One of the primary reasons I chose brooks is zero plastic. I wore out my B67 in distressed brown as the leather is quite soft compared to other brooks' leathers. I primarily ride my rigid BridgeClub on fairly rugged singletrack thanks to our wonderful army of NEMBA, and found the nose way too long on the B67 to float like a butterfly (human bodies make for superior suspension than mechanical complications assuming rational bike geometry). So went with a Flyer S in fancy-edition black with copper when B67 replaced, and it is perfection for my humble butt (open-boxer at less than half msrp to boot). The springs allow sway of the sit-bones more than comfort from bumps, though they take the bite out of unexpected hits. Many call the S the woman's, but my man-butt is plenty happy. Snapped a rail clear in half over one of my favorite hits; an abrupt swale at the bottom of a gulley where momentum is very helpful going back up, yet you become airborne on a rocky corner (with trees) no matter how much you try to absorb the swale. Thrilling if you get it right but precarious otherwise! Retailer gave a full refund to me via email/pics since they didn't want to deal with warranty stuff. Subsequently reached out to brooks who fixed my beloved saddle for free, even upgrading the nose adjustment to their latest 4mm allen-wrench adjustable nose bolt. Wonder how Berthoud does in the customer-service realm or the environmental realm (recycled/recyclable plastic bits?). Also wonder how either company does in the humane/non-chemical leather department.
I bought a Berthoud after extensive research between them and Brooks. Russ is right, the Berthoud is spendy, but I like that you can replace parts, as needed. I've never ridden on a leather saddle until my Berthoud and I was surprised how comfortable it was. The first ride was a surprise at the stiffness, but it gets better with every ride. I have it on my Tumbleweed Prospector and I feel that it works really well with the bikes geometry.
Good review. I started seriously riding when I was 24 years old. I’m almost 70 now. I’ve tried many saddles over the years but I always end up going back to the Brooks B17. If I could try this saddle for free I would do it but for now I’ll stick with what’s been tried and true through the years.
I was at a mtn bike track and meet a very strong rider, after deciding he was probably in his mid 50s I ask, he said 67 and rode that track 3 times a week.I was pure amazed. Then last week I meet a lady in the bike shop buying a low step bike ( I bought one for my 73yr old mother and she loves it ) and after she finished a few bike stories she happily said she was 93yrs old, I was almost floored. I want you to know that people like you, them, and my mother really inspire me , along with given me hope about getting older which I'm not handling very well but it's just a part of life. The Lord has blessed me so far so I guess I shouldn't worry. Thanks for commenting what you did, it has put a smile on my face.
Thanks Saddle Weary! As we get older we have to keep moving or you will get old! The bicycle is a wonderful way to get some exercise, enjoy nature, and clear the mind. So grateful it’s been a part of my life.
Interesting timing. My closed brown Berthoud Aspin arrived in the post this morning. Not ridden yet, but felt promising when I sat on it briefly during installation. Despite being female, I found the shorter ladies version of a Brooks to be absolute torture. I have tried several saddles, both leather and plastic, and suffered on all of them. I spent some of the money I have saved over the past pandemic year by not going to various events or on holiday on what I hope will be "the one". I found a very good deal with a discount so it was not a lot more expensive than a Brooks B17 special men's version, the other option I was considering. If it doesn't work out, I will sell it on Ebay, just like its predecessors. That's the advantage of buying quality - resale value is always good. I have to say the Aspin is a thing of beauty, with that wonderful "new leather" smell. If it rides as well as it looks, I am in for many happy miles. I did a lot of research before splashing out and most reviews I have read agree with your opinion, Russ, that it is a very comfortable saddle for most people. I just hope I am one of them.
I got one of those Brooks shorts on CL, and it was awful; the metal nose hit me right in the sensitive bits. It did encourage me to get a B17 "aged", which was amazingly comfortable right out of the box. Good luck with your Aspin; I hope your butt likes it! :-)
I've had the exact same experience with Brooks B17s (Ladies Standard). Not comfortable, but I attribute this to the short rails and the inability to adjust the saddle on my bike.
Just been for my first ride on the Aspin. Only a short spin. but it was sheer bliss, straight from the box. I am a short woman, riding a Brompton with M bars about 2-3 inches higher than the saddle. Although the Aspin feels like solid wood to the touch, there is some give in it once seated. No problem at all with the hard nose, unlike the women's shorter Brooks. With the added cushioning effect of the Brompton firm suspension block it was like riding a Cadillac. I was very torn between ordering the Aspin or the wider Aubisque because of my riding position which corresponds to the no4 "fitness" illustration, somewhere around 60 degrees. With all the other plastic saddles I have tried, I could "feel" my sit bones after even a short ride - not painful, just aware they existed, and problems with the female bits on longer rides. During and after today's ride without padding, I forgot I even have sit bones or other parts. Really glad I went with the narrower saddle. Now happily looking forward to long rides and Brompton touring at very relaxed party pace. Not saying everyone can afford to splash out, but most people spend more money on cafe coffee or beer in a few weeks than the cost of a Berthoud saddle. Comfort on the bike is worth a small sacrifice in my view. We all choose our own priorities.
I have ridden both for many years and have grown to prefer the Berthoud Aspin/Aravis (steel/Ti). The B17 feels better to me early in the saddle life and for shorter rides. With time the thick leather of the Berthoud becomes more and more comfortable. Also, for longer rides and for multi-day rides the Berthoud was significantly more comfortable. Offroad, the steel nose of the B17 can hurt soft crotch bits, while the composite nose on the Berthoud is more forgiving. Finally, the Berthoud is pretty in design; I especially like the Berthoud cork 'color', a unique choice. For those that don't want the weight/cost/hassle of a leather saddle, the WTB Pure is a potential similar substitute.
We have a small collection of Brooks B17s and love them for around town or shorter, faster rides. Never tried Berthoud or their clones like VeloOrange. For our ultralong (600km+) tandem tours, we've moved to Selle Anatomicas. These are very comfortable on long rides over mixed terrain like cobblestones and bricks. If you pay attention to the front bolt tension (this can loosen over time) and don't let them sag, they provide great support. The cutouts solved my numbness problem instantly. We've read about broken rails but ours, over six years of touring, have never failed. Nonetheless, as Russ notes, each bum is different and one person's ideal saddle is another's instrument of torture. It helps to try before you buy if you can.
My (closed) Aspin took on a distinct butt shape after just one 50mi ride! Not at all what I was expecting based on many reviews. My (open) B17 took about 200mi to start to see any signs of sit bones, and it is still quite stiff. It now lives mounted on my upright bike, and I have no complaints. The leather used on my Aspin began to show signs of "personality" almost right away. Berthoud's "manifesto for natural leather" states that each leather is different and beautifully imperfect. They say that they love the marks, folds and scars that testify to the life of the animal, and I love it too! Also, their "cork" leather treatment is a thing of beauty.
I have a Brooks Flyer that’s like riding on angels’ wings. I love it. But I’ve also had like 3 to 5 other Brooks that were poor quality. I took the risk on a Berthoud and it’s amazing. Soooo comfortable and handsome. I swear by them now
I bought my first B17 in the late '80s but unfortunately I killed it too soon because of non/bad/wrong care, I was young didn't know what I was doing. I tried many seats over the decades but the B17 is for my lower end the best even out of the box. I use B17's (always the standard black with steel rivets) on several bikes for years on a Single Speed Commuter on a Touring Bike and a Surly Pugsley the only seat that doesn't give me grief and I still love the classic look + style but I learned from the mistakes of my youth and they are perfect for a long time.
I have a Brooks Imperial (b-17 cutout) on all 4 of my bikes and LOVE it. I also tried the Selle Anatomica but had problems with bending rails that are crazy long and the leather starts to flair out between the legs causing some rubbing and bruising. I was not aware that Berthoud had an open version of their saddle available so I might have to give it a go. I would love to see a comparison between all three of these saddles.
Thank you so much for your hard work and sore butt. You really covered all the questions that I have and have equipped me to make a informed decision. Thanks so much.
I've used both saddles. Your review is spot on. B17 Imperial has the cut-out which might be more comfortable. The Berthoud lasts longer in my opinion partly due to the thicker leather. I like that you can easily change out parts with the Berthoud. The B17 Cambium rubber saddle is another option to try. I find them pretty comfortable with a natural suspension due to the rubber.
As a bicycle commuter I had the same Brooks B-17 saddle for 11 years and it was always perfect. (I stopped riding my road bike when I moved to the unpaved mountains).
I am still riding my Peugeot PX-10 (1966 folks gave it to me on my 16th b-day) with the original B-17. Over the years gave it a saddle soap wash here and there and it is still comfortable and in great condition. I ride Brooks on all my bikes.
I have had several Brooks saddles one of which was a B17 that stretched way too fast. The quality of the leather was bad an possible too thin. I'm now riding an Aspin which is way better, better leather, better quality and I get along much better with the shape of the Aspin. Gilles Berthoud for the win!
This review is on point. I've had my first B17 for 7 years and tens of thousands of miles on road and gravel. About 3 years in, I punched holes in the skirt and laced it up with some paracord, but that has been the only major maintenance. I'd expect at least few more years of use out of this saddle -- great value for money. I bought a new B17 last year for another build, and the leather is far more supple and stretchy out of the box than the saddle with 7 years age. So far, it is holding up well and riding comfortably, but I can't imagine it lasting a decade. In comparison, Berthoud saddles seem overbuilt, and serviceability justifies the added cost. And as an aside, I received a Gyes racing saddle in 2016. It lasted 2-3 months before the leather was stretched beyond repair. Perhaps their quality has since improved, but that saddle was junk.
When I do use this type of saddle, I've gone full in on Selle Anatomica. Most recently their rubber top with carbon rails (that also comes with standard Chromoly rails). I really like them.
Same here. I have a couple of Selle Anatomica saddles, and they are by far the best saddles I have ridden, especially for long (80+ mile) rides. I suspect that the Berthoud is comfortable for some of the same reasons since the design looks similar. The SA slot is narrower, and it seems to be not so much to relieve pressure in the middle as to allow the two sides to flex independently, making the saddle move more with your hip bones. Someone said it is like having two hammocks for your butt cheeks, and that makes sense. And along with that, the SA saddles have a tension adjustment so as the leather in the "hammocks" stretches you can tighten them up for just the right amount of sag when you sit on them. The Berthoud saddles have a similar tension adjustment.
Bought a B17 a few months back, only have about 150 miles on it so far and it's been a pain in the butt to break in, but progressing getting better. I found the same thing, Russ - I do much better on the B17 the more upright I'm sitting on it, hence yet another benefit to purchasing a steer tube extender. I believe that the "bottom" line is regardless of saddle, you've got to ride sufficiently/regularly enough to get your sit bones used to sitting in the saddle for as long as you expect your rides to be.
Great review - really useful! Thanks :-) I whimped out when I had to choose - I have both ! A Berthoud on my commute and a B17 on my tourer. Regards, from Bristol, England
Nice review, great details. I have both a Brooks B17 and a Gilles Berthoud Aravis. Yes, the Brooks does have pronounced depressions from your sit bones. The Berthoud does not develop those, well, I am only hitting about 20,000 kms on mine so who knows? B17 pliable out of the box? Not my experience but I bought mine in 2006 or 2007 and I have heard that the quality has changed since then. Berthoud thicker? Yes, totally agree but it will give quite a bit. Mine looks and feels stiff to the hand but it's a different story when you push down on it. Also, agree about seat and body position for both saddles. The Brooks B17 is better for touring, the Berthoud can handle both touring and road endurance positions. Berthoud has a racing version called the Galibier which should be even better for road endurance and racing. Value, I would go with another Berthoud.
I have ridden brooks b17 on my touring bike about 30,000 kms over the years as I've aged my butt preferred as softer saddle Gilles Berthould seem to be a good option Thanks for your review it has helped me make up my mind 😃
I've been riding on a Berthoud Aravis (Closed leather) since February. I have been riding a Brooks B17 Special (closed leather,) since 2004, supplemented by Sella Anatomica and Rivet saddles (both with leather cutouts.) Until I got the Berthoud, I always seemed to keep coming back to the Brooks. The SA saddles were very compliant but I found the openings too flexible and tended to have chaffing problems with the cutouts regardless of how I tensioned the saddles. The Rivet was very firm and ultimately not as comfortable as my old Brooks. But having put the Berthoud on my 2011 Rivendell Hilsen has been a repeat of what you found. More expensive? Yes, by far. Totally serviceable by me! Fits me better than any of my other saddles by far. Would I buy it again? Definitely! I'm thinking of adding another bike later this year and another Berthoud Aravis will be one of the first components I put on it.
I consider this a very fair comparison with all of the necessary caveats. I have the Brooks flyer and generally like it, although it took me awhile to get to that point.
Thanks for the thorough and balanced review. For my road bike on fast rides I absolutely love the Selle Anatomica, after trying many saddles of all kinds over the years. But having purchased a Rivendell Appaloosa I wanted a leather saddle more conducive to a more upright position. Like you just couldn't get comfortable on the Brooks B17. The Berthoud Aravis (titanium rails) open I find really comfortable even though the leather remains quite stiff. Would rather not have any plastic but like that the saddle is completely serviceable.
I’m 65. I’ve ridden bikes a lot, and I’ve ridden a lot of bikes. The only truly comfortable saddle I’ve ever had was my Brooks. It was expensive, even back in the 80’s when I got mine, but well worth it. I miss that saddle.
I just bought my 2nd Brooks saddle last week. I bought a lightly used Brooks B17S last year for my hardtail mtb and it literally just started feeling comfortable within the last few weeks. I got the B17s becuase I didn't want a bulky looking saddle on my MTB but at the same time wanted a wider saddle which the B17S wider then the standard B17. I built a janky parts bin road bike and bought a standard B17 last week. I ended up also buying a leather punch and punching a few holes along the flappy part and tied those up so they don't angle out. The B17S was the softened version and the standard B17 is the standard version. The new B17 is hard as a rock but i knew that when i got it, what i didn't anticipate is how damn slippery it is. That is going to take some getting used to and I'm hoping it gets a little grippier pretty soon. But tbh i haven't put any miles on it, I've only ridden it maybe a mile so far so i know i have a long way to go.
Great review Russ! Over the past decade, I've put in a lot of personal research on saddle selection. I've ridden about 5k miles on a B-17 narrow and about 2k miles on a new GB Aspin. I chose the Aspin for my new brevet bike over a B-17 or Team Pro primarily because of the thicker leather, then the replaceable design. I wanted thicker leather and a full skirt for a stiffer, more supportive saddle that is more resistant to stretching, sagging, and creaking than the thinner leather used by Brooks. Both saddles are comfortable, but during a 200k and 400k this season the Aspin was supremely comfortable--the most comfortable I've ever ridden. My previous brevet saddle was a Fi'zik Arione, which was comfortable under 100 miles, but the bottom of the cut-away skirt would chafe my thunder thighs. The full skirt of the Aspin prevents the dreaded thigh chafe. All of these saddles are about an inch above my handlebars.
I have been running a Giles Berthoud Galibier with no cutout for two years and I won’t ride anything else now. The best thing I can say about my Berthoud is that I don’t notice it. Tip for the Berthoud, set the nose slightly up. Forces you into the “sling” of the saddle and keeps you off the nose.
It is worth mentioning that there are further tweaks possible with the Brooks saddles which come in a group of similar models. Years ago I found B17 to be the best fit for me, so far... but, when it got destroyed in the fire I used several years of experience with it to guesstimate I'd need something a bit narrower... Got B17 Narrow as replacement and now, 8 years later, I wouldn't trade it for any other... So, particularly for men cyclist who physically have narrower sit bone arrangement - try narrower one, you may be surprised (we typically associate from the life in general that the wider seating is typically more comfortable, not necessarily).
I use. both. But I do use the “imperial” version of the B17 that has a cut out. Both on slightly different bikes as well. The test for me is “do you notice the saddle after 20 or 30 miles? Nope. The Berthold i use with a more aggressive set up and the brooks on a “cruiser” set up. Interestingly I note that brooks are now offering a short nosed version of the B 17 in both cut out and full saddles. Brooks also has a wider colour range if that’s your need. They are both very nice saddles and butt comfort is very subjective! What would I get? Depends on the style of bicycle that you are riding!
You should do a video on how to care for leather saddles over time. I had a vintage Ideale saddle for the longest time and almost ruined in riding in the rain!
Lots of mentions of the Selle Anatomica. I've used one of these leather saddles for long touring for a decade now and they really get along well with my butt. Last year I picked up the new rubber version. It rides very similar to the leather but is weather proof. The biggest difference I noticed is the damped sensation when riding on gravel compared to a leather saddle. Even with 43C tires at 35 psi the rubber saddle feels like it takes the buzz out of road surface. The saddle has reinvigorated my love for my gravel bike.
First heard about GB saddles in Bicycle Quarterly, and very much liked the look of them, but was a little put off by the price. I've tried a B17 in the past, but really didn't get on with it. So it's great to hear your comparison between Brooks and GB, which kind of confirms my thinking, and makes me want to give the Berthoud a go after all. Thanks for another great video!
I've tried a lot of Brooks for several years, and I only got along with the Imperial versions; Flyer, Team Professional, and B17 Narrow. I've since been using a Rivet Independence with a cut-out and it's the most comfortable saddle to me so far. It feels like a cross between the Brooks Team Pro and B17 Narrow. I've recently tried a Gyes 06H and I've been pleasantly surprised by how well it feels and its quality considering its price.
I also ride a Rivet Independence and I think it’s the best saddle I’ve been on. Clearly a cut above any Brooks. I had a Gyes years ago and it was junk. Hopefully they’ve improved since then
I like the manner of the presentation. Very informative and well done. The missing part is the ride. Of course every "arse" is different but a ride evaluation between the two would add more credibility in my opinion. So much alike but so different.
Tricky dance to compare saddles that only have material in common. Well done. I have only one leather saddle in my quiver right now but an already a convert to the cutout. Even from internet research I saw the B-17 top contours and found them problematic and thought their cutout model to small. I went with Selle Anatomic because of their design and marketing toward rider weight. The Berthoud Aspin Open is intriguing as I am heavier and like the implementation of the cut-out.
I have never ridden on a Brooks, but I had a Berthoud on a bike previously. I liked it after it broke in a little bit. I was actually surprised at how much give it had after broken in, it was nice going over boardwalks and when one of my friends decided we should ride through a pasture for some reason.
I've had a B-17 for over 4,000 miles on my Salsa Fargo. I agree that they work well with and upright geometry. Mine felt great out of the box but then started wearing unevenly after about 800 miles. it corrected itself about 2,000 miles and rides perfect now. I think I'll cry when it finally breaks after all the ups and downs we've been through. The Berthoud is on my list for a replacement though.
Love my b17, have many thousand miles on it. Have never ridden a Berthoud, so can’t comment. Thicker leather will definitely take longer to break in, so consider that. Of my B17 saddles, the narrow version is my favorite for long distance rides, hopefully it’s still being made.
Twenty five years ago, I was ready to buy a recumbent because I just couldn't get comfortable on a saddle. Bought a B17 from Wallingford Bicycle Parts and on my 4th ride I did 125 miles with zero pain and never looked back. But lately I have been feeling that ridge down the middle you talked about so have been looking at Rivet, SA, Spa and Giles. Tried a SA but it was way too soft but I hear they have made some improvements. But what makes me nervous with them is they want to sell a replacement skin the same time you buy the saddle. I would hope that would be something I wouldn't have to worry about for about 10 years. I can't get a response from Rivet so leaning towards the Giles. They look nice and flat as you pointed out.
Have you tried the Brooks B17 Special? The Special has copper rivets that are hand hammered, and the leather as I understand it, is a little thicker. I have never ridden a Berthoud, but the B17 Specials are by far my favorite saddles! Thanks for the great content as always!! Keep it up, and we would love to see more you and Laura content when you can do it!
The Berthoud also gives you the option to attach a click-fix adaptor. That's what the two brass inserts at the back are for. And for tensioning of the leather you can use a standard 5 mm Allen key. The leather on the Berthoud is bone-hard to start with but hopefully will last a lot longer once worn in.
My first thought was that the Berthoud frame looks more serviceable, it's cool that they have a modular accessory system too. And I don't know if the same trick works on a Berthoud, but maybe start out by de-tensioning it like you would to break in a Brooks.
I've always ridden with B17 saddles on all my bikes, including mountain bike. But you do have me intrigued by the Berthoud. I had looked at them years ago, but I was a little put off by the plastic portion in the back which made it look cheap IMOP. I may try it next time my Brooks needs replacing. Thanks for your review!
Hi Russ good day .. Gb Aspin is better than the B17 special . i been using my aspin saddle for a long time now i loved this saddle it gets better with every ride very comfortable even without chamois . its more expensive but its worth it .
I had a B-17 toured twice across the country on it happily for thousands of miles but at some point on both tours I'd get trouble with it and it would feel like riding a broomstick and it would press hard on me where the cutout would be except I didn't have the one with the cutout and the Brooks cutout looks too small anyway. I'd try adjusting the tension without really understanding what I was doing. It would improve a bit and I'd continue. In the end it was painful for even a short ride and I swapped it for a very minimal very light saddle and I really appreciate how much easier it is to squeeze into a bike box for air travel compared to the Brooks. I wouldn't get another Brooks leather which is funny to say after liking it a lot for such a long way The other one yes I'd be tempted to try it
I have owned 6 Brooks saddles throughout my 45 years of cycling. B17, Pro, Swift, B17 with coil springs. Mt biking, Road Touring, Bikepacking, Road racing commuting. Always on a Brooks of different models. 2 of the brooks were replace at no charge because a rail broke. Very odd that this happened to me on 2 different saddles. I have never weighed over 175 lbs. 2 saddles have airline cracks in the leather back between the rear rivets. This is probably my fault for not keeping up on the leather treatment. I do adjust the tension randomly about every 2-3 years of use (1/2 to 1 full rotation on the tension screw) and always try my best to keep them covered and protected from rain when I'm not riding. That said if my house started on fire the family photos and the Brooks saddles would be the first items I would grab. Never had an issue with break in of both presoftened or regular leather saddles. I've only tried 1 other brand of heavy leather saddle (Selle Anatomica). Not close to the comfort of the Brooks.
I've been having an eternal battle whether to buy a Gillies Berthoud. I ride a Swift right now and it fits well(ish) I'm afraid to jump to a Gillies Berthoud but I think that cutout will solve most of my issues. The Journey in finding the "perfect" saddle is long and painful. The most comfortable saddle I've ever rode was some cheap Chinese full carbon saddle that broke after 500Km But man it was comfortable, I'm looking for something that will stand the test of time. Great video, covers a lot of specs that people wonder, I actually emailed Gilles Berthoud about 6 months ago asking about the adjustability on the rails because I needed quite a bite of set forward on my bike packing rig. Those are the questions people wonder and I'm shocked it's not included in the product desciption.
I have bought off Aliexpress, no name copy of Brooks for $33 including shipping. Applied vaseline and hot air with a hair dryer to weatherize and now it has a natural tan color to it. It is still a cowhide saddle as good as the original.
Spot on about up-angling the B17. Counter-intuitive but it puts you in the "hammock." B17 must just fit my shape, because I've ridden one for years, never with a chamois and I rarely notice it. (also - that Rivendell is gorgeous! wow)
I have a B17 thats great but have ended up with 5 Selle Anatomica saddles. I buy one for every build I do and have to say they work fresh out of the box.
Brooks quality took a huge nosediver ever since they were bought by Selle Italia, and now they offer a bunch of crazy colors & sizes & options, just a crazy number of things that don't matter, but lower quality overall (thinner leather is only on recent Brooks saddles). If the saddle is too stiff you can get a titanium B17 - about the same price as the Berthoud, and significantly more comfortable because the rails flex a lot more! Also if the flare of the B17 is too much, you can either get a B17 special (with chamfered skirt), push the saddle back by 1 inch and ride closer to the front, or get a Brooks Professional (significantly more narrow) or even a swift (a cut-down version of the Pro). I like that you can push back on a brooks during a ride and "ride up on the hill" from the back of the saddle.
The B17 with cut-out is available for a better comparison. Also the narrow version. When I modified my B17, by making a similar cut-out, I found that the "hump" disappeared and the seat flatter, and I added side lacing.
I have a Rivet Independence and it’s my favorite saddle. Never been on a GB, but the Rivet seems comparable in every way and it is clearly better than any Brooks I’ve owned.
See my comment above about effective saddle width. Beyond that, Rivet laminates the leather to a waterproof underside material, making the saddle far less comfortable than the Brooks or SA. I sent mine back for a full refund.
@@jbwillson It’s weird how we all have such different experiences with these things. The Rivet fits me like a glove and I’m so happy it doesn’t stretch as fast as a Brooks/Selle Anatomica.
@@WordupG I'm glad it works for you. I really wanted the Rivet to work, but like the Brooks, I was sitting on the frame. The Rivet folks are delightful about returns, and said they're talking about making a wider saddle.
Saddles are such a personal thing, it's very difficult to be objective about them. I ride a B.17 and two C.17s and am very happy with both. A 40gram is hardly a thing to lose sleep about - !
Yeah saddle reviews are difficult I’m sure. Have my own experiences with the two saddles and landed on one that works for me. It’s an expensive game of trial and error. Advice to shoppers get used off eBay to try out and if you like it then get a fancy new one.
I have variants of the B17 on most of my bikes. They range from comfortable to cushy. I have one honey model on my road bike that still seems to be pretty stiff with no sign of getting the indents from my sit bones (but it does have a lovely patina). I have another one in black, in theory the same saddle but it has developed the perfect amount of flex. I am sure there is some difference due to the cut of leather used. Also just built up a Straggler with a "Persons" brand knockoff of a B17 that I picked up for a mere $50. Close to a B17 on my 11 mile shakedown cruise, but I'll see how it feels after a few hundred.
Any saddle that has a taint bridge is pure torture for me. I'm so glad a lot of saddle makers are compensating for this. Lots more options out there nowadays.
Right at 40,000 miles on my Brooks when it died, and Ive been looking for the Berthoud after seeing it and forgetting the name. Just gotta save up them duckets!! Fixin guitars aint as lucrative as you might think!
Yes I do get thigh chaffing, thank you for pointing that out. Like that you can swap out the leather rather than buying a new saddle. That actually sounds like a cost saving
See also: Selle SMP. Have 3 of these. Yes, saddles are subjective but Selle SMP remove a lot of that subjectivity by categorising their saddles by sit bone size, purpose, sit angle, rider weight, etc. Best ergonomic saddles in my experience and I’ve been through a lot on my way to get there.
You're right, Berthoud Aspin is definitely closer to the Brooks Team Pro than the B.17. B.17s stopped working for me. All my bikes now have Berthoud Aspins or the Ti railed Aravis.
I’m running the Brooks Swift on my trail mtg. I get weird stares and questions all the time, but in all honesty, I feel like that craftsmanship of a leather saddle is somewhat special compared to the foam/rubber/plastic saddles from top brands.
I've been a Brooks user for 25 years, never tried a Berthoud. I've missed a mention to the adjustable front bolt in the B17 to tight the leather through the years. Anyway, thanks for the video, like your content.
In the seventies my first 10-speed came with a wrights leather saddle. I didn't find it comfortable until I got caught in a soaking rain. The wet saddle conformed perfectly to my but then and I found it very comfortable after that. It looked like hell stretched and deformed but felt so Good! So if you find a leather saddle uncomfortable give it a good soak and ride it for about an hour to conform it to you.
You left out a critical objective measurement. Turn the saddle over and measure the distance between the horns of the cantle (frame). That - more than the placement of the rivets - shows the usable width of the saddle. I’ve not tested a Berthoud, but I finally figured out why my Brooks saddles weren’t breaking in to my 140mm sit bone width: the gap between the horns of a Brooks frame is only about 125mm. I was actually sitting on the frame of the saddle. Ouch. That means about 50mm (2 inches!) of the Brooks is effectively wasted width compared to a more modern saddle. Rivet and Selle Anatomica saddles work the same way. For those of us with wider pelvises, none of these leather saddles will ever break in.
@@urbaninterlude I have been using an Ergon SMC for a year now. Best saddle I've ever used. Longest rides so far: 4 hours. I like the shape of all the Ergons, but the SMC is just the right amount of softer.
@@urbaninterlude The Berthoud Vars is basically a B18, and I put it on every bike from road racers to 29+. There is also the resurrected Ideale Model 90. I’m waiting for the 92 which comes out it 2023. It’s not a racing saddle but it’s the only saddle that has never given me issues.
I have a Taiwanese leather saddle that cost 130 Dollarydoos. It's lovely. I think that's about 80 USD for you good people. It is very new so I can't comment on its durability but it is getting a work out. Love the Soft Cell reference 👍
Rivet saddles are made-in-the-USA and feature thick, quality leather like a Berthoud. I have their Independence saddle and it’s the best I’ve ever ridden. Consider them as well, if you’re in the market for a leather saddle.
I wanted to love my Brooks, but I cycle in a lot of hot weather and the leather dye would not stop leeching off of the saddle onto whatever (non-lycra, non-chamois) shorts or pants I was wearing. I started to just constantly keep a rain cover on the Brooks to preserve my garments.
I've been a fan of Brooks saddles for quite some time, specifically the B17/C17 series. I have wanted to try the Berthoud, but after seeing this review and the shape, I think I will pass. I've spent some time on a Brooks Swift and Swallow and they are just too narrow for my seat anatomy to be comfortable on for any period of time and this Berthoud seems to be similar in shape. . I have a Selle Anatomica on one of my bikes, and while it is a nice saddle (and MUSA if that matters to you) and works well with my anatomy, I found that the leather is thinner than what Brooks uses and tends to deform/stretch faster. I have one or two bikes that have leather B17 on them now, but a good number of my "used for high mileage days" rides are sporting C17, either with or without the cutout. I've managed to buy most of mine used from people that have tried them and not liked them, so it hasn't meant spending an arm and a leg to get similar saddles on my bikes.
my brooks are very comfortable, with the way I fit, I did have to use seat posts with 32-35 mm set back, you don't get a lot of fore aft movement on the brooks with many seat posts..
Just a hunch here, but if your goal is to break the saddle in so that it’s comfortable to ride without a chamois, I’d break it in without a chamois. If you’re always going to wear padded shorts then it probably doesn’t matter.
It might be just me but almost every photo I see of a Brooks equipped bike has the saddle tilted nose up. Sometimes VERY nose up. I have an old Bridgestone XO-3 that I equipped with a B-17. The only way I could stop CONSTANTLY sliding forward on the saddle was to tip it nose up to the point of it pressing into uncomfortable areas. Sold it on EBAY and have been noticing nose up B-17's on bikes ever since. I'll take a WTB Volt any day. No silly proofide treatments or tension adjustments needed. And a FRACTION of the weight. And available in several widths. And reasonably priced. And....
I am a heavy guy at 120kg and have been riding Brooks since almost 30 years, typically Team Professional. But the frames keep breaking. Brooks offers spare parts, but putting in new rivets is a pain. I also tried a Cambium, but there the top disintegrates. Now, if a could put leather on a Cambium frame! I switched to Berthoud now. Let's see how they hold up.
In the past, Brooks supplied spare rivets if needed. It's not a hard thing to replace. Not sure if they still do that, but it was an expected repair on a well ridden saddle.
Great video! LOVE my B-17 black saddle. Helped me greatly on my PGH DC yearly bike trips in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 :) I would like to try some Ergon saddles since I love their GP5 grips small (so many hand positions).
After trying LOTS of saddles, including Brooks, SA, and Rivet, I have settled (literally and figuratively) on an Ergon SMC. The Ergon SR and SM saddles are really good, too, but the SMC has the additional padding my aging butt needed. The SMC is far and away the most comfortable saddle I’ve ever ridden.
I've had an older Brooks for years that sometimes gets swapped in, and between my experience with that and your review I can confidently say that the Berthoud would likely be a better option for me. But... I just can't get over the plastic part; weight savings isn't a benefit to me and plastic bits are a major turn off. So, guess I'm sticking to my Terry Liberator Y and not getting a new leather saddle this year.
I've owned one, or multiple of just about every model of brooks saddle. And I've managed to wear out almost all of them after so many years of riding. I've only owned one berthoud for a couple years now and so far and I've found it a finer, longer lasting, and more comfortable saddle than any brooks I've had. Brooks are great: they are comfortable, and last a long time. I'm clearly a fan. But if you find GB isn't comfortable or durable enough, GB is even better.
Have you tested/tried a Selle Anatomica? I got one on a used bike a few years ago and instantly fell in love. Similar to the Berthoud but more affordable.
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Definitely appreciate the biggest attempt to include disclaimers about subjectivity. Saddles are a tough one. Both are beautiful.
One of the primary reasons I chose brooks is zero plastic. I wore out my B67 in distressed brown as the leather is quite soft compared to other brooks' leathers. I primarily ride my rigid BridgeClub on fairly rugged singletrack thanks to our wonderful army of NEMBA, and found the nose way too long on the B67 to float like a butterfly (human bodies make for superior suspension than mechanical complications assuming rational bike geometry).
So went with a Flyer S in fancy-edition black with copper when B67 replaced, and it is perfection for my humble butt (open-boxer at less than half msrp to boot). The springs allow sway of the sit-bones more than comfort from bumps, though they take the bite out of unexpected hits. Many call the S the woman's, but my man-butt is plenty happy.
Snapped a rail clear in half over one of my favorite hits; an abrupt swale at the bottom of a gulley where momentum is very helpful going back up, yet you become airborne on a rocky corner (with trees) no matter how much you try to absorb the swale. Thrilling if you get it right but precarious otherwise!
Retailer gave a full refund to me via email/pics since they didn't want to deal with warranty stuff. Subsequently reached out to brooks who fixed my beloved saddle for free, even upgrading the nose adjustment to their latest 4mm allen-wrench adjustable nose bolt.
Wonder how Berthoud does in the customer-service realm or the environmental realm (recycled/recyclable plastic bits?). Also wonder how either company does in the humane/non-chemical leather department.
I bought a Berthoud after extensive research between them and Brooks. Russ is right, the Berthoud is spendy, but I like that you can replace parts, as needed. I've never ridden on a leather saddle until my Berthoud and I was surprised how comfortable it was. The first ride was a surprise at the stiffness, but it gets better with every ride. I have it on my Tumbleweed Prospector and I feel that it works really well with the bikes geometry.
As a vegan, your comment about vegans at the end of your video cracked me up!!! Great review 👍!
Good review. I started seriously riding when I was 24 years old. I’m almost 70 now. I’ve tried many saddles over the years but I always end up going back to the Brooks B17. If I could try this saddle for free I would do it but for now I’ll stick with what’s been tried and true through the years.
I was at a mtn bike track and meet a very strong rider, after deciding he was probably in his mid 50s I ask, he said 67 and rode that track 3 times a week.I was pure amazed. Then last week I meet a lady in the bike shop buying a low step bike ( I bought one for my 73yr old mother and she loves it ) and after she finished a few bike stories she happily said she was 93yrs old, I was almost floored. I want you to know that people like you, them, and my mother really inspire me , along with given me hope about getting older which I'm not handling very well but it's just a part of life. The Lord has blessed me so far so I guess I shouldn't worry. Thanks for commenting what you did, it has put a smile on my face.
Thanks Saddle Weary! As we get older we have to keep moving or you will get old! The bicycle is a wonderful way to get some exercise, enjoy nature, and clear the mind. So grateful it’s been a part of my life.
Interesting timing. My closed brown Berthoud Aspin arrived in the post this morning. Not ridden yet, but felt promising when I sat on it briefly during installation. Despite being female, I found the shorter ladies version of a Brooks to be absolute torture. I have tried several saddles, both leather and plastic, and suffered on all of them. I spent some of the money I have saved over the past pandemic year by not going to various events or on holiday on what I hope will be "the one". I found a very good deal with a discount so it was not a lot more expensive than a Brooks B17 special men's version, the other option I was considering. If it doesn't work out, I will sell it on Ebay, just like its predecessors. That's the advantage of buying quality - resale value is always good.
I have to say the Aspin is a thing of beauty, with that wonderful "new leather" smell. If it rides as well as it looks, I am in for many happy miles. I did a lot of research before splashing out and most reviews I have read agree with your opinion, Russ, that it is a very comfortable saddle for most people. I just hope I am one of them.
I got one of those Brooks shorts on CL, and it was awful; the metal nose hit me right in the sensitive bits. It did encourage me to get a B17 "aged", which was amazingly comfortable right out of the box.
Good luck with your Aspin; I hope your butt likes it! :-)
@@Korina42 Exactly! I felt your pain. Have added another general comment that may help others decide on a Berthoud.
I've had the exact same experience with Brooks B17s (Ladies Standard). Not comfortable, but I attribute this to the short rails and the inability to adjust the saddle on my bike.
Just been for my first ride on the Aspin. Only a short spin. but it was sheer bliss, straight from the box. I am a short woman, riding a Brompton with M bars about 2-3 inches higher than the saddle. Although the Aspin feels like solid wood to the touch, there is some give in it once seated. No problem at all with the hard nose, unlike the women's shorter Brooks. With the added cushioning effect of the Brompton firm suspension block it was like riding a Cadillac. I was very torn between ordering the Aspin or the wider Aubisque because of my riding position which corresponds to the no4 "fitness" illustration, somewhere around 60 degrees. With all the other plastic saddles I have tried, I could "feel" my sit bones after even a short ride - not painful, just aware they existed, and problems with the female bits on longer rides. During and after today's ride without padding, I forgot I even have sit bones or other parts. Really glad I went with the narrower saddle. Now happily looking forward to long rides and Brompton touring at very relaxed party pace. Not saying everyone can afford to splash out, but most people spend more money on cafe coffee or beer in a few weeks than the cost of a Berthoud saddle. Comfort on the bike is worth a small sacrifice in my view. We all choose our own priorities.
I have ridden both for many years and have grown to prefer the Berthoud Aspin/Aravis (steel/Ti). The B17 feels better to me early in the saddle life and for shorter rides. With time the thick leather of the Berthoud becomes more and more comfortable. Also, for longer rides and for multi-day rides the Berthoud was significantly more comfortable. Offroad, the steel nose of the B17 can hurt soft crotch bits, while the composite nose on the Berthoud is more forgiving. Finally, the Berthoud is pretty in design; I especially like the Berthoud cork 'color', a unique choice. For those that don't want the weight/cost/hassle of a leather saddle, the WTB Pure is a potential similar substitute.
We have a small collection of Brooks B17s and love them for around town or shorter, faster rides. Never tried Berthoud or their clones like VeloOrange. For our ultralong (600km+) tandem tours, we've moved to Selle Anatomicas. These are very comfortable on long rides over mixed terrain like cobblestones and bricks. If you pay attention to the front bolt tension (this can loosen over time) and don't let them sag, they provide great support. The cutouts solved my numbness problem instantly. We've read about broken rails but ours, over six years of touring, have never failed. Nonetheless, as Russ notes, each bum is different and one person's ideal saddle is another's instrument of torture. It helps to try before you buy if you can.
My (closed) Aspin took on a distinct butt shape after just one 50mi ride! Not at all what I was expecting based on many reviews. My (open) B17 took about 200mi to start to see any signs of sit bones, and it is still quite stiff. It now lives mounted on my upright bike, and I have no complaints. The leather used on my Aspin began to show signs of "personality" almost right away. Berthoud's "manifesto for natural leather" states that each leather is different and beautifully imperfect. They say that they love the marks, folds and scars that testify to the life of the animal, and I love it too! Also, their "cork" leather treatment is a thing of beauty.
I have a Brooks Flyer that’s like riding on angels’ wings. I love it. But I’ve also had like 3 to 5 other Brooks that were poor quality. I took the risk on a Berthoud and it’s amazing. Soooo comfortable and handsome. I swear by them now
Brooks went through a period of not so great quality and QC. You are right.
I bought my first B17 in the late '80s but unfortunately I killed it too soon because of non/bad/wrong care, I was young didn't know what I was doing. I tried many seats over the decades but the B17 is for my lower end the best even out of the box. I use B17's (always the standard black with steel rivets) on several bikes for years on a Single Speed Commuter on a Touring Bike and a Surly Pugsley the only seat that doesn't give me grief and I still love the classic look + style but I learned from the mistakes of my youth and they are perfect for a long time.
I have a Brooks Imperial (b-17 cutout) on all 4 of my bikes and LOVE it. I also tried the Selle Anatomica but had problems with bending rails that are crazy long and the leather starts to flair out between the legs causing some rubbing and bruising. I was not aware that Berthoud had an open version of their saddle available so I might have to give it a go.
I would love to see a comparison between all three of these saddles.
butt sores are sexy
"Taint bridge" This is why I subscribe
In Australia we'd call it the "barse bridge".
Thank you so much for your hard work and sore butt. You really covered all the questions that I have and have equipped me to make a informed decision. Thanks so much.
B-17 Imperial (with the cut-out) might change your mind about the comfort of the Brooks. Keep up the good work. Great stuff, Russ.
I had an Atala bike decades ago. It had a hard molded leather seat. After a few rides it became the most comfortable seat I've ever sat on.
I've used both saddles. Your review is spot on. B17 Imperial has the cut-out which might be more comfortable. The Berthoud lasts longer in my opinion partly due to the thicker leather. I like that you can easily change out parts with the Berthoud. The B17 Cambium rubber saddle is another option to try. I find them pretty comfortable with a natural suspension due to the rubber.
As a bicycle commuter I had the same Brooks B-17 saddle for 11 years and it was always perfect. (I stopped riding my road bike when I moved to the unpaved mountains).
I am still riding my Peugeot PX-10 (1966 folks gave it to me on my 16th b-day) with the original B-17. Over the years gave it a saddle soap wash here and there and it is still comfortable and in great condition. I ride Brooks on all my bikes.
Selle Anatomica for the win!!! Never tried the Berth but brooks is a commitment of pain to break in for lite riders in my experience.
Still rocking on a B17. Butt now I'm tempted to date others. Thanks Russ for a great comparison! Be swell.
I have had several Brooks saddles one of which was a B17 that stretched way too fast. The quality of the leather was bad an possible too thin. I'm now riding an Aspin which is way better, better leather, better quality and I get along much better with the shape of the Aspin. Gilles Berthoud for the win!
@@pgreenx That's my understanding too.
Yup, Brooks used to be quality but they’ve dropped the ball/care less now. Profit ahead of reputation, quality control and return sales.
This review is on point.
I've had my first B17 for 7 years and tens of thousands of miles on road and gravel. About 3 years in, I punched holes in the skirt and laced it up with some paracord, but that has been the only major maintenance. I'd expect at least few more years of use out of this saddle -- great value for money. I bought a new B17 last year for another build, and the leather is far more supple and stretchy out of the box than the saddle with 7 years age. So far, it is holding up well and riding comfortably, but I can't imagine it lasting a decade.
In comparison, Berthoud saddles seem overbuilt, and serviceability justifies the added cost.
And as an aside, I received a Gyes racing saddle in 2016. It lasted 2-3 months before the leather was stretched beyond repair. Perhaps their quality has since improved, but that saddle was junk.
Would love to hear your thoughts on, or the comparison of, the GB and the Selle Anatomica saddles.
Me too. I'm a Brooks gal, and my husband loves his Selle Anatomica. We have to petition the company to send him one to review.
When I do use this type of saddle, I've gone full in on Selle Anatomica. Most recently their rubber top with carbon rails (that also comes with standard Chromoly rails). I really like them.
Same here. I have a couple of Selle Anatomica saddles, and they are by far the best saddles I have ridden, especially for long (80+ mile) rides. I suspect that the Berthoud is comfortable for some of the same reasons since the design looks similar. The SA slot is narrower, and it seems to be not so much to relieve pressure in the middle as to allow the two sides to flex independently, making the saddle move more with your hip bones. Someone said it is like having two hammocks for your butt cheeks, and that makes sense. And along with that, the SA saddles have a tension adjustment so as the leather in the "hammocks" stretches you can tighten them up for just the right amount of sag when you sit on them. The Berthoud saddles have a similar tension adjustment.
Bought a B17 a few months back, only have about 150 miles on it so far and it's been a pain in the butt to break in, but progressing getting better. I found the same thing, Russ - I do much better on the B17 the more upright I'm sitting on it, hence yet another benefit to purchasing a steer tube extender. I believe that the "bottom" line is regardless of saddle, you've got to ride sufficiently/regularly enough to get your sit bones used to sitting in the saddle for as long as you expect your rides to be.
I don't want to ride 150 miles before my ass is happy !
Great review - really useful! Thanks :-) I whimped out when I had to choose - I have both ! A Berthoud on my commute and a B17 on my tourer. Regards, from Bristol, England
Nice review, great details. I have both a Brooks B17 and a Gilles Berthoud Aravis. Yes, the Brooks does have pronounced depressions from your sit bones. The Berthoud does not develop those, well, I am only hitting about 20,000 kms on mine so who knows?
B17 pliable out of the box? Not my experience but I bought mine in 2006 or 2007 and I have heard that the quality has changed since then. Berthoud thicker? Yes, totally agree but it will give quite a bit. Mine looks and feels stiff to the hand but it's a different story when you push down on it.
Also, agree about seat and body position for both saddles. The Brooks B17 is better for touring, the Berthoud can handle both touring and road endurance positions. Berthoud has a racing version called the Galibier which should be even better for road endurance and racing.
Value, I would go with another Berthoud.
I have ridden brooks b17 on my touring bike about 30,000 kms over the years as I've aged my butt preferred as softer saddle Gilles Berthould seem to be a good option
Thanks for your review it has helped me make up my mind 😃
I've been riding on a Berthoud Aravis (Closed leather) since February. I have been riding a Brooks B17 Special (closed leather,) since 2004, supplemented by Sella Anatomica and Rivet saddles (both with leather cutouts.) Until I got the Berthoud, I always seemed to keep coming back to the Brooks. The SA saddles were very compliant but I found the openings too flexible and tended to have chaffing problems with the cutouts regardless of how I tensioned the saddles. The Rivet was very firm and ultimately not as comfortable as my old Brooks. But having put the Berthoud on my 2011 Rivendell Hilsen has been a repeat of what you found. More expensive? Yes, by far. Totally serviceable by me! Fits me better than any of my other saddles by far. Would I buy it again? Definitely! I'm thinking of adding another bike later this year and another Berthoud Aravis will be one of the first components I put on it.
I consider this a very fair comparison with all of the necessary caveats. I have the Brooks flyer and generally like it, although it took me awhile to get to that point.
Thanks for the thorough and balanced review. For my road bike on fast rides I absolutely love the Selle Anatomica, after trying many saddles of all kinds over the years. But having purchased a Rivendell Appaloosa I wanted a leather saddle more conducive to a more upright position. Like you just couldn't get comfortable on the Brooks B17. The Berthoud Aravis (titanium rails) open I find really comfortable even though the leather remains quite stiff. Would rather not have any plastic but like that the saddle is completely serviceable.
I’m 65. I’ve ridden bikes a lot, and I’ve ridden a lot of bikes. The only truly comfortable saddle I’ve ever had was my Brooks. It was expensive, even back in the 80’s when I got mine, but well worth it. I miss that saddle.
I just bought my 2nd Brooks saddle last week. I bought a lightly used Brooks B17S last year for my hardtail mtb and it literally just started feeling comfortable within the last few weeks. I got the B17s becuase I didn't want a bulky looking saddle on my MTB but at the same time wanted a wider saddle which the B17S wider then the standard B17. I built a janky parts bin road bike and bought a standard B17 last week. I ended up also buying a leather punch and punching a few holes along the flappy part and tied those up so they don't angle out. The B17S was the softened version and the standard B17 is the standard version. The new B17 is hard as a rock but i knew that when i got it, what i didn't anticipate is how damn slippery it is. That is going to take some getting used to and I'm hoping it gets a little grippier pretty soon. But tbh i haven't put any miles on it, I've only ridden it maybe a mile so far so i know i have a long way to go.
Great review Russ! Over the past decade, I've put in a lot of personal research on saddle selection. I've ridden about 5k miles on a B-17 narrow and about 2k miles on a new GB Aspin. I chose the Aspin for my new brevet bike over a B-17 or Team Pro primarily because of the thicker leather, then the replaceable design. I wanted thicker leather and a full skirt for a stiffer, more supportive saddle that is more resistant to stretching, sagging, and creaking than the thinner leather used by Brooks. Both saddles are comfortable, but during a 200k and 400k this season the Aspin was supremely comfortable--the most comfortable I've ever ridden. My previous brevet saddle was a Fi'zik Arione, which was comfortable under 100 miles, but the bottom of the cut-away skirt would chafe my thunder thighs. The full skirt of the Aspin prevents the dreaded thigh chafe. All of these saddles are about an inch above my handlebars.
Thanks for reminding me. I will now go out to give my Brooks a little service. It was neglected during winter....
perfect time to drop this..... was about to order a new leather saddle was looking at the usual stuff.... stoked to see better options out there
I have been running a Giles Berthoud Galibier with no cutout for two years and I won’t ride anything else now.
The best thing I can say about my Berthoud is that I don’t notice it.
Tip for the Berthoud, set the nose slightly up. Forces you into the “sling” of the saddle and keeps you off the nose.
It is worth mentioning that there are further tweaks possible with the Brooks saddles which come in a group of similar models. Years ago I found B17 to be the best fit for me, so far... but, when it got destroyed in the fire I used several years of experience with it to guesstimate I'd need something a bit narrower... Got B17 Narrow as replacement and now, 8 years later, I wouldn't trade it for any other... So, particularly for men cyclist who physically have narrower sit bone arrangement - try narrower one, you may be surprised (we typically associate from the life in general that the wider seating is typically more comfortable, not necessarily).
I use. both. But I do use the “imperial” version of the B17 that has a cut out. Both on slightly different bikes as well. The test for me is “do you notice the saddle after 20 or 30 miles? Nope. The Berthold i use with a more aggressive set up and the brooks on a “cruiser” set up. Interestingly I note that brooks are now offering a short nosed version of the B 17 in both cut out and full saddles. Brooks also has a wider colour range if that’s your need. They are both very nice saddles and butt comfort is very subjective! What would I get? Depends on the style of bicycle that you are riding!
You should do a video on how to care for leather saddles over time. I had a vintage Ideale saddle for the longest time and almost ruined in riding in the rain!
12:39 hahah
I was very curious about Berthoud saddles. You did an amazing job here. Thanks!
Gilles berthoud aspin hands down. Best saddle on earth.
Lots of mentions of the Selle Anatomica. I've used one of these leather saddles for long touring for a decade now and they really get along well with my butt. Last year I picked up the new rubber version. It rides very similar to the leather but is weather proof. The biggest difference I noticed is the damped sensation when riding on gravel compared to a leather saddle. Even with 43C tires at 35 psi the rubber saddle feels like it takes the buzz out of road surface. The saddle has reinvigorated my love for my gravel bike.
First heard about GB saddles in Bicycle Quarterly, and very much liked the look of them, but was a little put off by the price.
I've tried a B17 in the past, but really didn't get on with it.
So it's great to hear your comparison between Brooks and GB, which kind of confirms my thinking, and makes me want to give the Berthoud a go after all.
Thanks for another great video!
I've tried a lot of Brooks for several years, and I only got along with the Imperial versions; Flyer, Team Professional, and B17 Narrow.
I've since been using a Rivet Independence with a cut-out and it's the most comfortable saddle to me so far. It feels like a cross between the Brooks Team Pro and B17 Narrow.
I've recently tried a Gyes 06H and I've been pleasantly surprised by how well it feels and its quality considering its price.
I also ride a Rivet Independence and I think it’s the best saddle I’ve been on. Clearly a cut above any Brooks. I had a Gyes years ago and it was junk. Hopefully they’ve improved since then
If possible the next saddle update would be awesome if you did Rivet and Selle Anatomica.
I like the manner of the presentation. Very informative and well done. The missing part is the ride. Of course every "arse" is different but a ride evaluation between the two would add more credibility in my opinion. So much alike but so different.
Tricky dance to compare saddles that only have material in common. Well done. I have only one leather saddle in my quiver right now but an already a convert to the cutout. Even from internet research I saw the B-17 top contours and found them problematic and thought their cutout model to small. I went with Selle Anatomic because of their design and marketing toward rider weight. The Berthoud Aspin Open is intriguing as I am heavier and like the implementation of the cut-out.
I have never ridden on a Brooks, but I had a Berthoud on a bike previously. I liked it after it broke in a little bit. I was actually surprised at how much give it had after broken in, it was nice going over boardwalks and when one of my friends decided we should ride through a pasture for some reason.
I've had a B-17 for over 4,000 miles on my Salsa Fargo. I agree that they work well with and upright geometry. Mine felt great out of the box but then started wearing unevenly after about 800 miles. it corrected itself about 2,000 miles and rides perfect now. I think I'll cry when it finally breaks after all the ups and downs we've been through. The Berthoud is on my list for a replacement though.
I'd go for another B17
Love my b17, have many thousand miles on it. Have never ridden a Berthoud, so can’t comment. Thicker leather will definitely take longer to break in, so consider that. Of my B17 saddles, the narrow version is my favorite for long distance rides, hopefully it’s still being made.
Twenty five years ago, I was ready to buy a recumbent because I just couldn't get comfortable on a saddle. Bought a B17 from Wallingford Bicycle Parts and on my 4th ride I did 125 miles with zero pain and never looked back. But lately I have been feeling that ridge down the middle you talked about so have been looking at Rivet, SA, Spa and Giles. Tried a SA but it was way too soft but I hear they have made some improvements. But what makes me nervous with them is they want to sell a replacement skin the same time you buy the saddle. I would hope that would be something I wouldn't have to worry about for about 10 years. I can't get a response from Rivet so leaning towards the Giles. They look nice and flat as you pointed out.
Have you tried the Brooks B17 Special? The Special has copper rivets that are hand hammered, and the leather as I understand it, is a little thicker. I have never ridden a Berthoud, but the B17 Specials are by far my favorite saddles! Thanks for the great content as always!! Keep it up, and we would love to see more you and Laura content when you can do it!
The Berthoud also gives you the option to attach a click-fix adaptor. That's what the two brass inserts at the back are for. And for tensioning of the leather you can use a standard 5 mm Allen key. The leather on the Berthoud is bone-hard to start with but hopefully will last a lot longer once worn in.
My first thought was that the Berthoud frame looks more serviceable, it's cool that they have a modular accessory system too. And I don't know if the same trick works on a Berthoud, but maybe start out by de-tensioning it like you would to break in a Brooks.
I've always ridden with B17 saddles on all my bikes, including mountain bike. But you do have me intrigued by the Berthoud. I had looked at them years ago, but I was a little put off by the plastic portion in the back which made it look cheap IMOP. I may try it next time my Brooks needs replacing. Thanks for your review!
I wouldn't bother to replace - you have the best.
Hi Russ good day .. Gb Aspin is better than the B17 special . i been using my aspin saddle for a long time now i loved this saddle it gets better with every ride very comfortable even without chamois . its more expensive but its worth it .
I had a B-17 toured twice across the country on it happily for thousands of miles but at some point on both tours I'd get trouble with it and it would feel like riding a broomstick and it would press hard on me where the cutout would be except I didn't have the one with the cutout and the Brooks cutout looks too small anyway. I'd try adjusting the tension without really understanding what I was doing. It would improve a bit and I'd continue. In the end it was painful for even a short ride and I swapped it for a very minimal very light saddle and I really appreciate how much easier it is to squeeze into a bike box for air travel compared to the Brooks. I wouldn't get another Brooks leather which is funny to say after liking it a lot for such a long way The other one yes I'd be tempted to try it
Unrelated to these I’ve been using those Spoon saddles you suggested years ago. They’re a good price and they work well with my buns.
I have owned 6 Brooks saddles throughout my 45 years of cycling. B17, Pro, Swift, B17 with coil springs. Mt biking, Road Touring, Bikepacking, Road racing commuting. Always on a Brooks of different models. 2 of the brooks were replace at no charge because a rail broke. Very odd that this happened to me on 2 different saddles. I have never weighed over 175 lbs. 2 saddles have airline cracks in the leather back between the rear rivets. This is probably my fault for not keeping up on the leather treatment. I do adjust the tension randomly about every 2-3 years of use (1/2 to 1 full rotation on the tension screw) and always try my best to keep them covered and protected from rain when I'm not riding. That said if my house started on fire the family photos and the Brooks saddles would be the first items I would grab. Never had an issue with break in of both presoftened or regular leather saddles. I've only tried 1 other brand of heavy leather saddle (Selle Anatomica). Not close to the comfort of the Brooks.
I've been having an eternal battle whether to buy a Gillies Berthoud. I ride a Swift right now and it fits well(ish) I'm afraid to jump to a Gillies Berthoud but I think that cutout will solve most of my issues. The Journey in finding the "perfect" saddle is long and painful. The most comfortable saddle I've ever rode was some cheap Chinese full carbon saddle that broke after 500Km But man it was comfortable, I'm looking for something that will stand the test of time. Great video, covers a lot of specs that people wonder, I actually emailed Gilles Berthoud about 6 months ago asking about the adjustability on the rails because I needed quite a bite of set forward on my bike packing rig. Those are the questions people wonder and I'm shocked it's not included in the product desciption.
I have bought off Aliexpress, no name copy of Brooks for $33 including shipping. Applied vaseline and hot air with a hair dryer to weatherize and now it has a natural tan color to it. It is still a cowhide saddle as good as the original.
Team Berthoud. Found it too hard at first and took it off, but tried it again later and the shape just worked better than a b17.
Spot on about up-angling the B17. Counter-intuitive but it puts you in the "hammock." B17 must just fit my shape, because I've ridden one for years, never with a chamois and I rarely notice it. (also - that Rivendell is gorgeous! wow)
I have a B17 thats great but have ended up with 5 Selle Anatomica saddles. I buy one for every build I do and have to say they work fresh out of the box.
Brooks quality took a huge nosediver ever since they were bought by Selle Italia, and now they offer a bunch of crazy colors & sizes & options, just a crazy number of things that don't matter, but lower quality overall (thinner leather is only on recent Brooks saddles). If the saddle is too stiff you can get a titanium B17 - about the same price as the Berthoud, and significantly more comfortable because the rails flex a lot more! Also if the flare of the B17 is too much, you can either get a B17 special (with chamfered skirt), push the saddle back by 1 inch and ride closer to the front, or get a Brooks Professional (significantly more narrow) or even a swift (a cut-down version of the Pro). I like that you can push back on a brooks during a ride and "ride up on the hill" from the back of the saddle.
The B17 with cut-out is available for a better comparison. Also the narrow version.
When I modified my B17, by making a similar cut-out, I found that the "hump" disappeared and the seat flatter, and I added side lacing.
And somehow Rivet saddles remain a mystery. So many models, yet so much silence.
I have a Rivet Independence and it’s my favorite saddle. Never been on a GB, but the Rivet seems comparable in every way and it is clearly better than any Brooks I’ve owned.
See my comment above about effective saddle width. Beyond that, Rivet laminates the leather to a waterproof underside material, making the saddle far less comfortable than the Brooks or SA. I sent mine back for a full refund.
@@jbwillson It’s weird how we all have such different experiences with these things. The Rivet fits me like a glove and I’m so happy it doesn’t stretch as fast as a Brooks/Selle Anatomica.
@@WordupG I'm glad it works for you. I really wanted the Rivet to work, but like the Brooks, I was sitting on the frame. The Rivet folks are delightful about returns, and said they're talking about making a wider saddle.
Saddles are such a personal thing, it's very difficult to be objective about them. I ride a B.17 and two C.17s and am very happy with both. A 40gram is hardly a thing to lose sleep about - !
Yeah saddle reviews are difficult I’m sure. Have my own experiences with the two saddles and landed on one that works for me. It’s an expensive game of trial and error. Advice to shoppers get used off eBay to try out and if you like it then get a fancy new one.
I have variants of the B17 on most of my bikes. They range from comfortable to cushy. I have one honey model on my road bike that still seems to be pretty stiff with no sign of getting the indents from my sit bones (but it does have a lovely patina). I have another one in black, in theory the same saddle but it has developed the perfect amount of flex. I am sure there is some difference due to the cut of leather used. Also just built up a Straggler with a "Persons" brand knockoff of a B17 that I picked up for a mere $50. Close to a B17 on my 11 mile shakedown cruise, but I'll see how it feels after a few hundred.
Any saddle that has a taint bridge is pure torture for me. I'm so glad a lot of saddle makers are compensating for this. Lots more options out there nowadays.
Right at 40,000 miles on my Brooks when it died, and Ive been looking for the Berthoud after seeing it and forgetting the name. Just gotta save up them duckets!! Fixin guitars aint as lucrative as you might think!
Yes I do get thigh chaffing, thank you for pointing that out. Like that you can swap out the leather rather than buying a new saddle. That actually sounds like a cost saving
I have a Selle Anatomica. It looks very similar to the Berthoud with a cutout
Love my selle A
See also: Selle SMP. Have 3 of these. Yes, saddles are subjective but Selle SMP remove a lot of that subjectivity by categorising their saddles by sit bone size, purpose, sit angle, rider weight, etc. Best ergonomic saddles in my experience and I’ve been through a lot on my way to get there.
@@3232groundhog SMP was a arse hatchet for me.
Thanks for doing this comparison Ive learned something.
You're right, Berthoud Aspin is definitely closer to the Brooks Team Pro than the B.17. B.17s stopped working for me. All my bikes now have Berthoud Aspins or the Ti railed Aravis.
I love my B17 on my touring bike. I ride it without bib shorts. On my road bike I have narrow racy saddle and ride it with bibs. Apples and oranges
I’m running the Brooks Swift on my trail mtg. I get weird stares and questions all the time, but in all honesty, I feel like that craftsmanship of a leather saddle is somewhat special compared to the foam/rubber/plastic saddles from top brands.
I've been a Brooks user for 25 years, never tried a Berthoud. I've missed a mention to the adjustable front bolt in the B17 to tight the leather through the years. Anyway, thanks for the video, like your content.
In the seventies my first 10-speed came with a wrights leather saddle. I didn't find it comfortable until I got caught in a soaking rain. The wet saddle conformed perfectly to my but then and I found it very comfortable after that. It looked like hell stretched and deformed but felt so Good! So if you find a leather saddle uncomfortable give it a good soak and ride it for about an hour to conform it to you.
You don’t need to do that. It is better to ride longer without soaking it. It will break in just fine, if you have patience.
You left out a critical objective measurement. Turn the saddle over and measure the distance between the horns of the cantle (frame). That - more than the placement of the rivets - shows the usable width of the saddle. I’ve not tested a Berthoud, but I finally figured out why my Brooks saddles weren’t breaking in to my 140mm sit bone width: the gap between the horns of a Brooks frame is only about 125mm. I was actually sitting on the frame of the saddle. Ouch. That means about 50mm (2 inches!) of the Brooks is effectively wasted width compared to a more modern saddle. Rivet and Selle Anatomica saddles work the same way. For those of us with wider pelvises, none of these leather saddles will ever break in.
Have you found anything that does work for you? I am in the same position and ride at ~60º. It seems like everything wider is for 90º riders only.
@@urbaninterlude I have been using an Ergon SMC for a year now. Best saddle I've ever used. Longest rides so far: 4 hours. I like the shape of all the Ergons, but the SMC is just the right amount of softer.
@@urbaninterlude The Berthoud Vars is basically a B18, and I put it on every bike from road racers to 29+. There is also the resurrected Ideale Model 90. I’m waiting for the 92 which comes out it 2023. It’s not a racing saddle but it’s the only saddle that has never given me issues.
I have a Taiwanese leather saddle that cost 130 Dollarydoos. It's lovely. I think that's about 80 USD for you good people. It is very new so I can't comment on its durability but it is getting a work out. Love the Soft Cell reference 👍
Rivet saddles are made-in-the-USA and feature thick, quality leather like a Berthoud. I have their Independence saddle and it’s the best I’ve ever ridden. Consider them as well, if you’re in the market for a leather saddle.
I wanted to love my Brooks, but I cycle in a lot of hot weather and the leather dye would not stop leeching off of the saddle onto whatever (non-lycra, non-chamois) shorts or pants I was wearing. I started to just constantly keep a rain cover on the Brooks to preserve my garments.
I've been a fan of Brooks saddles for quite some time, specifically the B17/C17 series. I have wanted to try the Berthoud, but after seeing this review and the shape, I think I will pass. I've spent some time on a Brooks Swift and Swallow and they are just too narrow for my seat anatomy to be comfortable on for any period of time and this Berthoud seems to be similar in shape. . I have a Selle Anatomica on one of my bikes, and while it is a nice saddle (and MUSA if that matters to you) and works well with my anatomy, I found that the leather is thinner than what Brooks uses and tends to deform/stretch faster.
I have one or two bikes that have leather B17 on them now, but a good number of my "used for high mileage days" rides are sporting C17, either with or without the cutout. I've managed to buy most of mine used from people that have tried them and not liked them, so it hasn't meant spending an arm and a leg to get similar saddles on my bikes.
As always, great review! Very tough subject! I have a brooks swift. Love it. Seems like it’s quite different then the b17.
The general shape of the Berthoud looks more like an Avocet Touring model than any other leather saddle I've seen
my brooks are very comfortable, with the way I fit, I did have to use seat posts with 32-35 mm set back, you don't get a lot of fore aft movement on the brooks with many seat posts..
Will order a Brooks Flyer for my touringbike, hopefully it will cushion my little bottom over bumpy roads!
Thanks for the review. Breaking in leather saddles, does it make a difference to wear trousers with chamois or should you avoid those?
Just a hunch here, but if your goal is to break the saddle in so that it’s comfortable to ride without a chamois, I’d break it in without a chamois. If you’re always going to wear padded shorts then it probably doesn’t matter.
It took me about 500 more kilometres to break in my Berthoud than my Brooks... but it was worth the wait.
It might be just me but almost every photo I see of a Brooks equipped bike has the saddle tilted nose up. Sometimes VERY nose up. I have an old Bridgestone XO-3 that I equipped with a B-17. The only way I could stop CONSTANTLY sliding forward on the saddle was to tip it nose up to the point of it pressing into uncomfortable areas. Sold it on EBAY and have been noticing nose up B-17's on bikes ever since. I'll take a WTB Volt any day. No silly proofide treatments or tension adjustments needed. And a FRACTION of the weight. And available in several widths. And reasonably priced. And....
I am a heavy guy at 120kg and have been riding Brooks since almost 30 years, typically Team Professional. But the frames keep breaking. Brooks offers spare parts, but putting in new rivets is a pain. I also tried a Cambium, but there the top disintegrates. Now, if a could put leather on a Cambium frame! I switched to Berthoud now. Let's see how they hold up.
In the past, Brooks supplied spare rivets if needed. It's not a hard thing to replace. Not sure if they still do that, but it was an expected repair on a well ridden saddle.
Great video! LOVE my B-17 black saddle. Helped me greatly on my PGH DC yearly bike trips in 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 :) I would like to try some Ergon saddles since I love their GP5 grips small (so many hand positions).
After trying LOTS of saddles, including Brooks, SA, and Rivet, I have settled (literally and figuratively) on an Ergon SMC. The Ergon SR and SM saddles are really good, too, but the SMC has the additional padding my aging butt needed. The SMC is far and away the most comfortable saddle I’ve ever ridden.
The Brooks B17 Imperial has laces holding the sides together, so it doesn't flare out.
You should’ve compared like for like and got the Brooks Imperial model
I told them to send the non-cut out version. Not my fault.
I've had an older Brooks for years that sometimes gets swapped in, and between my experience with that and your review I can confidently say that the Berthoud would likely be a better option for me. But... I just can't get over the plastic part; weight savings isn't a benefit to me and plastic bits are a major turn off. So, guess I'm sticking to my Terry Liberator Y and not getting a new leather saddle this year.
I've owned one, or multiple of just about every model of brooks saddle. And I've managed to wear out almost all of them after so many years of riding. I've only owned one berthoud for a couple years now and so far and I've found it a finer, longer lasting, and more comfortable saddle than any brooks I've had. Brooks are great: they are comfortable, and last a long time. I'm clearly a fan.
But if you find GB isn't comfortable or durable enough, GB is even better.
Have you tested/tried a Selle Anatomica? I got one on a used bike a few years ago and instantly fell in love. Similar to the Berthoud but more affordable.