Stefan: Not all of us hobbyists have the money or space for CNC machines, so these techniques are absolutely still valid and useful in 2024. I can say with a fair amount of certainty, that the community here has great appreciation for you sharing these techniques, and for you sharing your many skills with us. These "old-school" techniques, combined with the capabilities of modern DROs, basically make manual machines into CNC's... Instead of stepper motors, we're just meat-servos using handles turning the screws.
I used this method once to cut a 10mm groove in a winch drum with a 3mm tool on a manual lathe, but I didn't have a DRO. I wrote a program to generate the X and Z start points, then set the tool with dial indicators. From there it was basically like cutting a big single point thread. It took me an entire day to make one part, but it worked great with no chatter like you would get with a form tool. I even cut a radius at the thread crest so there were no sharp edges. I adapted it to a CNC lathe and made hundreds of those parts that way.
There's actually a video of making those parts on a CNC lathe on my channel way way back in the archives if anyone is interested. I don't think I can post a link.
@@WatchWesWork I think I actually watched that video in the last few weeks - I was looking for something else about how to mount tools in a CNC lathe, and came across that video, and was like "well well well, look who it is..." :) I also watched the 3 or 4 part series on how to level / align a cnc lathe - I think those are your very first videos
As someone living in an alternate universe, without a cnc at hand, this is extremely valuable. Thank you for the time to make this video, it is great to see what we handwheel crankers can do.
Before I got my DRO, I used a spreadsheet to make all the points on a curved slot so I could plunge it with a drill and an end mill. I appreciate the time you taking the time to do this and it was definitely not boring. In a pinch, it is very good to have all of these skills.
Ditto. As a hairy-arsed apprentice at a dockyard in the sixties, I used these techniques… powered by sine tables and a ‘spreadsheet’. Old school for sure… but it got the job done 👍 Robert
Thank you, Stefan! This is excellent information for us old guys for whom CNC is never really going to be an option. Thanks for teaching an old dog some new tricks!
My sentiments exactly sir. 60 years old, one off repair work or some special tool to do a job. CNC makes no sense for me. However I find CNC machining interesting and certainly would embrace it were I a manufacturer.
In addition to those experienced operators laughing at you there's also a lot of home gamers watching with limited budgets and not all of us finished high school. Stuff like this is gold to us.
@@mrechbregerif you're trying to make money then CNC is a must, but for hobbyists the fact it takes longer is kind of the point as we get to spend more time doing what we want. Would be a pretty boring hobby if all you did was just plug in a bunch of code and let the machine do all the work.
I now work in an old school engineering shop and find techniques like this invaluable. Videos like this of yours and a handful of others here on TH-cam are actually part of the reason I'm there (my previous career had nothing to do with engineering), and I use what I've learned from your balanced cuts video, for example, every time I use a lathe at work and in my home shop. The pro CNC guys might watch with wry amusement, but you gotta understand that taking the time to educate the rest of us is a solid public service, so thank you.
As a hobby machinist with no immediate plans to incorporate CNC machines into my modest shop, I could easily imagine how this will be quite useful. Thanks Stefan!
I cannot thank you enough for this video. I'm not really a maker (yet), just a YT researching fanatic, and though I like learning about CNC too pre-CNC machining is where my interest really peaks. But it's getting harder to find in depth information on it.
Excellent video, I have used this technique for cutting radii in the past. No DRO but did use CAD to get the points. I always learn something from your videos, Thanks!
I was struggling to find a quick way to machine one round recess without using the rotary table.. et voila' ! Thank you Stefan, this exploration of old tecniques, for sure used and hardcoded in cam softwares, and your scientific approach are awesome ! ❤
This is great Stefan. As a full-time programmer, I've deliberately kept my small shop fully manual so I can escape from coding and computer screens. I hadn't even considered alternatives to rotary tables/indexers until I saw this. Thank you!
Been using DRO for years for rounding corners etc but had never even considered curved slots and the rest. Learned so much from that video. Thanks Stefan.
No not at all, its always good to know the basics. You give so much fantastic information in all your work that is a real Inspiration to stand again night after night in the shop on some own ideas!!
Extremely powerful techniques, especially for home gamers who can't afford CNC or are partially or wholely computer illiterate. Great video as always Stefan and thank you for this, this will definitely come in handy. 👍👍
This takes me back to high school metals/manufacturing. My teacher made us learn to layout all of the radius points by calculations on paper and then on a part. I never thought that would ever come into play, but I'll be damned if I haven't used it at least once a year for the past 20 some years. Great job explaining the manual steps!
It has been 12 years since I was lucky enough to find your amazing channel, and to this day you bring me to school with every video. Thanks for sharing and for all your efforts Stefan ❤
Fascinating stuff. I’d forgotten the emery cloth + file technique I must have been taught in school nearly 50yrs ago. One extra reason to fit DRO’s to my mill and lathe as well
Hiya Stefan, it's always a good idea to document learning materials which garner intuition to CNC-users. They'll understand their machines better! I'm sure enough people who didn't take geometry classes ended up in CNC programming somehow, and you illustrated very clearly what to look for when chasing certain end results and why it works at all. So no dismissive talk needed; complex tech is built up from, and therefore dependant on, the basics, so the basics always remain relevant to understanding high-tech :) This stuff is worth maintaining, even more today than in years past (since this way of working was closer to daily reference experience, due to the absence of convenient software) - many young adults don't remotely understand how computers work or what their limits are, how to make them do what we, humans, need... You added much value, especially in clarity with illustrations. Maybe I'm biased, since my dad used to program computers in binary, basic and assembly, and still maintains knowledge in that area. He recently added some chapter to a knowledge base on a hobby-forum for the Philips P-2000 8 bit home computer from 1981, for instance. 🤷🏼
Saw the etch-a-sketch and thought this will be a CNC conversion of one like This old Tony did. Sad it wasn't but also happy to learn so much from this video.
All very good techniques and still very useful. When I started as an apprentice I started in a shop that made some very large V-dies for bending brakes. All were done on a Planer with a 3/8" radius single point tool. This Planer was very old and had no compound tool slide, so the V-groove was cut by X/Z method. It was surprisingly efficient and produced very accurate results. Now 30 years later I still use the same technique with a DRO on a manual Bridgeport to machine a 50x50 x 25mm deep 45 degree recess in forging die I reproduce once or twice a year. I still use it because it's simple and it just works.
How awesome is that ! I don't have cnc, and my (very) little swiss mill is hard work to setup a rotary table on. You just showed me how to not have to worry about that! And on the lathe as well - fabulous! No need for a sketchy radiusing tool either.
The thing is, it is always good to know the techniques that can be used to generate complex shapes. Even if CNC is only used, understanding the origins, the geometry and a bit of maths gives understanding of the processes involved. I really enjoyed watching this video and the way Stefan unpacks the methods is great.
I've used CAD often over the years to do bolt circles, and other types of positioning on my manual mill but never thought to use it to produce coords to make shapes. The technique you showed to get these coords around a radius in Fusion was very eye opening. Thanks for the entertaining video(s) and especially for this particular nugget. I always learn something from you Stefan. Thank you!
Well done! I read somewhere in an origins of CNC article or some such, and have often repeated, that this technique is where we get the expression "Doing it by the numbers".
I saw a video a few weeks ago about CNC code to round a corner in a workpiece. I took that principle and wrote an Excel spreadsheet for the points needed and it worked well, far faster than trying to do it in CAD. The trick to using Excel is to use polar coordinates like you discussed at around 46 minutes in, you use trig to calculate the points and increment in degrees from your starting point to the ending. Once you write the spreadsheet, it takes a second to calculate your x and y or z points for any radius you want to do. You just print out the spreadsheet results and take them to the machine. Works great for coves too.
Thank you for this high value, high quality video! Not only do I not have CNC machinery, I don't even have a feature-rich DRO. I can, however, program a spreadsheet to quickly get the X,Y or X,Z coordinates and tool radius offsets for use with my very basic (aka cheap) digital scales/readouts. Cheers, F.C.
My thoughts on this are, like yours, use the spreadsheet to create the values. Since the path of the tool is a circular path the distance R between the radius of the desired curve, r1 and the tool radius r2 is simply R=r1+r2. This is then used to get the x value from the centre of the radius being cut as x=R * cos(a) and y=R * sin(a) when the tool is at angle a around the radius. In this case a=0° when the x value is at its maximum, the tool is along the x axis from the centre of the radius on the part and a=90° when y is maximum and the tool is along the y axis from the centre of the radius on the part. If you increase a by 1° for each position you will get a reasonable finish on a 10mm radius, you would probably want to increase a by 2° for a 5mm radius. Just make sure you have your spreadsheet set to use degrees not radians. When you have these calculated values you can adjust the x and y values to match where your origin is by adding or subtracting the correct value to suit. This path is for conventional cutting. The other corner can be cut from a=-270° to a=360°. It is easier to do than to explain.
My hat off to you. This was an amazing video. There is no such thing as usless knowledge and not only is it interesting to see where we came from but returning to it may not be so far away. Thank you for the knowledge!
I learned about incremental cut interpolation many years ago from one of your favourite author's books, Guy Lautard. Used it a few times since to get out of a difficult situation. This technique is excellent for manually turning old school ball end machine handles. An interesting fact about CNC machines is they NEVER produce an exact tool path only a very close approximation because the dimensional feed back can only ever approach zero error but never actually achieves zero error. This is the case for a couple of reasons. The resolution of the scales and machine repeatability due to mechanical accuracy.
Great video and impressive work! It’s fascinating to see how you combine traditional techniques with up-to-date knowledge in machining, achieving such precision even without a CNC machine. In an era where new technologies dominate, there’s great value in understanding and performing processes manually. This really highlights the importance of knowing the fundamentals. Thank you for sharing and putting effort into your explanations - truly inspiring for anyone wanting to learn the depth of the craft!
Never having been exposed to trig I find it finally useful! School in my area was for two groups, one that was college bound and the other for minimum wage workers. I got B and it has been beneficial to feed myself 😢. Thanks for the real life explanation of higher levels of math, and if you were an instructor then and then, I would be a whole lot richer man because of that exchange 😊. Stephan- every video you post makes people smarter. Thank you.
Thanks Stefan. I have neither a DRO or a ball turning attachment for my lathe. I have used a spread sheet to generate X & Y coordinates to turn ball end features. If I ever need to do that again you have inspired me to adjust my spread sheet to generate progressive tool movements and to experiment with tools that have larger nose radius. CHEERS
Used this exact function on a small mill drill to hog a large, close fitting curve out of a 2.5"x3.5x4" hunk of steel. Plunge cutting with a 5/8" end mill, worked perfectly!
This was very useful. I have a DRO with a lot of function. If I don't already have a rotary table up on the mill, this will be faster for simple radii. Thanks Stefan!
I've done this and the results were really nice - after makng a few identical parts it was getting very tempting to spend the time attaching some sort of servo or stepper motors to the handwheels, even if I wouldn't replace the acme leadscrews with ballscrews.
I knew there was a reason I was one of your patrons. excellent fucking video man. Thank you so much, this is opened up so many options that I never thought of. Thanks man.
there is no madness in learning and understanding manual ways. one of the most valuable books i found is one on restoration of machine tools, its maybe 1930 or 40. than knowledge is the best basis to understanding what modern machines are doing.
Stefan, one of my coworkers manufactured an attack/fighter bulkhead from a piece of plate using a manual Bridgeport milling machine. He held the (probably over-tight) tolerances too, in accordance with the printed bulkhead drawings. I'm not sure that he even had a DRO on that machine back then. He only did this because the aircraft OEM couldn't/wouldn't sell us one within a reasonable length of time, but he was successful, the bulkhead was. Like many other commenters here, I too very much appreciate you sharing these "old school" techniques, since I'll never be able to afford a CNC machine. Unless I'm successful in temporarily converting my 113-year-old South Bend lathe to CNC, using a 1969-1970-vintage computer as a controller, just to see if I can do it. (This lathe was originally a treadle-powered lathe, but a previous owner converted it to use an electric motor.)
As a non CNC home shop machinist, I thrive off of this information! I still use the Woodworth Circular Tables for laying out my bolt holes and drilling them on the drill press.
I am still salty at Moore filling half of the book "Holes, contours and surfaces" with the Woodworth Circular Tables, haha. But I understand that they are useful :)
Wonderfull, Thank you so much for this video, having seen your demonstration it;s so blindingly obvious but until I saw it, not an obvious purpose for the hole circle function! Too tired to go out to the lathe right now but tomorrow morning...
I made some manually-milled hyperbolic profiles for a copy attachment on my lathe to turn hyperboloidal microwave reflectors, by using incremental cuts on the mill and rotary table. It was too stressful to repeat the process for other curves, so I spent my retirement lump sum on a SYIL X5 CNC mill (the only one that would fit under the oak beam in the barn door), but it's good to know that I could do the work manually if I destroy the CNC!
If the basic skills used when the trade was first developed are forgotten who will be able to use a machine without the computer. We shouldn't become so dependent on the computer to get the job done. A few years ago I had to rebuild a garage in a place without electricity and no portable generator available, hand tools were the only option. So, that is what I used, tools my grandfather used when there was no electricity. Much more physical effort was required in that case. In the case of only having a manual machine available it's the knowledge to use the machine without its electronic brain that will get the job done. Today we still have people who have the ability and can recall the old ways. In 20 years or less there will be people trained only to program the computer. Thank you for keeping the old ways alive.
Awesome video! Clear as mud to me, then again I am not and never will be a maths wizard. You explained the processes quite well, made it easy for this old schooler to understand. It’s possible that I may give the radius approach a try because I am working on a model engine that has a few parts that have radius and I have avoided machining those parts because I don’t have a rotary table. I am not a trained machinists but I am learning as I go…failing forward to successful completion. Good thing I have a lot of scrap to work with.
I made up a personal CNC4A Toolbox app that puts all the old school technique formulas that I use once in awhile in one place to stop looking them up all the time and then improved them to make them even more useful. Using one of the tools for your video example, you would just type in some data and then it would calculate the X,Y Coordinates, Number of Steps and even the height of the cusp, etc. Allow a clean up amount, etc. Then display the list on the phone or even have it emailed some where. Change one input say because say the cusp was too high and it instantly updates. I was going to have it as a giveaway when I reached thousands of subscribers but utube is never going to let that happen.
Sometimes you have to remember the old skills to take advantage of the new ones you can have the most advanced cnc machine, but if the person behind it doesn't have the ability to use it, you won't get anywhere either
Я тоже такое делал, когда вытачивал на токарном станке ролики для ротационной вытяжки, используя для этого круглые твердосплавные пластины RPMT08 и державки SRAPR2020K08. Последовательность действий следующая: 1. При помощи SolidWorks создаётся профиль детали в соответствии с чертежом. 2. Создаётся эскиз в виде массива вертикальных линий, наложенных на профиль детали. 3. Создаётся эскиз с окружностями, центры которых привязаны к линиям, периметры соединены по касанию к профилю детали, а радиусы окружностей равны радиусу твердосплавной пластины. 4. Данный эскиз экспортируется в DXF файл. 5. DXF открывается в обыкновенном текстовом редакторе, из которого выписывается таблица с фактическими координатами отверстий. Таким образом перемещение по координате Z будет соответствовать шагу, на котором были расположены линии массива, а значение координаты X будет соответствовать фактическому значению положения центра окружности. Таким же образом можно делать матрицы и пуансоны продольных гибочных штампов на строгальном станке.
Great stuff. I still draw stuff out on graph paper and use CAD to figure stuff like this out. Sometimes it really is the fastest way to do semi-precise work. I try to work stuff like this in during long runs on the cnc.
Many years ago I learned a variation of your technique, using dial indicators and a scientific calculator. I was turning a ball shape on a lathe. The trick was to use a calculator, and toggle between degrees and polar coordinates by pushing a button on a pocket calculator. To simplify calculations I used a constant z move (usually 1mm) and a constant angle (I forget but say 5 degrees). I have forgotten the math equation. But adding a z move and the change in angle for each step and switching to polar coordinates gave the x move. I may have the description backwards. I am retired and this is on my list to reconstruct. You are more skilled than me, so I think the concept would make sense to you.
excellent topic today Stefan. any further videos on doing manual radius milling methods would be appreciated ( by me anyway ;-) using pellet plate with a pivot point , out the pivot under an XY table on a mini mill or using home made jigs.
This will resolve a problem I will face tomorrow morning! Laugh at you? Are you kidding? I hang on every word you speak! Thank you Doctor Gotteswinter Off to Alex’s channel now.
Used the same technique on the lathe but without any DRO, just by reading the handwheel with 0.5 mm step. It works even better if your tool's curvature is already resembling that of the final part.
I was just now testing a program on a 13-axis multitasker while listening to this video. Keeps your feet on the ground and you know that if you crash the machine you can always go back to filing and manual cnc'ing untill the machine is repaired.
Remember 40+ years ago when I first started working on a CNC lathe. When DROs and CAD almost didn't exist. Calculators replacing slide rulers. Books with trigonometric and logarithmic tables was in constant use. When hardwired NC machines was superseded by CNC. Making things like tool radius compensating possible. Ending need for many form tools.
I used this technique to plot out 54 different threading cycles to form a tapered knuckle thread using a radius tool. It's shown in time lapse on my channel.
Just because the ways of doing things are old doesn't mean they don't still work. I still use antiquated ways of doing most things, mainly because I don't have the money to buy new tools to use to make it easier and faster.
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
Stefan:
Not all of us hobbyists have the money or space for CNC machines, so these techniques are absolutely still valid and useful in 2024. I can say with a fair amount of certainty, that the community here has great appreciation for you sharing these techniques, and for you sharing your many skills with us.
These "old-school" techniques, combined with the capabilities of modern DROs, basically make manual machines into CNC's... Instead of stepper motors, we're just meat-servos using handles turning the screws.
Agreed, this is absolutely awesome. As always. I am excited to try this out on my clapped out old Bridgeport. Thank you Stefan!!
Meat-servos! how funny but how true. Good one!
Haha, “Meat servos” love it. 🤣
Good stuff Stefan! No apologies necessary.
ATB, Robin
Thank you, Robin! Appreciate it!
I used this method once to cut a 10mm groove in a winch drum with a 3mm tool on a manual lathe, but I didn't have a DRO. I wrote a program to generate the X and Z start points, then set the tool with dial indicators. From there it was basically like cutting a big single point thread. It took me an entire day to make one part, but it worked great with no chatter like you would get with a form tool. I even cut a radius at the thread crest so there were no sharp edges. I adapted it to a CNC lathe and made hundreds of those parts that way.
There's actually a video of making those parts on a CNC lathe on my channel way way back in the archives if anyone is interested. I don't think I can post a link.
@@WatchWesWork I think I actually watched that video in the last few weeks - I was looking for something else about how to mount tools in a CNC lathe, and came across that video, and was like "well well well, look who it is..." :) I also watched the 3 or 4 part series on how to level / align a cnc lathe - I think those are your very first videos
As someone living in an alternate universe, without a cnc at hand, this is extremely valuable. Thank you for the time to make this video, it is great to see what we handwheel crankers can do.
Before I got my DRO, I used a spreadsheet to make all the points on a curved slot so I could plunge it with a drill and an end mill. I appreciate the time you taking the time to do this and it was definitely not boring. In a pinch, it is very good to have all of these skills.
Ditto.
As a hairy-arsed apprentice at a dockyard in the sixties, I used these techniques… powered by sine tables and a ‘spreadsheet’.
Old school for sure… but it got the job done 👍
Robert
Thank you, Stefan! This is excellent information for us old guys for whom CNC is never really going to be an option. Thanks for teaching an old dog some new tricks!
My sentiments exactly sir. 60 years old, one off repair work or some special tool to do a job. CNC makes no sense for me. However I find CNC machining interesting and certainly would embrace it were I a manufacturer.
In addition to those experienced operators laughing at you there's also a lot of home gamers watching with limited budgets and not all of us finished high school. Stuff like this is gold to us.
Some of us prefer the tactile feel of making something, similar to woodworkers. It is in our nature as humans. Cnc is cold.
@@mrechbregerif you're trying to make money then CNC is a must, but for hobbyists the fact it takes longer is kind of the point as we get to spend more time doing what we want. Would be a pretty boring hobby if all you did was just plug in a bunch of code and let the machine do all the work.
I now work in an old school engineering shop and find techniques like this invaluable.
Videos like this of yours and a handful of others here on TH-cam are actually part of the reason I'm there (my previous career had nothing to do with engineering), and I use what I've learned from your balanced cuts video, for example, every time I use a lathe at work and in my home shop.
The pro CNC guys might watch with wry amusement, but you gotta understand that taking the time to educate the rest of us is a solid public service, so thank you.
Thank you for your “grumpy” discussion/lesson/mentoring ❤
Please never stop making videos. Thank you.
I cant promise "never", but I wont stop anytime soon :)
As a hobby machinist with no immediate plans to incorporate CNC machines into my modest shop, I could easily imagine how this will be quite useful. Thanks Stefan!
I cannot thank you enough for this video. I'm not really a maker (yet), just a YT researching fanatic, and though I like learning about CNC too pre-CNC machining is where my interest really peaks. But it's getting harder to find in depth information on it.
Brilliant! I never thought of using Radius function on the Lathe.
You can teach old dogs new tricks.
Thankyou.
My Dad showed this to me in 1986, I am using this method today. It's nice to see others using this method. Thankyou.
Thank you Sir.
I'm still learning at 65 yrs old!
Thankyou Thankyou. YOU have a gift for teaching 3 different ways of visual teaching i just want to say you are amazing and gifted person.
Thank you!
Going straight to the DRO when I get home to check for this function ! That’s incredible !!
Thank you Stefan !!
This is great information. We can not let the old ways die.
Excellent video, I have used this technique for cutting radii in the past. No DRO but did use CAD to get the points. I always learn something from your videos, Thanks!
I was struggling to find a quick way to machine one round recess without using the rotary table.. et voila' ! Thank you Stefan, this exploration of old tecniques, for sure used and hardcoded in cam softwares, and your scientific approach are awesome ! ❤
my 1969 Anilam DRO has, on /off, reset X, reset Y and that is IT, this was invaluable..... best regards Steve
This is great Stefan. As a full-time programmer, I've deliberately kept my small shop fully manual so I can escape from coding and computer screens. I hadn't even considered alternatives to rotary tables/indexers until I saw this. Thank you!
Been using DRO for years for rounding corners etc but had never even considered curved slots and the rest. Learned so much from that video. Thanks Stefan.
No not at all, its always good to know the basics. You give so much fantastic information in all your work that is a real Inspiration to stand again night after night in the shop on some own ideas!!
Extremely powerful techniques, especially for home gamers who can't afford CNC or are partially or wholely computer illiterate. Great video as always Stefan and thank you for this, this will definitely come in handy. 👍👍
That was brilliant. I've used some functions on my DRO but this opens up a whole world of possibilities. Thanks
This takes me back to high school metals/manufacturing. My teacher made us learn to layout all of the radius points by calculations on paper and then on a part. I never thought that would ever come into play, but I'll be damned if I haven't used it at least once a year for the past 20 some years. Great job explaining the manual steps!
Interessantes Video. Und keine Kosten und Mühen gescheut und die Erklärungsbilder sogar bunt gebastelt, sehr schön
Nur die feinsten Spezialeffekte hier - Schnippeln und kleben :)
Never knew the hydro holders are second to side-lock holders for roughing. Thanks for that tip!
Really helpful - and found a new set of buttons on my DRO!
Very useful video. I especially like the dim lighting vibe.
It has been 12 years since I was lucky enough to find your amazing channel, and to this day you bring me to school with every video. Thanks for sharing and for all your efforts Stefan ❤
Thanks for hanging around for that long!
Fascinating stuff. I’d forgotten the emery cloth + file technique I must have been taught in school nearly 50yrs ago. One extra reason to fit DRO’s to my mill and lathe as well
Hiya Stefan, it's always a good idea to document learning materials which garner intuition to CNC-users. They'll understand their machines better!
I'm sure enough people who didn't take geometry classes ended up in CNC programming somehow, and you illustrated very clearly what to look for when chasing certain end results and why it works at all.
So no dismissive talk needed; complex tech is built up from, and therefore dependant on, the basics, so the basics always remain relevant to understanding high-tech :)
This stuff is worth maintaining, even more today than in years past (since this way of working was closer to daily reference experience, due to the absence of convenient software) - many young adults don't remotely understand how computers work or what their limits are, how to make them do what we, humans, need... You added much value, especially in clarity with illustrations.
Maybe I'm biased, since my dad used to program computers in binary, basic and assembly, and still maintains knowledge in that area. He recently added some chapter to a knowledge base on a hobby-forum for the Philips P-2000 8 bit home computer from 1981, for instance. 🤷🏼
Saw the etch-a-sketch and thought this will be a CNC conversion of one like This old Tony did. Sad it wasn't but also happy to learn so much from this video.
All very good techniques and still very useful. When I started as an apprentice I started in a shop that made some very large V-dies for bending brakes. All were done on a Planer with a 3/8" radius single point tool. This Planer was very old and had no compound tool slide, so the V-groove was cut by X/Z method. It was surprisingly efficient and produced very accurate results. Now 30 years later I still use the same technique with a DRO on a manual Bridgeport to machine a 50x50 x 25mm deep 45 degree recess in forging die I reproduce once or twice a year. I still use it because it's simple and it just works.
Thanks Stefan, I got a lot of fresh information from this video! 👍
good video Stefan..thanks for your time
Thank you!
How awesome is that ! I don't have cnc, and my (very) little swiss mill is hard work to setup a rotary table on. You just showed me how to not have to worry about that! And on the lathe as well - fabulous! No need for a sketchy radiusing tool either.
The thing is, it is always good to know the techniques that can be used to generate complex shapes. Even if CNC is only used, understanding the origins, the geometry and a bit of maths gives understanding of the processes involved.
I really enjoyed watching this video and the way Stefan unpacks the methods is great.
I've used CAD often over the years to do bolt circles, and other types of positioning on my manual mill but never thought to use it to produce coords to make shapes. The technique you showed to get these coords around a radius in Fusion was very eye opening. Thanks for the entertaining video(s) and especially for this particular nugget. I always learn something from you Stefan. Thank you!
Well done! I read somewhere in an origins of CNC article or some such, and have often repeated, that this technique is where we get the expression "Doing it by the numbers".
This is an excellent video! Thank you very much!
I saw a video a few weeks ago about CNC code to round a corner in a workpiece. I took that principle and wrote an Excel spreadsheet for the points needed and it worked well, far faster than trying to do it in CAD. The trick to using Excel is to use polar coordinates like you discussed at around 46 minutes in, you use trig to calculate the points and increment in degrees from your starting point to the ending. Once you write the spreadsheet, it takes a second to calculate your x and y or z points for any radius you want to do. You just print out the spreadsheet results and take them to the machine. Works great for coves too.
Thank you for this high value, high quality video! Not only do I not have CNC machinery, I don't even have a feature-rich DRO. I can, however, program a spreadsheet to quickly get the X,Y or X,Z coordinates and tool radius offsets for use with my very basic (aka cheap) digital scales/readouts.
Cheers,
F.C.
My thoughts on this are, like yours, use the spreadsheet to create the values. Since the path of the tool is a circular path the distance R between the radius of the desired curve, r1 and the tool radius r2 is simply R=r1+r2. This is then used to get the x value from the centre of the radius being cut as x=R * cos(a) and y=R * sin(a) when the tool is at angle a around the radius. In this case a=0° when the x value is at its maximum, the tool is along the x axis from the centre of the radius on the part and a=90° when y is maximum and the tool is along the y axis from the centre of the radius on the part. If you increase a by 1° for each position you will get a reasonable finish on a 10mm radius, you would probably want to increase a by 2° for a 5mm radius. Just make sure you have your spreadsheet set to use degrees not radians. When you have these calculated values you can adjust the x and y values to match where your origin is by adding or subtracting the correct value to suit. This path is for conventional cutting. The other corner can be cut from a=-270° to a=360°. It is easier to do than to explain.
Thanks Stefan! Exactly what I need for an upcoming project.
Greetings from Norway 🇳🇴
The last time I saw you at NYC-CNC you looked so young, but now you look like an artist 😄 This is great Stefan.
Thank you Stefan 🙌
Great points, demonstrations and video production. Thanks from Colorado.
My hat off to you. This was an amazing video. There is no such thing as usless knowledge and not only is it interesting to see where we came from but returning to it may not be so far away. Thank you for the knowledge!
I learned about incremental cut interpolation many years ago from one of your favourite author's books, Guy Lautard. Used it a few times since to get out of a difficult situation. This technique is excellent for manually turning old school ball end machine handles.
An interesting fact about CNC machines is they NEVER produce an exact tool path only a very close approximation because the dimensional feed back can only ever approach zero error but never actually achieves zero error. This is the case for a couple of reasons. The resolution of the scales and machine repeatability due to mechanical accuracy.
Excellent info,Stefan.Thank you.
Just learned a new filing technique.Thank you
love your videos thank you for teaching .
Great video and impressive work! It’s fascinating to see how you combine traditional techniques with up-to-date knowledge in machining, achieving such precision even without a CNC machine. In an era where new technologies dominate, there’s great value in understanding and performing processes manually. This really highlights the importance of knowing the fundamentals. Thank you for sharing and putting effort into your explanations - truly inspiring for anyone wanting to learn the depth of the craft!
A Project Binky and a Gotteswinter video on the same day - both an hour long. How am I supposed to have a family life today?
Watch them together as a family! :D
Add Perun to the list and you get to absolve self of all the responsibles
This is great stuff to see! There is still a place in the world for the older ways.
How did I miss the binky video?!? Thanks for the heads up.
Family doesn’t matter, only tolerances matter.
Never having been exposed to trig I find it finally useful! School in my area was for two groups, one that was college bound and the other for minimum wage workers. I got B and it has been beneficial to feed myself 😢. Thanks for the real life explanation of higher levels of math, and if you were an instructor then and then, I would be a whole lot richer man because of that exchange 😊. Stephan- every video you post makes people smarter. Thank you.
Thanks very much for this video. I learned a lot about how little I know. This is way beyond my skill level. Keep up with the great work.
Very educational!
Thanks Stefan. I have neither a DRO or a ball turning attachment for my lathe. I have used a spread sheet to generate X & Y coordinates to turn ball end features. If I ever need to do that again you have inspired me to adjust my spread sheet to generate progressive tool movements and to experiment with tools that have larger nose radius. CHEERS
Excellent video Stephan. If you don't have a DRO, or just a very basic one, a bit of geometry and a spreadsheet are your friends.
visualize on paper is wonderful
no chips, best view on the tooltip, ever 👏🏻😁
Used this exact function on a small mill drill to hog a large, close fitting curve out of a 2.5"x3.5x4" hunk of steel. Plunge cutting with a 5/8" end mill, worked perfectly!
This was very useful. I have a DRO with a lot of function. If I don't already have a rotary table up on the mill, this will be faster for simple radii. Thanks Stefan!
Being somewhat the Newby, this is extremely rich content for me. I appreciate old school techniques and this one had me on the edge of my seat !
🤔
I've done this and the results were really nice - after makng a few identical parts it was getting very tempting to spend the time attaching some sort of servo or stepper motors to the handwheels, even if I wouldn't replace the acme leadscrews with ballscrews.
Wonderful! An absolute masterclass. Thanks for showing this, suddenly my dro has quadrupled in value. Not boring, not laughing. Thanks again.
I knew there was a reason I was one of your patrons. excellent fucking video man. Thank you so much, this is opened up so many options that I never thought of. Thanks man.
Thank you a lot! Glad its helpful :)
Fantastic video, please keep making them
great explanation on the value of a DRO Stefan, and I have both CNC and manual machines in my shop!
there is no madness in learning and understanding manual ways. one of the most valuable books i found is one on restoration of machine tools, its maybe 1930 or 40. than knowledge is the best basis to understanding what modern machines are doing.
Stefan, one of my coworkers manufactured an attack/fighter bulkhead from a piece of plate using a manual Bridgeport milling machine. He held the (probably over-tight) tolerances too, in accordance with the printed bulkhead drawings. I'm not sure that he even had a DRO on that machine back then. He only did this because the aircraft OEM couldn't/wouldn't sell us one within a reasonable length of time, but he was successful, the bulkhead was.
Like many other commenters here, I too very much appreciate you sharing these "old school" techniques, since I'll never be able to afford a CNC machine. Unless I'm successful in temporarily converting my 113-year-old South Bend lathe to CNC, using a 1969-1970-vintage computer as a controller, just to see if I can do it. (This lathe was originally a treadle-powered lathe, but a previous owner converted it to use an electric motor.)
As a non CNC home shop machinist, I thrive off of this information! I still use the Woodworth Circular Tables for laying out my bolt holes and drilling them on the drill press.
I am still salty at Moore filling half of the book "Holes, contours and surfaces" with the Woodworth Circular Tables, haha.
But I understand that they are useful :)
Wonderfull, Thank you so much for this video, having seen your demonstration it;s so blindingly obvious but until I saw it, not an obvious purpose for the hole circle function! Too tired to go out to the lathe right now but tomorrow morning...
I made some manually-milled hyperbolic profiles for a copy attachment on my lathe to turn hyperboloidal microwave reflectors, by using incremental cuts on the mill and rotary table. It was too stressful to repeat the process for other curves, so I spent my retirement lump sum on a SYIL X5 CNC mill (the only one that would fit under the oak beam in the barn door), but it's good to know that I could do the work manually if I destroy the CNC!
I was taught those hand techniques a good part of a hundred years ago :-) Nice work Stefan.
Thank you, from the deepest depth of my heart!
If the basic skills used when the trade was first developed are forgotten who will be able to use a machine without the computer. We shouldn't become so dependent on the computer to get the job done. A few years ago I had to rebuild a garage in a place without electricity and no portable generator available, hand tools were the only option. So, that is what I used, tools my grandfather used when there was no electricity. Much more physical effort was required in that case. In the case of only having a manual machine available it's the knowledge to use the machine without its electronic brain that will get the job done. Today we still have people who have the ability and can recall the old ways. In 20 years or less there will be people trained only to program the computer.
Thank you for keeping the old ways alive.
Awesome video! Clear as mud to me, then again I am not and never will be a maths wizard. You explained the processes quite well, made it easy for this old schooler to understand. It’s possible that I may give the radius approach a try because I am working on a model engine that has a few parts that have radius and I have avoided machining those parts because I don’t have a rotary table. I am not a trained machinists but I am learning as I go…failing forward to successful completion. Good thing I have a lot of scrap to work with.
I made up a personal CNC4A Toolbox app that puts all the old school technique formulas that I use once in awhile in one place to stop looking them up all the time and then improved them to make them even more useful. Using one of the tools for your video example, you would just type in some data and then it would calculate the X,Y Coordinates, Number of Steps and even the height of the cusp, etc. Allow a clean up amount, etc. Then display the list on the phone or even have it emailed some where. Change one input say because say the cusp was too high and it instantly updates. I was going to have it as a giveaway when I reached thousands of subscribers but utube is never going to let that happen.
I knew this method was doable but thanks for demoing it!!!!!!!!!!!
Sometimes you have to remember the old skills to take advantage of the new ones
you can have the most advanced cnc machine, but if the person behind it doesn't have the ability to use it, you won't get anywhere either
one wrong step and you make a lot of scrap. manual OR cnc...
sigh. just wasted five hours. :)
Great video Stefan, very informative.
Я тоже такое делал, когда вытачивал на токарном станке ролики для ротационной вытяжки, используя для этого круглые твердосплавные пластины RPMT08 и державки SRAPR2020K08. Последовательность действий следующая:
1. При помощи SolidWorks создаётся профиль детали в соответствии с чертежом.
2. Создаётся эскиз в виде массива вертикальных линий, наложенных на профиль детали.
3. Создаётся эскиз с окружностями, центры которых привязаны к линиям, периметры соединены по касанию к профилю детали, а радиусы окружностей равны радиусу твердосплавной пластины.
4. Данный эскиз экспортируется в DXF файл.
5. DXF открывается в обыкновенном текстовом редакторе, из которого выписывается таблица с фактическими координатами отверстий. Таким образом перемещение по координате Z будет соответствовать шагу, на котором были расположены линии массива, а значение координаты X будет соответствовать фактическому значению положения центра окружности.
Таким же образом можно делать матрицы и пуансоны продольных гибочных штампов на строгальном станке.
Great stuff. I still draw stuff out on graph paper and use CAD to figure stuff like this out. Sometimes it really is the fastest way to do semi-precise work. I try to work stuff like this in during long runs on the cnc.
The joke that you sped your first year as an apprentice with just a file really applies here.
I need to step up my paper cutout game
Very interesting video as always!
Many years ago I learned a variation of your technique, using dial indicators and a scientific calculator. I was turning a ball shape on a lathe. The trick was to use a calculator, and toggle between degrees and polar coordinates by pushing a button on a pocket calculator. To simplify calculations I used a constant z move (usually 1mm) and a constant angle (I forget but say 5 degrees). I have forgotten the math equation. But adding a z move and the change in angle for each step and switching to polar coordinates gave the x move. I may have the description backwards. I am retired and this is on my list to reconstruct. You are more skilled than me, so I think the concept would make sense to you.
excellent topic today Stefan. any further videos on doing manual radius milling methods would be appreciated ( by me anyway ;-)
using pellet plate with a pivot point , out the pivot under an XY table on a mini mill or using home made jigs.
This will resolve a problem I will face tomorrow morning!
Laugh at you? Are you kidding? I hang on every word you speak!
Thank you Doctor Gotteswinter
Off to Alex’s channel now.
Very cool Stefan....Very cool. I don't think my DRO can do this. I would have to figure it out the old fashioned way.
Used the same technique on the lathe but without any DRO, just by reading the handwheel with 0.5 mm step. It works even better if your tool's curvature is already resembling that of the final part.
Very educational. Hard to believe the alternate universe that built that DRO never came up with CNC.
Oh its just banned for religious reasons 😔
I was just now testing a program on a 13-axis multitasker while listening to this video. Keeps your feet on the ground and you know that if you crash the machine you can always go back to filing and manual cnc'ing untill the machine is repaired.
Another informative and entertaining video 👍👍👍 Excellent
Remember 40+ years ago when I first started working on a CNC lathe. When DROs and CAD almost didn't exist. Calculators replacing slide rulers. Books with trigonometric and logarithmic tables was in constant use. When hardwired NC machines was superseded by CNC. Making things like tool radius compensating possible. Ending need for many form tools.
Interesting content Stefan.
I used this technique to plot out 54 different threading cycles to form a tapered knuckle thread using a radius tool. It's shown in time lapse on my channel.
Just because the ways of doing things are old doesn't mean they don't still work. I still use antiquated ways of doing most things, mainly because I don't have the money to buy new tools to use to make it easier and faster.