Forgotten Ripper Victims?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ม.ค. 2024
- Forgotten Ripper Victims - Wicked Wednesdays
News of the Times Episode 247 | 1888-1891
Historically, there has been much speculation regarding possible murders beyond the ripper “canonical five”. At the time, the police were highly motivated and pressured to give an appearance that they had a grip on the killings and that their counter actions were having a positive impact in reducing the number of horrific murders. But were they successful in keeping the ripper down to only five killings?
In today’s episode we look at three killings in the area between 1888 and 1891 that historians have speculated were ripper killings. We take a look at the three victims and delve into the question of whether there were more ripper killings occurring beyond Mary Jane Kelly.
Three cases of murders that historians speculate could have bene ripper killings is today’s episode of Wicked Wednesdays.
Hosted by Robin Coles.
#NewsofTheTimes #VictorianCrimeStories #HistoricalCrimeStories #VictorianMurders #Historicalcrimedocumentary #historicaltruecrime #ripper #londonhistory
TH-cam: / @newsofthetimes
Email: newsofthetimespodcast@gmail.com
EPISODE
If you like this, here are links to some other recommended videos:
1837: Jack the Rippers Precursor - Francois Courvoisier | Ep44v
• 1837: The Jack the Rip...
1889: William Henry Bury - Suspected Jack the Ripper | Ep66
• 1889: William Henry Bu...
1903: George Chapman - The Ripper Suspect | Ep88
• 1903: George Chapman -...
1947: The Disturbing Saga of the Blackout Ripper | Ep113
• 1942:The Blackout Ripp...
1869 - 1898: Joseph Vacher - The French Ripper | Ep159
• The French Ripper - Jo...
1871: Joseph Phillipe - The French Ripper | Ep236
• The French Ripper - Jo...
1837: Jack the Rippers Precursor - Francois Courvoisier | Ep44v
• 1837: The Jack the Rip...
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Those poor ladies. It's hard to imagine the fright and pain they experienced. 😢
It must have been awful. An extremely difficult life as well. 😔
Get a grip
Who knows EXACTLY how many victims the Ripper murdered?! I don't think we'll ever know for sure!! Whatever the number, it was tragic for the poor victims and their families!!😢💔
We are under the opinion that it was more than five certainly. Whether that included any or all of the women in this episode is a possibility. The papers reckoned the ripper had killed 11 or 12. 🪦
Ah, JTR is one of my favourite topics. It's what brought me to this channel. These sound like copycat killings or murder while the victims were plying their unfortunate trade. These murders don't sound brutal or depraved enough. Jack was very demented.
Thank you. Enjoyed very much. Have a great week ahead all. Be safe out there.
Ah - thank you! We are so very appreciative of your wonderful support! Glad you liked it - we thought it was interesting. We are making some changes - the shorts have been a fail. Wednesdays show is a goodie we think! Agreed - as someone said before - possibly copycat. Just muddies the water, doesn't it?
@@newsofthetimes We'll never know...
One theory I read concerning the silence of the victims was that the Ripper got the women to bend over with their backs to him (no I’m not going to explain why, you can fill in the blanks yourself ) then he cut their throats. This served the double purpose of silencing them by bisecting their trachea and keeping the majority of their blood off him.
I like the theory that the ripper could have been the first person to find Mary Ann Nichols. The story of his ‘finding’ the body can be turned into the story of a murderer interrupted by passers by with very few leaps of logic (unlike some of the more famous individuals suggested) of course the true identity of the Ripper is lost to time.
Wow! That is very interesting! We had not heard that theory before! Hmmm. That would explain a lot. Apparently it was tested - once the throat was cut in a certain way, no sound can come out. Thank you, as always, we appreciate your observations! 🙌
So Cross was the ripper - he wasn't but I can see how massive leaps are needed to put a book together - keep eating the cat food killer .
Good to see the face behind the interesting voice ...matches ....well ...the old writing facts ...is still to be studied ..I still use reference from Paul Begg ...etc ..huge work from those old writers.
A face that radio would love! 📻
HOW DARE YEH - I will wager my wages your not on the catwalk yourself the roof perhaps - Good Day mizzzzzz .
@@jamescorlett5272 😉😏
I have to admit, I tuned in thinking you were going to talk about possible early victims. I am convinced that almost all serial killers have more early victims that we know about during which they were in development and their signature and their M.O. were not fully developed. The Whitechapel murderer would certainly be among those I'd suspect of such cases. As for later victims... Well. The killings do suddenly seem to stop. And it certainly is possible, if the killer was not captured and put away for something else, died or moved away, that they changed their pattern somewhat after taking some time off, and then killed again. Mary Kelly was definitely a peak killing. This might have caused a psychological break. Or caused behaviour that brought suspicion on the killer, not necessarily for being the killer, which would cause him to stop for a time. Serial Killers have been known to take long breaks, as well as stop altogether. Joseph D'Angelo did both. So did the original Zodiac. So it is possible that any or all of these woman are victims of the same killer though there is a difference in patterns. Also possible they were partial or full copycats. This idea of the "Canonical Five" originates with the police who were simply determined that there not be more victims. At least two of the five may not be victims of the same killer. I only say may. I think they were. But the point is that there is nothing firm about the Five and we should not approach the case as if there were. Well presented and thought out.
very interesting! 👍 We agree - we think there is a buildup to the fully committed serial killer. You are absolutley right regarding the enormous pressure the police force were under at the time to mitigate the story. As we relayed (in waaaaay too much detail) in our whitechapel wednesdays series, there is a real schism betwen the press at the time (who practically became an additional detective squad) and the official news being released by the police. There is a clear conflict. For example, we think it was in episode 3 or 4 - a bloody handkerchief from near the scene of one of the murders was found by a young girl. highly embarassing to the police to have evidence found by a child. The Thames Torso murders, which happened around the same time - were not officially included. Also the pinchin torso mystery whch was almost a taunt to the new Scotland yard. The thames Torso mystery - the location is quite near to Whitechapel. It was not within the police scope of Whitechapel,. but it was maybe a 10 minute cab drive at the time? We do not think JTR necessarily confined himself to one police precinct. interesting! Thank you for sharing!🙏
The BTK killer also took long breaks and then just stopped. Family life got in the way as he got older and needed to be at home more often for his family.
I can't recall the name/names but I think at least one prostitute was killed before the murder of the first official Ripper victim. She was not sufficiently mutilated I guess but that could be because he was just starting out and getting used to just killing let alone maiming the bodies after killing. It would make sense at the start that he would have not dared to spend as much time with a woman he just killed but he got bolder as he went and the more he got away with.
Interesting vid as always. Personally I think the canonical 5 and possibly the earlier Martha Tabram murder were the Rippers victims. Not convinced by the other possible victims though they remain 'possible but unlikely' to me.
Interesting, 🤔 and potential murky waters with copycat killers. The press counted 11, but from a progressive standpoint. We still think the Thames Torso mysteries may be involved th-cam.com/video/_Orpk42MUlQ/w-d-xo.html.
They did not get the attention because they fell under a different police force, but it was very close geographically and the mutilations were just horrendous. We do know from the papers that there was an enormous effort put forward to minimise the number of killings via government and police and, of course, the official police records are what is used today. Thank you for your support!🙏
Very interesting content. Thankyou. I believe these were also ripper victims and should be treated as such.
Interesting! Have you taken a look at our Thames Torso murders? We really think that those were possible ripper killings. Quite close to Whitechapel, BUT, different police department. Thank you for your support!
I don't care what trade these women plied,they were human beings,trying to survive.
The way they chose to do that,is no excuse for murder.
As is often the case,the victim takes the blame.
Sadly too true - you can hear it in the moralistic news repots. The victim bashing, based on difficult limited choices, of the women, is too sad.
The police did mishangle this situation but even being a policeman let alone a detective was a fairly new profession at that time. They didn't have any of the research about killers, procedures, methods or other information we have today and certainly not much of the technology that helps solve many cases today. I'm certain there were plenty of serial killers throughout all of history but there was nothing to be done and certainly not police to help to stop them at the time. Only if they were known people and very conspicuous where they caught. Such as the Countess Elizabeth Bathory and Baron Gilles de Rais. I'm certain it was going on almost since there were humans to kill but there were no records kept at the time and then it was just not something people knew what was going on and most likely to be ascribed to something supernatural or even natural causes depending on how the victims were killed. Giulia Toffana provided women with poison to kill men but she was never bothered about it and she disguised it as a cosmetic item. Many people were poisoned throughout history and for most of it nobody would have had any idea that it wasn't natural. Suffocating and even strangling a person would not have alerted people to a killer for most of history. It's very scary to think about but serial killers didn't just suddenly appear in the human population. They would have been born that way as they are now. It would be an interesting study to look for any possible indication of serial killers in antiquity and in the later time periods through medieval and up to when they first started being reported. They were there among people all along of that I'm certain.
Ooooh! A crime enthusiast! We have done lots of stories where the serial killer has been busy for years and the crimes only come to light at the last one. Jonathan Balls comes to mind! The police in this where somewhat out of their depth. They threw everyone on the case and the thinking was not joined up. It reminds a little bit of the Peter Sutcliffe case. The police were under intense governement pressure which was also not helpful. We have been really impressed with some of the other cases where crimed are solved with the slenderest of clues - the Regent square murder is a great example of this. But in the ripper case, with the ineptitude, hostile environement (residents did not love the police), governement pressure, media scrutiny, and some various scandals associated- it was a complete fail. Interesting! Thank you for your thoughts!🙏
....
it seems that it was in the polices interest to " credit " the ripper with as few murders as was done - but surely copycats were just as lethal - perhaps the T T murderer was trying to out do jack ? - how jolly decent it was for this or these ? copycats to wait for jack to finish the C 5 before setting about there business - honour among multiple murderers was Alive + well Although you couldn't say the same for those poor Souls .
Great points! You are absolutely right - it was very definitely in the interests of police and the government (Whitehall was certainly involved in this) to minimise the number of JTR killings whhc is why we ignored the police reports for our whitechapel series and stuck to the papers.
The papers reckoned 11 JTR victims - of course, we are aware it was in the interest of the poaers to sell killings as JTR, but even the Times was unconvnced by only 5. The papers had their own investigations. But we think the series of torsos found not very far from Whitechapel, but falling within a different police precinct, should be considered too. As you say, very difficult to differentiate between what was real JTR and what was copycat. 1888 had quite a few outrageous murders. Our Monday case coming up from 1889 is....just astonishing. When you think you have seen it all.....not a JTR copycat but the Whitechapel police (poor) response to JTR reverberated around the world and NO ONE wanted to have the same police bashing that London had at the time. Thank you, as always, for your wonderful support and keen observations! 🤔🙏
Copy Cap crimes. It seems the Ripper had his MO, the women mentioned in your tale were sadly typical. It seems the povery of Whitchapel had such a mix of differet cultures. Thanks Mr Coles. This was an interesting endeavor.
Really glad you liked it! Copycat fro sure a possibility - as you say, his MO was known! ©️
@@newsofthetimes They rarely start out right away with their full MO. It's something that develops with time and as they gain confidence and as they develop what thrills them or satisfies their sick desires. They also can and have changed their MO and taken long breaks between killings and even is some more rare cases just stopped killing.
They rarely start out right away with their full MO. It's something that develops with time and as they gain confidence and as they develop what thrills them or satisfies their sick desires. They also can and have changed their MO and taken long breaks between killings and even is some more rare cases just stopped killing.
@@marniekilbourne608 Agreed! 👍We have respondeed to the original thread saying pretty much the same thing. It is now standard that it is a process.🔍
These women were murdered by a despicable person whether or not it was Jack the Ripper. They keep referring to these women as "underclass," even if they were they didn't deserve to be horrifically murdered in the streets, period! I still can't comprehend how no one saw or heard anything in connection with these women's murders especially the policemen who patrolled this area. I personally believe Jack the Ripper murdered more women than he was accused of even if he didn't murder these women. Great investigation, presentation, backstories, illustrations, photos and videos, too. Take care 🦋
Great to hear from you! 🎇We are sorry of the difficulties you have been having.
Yes, we think so too - we do think it is more than the five - we think that was done by the police at the time and the considerable pressure they were under. You are right - it is terrible that the women are constantly called underclass - really sad. 😔A sign of those times. 🎩
Excellent point concerning truly horrific acts, not captured in this world, but trust me all are judged in the next, wo be it those despicable souls!!!🙏😢✨👌⚖️🤔🔥❣️
🙏✨👌🦉❣️
Interesting but sad. No matter if it was Jack or not they are just as dead. Miserable lves, still the case in these times. Easy victims, not really missed. Evil exists from one generation to another.
Yes, very sad when anyone is treaated as if they have a throwaway life. Thank you for sharing. 🙏
Is Frances Coles a relation of yours?
No, not that I know of! 😉
Its blatantly obvious that a murderer arrived here in 1888 George Chapman is that man imo . - we had are own killer's of course and opportunistic killer's but regarding the ripper it's Klosowski i can't prove how many woman he murdered but as two starting points his own Mother had her throat cut and Chapman lived in the same building that Martha Tabrams body was found etc etc etc . Bucks Row was 200 yards from where Chapman was still living ... .
We did an epsiode on Chpaman - have you seen it? It is all from the papers. th-cam.com/video/9RFYNYSPCL8/w-d-xo.html we also did Bury - that was quite interesting th-cam.com/video/9NLsE1Gl-sI/w-d-xo.html
. You will have competition with your thoery! Many people are certain it was Sikkert (who we have not covered). 😏
@newsofthetimes I'll try again but make things less painful for the Cross is are ripper lot - Why on earth would Cross having got clean away with murder - feel the need to change his name Unless it was perfectly acceptable to All - some reason I'd find funny if Stow was to answer I'm sure .
@newsofthetimes regarding Sickert according to P Cornwell he didn't have the balls for it or did he ¿ .
@@newsofthetimessorry my reply went to my Chapman comment by accident .
or somewhere here abouts .
of cource mcKenzie and Coles were jtr victims as you said jtr was a merchant seaman getting his own back for the pain he endured from thir ministrations In the course to becoming amerchant seamanyour told about these dangers intheday this would not have happened female company after a long trip seem esentual there probably is more to say on this topic jtr was a frustrated std sufferer ttfn&ty
🤔
have a word with the house of lechmere by edward stowe
Thank you ! 👍
They're hardly "forgotten." They're the most famous murder victims in history. Any true crime historian can name all of them.
Thanks for the feedback. We say "forgotton" because they are not the cannonical 5. We also have a question mark on them because again, they are not reccognised as the official Jack the ripper cannonical five. If they were indeed Ripper victims, they are forgotton ripper victims as no one refers to them as ripper victims. There is a lot of heated discussion as to who JTR actually did kill. That was the reason for the title. Thanks again for your feedback. 😊
yeah sure the is a few candidates for jack and the are peaple out- there who can bring a different slant to the ripper charade - I'd like to give a shout- out to one @joeylowell who believes it's another George George Hutchinson and I believe that's possible as a suspect anybody who fooled oh what's his name Mr Depp must with hindsight be taken seriously as the dread ripper - Hutchinson imo definitely had the brass cheek or balls of steel and might have thought that he had more than Earned the money the police payed him to luck for Himself yes that is a distinct possibility .
He's talking about women that are not generally considered to be Ripper victims. Only 5 women are considered as victims of the Ripper but other prostitutes had been killed around the same time. I guess they weren't sufficiently mangled enough to be considered to be killed by Jack the Ripper.
It down to one man who said these 5 and only these 5 were ripper victims - which is nonsense Either way .
It is generally accepted from a historical perspective that there were mnore than the five. It is also now a given that no serial killer comes out "fully cooked" - it s a buildup. The crimes themselves, and their classification, were dicated by the crime precincts. A bit like being on the border between two states and having crimes from the same killer in two different states. There were several crimes, really not far from Whitechapel, absolutley horrific in nature (Thames Torso Mystery which we covered in detail) which was only a few miles away. That started in 1887. They remained unsolved. The Pinchin street murder, which was a corpse very near new Scotland yard building site, almost seemed like a poke at the police. We go back to Peter Sutcliffe: police chased the wrong suspect type for years based on a hoax. Possibly not so different. 😉
Walter Sickert was JTR fairly recent DNA testing has proved this. Fabulous upload as usual News of the Times.
Thank you! We have gone back and forth on whether to do Sikkert - we have an open file on him - but we have hesitated as he has been done so frequently. It is a really interesting case! thank you for sharing. 👍 And thank you for the kind comment. 🤗