Ever since you ride with him in the first mission and ask what happened in blackwater. That's the game telling you Dutch is loosing control. Micah also showed hints from the beginning.
The first mission with micha, lenny said he killed a man and there was law immediately swarming them showing that micha was a rat from the beginning, already have law enforcement with him. But he did kill a man so they had to arrest him I assume.
Definitely. When you play the story through a second time you begin to see Dutch’s madness kicked in long before the Braithwaites and Bronte. I personally think when Arthur was beaten and kidnapped by the O’Driscoll’s during the meeting Micah set up should have been the straw that broke the camels back and now replaying through, it feels like a huge plot hole because how the hell do the 3 of them go to the meeting, only 2 make it back, and nobody evens wonders about Arthur? Micah definitely set that up, and if we didn’t know any better about the happenings between Dutch and colm, it’d make you think it was a part of Dutch’s plan
Micah wasn't a rat. Michah was a loose cannon with a survival by any means instinct. That's why he brings law with him, he also brings violence and death, so that's normal. He seemed very helpful sometimes, even in Guarma. And you ask, then who was the rat? It's most obvious than anything really. It's more than one people. There's Abigail, that wants to protect John and Jack by any means. It's Molly, that starts to see where Dutch is going. And I think Bill, as a drunk and a loudmouth, might have made more harm than good in a lot of situations.
If you read Arthur’s diary there are entries from before the game starts, even months before the Blackwater job. In them you learn that the gang had their eye on a piece of land in the West that they were going to buy but Dutch decidedly against it. Apparently because he had a bad feeling about it, like the law was onto them. But I think it’s more likely that that was the closest the gang had ever been to finally retiring and Dutch sabotaged it because what he really wants is to wage an endless war against the US government and civilization in general.
at the same time though if they were to just sit in one place the law would of found them at some point. he really really started to lose it after he hit his head it was like that and the trauma of seeing the people he knew die got to him. look at walter white the two characters they push it sometimes, and then eventually they both hit their heads. and that's when the obvious changes in personality start happening.
People have the ability to reinvent themselves. A man loses that ability when he becomes evil, which Dutch was not. He's displayed both acts of kindness and immorality. He asks Hosea, one on one - in Colter, to send someone to bury the body of Jake Adler. Dutch wanted desperately to be a man of honor, but his ideals and beliefs surrounding freedom and free will went up against the unstoppable force of civilization and the kind of decency that would denounce his way of life
yeah, folks can't understand dutch never actually went crazy. he was just a sociopath and narcissist prick that when faced real opposition lost him composure and showed his true colors. It's easier for John to say Dutch went crazy, bcs he wasn't educated enough to see how his once role model and father figure was always a terrible person
People want to pin point a spot where Dutch "lost it" when the whole narrative is about a man whose characteristics are turned from strengths to liabilities by circumstances and systems beyond his ability to cope with them. Dutch has traits of idealism, confidence, romance, charisma, but because he's an outlaw, the nature of living on the harsh edge of civilization makes those run into reality; into consistent failures. There was no "moment" where it went wrong. Dutch under a different set of circumstances would have flourished, if he had been born into a family of influence and wealth he'd die fat and happy in a soft bed, most likely a politician or tycoon. His idealism keeps smacking against the true material nature of his era and vocation, which wounds his sense of self worth, as his worldview he desperately wants to hold onto is constantly undermined by the circumstances he finds himself in. Seeing things fail again and again wounds that confidence and pride, and turns it to arrogance and obstinance. His ideology stopped working as the times kept changing, and it hurts his sense of self, and every reminder of it is salt in the wound. He's a romantic, and that pushes him to try to plant a garden in bad soil (a "wholesome" outlaw family could never end well), and as the failures (and corpses) pile up, the pain of confronting everything he's thought and known is too much to do. He wants to believe there is a place for someone who lives for themselves outside normal society WITHOUT those people being nihilistic bastards like all the other gangs. When Kieran talks about how there's not much light between the Van Der Lindes and the O'Driscolls, none of them want to hear it, but by the end, even Dutch finally had to learn that hard lesson that there is no room such frivolity in the brutal nation known as America. That's his sin in the world he finds himself, and it only produces suffering. Where he ends up isn't the fault of a single trigger, or him being born a bad egg. The big lesson here is RDR2 is the story of what happens when you take a man like Dutch and consistently apply pressure on him over time. Him snapping at Hosea here isn't "evidence" that he's gone insane. It's simply that Dutch is a product of his time, and that time had now passed, and we watch over the course of a year as the idealistic Dutch dies, and a new, more pragmatic version of himself grows in its place. A man with no ideals, no beliefs, just a simple individualism. A man fit for the 20th century- there is no room for family or ideals, just ruthless competition and surviving, where others are disposable pawns. Red Dead Redemption is about the end of a romantic age, where delusions of enlightenment wither in the face of the cold, hard and ruthless reality that is industrial capitalism. If Dutch was on the right side of the law, he'd become Leviticus Cornwall, but since he wasn't, he became Micah. It's a study of what happens when your belief system does not find purchase in your surroundings.
This gang survived for almost 25 years. And we only got to see their end, imagine how much this gang has been through, how many members it’s had and lost. Imagine a red dead game set in the absolute glory days, maybe around 1885 or something, all the older members like Dutch arthur Hosea John all 15 years younger full of vigor and ambition, having real fun in all their lawlessness riding through the west, Dutch’s ideals and principals being at their peak. Now that would be something to behold.
I wonder how they'd end that game, maybe introduce another gang member who we've not heard of, who gets some sort of redemption by the end, they could even make Arthur a playable character in the Epilogue, or Arthur AND John, two character system like gta v I know some people said it'd be cool to end a third RDR game with the gang going off to the Blackwater boat job, but it doesn't leave much room for an Epilogue, or even if that was the ending to an Epilogue, there's not much room for free roam afterwards, some people even said we could play as Mac or Davey Callander, but I think (depending on what Jenny's role was), a third RDR game could revolve around playing as her, do a female protagonist, badass gunslinger like Sadie
@@matthewlacey4198 well maybe the main story could be centred around Dutch building his gang and the main story ending would be Dutch gang killing some government official boss or something. Like someone after their gang or some rival enemy. Then the epilogue would be a timeskip to the blackwater incident where everything started to downfall after that
There's also that part at the beginning of Chapter 3 when Dutch has a whole Freudian slip. After he goes fishing with Arthur and Hosea, when they're getting back to camp he says "Well I think I... I mean we... are gonna be ok." He let it slip that he really is just looking out for himself and his own interests.
I took it as him letting a little bit slip about the state of his mind up to that point. And then spinning it as being concerned about the general well being of the gang to help deflect.
I got that dialogue the other night and I could see through the bullshit instantly. Dutch I think is a typical narcissist with bipolar disorder because of how flip floppy his emotions are. One day you’ll come to camp and it’s “Arthur! My boy!” The next is “Dammit we’ve got to stick to the plan we need money!”
You cam notice that even earlier, when you are riding off with Dutch towards adler’s ranch during the first mission Dutch says to Charles: “Get indoors, son. I… We need you strong”
@@eduardoribeiro6734Mary Linton does that too when Arthur brings back her brother she states, “I-we were worried about you.” When referring to her and her father, but in reality she was only talking about herself. It’s a constant dialogue choice, throughout the writing of the game.
I always felt it was the pressure from decades of looking over his shoulder as more and more of the world grew hungry for his blood and trying to balance that on top of looking after people he loves who only continue to be cut down, starting with Annabelle. The cracks of his spiritual decay always shine brightest in the game right after a death in the gang. Here in Colter they're still fresh from the loss of 3 members in Blackwater, a state-sized hornets nest kicking their heels and the rest of the clan that did survive is just barely keeping from freezing to death. Increasingly frustrated with the eternal stress leads to him at games end saying "fuck it" and giving up on people and giving in to his hatreds.
It's a nice theory, and I agree! But when he finds a "score" or the O'Driscolls, you notice Dutch slowly turning the grief to greed. And that's what really unmasks him. He's not only lost, but he really is also a bloodlust killer
Yup I agree, he's trailing off into the distance with paranoia. When Arthur revealed to him about the Pinkerton approaching him, offering a deal to him just to give up Dutch's location. He asked Arthur "why didn't you take it?" Arthur just brushes it off making it seem like it was just Dutch's dark humor but when it shows Dutch's face, he looks dead serious. This paranoia of him also made him convinced (with a help from Micah no doubt) that Abigail was poisoning John's mind which culminates in him supposedly being the "rat" that screwed them during the botched San Denis bank heist.
Yeah also micah says it would be easier to run and hide with a smaller group. That why it's easy for him to think everyone against him. Easy for him to feel like there betraying him. Than for him to tell them to go. Dutch is such a complex character even the last thing he dose in the game makes you question and think about it again. Really well made game. Would love one last prequel with dutch and the gang in there prime and see what leads to blackwater hiest and see more layers of dutch. Was he always like it and he hid it because he wanted to be better or was he conning the gang with his smooth talking
That is a very good take, I actually think though that Dutch began to lose it when his wife was killed so hopefully the next red dead can go over the past events
I just assumed that the player spent a lot of time in chapter 1 that everyones hair grew. because I know Arthur's does. Even when you're not playing. You could log back in after a while, take two steps and Grimshaw will go. "Arthur you're way too dirty."
@@Dementia_Springtrap Grimshaw has sleeper agents in every hotel. They are the women who help bathe you if you get a Deluxe Bath (which, let's be real, who tf doesn't).
I don't know why from the beginning, I'd had some doubts about Dutch, the way he constantly reminded everyone of his plan and made others doubt themselves by asking if they had lost faith in him. But because I trusted Arthur, and Arthur trusted Dutch, so I didn't think too much about it. It's like being gaslighted by Dutch himself 😂
Took me so long to finish the story because it was all so familiar to me, I just wanted to stop it, but Arthur kept going along with the plans and my choices didn't matter.
Dutch is an amazingly written character. On paper having a game based on Dutch working his way up to the black water massacre would be cool as shit, but it’d be difficult to pull off.
I'd like to see a game about the early days of the gang out west with john, dutch, arthur, and hosea. I feel like playing as dutch would be a fun concept for anyone who's played the other 2 games cause you'd know how his story ends. The end of the story has to be at the blackwater massacre though because thats the genesis of where the gang starts to unravel.
@@AB-vn2jcthe only issue would be that ending the plot or Epilogue with the gang going off to the Blackwater boat job wouldn't leave much room for free roaming after the story/epilogue, but that would be really cool if they were able to pull it off
@@matthewlacey4198maybe they could have a few members that took a different route and survived to also tell the story of the black water massacre who’s to say Dutch wasn’t close to any other members you could play as them and get to know them throughout the story in the final mission we could get the start of dutch being a traitor that the rest of the gang from the story of rdr2 never saw and leaves them behind as Dutch runs off in a hurry not telling the main members of rdr2 what happened to rest of the crew in a hurry they all leave without asking much
I’m on chapter 5 I think approaching chapter 6. This is my first time playing and next I’ll play the first game also for the first time. I’m heartbroken because of the way the group is now and Micah is suddenly Dutch’s best friend. Strangers in the camp, eating camp food like they’re part of the group annoys me too. Dutch has pretty much turned on Arthur, because “it wasn’t the right time to rescue John”. I just witnessed a conversation between John and Dutch talking about this and I am certain Dutch would have let John hang. I got mad when I was talking to Dutch and Micah comes over next to Dutch and folds his arms like he’s protecting Dutch. I read some things accidentally and I know things will get worse. I miss being in Horseshoe overlook when everyone seemed happy and the camp was nice. Is it weird I’m getting emotional about this? I’m sad and angry.
Without spoilers for chapter 6 make sure Arthur gets high honour soon. You will understand after the chapter. You will feel good you did that for him :D
I've noticed a lot more concerning behaviour from Dutch early in the game now that I'm on my second play-through. It really was right from the beginning that he had problems.
Same. On my third playthrough. In chapter two in camp he said to Arthur: "I think you will betray me." and it wasn't a joke. I was really shocked hearing that although I had no illusions about Dutch.
@@chrissiesbuchcocktailI always felt a bit uneasy with dutch and his whole loyalty belief, I felt he was going to transcend those very beliefs he preaches. He also slipped up during the boat fishing scene with hosea, arthur and dutch, where he mentioned he wanted to do this for himself not for his gang which only solidified it.
even on the first playthrough, when u don’t know what Dutch is gonna become, there is so much to catch about him being a narcissist. I didn’t knew who Dutch was (I played RDR2 first) and I didn’t found him charming for long, I started to dislike him at the beginning of chapter 2. I would love to see a compilation of every paranoid or narcissistic moment Dutch had way before his mental problems started showing
@MM-ne2cl me personally I started to get iffy about Dutch after the bank job in Saint Denis going into Guarma. That was when he really started to descend into the real person he was and losing hosea like that and the fact he admitted later that he would've preferred John rot in jail. But when you're talking to Javier he says how Dutch killed a girl on the blackwater job so that just makes me believe Dutch was always crazy and selfish but tried to mask it behind his bullshit ideals
He never answers Arthur’s or other gang’s serious questions properly but just gaslights them back. He was never a trustful person from the beginning. He just got worse
He was alright here. Dutch genuinely cared about the gang. He was just never able to admit he was wrong and never accepted a critics. Hosea was a much wiser leader and tactician. That pissed him off. But Dutch never hated him.
Did you seriously just sympathise with Dutch? Rockstar even tells us Dutch has already started losing it with the Blackwater Massacre - he's a manipulative, lying false prophet to his gang
@@rambo-cambo3581 Yes I did, because it this point in the game he hasn't lost Hosea, gotten the head injury, neither had Micah properly started to manipulate him, which were the three main factors of his downfall. At this point, he was just a good leader who cared for the gang.
John and Hosea were the only two that knew that dutch had totally lost it Arthur always says "we're going to be alright" until chapter 4, there he knows that dutch ain't totally right
Pretty much everyone started to see that Dutch has slowly started to change, Hosea knew earlier than anyone. Arthur already started to have doubts about Dutch since Blackwater massacre, but he chose not to believe it or question it.
The more and more I play the game the more I realize nothing actually really changes since blackwater it's just that the start of the game puts you in a cold miserable place. You're lead to believe going to warmer weather is a saving grace but eventually that warm weather is just the heat of the law. It always was too. The second train robbery with the oil can? It was bait. Every step they were followed one behind when they thought it was two or three
Dutch has always been crazy. He enjoyed the outlaw lifestyle. Being the leader of a fearful gang, doing whatever he wants. Helping those he likes and punishing those he don't. Dutch never wanted to settle down. He never wanted tahiti or an other place he fed the gang to keep them around. He wanted what they had already. It was just no longer viable because they could no longer overpower the small townn sherif with organised government gaining control.
I dont think the trolley accident theory is that the crash alone drove him crazy. Its that a serious head injury was just another factor among many that led Dutch over the edge.
Hes a group leader looking after about 20 people who are all like family to him, he's just under a lot stress and this doesn't prove anything. It's not even a theory, its just fact and heavily implied by R*.
@@calebmarek facts because even before the first mission, Dutch killed an innocent woman in the black water heist. The money and power he felt was what drove him crazy
@@calebmarek No it’s not, and it’s not a theory, it’s fact. Dutch sustained a head injury, R* even not so subtly hinted at it. Not saying he’s a good guy at all, and it was not the only cause of his downfall, but it was definitely one of the main reasons, if not the main reason.
It's crazy how in chapter 1&2 I loved Dutchs character. Then it's a steady decline into the man we saw in RDR1 Even in RDR1, Dutchs gang is mostly Native men. Just like Eagle flies and his tribe during chapter 6
I think the whole story of red dead 2 from start to end is one of redemption for Arthur and documenting from start to finish dutches descent into madness. As opposed to from one point in the story
truthfully, i think stress is what did him in. think about how many gang members in just this game alone. how many more were there? hom much has dutch lost? PLUS the head injury? stress slowly and painfully killed him.
I just started playing and Dutch is and was always bat shit crazy. I was hanging around camp there other day and Dutch just started going off on me as I was walking by. And then five minutes later he was saying how everything was smiling that day. Dude's cracked.
In my opinion, Dutch doesn't change that much from the first to the last chapter. I interpret it that way, that Arthur slowly realizes how Dutch really is, and that we see that change through his eyes, since we get to know the story from his view.
It's really unfortunate which gang members died during the story, I'm convinced that's why the standoff in Beaver Hollow was so one-sided. I feel like Hosea, Lenny and Sean would've definitely sided with Arthur, John and Susan if they were still around.
The ways Rockstar hinted that Dutch was a narcissist from the very beginning is incredible. They even used had Dutch’s tent be the first living camp upgrade to imply that Dutch is self-centered and puts his own needs and desires before others.
The story is Arthur learning to think for himself and part of that is seeing how his life has been ruled and ruined by Dutch, and trying to make things better with what he has left at that point.
RDR1 players who remembered the mission where Dutch robs the bank in blackwater and kills the woman in cold blood to escape could anticipate that things were already fucked when they heard about Heidi McCourt and what seemingly happened to her on the ferry in chapter 1. truly a masterpiece how they wrote the story backwards with so many references back and fourth between the games.
@@AB-vn2jc that’s not true, it’s not that black and white he only mixes words like that twice in the game and you’ve got to remember he’s under a lot of pressure they barely escaped with their lives lost all their money and have about half the Pinkerton detective agency after them
Dutch had a hatred of authority figures his whole life, starting with his mother. Which is why he left home. But in order to be an authority figure himself, he had to act with control and restraint. I think Arthur and Hosea did a good job of keeping that hatred at bay and keeping Dutch composed. I think Micah was the person who brought that hatred of authority back to Dutch. Micah reignited that "hatred" of order and any type of authority. Chaos, which was Dutch's original aim, came to the surface again. Any pretence he had of nobility and humility just faded. He became the person he always was.
Yeah, taking care of so many people for years, even teaching some gang members how to read and write, i dont think dutch always have been a bad guy, afterall he was on command for years, maybe with other prequel on rdr3, we could see other side of dutch. A real good side of him. And sorry for my english not my language, trying my best.
He set himself up to have full monopoly control. If he'd had been willing to share power/responsibility of decision making with Hosea and Arthur more, he'd have removed some stressors from his shoulders. But he likes control too much, so it'd have never happened, and that's exactly what drove him mad; he 'broke' under the misfortunes he'd engineered for himself.
In the end what happened is that Dutch actually found himself. The benevolent leader attitude and all that shit is just a mask, and with the world closing in on him he had to make a choice, get caught or let that mask fall for good. And he chose to let the demon out, and become a killer who does whatever it takes to get out alive in the end, which is why he likes Micah so much. The two actually think similarly, the difference is that Dutch hides his thoughts.
Dutch was going crazy from the start but he wasn’t losing faith in his original gang like Hosea and Arthur. He was always asking for their inputs and wanting them to help him out. Where I thought things began to change majorly was when dutch hit his head when the train crashed. After that he began to lose all respect and Micah finally was able to dig his way all the way in to Dutch’s head
Head injuries cause increased paranoia and aggression. Bad enough ones completely alter your personality. We are our brains, for the most part. What damages them, damages who we are.
I don't think Dutch went "crazy" or was "evil" I think bro just had traumatic thing after traumatic thing happen to him because of choices or calls he made that endangered not only himself but his gang family. Like there is no doubt Dutch genuinely loves or loved his gang, and because of that he tried to always front as competent to them so they wouldn't worry or be afraid in hard times. However it was exactly because of that, Dutch kept everything to himself and lashed out when people like Hosea or Arthur pointed out the obvious he was trying to push aside. Like the guy had his long-term girlfriend shot and killed in front of him- and Annabelle wasn't like Molly, Dutch loved her and she rode with the gang for a long time so of course Dutch would be having a bit of a mental episode after that. He's got that toxic mentality (likely learned from his father based on how Dutch talks about him) that he can't share his feelings with other people so it bottles up. After Annabelle's death Dutch wanted revenge so he killed Cain, but he got mad when that didn't fix how he felt and was real messed up then Micah noticed that and started taking advantage of Dutch's unstable emotional state by being a yes-man and feeding Dutch bad ideas resulting in Blackwater. After Blackwater which Dutch was shaken up about, I mean the guy shot a young girl which clearly affected him, he was forced to gather his gang and flee to the mountains which resulted in at least 3 deaths of his family since they never found Mac. The entire time Dutch is trying to ignore that he made a bad call and that the situation was more or less his fault. This of course had a snowball effect and more and more bad calls happened because of Micah's manipulation and Dutch's worsening mental state. People do not "become more like they truly are," that is something that is fundamentally against psychology. People become "evil" through trauma and situation. That does NOT make the actions okay or justifiable but the mentality that Dutch was always a bad person or always evil is very close-minded. Just because Rains Fall said his line about his thought's on Dutch does not mean he is right, given his own trauma and situation, it makes sense for him to see things the way he does especially with how he already did not like Dutch because of how Dutch was feeding into Eagle Flies' anger. There is no sound argument that Dutch did not love the members of his gang, he wouldn't have taught them how to read and offer them safety and home if he didn't, he may have had weird parenting/leadership skills but that is just a realistic human thing- no one is perfect. I mean like Dutch is a much much better person than half the characters in RDR, sure he's egotistical and pretentious but those traits don't make you evil, trauma does. And of course trauma can also have the opposite effect too shown through Arthur who had the opposite effect after the trauma the gang went through. Arthur had better coping skills (even if they still weren't great) and was able to talk about how he was feeling to other people and reflect on the events in order to decide he wanted to be a better person and help John and the others get out of the situation even at the cost of his life. Anyway all that said ya'll ever think about how Dutch and Hosea lived together for 20+ years and raised like 5 kids together and that I guess Rockstar thought that was kinda sus and gave Hosea a dead wife to make it less sus??? Hosea was a theater kid and he's kinda fruity I think he and Dutch kissed a few times. Thoughts?
You don't just "become" the kind of man who will shoot a young woman for no good reason, and then try to justify it as being necessary for survival. You can however, become someone who no longer veils those violent and psychotic tendencies because of the immense amount of trauma you've endured and pressure you're under. I don't disagree that Dutch "loved" his gang, it's just that rather than view them as his family, he sees the gang as an extension of himself, the only exception being Hosea and possibly Annabelle. Dutch is a narcissist with radical ideals, not a misunderstood victim of trauma. I also strongly disagree that Rains-Fall is closed minded for saying people only become who they truly are. There is a huge amount of discourse on Nature vs. Nurture and it is absolutely not clear cut enough to call one point of view closed minded, or "fundamentally against psychology", that's ridiculous. The whole concept of self-actualization would disagree with you there. It's a bit like viewing Heisenberg as a sympathetic character because he had a wife and kids he cared about, then saying it was the meth game that made him how he is. Actually, come to think of it, Walter and Dutch would be an interesting comparison for this whole conversation. I do appreciate the thoughtful analysis though, despite how much I disagree, and I would really love to see what you think about my response. Also you can catch Dutch and Hosea holding hands in camp sometimes those two definitely smooch when Molly isn't looking.
@@E-gag ty for the response!! and i overall agree with you and appreciate the nuance of your view that i personally hadn't considered/heard eps as someone who thinks walter white for example is, and always was, a shithead. I think i just had/have bias when it comes to dutch as i relate to him a lot and all the "he was evil from the start" people I'd talked with prior would argue in a way that is very black and white, typically only pointing at the rains fall dialogue or like out of context camp convos as proof/simply shutting down any type of further discussion. (So in other words i was def writing that in a frustrated state w bias kjfhds) but overall i 100% agree that dutch is a very very self-centered person and have always thought so I also def recognize my poor wording and cringe takes from last year- i was kinda contradicting myself a bit even lol But yeah I guess I more see Dutch as not a good or bad person, but rather a person who is capable of both and did both I think my issue just stemmed more from the concept of type-casting people as inherently evil or good from conception since it devalues discussion and the ability for people to move on/learn from mistakes I think some people such as Dutch are more susceptible to doing evil things whether based on things like mental illness or poor coping mechanisms But just the phrasing of the question "did dutch become evil or was he always evil" just bothers me from both standpoints as someone who doesn't believe in people being evil to begin with inherently or otherwise since it strips blame away from systems and other means that allowed for the evil to occur i guess But yeah Dutch n Hosea are wild, gay old man cowboys still thinkin bout dutch calling hosea "old girl" .,...
@@straightplonker The game has heavy themes of good people doing bad things and vice versa, and I think Dutch (alongside Arthur of course) is sort of the centerpiece of that theme. He seems to struggle between giving into his "nature" and staying loyal to his adoptive family, right up until he kills Micah. I think that was really the last nail in the coffin for his psyche. His ideals and reason had failed him time and again, and I think it's with that final reminder of his failures that he decides to fully give in to his impulses. If nothing else, he will disrupt the system that wronged him and killed his only real "friend." It's somewhere in those three years of killing and running that he truly loses himself, and becomes the man we see in the first game. I definitely agree that the black and white view on things is reductive and ignorant, and can understand why you'd sort of lash out at the people spouting Rains Falls line in response. He for sure has a one sided view of Dutch, and heavy bias given what he's doing with his son, but I get the sense that he's seen that kind of man before. Someone so in love with himself and his ideals that he's blind to the evil he does. Up until Micah came around it seems that everyone around Dutch was at least somewhat decent. He didn't surround himself with rapists and cold blooded murderers that would encourage that side of him, and so he may have not seen himself in that light. Micah, being the other side of Dutch's coin, immediately saw through that facade, and smelled some kind of payday being either his bounty or the blackwater money. Dutch liked him, saw him as a pragmatist, let him enable his own dark impulses that he may have been in denial about, and when Arthur shows signs of his sickness, lets him take the place as his right hand, likely telling himself that it's for the good of the gang. As things get more and more desperate, he realizes that he can't have his war against the government AND his family, so he picks the former. He sees the consequences of this when he watches Micah kill Arthur, and realizes he's thrown away the only family he really had for the sake of some pipe dream, and rather than placing the blame solely on himself, he eventually places it on Micah, the man who made him see himself for what he really is, or at least, what he's become. Even Arthur says at one point "what happened in blackwater started happening long ago". All this to say, in that conversation, with the bit of context Arthur gives him, I think it's a very wise question for Rains Fall to ask. Dutch had been given the chance to learn and move on so many times, and still ended up where he was. I realize I'm rambling, I guess I've just never properly put my thoughts on this into words. I agree that people aren't inherently good or evil, it's your choices that define that, but I don't think Rains was necessarily saying he was born evil. Just that he always had evil in him, whether it was the evil around him that brought it out or he let it out himself is beside the point. We need a prequel with Dutch and Hosea sneaking around with each other behind Anabelle and Bessie's backs. Brokeback Mountain with con-men in the old west lmao
Honestly I don't think Dutch was EVER the charismatic idealist people think he was/is. I think he was always a con man who found that faking being the charismatic leader who cares got far better results than being a cruel or otherwise uncaring one. He even says so directly to Bronte before killing him. I think the "crazy moments" are just the mask slipping for a moment, Arthur is unreliable since he's basically been raised by Dutch and is blindly loyal. From Arthur's perspective, Dutch changed. Dutch didn't change, what changed was that his grand plan was falling apart as the lies are harder to string along and the law is catching up with him. He was promising to get moneh to buy land and put their banditry behind them, this was obviously a lie as they could've done this at literally any time. Hell, John barely changes his name and even uses his real one while getting his loan and buying the plot. If Dutch really wanted that life for the gang then they had the money to do that even before the game starts. He's lying, the whole "movement" is a fucking con.
I always saw it as him always being bad, but the times were different enough where they could easily slip away, but society around them changed while they refused to and it eventually bit them in the ass. Dutch always goes off on how he cant fight change, he knows this is a losing battle but he just cant give up on it, because then his whole lifes struggle would have been meaningless. Honestly even with Micah involved it may have sped up the process but even without him the gang would have crumbled
First time seeing this scene and recently I heard his rant about being a monkey in chapter 2. Both of those random moments throw that theory out the door for me.
I think it was a constellation of things that tipped him over the edge. The concussion is one more thing affecting the judgment of a man who was already cracking up.
He always was crazy, even before the game started. It's because everything started going wrong (the ferry job, gang member deaths) that his facade started cracking, and as things kept getting worse there was no going back.
i agree, but he's more of an egoist, by that i mean he could have saved Arthur, when we got to the endgame where we had to fight Micah, if he would have sided with Arthur, he would be approving that he did things wrong. he wanted John and Arthur to both die, leaving them behind instead of saving them, in both cases, twice - when Arthur was captured by Colm o'Driscoll and when he was held up by a soldier in the eagle flies mission. John could have been rescued before he got captured by the law, after John got captured, Dutch didn't bother getting him out of prison and in the train heist mission, instead of helping him, he left him behind. We could add that Micah is the reason of Dutch's stupid decisions, getting in Dutch's head making him not think about others. maybe everything would have gone different if Arthur left Micah behind in Strawberry jail.
to be fair this is shortly after suffering a huge loss. Forced into hiding in the freezing cold, loosing thousands of dollars, and loosing 3 members of the gang.. like yea he's definitely not going to be himself, he's had no time to recover
The fact that we're all STILL digging up dialogue and debating evidence and characterization astounds me. The sheer density of this masterpiece of entertainment, of storytelling. Arthur wonders aloud to himself and others multiple times whether Dutch has actually changed, or is just finally letting his true colors seep through. We're all still wondering as well, and putting forth ideas and theories for YEARS. Is him having his speech in the opening written down a sign of intentional, planned manipulation on his part, or him wanting to commemorate his people without flaw? Does he sustain personality-altering brain damage on the trolley station robbery, or is being so blatantly set up by a big city crime lord the straw that breaks the camel's back of Dutch's ego, either option being the wellspring from which all future sins will flow? Had Dutch abandoned his ideals as the noose of law and civilization tightens around him, or has he simply let the set-dressing of those ideals fall by the wayside? I personally think it was the Saint Denis bank job that truly broke down whatever idealism yet remained in Dutch. Such obvious evidence of betrayal from one of his own, the failure of another big score, and the deaths of his closest, oldest friend and youngest, ablest protege in Hosea and Lenny. One consistency of Dutch throughout is that he doesn't respond well to things not going according to plan, and short of the whole gang being taken or killed, which they nearly are, everything that could go wrong does go wrong with the Saint Denis bank job. Every fear and doubt and anger of his is manifested in the failure of that robbery. From that failed score onwards, Dutch becomes more and more openly his worst self within his old, soon-to-be-abandoned paradigm of noble warrior poet outlaw. Openly admitting to Arthur that he is simply riling up the Natives to fight an unwinnable battle simply so they will have more cover for another few thefts; being willing to leave John to potential execution in prison simply because rescuing him is tactically inconvenient. Dutch begins becoming the man who will in around a decade shoot a hostage in her head for absolutely no reason, and admit he wants to kill John and an mutual acquaintance purely for the sport of it. But then, all of this really begins because Dutch unnecessarily shot a woman in her head on the Blackwater ferry as the job fell apart. Who can say? That none of us truly can is a testament to the quality of the writing and characterization of RDR 1 and 2.
This is often overlooked, but Dutch's insanity might've started just after Colm O'Driscoll killed his girlfriend Annabelle in retaliation for his brother. The events of RDR2 and prior, and also the presence of Micah, only helped fueling this insanity.
The decline of the gang and Dutch morality has started after Blackwater massacre basically. But it's also implied that Dutch has shown his true colors in the end, a man with no morals whatsoever ready to sacrifice everyone for his own interest.
Dutch was always a narcissist, a con man and a manipulator. He's a cult like figure who only valued those who did not question him. I don't think there is one specific moment where he begins to change. This becomes pretty evident as the game goes on. And I believe Arthur himself notes this a few times as well. It's why Dutch would ultimately side with Micah over his "son" or "brother" Arthur.
Dutch: Lost people in a botched robbery. Travelling in the freezing mountains for days. Just barely found shelter and is exausted. Yall: He's crazy from the start!
He was always "crazy". It's hinted at in dialogue throughout the entire game especially in chapter 6. Dutch is a narcissist. Narcissistic leaders can be charming, charismatic and well liked as long as things go as they want and when they can control people. Dutch first lost control of his plans and then of his gang when they started "doubting" him. He saw it as offensive and a threat because that is what narcissists do they see all criticism as a threat or as an insult, Dutch just possessed the people skills and charisma to hide his rage (common among communal narcissists) , but it became obvious in the end when he was under pressure that everything was a facade. The writing in this game is truly remarkable
Regardless, I don't think we ever get to see the more high-honor Dutch ever in the game. That was likely up to before Micah joined and before the gang was ever on the run from anything. I also presume that before blackwater, heists and robberies always went smooth and there weren't casualties of innocents, including lawmen. That's why I think a rdr game set before 2 wouldn't be easy to turn into a game with a lot of action-packed shooting besides through rival outlaws, the gang probably wasn't extreme in violence and were more like theives that stayed low profile.
You can tell the game is trying to portray that Dutch’s psychosis and insanity has been a long time coming for the gang, We catch them as their entire livelihood and world collapsing, With the woman on the Blackwater ferry being a determined slash on Dutch’s alleged character although RDR2 is the earliest we see of the character’s life.
When RDR 2 started, the gang was already in its downfall. Lenny and Arthur talk about this in one of the mission, something like "since jenny and mac died in blackwater its like our luck turned sour". That means, we might get to see a more graphically and mechanically advanced RDR set further in the past, in the actual glory days of the gang, ending in the blackwater massacre maybe? We'll see. Rockstar aint what it used to be unfortunately.
anyone who played rdr1 knows dutch was always insane, his MO was just to manipulate the gang for his ends, he just wanted to fight, bro was genuinely psychotic.
Dutch wanted them to basically go live a farmer life somewhere. But went crazier and crazier and just wanted to be a rebellious outlaw legend. Makes the most sense.
IMO Dutch was always ''crazy'' but Hosea and Arthur was able to hold that side of him back. Then Micah came in started to put thing into his ears. The big change came at the Ferry job in Blackwater where neither Hosea or Arthur where present but Micah was, so instead of being held back Dutch's mad tendencies where instead being encouraged. Everything just went downhill after that.
I think Dutch had some "Messiah syndrome" let's call it like that. He wanted to be a leader that everyone will listen to, follow his orders without doubts and just be with him forever. We can see how nervous he becomes in 4th chapter already when Arthur, Hosea and John doubt his plans. He couldn't accept that his plans may fail, he expected everyone to believe in him and his plans. When more and more gang members die, especially Hosea who more or less kept him sane, he went nuts completely. The gang starts to lose their faith in Dutch and it makes him more and more crazy. At the end of 6th chapter, he just didn't seem to care anymore because he knew that he's no longer perceived as the leader or messiah who will lead his people to their promised land. Either his people were with him until the end or against him.
Ever since you ride with him in the first mission and ask what happened in blackwater. That's the game telling you Dutch is loosing control. Micah also showed hints from the beginning.
Drama. It starts with slight inconveniences and ends with half the people in the gutter
Micah hints that he's a rat no, dutch crazy maybe or it's stress of being asked every minute wHaT iS tHe pLaN DuTcH
The first mission with micha, lenny said he killed a man and there was law immediately swarming them showing that micha was a rat from the beginning, already have law enforcement with him. But he did kill a man so they had to arrest him I assume.
Definitely. When you play the story through a second time you begin to see Dutch’s madness kicked in long before the Braithwaites and Bronte. I personally think when Arthur was beaten and kidnapped by the O’Driscoll’s during the meeting Micah set up should have been the straw that broke the camels back and now replaying through, it feels like a huge plot hole because how the hell do the 3 of them go to the meeting, only 2 make it back, and nobody evens wonders about Arthur? Micah definitely set that up, and if we didn’t know any better about the happenings between Dutch and colm, it’d make you think it was a part of Dutch’s plan
Micah wasn't a rat. Michah was a loose cannon with a survival by any means instinct. That's why he brings law with him, he also brings violence and death, so that's normal. He seemed very helpful sometimes, even in Guarma.
And you ask, then who was the rat? It's most obvious than anything really. It's more than one people. There's Abigail, that wants to protect John and Jack by any means. It's Molly, that starts to see where Dutch is going. And I think Bill, as a drunk and a loudmouth, might have made more harm than good in a lot of situations.
If you read Arthur’s diary there are entries from before the game starts, even months before the Blackwater job. In them you learn that the gang had their eye on a piece of land in the West that they were going to buy but Dutch decidedly against it. Apparently because he had a bad feeling about it, like the law was onto them. But I think it’s more likely that that was the closest the gang had ever been to finally retiring and Dutch sabotaged it because what he really wants is to wage an endless war against the US government and civilization in general.
Yeah, is willing to sacrifice everyone's safety, security, and happiness because of his narcissism
Thank you. I get how people miss it, but it's wild how *many* people miss details like this one.
at the same time though if they were to just sit in one place the law would of found them at some point. he really really started to lose it after he hit his head it was like that and the trauma of seeing the people he knew die got to him. look at walter white the two characters they push it sometimes, and then eventually they both hit their heads. and that's when the obvious changes in personality start happening.
@@alexharrison2743 like Heisenberg
*Decided. Not decidedly. Decided.
Therapist: Long beard Hosea isn't real, he can't hurt you.
Long beard Hosea: We'll see about that.
I readed " The rapist"
For real though, it’s so weird seeing him with a beard like that.
Looks unrecognizable
He look cool wdym he look like my Canadian uncle
I think it looks cold 🥶
man, the amount of dialog in this game is absolutely insane
Not the amount, but the quality is amazing
@@AntiSocialismo50 Considering the quality the quantity is quite amazing
Game's 119 GB.. maybe about 115 GB are just voice lines and the rest are the actual game files :D
have you played Guardians of the Galaxy? those mfs never stops talking, literally never.
thats highly unlikely lol
clearly they've been on the mountain for too long if the haven't been able to shave for that long, i'd be pretty stressed about it too.
I only remember hosea as a hairless cat
No man its just the new drip
@@oldironsides4107 Ikr its strange seeing him with a beard, makes him look like Uncle
@@shockkuuu he has a beard in the epilogue
@@kaidenhall2718 Hosea is fucking dead in the epilogue lmao
"People don't change, they just become more of who they really are" - Rains Fall
A gross on oversimplification that guy was a fool for thinking that
@@chrishilton3626 ?
People have the ability to reinvent themselves. A man loses that ability when he becomes evil, which Dutch was not. He's displayed both acts of kindness and immorality.
He asks Hosea, one on one - in Colter, to send someone to bury the body of Jake Adler. Dutch wanted desperately to be a man of honor, but his ideals and beliefs surrounding freedom and free will went up against the unstoppable force of civilization and the kind of decency that would denounce his way of life
yeah, folks can't understand dutch never actually went crazy. he was just a sociopath and narcissist prick that when faced real opposition lost him composure and showed his true colors. It's easier for John to say Dutch went crazy, bcs he wasn't educated enough to see how his once role model and father figure was always a terrible person
@@chrishilton3626Rain Ralls is legitimately the wisest person in both games, you must be very simple-minded if you don't understand what this means.
People want to pin point a spot where Dutch "lost it" when the whole narrative is about a man whose characteristics are turned from strengths to liabilities by circumstances and systems beyond his ability to cope with them. Dutch has traits of idealism, confidence, romance, charisma, but because he's an outlaw, the nature of living on the harsh edge of civilization makes those run into reality; into consistent failures. There was no "moment" where it went wrong. Dutch under a different set of circumstances would have flourished, if he had been born into a family of influence and wealth he'd die fat and happy in a soft bed, most likely a politician or tycoon. His idealism keeps smacking against the true material nature of his era and vocation, which wounds his sense of self worth, as his worldview he desperately wants to hold onto is constantly undermined by the circumstances he finds himself in. Seeing things fail again and again wounds that confidence and pride, and turns it to arrogance and obstinance.
His ideology stopped working as the times kept changing, and it hurts his sense of self, and every reminder of it is salt in the wound. He's a romantic, and that pushes him to try to plant a garden in bad soil (a "wholesome" outlaw family could never end well), and as the failures (and corpses) pile up, the pain of confronting everything he's thought and known is too much to do. He wants to believe there is a place for someone who lives for themselves outside normal society WITHOUT those people being nihilistic bastards like all the other gangs. When Kieran talks about how there's not much light between the Van Der Lindes and the O'Driscolls, none of them want to hear it, but by the end, even Dutch finally had to learn that hard lesson that there is no room such frivolity in the brutal nation known as America.
That's his sin in the world he finds himself, and it only produces suffering. Where he ends up isn't the fault of a single trigger, or him being born a bad egg. The big lesson here is RDR2 is the story of what happens when you take a man like Dutch and consistently apply pressure on him over time. Him snapping at Hosea here isn't "evidence" that he's gone insane. It's simply that Dutch is a product of his time, and that time had now passed, and we watch over the course of a year as the idealistic Dutch dies, and a new, more pragmatic version of himself grows in its place. A man with no ideals, no beliefs, just a simple individualism. A man fit for the 20th century- there is no room for family or ideals, just ruthless competition and surviving, where others are disposable pawns. Red Dead Redemption is about the end of a romantic age, where delusions of enlightenment wither in the face of the cold, hard and ruthless reality that is industrial capitalism. If Dutch was on the right side of the law, he'd become Leviticus Cornwall, but since he wasn't, he became Micah.
It's a study of what happens when your belief system does not find purchase in your surroundings.
Jinx?
damn this is a good take
This is an amazing analysis! Said what a lot of us couldn’t put into words.
@@Jodykang everyone’s a bit crazy in life that doesn’t my Dutch evil
I am gonna save this to my notes just because I enjoyed reading this
This gang survived for almost 25 years. And we only got to see their end, imagine how much this gang has been through, how many members it’s had and lost. Imagine a red dead game set in the absolute glory days, maybe around 1885 or something, all the older members like Dutch arthur Hosea John all 15 years younger full of vigor and ambition, having real fun in all their lawlessness riding through the west, Dutch’s ideals and principals being at their peak. Now that would be something to behold.
That would be AMAZING!!
I wonder how they'd end that game, maybe introduce another gang member who we've not heard of, who gets some sort of redemption by the end, they could even make Arthur a playable character in the Epilogue, or Arthur AND John, two character system like gta v
I know some people said it'd be cool to end a third RDR game with the gang going off to the Blackwater boat job, but it doesn't leave much room for an Epilogue, or even if that was the ending to an Epilogue, there's not much room for free roam afterwards, some people even said we could play as Mac or Davey Callander, but I think (depending on what Jenny's role was), a third RDR game could revolve around playing as her, do a female protagonist, badass gunslinger like Sadie
That’s basically what rdr3 is gonna be IF Rockstar decides to continue the Van der linde gang story
John would be 11 lol
@@matthewlacey4198 well maybe the main story could be centred around Dutch building his gang and the main story ending would be Dutch gang killing some government official boss or something. Like someone after their gang or some rival enemy.
Then the epilogue would be a timeskip to the blackwater incident where everything started to downfall after that
Hosea with that facial hair looks a little like 1907 Micah
I was thinking that when I saw the thumbnail
more like uncle lol
It's probably the same beard
@@nagger8216 it is they just took Micah beard from the game files and glued it to Hosea’s face it’ll fall off in a few days
Hosea turning in his grave “Compare me to that oily turd again!”
There's also that part at the beginning of Chapter 3 when Dutch has a whole Freudian slip. After he goes fishing with Arthur and Hosea, when they're getting back to camp he says "Well I think I... I mean we... are gonna be ok." He let it slip that he really is just looking out for himself and his own interests.
I took it as him letting a little bit slip about the state of his mind up to that point. And then spinning it as being concerned about the general well being of the gang to help deflect.
I got that dialogue the other night and I could see through the bullshit instantly. Dutch I think is a typical narcissist with bipolar disorder because of how flip floppy his emotions are. One day you’ll come to camp and it’s “Arthur! My boy!” The next is “Dammit we’ve got to stick to the plan we need money!”
You cam notice that even earlier, when you are riding off with Dutch towards adler’s ranch during the first mission Dutch says to Charles: “Get indoors, son. I… We need you strong”
@@eduardoribeiro6734Mary Linton does that too when Arthur brings back her brother she states, “I-we were worried about you.” When referring to her and her father, but in reality she was only talking about herself. It’s a constant dialogue choice, throughout the writing of the game.
I think he does that multiple times throughout the story too
0:17 "Mom, Dad, please stop fighting.."
I always felt it was the pressure from decades of looking over his shoulder as more and more of the world grew hungry for his blood and trying to balance that on top of looking after people he loves who only continue to be cut down, starting with Annabelle. The cracks of his spiritual decay always shine brightest in the game right after a death in the gang. Here in Colter they're still fresh from the loss of 3 members in Blackwater, a state-sized hornets nest kicking their heels and the rest of the clan that did survive is just barely keeping from freezing to death. Increasingly frustrated with the eternal stress leads to him at games end saying "fuck it" and giving up on people and giving in to his hatreds.
It's a nice theory, and I agree! But when he finds a "score" or the O'Driscolls, you notice Dutch slowly turning the grief to greed. And that's what really unmasks him. He's not only lost, but he really is also a bloodlust killer
Yup I agree, he's trailing off into the distance with paranoia. When Arthur revealed to him about the Pinkerton approaching him, offering a deal to him just to give up Dutch's location. He asked Arthur "why didn't you take it?" Arthur just brushes it off making it seem like it was just Dutch's dark humor but when it shows Dutch's face, he looks dead serious. This paranoia of him also made him convinced (with a help from Micah no doubt) that Abigail was poisoning John's mind which culminates in him supposedly being the "rat" that screwed them during the botched San Denis bank heist.
Yeah also micah says it would be easier to run and hide with a smaller group. That why it's easy for him to think everyone against him. Easy for him to feel like there betraying him. Than for him to tell them to go. Dutch is such a complex character even the last thing he dose in the game makes you question and think about it again. Really well made game. Would love one last prequel with dutch and the gang in there prime and see what leads to blackwater hiest and see more layers of dutch. Was he always like it and he hid it because he wanted to be better or was he conning the gang with his smooth talking
And the brain damage the way I see it was the final nail in the coffin for him
That is a very good take, I actually think though that Dutch began to lose it when his wife was killed so hopefully the next red dead can go over the past events
Arthur is like the in between friend who is trying to get the group back together.
you can find dutch's diary that has the speech that he gives in the cabin pre-written.
DUTCH CANONICALLY PRACTICED THAT SOEECH NAAAAH
Arthur: We’ll get back on track.
They did not get back on track.
I wish they would've kept the gang hair growth in the final game. Hosea with beard actually looks pretty good!
It is dope
I just assumed that the player spent a lot of time in chapter 1 that everyones hair grew. because I know Arthur's does. Even when you're not playing. You could log back in after a while, take two steps and Grimshaw will go. "Arthur you're way too dirty."
@@frz3rbRnotaku1 That ain’t hair growth.
*That’s just Grimshaw being Grimshaw.*
@@Dementia_Springtrap Grimshaw has sleeper agents in every hotel. They are the women who help bathe you if you get a Deluxe Bath (which, let's be real, who tf doesn't).
looks like skinny uncle
I don't know why from the beginning, I'd had some doubts about Dutch, the way he constantly reminded everyone of his plan and made others doubt themselves by asking if they had lost faith in him. But because I trusted Arthur, and Arthur trusted Dutch, so I didn't think too much about it. It's like being gaslighted by Dutch himself 😂
We saw what a scumbag he was in rdr1, and heard about them leaving John for dead
Took me so long to finish the story because it was all so familiar to me, I just wanted to stop it, but Arthur kept going along with the plans and my choices didn't matter.
@@shanewells8321I never played rdr1 so it did break my heart
You weren’t gaslighted. You’re not a car.
@GHotSauceAnd1 swing and a miss. Gasligting isn't in reference to cars, it's from an old movie, so old they used gas lamps.
Dutch is an amazingly written character. On paper having a game based on Dutch working his way up to the black water massacre would be cool as shit, but it’d be difficult to pull off.
I'd like to see a game about the early days of the gang out west with john, dutch, arthur, and hosea. I feel like playing as dutch would be a fun concept for anyone who's played the other 2 games cause you'd know how his story ends. The end of the story has to be at the blackwater massacre though because thats the genesis of where the gang starts to unravel.
@@AB-vn2jcthe only issue would be that ending the plot or Epilogue with the gang going off to the Blackwater boat job wouldn't leave much room for free roaming after the story/epilogue, but that would be really cool if they were able to pull it off
@@matthewlacey4198not if it ended before that job somehow
@@AB-vn2jc i would play it but it just sounds so silly. I don’t think it’s worth money or time making it
@@matthewlacey4198maybe they could have a few members that took a different route and survived to also tell the story of the black water massacre who’s to say Dutch wasn’t close to any other members you could play as them and get to know them throughout the story in the final mission we could get the start of dutch being a traitor that the rest of the gang from the story of rdr2 never saw and leaves them behind as Dutch runs off in a hurry not telling the main members of rdr2 what happened to rest of the crew in a hurry they all leave without asking much
I’m on chapter 5 I think approaching chapter 6. This is my first time playing and next I’ll play the first game also for the first time. I’m heartbroken because of the way the group is now and Micah is suddenly Dutch’s best friend. Strangers in the camp, eating camp food like they’re part of the group annoys me too. Dutch has pretty much turned on Arthur, because “it wasn’t the right time to rescue John”. I just witnessed a conversation between John and Dutch talking about this and I am certain Dutch would have let John hang. I got mad when I was talking to Dutch and Micah comes over next to Dutch and folds his arms like he’s protecting Dutch. I read some things accidentally and I know things will get worse. I miss being in Horseshoe overlook when everyone seemed happy and the camp was nice. Is it weird I’m getting emotional about this? I’m sad and angry.
Also I forgot to add Micah laughing with his friends about Arthur dying pissed me off.
@@SallyCat84 Nothing weird about it at all. Chapter 6 is where the world crumbles...
Sad and Angry:
1. Malcontented
2. Smad
what youre feeling is exactly the point of the story. restrospectively, it makes the first RDR even sadder for me now.
Without spoilers for chapter 6 make sure Arthur gets high honour soon. You will understand after the chapter. You will feel good you did that for him :D
Dutch reminds me of those owners on Kitchen Nightmares who think they're always right and can't handle criticism.
He needs the Gordon Ramsey of wild gangs to help him fix his s**te.
I've noticed a lot more concerning behaviour from Dutch early in the game now that I'm on my second play-through. It really was right from the beginning that he had problems.
Same. On my third playthrough. In chapter two in camp he said to Arthur: "I think you will betray me." and it wasn't a joke. I was really shocked hearing that although I had no illusions about Dutch.
@@chrissiesbuchcocktailI always felt a bit uneasy with dutch and his whole loyalty belief, I felt he was going to transcend those very beliefs he preaches. He also slipped up during the boat fishing scene with hosea, arthur and dutch, where he mentioned he wanted to do this for himself not for his gang which only solidified it.
even on the first playthrough, when u don’t know what Dutch is gonna become, there is so much to catch about him being a narcissist. I didn’t knew who Dutch was (I played RDR2 first) and I didn’t found him charming for long, I started to dislike him at the beginning of chapter 2. I would love to see a compilation of every paranoid or narcissistic moment Dutch had way before his mental problems started showing
@MM-ne2cl me personally I started to get iffy about Dutch after the bank job in Saint Denis going into Guarma. That was when he really started to descend into the real person he was and losing hosea like that and the fact he admitted later that he would've preferred John rot in jail. But when you're talking to Javier he says how Dutch killed a girl on the blackwater job so that just makes me believe Dutch was always crazy and selfish but tried to mask it behind his bullshit ideals
He never answers Arthur’s or other gang’s serious questions properly but just gaslights them back. He was never a trustful person from the beginning. He just got worse
He was alright here. Dutch genuinely cared about the gang. He was just never able to admit he was wrong and never accepted a critics. Hosea was a much wiser leader and tactician. That pissed him off. But Dutch never hated him.
Hes a group leader looking after about 20 people who are all like family to him, he's just under a lot stress.
Civilization is slowly consuming him
Did you seriously just sympathise with Dutch?
Rockstar even tells us Dutch has already started losing it with the Blackwater Massacre - he's a manipulative, lying false prophet to his gang
Surely that's why
@@rambo-cambo3581 Yes I did, because it this point in the game he hasn't lost Hosea, gotten the head injury, neither had Micah properly started to manipulate him, which were the three main factors of his downfall. At this point, he was just a good leader who cared for the gang.
@@ryman1933 Yes, it is.
They should've made the male gang members have some kind of stubble or beards to show they were on the run in Colter. Kind of like Chapter V.
They did dummy lol
Dutch has always been crazy. He was just good at hiding it with a "Greater" message
John and Hosea were the only two that knew that dutch had totally lost it
Arthur always says "we're going to be alright" until chapter 4, there he knows that dutch ain't totally right
Pretty much everyone started to see that Dutch has slowly started to change, Hosea knew earlier than anyone.
Arthur already started to have doubts about Dutch since Blackwater massacre, but he chose not to believe it or question it.
Even Uncle
@@trevorphilips9065 In a camp interaction. Shows you how insightful Uncle is.
This is logically how he would have spoken to Hosea if he was still alive in chapter 6
The more and more I play the game the more I realize nothing actually really changes since blackwater it's just that the start of the game puts you in a cold miserable place. You're lead to believe going to warmer weather is a saving grace but eventually that warm weather is just the heat of the law. It always was too. The second train robbery with the oil can? It was bait. Every step they were followed one behind when they thought it was two or three
Dutch has always been crazy. He enjoyed the outlaw lifestyle. Being the leader of a fearful gang, doing whatever he wants. Helping those he likes and punishing those he don't.
Dutch never wanted to settle down. He never wanted tahiti or an other place he fed the gang to keep them around. He wanted what they had already. It was just no longer viable because they could no longer overpower the small townn sherif with organised government gaining control.
You cant go insane if you allways was insane
Another proof against the trolley accident theory
I dont think the trolley accident theory is that the crash alone drove him crazy. Its that a serious head injury was just another factor among many that led Dutch over the edge.
Hes a group leader looking after about 20 people who are all like family to him, he's just under a lot stress and this doesn't prove anything. It's not even a theory, its just fact and heavily implied by R*.
Trolley theory is just desperate Dutch lovers grasping for straws
@@calebmarek facts because even before the first mission, Dutch killed an innocent woman in the black water heist. The money and power he felt was what drove him crazy
@@calebmarek No it’s not, and it’s not a theory, it’s fact. Dutch sustained a head injury, R* even not so subtly hinted at it. Not saying he’s a good guy at all, and it was not the only cause of his downfall, but it was definitely one of the main reasons, if not the main reason.
He started showing signs since he killed that girl in the ferry heist
It's crazy how in chapter 1&2 I loved Dutchs character. Then it's a steady decline into the man we saw in RDR1
Even in RDR1, Dutchs gang is mostly Native men. Just like Eagle flies and his tribe during chapter 6
Tbh he already went crazy the moment he killed the girl at the Blackwater ferry
I read the newspaper in the game and found out Dutch’s gang is called “Dutch’s Boys”.
i thought it was called "The Van der Linde Gang"
also where did you buy the newspaper?
I think the whole story of red dead 2 from start to end is one of redemption for Arthur and documenting from start to finish dutches descent into madness. As opposed to from one point in the story
Thats not him being crazy thats just him being stressed out
truthfully, i think stress is what did him in. think about how many gang members in just this game alone. how many more were there? hom much has dutch lost? PLUS the head injury? stress slowly and painfully killed him.
I just started playing and Dutch is and was always bat shit crazy. I was hanging around camp there other day and Dutch just started going off on me as I was walking by. And then five minutes later he was saying how everything was smiling that day. Dude's cracked.
Lol
i just imagine arthur saying that-
hosea- "dutch seems a little on edge today.."
arthur- "dudes cracked."
In my opinion, Dutch doesn't change that much from the first to the last chapter. I interpret it that way, that Arthur slowly realizes how Dutch really is, and that we see that change through his eyes, since we get to know the story from his view.
After playing again and again, i started to see things this way too...
It's really unfortunate which gang members died during the story, I'm convinced that's why the standoff in Beaver Hollow was so one-sided. I feel like Hosea, Lenny and Sean would've definitely sided with Arthur, John and Susan if they were still around.
There would be no standoff in the first place if Hosea was still alive.
Don't forget about Kieran. He would've sided with Arthur too.
John was there, he sided with Arthur
@@splashnskillz37Reread the original comment
"You see madness is like gravity, all you need is just a little push"
- Joker
"we cant fight gravity"
The ways Rockstar hinted that Dutch was a narcissist from the very beginning is incredible. They even used had Dutch’s tent be the first living camp upgrade to imply that Dutch is self-centered and puts his own needs and desires before others.
Arthur even says «What began happening in Blackwater started happening a long time ago» or something like that
The story is Arthur learning to think for himself and part of that is seeing how his life has been ruled and ruined by Dutch, and trying to make things better with what he has left at that point.
People when finding out Dutch hurting his head on the trolley and he being crazy are not related.
RDR1 players who remembered the mission where Dutch robs the bank in blackwater and kills the woman in cold blood to escape could anticipate that things were already fucked when they heard about Heidi McCourt and what seemingly happened to her on the ferry in chapter 1.
truly a masterpiece how they wrote the story backwards with so many references back and fourth between the games.
That doesn’t show that he’s “lost his mind” or “crazy” he’s just frustrated and scared
Dutch revealed it at the very start by saying to Charles, “Get inside, son! I- *we* need you.”
Even before that "Stay Strong Stay WITH ME"
@@shinrugal What the hell is wrong with either of those
@@chrishilton3626 it shows that he never had the gangs interest at heart and he always wanted to benefit himself
@@AB-vn2jc that’s not true, it’s not that black and white he only mixes words like that twice in the game and you’ve got to remember he’s under a lot of pressure they barely escaped with their lives lost all their money and have about half the Pinkerton detective agency after them
hosea was keeping dutch in line from the start
Dutch had a hatred of authority figures his whole life, starting with his mother. Which is why he left home. But in order to be an authority figure himself, he had to act with control and restraint. I think Arthur and Hosea did a good job of keeping that hatred at bay and keeping Dutch composed. I think Micah was the person who brought that hatred of authority back to Dutch. Micah reignited that "hatred" of order and any type of authority. Chaos, which was Dutch's original aim, came to the surface again. Any pretence he had of nobility and humility just faded. He became the person he always was.
The moment when you, and arthur, really realize dutch is crazy is when he kills bronte.
He's literally under stress taking care of 20 people he isn't crazy yet
For the first time, you said something correct
Yeah, taking care of so many people for years, even teaching some gang members how to read and write, i dont think dutch always have been a bad guy, afterall he was on command for years, maybe with other prequel on rdr3, we could see other side of dutch. A real good side of him. And sorry for my english not my language, trying my best.
@@gabiezin2k302 you are correct about dutch
He set himself up to have full monopoly control. If he'd had been willing to share power/responsibility of decision making with Hosea and Arthur more, he'd have removed some stressors from his shoulders. But he likes control too much, so it'd have never happened, and that's exactly what drove him mad; he 'broke' under the misfortunes he'd engineered for himself.
Dutch did not go crazy, that's his true nature, only he did not try to take over the world.
I genuinely feel for all these characters. John’s escape is epic. Good game in the vein of many other great games.
In 1899, both were clean-shaven.
They’re still there in 1909, full beards & planning escape🤣
In the end what happened is that Dutch actually found himself. The benevolent leader attitude and all that shit is just a mask, and with the world closing in on him he had to make a choice, get caught or let that mask fall for good. And he chose to let the demon out, and become a killer who does whatever it takes to get out alive in the end, which is why he likes Micah so much. The two actually think similarly, the difference is that Dutch hides his thoughts.
Well beeing in these freezing conditions, low on food and very little sleep. idk... I would freak out too.
Dutch was going crazy from the start but he wasn’t losing faith in his original gang like Hosea and Arthur. He was always asking for their inputs and wanting them to help him out. Where I thought things began to change majorly was when dutch hit his head when the train crashed. After that he began to lose all respect and Micah finally was able to dig his way all the way in to Dutch’s head
Head injuries cause increased paranoia and aggression. Bad enough ones completely alter your personality. We are our brains, for the most part. What damages them, damages who we are.
I don't think Dutch went "crazy" or was "evil" I think bro just had traumatic thing after traumatic thing happen to him because of choices or calls he made that endangered not only himself but his gang family. Like there is no doubt Dutch genuinely loves or loved his gang, and because of that he tried to always front as competent to them so they wouldn't worry or be afraid in hard times. However it was exactly because of that, Dutch kept everything to himself and lashed out when people like Hosea or Arthur pointed out the obvious he was trying to push aside.
Like the guy had his long-term girlfriend shot and killed in front of him- and Annabelle wasn't like Molly, Dutch loved her and she rode with the gang for a long time so of course Dutch would be having a bit of a mental episode after that. He's got that toxic mentality (likely learned from his father based on how Dutch talks about him) that he can't share his feelings with other people so it bottles up. After Annabelle's death Dutch wanted revenge so he killed Cain, but he got mad when that didn't fix how he felt and was real messed up then Micah noticed that and started taking advantage of Dutch's unstable emotional state by being a yes-man and feeding Dutch bad ideas resulting in Blackwater. After Blackwater which Dutch was shaken up about, I mean the guy shot a young girl which clearly affected him, he was forced to gather his gang and flee to the mountains which resulted in at least 3 deaths of his family since they never found Mac. The entire time Dutch is trying to ignore that he made a bad call and that the situation was more or less his fault. This of course had a snowball effect and more and more bad calls happened because of Micah's manipulation and Dutch's worsening mental state.
People do not "become more like they truly are," that is something that is fundamentally against psychology. People become "evil" through trauma and situation. That does NOT make the actions okay or justifiable but the mentality that Dutch was always a bad person or always evil is very close-minded.
Just because Rains Fall said his line about his thought's on Dutch does not mean he is right, given his own trauma and situation, it makes sense for him to see things the way he does especially with how he already did not like Dutch because of how Dutch was feeding into Eagle Flies' anger.
There is no sound argument that Dutch did not love the members of his gang, he wouldn't have taught them how to read and offer them safety and home if he didn't, he may have had weird parenting/leadership skills but that is just a realistic human thing- no one is perfect. I mean like Dutch is a much much better person than half the characters in RDR, sure he's egotistical and pretentious but those traits don't make you evil, trauma does.
And of course trauma can also have the opposite effect too shown through Arthur who had the opposite effect after the trauma the gang went through. Arthur had better coping skills (even if they still weren't great) and was able to talk about how he was feeling to other people and reflect on the events in order to decide he wanted to be a better person and help John and the others get out of the situation even at the cost of his life.
Anyway all that said ya'll ever think about how Dutch and Hosea lived together for 20+ years and raised like 5 kids together and that I guess Rockstar thought that was kinda sus and gave Hosea a dead wife to make it less sus??? Hosea was a theater kid and he's kinda fruity I think he and Dutch kissed a few times. Thoughts?
You don't just "become" the kind of man who will shoot a young woman for no good reason, and then try to justify it as being necessary for survival. You can however, become someone who no longer veils those violent and psychotic tendencies because of the immense amount of trauma you've endured and pressure you're under. I don't disagree that Dutch "loved" his gang, it's just that rather than view them as his family, he sees the gang as an extension of himself, the only exception being Hosea and possibly Annabelle. Dutch is a narcissist with radical ideals, not a misunderstood victim of trauma. I also strongly disagree that Rains-Fall is closed minded for saying people only become who they truly are. There is a huge amount of discourse on Nature vs. Nurture and it is absolutely not clear cut enough to call one point of view closed minded, or "fundamentally against psychology", that's ridiculous. The whole concept of self-actualization would disagree with you there. It's a bit like viewing Heisenberg as a sympathetic character because he had a wife and kids he cared about, then saying it was the meth game that made him how he is. Actually, come to think of it, Walter and Dutch would be an interesting comparison for this whole conversation. I do appreciate the thoughtful analysis though, despite how much I disagree, and I would really love to see what you think about my response.
Also you can catch Dutch and Hosea holding hands in camp sometimes those two definitely smooch when Molly isn't looking.
@@E-gag ty for the response!! and i overall agree with you and appreciate the nuance of your view that i personally hadn't considered/heard eps as someone who thinks walter white for example is, and always was, a shithead.
I think i just had/have bias when it comes to dutch as i relate to him a lot and all the "he was evil from the start" people I'd talked with prior would argue in a way that is very black and white, typically only pointing at the rains fall dialogue or like out of context camp convos as proof/simply shutting down any type of further discussion.
(So in other words i was def writing that in a frustrated state w bias kjfhds)
but overall i 100% agree that dutch is a very very self-centered person and have always thought so
I also def recognize my poor wording and cringe takes from last year- i was kinda contradicting myself a bit even lol
But yeah I guess I more see Dutch as not a good or bad person, but rather a person who is capable of both and did both
I think my issue just stemmed more from the concept of type-casting people as inherently evil or good from conception since it devalues discussion and the ability for people to move on/learn from mistakes
I think some people such as Dutch are more susceptible to doing evil things whether based on things like mental illness or poor coping mechanisms
But just the phrasing of the question "did dutch become evil or was he always evil" just bothers me from both standpoints as someone who doesn't believe in people being evil to begin with inherently or otherwise since it strips blame away from systems and other means that allowed for the evil to occur i guess
But yeah Dutch n Hosea are wild, gay old man cowboys
still thinkin bout dutch calling hosea "old girl" .,...
@@straightplonker The game has heavy themes of good people doing bad things and vice versa, and I think Dutch (alongside Arthur of course) is sort of the centerpiece of that theme. He seems to struggle between giving into his "nature" and staying loyal to his adoptive family, right up until he kills Micah. I think that was really the last nail in the coffin for his psyche. His ideals and reason had failed him time and again, and I think it's with that final reminder of his failures that he decides to fully give in to his impulses. If nothing else, he will disrupt the system that wronged him and killed his only real "friend." It's somewhere in those three years of killing and running that he truly loses himself, and becomes the man we see in the first game.
I definitely agree that the black and white view on things is reductive and ignorant, and can understand why you'd sort of lash out at the people spouting Rains Falls line in response. He for sure has a one sided view of Dutch, and heavy bias given what he's doing with his son, but I get the sense that he's seen that kind of man before. Someone so in love with himself and his ideals that he's blind to the evil he does. Up until Micah came around it seems that everyone around Dutch was at least somewhat decent. He didn't surround himself with rapists and cold blooded murderers that would encourage that side of him, and so he may have not seen himself in that light. Micah, being the other side of Dutch's coin, immediately saw through that facade, and smelled some kind of payday being either his bounty or the blackwater money. Dutch liked him, saw him as a pragmatist, let him enable his own dark impulses that he may have been in denial about, and when Arthur shows signs of his sickness, lets him take the place as his right hand, likely telling himself that it's for the good of the gang. As things get more and more desperate, he realizes that he can't have his war against the government AND his family, so he picks the former. He sees the consequences of this when he watches Micah kill Arthur, and realizes he's thrown away the only family he really had for the sake of some pipe dream, and rather than placing the blame solely on himself, he eventually places it on Micah, the man who made him see himself for what he really is, or at least, what he's become. Even Arthur says at one point "what happened in blackwater started happening long ago". All this to say, in that conversation, with the bit of context Arthur gives him, I think it's a very wise question for Rains Fall to ask. Dutch had been given the chance to learn and move on so many times, and still ended up where he was.
I realize I'm rambling, I guess I've just never properly put my thoughts on this into words. I agree that people aren't inherently good or evil, it's your choices that define that, but I don't think Rains was necessarily saying he was born evil. Just that he always had evil in him, whether it was the evil around him that brought it out or he let it out himself is beside the point.
We need a prequel with Dutch and Hosea sneaking around with each other behind Anabelle and Bessie's backs. Brokeback Mountain with con-men in the old west lmao
Dutch went crazy when he brought Micah in the gang
Imo Micah convinced him to be who he truly was. Ruthless and self centered.
Honestly I don't think Dutch was EVER the charismatic idealist people think he was/is. I think he was always a con man who found that faking being the charismatic leader who cares got far better results than being a cruel or otherwise uncaring one. He even says so directly to Bronte before killing him. I think the "crazy moments" are just the mask slipping for a moment, Arthur is unreliable since he's basically been raised by Dutch and is blindly loyal. From Arthur's perspective, Dutch changed. Dutch didn't change, what changed was that his grand plan was falling apart as the lies are harder to string along and the law is catching up with him. He was promising to get moneh to buy land and put their banditry behind them, this was obviously a lie as they could've done this at literally any time. Hell, John barely changes his name and even uses his real one while getting his loan and buying the plot. If Dutch really wanted that life for the gang then they had the money to do that even before the game starts. He's lying, the whole "movement" is a fucking con.
Bloody hell what have you done to my pal Hosea…
He had no plan right from the beginning -_-
HE HAS A PLAN!
@@Damar158 Shoar!
It's pretty obvious dutch already lost his grip on reality in blackwater, then the gang's increasingly worse situation exposed more of who he was.
I always saw it as him always being bad, but the times were different enough where they could easily slip away, but society around them changed while they refused to and it eventually bit them in the ass.
Dutch always goes off on how he cant fight change, he knows this is a losing battle but he just cant give up on it, because then his whole lifes struggle would have been meaningless.
Honestly even with Micah involved it may have sped up the process but even without him the gang would have crumbled
For those of you confused this is probably a mod. I'm guessing I don't remember Hosea having that much of long beard
Yes I don't know how he could have had this dialogue, I've never seen that elsewhere. Do you think it was deleted content that he restored?
Thank you! I fucking hate that theory that Dutch hit his head and suddenly went insane. Dutch's decline was all his fault, not some bump on the head's
Did you like the part where dutch got a head concussion and went crazy?
First time seeing this scene and recently I heard his rant about being a monkey in chapter 2. Both of those random moments throw that theory out the door for me.
I think it was a constellation of things that tipped him over the edge. The concussion is one more thing affecting the judgment of a man who was already cracking up.
He always was crazy, even before the game started. It's because everything started going wrong (the ferry job, gang member deaths) that his facade started cracking, and as things kept getting worse there was no going back.
He is not crazy. He just doesn’t like when someone undermines his authority. We saw it many times. Just remember that dialogue when Arthur “insisted”
i agree, but he's more of an egoist, by that i mean he could have saved Arthur, when we got to the endgame where we had to fight Micah, if he would have sided with Arthur, he would be approving that he did things wrong. he wanted John and Arthur to both die, leaving them behind instead of saving them, in both cases, twice - when Arthur was captured by Colm o'Driscoll and when he was held up by a soldier in the eagle flies mission. John could have been rescued before he got captured by the law, after John got captured, Dutch didn't bother getting him out of prison and in the train heist mission, instead of helping him, he left him behind. We could add that Micah is the reason of Dutch's stupid decisions, getting in Dutch's head making him not think about others. maybe everything would have gone different if Arthur left Micah behind in Strawberry jail.
to be fair this is shortly after suffering a huge loss. Forced into hiding in the freezing cold, loosing thousands of dollars, and loosing 3 members of the gang.. like yea he's definitely not going to be himself, he's had no time to recover
When da hell Hosea got beard in chap 1, I played the game from the beginning so many times I have never realized about that, I mean I'm in shock
mods
He was always a narcissist. People acting like the man developed a whole personality disorder in a chapter of a video game 😑
Please I need help trying to find this conversation I have tried many times but never get this hidden dialogue. Thank you for your help
The fact that we're all STILL digging up dialogue and debating evidence and characterization astounds me. The sheer density of this masterpiece of entertainment, of storytelling.
Arthur wonders aloud to himself and others multiple times whether Dutch has actually changed, or is just finally letting his true colors seep through.
We're all still wondering as well, and putting forth ideas and theories for YEARS. Is him having his speech in the opening written down a sign of intentional, planned manipulation on his part, or him wanting to commemorate his people without flaw? Does he sustain personality-altering brain damage on the trolley station robbery, or is being so blatantly set up by a big city crime lord the straw that breaks the camel's back of Dutch's ego, either option being the wellspring from which all future sins will flow?
Had Dutch abandoned his ideals as the noose of law and civilization tightens around him, or has he simply let the set-dressing of those ideals fall by the wayside?
I personally think it was the Saint Denis bank job that truly broke down whatever idealism yet remained in Dutch. Such obvious evidence of betrayal from one of his own, the failure of another big score, and the deaths of his closest, oldest friend and youngest, ablest protege in Hosea and Lenny. One consistency of Dutch throughout is that he doesn't respond well to things not going according to plan, and short of the whole gang being taken or killed, which they nearly are, everything that could go wrong does go wrong with the Saint Denis bank job. Every fear and doubt and anger of his is manifested in the failure of that robbery.
From that failed score onwards, Dutch becomes more and more openly his worst self within his old, soon-to-be-abandoned paradigm of noble warrior poet outlaw.
Openly admitting to Arthur that he is simply riling up the Natives to fight an unwinnable battle simply so they will have more cover for another few thefts; being willing to leave John to potential execution in prison simply because rescuing him is tactically inconvenient. Dutch begins becoming the man who will in around a decade shoot a hostage in her head for absolutely no reason, and admit he wants to kill John and an mutual acquaintance purely for the sport of it.
But then, all of this really begins because Dutch unnecessarily shot a woman in her head on the Blackwater ferry as the job fell apart.
Who can say? That none of us truly can is a testament to the quality of the writing and characterization of RDR 1 and 2.
This is often overlooked, but Dutch's insanity might've started just after Colm O'Driscoll killed his girlfriend Annabelle in retaliation for his brother. The events of RDR2 and prior, and also the presence of Micah, only helped fueling this insanity.
The decline of the gang and Dutch morality has started after Blackwater massacre basically.
But it's also implied that Dutch has shown his true colors in the end, a man with no morals whatsoever ready to sacrifice everyone for his own interest.
Hosea is kind of like Arthur.
He’s dying due to an illness.
And is desperately trying to get Dutch to see reason
I remember the lines "Stay strong, stay with ME!" Ringing in my ears for the first ten minutes of my playthrough
When we get a 3rd Red Dead, I want it to be a prequel of the prequel. All the times leading up to the Blackwater Job.
People keep suggesting this idea and still fail to realize that it would make no sense
His whole god damn premise is insane. Moral murders and thieves who do it for the money? Insane and they literally never act moral as a group.
Dutch was always a narcissist, a con man and a manipulator. He's a cult like figure who only valued those who did not question him. I don't think there is one specific moment where he begins to change. This becomes pretty evident as the game goes on. And I believe Arthur himself notes this a few times as well. It's why Dutch would ultimately side with Micah over his "son" or "brother" Arthur.
The real change is Arthur seeing Dutch for who he is.
@@haydentravis3348
That's true. Well said.
Rdr3 next has to be about the gang in their prime, and end with blackwater, and we play as Davey or something
Dutch: Lost people in a botched robbery. Travelling in the freezing mountains for days. Just barely found shelter and is exausted.
Yall: He's crazy from the start!
He was always "crazy". It's hinted at in dialogue throughout the entire game especially in chapter 6. Dutch is a narcissist. Narcissistic leaders can be charming, charismatic and well liked as long as things go as they want and when they can control people. Dutch first lost control of his plans and then of his gang when they started "doubting" him. He saw it as offensive and a threat because that is what narcissists do they see all criticism as a threat or as an insult, Dutch just possessed the people skills and charisma to hide his rage (common among communal narcissists) , but it became obvious in the end when he was under pressure that everything was a facade. The writing in this game is truly remarkable
Lmao tried to sneak that Hosea beard mod by us
Regardless, I don't think we ever get to see the more high-honor Dutch ever in the game. That was likely up to before Micah joined and before the gang was ever on the run from anything. I also presume that before blackwater, heists and robberies always went smooth and there weren't casualties of innocents, including lawmen. That's why I think a rdr game set before 2 wouldn't be easy to turn into a game with a lot of action-packed shooting besides through rival outlaws, the gang probably wasn't extreme in violence and were more like theives that stayed low profile.
I saw this in my first play though and new that it started as soon as they escaped from black water
How do you change other characters appearance like that? What mod?
its the first mission, not a mod
It’s clearly modded Hosea never has facial hair or very little
You can tell the game is trying to portray that Dutch’s psychosis and insanity has been a long time coming for the gang, We catch them as their entire livelihood and world collapsing, With the woman on the Blackwater ferry being a determined slash on Dutch’s alleged character although RDR2 is the earliest we see of the character’s life.
the "guh!" hes such a drama queen so sassy
they argue like an old married couple.
When RDR 2 started, the gang was already in its downfall. Lenny and Arthur talk about this in one of the mission, something like "since jenny and mac died in blackwater its like our luck turned sour". That means, we might get to see a more graphically and mechanically advanced RDR set further in the past, in the actual glory days of the gang, ending in the blackwater massacre maybe? We'll see. Rockstar aint what it used to be unfortunately.
I think what happens is that Dutch just cracks under pressure.
This gives me beaver hallow vibes
anyone who played rdr1 knows dutch was always insane, his MO was just to manipulate the gang for his ends, he just wanted to fight, bro was genuinely psychotic.
i hope we get a red dead 3 to see how the group came together and see what happened in blackwater
Dutch wanted them to basically go live a farmer life somewhere. But went crazier and crazier and just wanted to be a rebellious outlaw legend. Makes the most sense.
IMO Dutch was always ''crazy'' but Hosea and Arthur was able to hold that side of him back. Then Micah came in started to put thing into his ears. The big change came at the Ferry job in Blackwater where neither Hosea or Arthur where present but Micah was, so instead of being held back Dutch's mad tendencies where instead being encouraged. Everything just went downhill after that.
I think Dutch had some "Messiah syndrome" let's call it like that. He wanted to be a leader that everyone will listen to, follow his orders without doubts and just be with him forever. We can see how nervous he becomes in 4th chapter already when Arthur, Hosea and John doubt his plans. He couldn't accept that his plans may fail, he expected everyone to believe in him and his plans. When more and more gang members die, especially Hosea who more or less kept him sane, he went nuts completely. The gang starts to lose their faith in Dutch and it makes him more and more crazy. At the end of 6th chapter, he just didn't seem to care anymore because he knew that he's no longer perceived as the leader or messiah who will lead his people to their promised land. Either his people were with him until the end or against him.
Now Im curious now on what happened in black water and the years before that. RDR 3 please be out before WW3
Dutch refused to listen to any gang member opinion but when he did listen, it was to Micah which made the camp situation way worse
It was clear that Dutch was trying to cash out in Blackwater, and didn't care what happened to the gang.