I've found Neil Stanbury's recommendation of heel to pedal then drop it 30 mm and raise by 3 mm at a time till you feel the flicker at the bottom of the stroke to be the one that got me closest. I did some small adjustments from there. Recently however I just tried 5 different saddles. Using the same measurement didn't work because the foam cushion is different as well as saddle flex and curvature. What works for me is to go slightly low and raise till I feel myself moving forward on the saddle instead of sitting at the back. That brings perennial pressure, neck, upper back and hand discomfort. I drop it a millimeter or so below that when all those things relax and feel comfortable. If I'm too low, I get too much pressure in the sit bones, lower back discomfort and my arms are stretched out. I will save this video though. I'm curious to see what angle I'm at.
Yes - hat tip to Neill. If you are a rider well in tune with your body (body aware), then his strategy is an excellent one, however most people would not necessarily identify this change over point easily, by themselves. Neill can, because he has a lifetime of professional experience.
@@podiumphysio657 As new rider at 60, that was fitted at my LBS using the protractor/plumb bob, and various measurements, I began developing pain in the rear of my left (nondominant) knee (hamstring tendon). Just today I used Neill's methods of lowering my saddle 20mm from original, then raising it 3mm at a time. I was amazed at how, even as an inexperienced rider, I was able to feel the difference in just 3mm. When I got to the third change, to 9mm up from the low starting point, I felt like I was pedaling circles and my hand pressure felt lighter. When I went to 12mm I began to feel as if I was pedaling ellipses, which I equate to what Neill describes as "flicker" at the bottom of the stroke. I went back to the 9mm mark and rode another 10-15 miles at a "decent" pace for me, and didn't have the burning quad feeling I had had before. This was all done on a level school track (waiting on an adapter for my trainer) as opposed to my previous riding which had been on a paved bike path with a good bit of elevation change. So, will still need to experiment a bit, but I think I'm now at a MUCH better starting point by following Neill's advice and going by feel, than I did as the bike was setup by my LBS. I will definitely save this video, and will be looking on Amazon for the BT shutter trigger! Looking forward to trying your technique and comparing the angles obtained as I continue to experiment, and as my strength and technique improves. Thanks for providing this information and the details of how to go about it. Very well presented! ETA: Just ordered the trigger and downloaded the protractor extension. Will be following your instructions later this week once the trigger and my thru-axle adapter arrives for my trainer. 👍
@@podiumphysio657 Well if you can't identify or feel whether your fit is bad then it obviously can't matter if it is bad or not. Otherwise it's absurd to suggest that a rider can't tell whether their saddle is comfortable or not and they need someone else to set up an expensive 3d capture system to tell you. In fact the only person who knows how their saddle *feels* is the rider, not some self-proclaimed 'expert' who is watching them ride. And, I'd say most people looking for a bike fit will have some issue they feel suggesting the idea you need to be 'body aware' laughable hippy claptrap. Someone with saddle sores, knee or back pain, saddle discomfort is more than fucking aware of that. Now, of course, all of the methods created by people fitting other people are going to be based on visual cues - because that's all they can do - look at the rider. That doesn't mean these methods are superior. They obviously are not. Bike fitting would work better if you could feel and experience what the rider feels and experiences - in the same way that a doctor would probably find it easier to diagnose patients if he could feel their symptoms rather than simply observe or have them described to them. Of course this is not possible which is why we fall back on the 2nd best methods - however it's a big mistake when you delude yourself that the 2nd best method is better. Bottom line though : if you want to create videos telling people how to set their own saddle height or use clickbait titles to get views riders need to be told how it should feel not how it should look - because they are feeling what it's like to pedal but they cannot see themselves riding their bike. And if that's what Neill does - that is why - because he's smart enough to realise telling someone their leg needs to be at a a particular angle is useless information.
@@podiumphysio657 I don't disagree with you. Feeling that flicker or instability at the bottom of the stroke is actually difficult. For me its a lot easier to go by the other things I mentioned. Since excessive saddle height leads to me sliding forward in the saddle and the saddle just starts to feel like an uncomfortable object causing pressure rather than actually feeling like a saddle along with the other issues I mentioned. I feel it's easier to go by those. Along with reaching to the pedals causing the hips to rock and it being hard to ride a nice stable straight line. It's a lot of trial and error and watching bike fitting videos to understand what effects what and what to look for. Certainly easier to pay a fitter. I think your recommendation plus keeping an eye out for these things could work well together in finding what works for someone if they don't wish to spend money on a fitter.
Great video, thank you for your time. At 71, and road bike days in the past, I stick to drop bar mountain bikes and one brand of flat pedals, one brand of trail running shoes, and a Brooks B-17 saddle. KISS principle I guess. I started in the 1980's with Greg's method .883 x inseam. Campy Record pedals, Sidi leather shoes, our wool tights had a thin leather chamois, again KISS principle as DIMS stayed pretty constant back then. Over the last 45 years my SH has stayed within 5-6mm of 1980. BUT... Reach and Handlebar Height have been all over the map as old injuries, surgeries, and arthritis start to play games with me. "Keep moving or they'll start shoveling dirt in your face".
Thanks Mike. I love hearing from riders that are still going into their 70s and beyond! I believe that age is a state of mind and fully agree that we need to keep moving - pretend we are still young regardless of how many laps of the sun.
@@podiumphysio657, well here's one more rider in the same age range as mike above. I've been adjusting my saddle over a period of months with two different (but similar looking) saddles and recording all the important parameters. It turns out that, by trial-and-error only, no preconceived numbers, my ideal (i.e., comfortable) saddle height is the number calculated by Lemond's method almost to the half centimeter.
Excellent video. I am going to tried this. I built my own goniometer with a protractor and have my one of my children measured me in a static position. I am going to try the video version. When I got back into cycling 20 years ago, I had two bike fits done, and they were useless. I had a custom bike made but since then I have been tweaking my position with every saddle change, etc.
Hi Jeff. Thanks so much for your kind gesture. It really means a lot to me that someone would not only watch the video but make a donation afterwards. Bless!
... Or draw the reference lines on your own leg, bend a bit of stiff wire to the required angle and adjust saddle height until reference lines match bent wire. All you need is a mirror...
I never realized such a Chrome extension exists! Thank you for pointing this useful tool out. With respect to the target of 38 degrees, one has to keep in mind that that number is the value with the highest likelihood of being correct, given that the individuals needing bike fits are normally distributed. But the people who show up for bike fits tend top be those who have problems. So there may be other reasons not accounted for in the sample such that 38 degrees is not the best angle for them like low flexibility, or even a less-than-ideal frame size due to excessively long or short limbs. In that case, I think it is just better to fit according their needs, or what feels best, without any regard to the numbers. This is what bike fitters spend time figuring out.
Yes there are infinite variables in a bike fit. I'm just giving a "better" option to the inseam and back pedal methods, in case someone wants to spend zero dollars on a bike fit and just have a go themselves.
If we constrain the knee joint angle to 38deg, and assume the rider is completely rigid, then we can rotate the entire body around the pedal at 6'o'clock: the arc swept by the saddle position will form an envelope of many positions all of which satisfy a knee angle of 38 degrees. How then do you decide which of these is "correct"? Whatever has the saddle mounted in the middle of the rails? Saddle slammed forward and seat extension raised to set knee angle to 38 degrees? All the above is unsatisfying as an answer to "perfect saddle height".
Yes, just like every other saddle height measuring method, this process only covers one variable. I haven't tried to produce a complete saddle setting guide here.
I have never had to worry about figuring out saddle height, my knees will tell me. There's about 2mm window where both are happy, lower than that my left complains, higher than that my right complains.
You've told us how to measure the angle. What's the adjustment? Higher saddle height to increase the angle and lower to decrease? Any suggestion on by howe much?
So if we accept the premise that 38 degrees is our goal angle, then if you had, say 42 degs, then you have "too much bend" and would need to raise the saddle. If you had say, 32 degrees, then you have "too little bend" and you would need to lower the saddle. How much you raise or lower is very individualistic, as some people will immediately make compensations at the ankle, or by moving on the saddle, and others will just change how much the knee bends. It really is different for eveyone.
Would this work for a mountain bike? My left foot goes numb after about 4 miles. I’ve tried all the tricks still no change. There are no fitters where I live. Riding is almost no fun anymore due to my foot going numb.
Hi Kelly. Like I said in the video, there are any number of reasons why a bike fitter might choose not to head towards a 38 degree angle at the knee at BDC, however I think it would be reasonable to try it and see if it helps.
Speaking from decades of experience here I'll add 2 more ever changing variables noted particularly by Chris Froome in the Tour de France but experienced by many of us mortals as well: resting hip angle and hamstring tightness/length. As the Tour went on Froome's hamstrings would tighten and he'd lower his saddle more and more. This was noticable watching on TV and his mechanics would try to limit his tinkering. Start a Yoga or Pilates program and I guarantee your fit will be altered.
Interesting. I'd never noticed that or heard that about Froome. He is definitely an outlier in relation to cadence, and he used oval rings?? so I wonder if these issues contributed to the hamstring shortening? Agree that a yoga or pilates program would change fit, and would go further to say that most riders would benefit performance wise also.
I set my seat height to where I can barely touch the ground with the first inch and a half of the front part on the sole of my shoes, works ok for me on all my bikes and that's how I've always adjusted my seats when I started doing it myself as a teenager but I might try this when I have what I'd need and see if it works better to be more comfortable and put out more power.
Usually if you can touch the ground with your both feet when on saddle, your saddle is too low. This practice is common with inexperienced cyclists, because they like to feel safe when they stop, ironically by making themselves less stable. How to stop safely is the first thing I teach folk re learning good cycling technique - When you stop, you should lean bike to way over to the left [for roads where you drive on left], so away from traffic and then place foot firmly on floor, not just tippy toes. Your other foot should be on saddle at around the two o'clock or pedal ready position. This makes both putting other foot down and setting off much easier. This way you have a very solid tripod like base, rather than the wobbly toes just touching the floor stance. Even better, just get off the saddle when foot is placed on floor to lower centre of gravity further. Not to mention bottom bracket height off ground varies a lot between bikes which will alter saddle/pedal position considerably.
I have a more professional and simpler principle of bicycle saddle height. 1) Saddle height should be as high as possible, but God forbid not too high. Simple as that. 2) Pedalling heals up or heals down isn’t acceptable by any means. When pedalling, if the goal is to utilise all the power of your pedalling, heals must be in neutral position and feet more or less parallel to the ground. 3) How you achieve this it isn’t our business, we leave it to the imagination of each rider, as long as you achieve those principles you will be riding like a pro.
I've seen about a 30 degree variation between cyclists' foot angle to the horizontal at the 3 O'Clock position. It definitely is a non standardised metric.
No one ever measured degrees, it’s useless and unnecessary. One just has to realise, that his position on a bike and pedalling is way more important than light carbon frames, expensive group sets etc., and take saddle height and position seriously by dedicating time and making experiments on themselves.
@@tongotongo3143 Well I measure degrees, and all of the bike fitters that I know in Australia measure degrees, so I'm afraid I cant agree with your opening statement. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. It is a free world (on the internet at least)
Well… you are a bike fitter, it’s very attractive modern business scheme, but this also makes you biased because you have your strong interest and agenda. While in my case I have found my position on a bike by myself through studies, calculations, experiments, observations. So yes, I am entitled to have opinion on this topic, and my opinion is legitimate because I have achieved the desired result.
@@tongotongo3143 As far as I am concerned your opinion and my opinion have equal legitimacy. Not sure what you think my strong interest and agenda is. I'm interested in helping people by providing free information.
These bike fitters always try to make their job look like some type of incredible difficult and sensitive process. There is no perfect position, only compromise. Simply because there is more than just one goal you want to achieve. You want to go fast with relative comfort. Therefore compromise. Just use the basic tricks for setting up your bike and tweak with small steps if you want to change anything.
They really try to make a science/art out of it don't they? Makes you wonder if people who need a "professional" bike fit go to their car dealership to adjust their driver seat, steering wheel, rear view mirrors and program their radio stations 😂😂
No, what is needed in the bicycle world is mechanical refinement -- less carbon fiber, etc., and the adoption of a dynamic system that self-adjusts to the rider position per their fatigue, flexibility, course (hills, etc.). Would involve seat fore and aft, height, and for extra points, pedal cleat position. Real trick would be the sensors to determine rider state: fatigue, flexibility, etc. Now, that is a growth avenue for the bicycle world.
lemond method is outdated, pogacar for example rides 3.2 cm lower than the inseam method would advise. at the end of the day, bike fitting is also about allowing to close your eyes, feel into your body and trust what is right, besides all the numbers and possible confusion. the lemond method is imo just a guide line, not an instruction on how to set your saddle height.
The description of your method has a significant flaw. In your DIY instructions, your rider is sitting upright, holding the brake hoods...this is likely the worst aerodynamic rider position possible. If your rider assumed a position in the drops, with forearms parallel to the ground, the necessary forward rotation of the pelvis would effectively shorten the leg (as the head of the femur moves deeper into the hip), your rider is already at the absolute high end of tolerable height, evidenced by the max extension of the hamstring, making this aerodynamic position prohibitively high and uncomfortable. This flaw in setup and corresponding seat height is likely as much as 2cm too high. When the seat is too high the over-extension of the hamstring limits the control of this posterior chain to support the pelvis, causes rocking, and results in pain, this is accentuated under load and the reason poorly fitted riders with seat too high are not able to ride in an aerodynamic position in the drops. Further evidence of this can be observed watching professional riders, who comfortably spend hours under high load in the drops, they do not have over-extended hamstrings like those of your model in the video. I suggest redoing the setup in the drops and compare the 2 resulting heights (perhaps consider also including video of each as opposed to still image), this would provide valuable info to your viewers as well as an improvement to your method.
Hey Steve, With my hips, it has been years since I spent any time in the drops. However I agree that if your preferred riding style is in the drops then you may want to use this method while your hands are positioned at the lowest part of the bars. I always fit based around riding on the hoods as this is where people ride when they need maximum control of braking and gear shifting.
@@podiumphysio657 Fair enough for your particular movement issue, but do you see the obvious flaw with defining a method that optimizes seat height for a non-optimal riding position? One significant reason why people do not ride in the most ideal ergonomic position with hands located for operating brakes /shifters, as designed by manufacturers, on the drops, is exactly because seat height advice is flawed and results in excessive seat height. As bike fitters we should make an effort to normalize holding bars in the drops, or at the very least not the tops with forearms parallel to the ground, for the best position for control, handling, and aero performance by setting seat height and setback to optimize a balanced, sustainable riding position there…Defining seat height for the least optimal position making it uncomfortable to be even modestly aero is not ideal and certainly contradicts the video title claiming "perfect saddle height"
@@kiwisteve408 Hey Steve. You are also a bike fitter? TBH the clients I see are not optimising for aero, they are optimising for comfort and longevity in their cycling. I really cant see myself or my clients getting to forearm parallel in the drops. I'll have to pay more attention when I get back into my group rides, but my impression is that riders mainly get into the drops in steady state cycling, ie when they are unlikely to to need to brake or shift. I just dont see my guys in the drops when the riding gets technical. But maybe thats your point? They are in the wrong position on their bike to start with? Or maybe we are all too old to worry about it 🙂
@@podiumphysio657 Yep, bike fitter, 35+ years, and riding/racing across most cycling and triathlon disciplines. As a clarification, road brake levers were designed to be used in the drops, the "hands on hoods" modification that is common today arose well after the original design and, while this is well supported by modern ergonomic handle and hood design, it is not the primary design function. The best brake design for upright riding is MTB levers. So, actually, the poorer functional hand position on the hoods would be better suited to steady-state riding that does not require quick and accurate control. There is plenty of evidence to support this: look at any competitive race that requires quick, accurate control, such as a criterium and you will not see a single rider holding anywhere but the drops in critical control situations. And, yes, that is my point, that if we set up riders for upright, on the hoods, riding we leave the saddle uncomfortably high to ride in the correct, aero, balanced position. I'd l;like to offer a more representative title to your video as "Perfect saddle height method for non-competitive, upright riding, or mobility challenged athletes"
@@kiwisteve408 Hey Steve. Definitely see your point. I dont race much and only ever did one crit. So question - do you have any reason to think that the Lemond/ Hamley or Heel Pedal method would give a better result for riding in drops? I dont think the TH-cam algorithm would reward me for using the title you suggest LOL.
That does make things more complex, and probably outside the scope of a general advice video like this. You can either take steps to equalise leg length with shims and cleat positioning, or fit to the shorter leg, or both.
@@podiumphysio657 Many thanks for the reply. Leg length discrepancy is about the only thing I have in common with Eddy Merckx! Personally, having sustained injuries in the past fitting to my longer leg, I now use the shorter one. Have tried shims, but they just feel a bit weird - possibly because the discrepancy lies in my femurs...
Ride your bike and adjust as needed, my height and inseam put me on a 56/Large frame, but my wingspan puts me on a 58-60/XL, after my first 100mile ride on my size Large bike my saddle was moved 2.5 inches higher than where I usually have it and I got a stem that brought the bars up 2inches and away from me 1.5 inches, now I buy bikes one size larger than what is recommended, don't be afraid to move things around, you're not going to break anything or mess anything up it's not rocket science, if it doesn't feel right or if you feel pain then make adjustments "cyclists" are some of the most closed minded "fudds" I've ever met
I think some cyclists might manage well with this sort of trial and error approach, however for most, riding 100miles/ 160 km with a notably incorrect bike fit would likely lead to injury
Perfect saddle height is overrated, and it's not as important as setback and tilt. And it depends on your flexibility, your foot angle, the stack height of your pedals, cleats, and shoes, and cleat position. If you have to tilt it down, or your crotch hurts, or you're consistently sitting on the nose, or you have to rock your hips or point your toes to pedal through the bottom of your stroke, or you have to stop pedaling momentarily hitch up your butt to get back in the saddle after standing, it's most likely too high. If you're quads hurt or you're losing too much power, especially on hills or against crosswinds, it's probably too low. And it's better to err a little on the side of too low than too high.
What makes me laught is most Asian people had height around 155-170cm but most bike shop sell 170mm crank arm? It should be around 150-165mm. Very...very rare to found out that number in market. & When it exist just for war price market only!!!
@@podiumphysio657 I hate this phrase - 'Practice makes perfect' Vast amounts of poor practice will only inculcate bad habits and poor techniques. You need to practice well, not lots When I first learnt Lindy Hop, I religiously practiced what we were taught before realising the teacher along with many other UK instructors had the footwork basics all wrong, They used 6 beat foot patterns for beginners and then 8 beat patterns for more experienced dancers. The idiotic reasoning was that six steps were easier than eight because it was a smaller number. Sigh! Not when dancing to 8 beat music it isn't, because you are constantly out of phrase and it feels wrong. 6 beat patterns are in fact advanced techniques and usually mixed with another 2 beats to stay in musical phrase. This initial core practice which was wrong, still affects my dancing now because I worked so hard at nailing that bad technique.
The way I use it is to first set it so that my legs are fully extended, then lower it 5mm from there. If it feels uncomfortable while riding, continue lowering it by 5mm.
It's shocking how convoluted and expensive these methods are. Much easier way. Raise the saddle in 1 mm increments until you can no longer keep your hips stationary at 150 rpm, then lower to the previous position.
That is great in theory, however the rocking will increase incrementally. So the question becomes "how much rocking" is ok? IME many people that are not super experience wouldnt know if they were rocking or not.
@@podiumphysio657 Many people will never reach 150 rpm in the first place, or if you ride track you may require 200 rpm. But speed exposes everything. At your normal cadence it is too easy to compensate. Kind of like your front loading washer on the fastest spin cycle with one bath towel instantly goes from a little vibration to shaking the whole house. Anyway, always worked for me. Try it on yourself with the champagne pyramid test, it could at least make an entertaining video.
Well I am assuming that you have an indoor trainer and an ipad. If you dont have those things then yes there would be some expense to bear. If you have those 2 things the rest of the items are very cheap.
![Super Bike Vs... [2 Hour+ Compilation]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EacOBLOf_i8/mqdefault.jpg)
I've never seen anyone explain saddle height like this before. Thank you.
Glad you found the video useful
Spectacular!!!👏👏👏
Thanks for your gift. You are the second person ever to send me a "super thanks". I really appreciate your kindness.
Great Movie !!!! Thanx for your efforts in preparation and sharing with cycling community! :)
Glad you found it useful Tomas. Thanks for your feedback.
I've found Neil Stanbury's recommendation of heel to pedal then drop it 30 mm and raise by 3 mm at a time till you feel the flicker at the bottom of the stroke to be the one that got me closest. I did some small adjustments from there. Recently however I just tried 5 different saddles. Using the same measurement didn't work because the foam cushion is different as well as saddle flex and curvature. What works for me is to go slightly low and raise till I feel myself moving forward on the saddle instead of sitting at the back. That brings perennial pressure, neck, upper back and hand discomfort. I drop it a millimeter or so below that when all those things relax and feel comfortable. If I'm too low, I get too much pressure in the sit bones, lower back discomfort and my arms are stretched out. I will save this video though. I'm curious to see what angle I'm at.
Yes - hat tip to Neill. If you are a rider well in tune with your body (body aware), then his strategy is an excellent one, however most people would not necessarily identify this change over point easily, by themselves. Neill can, because he has a lifetime of professional experience.
@@podiumphysio657 As new rider at 60, that was fitted at my LBS using the protractor/plumb bob, and various measurements, I began developing pain in the rear of my left (nondominant) knee (hamstring tendon). Just today I used Neill's methods of lowering my saddle 20mm from original, then raising it 3mm at a time. I was amazed at how, even as an inexperienced rider, I was able to feel the difference in just 3mm. When I got to the third change, to 9mm up from the low starting point, I felt like I was pedaling circles and my hand pressure felt lighter. When I went to 12mm I began to feel as if I was pedaling ellipses, which I equate to what Neill describes as "flicker" at the bottom of the stroke. I went back to the 9mm mark and rode another 10-15 miles at a "decent" pace for me, and didn't have the burning quad feeling I had had before. This was all done on a level school track (waiting on an adapter for my trainer) as opposed to my previous riding which had been on a paved bike path with a good bit of elevation change. So, will still need to experiment a bit, but I think I'm now at a MUCH better starting point by following Neill's advice and going by feel, than I did as the bike was setup by my LBS. I will definitely save this video, and will be looking on Amazon for the BT shutter trigger! Looking forward to trying your technique and comparing the angles obtained as I continue to experiment, and as my strength and technique improves. Thanks for providing this information and the details of how to go about it. Very well presented!
ETA: Just ordered the trigger and downloaded the protractor extension. Will be following your instructions later this week once the trigger and my thru-axle adapter arrives for my trainer. 👍
@@podiumphysio657 Well if you can't identify or feel whether your fit is bad then it obviously can't matter if it is bad or not. Otherwise it's absurd to suggest that a rider can't tell whether their saddle is comfortable or not and they need someone else to set up an expensive 3d capture system to tell you. In fact the only person who knows how their saddle *feels* is the rider, not some self-proclaimed 'expert' who is watching them ride. And, I'd say most people looking for a bike fit will have some issue they feel suggesting the idea you need to be 'body aware' laughable hippy claptrap. Someone with saddle sores, knee or back pain, saddle discomfort is more than fucking aware of that.
Now, of course, all of the methods created by people fitting other people are going to be based on visual cues - because that's all they can do - look at the rider. That doesn't mean these methods are superior. They obviously are not. Bike fitting would work better if you could feel and experience what the rider feels and experiences - in the same way that a doctor would probably find it easier to diagnose patients if he could feel their symptoms rather than simply observe or have them described to them. Of course this is not possible which is why we fall back on the 2nd best methods - however it's a big mistake when you delude yourself that the 2nd best method is better.
Bottom line though : if you want to create videos telling people how to set their own saddle height or use clickbait titles to get views riders need to be told how it should feel not how it should look - because they are feeling what it's like to pedal but they cannot see themselves riding their bike. And if that's what Neill does - that is why - because he's smart enough to realise telling someone their leg needs to be at a a particular angle is useless information.
@@michael1 Whatever you rekon mate. To each their own.
@@podiumphysio657 I don't disagree with you. Feeling that flicker or instability at the bottom of the stroke is actually difficult. For me its a lot easier to go by the other things I mentioned. Since excessive saddle height leads to me sliding forward in the saddle and the saddle just starts to feel like an uncomfortable object causing pressure rather than actually feeling like a saddle along with the other issues I mentioned. I feel it's easier to go by those. Along with reaching to the pedals causing the hips to rock and it being hard to ride a nice stable straight line. It's a lot of trial and error and watching bike fitting videos to understand what effects what and what to look for. Certainly easier to pay a fitter. I think your recommendation plus keeping an eye out for these things could work well together in finding what works for someone if they don't wish to spend money on a fitter.
Great video, thank you for your time. At 71, and road bike days in the past, I stick to drop bar mountain bikes and one brand of flat pedals, one brand of trail running shoes, and a Brooks B-17 saddle. KISS principle I guess. I started in the 1980's with Greg's method .883 x inseam. Campy Record pedals, Sidi leather shoes, our wool tights had a thin leather chamois, again KISS principle as DIMS stayed pretty constant back then. Over the last 45 years my SH has stayed within 5-6mm of 1980. BUT... Reach and Handlebar Height have been all over the map as old injuries, surgeries, and arthritis start to play games with me. "Keep moving or they'll start shoveling dirt in your face".
Thanks Mike. I love hearing from riders that are still going into their 70s and beyond!
I believe that age is a state of mind and fully agree that we need to keep moving - pretend we are still young regardless of how many laps of the sun.
Age is very much NOT a state of mind. Decay and dearh are real.@@podiumphysio657
@@podiumphysio657, well here's one more rider in the same age range as mike above. I've been adjusting my saddle over a period of months with two different (but similar looking) saddles and recording all the important parameters. It turns out that, by trial-and-error only, no preconceived numbers, my ideal (i.e., comfortable) saddle height is the number calculated by Lemond's method almost to the half centimeter.
@@MrJx4000 Chalk one up for inseam x 0.883!
@@MrJx4000Higher or lower?
Excellent video. I am going to tried this. I built my own goniometer with a protractor and have my one of my children measured me in a static position. I am going to try the video version. When I got back into cycling 20 years ago, I had two bike fits done, and they were useless. I had a custom bike made but since then I have been tweaking my position with every saddle change, etc.
Good luck John. All the best with it.
Thanks
Hi Jeff. Thanks so much for your kind gesture. It really means a lot to me that someone would not only watch the video but make a donation afterwards. Bless!
Exellent instructions! That's what my bikefitter did several years ago. Now I know how to do little adaptations on my own. Thanks!
When I first started bike fitting, this is exactly what I did, and it worked great.
... Or draw the reference lines on your own leg, bend a bit of stiff wire to the required angle and adjust saddle height until reference lines match bent wire. All you need is a mirror...
Hard to do when you are pedaling at 80 RPM. The whole point of this is to avoid static measurements
I never realized such a Chrome extension exists! Thank you for pointing this useful tool out.
With respect to the target of 38 degrees, one has to keep in mind that that number is the value with the highest likelihood of being correct, given that the individuals needing bike fits are normally distributed. But the people who show up for bike fits tend top be those who have problems. So there may be other reasons not accounted for in the sample such that 38 degrees is not the best angle for them like low flexibility, or even a less-than-ideal frame size due to excessively long or short limbs. In that case, I think it is just better to fit according their needs, or what feels best, without any regard to the numbers. This is what bike fitters spend time figuring out.
Yes there are infinite variables in a bike fit. I'm just giving a "better" option to the inseam and back pedal methods, in case someone wants to spend zero dollars on a bike fit and just have a go themselves.
If we constrain the knee joint angle to 38deg, and assume the rider is completely rigid, then we can rotate the entire body around the pedal at 6'o'clock: the arc swept by the saddle position will form an envelope of many positions all of which satisfy a knee angle of 38 degrees. How then do you decide which of these is "correct"? Whatever has the saddle mounted in the middle of the rails? Saddle slammed forward and seat extension raised to set knee angle to 38 degrees?
All the above is unsatisfying as an answer to "perfect saddle height".
Yes, just like every other saddle height measuring method, this process only covers one variable. I haven't tried to produce a complete saddle setting guide here.
That’s a really good way to put it-I was thinking “yeah, but how do I get the fore-and-aft position correct?” A: go to a bike fitter.
@@stiffjalopy4189 Yup. See a professional for a professional service, or scour the internet for free DIY methods
You're right, saddle fore/aft is a big factor as well. Was waiting for a suggestion on this aspect..
@@francisaldousdionisio4742 Working on that video as we speak!
Thanks for these great tips. I will try it out and see how it matches my current static goneometer measurements and wifes video capture.
Good luck!
Very interesting. Thanks
Glad you found the video useful 😀
I have never had to worry about figuring out saddle height, my knees will tell me. There's about 2mm window where both are happy, lower than that my left complains, higher than that my right complains.
Phil Burt would call you a "Micro - Adjuster"!
If the plan is convoluted enough, trial and error start to look like the best method.😄😄😄 Saves time.
@@jack002tuber Nice one Jack
You've told us how to measure the angle. What's the adjustment? Higher saddle height to increase the angle and lower to decrease? Any suggestion on by howe much?
So if we accept the premise that 38 degrees is our goal angle, then if you had, say 42 degs, then you have "too much bend" and would need to raise the saddle. If you had say, 32 degrees, then you have "too little bend" and you would need to lower the saddle. How much you raise or lower is very individualistic, as some people will immediately make compensations at the ankle, or by moving on the saddle, and others will just change how much the knee bends. It really is different for eveyone.
Would this work for a mountain bike? My left foot goes numb after about 4 miles. I’ve tried all the tricks still no change. There are no fitters where I live. Riding is almost no fun anymore due to my foot going numb.
Hi Kelly. Like I said in the video, there are any number of reasons why a bike fitter might choose not to head towards a 38 degree angle at the knee at BDC, however I think it would be reasonable to try it and see if it helps.
You sir are a godsend. Thank you
Glad I could help. Let me know how you get on with trying this at home.
Speaking from decades of experience here I'll add 2 more ever changing variables noted particularly by Chris Froome in the Tour de France but experienced by many of us mortals as well: resting hip angle and hamstring tightness/length. As the Tour went on Froome's hamstrings would tighten and he'd lower his saddle more and more. This was noticable watching on TV and his mechanics would try to limit his tinkering. Start a Yoga or Pilates program and I guarantee your fit will be altered.
Interesting. I'd never noticed that or heard that about Froome. He is definitely an outlier in relation to cadence, and he used oval rings?? so I wonder if these issues contributed to the hamstring shortening?
Agree that a yoga or pilates program would change fit, and would go further to say that most riders would benefit performance wise also.
I set my seat height to where I can barely touch the ground with the first inch and a half of the front part on the sole of my shoes, works ok for me on all my bikes and that's how I've always adjusted my seats when I started doing it myself as a teenager but I might try this when I have what I'd need and see if it works better to be more comfortable and put out more power.
Hey Nathan. There are a lot of variables that get missed with that strategy. It probably wouldn't work well for the majority of avid cyclists.
Usually if you can touch the ground with your both feet when on saddle, your saddle is too low.
This practice is common with inexperienced cyclists, because they like to feel safe when they stop, ironically by making themselves less stable.
How to stop safely is the first thing I teach folk re learning good cycling technique - When you stop, you should lean bike to way over to the left [for roads where you drive on left], so away from traffic and then place foot firmly on floor, not just tippy toes. Your other foot should be on saddle at around the two o'clock or pedal ready position. This makes both putting other foot down and setting off much easier. This way you have a very solid tripod like base, rather than the wobbly toes just touching the floor stance. Even better, just get off the saddle when foot is placed on floor to lower centre of gravity further.
Not to mention bottom bracket height off ground varies a lot between bikes which will alter saddle/pedal position considerably.
@@JeremyLawrence-imajez More stable: step forward over the top tube with first one foot then both feet.
@@kokonanana1 no idea what you mean by that.
What I explained above is very stable.
I would say this video content is the gold standard in teaching!
Thanks Jan. Appreciate your support!
I have a more professional and simpler principle of bicycle saddle height. 1) Saddle height should be as high as possible, but God forbid not too high. Simple as that. 2) Pedalling heals up or heals down isn’t acceptable by any means. When pedalling, if the goal is to utilise all the power of your pedalling, heals must be in neutral position and feet more or less parallel to the ground. 3) How you achieve this it isn’t our business, we leave it to the imagination of each rider, as long as you achieve those principles you will be riding like a pro.
I've seen about a 30 degree variation between cyclists' foot angle to the horizontal at the 3 O'Clock position. It definitely is a non standardised metric.
No one ever measured degrees, it’s useless and unnecessary. One just has to realise, that his position on a bike and pedalling is way more important than light carbon frames, expensive group sets etc., and take saddle height and position seriously by dedicating time and making experiments on themselves.
@@tongotongo3143 Well I measure degrees, and all of the bike fitters that I know in Australia measure degrees, so I'm afraid I cant agree with your opening statement. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. It is a free world (on the internet at least)
Well… you are a bike fitter, it’s very attractive modern business scheme, but this also makes you biased because you have your strong interest and agenda. While in my case I have found my position on a bike by myself through studies, calculations, experiments, observations. So yes, I am entitled to have opinion on this topic, and my opinion is legitimate because I have achieved the desired result.
@@tongotongo3143 As far as I am concerned your opinion and my opinion have equal legitimacy.
Not sure what you think my strong interest and agenda is. I'm interested in helping people by providing free information.
These bike fitters always try to make their job look like some type of incredible difficult and sensitive process.
There is no perfect position, only compromise. Simply because there is more than just one goal you want to achieve. You want to go fast with relative comfort. Therefore compromise.
Just use the basic tricks for setting up your bike and tweak with small steps if you want to change anything.
Actually trying to show you how easy the basic bike fitter tool kit can be.
They really try to make a science/art out of it don't they? Makes you wonder if people who need a "professional" bike fit go to their car dealership to adjust their driver seat, steering wheel, rear view mirrors and program their radio stations 😂😂
@@wheelzandgillz In bike fitting, as in my profession of physio, some clients are more self sufficient whereas other clients need more help
Australia has the best, most articulate, bike fitters? Why is that? Making me want to get on a 18 hour flight just to get a bike fit
Thanks! but it only takes a few Tequilas for me to sound far less articulate!
I have paid for heaps of fits and never got anywhere. I bought an AI program and did one session in March last year and it is perfect.
What app you use?
@@cochise6345 myvelofit
Havent tried the AI programs but I imagine they will get better and better results pretty quickly with machine learning and rider feedback
Is AI program…myvelofit?
There are no AI programs that do this … it is likely written around a specific algorithm which is not AI…
Marketed as AI…
No, what is needed in the bicycle world is mechanical refinement -- less carbon fiber, etc., and the adoption of a dynamic system that self-adjusts to the rider position per their fatigue, flexibility, course (hills, etc.). Would involve seat fore and aft, height, and for extra points, pedal cleat position. Real trick would be the sensors to determine rider state: fatigue, flexibility, etc.
Now, that is a growth avenue for the bicycle world.
Sounds like you have some work to do then!
lemond method is outdated, pogacar for example rides 3.2 cm lower than the inseam method would advise. at the end of the day, bike fitting is also about allowing to close your eyes, feel into your body and trust what is right, besides all the numbers and possible confusion. the lemond method is imo just a guide line, not an instruction on how to set your saddle height.
I havent heard that stat about Pogacar but I would agree he sits fractionally lower than the median.
The description of your method has a significant flaw. In your DIY instructions, your rider is sitting upright, holding the brake hoods...this is likely the worst aerodynamic rider position possible. If your rider assumed a position in the drops, with forearms parallel to the ground, the necessary forward rotation of the pelvis would effectively shorten the leg (as the head of the femur moves deeper into the hip), your rider is already at the absolute high end of tolerable height, evidenced by the max extension of the hamstring, making this aerodynamic position prohibitively high and uncomfortable. This flaw in setup and corresponding seat height is likely as much as 2cm too high. When the seat is too high the over-extension of the hamstring limits the control of this posterior chain to support the pelvis, causes rocking, and results in pain, this is accentuated under load and the reason poorly fitted riders with seat too high are not able to ride in an aerodynamic position in the drops. Further evidence of this can be observed watching professional riders, who comfortably spend hours under high load in the drops, they do not have over-extended hamstrings like those of your model in the video. I suggest redoing the setup in the drops and compare the 2 resulting heights (perhaps consider also including video of each as opposed to still image), this would provide valuable info to your viewers as well as an improvement to your method.
Hey Steve, With my hips, it has been years since I spent any time in the drops. However I agree that if your preferred riding style is in the drops then you may want to use this method while your hands are positioned at the lowest part of the bars. I always fit based around riding on the hoods as this is where people ride when they need maximum control of braking and gear shifting.
@@podiumphysio657 Fair enough for your particular movement issue, but do you see the obvious flaw with defining a method that optimizes seat height for a non-optimal riding position?
One significant reason why people do not ride in the most ideal ergonomic position with hands located for operating brakes /shifters, as designed by manufacturers, on the drops, is exactly because seat height advice is flawed and results in excessive seat height.
As bike fitters we should make an effort to normalize holding bars in the drops, or at the very least not the tops with forearms parallel to the ground, for the best position for control, handling, and aero performance by setting seat height and setback to optimize a balanced, sustainable riding position there…Defining seat height for the least optimal position making it uncomfortable to be even modestly aero is not ideal and certainly contradicts the video title claiming "perfect saddle height"
@@kiwisteve408 Hey Steve. You are also a bike fitter? TBH the clients I see are not optimising for aero, they are optimising for comfort and longevity in their cycling. I really cant see myself or my clients getting to forearm parallel in the drops. I'll have to pay more attention when I get back into my group rides, but my impression is that riders mainly get into the drops in steady state cycling, ie when they are unlikely to to need to brake or shift. I just dont see my guys in the drops when the riding gets technical.
But maybe thats your point? They are in the wrong position on their bike to start with?
Or maybe we are all too old to worry about it 🙂
@@podiumphysio657 Yep, bike fitter, 35+ years, and riding/racing across most cycling and triathlon disciplines.
As a clarification, road brake levers were designed to be used in the drops, the "hands on hoods" modification that is common today arose well after the original design and, while this is well supported by modern ergonomic handle and hood design, it is not the primary design function. The best brake design for upright riding is MTB levers.
So, actually, the poorer functional hand position on the hoods would be better suited to steady-state riding that does not require quick and accurate control. There is plenty of evidence to support this: look at any competitive race that requires quick, accurate control, such as a criterium and you will not see a single rider holding anywhere but the drops in critical control situations.
And, yes, that is my point, that if we set up riders for upright, on the hoods, riding we leave the saddle uncomfortably high to ride in the correct, aero, balanced position.
I'd l;like to offer a more representative title to your video as "Perfect saddle height method for non-competitive, upright riding, or mobility challenged athletes"
@@kiwisteve408 Hey Steve. Definitely see your point. I dont race much and only ever did one crit. So question - do you have any reason to think that the Lemond/ Hamley or Heel Pedal method would give a better result for riding in drops?
I dont think the TH-cam algorithm would reward me for using the title you suggest LOL.
But what if you have different leg lengths?
That does make things more complex, and probably outside the scope of a general advice video like this. You can either take steps to equalise leg length with shims and cleat positioning, or fit to the shorter leg, or both.
@@podiumphysio657 Many thanks for the reply. Leg length discrepancy is about the only thing I have in common with Eddy Merckx! Personally, having sustained injuries in the past fitting to my longer leg, I now use the shorter one. Have tried shims, but they just feel a bit weird - possibly because the discrepancy lies in my femurs...
Saddle height is useless without fore/aft. They go hand in hand. Both must be correct
Both are important and inter-related variables. None of the LeMond, Hamley or back pedal method give any info on setback either
Ride your bike and adjust as needed, my height and inseam put me on a 56/Large frame, but my wingspan puts me on a 58-60/XL, after my first 100mile ride on my size Large bike my saddle was moved 2.5 inches higher than where I usually have it and I got a stem that brought the bars up 2inches and away from me 1.5 inches, now I buy bikes one size larger than what is recommended, don't be afraid to move things around, you're not going to break anything or mess anything up it's not rocket science, if it doesn't feel right or if you feel pain then make adjustments "cyclists" are some of the most closed minded "fudds" I've ever met
I think some cyclists might manage well with this sort of trial and error approach, however for most, riding 100miles/ 160 km with a notably incorrect bike fit would likely lead to injury
@@podiumphysio657 besides those in the 3rd age it really boggles my mind how much people complicate bikes
@@wheelzandgillz The simple things in life are often the best
38 deg is not a sweet spot, it has the highest probability of being ok!
Sounds like a sweet deal to me
I thought that too. 38 is too much for some and not enough for others most likely
@@jack002tuber 38 is a great place to start, but you can certainly move from there if you have reasons to
Perfect saddle height is overrated, and it's not as important as setback and tilt. And it depends on your flexibility, your foot angle, the stack height of your pedals, cleats, and shoes, and cleat position. If you have to tilt it down, or your crotch hurts, or you're consistently sitting on the nose, or you have to rock your hips or point your toes to pedal through the bottom of your stroke, or you have to stop pedaling momentarily hitch up your butt to get back in the saddle after standing, it's most likely too high. If you're quads hurt or you're losing too much power, especially on hills or against crosswinds, it's probably too low. And it's better to err a little on the side of too low than too high.
I agree that slightly too low is much preferable to slightly too high
What makes me laught is most Asian people had height around 155-170cm but most bike shop sell 170mm crank arm? It should be around 150-165mm. Very...very rare to found out that number in market. & When it exist just for war price market only!!!
100% agree. Ive made several videos about this. th-cam.com/video/-3sCebN63rI/w-d-xo.html
Saddle height is easy if you ride alot
Practice makes perfect
@@podiumphysio657 I hate this phrase - 'Practice makes perfect'
Vast amounts of poor practice will only inculcate bad habits and poor techniques. You need to practice well, not lots
When I first learnt Lindy Hop, I religiously practiced what we were taught before realising the teacher along with many other UK instructors had the footwork basics all wrong, They used 6 beat foot patterns for beginners and then 8 beat patterns for more experienced dancers. The idiotic reasoning was that six steps were easier than eight because it was a smaller number. Sigh! Not when dancing to 8 beat music it isn't, because you are constantly out of phrase and it feels wrong. 6 beat patterns are in fact advanced techniques and usually mixed with another 2 beats to stay in musical phrase. This initial core practice which was wrong, still affects my dancing now because I worked so hard at nailing that bad technique.
2 words: Dropper Post
Hmm, Hadn't thought of that!
The way I use it is to first set it so that my legs are fully extended, then lower it 5mm from there. If it feels uncomfortable while riding, continue lowering it by 5mm.
Simple - but if it works for you why not
nice boring long presentation
Thanks champ. Good on ya
@@podiumphysio657 all over you too
It's shocking how convoluted and expensive these methods are. Much easier way. Raise the saddle in 1 mm increments until you can no longer keep your hips stationary at 150 rpm, then lower to the previous position.
That is great in theory, however the rocking will increase incrementally. So the question becomes "how much rocking" is ok? IME many people that are not super experience wouldnt know if they were rocking or not.
@@podiumphysio657 Many people will never reach 150 rpm in the first place, or if you ride track you may require 200 rpm. But speed exposes everything. At your normal cadence it is too easy to compensate. Kind of like your front loading washer on the fastest spin cycle with one bath towel instantly goes from a little vibration to shaking the whole house.
Anyway, always worked for me. Try it on yourself with the champagne pyramid test, it could at least make an entertaining video.
@@sapinva ah I skipped over your point about 150 RPM. Dont think I ever got beyond 130 RPM in my best sprint effort. I'm 100% slow twitch and proud!
I have a similar method. Raise it till your hips rock, and then lower it 1 cm. Works well for me. I spin more than grind, others might want it lower.
@@jack002tuber Glad you found something that works well
A waste of 17 minutes..
So sorry for your loss. I hear you are doing great things at Apple.
17mins for a 2min process. Bs
You're Welcome
thats a lot of money to buy those things lol .. its way cheaper to go to bikefitter and know everything once for all
Well I am assuming that you have an indoor trainer and an ipad. If you dont have those things then yes there would be some expense to bear. If you have those 2 things the rest of the items are very cheap.