but especially flat tappet engines... Last summer though, I did have my first failure. But it took over a year and 1500 miles of driving. But it did what I have never seen in my life. EVERY lifter went bad. ALL 16 of them. They were Crower Cool-Face, EDM style lifters.... Have you heard of or seen anything like this before?
An across the board failure after than long would be either a break down or contamination in the oil, a change in the available lubricant volume to the cam and lifters. Unlikely to be a mechanical cause or springs because the chance that 16 springs failed the same way is astronomically high, like winning the lottery odds.
Only cam failure I have had was 37 years ago and a Crane, they stood behind it and replaced it.
That long ago, it was usually an actual parts problem. These days it’s more a knowledge issue.
@ may have been, may not. That motor did not fire right up, and I could have caused it. Crane took the cam back, with a copy of the speed shop receipt, showing it was bought with springs, and stood behind it. I made sure it fired right up round 2. I never really knew the cause, but credit crane with standing behind it.
Crane was a great company to deal with until they started running into financial issues in the early 2000s.
You mention Powell and he has a video about the crown of the lifter not being correct!
But it’s not every lifter, and there isn’t one “correct” spec for lifter crown that goes for all makes and models of engine. I give him a pass on that because he’s being overly cautious on that point.
Absolutely Spot on advice and very pertinent and accurate information !!
This is our experience to a tee!
We have a test stand so our initial startup happens basically instantly as soon as we hit the start but!
Engine is fully lubed prior to start
Timing is verified with dampener and rotor position!
Carb is filled and verified by pressure that it’s not blowing over the floats and flooding the motor!!!
High moly lube paste is applied to cam and lifters!
On non adjustable FE rockers, we ensure proper pushrod depression in lifter at one cylinder and the we assemble the whole set of rocker assemblies without ROTATING THE MOTOR!
On adjustable, we use TDC positioning which will only be about .004 larger of lash as of setting by lobe position!
ABSOLUTELY DO NOT ROTATE THE MOTOR BY MORE THEN 2 turns which is one full rotation on the camshaft. After break-in, you can then go over the rocker lash adjustment by the lobe method to get them totally dialed in to the proper lash, a few thousands extra lash will not have any adverse effect on cam/lifter break-in!
We will add cleanliness as any foreign metal or sand debris that might find its way onto the can lobe or lifter 0:45 face during assembly can be ground into the lobe and you would not be able to see it or really feel it due to the heavy moly lube paste?
BE VERY CKEAN AND WORK IN A VERY SANITARY ASSEMBKY AREA OR BETTER YET, ASSEMBLY ROOM!
Motor cannot crank over more than 2-4 maximum turns before engine start or you have removed all lubrication from the cam & lifters and now are grinding a rough surface that will lead to cam failure!!!! That’s about 2-3 seconds or starter engagement!
After that, take the intake and lifters out, and relube the can lobes and lifters with a brush and try it again!
Over our 24 years in business, we have lost only I cam lobe on one camshaft out of hundreds of startup and breakin runs on flat tappet camshafts!
Absolutely 100% agree that a clean work area is crucial and may be a contributing factor no one is considering. I’ll add that wearing gloves and changing them if you are handling parts that have assembly and break in lube on them to keep your hands clean, or just wash your hands regularly, goes a long way to prevent contaminants.
Back in the day I used to break in the cams with double springs n moly lube n there were no problems. If the cam n lifter hardness specs out then what happened?
I agree with your outlook. Oils are not worse, they have gotton better. Same with the camshafts & materials or even machining. We havnt lost technology, we have gained. We have better everything. More precise, less labor invested for better product. I could possibly believe a quality control decrease? Only becouse cams have changed with the times & i believe most of the money & effort & attention ia probably focused on what is to date. And to date is roller cams, not flat tappet. All cars today are built with roller cams. I dont think any are made with flat tappet? So it coukd be a case of a company keeping a line going or a shop going simply for a small group of people in sociaty that still hold on to what was the past for dear life. The chiefs at such a company might see this shop as not worth it & just a pain in the ass! I can hear them complaining about just even keeping the lights on!!?? Lol! And hence a push toward only making roller cams now??
Now myself also have never had a cam failure & all ive ever used have been flat tappet cams. I think of that stat being true for me, & i think about what i know about when it comes to the mindset of the average American male mechanic of today & im sure they truly beleive they did not make a mistake & did a perfect break in! But anybody that has ever told you about how good they are at their job, you should follow them around for a day & compare what you see to how they describe themselves. To listen to them it makes me wonder how myself & this person have ended up working in the same place?? Why are they not with Nasa???
But also, a look into my past & almost any event one might see can show a definite trend that would suggest im not just getting lucky. If im successful it might mean im doing somthing right??
Hi Walter, May I request that film your reassembly process of your 289. Not sure how many videos you could get out of it. Many of us will be glued to our smartphones.
I’ve been off work for a couple weeks, took a vacation, and have just burned through some much needed down time. I’ll be filming more this week and plan to get a video out weekly at least. The engine build is my primary goal for the next phase of the car. From there I have more things in the works, and the build should start to move forward nicely here soon. I’ll be posting step by step the build.
I have a solid flat tappet in a 289 and use modern oil it’s fine . Bought 3 solid flat tappet for bbc wiped out all 3 not one lifter all the lifter dead in 5 minutes of run time . Video taped it for cam company. They keep replacing for free . Give it a think ! The cam and lifters are bad
Three cam/lifter failures in the same engine, and you identify the cam and lifters as the problem, but if you put it together all three times using the same springs, same assembly lube and using the same startup procedures, you are ignoring major potential contributors to the repeat failure.
@ forgot to mention the same big name cam company
You can put the same cam and lifters in two identical short blocks and use two different sets of heads only to have one cam be fine and the other to fail. Unless you’re verifying the valve spring retainer doesn’t contact the seal, that the springs are at the correct seat and open pressures, and ensuring the critical factors of the build are all correct, it’s completely unfair to say that a “Brand X” cam and lifters in a 289 Ford worked fine but their BBC cam and lifters were junk.
We always used a non detergent oil with GM EOS, i see guys on line adding zink to oils not designed for it or claiming you cant have to much... try baking a cake with mentality for ingredients or watch Lake Speeds video about the wear caused by to much zink/phosphorus.
I’ve thought about switching to a hyd roller on my built FE. But doubt I ever will end up going that route.
Why all of a sudden are mechanics who have decades of experience building engines with flat tappet cams saying there is a problem?
Because when you do something long enough, you get complacent and fall into bad habits.
From what I can gather, its not really materials on the bulk of failures. Sometimes its grind of lobe or lifter, sometimes its the oil. And sometimes, the block is clapped out: sloppy lifter bores find rotation problems. A dingleball hone on 30+ year old iron? That makes me nervous. I must admit this: oil is the most complex thing in our engines, and API specs [as found on containers when purchased] convey less than 10% of the information that matters. And the more I dig, the more it seems break-in time must be capped - never extended. Ford? Maximum run in of 10 minutes back in the day [I think they shaved it to 8]. Maybe that's worth looking at, and maybe... the SM spec was a disaster without a news story. Notice the detergent package for SP was pulled back.
The average shop can’t test metallurgy or hardness. But they can check machining accuracy. And to a greater extent, so can most home builders with as little as a $30 digital caliper.
A small wheel cylinder hone for the lifter bores can make all the difference, a small ball hone will also work. If a block significant wear in the lifter bores, the can be bushed and honed to size to restore an otherwise serviceable block, and this is especially true in restoration of cars like Shelby Mustangs where the original block has a VIN stamping.
Oil is easy, don’t buy any oil for a modern engine, including so-called high mileage oils. Stick to Valvoline VR-1, Driven, Brad Penn, Amsoil Hot Rod oil, or any other quality oil formulated specifically for older engine designs using flat tappet engines, and as I’ve mentioned elsewhere in the comments, diesel oils are no longer broadly suitable for flat tappet use, you have to do extensive research on what is currently in the bottle to be sure it will work.
Look at Lake Speed Jr's Motor Oil Geek Channel, he has a really good video called (more zinc= more wear?). Basically he says 1. ZDDP helps to a point, then it starts to hurt, 2. no oil is best for every situation, I guess we need to guess and check? I think I heard him say somewhere the interaction between newer oil and gasoline packages are hurting solid cams somehow. Anyway, it's the lubrication and Lake Speed Jr knows. (or at least more than just 'throw more zinc at it')
It’s not the lubrication ‘if’ you’re using the correct oil formulation for an engine with a flat tappet or direct acting mechanical bucket cam. Engines like the Mercedes AMG W156 (direct acting mechanical buckets in a 7500rpm 6.2L DOHC V8) have cam and lifter failures due to the lack or EP additives since Mobil 1 reformulated their European 0w40 and 5w40 oils (which were viable in muscle cars up to about 2010 or so. Use the correct oil.
I use driven breaking oil , driven hot rod oil and driven assembly lube and I've had good luck I don't use racing oil or diesel oil because my application is neither , oil has anti-wear and extreme pressure additives and zinc is heat activated so i imagine breaking oil zinc comes into lower temperature when it comes in it leaves a hard candy coating on the lobes which is beneficial for dry starts or low oil situations so like you said it's important to get the oil splashing on the cam so the other additives like boron can do their job not all zinc is created equal either there's different formulations for different oils so just because a oil has a lot of zinc doesn't mean it's any good for your application other than GM EOS its hard to know about any of the other zinc additives other than claims which a proper break and oil is all you should need anyways . Great video thanks for putting it out
Something that's always made me scratch my head is back in the day MSD came out with the soft touch rev control saying it progressively gently cuts ignition to certain holes until RPMs stopped climbing vs a violent complete ignition cut off on off on and it seems now the standard is violent compleat cutting the ignition on of on off on both low and high rpm limiters... Have we gone backwards in technology or something? When I see an engine on a 2 step in neutral popping bucking and banging spitting fire on the launch limiter I can't help but think yikes that can't be good for anything in that rotating assembly timing gears bearings wrist pins pistons, it has to be causing a th rotating assembly to have a backlash event inside from load unload load unload, but man apparently it looks sooo cool it's worth the engine wear it's causing I guess... It wouldn't be anywhere as cool just climbing and then just smoothly calmly stop climbing once reaching a set rpm. I dunno maybe I'm wrong because with modern turbo engines now making insane power climbing so fast a soft touch doesn't react quick enough and allow it to overshoot the selected rpm? Just seem like it's really hard on the engine. It always seems like the little turbo imports are popping and farting the entire way down the track and that doesn't seem like it would be the most efficient way to run for max acceleration? It just seems like it's shifting so quickly it's popping almost non-stop the whole way 1 second of clean and pop pop another second and pop pop. I guess they must be accelerating quickly if it need to shift that fast.
I’m not going to claim I understand every ignition company’s rev limiters but most are of the soft touch variety. The OEM stuff is all done with fuel limiting and now electronic throttle control, it’s not quite a soft limit. On our Macan Turbo, the limiter is not brutal at all, in fact it’s quite gentle, but Porsche does some things differently, if not better than most other OEMs, and that little car is freakishly fast on the launch control, it sounds like a 2-step/line lock car at a drag strip. I’ve become a fan of the Pertronix Digital HP ignition, its limiter is gentle like the MSD Soft-Touch, but the adjustability of the unit and ignition’s performance for its size are undeniably excellent. I simply haven’t had reason to try the new MSD Digital 6AL-2 or whatever they call it. I would like to experiment with one using a programmable ignition curve. To your point of the limiter being hard on the rotating assembly, yes, I think a harsh limiter can induce unwanted stress on the rotating assembly and also the engine block itself. But this is why racing is expensive and we’ve always said if you want to play, be prepared to pay.
What type of oil do you use for every day driving on 383 sbc with a 204/214 duration 420/444 lift flat tappet cam?
Been using 15w40 Mobil Delvac in it for first break-in and 2000 miles??
Its a Erson cam by the way
I have to caution against using diesel oils with flat tappet cams. Others have talked about this in these comments and the reality is that many if not most diesel oils have had the zinc and phosphorous levels reduced drastically to protect the diesel particular filters and dual oxidation catalysts on modern trucks, so the levels on CK-4/SN spec oils are coming in below 800ppm, and this is not enough to protect a flat tappet cam. 10w30 is typically the lowest and sub-800ppm, 15w40 is marginal at around 1100, and 5w40 is a crap shoot and all over the place from 700-1200 depending on the brand and if it’s full or partial synthetic.
Valvoline VR1 is easy to obtain and even with some reformulation and rebranding stands out as a great readily available choice. I’ve used it for almost 30 years and have not had any oil related failures with it. Beyond that I also use Driven or Brad Penn.
Take a look at your cold start and hot oil pressures, if the cold pressure is over 60-70psi, drop the low number from 15w to 10w or even 5w. If the hot pressure is less than 20-25, raise the big number. Every engine is different, but this is how to get where you want to be.
In the past, I’ve run 20w50 in small block Fords that has put the cold start pressure at 100psi, but for track days, anything lower viscosity would drop below 50psi at 6000rpm, and I’m looking for about 10psi per 1000rpm. For daily street use the same engine was very happy on 5w30.
There is honestly a better selection of viscosity ranges now than ever before, so a little research, make sure the oil has a minimum of 1200+ppm of zinc, 1400-1600ppm is ideal, and dial in the viscosity to get the pressure where you want it.
Lake Speed also suggested not to go for diesel engine oil, only hot rod gasoline engine oil. His argument is that the higher detergent of diesel engine oil reduces the effect of ZDDP.
I break in many a year never lost 1 I use used ls springs brea in then switch to upgraded pac springs and run it with quality oil that's good for flat tappet. Also use break in rockers when applicable.
As long as the final springs you run provide the correct valve control without being overkill you’re on track.
You should run the valve lash to spec. for break in, if you increase the lash, you will be breaking in the lobes and lifters in a different area. also, part of the lobe will get no break in.
We’re not talking a massive amount, .004-.006 loose will not hurt a thing, especially with iron heads. You’re talking a few degrees from the base circle onto the lobe at the most gentle transition on the cam. The break in is far more critical at higher lift numbers on the ramps and nose of the cam than the base circle or transition.
Oils are a huge problem for older engines..! I add Delo or Rotella to my older engines.. One to two quarts at change and 50% till next change..
You might want to do a little more research, Delo and Rotella have been reformulated much like gasoline oils and all the oil formulations have seen a substantial reduction in the amount of ZDDP due to mandated catalyst and particulate filter requirements. I suggest Valvoline VR-1 or Driven oil products.
castrol gtx classic
Lake Speed Jr has talked about the changes to diesel oils. They are not what they used to be. Ever since they aligned the diesel oils with the API SN automotive standard to make them cross compatible, the EP additive package became emissions friendly and key additive levels dropped.
Is the 289 you talk about the one you were building with the trick flow twisted wedge heads? Or is that a personal project?
@@TheGT350Garage
Valvoline VR1 10W-30 = 1100 ppm
Shell Rotella T4 CK-4 15W-40 = 1203 ppm
(WPP) WalMart SuperTech CK-4 15W-40 = 1270 ppm
Source: Manufacturer Product Data Sheets
Yes....oil is absolutely the issue. Even in the roller engines. Lifter failure happens, it just takes longer. The failures I have seen result in notches cut in the lifters in the shape of the lobe. Why? Because the lifters are not rotating. Why? Because the oil is so damn slick it's washing off the cam and when started the lifter doesn't get rotated by the cam. We have to use oil that is sticky. The sticky oil will allow that cam lobe to rotate the lifter. The super slick oil allows the lobe to wipe across the lifter but it's so slick that the lifter doesn't rotate. Additive additive additive. Spring pressure gets checked on the bench for every spring. 100 psi works fine. Make sure your lifter rotates at assembly and use sticky stuff in the oil. I can definitely see people using roller springs in a flat tappet motor because they just don't know.
It’s not that the oil is too slick, that’s not the issue. Roller lifter failure in current production OHV engines is predominately a result of extended oil change intervals. You can’t ask the oil to operate in the engine for more than triple the time we used to because the oil itself, regardless of the additive package, breaks down before the oil change happens. We didn’t have rolller lifter failures on 5.0L Fords or 5.0/5.7 Chevrolet V8s because we were changing the oil at 3000 mile intervals. Fresh clean oil is incredibly important, because the detergent package needs to be renewed to prevent the formation of carbon deposits in the engine that are a significant contributor to these modern failures. Put these OHV Ford, GM and Mopar V8 on a 3k OCI and watch the failure rates fall to pre-2000 levels.
@TheGT350Garage I can see that. Remember, the 5.0 roller motors were before the removal of all the good stuff in the oil. I never saw a factory 5.7 GM roller motor. The first roller motor I remember GM producing was the 5.3 LS. These had roller failures. Oil change interval is very important. We still see people complaining, shops included, about failure even during break in.
In the past 35 years, 75% of the small block Ford engines I’ve built have been hydraulic roller. I recommend changing the oil every 3,000 miles or an annual oil change every year once the weather warms up over 70°F daytime highs (that can be most of the year in SoCal, but here in Northern Utah that’s usually mid to late May, even early June. Quality filters are a must, Motorcraft FL-1A minimum, Wix or Napa Gold are also good. Quality oil with detergents, Valvoline VR1, Brad Penn, Driven, for non-synthetics, I’ve always had good results with Amsoil and Mobil 1 full synthetics. I don’t recommend changing oil or filter brands, the different additive packages can cause a cleaning even stripping effect and if the engine has been on conventional more than 25k or 3-5 years, I don’t recommend switching to a synthetic, because Amsoil for instance will literally wash the deposits off the interior surfaces of an engine, and where does all that go? Through the filter and to the cam and lifters (flat tappet or roller, this isn’t desirable). After the initial break in on a flat tappet engine, I also don’t recommend more than 1/4oz of ZDDP additive per quart up to a maximum dose of 2oz. I realize that is less than the ZDDP additives say to add, but a little is actually good enough to fortify the oil, a lot has been proven to be no more effective and too much can actually cause deposition on the lifters and cam that can lead to secondary wear and failure problems from the ZDDP itself. I’m old school on a lot of things, but I’m practical and I keep myself informed and up to date on what’s going on and changing within the industry because it’s my job as an automotive instructor to stay on top of this stuff.
@@TheGT350Garage 100% agree. I don't use any zinc additive but my brother Brian is committed. I drove my Audi TT from KC to Maine & back. It doesn't have a gage or anything but the beeper goes off randomly when you come off the highway and drive through town. I did an oil change before we left and substituted a quart of "tractor" oil. Alarm never went off. VW 1.8. Thanks for your contributions. Teach em right
I have both Hydraulic rollers and solid flat tappet cams from the same manufacturer...both cams cards are requiring 155 lbs and the seat, and 415 off seat!
Crazy shit here!
What so often is not addressed is QC (Quality Control). In the end it is just as much a responsibility of parts suppliers to exercise QC Acceptance Inspection and testing as it is the manufacturer's responsibility. Failure to do acceptance QC whether the parts/materials are sourced from China or the USA invites unscrupulous practices by manufacturers or material suppliers. This is true here in US as well as abroad. In decades past materials and parts were ordered in large quantities and stocked for use over several months or even a year or more. Today's "just in time" inventory management has impacted QC Programs as overly costly and get reduced or eliminated completely. Why do GM's Delphi Lifters have excellent reputation? NOT because they are made in USA, but because GM's QC Acceptance program ensured it! GM could not afford recalling millions of engines because poor or non-existent QC allowed poor quality parts into their system. Years ago I worked in Aerospace Machining and QC started with Material delivery, manufacturing processes (at each step), Final pre-ship QC Inspection AND FINALLY acceptance QC checks by the customers including destructive testing. This final step is most important of all! So blame the cam suppliers if their cams / lifters fail - they did not do their job by holding vendors accountable through QC.
If only we all had the money to do destructive testing. Comparing aerospace to automotive isn’t quite a fair comparison. And the blanket assumption that QC is not in place is false, the cam manufacturers are testing the batches of cams and lifters, they check their finished products as well. We know some lifters are slipping into the marketplace with issues, that’s literally why I suggest grab a caliper, measure OAL at the center of the lifter and the edge. Easy to verify the taper is there. And GM’s Delphi roller lifters in the V8 are eating roller cams under warranty, I’m seeing more roller lifter failures than flat tappet failures as a result of extended oil change intervals. Maintenance and choice of lubricant are as important to all engines as the QC on the back end of parts manufacturing.
@@TheGT350Garage i was not meaning to negate all the good points you made in the video. They are all valid... but there is no magic involved. If design criteria is met (poor installation, break in procedures and proper lubrication aside) then there should not be any reason for increased failures in recent years that is not relative to poor assembly and break in procedures. There has always been inexperienced builders or "backyard Mechanics" doing cam installs. My experience tells me that QC if done will identify if there is an indemic materials or manufacturing problem. Many like to just blame Chinese manufacturing as the main problem, but having lived and worked in China I know they are just as capable as US providers and the opposite is true as well (just like US providers). I think you are right on mark with people using too heavy a spring when roller springs are so prominent. Cheers
In 30 years I only had one flat tap cam wipe out . Everything was done correctly I am also an oil nerd so all proper lube was used proper break in and set up spot on.. It had a few K miles on it and one lobe wiped flat motor full of metal. The only time I didn't use a big brand name came. I bought a " summit " traditional SBC cam . In the end who knows why. Replaced and never an issue again .
Summit is kind of like Costco, they private label a lot of parts from other manufacturers and you actually get decent parts under their brand. For camshafts, it used to be that Crane Cams was the biggest source of private label cams in the industry, and Summit was absolutely using them for private label cams. I know this from buying cams directly from Crane in plain white boxes by the pallet load from 2001-2006. It would be interesting to hear when you had the issue because Crane fell on hard times circa 2006 and folded in February of 2009. During that time they had some serious issues in terms of sourcing and producing cores because of the state of the industry, and they had known failures as a result. It affected the private label parts as much if not more than the Crane brand itself. If your failure was 2005 or before, it very well may have been a one-off issue. From 2006-2010 or so, it may have been a result of the issues at Crane, and after 2010, it’s possible the issue was teething issues with Summit’s later source for the cams.
@TheGT350Garage Great info. Thank you for the reply. Interestingly my failure was 2008. Summit at the time wouldn't tell me if there was any issues happening with their cams. I ended up putting an Edl performer cam in and had no further issue.
Edelbrock was a Crane customer as well, but they likely had more inventory to work from and may not have been experiencing the problems as soon as Summit. Every big name in the industry used Crane for private label to some extent prior to their demise.
I am building a 351w with a with a mechanical flat tappet cam as I dont want to deal with reduced base circle cams for retro lifters or tie bar lifters. Its a sub 400hp 351w as the truck only weighs 2400 with the 302 thats in it. Is there a particular spring and cam setup youd suggest? Its a stick street strip Ranger.
It depends a lot on what you’re running for carb, intake, heads and exhaust, and the compression ratio you’ll be running. I can give recommendations from Comp, Crower, and others, but I need more information.
I believe the problems with cam failures have several overlapping root causes. I have a background in heat treatment and metallurgy and have built many motors. The changes in oil makeup, cam lobe design with greater lift ramp angles, extreme spring pressure and the cam/lifter materials used. Contrary to some beliefs many of those name brands have cam blanks made in China with questionable material and even more questionable heat treatment. In addition when a cam lobe gets wiped out was it the lifter or the lobe. Lifters deserve some scrutiny as well. Tight lifter bores will prevent lifter rotation. I had a Comp Cams solid lifter cam go bad a few years ago in a BBC and I was extremely careful during the build and it created a mess. I would like to see a serious builder do some in depth testing of failed cams. To include actual material analysis down to the alloy contents and micro hardness testing of a lobe cross section. Or go roller and be done with the guess work.
Roller cam and lifter failures are a problem too (different reasons). At the manufacturer level, it’s extended oil change intervals wreaking havoc on the rollers, deposits preventing oil from getting into the rollers, oil shearing, etc. on the performance front, its lubrication and combination related. Really aggressive cams are just hard on parts. Crazy spring pressures are hard on parts. The pressure on the contact points in the lifter from the valve spring can exceed 50,000psi try being an oil molecule and not getting out of the way for that contact force.
@@TheGT350Garage ALL Cam lobes fail due to loss of material. Microscopic amounts of the lifter and lobe are removed and carried away by the lubrication every time they make contact with each other and this is when everything is working properly. The why a lobe fails quickly or prematurely deserves close examination by a skilled builder or similar results can be expected. If its lobe pressure thats at fault even when within Mfg spec its still a failure. If its the lube used even if provided by the Mfg well its still a failure. If modern flat tappet cams are so fragile that they need to be treated like a premature baby maybe thats a clue that they are not able to survive under the pressure and lubrication the average persons use. The long list of things you suggest to avoid a failure simply supports the argument of why they should be avoided. A quality Isky or Morrell roller lifter on a quality cam and good oil regularly changed and all should be welI for the moderate street / track build with no break in required. Those who have been meticulous building a motor and taken the precautions only to have it fail don't forget.
The way you make that statement is completely false. Blanket statements of “all” don’t work, and here’s why: I’ve maintained numerous flat tappet engines that have run past 500k miles in Ford F-150 fleet vehicles (4.9L I6, 5.0L & 5.8L V8s) so at the microscopic level, we’re talking about such a small number it’s inconsequential to say that normal wear is a slow play towards eventual failure. The key to those numbers was maintenance with the correct lubricant and quality filters at 3k oil change intervals. Several of those trucks were in service 12-15 years to reach those miles, running them 36-42k annually back in the 90s. In those engines, it was more common to have a valve spring fail than a cam lobe or lifter, we rarely had internal failures though. Flat tappet cams regularly outlast the valve job, head gaskets, or a wide array of peripheral components. And to that point, if you talk to any UPS mechanics who serviced the 300 Fords (older guys who worked there from the ‘70s through the early ‘00s), they regularly racked up over half a million miles with minimal issues with flat tappet cams. It’s not a design issue, the issues are application and user generated, as much as anything, and maintenance practices are a big player in the failures post break in.
@@TheGT350Garage I have never seen a cam lobe failure that didn't have a loss of material. So yes ALL/every lobe failure includes material loss. We can quote many examples of high mile service vehicles running solid cams. Heck many 5.9 Cummins have over 400 K on them. I thought this was a serious conversation about performance vehicles not delivery vans. You clearly wanted the debate & drama the moment you sent the video. Enjoy
You’re saying all failures are due to a loss of material. That is substantially NOT true. Loss of material happens due to incorrect application, too much spring pressure, lack of lubrication, incorrect hardness. Loss of material is not the cause, it’s the symptom. Your inability to correlate cause and effect is on you.
I wonder if people aren't testing lifter bleed down during assembly.
Contamination in the lifter from something as simple as towel or rag lint is all it takes to cause a lifter to bleed down.
@TheGT350Garage That's right! I wonder how many cam failures are a result of this. I bleed test them all and will be blocking the filter bypass on my personal builds.
That and also people don't prime the engine enough either they just build up oil pressure on a gauge and call it good on my Chevy engines I prime it till I have oil coming out of each push rod no matter how many times I have to rotate the engine you can hear it on a lot of these startup videos The lifter beating the s*** out of the cam hey friends
@carlpreston1680 I prime the oiling system using a power drill chucked to an old distributor I ground all the teeth off the drive gear.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 That's what I do too
Awesome video! I love how sassy you are lol😂
People have forgotten how to break these things in. You can't just slap a new hydraulic camshaft in and boom you're done. Valve spring pressure is critical. Pull your inner springs out for break in.
Or run a break in spring set. In most engines it’s easy enough to change. The problem is people get a case of the lazys these days.
It's poor machining on the lifters
Can be, but easy to check and not as common as it’s being made out to be.
groove lifter bores so oil sprays on the cam lobe. Comp cams sells a tool for this. old pushrod flat tappy engines always had shitty oiling to the lifters splash oiling just isn't that great. Also you can avoid low quality lifter problems if you just send your old flat tappet lifters in to get refaced there are companies that will do it. Also yes high spring pressure isn't helping either.
Grooving the lifter bores needs to be done carefully, and they need to be honed after grooving to ensure there are no high edges along the groove that could prevent the lifter from rotating freely.
I blame social media (aka chinese whisper)for the 'increase' in flat tappet failures!
The only issue with social media is that people are gullible and believe things from supposedly reputable sources without verifying the validity of the claims. The cam and lifter failures are not because the parts are all coming from China, but mostly a result of people taking really bad advice and trying to build an engine combination for the first time using badly matched parts.
Great t shirt
Never say never
Do not like breakin in flat tappet cams,,,Dont have that pre break in with rollers
I get that, but realize that if it’s done right, they are absolutely fine. Rollers still need the same spring heat cycle for longevity too.
@@v1-vr-rotatev2-vy_vx31 actually some of the roller lifter manufacturers do give a break in instruction for roller lifters aswell!
Yeah I don't get it as we haven't lost any Flat Tappets either ? touch wood I guess ?
We deal strictly with a Lifter Manufacturer.... we check Lobe Taper and Lifter Crown.... no problems so far ?
I genuinely believe a lot of the failures are self inflicted. It takes literally 15 minutes to precisely check every lobe on a cam and every lifter in a box and you don’t need a fancy crown gauge or any high end tools to verify them, a simple digital caliper will do nicely. Using the proper assembly lube, not too much, not too little, a good break in oil with a decent filter, and having proper technique for starting up and breaking in a cam and lifters takes minimal effort. Honestly the hardest part is understanding the valve spring pressure needs for the cam profile and valvetrain as a whole, and that is still not that hard to figure out, but definitely requires a higher understanding of the physics involved.
@TheGT350Garage so I'm wanting to run a comp cams 268h and it recommends a 110lbs install pressure. Should I go with what they recommend or run lighter?
@davidsager3343 so it depends on the engine you’re running. Here’s some insight into your question even if it’s not your exact situation:
For a 289/302 Ford, with a 1.78/1.48 valve package and 1.6 rockers, Comp recommended springs for the 268H are 942-16 for that cam, 115 on the seat at 1.7” and a 339lb rate that nets 270lbs at .456 lift. If you use that spring, you would have to install it at 1.715” to get 110 and that drops the open pressure to 265, the rate does not change.
A big block Ford 429/460, is a different deal all together. Same lobe profile 268H, Comp recommends a 940-16 spring that runs 93lbs on the seat at 1.9” and has a 241lb rate for just 212lbs open. This is spot on for this combination, maybe a bit on the low side even. On a big block, the rocker ratio is a much higher 1.73:1, so it applies more force to the lifter, but the valves are all drastically heavier and require more pressure to prevent valve float, I would be inclined to run 90-100lb seat pressure with a 280-300lb rate to control the increased valvetrain mass netting open pressure in the range of 228-248lbs, which are still quite reasonable.
The wild variations in rate, seat pressure and open pressures are why I’m so adamant that the recommended spring pressures are a major contributor to killing cams. Going back to the small block, I’d run 85-95 on the seat and shoot for a spring rate in the 260-280lb range to get an open pressure of 203-223 due to the lighter valves because that is a small-ish cam lobe profile that really won’t make power past 5400-5800rpm in a typical mild small block. The same profile will lay down at about 4600-5000rpm in the big block, which is why the springs don’t have to be monstrous.
dont run out of gas ! never had a car have a lifter failure
Isky Rev Lube...
Molybdenum disulfide, the best
Flat tappers have tucked for 20 years now,NASCAR engine builders won't touch em😊
@rickyfulks6656 NASCAR is a whole different level. You’re talking about cam profiles that are trying to extract every bit of power from a particular engine combination for a particular purpose. Valve lift is in the .700-.800 range, duration is 260-280 @ .050”, the RPM gets up past 8000, and that’s a full on race application. Failures there can be expected. A street engine with less than 235° @ .050” and less than .560-.580” valve lift should still be viable in most cases. Verify the crown and taper, run the right springs, use the right assembly lube, and break it in correctly and I find there simply isn’t the issue others are having.
I use to use overkill springs on a 13-1 440 with a mech cam.Last one I used the rec springs and it went flat. I fixed all my problems and went roller.
I don’t use the recommended springs these days, I also don’t use monster springs. If an engine needs a cam with much more than 235-240°@.050” or so of duration, I also don’t use flat tappet cams very often any more. There’s too much power to be had by going hydraulic or solid roller above 235-240° Of duration to give up for a couple hundred dollars more in parts. Under about 235-240°, and under .550-.575” lift or so, flat tappet cams perform really well. Spring pressure needs to be carefully considered though, and if you’re running into a need for dual springs on a flat tappet, it’s probably time to go roller.