@@Daolnwood They are trying to find New AUDIENCES ... Not game or miniature customers. Huge difference. GW is on the verge of making more money with selling licenses for their IP. Which is preferable to games manufacture because the cost overhead is orders of magnitude lower. This is why they are pushing so hard into the mainstream. They want 40k to become the new Star Wars or Star Trek. An IP with universal appeal and pop culture reference that can sell everything and fits to every product. Allmost unlimited growth potential with out all the Husten of manufacturing and selling yourself.
@@schnuersithey're selling 1£ worth of plastic for $45-100. They struck gold. They've also been doing licensing for decades and it's not remotely the same in terms of returns. None of this is new territory. Every single time they have their IP get even a bit famous, it's the plastic that brings in the big bucks, because more eyeballs translates into more people buying the models that have the stupidly good margins.
Michael Moorcock, whose works actually inspired much of early Warhammer, once said that for a work to become popular, to appeal to a broad enough audience to be mainstream, it has to get bland.
I think there is no right ammount of grimdark. It depends what is the setting and what will it show to us. Even when 40k was peak grimdark, there where elements which transformed a grimdark aspect to plain grimderp. (There are no handrails on Imperial stairs, because a handrails is more expensive then human a life)
I can't be the only one who finds one page rules boring as hell. Everyone speaks so highly about it, but it truly just feels like throwing two armies at each other and just rolling dice to see what happens. The game feels almost auto-played.
@@habibishapur Dunno, my opinion is quite opposite. Altering activations do force you to think more tactically, and since you don't have an entire turn just for yourself, it's less of army smashing
@Mercenary0712 I mean, I dislike the card-game-like mechanics of 40k. I would play historicals if literally anyone else played. But one page rules seems like any degree of tactics or strategy has no effect.
@@habibishapur A problem that I have heard is that rules upon rules upon rules can result in very long turn times. Great for some people maybe, but grueling for others who want more fluidity.
@@habibishapurI play OPR pretty regularly after not enjoying Kill Team. In my own experience Ive pulled off some really creative maneuvers with my Ork list that didn’t feel like a “gotcha” but did leave both of us having a laugh.
From the 1980s to the 2010s "a cyberpunk/post-apocalyptic dystopia you wouldn't want to live in" was the default portrayal of the future. In the grim darkness of the two hundred and third decade, people are desperate to see a world worth saving, and you certainly can't get that from looking out your window.
@omnissiahGaspar Agreed, I'm just old enough to remember and have shopped in original store ☹️ depressing when any company doesn't seem to give a damn about its customers, which is where the money comes from!! Funny how big companies seem to forget that.
It's sounds like GDF has moved it's setting to resemble something more akin to how Rogue Trader presented it's universe before the current grimdark codified universe came into being over time. RT would have had pleasure planets/tourism, economic trade between empires/species and felt more 2000AD and less grimdark as much.
I think it goes in circles, also depending on the whims of the designers. For example 5th ed Warhammer (mid 90's) had totally cartoonish artwork with funny pictures in the rulebook, while beginning of the 2000's brought Mordheim and 6th ed Warhammer with very dark artwork with heavy themes (remember the picture of a religious procession in an Empire town or the entire Beastmen book?).
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Idk. Maybe the varying amounts of freedom executives give to designers and artists? Trends in neighbouring industries (video games)? Shifts in what GW perceives as their target audience?
@@robertchmielecki2580 I think it is a combination of several different things. 5th edition was HeroHammer, with very powerful heroes and relatively small, elite forces battling hordes of orks/skaven. 6th edition toned down the heroes, nerfed a lot of the magic, and made armies bigger. It was no longer you and a couple of friends (and their levies) defending your manor from goblins, or two local lords having a disagreement over some village. It was massive invasions clashing with hastily conscripted armies led by foppish officers with little real combat experience. 6th edition was also when Bretonnia got a complete tone overhaul, from straight up Arthurian myth land, to medieval France, where chivalry was in name only most of the time, and the only people that mattered were the ones who could pay ransom. Of course, the RPG was dark and perilous from the very start. 2nd edition made it more lethal, but at the same time, less punishing on the actual player. You could get your character brained with a bar stool way more easily, but magic no longer required components (they simply helped) and learning skills no longer costed your character's life savings while having a high failure rate.
For those who did not grow up in the 70's and 80's The tangible threat of a nuclear war was on everyone's mind, we all knew we were on a knifes edge of it happening. This was also the era of post apocalyptic movies. The era of many, many disaster movies. Where games like Judge Dread and Car Wars were popular. Where some more gritty themed RPGS came into existence that were not part of TSR and AD&D It was a time that 40K also poked fun of modern politics and institutions of that time in a very tongue in check way. This is the era that 40K was born into, and as others have said, 40K was a reflection of the times. Is 40K going back to itz roots about being more tongue in check or is it going into a more gritty theme? Only time will tell which direction the leadership at GW will take things and how mainstream or niche they wish to take the lore and the perception of what 40K should be in their eyes. As to lore and setting. It depends on rather you are playing a more narrative game whose stories are intertwined into a much larger universe or are you playing a game to have some fun with your buddies and the lore and stories comes from the game you just played and not from some outside 3rd party.
> The tangible threat of a nuclear war was on everyone's mind, we all knew we were on a knifes edge of it happening. Uh... There is this guy in Russia right now who is threatening to fire hyper-sonic rockets at the UK, and several large train stations were shut for bomb-scares last week. We just need ska to make a comeback and we are all set. Also I would say that the satire element of 40k - poking fun at current politics - was mostly gone by the time they released 2nd edition.
old 40k is great because as the authors stated "we were trying to forget real life politics, not lampoon it, it was bad enough as it was" but you can SEE the politics of the day seeping in subconsciously, but ultimately you have to read it in yourself, even in the case of Mag Uruk Thraka, the lampoon was declared completely unintentional by the staff and, in my opinion, that's great on all accounts
I don't even mind if they want to do just regular scifi instead of grim dark, but they should probably change the name if it doesn't reflect the tone of the universe
@@ryanmalady376 I agree. I know they've already invested in the Name, and they need to differentiate themselves from 40k some how. But it is kind of misleading a bit.
@ yeah. It’s not a bad idea for a setting. Even their version of the Chaos Gods are justified, although there is a miss opportunity with the inciting event in their narrative IMO. I think they probably should have rebranded the name before 3rd edition, perhaps some of the factions too like the “Elven Jesters”. Though to be honest most people use OPR rules to play narrative games in the 40k setting.
I think that Onepagerules has an interesting balance because within the timeline of both fantasy and sci fi you have some moments that were incredibly dark. Before the DAO Union figured out how to communicate with the alien hives for instance the hives were seen as mindless animals and their eggs were actively hunted as part of a deliberate extermination campaign. Even after achieving communication many consider the alien hives to be a threat and within the hives themselves tension is growing about how to adapt as some want to take back worlds on their migration paths even if that means planetary scale wars with other species. You also have disputes with the Soul Snatcher Cults as they are the most independant minded members of the alien hives and they are willibg to sabotage their own species. The alien hives also do have civil conflicts over resources and leadership. Or take how in fantasy the war against havoc was so worldspanning that the goblins were part of the grand aliance against the forces of havoc. They literally changed history by fifhting with the aliance yet nowadays their contributions are ignored and forgotten which causes conflicts as the goblins are motivated by a desire to be respected. You still have things like undeath societal collapse discrimination pillaging terrifying suoer weapons corruption greed and warfare. Part of my issue with grimdark is that if everything is dark and depressing it creates apathy. A story like Berserk is dark but we get genuinely moving moments which make Guts more compelling and the hope that he can take down the Godhand is engaging. In 40k novels like Caiphas Cain they are fun because Cain is finding a way to survive the insane world he lives in and his own growing need for imposter syndrome.
One good thing with OPR is that the rules and fluff is far less interwined. One works without the other. Which gives a lot of flexibility. The lore they came up with for GF IMHO also is a smart move. Because its very diverse. It allows for all sorts of games and races. The current scope of the game is just one small area of the known galaxy... and most is still unknown. Its certainly not perfect but it feels huge and diverse. The also do what GW used to do back in the day: just hint at stuff. Only few questions are really answered. There is still a place for allmost everything. Its certainly not perfect but i really like it. The Sirius Sector is quite Grimdark by itself. The destruction by the cascade is conciderable and there really is only war for a lot of the faction currently. Also most simply can not leave and have no chance to change anything long term so its pretty hopeless. The grand picture is different though. I think they made a nice little sandbox of a universe. With lots of options and potential.For example they kept the miniature agnostic approach, with the ability to create your own faction and use stuff not described... because the universe is a vast place so there is a place for anything. For the future I really hope they move their faction and miniature design away from the GW aesthetics and become more fitting to their own lore with their own designs.
@schnuersi I agree. I also think that because all the factions have their own agendas that conflicts feel more natural. In GF it makes sense that Blessed Sisters would fight the Custodian Brothers. It makes sense that Ratnen Clans might fight prime brothers. In 40k it can feel odd at times for certain factions to fight on a tabletop perspective. Sure traitor gaurd and dark mechanics exist buy they don't have models so it can feel a bit odd to have space marines vs gaurd for example. Lore wise it makes sense with traitor gaurd but we don't have traitor gaurd models. In GF HDF isn't tied to the same overarching faction they are an independent faction as opposed to how Gaurd and Space Marines are both parts of the imperium. I also do think that the Sirius sector is a great setting because everyone can make their own spin on what is in it.
There are plenty of dark elements in OPR lore -- and I suspect we'll see more when we start seeing more actual Army Books out. Everything surrounding the High Elf Fleets is very dark, the ruling class abandoning the people to be wholesale slaughtered is pretty dark. The Robots themselves becoming violent but then gaining an understanding of who they were and perhaps what they've done, and of course, the remaining non-noble elves becoming little more than homeless and desperate pirates. That entire story arc is pretty brutal.
Exactly. As much as I love 40K, the most unbelievable part is the world itself. Take the Guard for example. If you're faced with the choice to get brutally murdered by anything you go up against or take a laspistol to the face from the Commisar, I know which way I'd rather die. Either way, you're going to die but one will be excruciatingly painful and drawn out and the other you're called a coward and it's instant. That said, if there's hope that they can make it through the battle and go back to their families or give their children a better life, then that gives them a reason to fight.
Re: getting kids into it. I got the 2nd ed tyranid codex in ‘95 or ‘96 when I was 8 years old. I loved reading about Tyran getting wiped or the Tyrannic wars on Maccrage. The people who love this stuff will find it, I hope things don’t get too diluted.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming easy, things like genestealers and terminators are abstract grimdark kids can slurp up even as they look at the old 2nd/3rd edition lore of a marine getting torn open, the deeper lore of the imperium and chaos cults are kept out and away from the gateway product parents are getting aimed at
I have to point out, you definitely did not read the children's novels if you don't think they're Grimdark. Just as one example, they go into some pretty detailed explanations about what it means to become a servitor and then later reveal this was done to the parents of one of the protagonists. It's not Demonculada dark, but holy shit those books have some incredibly disturbing elements.
There's still those funky necrons though and orcs comically running away from a fight. Just disturbing elements does not make it grimdark. Especially if there's too much comical stuff around it. This is why Slenderman isn't scary if he isn't in a dark forest but instead in a nice sunny meadow surrounded by glistening unicorns and flowing water.
There was a meme fix when the first cover's were announced (the one with the necrons), where they turned the rogue trader into a genestealer, the mechanic into a servitor, and the ganger into a khorne cultist.
Maybe for the same reason God just don't forbid everything bad and evil. From the very beginning he made people to think and decide for themselves, guiding but not controlling. And after Jesus' fate God just stopped guiding humanity. He gave everything we need to build our destiny. And in TC if people caused Armageddon then they also will deal with it
Congratulations, you've stumbled across only ONE of many many many logical inconsistencies with Abrahamic religions. The answer to your question is as simple as it is sobering: it's all fiction, and the goat-herders who wrote it back then didn't think it through.
The answer is free will. People opened the gate, so it was caused by their free will. The war is mostly between humans so he doesn't just close it because it was directly caused by humans freewill, but don't get it wrong tho God(he isn't the Christian god it takes from all Abrahamic religions and some other stuff )does help. He made a covenant that makes any rebal seraphim(basically all true demons) unable to go past the gate without being obliterated by God, which is why the court only sends half breeds, scapes of dead fallen angels and ect
6:58 your comparison of art styles is weird. The not so grim dark option you give is a specific web comic artist that was already making that style of funny web comics based in the 40k world by themselves. They were brought on for the Warhammer Community page and that is where their art has stayed. None of that artwork is used in Rulebooks or Codex/Battletomes and is used purely for marketing purposes, usually in relation to the hobby aspect of the game, getting together with friends to paint and play that kind of stuff.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming So a well researched video this is not... just a flying off of the handle complaint, right got it. Found the artist, they were previously known as Eagle Ordinary, it was a fantastic webcomic and I'm glad they found success within the envelope of GWs marketing team.
How a game markets itself is important. Im sorry but its not weird to point out that putting out artwork like that through any official means is a major step away from grimdark.
@ nah not in the case of GW. The marketing needs to appeal as well to parents and those who don’t play. GW gets players by appealing to kids… the parents hold those purse strings though and if you’re depicting grim dark in your advertising they won’t buy it for little Timmy as it’s too dark and violent, what if he shoots up a school? Even in the 80’s and 90’s GW sold it as family friendly with its overall codex and rule book cover as well as boxset covers being very colourful. As well as selling its educational value. Trench crusade is ONLY able to trade and market as grim dark because GW has been about for 30+ years and pissed enough grognards off to look for an alternative. Without GW Trench Crusade could not exist.
I'm seeing an issue with Tabletop games and maybe fantasy in general in that as they are getting more popular, they are becoming more warm, fuzzy, comfortable and most of all becoming more Funko Pop culture friendly I guess would be the best way to say it. MTG, Dungeons and Dragons and Warhammer have softer and more welcoming art. I remember fantasy games in general a long time ago had that gritty fantasy feel where it felt like the adventure was raw and dangerous enough for only the truest and bravest heroes to push on through. Now everything seems easy and soft including 40k. 40k feels like the good guys are slowly winning and that's what made it so special in the first place is that it felt the opposite of that. The game has also become easier yet also become very bloated at the same time. I'm glad my hobbies are becoming more popular but a part of me is sad to see the heart of it go away in order to water it down and appease the masses. The only things i have left that continue to hold that high fantasy, gritty adventure feel is my old books but i guess books actually take effort to read and can rarely be watered down to be easier to consume unless they make a live-action version of it. I do still play tabletop games but I don't keep up with the new stuff I prefer collecting my older editions and keeping with older lore. Most everything after 2015 in terms of tabletop Lore just doesn't exist to me
Tell me about it, new dnd players absolutely refuse to get their character killed, which results in many lukewarm sessions with low risk therefore low engagement.
I think it goes in circles, also depending on the whims of the designers. For example 5th ed Warhammer (mid 90's) had totally cartoonish artwork with funny pictures in the rulebook, while beginning of the 2000's brought Mordheim and 6th ed Warhammer with very dark artwork with heavy themes (remember the picture of a religious procession in an Empire town or the entire Beasmen book?).
I think with the official lore book of Grimdark Future being released this year OPR has set their version of "Grimdark" in a middle of the road approach for people to make their own lore. It's not absolute despair nor the Hero shows up at the end to save the day stories, but for someone to take the left or the right of the fork in the road.
Technically calling it lore is a missnomer. It's a setting book. It's too high level to be lore. The short stories on the other hand are a bit too low level. Lore is in the middle. The stuff that shaps the universe but isn't the shape of the universe. The 20 legions finding their Genefather's, fighting a huge civil war and breaking up into chapters to prevent a future civil war on that scale, that's lore. It's a key feature of the setting but obviously isn't anywhere close to the whole setting. It's also not an individual, small story, it's a lot of stories with legions striving to follow the Codex to the letter while others seek any way possible to circumvent it. The benefit of having just setting is that you can legitimately make your own lore. Codex compliant Thousand Sons loyalists are simply not a thing. They fundamentally go against the established lore and cannot exist even though loyalists Emperor's children or World Eaters can. In OPR, you can run Change Disciples reinforced by Prime Brothers, both serving the Eternal Dynasty or they're fighting for the Robot Legions or hell, they've decided to join the Alien Hives and it works within the setting because there's no lore to prevent this from being remotely possible. Trench Crusade is basically all lore, minimal setting. We barely understand what the world looks like but every unit and piece of kit seems to have a clearly defined story behind it. You're playing out events in a world, you're not shaping it. There's no scenario where Trench Crusaders fight alongside Heretics. Each approach has its ups and downs.
To be fair, I think you've oversold how grimdark Grimdark Future was ever meant to _be._ Its original form was called One Page 40K, and was literally an attempt to create a game for people who _wanted_ to play 40K, but were tired of the convoluted rules, and ever-increasing need to buy new books. OP40K allowed you play 40K with the models you already had, with free rules, and were simple enough to learn and play quickly, without having to pore through reams of datasheets. As time went on, the creator decided he could actually make a go of it as a business, and called it Grimdark Future to still hint at its origins, but less overtly refer to them. They've now started developing their own separate lore for it, and making their own STL files (many of which are _fantastic),_ but that's never been the _point_ of the games themselves. The thrust has always been miniatures-agnostic sets of rules that you can use to play with whatever models you like, and whatever _lore_ you like.
GW didn't invent the style, GW was heavily inspired by 2000AD comics and Heavy Metal Magazine. Dark Fantasy was very much in vogue in the 70's. On the subject of OPR....its just rules to me. ones which I can use for whatever setting I want, I haven't turned a single page on any of the OPR lore, not one, IDGAF about lore, I just want to play some wargames man. TC is a Todd McFarlane action figure, looks cool, but Ill forget about it before it releases to non kickstarter people like myself. Stargrave is cooler than all that crap anyways.
@@phandaal A huge problem that plague all versions of Warhammer today is that most of the people writing and even the newer fans don't really understand the original ingredients and the how/why it got to where it was. They just know Warhammer as 'Warhammer the pop culture phenomena and the memes', not 'Warhammer the big pile of '80s scifi clichés with the vibe of a heavy metal album cover'. The latter is also not as appealing to investors, who mistakenly think there is a broader market. Its the Marvel-ification and Star Wars-ification of every scifi/fantasy universe. And it never works out in the end.
I dont think OPR is really that grimdark at all, but im into OPR for the gaming aspect, not the lore aspect. I do rally hope trench crusade gets fully fleshed out lore and stories
You're not the first to say that about OPR, and I feel the same way. I love the game system. The lore is ok, but not as compelling for me as other metaverses.
I think while trench crusade does look cool, they definitely achieved their goals of going "all out" on the art. I personally find some of it sick (in a good way) but I cannot in a million trillion years see ANY of that stuff show up on a store shelf in any country in the world. WW1-esque soldiers wearing gas masks with blood-runes drawn on their armor and a LITERAL SHRUNKEN FETUS hanging on their belt? Yeah, metal as all hell but you are not convincing any parent to purchase that for their kid. I can also understand that to an extent as I've started to hit my later years; that style of grimdark almost seems...way too grimdark? Like it's just being bloody and gorey and gross for the shock factor and nothing else. 40k is in a good spot in my opinion, it absolutely has grimdark still in it's artstyle and general theme.
yeah, that's one image I wasn't going to put on the video. I figured I'd get into trouble. That's one of the places where I thought "maybe a bit too far here guys"
That furst curesy imsge is meant to be for a cafe, the kids books begin with a planet blowing up and there is still some pretty metal stuff fir Necromunda
I did notice that even the all consuming monster armies in Grimdark Future were working towards peace and understanding with one another. Hell, even the daemons were simply struggling to survive and not openly malicious.
I still feel like this newcomer Trench Crusade hasn't gone off the same edge as 40k though. Well, at least 3rd to 7th edition 40k. It's kinda why I've still not gone over to them despite me liking the Death Korps. I guess it's got something to do with just how insignificant a human is in a galaxy filled with more humans than Earth.
Thanks for the video, I disagree on several points, but it was nice to get your point on Grimdark. I think it is incorrect GW has been Grimdark, then softened in recent years. I think GW has been always following the sales, going through satire (80s Judge Dreed), childish comedy (90s with colorfull orks), grimdark (the 1999 edition), and eventually the depressing all-space marines era (post-2010). So, change of setting is not recent. It has alwas changed since the 80s in my opinion.
Entirely possible. As I said, I'm not an expert on 40k. I've been playing it for decades, and enjoyed a book here and there, but I've never been die hard and so don't know the game and culture in and out.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Well, at least Trench Crusade indeed matches exactly the tone you described. To me, it looks like W40K with a fake mustache, but I wish all the best to Pirinen and his pals with it.
40K is almost afraid to offend people, GW has forgotten that the fucked up shit of their universe makes the heroic moments even better Take Cadia, Abaddon throws a giant space station at the planet, and the defenders keep on fighting even as the planet is destroyed under them, out of sheer spite and defience, it doesnt get better than that
Archie didn‘t buy out eastman/laird. They licensed it and made Their own tnmt Universe more based on the animated show. The darker original Comics continued Till the buy out by nickelodeon. Eastman/laird still have an Option to Release a few issues each Year in the Original Universe of theirs.
To be fair armies look however you want. There is not a gun to your head forcing you to make things look their way. A big part of grimdark is kit bashing and grity painting. There can literally do whatever, and I will still have grimdark armies. I have a blood angel successor chapter, dark angel successor, black templars, armie and all of them are completely kitbashed, grimdark painted, completely unique. All I need are basic intercessors and can make literally anything I want with those.
Not forced no, but so many build and paint "like the box" for a number of reasons, which creates an unofficial momentum until a player gets comfy enough to go their own way.
I wouldn’t say that grimdark can have no hope. Just, any significant improvement to the setting is some far off vague possibility. But you could possibly make it through this event, and maybe make life for you and yours a bit better than it was yesterday. The key is that there is no happy ending that makes everything better, it just doesn’t have to be so hopeless and nihilistic that there isn’t a point to trying anything. Also, grim dark doesn’t have to be war. Look at a hive city: that is grim dark even without the gang wars.
I'll say this, OPR becomes darker when you look into the narrative battles, Assault on Malhadra mission 13 stands out lol. It is Diet Grimdark for sure though. That said, the GF World Book sort of establishes the lay of the land and how everything fits together, the actual Army Books would contain more specific lore and things may dim the lights there. Also with OPR, its kinda as grimdark as you'd like it to be, as what's actually going on in a conflict is up to you.
I think the issue on why people are saying “Oh GW lost grimdark., or “GW forgot what grimdark is.”, is because they’re only looking at things from the Wider Imperiums perspective of “Humanity is the best, Space Marines cool.” But what they forget is that… Humanity is still a dying race? Like yes. Primaris is in, newer bigger, stronger space marines… but… the threats have also gotten bigger, and stronger. Tyranid invasions are climbing, Genestealer Cults leading the way. Necron Tomb-world’s awakening. Chaos, with Vashtorr, are finally, actually a threat because if Vashtorr wins- there’s a new Chaos god in play. (Aka Vashtorr actually gives a tangible goal to chaos that they lacked outside of “destroy the imperium”). While the minis, and game don’t reflect Grim-Dark, taking a look at the WHOLE picture- Humanity, no matter how hard they fight are on the loosing side. There is no hope. Were for me, Grimdark in Trench Crusade is just coming from the minis. The Art. Because there aren’t any concrete lore books to quote. We have a general idea on how the world is… but not on how the people feel. Quar, my beloved, is a goofy setting of fat, World War One inspired, Anthropomorphic Aardvarks in an eternal war. Not Grimdark at all. But it used to be more so- if you can find the old art, it’s much more grim, and dull. THAT, is a real switch.
Interesting point, both about humanity dying off in GW and TC just being in the minis (so far). Let's see what they do with the story as the game moves forward.
This reminds me of a conversation I had around 1993, when GW shifted from books to boxsets (around Fantasy Battle 4th edition and 40k 2nd edition). How the art style shifted from full gory blood splatter hits, to just armies / individuals posing and looking cool, and how it felt like GW was watering everything down to sell in more stores. It obviously worked back then given how big GW is now, but then again they were pretty small at the time so there wasn't much to lose.
I don’t think trench crusade is going to kill Warhammer 40k because trench crusade is too niche also Warhammer 40k has more variety, better options, better gameplay, more factions and the more fleshed out story also better models. Trench crusade should be its own thing. Both can exist you know.
Oh, no certainly not kill it. I was suggesting it was. I was saying that if you wanted a grittier world to play a game in TC seems to offering more than 40k.
Speaking as a Nurgle player and fully cognizant of Chaos's corruption: Nurgle's mercy is a cruel. Nurgle NEVER heals you, that is not in his power. All he does is take away the pain by making you reach a point where your corrupted body feels no pain. Nurgle never improve things, he only stagnate them.
The biggest problem with 100% grimdark is there's no point in living in those settings. You'd be better off ending it before it even begins. There has to be SOME reason for fighting other than "everything sucks and is trying to kill me but I'm too stubborn to die". That's not believable.
@@inquisitionagent9052 - Our current real world situation is well short of grimdark, and a significant portion of the population has given up on the idea of trying to create future generations of humans. In any setting where birth control plausibly exists humanity would not survive until full grimdark. Most people would give up, and the rest would finish each other off, or be finished off by Chaos/Xenos specifically in 40k.
40k's grimdark was always just something fans liked to tell each other about. The setting is fairly bleak and there's a helping of body horror, but it's not really exceptional in either of those (it's milquetoast compared to All Tomorrows). Like, it's a sci-fi dystopia, and it's somewhat novel in that the bleakness comes mostly from a frustrating kafkaesque bureaucracy rather than the inescapable corporate dominance that's more popular in dystopian settings, but the grimness and darkness was always overstated by the fans. It's barely ever been touched by their primary product. The games are just dice-rolling space fight simulators with a few body-horror minis in a couple of factions. Fans love to explain to nee players how evil their faction is in the Deep Lore because those new players have inevitably picked up absolutely none of it by playing the game. All the stuff fans love to treat as unbelievably bleak has always been better described as 'mild to medium dystopia'. It's an old genre, they're all like that. 40k gives the little guy a few outs, a ton of rad heroes and even some big wins, and the games deliver the idea of a crushing dystopia about as well as Cyberpunk Catan. It's just not that grim, not that dark, and never was.
Tastes change over time. A 1950s horror movie is a different beast than a 1970s one which is different than 1990s, which is different than 2010s. Horror is probably bigger than ever, but is in some ways more niche than ever. The audience is just buying and demanding something different than before. If i were a fan of 1950s horror, I'd lament that that style is no longer prominent at all but todays horror fans may look back at it as quaint. They may appreciate what you like about it, but it isn't their vibe. How you get to that point is a combination of corporate desires, creative folks ideas, and broader cultural/societal/technological shifts. I dont want to yuck anyones yum, but I think boiling it down to a cynical corporate attempt to appeal to a lowest common denominator is a gross simplification of the dynamics.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming I don’t think trench crusade is going to kill Warhammer 40k because trench crusade is too niche also Warhammer 40k has more variety, better options, better gameplay, more factions and the more fleshed out story also better models. Trench crusade should be its own thing. Both can exist you know.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming what I’m saying is guilliman being alive and few primarchs being alive is making Warhammer 40k less grimdark. Also ultramar being this wonderful nice place is making Warhammer even less grimdark.
@@Good.Nuff.Gamingthe human villian, 40k works in one its best ways when you approach it from the perspective of a villian popularity contest, why do uou think most players fight over which factions are /most justified/ rather than who among them is morally right except for nods, orks, and deldar players, their fans embrace their faction identity warts and all
@@jamespaguip5913ultramar was always the part of the imperium that was "Heard and not Seen", we get that in Enforcer with Shira Calpurnia acknowledging her home realm is a world apart from where she ended up
I thought Archie Comics just licensed TMNT. Because Mirage kept putting out new comics (and unlike with Nick it seemed to lack the Archie logo or ownership (IDW TMNT has this for Nick)).
For me, the tone down of grimdark relate a lot with modern day ideas of future, in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, people have great expectation for the future, looking foward to a technological and bright society, so authors and artists give them a taste of a Grimdark and horrible future that "will not be". Now, everyone (or most part of the world) dont look foward to something and see the future as some terrible destiny cause by our choses, or their daily life are as horrible as can be, just look at the wave of Post-Apocaliptic media in the previous years, so now people want a place were they can run away from the future (or the present). When the grimdark future is not a fun idead and is more of a possible destiny or a refletion of the present, its not fun anymore.
My understanding is the flair GW was going for in Old World was to be the retelling of a piece of history, as opposed to the actual period. Like the claim I say where 300 is supposed to be a retelling of Thermopolie by a Spartan to psych up his friends.
I'm slowing sinking my 40k ship and packing all my essentials on too the AoS ship until that one begins leaking too. Hopefully Trench Crusade doesn't suffer and serves as a bastion and safe haven for true Veterans of the Long War.
13:02 Reminds of the fantasy TTRPG settings I created with my friends. Among them the two best were Montera and Aleusur (our current fantasy setting) Montera was made with strict control and it was a great setting lorewise, but the things is: we unintentionally created a world in which peace between races and technological progress towards a utopian steampunk era was inevitable. We got bored of this scenario and stopped to play rather quickly, although it would be amazing to live in it. Then there is Aleusur, I wrote almost everything alone and the results were interesting, a fantasy world were there is the Entropy, a complete mindless force that brings the absolute and inevitable wear and tear to all of reality, what can mortals and celestials (who are a bunch of dicks in their own right)do? Keep fighting against the unavoidable, races work together not because of understanding, they fight together because Entropy created a tidewave of demons at one front, legions of devils at another and many threats around the world. And there is Syntropy, the opposite of Entropy? It's good? Well it spawned the dragons, giants (another bunch of dickheads) and goddamn mind flayers. Aleusur is the setting we are playing the most.
Trench Crusade honestly feels like Diet 40k to me. If I were going to do something off-brand Grimdark, I’d rather it be something wildly creative like Turnip28.
Makes me a bit bummed out Grimdark Future isn’t grimdark at all. It feels more like Mass Effect. Even 40k is losing its edge and becoming more space opera OPR is just a solid ruleset to use across settings though imo
I don't think OPR abandoned grimdarkness to get to a wider audience. I think their intentions are differentiating themselves from GW, find their own identity.
I never really thought of grim dark as being anti-tolkian. As I love both lotr and Warhammer. Perhapes its the contrast between them that draws me back and forth.
I think it's good for Grimdark settings to include a number of humanizing moments, because I think that makes for good contrast. One type of grimdarkness that I think is very cathartic is seeing someone unambiguously good and noble being destroyed by his own setting. It reminds me of Dostoevsky's The Idiot, which is all about someone as forgiving and noble as Jesus Christ being a hindrance to himself and so those around him if he had been born in the Russia of the time. I've orbited both Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K and the thing I was worried about with 40K is that it'd get one-note after a while. And if I was going to play something one-note, I'd rather play Lizardmen and Tomb Kings. The humanizing moments of 40K have shown me that it's not just grimdumb. It's certainly hooked me and the grimdarkness is still available to me. I do wonder as well if they'll skew the setting too much towards hopefulness, but right now, I'm happy to get into blood angels, SoB and Orks. I'm making the former two Mesoamerican-inspired and the latter are Da Konkeeztadorks. I'm also tooling around with Trench Crusade. I plan to make a Trench Pilgrim warband inspired by the Malleus Maleficarum, with a printing-press ballista printing and launching holy scrolls. I have similar concerns with Trench Crusade that I did with 40K, but I'm excited to try and contribute to a starting community.
I think the answer is pretty clear. When you hear people talk about one page rules, it is as an avenue through which they can play their own games with a more linear rule set. You are literally the first person I've heard of tell that there was an actual universe behind OPR. People play Trench Crusade because they enjoy the universe of Trench Crusade. I don't know what you would call success, but that sounds like it.
My line is when grimdark becomes grimderp. Such as Characters acting so wildly out of character just to cause drama, or 'no good end ever for any reason period'.
I love the artwork of 40k, but this I love even more! It is different and darker. Add to the fact that we don't have to pay the prices that we pay for GW, I can see who will be the winner in that battle.
Interesting. I dont necessarily agree that GW will have to choose though. I dont see why thay cant continue marketing their games to different audiences in different ways with each handwaving away the existence of the other.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming while that's true... perhaps GW don't need to. I think there was definitely a period where the consciously decided to make the settings more 'family friendly'. They realised this was putting off older players and I think for quite a while now they've been consciously trying to please both groups of people. And I think it's working. It is perfectly possible to enjoy the game and ignore the cartoons on the Community page and avoid the children's books. And equally, the grimmer, darker elements don't need to be on the box of the sets they sell in Barnes and Noble. Perhaps it might not be possible to please all of the people all of the time, but they can mostly please most people most of the time (at least with regards how they portray their settings).
It’s funny the more grimdark you go the more it becomes comedy like aspects in 40k are genuinely funny in a satirical way like corpse starch if you’ve had some MREs then you’d be able to draw the line and chuckle or all the doors that use human brains to automatically open when that’s so unnecessary considering they have ftl and have discovered invisible tech but can’t figure out a simple sensor we use in Walmart
Lots of good points here. I definitely think Trench Crusade hold true to the actual definition of Grimdark. I think 40K and OPR move away from Grimdark for different reasons. I think 40K is moving away to become marketable and accessible to a wider audience for money reasons. I think OPR has been trying to distance themselves from 40K and have inadvertently moved in the same direction 40K is headed. Lots of the lore I have read seems to be them trying to establish their own world and lore, little by little. I'm okay with this as I can only handle true Grimdark (like TC) in small doses. I like the comparison to Grimdark being Anti-Tolkien. Over the years I have come to find I prefer my fantasy morality to be black and white, while my sci-fi morality I prefer to be gray.
GW should adapt the same model comics and even the streaming series that Marvel did. There are several layers of Marvel aimed at different audiences from the youngster group, then the Teen group then full on adult. Kid friendly Hawkeye, not kid friendly DareDevil and Legion.
Trench crusade is only cool right now because its lore new RIGHT NOW. Every other grim dark slog gets old because it never ends. GOT was cool but every good story has to have a plot that ends. How many good stories do you know that you've effectively walked away from because they just wouldn't let it die. Holding on to grimdark for grimdark sake is the same as keeping Aunt May alive. forever.
One thing people don't realize is that, surprisingly enough, Grimdark requires ACTUAL TANGIBLE EVIL. This may seem contradictory at first, because one could say 'but muh morally gray 40k, everyone is evil'. Yes, everyone is an asshole, but some are more asshole than others. In order for a setting or story to evoke true, absolute darkness it need more than just wishy washy human evils and going 'oh but this place is bad because inequality, muh bigotry' and whatnot. Its the necessary component of the universe that makes everything else click. Its what put the likes of the Imperium is all the horrible positions it always has to be, BECAUSE the external threat is such universal and irreversible annhilation. It NEED something as truly utter evil and pants on head crazy as chaos, it NEED things as vile and self serving as the Dark Eldars. It need forces as uncompromising as the Orks and Tyranids and, sure you can have more grey-ish factions who are assholes but you have to understand that they too are self serving assholes BECAUSE the universe is so full of threats of such a cosmic magnitude that there simply is no better option beyond trucking on and still keeping the fight even if the cost in human/eldar/tau lives is horrific. Because the alternative is so, so much worse. THAT is why 40k needs its pure evil faction, because it both forces the likes of the Imperium to both struggle as the heroic anti hero while also being reduced to a state of cruelty and evil to its fellow man that is on an unimaginable scale. If there was no outside force so beyond its power to defeat, then there wouldn't be the struggles that make the setting what it is. This is why a world need absolute evil (or at the very least 'absolute alien hostility which can never be reasoned with') in order to be grim and dark.
Good point. There needs to be real conflict and dichotomy, but I think it makes it richer if the good guys are just good, but paragons. When the good guys have flaws, and the bad guys have at least one redeeming value, it really adds depth.
Another good example is Mutant Chronicles - most of the factions are just Diesel Cyberpunk - and then you have the Dark Legion with its five Dark Apostles (aka Chaos Gods) - and the guys left on Earth, who are used as mercenaries by the Megacorps.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Maybe so in some situations, but its not necessarily a key component when it come to grimdark and what 40k was originally going for. The modernist obsession with grey morality is killing most of traditional fantasy because everyone insist on making villains misunderstood sadboi who were only pushed into villainy because of victimhood. Whereas under more traditional morality, victimhood or perceived affront does not instantly justify actions. In 40k's case, the Primarchs who fell to Chaos are entirely correct in the sense of being mad at the Emperor for lying to them/not trusting them/being a general purpose asshole but it does not and never will justify the absolute depths of moral depravity that the Traitor Legions fell to in Heresy and the 10 000 years that followed. A villain having depth does not make him any less of a villain, because evil is a CHOICE while under modern 'morality', evil is not a choice and they are just sad oppressed people lashing out at the evils of the world.
I hope GW will revert back to their 3rd edition take on warhammer 40k because that was the style that drew people like me into it, if it becomes just another Star Wars then it will lose its appeal
I think trench crusade goes too far in my opinion it's so dark and grossly offensive that I can't see any enjoyment in the game & lore (besides trench pilgrims & ghosts) I love the horror- sci-fi of 40k a lot but I think Trench crusade is trying too hard and comes off as edgy for the sake with nothing to say. I'm glad people enjoy it and it fills the wants of certain gamers but this will be a universe I warp past*
Honestly even 1d4chan/1d6chan. Sometimes understands that there's grimderpiness and sometimes trying to move away from that can consiquently take away some of the grimdarkness. It like a weird scale to balance. Not helping matters is that there's multiple writers for 40k so your mileage may very by a lot.
If I remember, initially it was really silly, like over the top space marine riding space dolphins to impress eldar babes, or am I thinking of something else?
I pledge allegiance to ME. I want grim-dark, period. GW can play patty cake w/shareholders all they want. Trench Crusade definitely has my attention. I shall watch their future with great interest. Now all I want is some lore/novels based in TW. Come get me bro, my wallet is listening.
I was always a fan of Slaanesh and the direction they took She-Who-Thirsts and the lack of a future for her that I see is violently disheartening to me. The models used to be vibrant and sexy but they have gotten blander and drabber and the sensuality is all but gone. I miss the old 40k and don't even get me started on what they did to WhFB....
Fun fact. Jon heder served a 2 year mission in Japan. He speaks fluent Japanese. He has four kids. His whole family are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of ladder-day saints. ❤
Personally I don't think Trench Crusade goes far enough, or really interrogates how the setting affects actual history that is still linked to the actual crusades. Not to mention I feel that a lot feels like it was ripped out of Dark Souls. Take the crudader in black armor or the forces of Hell, they'd fit right into a Souls-like based on the stuff FromSoftware has produced. The setting sounds interesting, but feels boring or out of place. You do make a good point in why something like One Page Rules has a much softer experience for grimdark. But this also brings up what some call "grim-derp," where something is so cartoonishly dark or edgy that it makes no sense.
I think there is too much grimdark and the point is when you don't feel nothing. If everyone is equally evil you won't root for either side and if everything is lost you won't get invested into the story
One thing I wonder is why would games workshop even need to tone down Warhammer, when something like Game of Thrones was widely accepted by normies in spite of or because of it's brutality and edginess?
i feel like horus heresy is lieges more grimdark compared to 40k i also think that gw wont sacrifice grimdark entirely, specificly because of the backlash
I think if GW wants to appeal to a wider audience, they should start by finding a way to not charge new players a second mortgage just to get started
That would definitely bring the crowds
@@Daolnwood They are trying to find New AUDIENCES ... Not game or miniature customers. Huge difference. GW is on the verge of making more money with selling licenses for their IP. Which is preferable to games manufacture because the cost overhead is orders of magnitude lower. This is why they are pushing so hard into the mainstream. They want 40k to become the new Star Wars or Star Trek. An IP with universal appeal and pop culture reference that can sell everything and fits to every product. Allmost unlimited growth potential with out all the Husten of manufacturing and selling yourself.
Printer go brrrrrr 🖨️🖨️
@@schnuersithey're selling 1£ worth of plastic for $45-100. They struck gold. They've also been doing licensing for decades and it's not remotely the same in terms of returns.
None of this is new territory. Every single time they have their IP get even a bit famous, it's the plastic that brings in the big bucks, because more eyeballs translates into more people buying the models that have the stupidly good margins.
They have its called Kill Team
Michael Moorcock, whose works actually inspired much of early Warhammer, once said that for a work to become popular, to appeal to a broad enough audience to be mainstream, it has to get bland.
Die a hero, or live long enough to be a villain.
Oh it isn't just that Moorcock inspired early Warhammer. Chaos is taken directly from his writing. No Moorcock, no Chaos Space Marines.
No Moorecock no Emperors Children @@emzetkin1100
I think there is no right ammount of grimdark. It depends what is the setting and what will it show to us. Even when 40k was peak grimdark, there where elements which transformed a grimdark aspect to plain grimderp. (There are no handrails on Imperial stairs, because a handrails is more expensive then human a life)
It's a spectrum, and everyone has their preferred spot, which makes it hard to please everyone.
Wait, is this actual lore reason for no handrails?
Really?
@@piotrwisniewski70 yup the material for rails(unless you’re noble) is better spent making useful stuff
That's pretty funny tbh, and old 40k personally felt like it had a light judge Dredd satire feel to it
Trivia: One Page Rules originally went by “One Page 40k” until contacted by GW legal.
I can't be the only one who finds one page rules boring as hell. Everyone speaks so highly about it, but it truly just feels like throwing two armies at each other and just rolling dice to see what happens. The game feels almost auto-played.
@@habibishapur Dunno, my opinion is quite opposite. Altering activations do force you to think more tactically, and since you don't have an entire turn just for yourself, it's less of army smashing
@Mercenary0712 I mean, I dislike the card-game-like mechanics of 40k. I would play historicals if literally anyone else played. But one page rules seems like any degree of tactics or strategy has no effect.
@@habibishapur A problem that I have heard is that rules upon rules upon rules can result in very long turn times. Great for some people maybe, but grueling for others who want more fluidity.
@@habibishapurI play OPR pretty regularly after not enjoying Kill Team. In my own experience Ive pulled off some really creative maneuvers with my Ork list that didn’t feel like a “gotcha” but did leave both of us having a laugh.
From the 1980s to the 2010s "a cyberpunk/post-apocalyptic dystopia you wouldn't want to live in" was the default portrayal of the future.
In the grim darkness of the two hundred and third decade, people are desperate to see a world worth saving, and you certainly can't get that from looking out your window.
Honest to God, with the way the real world news looks at times I read 40k and Trench Crusade for the escapism.
@@grex951 for real, I want something industrial, and esoteric, and warlike and gritty rather than insane and bland like everything is nowadays.
Full "Casualization", that's the real grim dark.
GW will, as always, just FOLLOW THE MONEY.
What do you expect? It's a publicly traded company with many investors
@omnissiahGaspar Agreed, I'm just old enough to remember and have shopped in original store ☹️ depressing when any company doesn't seem to give a damn about its customers, which is where the money comes from!! Funny how big companies seem to forget that.
*TRIP AFTER THE MONEY you mean
I'm not so sure. They seem to have picked up a damaging ideology that's dictating their decisions, and they won't be the first to do so.
It's sounds like GDF has moved it's setting to resemble something more akin to how Rogue Trader presented it's universe before the current grimdark codified universe came into being over time. RT would have had pleasure planets/tourism, economic trade between empires/species and felt more 2000AD and less grimdark as much.
I think it goes in circles, also depending on the whims of the designers.
For example 5th ed Warhammer (mid 90's) had totally cartoonish artwork with funny pictures in the rulebook, while beginning of the 2000's brought Mordheim and 6th ed Warhammer with very dark artwork with heavy themes (remember the picture of a religious procession in an Empire town or the entire Beastmen book?).
Interesting point. What do you think contributes to the cycle most?
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Idk. Maybe the varying amounts of freedom executives give to designers and artists? Trends in neighbouring industries (video games)? Shifts in what GW perceives as their target audience?
@@robertchmielecki2580 I think it is a combination of several different things. 5th edition was HeroHammer, with very powerful heroes and relatively small, elite forces battling hordes of orks/skaven. 6th edition toned down the heroes, nerfed a lot of the magic, and made armies bigger. It was no longer you and a couple of friends (and their levies) defending your manor from goblins, or two local lords having a disagreement over some village. It was massive invasions clashing with hastily conscripted armies led by foppish officers with little real combat experience.
6th edition was also when Bretonnia got a complete tone overhaul, from straight up Arthurian myth land, to medieval France, where chivalry was in name only most of the time, and the only people that mattered were the ones who could pay ransom.
Of course, the RPG was dark and perilous from the very start. 2nd edition made it more lethal, but at the same time, less punishing on the actual player. You could get your character brained with a bar stool way more easily, but magic no longer required components (they simply helped) and learning skills no longer costed your character's life savings while having a high failure rate.
10:59 “Rules Bloat and Power Creep” sound like badass Double Dragon bosses
For those who did not grow up in the 70's and 80's
The tangible threat of a nuclear war was on everyone's mind, we all knew we were on a knifes edge of it happening.
This was also the era of post apocalyptic movies.
The era of many, many disaster movies.
Where games like Judge Dread and Car Wars were popular.
Where some more gritty themed RPGS came into existence that were not part of TSR and AD&D
It was a time that 40K also poked fun of modern politics and institutions of that time in a very tongue in check way.
This is the era that 40K was born into, and as others have said, 40K was a reflection of the times.
Is 40K going back to itz roots about being more tongue in check or is it going into a more gritty theme?
Only time will tell which direction the leadership at GW will take things and how mainstream or niche they wish to take the lore and the perception of what 40K should be in their eyes.
As to lore and setting.
It depends on rather you are playing a more narrative game whose stories are intertwined into a much larger universe or are you playing a game to have some fun with your buddies and the lore and stories comes from the game you just played and not from some outside 3rd party.
> The tangible threat of a nuclear war was on everyone's mind, we all knew we were on a knifes edge of it happening.
Uh... There is this guy in Russia right now who is threatening to fire hyper-sonic rockets at the UK, and several large train stations were shut for bomb-scares last week. We just need ska to make a comeback and we are all set.
Also I would say that the satire element of 40k - poking fun at current politics - was mostly gone by the time they released 2nd edition.
Huh. Yeah, if it represents the times, then they might make more happy stories if it sells.
old 40k is great because as the authors stated "we were trying to forget real life politics, not lampoon it, it was bad enough as it was" but you can SEE the politics of the day seeping in subconsciously, but ultimately you have to read it in yourself, even in the case of Mag Uruk Thraka, the lampoon was declared completely unintentional by the staff
and, in my opinion, that's great on all accounts
I made quite a few Grimdark Future Lore videos, and it’s not “Grimdark” at all. If anything everyone is the good guys.
I don't even mind if they want to do just regular scifi instead of grim dark, but they should probably change the name if it doesn't reflect the tone of the universe
@@ryanmalady376 I agree. I know they've already invested in the Name, and they need to differentiate themselves from 40k some how. But it is kind of misleading a bit.
That's kind of Grimdark in itself everyone being a good guy but no one willing to cooperate.
Interesting flip, everyone is a hero instead of everyone having a dark side.
@ yeah. It’s not a bad idea for a setting. Even their version of the Chaos Gods are justified, although there is a miss opportunity with the inciting event in their narrative IMO. I think they probably should have rebranded the name before 3rd edition, perhaps some of the factions too like the “Elven Jesters”.
Though to be honest most people use OPR rules to play narrative games in the 40k setting.
I think that Onepagerules has an interesting balance because within the timeline of both fantasy and sci fi you have some moments that were incredibly dark.
Before the DAO Union figured out how to communicate with the alien hives for instance the hives were seen as mindless animals and their eggs were actively hunted as part of a deliberate extermination campaign. Even after achieving communication many consider the alien hives to be a threat and within the hives themselves tension is growing about how to adapt as some want to take back worlds on their migration paths even if that means planetary scale wars with other species. You also have disputes with the Soul Snatcher Cults as they are the most independant minded members of the alien hives and they are willibg to sabotage their own species. The alien hives also do have civil conflicts over resources and leadership.
Or take how in fantasy the war against havoc was so worldspanning that the goblins were part of the grand aliance against the forces of havoc. They literally changed history by fifhting with the aliance yet nowadays their contributions are ignored and forgotten which causes conflicts as the goblins are motivated by a desire to be respected.
You still have things like undeath societal collapse discrimination pillaging terrifying suoer weapons corruption greed and warfare.
Part of my issue with grimdark is that if everything is dark and depressing it creates apathy. A story like Berserk is dark but we get genuinely moving moments which make Guts more compelling and the hope that he can take down the Godhand is engaging. In 40k novels like Caiphas Cain they are fun because Cain is finding a way to survive the insane world he lives in and his own growing need for imposter syndrome.
One good thing with OPR is that the rules and fluff is far less interwined. One works without the other. Which gives a lot of flexibility.
The lore they came up with for GF IMHO also is a smart move. Because its very diverse. It allows for all sorts of games and races. The current scope of the game is just one small area of the known galaxy... and most is still unknown. Its certainly not perfect but it feels huge and diverse. The also do what GW used to do back in the day: just hint at stuff. Only few questions are really answered. There is still a place for allmost everything. Its certainly not perfect but i really like it.
The Sirius Sector is quite Grimdark by itself. The destruction by the cascade is conciderable and there really is only war for a lot of the faction currently. Also most simply can not leave and have no chance to change anything long term so its pretty hopeless. The grand picture is different though.
I think they made a nice little sandbox of a universe. With lots of options and potential.For example they kept the miniature agnostic approach, with the ability to create your own faction and use stuff not described... because the universe is a vast place so there is a place for anything.
For the future I really hope they move their faction and miniature design away from the GW aesthetics and become more fitting to their own lore with their own designs.
@schnuersi I agree. I also think that because all the factions have their own agendas that conflicts feel more natural.
In GF it makes sense that Blessed Sisters would fight the Custodian Brothers. It makes sense that Ratnen Clans might fight prime brothers. In 40k it can feel odd at times for certain factions to fight on a tabletop perspective.
Sure traitor gaurd and dark mechanics exist buy they don't have models so it can feel a bit odd to have space marines vs gaurd for example. Lore wise it makes sense with traitor gaurd but we don't have traitor gaurd models.
In GF HDF isn't tied to the same overarching faction they are an independent faction as opposed to how Gaurd and Space Marines are both parts of the imperium.
I also do think that the Sirius sector is a great setting because everyone can make their own spin on what is in it.
There are plenty of dark elements in OPR lore -- and I suspect we'll see more when we start seeing more actual Army Books out. Everything surrounding the High Elf Fleets is very dark, the ruling class abandoning the people to be wholesale slaughtered is pretty dark. The Robots themselves becoming violent but then gaining an understanding of who they were and perhaps what they've done, and of course, the remaining non-noble elves becoming little more than homeless and desperate pirates. That entire story arc is pretty brutal.
@@Warjaming The Infected Colonies are an entire planet and species of Parasyte.
Exactly. As much as I love 40K, the most unbelievable part is the world itself. Take the Guard for example. If you're faced with the choice to get brutally murdered by anything you go up against or take a laspistol to the face from the Commisar, I know which way I'd rather die. Either way, you're going to die but one will be excruciatingly painful and drawn out and the other you're called a coward and it's instant. That said, if there's hope that they can make it through the battle and go back to their families or give their children a better life, then that gives them a reason to fight.
Also, friendly reminder: Trench Crusade said they dont want you if you dont like Custodettes.
I do remember that little incident, which is unfortunate. As long as they keep it out of the game itself.
Re: getting kids into it. I got the 2nd ed tyranid codex in ‘95 or ‘96 when I was 8 years old. I loved reading about Tyran getting wiped or the Tyrannic wars on Maccrage. The people who love this stuff will find it, I hope things don’t get too diluted.
Same. My first 40k was the OG Space Hulk. I was a grim child though.
Nice. There's got to be a way to limit it for kids without diluting it.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming easy, things like genestealers and terminators are abstract grimdark kids can slurp up even as they look at the old 2nd/3rd edition lore of a marine getting torn open, the deeper lore of the imperium and chaos cults are kept out and away from the gateway product parents are getting aimed at
forever Winter is also very grimdark
I've heard of it. May have to check it out further.
Oh you must. You'll love it@@Good.Nuff.Gaming
The Necromunda minis are probably the last few grimdark efforts from GW now that Horus Heresy has been asepticised.
They make some good stuff too.
I have to point out, you definitely did not read the children's novels if you don't think they're Grimdark. Just as one example, they go into some pretty detailed explanations about what it means to become a servitor and then later reveal this was done to the parents of one of the protagonists. It's not Demonculada dark, but holy shit those books have some incredibly disturbing elements.
Interesting. I'll have to check one out. I scanned through one, but never read the whole thing
There's still those funky necrons though and orcs comically running away from a fight. Just disturbing elements does not make it grimdark. Especially if there's too much comical stuff around it. This is why Slenderman isn't scary if he isn't in a dark forest but instead in a nice sunny meadow surrounded by glistening unicorns and flowing water.
I dont need to read them to know they arent. Look at the cover art dude. If its marketed to children, then they are doing something wrong
Plus, the kid who's killed by a genestealer (he's like 12)
There was a meme fix when the first cover's were announced (the one with the necrons), where they turned the rogue trader into a genestealer, the mechanic into a servitor, and the ganger into a khorne cultist.
With Trench Crusade I wondered why God didnt close the portal. He is omnipotent, what is stopping God from stepping in
Maybe for the same reason God just don't forbid everything bad and evil. From the very beginning he made people to think and decide for themselves, guiding but not controlling. And after Jesus' fate God just stopped guiding humanity. He gave everything we need to build our destiny. And in TC if people caused Armageddon then they also will deal with it
Congratulations, you've stumbled across only ONE of many many many logical inconsistencies with Abrahamic religions. The answer to your question is as simple as it is sobering: it's all fiction, and the goat-herders who wrote it back then didn't think it through.
Would be no game if he did. It's the irony of stitching a grimdark setting on a fundamentally hopeful cosmology...Looks cool though.
@@revylokesh1783 Trench crusade isn't really christian. They took from Christianity, but they're not sticking to it's doctrine or orthodoxy.
The answer is free will. People opened the gate, so it was caused by their free will. The war is mostly between humans so he doesn't just close it because it was directly caused by humans freewill, but don't get it wrong tho God(he isn't the Christian god it takes from all Abrahamic religions and some other stuff )does help. He made a covenant that makes any rebal seraphim(basically all true demons) unable to go past the gate without being obliterated by God, which is why the court only sends half breeds, scapes of dead fallen angels and ect
6:58 your comparison of art styles is weird. The not so grim dark option you give is a specific web comic artist that was already making that style of funny web comics based in the 40k world by themselves. They were brought on for the Warhammer Community page and that is where their art has stayed. None of that artwork is used in Rulebooks or Codex/Battletomes and is used purely for marketing purposes, usually in relation to the hobby aspect of the game, getting together with friends to paint and play that kind of stuff.
Shhh, you'll ruin his carefully picked cherries.
Not a bit cherry fan. And in order to keep the video short I don't have time for a dissertation.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming So a well researched video this is not... just a flying off of the handle complaint, right got it. Found the artist, they were previously known as Eagle Ordinary, it was a fantastic webcomic and I'm glad they found success within the envelope of GWs marketing team.
How a game markets itself is important. Im sorry but its not weird to point out that putting out artwork like that through any official means is a major step away from grimdark.
@ nah not in the case of GW. The marketing needs to appeal as well to parents and those who don’t play. GW gets players by appealing to kids… the parents hold those purse strings though and if you’re depicting grim dark in your advertising they won’t buy it for little Timmy as it’s too dark and violent, what if he shoots up a school? Even in the 80’s and 90’s GW sold it as family friendly with its overall codex and rule book cover as well as boxset covers being very colourful. As well as selling its educational value.
Trench crusade is ONLY able to trade and market as grim dark because GW has been about for 30+ years and pissed enough grognards off to look for an alternative. Without GW Trench Crusade could not exist.
I'm seeing an issue with Tabletop games and maybe fantasy in general in that as they are getting more popular, they are becoming more warm, fuzzy, comfortable and most of all becoming more Funko Pop culture friendly I guess would be the best way to say it. MTG, Dungeons and Dragons and Warhammer have softer and more welcoming art. I remember fantasy games in general a long time ago had that gritty fantasy feel where it felt like the adventure was raw and dangerous enough for only the truest and bravest heroes to push on through. Now everything seems easy and soft including 40k. 40k feels like the good guys are slowly winning and that's what made it so special in the first place is that it felt the opposite of that. The game has also become easier yet also become very bloated at the same time.
I'm glad my hobbies are becoming more popular but a part of me is sad to see the heart of it go away in order to water it down and appease the masses. The only things i have left that continue to hold that high fantasy, gritty adventure feel is my old books but i guess books actually take effort to read and can rarely be watered down to be easier to consume unless they make a live-action version of it.
I do still play tabletop games but I don't keep up with the new stuff I prefer collecting my older editions and keeping with older lore. Most everything after 2015 in terms of tabletop Lore just doesn't exist to me
You made me think of some old school MtG art like Sengir Vampire and Living Wall.
Tell me about it, new dnd players absolutely refuse to get their character killed, which results in many lukewarm sessions with low risk therefore low engagement.
I think it goes in circles, also depending on the whims of the designers.
For example 5th ed Warhammer (mid 90's) had totally cartoonish artwork with funny pictures in the rulebook, while beginning of the 2000's brought Mordheim and 6th ed Warhammer with very dark artwork with heavy themes (remember the picture of a religious procession in an Empire town or the entire Beasmen book?).
I think with the official lore book of Grimdark Future being released this year OPR has set their version of "Grimdark" in a middle of the road approach for people to make their own lore. It's not absolute despair nor the Hero shows up at the end to save the day stories, but for someone to take the left or the right of the fork in the road.
And you know what? I appreciate that.
Technically calling it lore is a missnomer.
It's a setting book. It's too high level to be lore. The short stories on the other hand are a bit too low level.
Lore is in the middle. The stuff that shaps the universe but isn't the shape of the universe. The 20 legions finding their Genefather's, fighting a huge civil war and breaking up into chapters to prevent a future civil war on that scale, that's lore. It's a key feature of the setting but obviously isn't anywhere close to the whole setting. It's also not an individual, small story, it's a lot of stories with legions striving to follow the Codex to the letter while others seek any way possible to circumvent it.
The benefit of having just setting is that you can legitimately make your own lore. Codex compliant Thousand Sons loyalists are simply not a thing. They fundamentally go against the established lore and cannot exist even though loyalists Emperor's children or World Eaters can.
In OPR, you can run Change Disciples reinforced by Prime Brothers, both serving the Eternal Dynasty or they're fighting for the Robot Legions or hell, they've decided to join the Alien Hives and it works within the setting because there's no lore to prevent this from being remotely possible.
Trench Crusade is basically all lore, minimal setting. We barely understand what the world looks like but every unit and piece of kit seems to have a clearly defined story behind it. You're playing out events in a world, you're not shaping it. There's no scenario where Trench Crusaders fight alongside Heretics.
Each approach has its ups and downs.
6:40 Alternatively, you can make a subfaction within each major faction the "Good guy" like Robot Gorillaman or Comander Farsight.
To be fair, I think you've oversold how grimdark Grimdark Future was ever meant to _be._ Its original form was called One Page 40K, and was literally an attempt to create a game for people who _wanted_ to play 40K, but were tired of the convoluted rules, and ever-increasing need to buy new books. OP40K allowed you play 40K with the models you already had, with free rules, and were simple enough to learn and play quickly, without having to pore through reams of datasheets.
As time went on, the creator decided he could actually make a go of it as a business, and called it Grimdark Future to still hint at its origins, but less overtly refer to them. They've now started developing their own separate lore for it, and making their own STL files (many of which are _fantastic),_ but that's never been the _point_ of the games themselves. The thrust has always been miniatures-agnostic sets of rules that you can use to play with whatever models you like, and whatever _lore_ you like.
That would make sense - if the title was tipping the hat to origins rather than an expression of the game as it currently is.
GW didn't invent the style, GW was heavily inspired by 2000AD comics and Heavy Metal Magazine. Dark Fantasy was very much in vogue in the 70's. On the subject of OPR....its just rules to me. ones which I can use for whatever setting I want, I haven't turned a single page on any of the OPR lore, not one, IDGAF about lore, I just want to play some wargames man. TC is a Todd McFarlane action figure, looks cool, but Ill forget about it before it releases to non kickstarter people like myself. Stargrave is cooler than all that crap anyways.
Agreed on all points.
@@phandaal A huge problem that plague all versions of Warhammer today is that most of the people writing and even the newer fans don't really understand the original ingredients and the how/why it got to where it was. They just know Warhammer as 'Warhammer the pop culture phenomena and the memes', not 'Warhammer the big pile of '80s scifi clichés with the vibe of a heavy metal album cover'. The latter is also not as appealing to investors, who mistakenly think there is a broader market.
Its the Marvel-ification and Star Wars-ification of every scifi/fantasy universe. And it never works out in the end.
I dont think OPR is really that grimdark at all, but im into OPR for the gaming aspect, not the lore aspect. I do rally hope trench crusade gets fully fleshed out lore and stories
You're not the first to say that about OPR, and I feel the same way. I love the game system. The lore is ok, but not as compelling for me as other metaverses.
Miss my grimdark 40k
At least you can paint your own guys as grimdark as you want.
I think while trench crusade does look cool, they definitely achieved their goals of going "all out" on the art. I personally find some of it sick (in a good way) but I cannot in a million trillion years see ANY of that stuff show up on a store shelf in any country in the world. WW1-esque soldiers wearing gas masks with blood-runes drawn on their armor and a LITERAL SHRUNKEN FETUS hanging on their belt? Yeah, metal as all hell but you are not convincing any parent to purchase that for their kid. I can also understand that to an extent as I've started to hit my later years; that style of grimdark almost seems...way too grimdark? Like it's just being bloody and gorey and gross for the shock factor and nothing else. 40k is in a good spot in my opinion, it absolutely has grimdark still in it's artstyle and general theme.
What’s wrong with shock factor and moreover, why should you buy it for the kids?
I think it’s good that it understands what it’s trying to be, as perhaps overly edge as it is, it knows who it’s for and isn’t afraid to be that.
yeah, that's one image I wasn't going to put on the video. I figured I'd get into trouble. That's one of the places where I thought "maybe a bit too far here guys"
That furst curesy imsge is meant to be for a cafe, the kids books begin with a planet blowing up and there is still some pretty metal stuff fir Necromunda
I did notice that even the all consuming monster armies in Grimdark Future were working towards peace and understanding with one another. Hell, even the daemons were simply struggling to survive and not openly malicious.
Yeah. That's what really got me. The alien invade, and all that had to be done was...talk to them? Turns out they just wanted a cup of sugar.
I still feel like this newcomer Trench Crusade hasn't gone off the same edge as 40k though. Well, at least 3rd to 7th edition 40k. It's kinda why I've still not gone over to them despite me liking the Death Korps. I guess it's got something to do with just how insignificant a human is in a galaxy filled with more humans than Earth.
Thanks for the video, I disagree on several points, but it was nice to get your point on Grimdark. I think it is incorrect GW has been Grimdark, then softened in recent years. I think GW has been always following the sales, going through satire (80s Judge Dreed), childish comedy (90s with colorfull orks), grimdark (the 1999 edition), and eventually the depressing all-space marines era (post-2010). So, change of setting is not recent. It has alwas changed since the 80s in my opinion.
Entirely possible. As I said, I'm not an expert on 40k. I've been playing it for decades, and enjoyed a book here and there, but I've never been die hard and so don't know the game and culture in and out.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Well, at least Trench Crusade indeed matches exactly the tone you described. To me, it looks like W40K with a fake mustache, but I wish all the best to Pirinen and his pals with it.
40K is almost afraid to offend people,
GW has forgotten that the fucked up shit of their universe makes the heroic moments even better
Take Cadia, Abaddon throws a giant space station at the planet, and the defenders keep on fighting even as the planet is destroyed under them, out of sheer spite and defience, it doesnt get better than that
‘Grimdark’ will never have a mass appeal, its inevitable as 40k got bigger they dark stuff gets cut.
Sad, but true. And means the focus of the company isn't the game.
Archie didn‘t buy out eastman/laird. They licensed it and made Their own tnmt Universe more based on the animated show. The darker original Comics continued Till the buy out by nickelodeon. Eastman/laird still have an Option to Release a few issues each Year in the Original Universe of theirs.
Really? Cool. I didn't know that.
To be fair armies look however you want. There is not a gun to your head forcing you to make things look their way. A big part of grimdark is kit bashing and grity painting. There can literally do whatever, and I will still have grimdark armies. I have a blood angel successor chapter, dark angel successor, black templars, armie and all of them are completely kitbashed, grimdark painted, completely unique. All I need are basic intercessors and can make literally anything I want with those.
Not forced no, but so many build and paint "like the box" for a number of reasons, which creates an unofficial momentum until a player gets comfy enough to go their own way.
I wouldn’t say that grimdark can have no hope. Just, any significant improvement to the setting is some far off vague possibility. But you could possibly make it through this event, and maybe make life for you and yours a bit better than it was yesterday. The key is that there is no happy ending that makes everything better, it just doesn’t have to be so hopeless and nihilistic that there isn’t a point to trying anything.
Also, grim dark doesn’t have to be war. Look at a hive city: that is grim dark even without the gang wars.
Fair point. I wanted to keep the video shorter so sadly that means some nuance gets left on the cutting room floor.
@ oh, completely understand that. And with that caveat, agree completely.
I'll say this, OPR becomes darker when you look into the narrative battles, Assault on Malhadra mission 13 stands out lol. It is Diet Grimdark for sure though. That said, the GF World Book sort of establishes the lay of the land and how everything fits together, the actual Army Books would contain more specific lore and things may dim the lights there. Also with OPR, its kinda as grimdark as you'd like it to be, as what's actually going on in a conflict is up to you.
it will be curious to see what they do now that they are releasing the army books
I think the issue on why people are saying “Oh GW lost grimdark., or “GW forgot what grimdark is.”, is because they’re only looking at things from the Wider Imperiums perspective of “Humanity is the best, Space Marines cool.” But what they forget is that… Humanity is still a dying race?
Like yes. Primaris is in, newer bigger, stronger space marines… but… the threats have also gotten bigger, and stronger. Tyranid invasions are climbing, Genestealer Cults leading the way. Necron Tomb-world’s awakening. Chaos, with Vashtorr, are finally, actually a threat because if Vashtorr wins- there’s a new Chaos god in play. (Aka Vashtorr actually gives a tangible goal to chaos that they lacked outside of “destroy the imperium”).
While the minis, and game don’t reflect Grim-Dark, taking a look at the WHOLE picture- Humanity, no matter how hard they fight are on the loosing side. There is no hope.
Were for me, Grimdark in Trench Crusade is just coming from the minis. The Art. Because there aren’t any concrete lore books to quote. We have a general idea on how the world is… but not on how the people feel.
Quar, my beloved, is a goofy setting of fat, World War One inspired, Anthropomorphic Aardvarks in an eternal war. Not Grimdark at all. But it used to be more so- if you can find the old art, it’s much more grim, and dull.
THAT, is a real switch.
Interesting point, both about humanity dying off in GW and TC just being in the minis (so far). Let's see what they do with the story as the game moves forward.
This reminds me of a conversation I had around 1993, when GW shifted from books to boxsets (around Fantasy Battle 4th edition and 40k 2nd edition). How the art style shifted from full gory blood splatter hits, to just armies / individuals posing and looking cool, and how it felt like GW was watering everything down to sell in more stores. It obviously worked back then given how big GW is now, but then again they were pretty small at the time so there wasn't much to lose.
I don’t think trench crusade is going to kill Warhammer 40k because trench crusade is too niche also Warhammer 40k has more variety, better options, better gameplay, more factions and the more fleshed out story also better models. Trench crusade should be its own thing. Both can exist you know.
Oh, no certainly not kill it. I was suggesting it was. I was saying that if you wanted a grittier world to play a game in TC seems to offering more than 40k.
Nurgle doesnt seem too bad. He just wants to stop the suffering 😢 lol
Papa Nurgle loves all his children and just wants to spread his slimy, virus ridden gifts to everyone!
Speaking as a Nurgle player and fully cognizant of Chaos's corruption: Nurgle's mercy is a cruel. Nurgle NEVER heals you, that is not in his power. All he does is take away the pain by making you reach a point where your corrupted body feels no pain. Nurgle never improve things, he only stagnate them.
Ever see the Movie "Major Payne"? When he says "want me to show you a little trick to take you mind off that pain?"
@@freakyzed8467"Life, uh, life finds a way"
The biggest problem with 100% grimdark is there's no point in living in those settings. You'd be better off ending it before it even begins. There has to be SOME reason for fighting other than "everything sucks and is trying to kill me but I'm too stubborn to die". That's not believable.
For some people that's all the reason they have
@@froggy2247AMEN
It's especially not likeable
YES! This is why most Grimdark stories fall flat; there needs to be something worth fighting for, or there is no reason to fight at all.
@@inquisitionagent9052 - Our current real world situation is well short of grimdark, and a significant portion of the population has given up on the idea of trying to create future generations of humans. In any setting where birth control plausibly exists humanity would not survive until full grimdark. Most people would give up, and the rest would finish each other off, or be finished off by Chaos/Xenos specifically in 40k.
Have u ever heard about kenshi? One of my favourite rpgs, some say its grimdark, I kinda agree
40k's grimdark was always just something fans liked to tell each other about. The setting is fairly bleak and there's a helping of body horror, but it's not really exceptional in either of those (it's milquetoast compared to All Tomorrows).
Like, it's a sci-fi dystopia, and it's somewhat novel in that the bleakness comes mostly from a frustrating kafkaesque bureaucracy rather than the inescapable corporate dominance that's more popular in dystopian settings, but the grimness and darkness was always overstated by the fans. It's barely ever been touched by their primary product. The games are just dice-rolling space fight simulators with a few body-horror minis in a couple of factions. Fans love to explain to nee players how evil their faction is in the Deep Lore because those new players have inevitably picked up absolutely none of it by playing the game.
All the stuff fans love to treat as unbelievably bleak has always been better described as 'mild to medium dystopia'. It's an old genre, they're all like that. 40k gives the little guy a few outs, a ton of rad heroes and even some big wins, and the games deliver the idea of a crushing dystopia about as well as Cyberpunk Catan. It's just not that grim, not that dark, and never was.
Food for thought. Thanks.
Tastes change over time. A 1950s horror movie is a different beast than a 1970s one which is different than 1990s, which is different than 2010s. Horror is probably bigger than ever, but is in some ways more niche than ever. The audience is just buying and demanding something different than before.
If i were a fan of 1950s horror, I'd lament that that style is no longer prominent at all but todays horror fans may look back at it as quaint. They may appreciate what you like about it, but it isn't their vibe. How you get to that point is a combination of corporate desires, creative folks ideas, and broader cultural/societal/technological shifts.
I dont want to yuck anyones yum, but I think boiling it down to a cynical corporate attempt to appeal to a lowest common denominator is a gross simplification of the dynamics.
They're sanitizing a theme of which the appeal is how dirty and horrible it is.
They missed the fucking point.
Yep. "Burning the village in order to save it" kind of thing.
The imperium of man is still the villain it’s just that the issue is guilliman being alive and ultramar.
THE villain, or A villain?
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming I don’t think trench crusade is going to kill Warhammer 40k because trench crusade is too niche also Warhammer 40k has more variety, better options, better gameplay, more factions and the more fleshed out story also better models. Trench crusade should be its own thing. Both can exist you know.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming what I’m saying is guilliman being alive and few primarchs being alive is making Warhammer 40k less grimdark. Also ultramar being this wonderful nice place is making Warhammer even less grimdark.
@@Good.Nuff.Gamingthe human villian, 40k works in one its best ways when you approach it from the perspective of a villian popularity contest, why do uou think most players fight over which factions are /most justified/ rather than who among them is morally right
except for nods, orks, and deldar players, their fans embrace their faction identity warts and all
@@jamespaguip5913ultramar was always the part of the imperium that was "Heard and not Seen", we get that in Enforcer with Shira Calpurnia acknowledging her home realm is a world apart from where she ended up
3:13 I wouldn't live in SW, it sucks.
And it's very clear that novels are the only 40k media with fully freedom to go grimdark.
I thought Archie Comics just licensed TMNT. Because Mirage kept putting out new comics (and unlike with Nick it seemed to lack the Archie logo or ownership (IDW TMNT has this for Nick)).
Someone else pointed that out too. I thought it was a buyout. My bad.
Lets see the kids novel that explores being turned into a servitor.
Nice.
Honest to God, with the way the real world news looks at times I read 40k and Trench Crusade for the escapism.
For me, the tone down of grimdark relate a lot with modern day ideas of future, in the 80s, 90s, early 2000s, people have great expectation for the future, looking foward to a technological and bright society, so authors and artists give them a taste of a Grimdark and horrible future that "will not be". Now, everyone (or most part of the world) dont look foward to something and see the future as some terrible destiny cause by our choses, or their daily life are as horrible as can be, just look at the wave of Post-Apocaliptic media in the previous years, so now people want a place were they can run away from the future (or the present).
When the grimdark future is not a fun idead and is more of a possible destiny or a refletion of the present, its not fun anymore.
Good point. I think one reason players resonate with 40k is because of how it brings in elements of the past into the sci-fi world.
For Grimdark to evolve, it needs new carriers, destabilize its genome, multiply, and diversify.
Isn’t Old World more good vs evil. Alliance vs Chaos.
I think so, but I don't think Old World claims grimdark like 40k does. I just looked at 40k.
My understanding is the flair GW was going for in Old World was to be the retelling of a piece of history, as opposed to the actual period.
Like the claim I say where 300 is supposed to be a retelling of Thermopolie by a Spartan to psych up his friends.
I'm slowing sinking my 40k ship and packing all my essentials on too the AoS ship until that one begins leaking too. Hopefully Trench Crusade doesn't suffer and serves as a bastion and safe haven for true Veterans of the Long War.
13:02 Reminds of the fantasy TTRPG settings I created with my friends.
Among them the two best were Montera and Aleusur (our current fantasy setting)
Montera was made with strict control and it was a great setting lorewise, but the things is: we unintentionally created a world in which peace between races and technological progress towards a utopian steampunk era was inevitable.
We got bored of this scenario and stopped to play rather quickly, although it would be amazing to live in it.
Then there is Aleusur, I wrote almost everything alone and the results were interesting, a fantasy world were there is the Entropy, a complete mindless force that brings the absolute and inevitable wear and tear to all of reality, what can mortals and celestials (who are a bunch of dicks in their own right)do?
Keep fighting against the unavoidable, races work together not because of understanding, they fight together because Entropy created a tidewave of demons at one front, legions of devils at another and many threats around the world.
And there is Syntropy, the opposite of Entropy? It's good? Well it spawned the dragons, giants (another bunch of dickheads) and goddamn mind flayers.
Aleusur is the setting we are playing the most.
What pulled me to the OPR games was never the grim or the darkness of its setting.
Me either. I like the simplicity of the rules and gameplay.
Trench Crusade honestly feels like Diet 40k to me. If I were going to do something off-brand Grimdark, I’d rather it be something wildly creative like Turnip28.
I think that the alternative history setting allows it to stand on its own.
LONG LIVE THE TURNIP!!!
Have heard of it, but haven't played yet.
Makes me a bit bummed out Grimdark Future isn’t grimdark at all. It feels more like Mass Effect. Even 40k is losing its edge and becoming more space opera
OPR is just a solid ruleset to use across settings though imo
Bang on, I think your take hits the nail on the head
I think we will find out just how grimdark GW wants to keep 40k when they come out with their live action series.
I don't think OPR abandoned grimdarkness to get to a wider audience. I think their intentions are differentiating themselves from GW, find their own identity.
I agree. If it sounded like I was saying so that wasn't my intention. I think they went with a less-grimdark vibe overall, from the outset.
As someone who's not a fan of grotesqueness and gore, I won't be touching trench crusade
You should try a game called Candyland.
@@EyeXombie how mature.
may i recommend star wars legions if you like a more toned down and cheaper war game?
@EyeXombie So are all you guys who like this stuff, just closet Satanists or something ?
@@HappyNoob17YT I have several wargames including that one.
Just awaiting the 2nd edition product
I never really thought of grim dark as being anti-tolkian. As I love both lotr and Warhammer. Perhapes its the contrast between them that draws me back and forth.
I think it's good for Grimdark settings to include a number of humanizing moments, because I think that makes for good contrast.
One type of grimdarkness that I think is very cathartic is seeing someone unambiguously good and noble being destroyed by his own setting. It reminds me of Dostoevsky's The Idiot, which is all about someone as forgiving and noble as Jesus Christ being a hindrance to himself and so those around him if he had been born in the Russia of the time.
I've orbited both Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K and the thing I was worried about with 40K is that it'd get one-note after a while. And if I was going to play something one-note, I'd rather play Lizardmen and Tomb Kings.
The humanizing moments of 40K have shown me that it's not just grimdumb. It's certainly hooked me and the grimdarkness is still available to me. I do wonder as well if they'll skew the setting too much towards hopefulness, but right now, I'm happy to get into blood angels, SoB and Orks. I'm making the former two Mesoamerican-inspired and the latter are Da Konkeeztadorks.
I'm also tooling around with Trench Crusade. I plan to make a Trench Pilgrim warband inspired by the Malleus Maleficarum, with a printing-press ballista printing and launching holy scrolls. I have similar concerns with Trench Crusade that I did with 40K, but I'm excited to try and contribute to a starting community.
Trench Crusade isn’t grimdark.
It’s Grimderp.
Darkness for darknesses sakeS
I think the answer is pretty clear. When you hear people talk about one page rules, it is as an avenue through which they can play their own games with a more linear rule set. You are literally the first person I've heard of tell that there was an actual universe behind OPR. People play Trench Crusade because they enjoy the universe of Trench Crusade. I don't know what you would call success, but that sounds like it.
Normies ruin everything
Some niche things need to stay niche
My line is when grimdark becomes grimderp. Such as Characters acting so wildly out of character just to cause drama, or 'no good end ever for any reason period'.
I love the artwork of 40k, but this I love even more! It is different and darker. Add to the fact that we don't have to pay the prices that we pay for GW, I can see who will be the winner in that battle.
yeah, there are some amazing artists out there. Its' nice that now we can see them all so easily.
Interesting. I dont necessarily agree that GW will have to choose though. I dont see why thay cant continue marketing their games to different audiences in different ways with each handwaving away the existence of the other.
Perhaps, but I keep thinking "you can please some people all the time, or all people some of the time, but not all people all the time."
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming while that's true... perhaps GW don't need to. I think there was definitely a period where the consciously decided to make the settings more 'family friendly'. They realised this was putting off older players and I think for quite a while now they've been consciously trying to please both groups of people. And I think it's working. It is perfectly possible to enjoy the game and ignore the cartoons on the Community page and avoid the children's books. And equally, the grimmer, darker elements don't need to be on the box of the sets they sell in Barnes and Noble.
Perhaps it might not be possible to please all of the people all of the time, but they can mostly please most people most of the time (at least with regards how they portray their settings).
Im just here because i love one page rules
And glad you're here because of it.
It’s funny the more grimdark you go the more it becomes comedy like aspects in 40k are genuinely funny in a satirical way like corpse starch if you’ve had some MREs then you’d be able to draw the line and chuckle or all the doors that use human brains to automatically open when that’s so unnecessary considering they have ftl and have discovered invisible tech but can’t figure out a simple sensor we use in Walmart
Lots of good points here. I definitely think Trench Crusade hold true to the actual definition of Grimdark. I think 40K and OPR move away from Grimdark for different reasons. I think 40K is moving away to become marketable and accessible to a wider audience for money reasons. I think OPR has been trying to distance themselves from 40K and have inadvertently moved in the same direction 40K is headed. Lots of the lore I have read seems to be them trying to establish their own world and lore, little by little. I'm okay with this as I can only handle true Grimdark (like TC) in small doses.
I like the comparison to Grimdark being Anti-Tolkien. Over the years I have come to find I prefer my fantasy morality to be black and white, while my sci-fi morality I prefer to be gray.
GW should adapt the same model comics and even the streaming series that Marvel did. There are several layers of Marvel aimed at different audiences from the youngster group, then the Teen group then full on adult. Kid friendly Hawkeye, not kid friendly DareDevil and Legion.
Trench crusade is only cool right now because its lore new RIGHT NOW. Every other grim dark slog gets old because it never ends. GOT was cool but every good story has to have a plot that ends. How many good stories do you know that you've effectively walked away from because they just wouldn't let it die. Holding on to grimdark for grimdark sake is the same as keeping Aunt May alive. forever.
One thing people don't realize is that, surprisingly enough, Grimdark requires ACTUAL TANGIBLE EVIL. This may seem contradictory at first, because one could say 'but muh morally gray 40k, everyone is evil'. Yes, everyone is an asshole, but some are more asshole than others. In order for a setting or story to evoke true, absolute darkness it need more than just wishy washy human evils and going 'oh but this place is bad because inequality, muh bigotry' and whatnot. Its the necessary component of the universe that makes everything else click. Its what put the likes of the Imperium is all the horrible positions it always has to be, BECAUSE the external threat is such universal and irreversible annhilation.
It NEED something as truly utter evil and pants on head crazy as chaos, it NEED things as vile and self serving as the Dark Eldars. It need forces as uncompromising as the Orks and Tyranids and, sure you can have more grey-ish factions who are assholes but you have to understand that they too are self serving assholes BECAUSE the universe is so full of threats of such a cosmic magnitude that there simply is no better option beyond trucking on and still keeping the fight even if the cost in human/eldar/tau lives is horrific. Because the alternative is so, so much worse.
THAT is why 40k needs its pure evil faction, because it both forces the likes of the Imperium to both struggle as the heroic anti hero while also being reduced to a state of cruelty and evil to its fellow man that is on an unimaginable scale. If there was no outside force so beyond its power to defeat, then there wouldn't be the struggles that make the setting what it is. This is why a world need absolute evil (or at the very least 'absolute alien hostility which can never be reasoned with') in order to be grim and dark.
Good point. There needs to be real conflict and dichotomy, but I think it makes it richer if the good guys are just good, but paragons. When the good guys have flaws, and the bad guys have at least one redeeming value, it really adds depth.
Another good example is Mutant Chronicles - most of the factions are just Diesel Cyberpunk - and then you have the Dark Legion with its five Dark Apostles (aka Chaos Gods) - and the guys left on Earth, who are used as mercenaries by the Megacorps.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Maybe so in some situations, but its not necessarily a key component when it come to grimdark and what 40k was originally going for. The modernist obsession with grey morality is killing most of traditional fantasy because everyone insist on making villains misunderstood sadboi who were only pushed into villainy because of victimhood.
Whereas under more traditional morality, victimhood or perceived affront does not instantly justify actions. In 40k's case, the Primarchs who fell to Chaos are entirely correct in the sense of being mad at the Emperor for lying to them/not trusting them/being a general purpose asshole but it does not and never will justify the absolute depths of moral depravity that the Traitor Legions fell to in Heresy and the 10 000 years that followed.
A villain having depth does not make him any less of a villain, because evil is a CHOICE while under modern 'morality', evil is not a choice and they are just sad oppressed people lashing out at the evils of the world.
5:45 they did an amazing job with Naruto
Really? I'm afraid I'm a complete ignoramus with most anime and manga.
I hope GW will revert back to their 3rd edition take on warhammer 40k because that was the style that drew people like me into it, if it becomes just another Star Wars then it will lose its appeal
BattleTech
The BT community out here is both big and intensely loyal.
I love One Page Rules because they make a fun game and do not hate me for voting for someone. ❤
The discord probably would, but what Discord isn't total ass cancer?
@@Skritz-mt9zb I haven't had any trouble with the Necropolis 28 discord so far.
I think trench crusade goes too far in my opinion it's so dark and grossly offensive that I can't see any enjoyment in the game & lore (besides trench pilgrims & ghosts)
I love the horror- sci-fi of 40k a lot but I think Trench crusade is trying too hard and comes off as edgy for the sake with nothing to say. I'm glad people enjoy it and it fills the wants of certain gamers but this will be a universe I warp past*
Honestly even 1d4chan/1d6chan. Sometimes understands that there's grimderpiness and sometimes trying to move away from that can consiquently take away some of the grimdarkness. It like a weird scale to balance.
Not helping matters is that there's multiple writers for 40k so your mileage may very by a lot.
Pretty Epic Video! Thank you!
Thank. Appreciate the kinds words.
@@Good.Nuff.Gaming Keep it up. Every word was fine Poetry and Music in my Ear!
I mean 40K didn’t used to be very grim dark, tbh we going more back to the 90z 40k
If I remember, initially it was really silly, like over the top space marine riding space dolphins to impress eldar babes, or am I thinking of something else?
I pledge allegiance to ME. I want grim-dark, period. GW can play patty cake w/shareholders all they want. Trench Crusade definitely has my attention. I shall watch their future with great interest. Now all I want is some lore/novels based in TW. Come get me bro, my wallet is listening.
I was always a fan of Slaanesh and the direction they took She-Who-Thirsts and the lack of a future for her that I see is violently disheartening to me. The models used to be vibrant and sexy but they have gotten blander and drabber and the sensuality is all but gone. I miss the old 40k and don't even get me started on what they did to WhFB....
Fun fact. Jon heder served a 2 year mission in Japan. He speaks fluent Japanese. He has four kids. His whole family are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of ladder-day saints. ❤
:)
GW: For in the Grim Darkness of the present day, there is only PROFITZZZZZZZ!!!!
Personally I don't think Trench Crusade goes far enough, or really interrogates how the setting affects actual history that is still linked to the actual crusades. Not to mention I feel that a lot feels like it was ripped out of Dark Souls. Take the crudader in black armor or the forces of Hell, they'd fit right into a Souls-like based on the stuff FromSoftware has produced. The setting sounds interesting, but feels boring or out of place.
You do make a good point in why something like One Page Rules has a much softer experience for grimdark. But this also brings up what some call "grim-derp," where something is so cartoonishly dark or edgy that it makes no sense.
The mask comic was a lot more gory and grimdark compared to the movie
Did it come before or after the film? I didn't know the film was an adaptation.
I think I'm gonna have to look deeper into Trench Crusade. Holy shit.
There were other pics I didn't post because I wasn't sure if TH-cam would go crazy. The artists went all out.
@Good.Nuff.Gaming Yeah, you've certainly convinced me to check it out. This goes HARD.
Only problem with trench crusade is the discords mod team, they’re insufferable hacks.
I think there is too much grimdark and the point is when you don't feel nothing. If everyone is equally evil you won't root for either side and if everything is lost you won't get invested into the story
One thing I wonder is why would games workshop even need to tone down Warhammer, when something like Game of Thrones was widely accepted by normies in spite of or because of it's brutality and edginess?
This bummed me out.
Dont forget the biggest change to TMNT; that the cartoon was named Teenage Mutant HERO Turtles instead of Ninja 🙃
I saw that on a kid's shirt when I was in England on vacation, but I never saw that in the US or Canada.
i feel like horus heresy is lieges more grimdark compared to 40k
i also think that gw wont sacrifice grimdark entirely, specificly because of the backlash