Bananadog5b The Saint Denis Bank Robbery was probably a bank version of The Blackwater Massacre. The heist went horribly wrong, AND they lost all the money. I’m surprised that didn’t become The Saint Denis Massacre. You would honestly expect that after that heist, Lemoyne and Roanoke Ridge would be under Wanted: Dead Or Alive lockdown like Blackwater and New Austin.
I know right? Bill even blurts out "this is worse than Blackwater!" during the gunfight and the Saint Denis bank robbery is one of the biggest events to happen in the whole game yet it never gets mentioned once in RDR? If RDR ever gets remastered, they'll definitely need to include additional context and references to tie-in better with RDR2.
Yeah I noticed that aswell and also saint denis’ police department and the Pinkerton is a much bigger force then black waters police department and also just sneaking into Blackwater or shooting the place up wouldn’t have been as hard as it is made out to be since they could survive much worse then that in saint denis and other parts of lemoyne
sean543213 i hear EVERYONE SAYING THIS. Ffs Bill says the SITUATION they were in was worse. In blackwater they could shoot down the street but in Saint denis they were trapped. But he doesn’t mean the massacre was worse
Wasn't the bank robbery in valentine a big score? They got around 30 thousand dollars from that bank and ik everyone got their share but cut that in half and it's still a shit ton of money, back then how could 15 thousand dollars not get you to Tahiti or Australia or especially the west
They shouldn't have instantly robbed Leviticus Cornwalls train after they just got out of that debacle. The blackwater massacre is questionable but I think Milton told the truth about Micah being a rat after guarma.
@@adamporter3402 Not to mention the whole trolley station debacle. Dutch would've had less chance of being bitten by a snake if he shoved it up his ass than having that bank heist go to shit.
what you do while free roam is not story related, so it doesn't count. The character Arthur is what you see during the cutscenes and dialogues, outside that its you who is doing the bad stuff, not Arthur.
When you go to Micah's camp near Strawberry you see a wanted poster of Dutch. I feel like he had that for sinister purposes. Him being a rat from the start is very likely. Especially with him initially trying to win Arthur over to his side telling Arthur he should stick with him, "there's a bigger picture in all this" and Milton initially approaching Arthur in a non-hostile manner trying to persuade him to take a deal.
I think Micah was a rat from the beginning. When you go to rob the bank in St. Denis Micah is wearing a white suit while the rest of the gang is in black. Micah wanted to stand out to the Pinkerton agents to avoid being shot.
that was his thinking but when they return from the island and pinkertons attack them in the cabin with the machine gun l dont think they wanted any of them left alive even him
Fun fact: after you free Micah from strawberry, go visit the temporary camp Micah was staying at before joining the gang, you'll find a newspaper clip and a bounty poster for Dutch. .... Suggesting he was planning on betraying all along.
The only time I got pissed on the playthrough of the game Arthur's honor passed from max to minimum. That time I think I could have taken down the fort that's at the north
Before RDR2 came out, I was sure we would get closure on what happend in Blackwater. 1 year later and details are still ambiguous. Call me crazy but a prequel to RDR2 isnt as crazy as it sounds. Imagine the story going back in time rather than forward. Hell, imagine playing as Davey or Mac and then playing as Arthur in the epilogue.
AbsoluteMadDog™ it would be amazing to play the game from when the gang began all the way to the blackwater massacre. Getting closure on the massacre would be the perfect end to the series of Red Dead Redemption
@@Mephilis78 Yeah but that's really the player's choice. Story-wise Arthur would probably go to one mission after the other without wasting any time. He could be gone a reasonable amount of times for a reasonable time period doing things that benefit the gang as well such as hunting or robbing stagecoaches to bring camp money.
It’s wild; oh my first two play throughs I didn’t really use the journal on purpose. It wasn’t until my third play through that I realized it was a treasure trove of information regarding Arthur’s real feelings and perception of people and events that took place over 6 chapters. I started reading through it and couldn’t stop.
That would make a shit load of sense, though if the massacre was that big I don't understand why the cemetery is that small, Gavin would probably a name on a stone. Also feel bad that they got rid of the funny text like in Odd Fellow's Rest, would've loved something similar like "Freak's Rest" somewhere in Roanoke Ridge as a little nod to the first game.
City was locked down with Pinkertons regulating the whole area. Plus early on she couldn't be trusted by anyone in the gang to get the money let alone mentally fit to do so after losing her husband.
She couldn't even handle Pinkertons when she gave Arthur the sniper rifle in chapter six. If Arthur had went or another senior (maybe junior) gun, they might stand a chance.
@@lowlylad3457 yh but it gives so mutch more life to the journal and also it gives us more info about john, hes a man whos killed hunreds of people but cant swim or draw for shit XD
Clearly Micah was a double agent for the Pinkertons. Explains how they found Arthur while he was fishing with young Jack. I can’t think of another explanation.
I could see that. It could low key be why the gang was targeting Cornwall’s assets. Pinks wanted to stay on the Cornwall contact for as long as they could. Micah was probably a road agent.
It's possible to do that mission before Micah returns back to camp. After you break him out from Strawberry, he lives on his own for a good while, planning the stage coach job.
I killed gavin got tired of him appearing everywhere looking for his mate he should try looking at his name tag that will tell him where his friend is lol
You ever notice that while micah is in jail arthur lenny bill and karen pull the bank robbery in valentine without getting stopped like they do when micah is around
@@whitenoize3697 well he is stoll in strabarry far away from camp because let's be honest me at least don't rob the stage coach whith him tell no more story missions pop up so he wasn't there for it to go rong
This only thing I know for certain about what happened at Blackwater is: 1. Dutch at one point said, "We need money!" 2. Dutch at one point said, "Tahiti" Everything else remains a mystery
The irony, Dutch had some of the money from the Ferry. You discover this if you return to the cave with the key. So Dutch not only made his gang pay the cost of his camp and support, he likely was going to level them in time anyways. He had been lying to Arthur and much of the gang all through RDR2.
@@StacieMMeier I don't remember where I saw it but it's stated or implied that the land out west the Gang was originally going to purchase before the Blackwater Job was only going to cost around $2,000. By the time the Gang is hiding at Clemen's Point or even Shady Belle, they have multiple Magnitudes of that. Off the top of my head from when I last played, I think they had over $10,000 in savings by that point, never mind whatever else Dutch had personally squirreled away and what people were putting into the camp funds box. Dutch never planned to settle down or retire, and he acknowledged as much before he died in RDR1. He was just a greedy, violent man stringing along the people who trusted him.
Literally. I am convinced Dutch was nothing more than a fraud after reading that part in Arthur's journal about Dutch deciding not to buy some good land, and being confused as to why (clearly Dutch was being vague). He finally got the chance to settle and live a life on the outskirts of civilised society, and he doesn't take it...Because doing so would require Dutch to humble himself, and stop shooting people, stop all the grand speeches, stop the extravagant robberies and the generally thrilling life of an outlaw.
Oh, there's other subtle hints. You may have noticed that in the Ledger, Dutch doesn't allow anyone else's living conditions to be upgraded until his are, and even labels his tent upgrade as "First Things First," implying that you're meant to attend his needs before anyone else's. This is what tipped me off initially to Dutch's questionable leadership, even way back in chapter 2. And furthermore, "Gang Savings" Cuts of mission profits? Many players notice that those don't go into the actual gang's savings (the contribution box) but rather seem to disappear, despite being 50% of the score from every mission. You can either mark that off as a game mechanic and take it in stride, or you can deduce that the money has to be going *somewhere* and Dutch is the one who'd be in charge of where that is. So why is he not willing to spend the gang's "emergency" money to help the gang during RDR2, when the gang is in a constant state of emergency? You could also note that the only character who dresses better than Dutch in the entire gang is Trelawney, who mostly runs solo and soft-work jobs. Even Strauss dresses just a bit rattier than Dutch, and he's the banker. Dutch is consistently wearing a fancy suit (with or without coat) that is well-embroidered. This style is unique to him and it screams "I am important. I am rich. I am special." Not the best trait to have in a leader.
Fun fact: The Pinkertons were a REAL private security company and, I believe, was accurately portrayed in RDR2. Rockstar clearly got inspiration from U.S. history with Cornelius Vanderbilt, and how they incorporated the history of that agency to their advantage was impressive. Funny enough, the Pinkerton Detective Agency still exists today (albeit under a different name and on a much more limited scale since the rise of the FBI).
Also note that when Sean dies, Micah is overly exaggerating the phrase “They shot me!” almost as if he were surprised. This leads me to believe he might have been involved with that negotiation “going south” too.
Shadowdog I have realized this, thanks. But a point I’ve been meaning to add to this comment (which is very obvious) is that Micah was the only one wearing a bright suit during the Saint Denis bank robbery, therefore leading on more of a hint to him being a rat and showing who he was so he wouldn’t be killed in the crossfire.
@@johnmarston3434 That's very possible, I always figured the gangs activity throughout Saint Dennis is what gave them away though. The trolley cart shootout and shootout at Bronts's mansion screamed the gang.
@@johnmarston3434 Why wouldn't Milton tell Arthur he was being screwed all along then? He thought he had Arthur dead to rights and it would be more angering if Micah was fucking them the whole time and not just after Guarma
i abdolutely love the intentional ambiguity of the Blackwater Massacre so much. It 100% reminds me of the set up bank heist from right before Resevoir Dogs. Conficting accounts and tensions between characters about the events off screen in both RDR2 and Resevoir Dogs leaves a constant looming, almost scary presence over the rest of the stories.
I believe RDR 3 will be the John Dillinger days with Jack Marston becoming a bounty hunter dealing with the birth of extreme technology such as cars semi automatic pistols and such! Jack being a bounty hunter makes it so his honor can go either way! Then we will work are way into the mob days but unlike GTA it will be all about the mobs!
I think it would be cool to play as van and the end of the game you do and fail in blackwater and instead of the player physically dying you get to see van start to mentally die becoming unplayable as he starts losing control over rational thought. (Rdr2 dlc would probibly work better tho)
What's also interesting is that Mac is the only gang member we see nothing of. Davey, we see him in the flesh, albeit nearly dead. Even Jenny was drawn in Arthur's journal. The way the gang talks about Mac as well...apparently he was something special.
I’ve always had a feeling there’s no way the RDR story DOESN’T end with us having a play through of the Blackwater massacre in some way shape or form. They wouldn’t do that to us RIGHT?!
Caleb Messinger you probably found out already but you need to find and buy newspapers for certain cheat codes and different newspapers are available later in missions and in later chapters
We’re doing a sequel. We’re back by unpopular demand. Come on every body load ya rifles! We’re doing a sequel and everybody knows that the sequels never quite as good
I’m pretty sure Micah would’ve just found him some place else, if the whole thing truly was a set up then Micah and the Pinkerton were probably tracking them and planning to get an in with Dutch in any number of ways
@@jaydhills5966 go on to progress then weapons then get all the kills from your weapons have with your stats 😂😂last time I checked I had 1,000 on my sidearm alone
37 people died: my killing spree of the Saint Denis graveyard where i killed over 100 policemen funneling through the graveyard all dying via pump shotgun and evans repeater
The fact that he killed the girl in Blackwater proves that Dutch's problem is his ego, which falls apart under pressure. That's why he spends most of the game telling himself that everything will be fine and trying to convince everyone of it, he can't deal with things not going the exact way he wants. That, along with no Hosea to keep him in check is what lead to the gang's downfall. After Guarma (which was a hell hole that killed any fantasies about running off to any tropical island since it was even worse than the country they escaped from), when things are getting out of hand, him being more erratic and violent is just him lashing out at the world for not letting him have his way, and that's what leads to the Dutch we see in RDR1, who has no aim beyond causing chaos everywhere, perhaps as a form of revenge against the world, but mostly against the USA and the government, since they killed the only way of life he knew, which he only accepts at the very end. I'd also like to point out that the period known as "the Wild West" is agreed to be a 30 year long period between 1865 and 1895. The events of RDR2 happen in 1899 (not counting the epilogue, which happens in 1907) Even at the beginning of the game their era was already over and government agencies had already been sweeping the country clean, very few of them were left, it was just a matter of time before the times catched up to them.
@@davidstinger1134 In the game they talked about people changing or people becoming more of what they really are. After Hosea died, as you wrote, there were nobody to keep Dutch from becoming more of what he really are.
Hear me out. Rdr3, your Mac callendar, they’ve opened up another map past the grizzlies just as big as the 2nd, you start there, making your way down towards Blackwater, seeing the journey of the gang along the way, young Arthur etc. with the last mission being the Blackwater massacre. Finally giving us closure to all our unanswered questions so far.
@@nickv1212 It doesn't have to be Arthur, or even one of the gang members. I think it would be cool to get the perspective of an agent, or even someone from a rival gang.
@@lb3720 So play as the Pinkerton/gang member that killed Mac? Last time we had that in a game, the internet couldn't handle it. But I'm down. Prepare for a lot of compilations of all the ways to commit suicide as this MC killer, though, especially if they're who you play as throughout the epilogue.
@@nickv1212 It doesn't have to be Mac's killer, because if that's the case would have to play as Agent Milton. I just think If we had another RDR game revolving around the same characters, I would want a different perspective where the Van der Linde gang are the antagonist, even if it's just for the epilogue.
I second this. During my first playthrough of this game I didn’t read much of Arthur’s journal but the second time I did. If you read it it adds a whole lot of context to the game
Cynical I didn’t say it explained the Blackwater incident bro but I guess I shouldn’t have said it adds context but still would recommend everyone to read it because it’s one of the most overlooked parts of the game at least I overlooked it during my initial playthrough & I’m sure I’m not the only person to kinda rush thru the game initially. My first time playing it I pretty much only spammed the storyline & didn’t do too many side quests & that was a mistake. I’m playing it again now for the 4th time & can’t believe how much stuff I’ve missed in this game
I'm gonna be honest I don't remember that scene at all. Was that at the horseshoe camp? The only encounter with Pinkertons i remember in that chapter was when I took Jack fishing
I find it heartbreaking when Javier said “Dutch killed a girl, in a bad way, but I was a bad situation” he doesn’t say that Dutch’s choice was a horrible choice, he immediately trys to defend Dutch as soon as he says that, he really trusted him
Heidi McCourt. I remember when in RDR1 during the Stranger side quest he mentions "Do you remember Heidi McCourt's face? She was a girl Dutch Van Der Linde shot on the ferry raid way back, the same day you got shot. Pretty girl, until her face was plastered over the wall and her eyes were hanging by the threat of a tendon"
@@PolishEddie92 it's amazing how people just melt over really basic writing. Lol maybe it's because they've been flooded with garbage tv and movies for over 10 years, and it makes this look like some kind of masterpiece.
I feel like Strawberry, when saving Micah, was more of a massacre than Blackwater, but if not, then it’s hard to imagine just how deadly the fighting was in Blackwater.
Dutch wasn't always insane. I feel as if the stress was getting to him at first, then after the tram incident in Saint Denis he went completely mad. The real reason for all this though, is that Dutch never wanted the gang to stop being Outlaws. The gang could have very easily just gone more Westward to places like Armadillo or Tumbleweed, but ultimately Dutch created this illusion of grandeur that made everyone think there was a way out. So he lead everyone on to do more outlaw-like things until finally what happened happened.
Yeh I think that's basically it. Part of Dutch surely was idealistic, believing in the values of communal outlaw life, but part of it was always also a hatred of civilisation and its oppressive power, and he defined his life as a fight against that. So when the screw finally begins to turn on him and his gang, his idealism starts to falter and the hate takes over, and he becomes motivated more by taking revenge on those who brought his way of life to an end (Cornwall, Bronte, the old plantation families), and then gradually his hate extends to anyone who isn't completely loyal to the survival of his outlaw gang, which eventually includes Arthur. Arthur gradually accepts that the outlaw life is over, and takes steps to save as many lives as possible from its downfall. But Dutch could never let it go, so when Arthur acts in a way that undermines the gang's survival, even if it saves more lives, it really appears to Dutch as a betrayal of who they are. That's the only way I can make sense of how Dutch puts so much trust in Micah as well -- Micah is full of hate and is basically the farthest from civilisation of any member of the gang - Dutch is attracted to him because he knows deep down that Micah is the kind of man he is turning into (or the kind of man he really is, depending on your point of view).
I think armadillo & tumbleweed wouldn't be the best choices for the gang lol. Armadillo still got that corella virus curse, & tumbleweed has that lunatic sheriff chief in their town
Also, when he tells Cornwall "I tell you what, you give me 10 thousands dollars and this boat, and I'll let you live" Cornall: "I'll do no such thing" Then Dutch responds "You sure? Good, I prefer it this way" and shoots Cornwall. He enjoyed that, the same way he enjoyed killing Bronte. Dutch didn't only have a problem with authority, he hated men more powerful than him, because they had what he didn't, which was power, money and freedom altogether. Dutch could have had power and money, but he was never going to live free, and that was what he was desperately seeking for, and he knew deep down that dream was over. That's what drove him mad. But he didn't want to admit it, because admiting it would mean he failed, which would also mean everyone who died, died in vain. And that to a narcissist is absolutely impossible to accept, because that would mean no one would be able to follow him anymore which would mean everyone around him would see him as a failure, and not a leader. That's why Dutch kept "trying", not because his dream would ever come true, but because he'd rather die trying, than living with the realisation that he failed. "We can't fight change, we can't fight nature, we can't fight gravity, all my life, all I ever did was fight" When Dutch said this with Arthur on that cliff, that was HIM finally admiting his failure, he already knew the idea was over right THERE, him saying it again in 1911 confirms their dream had died 12 years ago. Do you guys ever think back to why Dutch left the Blackwater money after he killed Micah? It wasn't a way of making up for what he did to Arthur and John, it was because it wouldn't have made any difference, the dream was already over a long time ago. Dutch then manipulated the indians again so that he could take revenge on the city that ruined it all, Blackwater, and it was exactly after he killed Heidi McCourt. I'm sorry for the long comment, but I find Dutch's charakter fascinating.
He also suffered a head injury on the trolley, you can hear him muttering my head hurts and I don’t feel so good for a while after the mission. Probably accelerated the madness
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@@jimbo5107 Playing as Dutch in RDR 3 could be pretty interresting, IMO. Really seeing the whole story behind the rise and the downfall of "The man with a plan" could kick ass.
Me with a maxed out gold volcanic pistol, maxed out gold schoefield revolver,maxed out gold carbine repeater and maxed out gold bolt action rifle:you are dead
And not just the voice, all his maneirisms and expressions since it was mostly mocap/performance capture, as soon as Micah appear on screen you want to fill him with bullets, fantastic work from Peter Bloomquist
It's interesting how how one line of cut dialogue can change a character from "Ruthless lawman hellbent on destroying gang" to "Man seeking revenge for murdered mother"
For anybody still wanting to get an idea of what it looked like, if you listen very closely during the Saint Denis bank robbery when the shooting starts, you can hear Bill comment how "this is WORSE than blackwater"
The Heidi murder was an early warning that Dutch had a tendency to do psychopathic things when on scores, if he thought nobody would survive to remember it. I think it was a lifting of the mask. We saw it again when John hinted that "there was a moment there where Dutch could have done something" to help, or when he abandoned Arthur in the oil fields.
Micah definitely had been planning from the very beginning. After all when you find him on the mountain at the end of the game he states “I have the money from blackwater” meaning he knew where it was, he was clearly okay to go back there without troubles being involved too (because he’s a good employee to Milton)
That literally makes no sense. The one bag of money Arthur picks up if you go back for it after the army pay train robbery is almost $43K. They took many bags of money, they had no reason to go back to blackwater lol. Bell was just talking shit like he liked to do. I doubt he was more than a "little birdy" to the pinkertons. The last few months of the Van der linde gang were very noisy, I doubt they actually needed his help.
He asks Dutch the whole game to go there, he even offers himself going alone for it I believe, Dutch just needs to say yes, which he doesn't. He was obssesed with that money, talks about it all the time, even before they go rob the bank in Saint Denis. And he would go there even if it meant there would be super high risk for that money, which is shown in Strawberry after you break him out, he goes to shoot the whole town instead of fleeing, because he wanted his weapon. If he is okay to shoot the whole town for one gun, he surely is brave enough to go to the hell and back for the big money. So there is no surprise he went to get it after the gang fell apart. If Dutch would say yes to him tho... well it would be interesting to see what would happen.
I think rdr3 would be interesting if it showed Arthur's early days with Dutch and Hosea or even events leading up to Blackwater. Maybe having it end in Blackwater just before the heist to keep the exact details a mystery.
@@IdleDrifter I disagree, not only because I like getting answers to those questions, but also because the same thing could've been said about the Van Der Linde gang when only RDR1 was out. We only knew about them from what John, Bill, Havier, and Dutch said about them. Very similar to the mystery of the blackwater heist. But, RDR2 went back in time and gave us answers and broke that mystery. RDR3 (when it releases in 2052 lol) could do the same thing and end with the Blackwater heist, or something of that sort. I understand liking the mystery element of it, but I personally think not knowing what happened there weakened the story. Seeing Dutch's first moments of diving into insanity would've been great. I think the main reason they didn't is bc it would've painted Dutch as a villain too early on if executed incorrectly. But even then, I think they could've just had him show immediate remorse for what he did. They are outlaws after all. I wanna see the events unfold.
I’ve always wondered how cool it would have been, all the gang members, save Hosea and Arthur, on a boat, shooting at police and Pinkertons from all around.
I loved the idea that they genuinely helped the poor when they first became a gang, shows that Arthur has always been a good man hidden beneath it all!
Parallel Dutch kept putting the gang into bad situations where they should’ve just laid low but instead Dutch always made it a point to mess with whoever had the power in that area
It's like Rains Fall said "you can't change anyone, they only become more of what they are". Dutch was always a opportunist who used people, yea he had morals but only because Hosea had morals, he was only as good as the man next to him. As all the good members slowly died out his true sinister side started molding, he was always like that. I don't understand why people can't see that either.
Casually murdering more officer then there are people in the town, robbing trains for 50 bucks and murdering 23 officers and guards, casually robbing anyone I see for a couple shekels
Its crazy to think that John didn't have those scars before the games story when they was in Blackwater I always wondered what he looked like without the scars.
There's still one question left, how did someone as skilled as Charles Smith burn his hands during the heist? Rockstar clearly leaving this thread open, did Charles try to redirect Dutch's gun as he shot Heidi McCourt? The gun discharges, causing the barrel to heat up and burn his hand.
@@jesusbruh9103 What does it have to do being back then? They are using blackpowder which I have heard might heat up firearms faster than smokeless powder. But they are using 6 shot revolvers. They dont have the firerate of a modern handgun with 15+ shot magasines that can be reloaded in 2 secs. They have to load each cartridge manually. I just dont see a revolver like that being heated enough to cause a serious burn by pushing it away
Probably wasn't anything like that. Charles says it was a stupid mistake, he didn't know what happened on the riverboat any more than Arthur did, meaning he wasn't present, and if he tried to do that there'd be wayyyyy more animosity between Dutch and Charles. Dutch is not the kind of man that lets someone get away with showing him up, just look at Bronte or Braithwaite. He probably just burnt it by mistake while packing up camp in a hurry to flee Blackwater
It's my theory that Micah was a rat and saboteur from the beginning, but wasn't necessarily working for Pinkertons until the end of the game. I think he was a plant from the O'Driscolls to ruin Dutch. He seems to have some suspicious connections to O'Driscolls, which he goes to great lengths to obscure (like killing most of Strawberry) and in "blessed are the peace-makers" it seemed like he was totally part of the plan to set up the trap. His manners, attitude and expectations also seem pretty in-line with how the O'Driscoll's operate. I also think he betrayed Colm to the Pinkertons when he got picked up after Grauma, as Colm is captured shortly afterwards.
It's refreshing to see someone also think that Micah was a rat from the beginning as well. I think he snitched on the gang regarding the Blackwater heist. He might or might not have necessarily talked to the cops, but thinking about how the serial killer was writing letters go the newspapers, he could have done something similar but to the cops. I think he wanted the whole gang killed (at least the big players in the heist) and gotten away with the money himself. Too many hints at Micah screwing over the gang ever since he joined up...BBz
I really hope rdr3 gets made and it could start by Arthur being on the streets and getting recruited by the gang. And see all the gang members get recruited and it end right before. Or after the massacre I really think it would be good
If it's anything like the other games you'll start off as a different character. Likely Mac as he seems to be the only character that would know the gang and make it to the end of the massacre. Then in the epilogue after Mac's (IE: Arthur/John) death you would play as Arthur. (John/Jack.)
This is probably one of the best videos I've ever watched. I had chills the whole time. RDR2 is my favorite game and even I hadn't thought of half of the things you talked about. Like wow, I'm blown away. Amazing video!
The unraveling of Dutch would be so interesting. I completely fell in love with Arthur. I'd love to see more of him. Maybe he didn't really die? Maybe ....*cries*
Play RDR1. Dutch falls off a mountain to avoid capture by the B.O.I. There’s no way he survived falling off that mountain. He even has a makeshift grave at the bottom which you can only see from the top of Cochinay from the end of the cavern. Cochinay may not look like much in RDR2, but it’s a whole freaking snow-covered fortress in RDR1.
@@jaywilliams4770 That's why there's DLC to tie it up, it shouldn't have to be a mystery since it seems so interesting and it's how Dutch firstly lost his mind.
The fact that if it is true that Micah urged Dutch to shoot Heidi shows what Rockstar excelled at with Dutch, he is the same person at the beginning of the game that he is at the end, he just hides it well, but it gets harder for him as the game progresses
Yes, it was the strange man who was seen in Blackwater before the massacre. Many theories confirm that the Strange Man is the Grim Reaper, so wherever he is, death will follow. In the third part of the “I know You” mission, he is speaking with John at the place which will be his, Abigail’s and Uncle’s graves. John shoots the strange man 3 times, the 4th bullet getting jammed. The three fired bullets represent John, Abigail and Uncle dying, the 4th one jamming is Jack being spared.
@@eldante616 Maybe The Strange Man played some part in the massacre. He probably are the one that set the gang up. My other theories is that Heidi McCourt is maybe part of the gang for a little while. But she set them up on the Ferry or Dutch thought she set them up which lead to Dutch killing her
no, he was literally talking about Trelawny. saying he’d heard a man described, but not mentioned by name, and to him it sounded like Trelawny, who the gang hadn’t heard from for months at he time (but he shows up again soon enough with information on where and by whom Sean is being kept, suggesting he wasn’t far from the gang and was possibly even watching them from a distance). it’s not like somebody literally said something about “a man similar to Trelawny”, Arthur decided on his own based on the description that it sounded like Trelawny. the Strange Man is unlike Trelawny in every way other than attire. their mannerisms and behavior are nothing alike, the Strange Man being some sort of higher being, perhaps a god or the grim reaper, and Trelawny being an elegant and eccentric conman and magician. unless they were only talking about appearance, it would be almost impossible to mistake one for the other. and Arthur said he heard talk of a man who sounded like Trelawny, not looked like him, leading me to believe it was a description of his actions and mannerisms and such, not his appearance. it was basically just him saying “i’ve heard Trelawny might be in the area”.
"We missed you. That's what happened." The direct implication that Arthur is the moral backbone of the gang is great and brought up time and time again in the game. He might be a robbing, killing, train-hijacking murder hobo on the run from the law - but he's not some bastard who gets off on the chaos. He is written so well that you can emphasize with his moral decisions. Even in the side quests where (spoiler!) he gets that old slaver's junk from his house, confronts him about it, and throws his ledger in the fire in front of him, the player obviously can kill this dude morally and without feeling bad or negative repercussions in the game. I cranked that pistol out, considered it, then pointed it up and said aloud: "Some people deserve to die for their sins. Not you. You deserve to live with it." This was a fuckin optional stranger encounter. There is no benefit to the player or penalty for it. But even I - the player who has literally shot a random NPC dude in the street for making fun of my 'fit - knew that the best solution to a problem is not always a bullet. No, that old slaver can die of disease or polio or exposure. My killing him now alleviates him from all the fun of being an outcast and Marr on society. Anyways, that's why Dutch said "We didn't have you. That's what happened." The implication that Arthur's input would have changed the outcome.
What that statement tells me is that was his way of telling Arthur if he had been there during, he could've (possibly) talked Dutch out of it, especially killing that woman.
I was totally convinced Micah was after Dutch's money, and Dutch himself as well. I thought that that was what he was up to when he tried to coax Dutch to go back for the money at the end of the game, that he wanted to know where it was stored so that he could steal it and afterwards conveniently hand Dutch over to the Pinkertons earning himself a clean slate (possibly, I mean we all know how that turned out for John) and a nice extra sum of money as well. Or he DID actually idealize Dutch... honestly, I can't tell for sure half the time. I don't really want to think of Micah as being a rat from the beginning, even though it's very likely. I mean, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a gang of people, some of whom have known each other for decades, falls apart completely just because of one random boy who's been with them for what? A couple of months? A year? At least in the events of the game you can excuse it what with Dutch losing his mind and all that, but before Blackwater everything was supposed to be at least kind of okay. Mannn I want a RDR3 being another prequel so bad!
He definitely didn't idolize or care about Dutch, he just wanted someone good to be able to watch his back. When Dutch shoots him in the hip in the ending, he brushed it off like nothing and was getting ready to execute both John and Dutch afterwards.
While I hate Micah in the game, I love his character. I love hating him. I think he's a little more cunning than most people want to give him credit for. He sees the weakness in Dutch. He pokes at it from time to time to see where the tipping point is. You can see it a lot in his movements. As he's talking to Dutch he will slowly creep closer and closer until he sees Dutch recoil. At that point he will often raise his hands in a sort of mock surrender pose and slowly back away. Arthur is a different story for him. He tries to use the same method on him but is rebuffed at every point. Micah knows how it would end if he and Arthur were to really square off (when he was healthy). He knows Arthur is better in a fight, even says so on a few occasions. After fully realizing it, he does everything he can to discredit Arthur and to make him look like a whiner and not worth having around. He would love nothing more than Dutch cutting Arthur loose. Arthur is the only reason that the gang held together as long as it did. He was the sole voice of reason. The other big players in the gang didn't have the nerve to stand up and speak their minds. Even Hosea is backed down on several occasions and kind of tucks his tail between his legs.
Landon Ricketts: "I shot one of the outlaws on that Blackwater Ferry Massacre back in the day" John Marston: "Huh I got shot by someone on the Blackwater Ferry Massacre back in the day" 'Insert pointing Spider-Man meme here'
I'd love to see what went down on that boat from our online characters perspective. especially if we were the ones shooting at dutches gang. I could see horley selling us as guns for hire to the pinkertons to get their favor & find the remaining people that could be involved with the murder of Jessica's husband. they really need to change up the online story it's terrible atm
That's actually what happenned, John didn't recognized Landon since he only saw young pictures of him and soon after the Blackwater massacre he left for Mexico and was probably dead, John was shot in the arm, he probably didn't saw the shooter. Landon saw John in his OG outfit and without a scare. The next time he sees him is 12 years later and has a brand new outfit and a scare on his face. That's heavily suggested in both game that it was Landon that shot John.
Yeah, I kind of figured that Micah was a rat from the very beginning when I finished the game. I started piecing bits together and was like, "What if Micah was just a UC for the Pinkertons?
I knew he was crazy from the start, but I honestly didn't expect him to be a rat. I really wasn't playing the game correctly, not putting attention to details, until Arthur died. When Arthur died I got devastated inside, and it makes me want to play again and put more attention to those tiny details.
I would love a RDR3 that's a prequel to this prequel, where you play as the Callander Boys (alternating between them like GTAV) & live everything up to the events in Blackwater. Their perspective would be great & their deaths lead perfectly into Arthur's arch.
What if Mac was never executed by Agent Milton? Agent Milton has been shown to be a stone hearted killer, so lying about the whereabouts of Mac Callender would not be a difficult sin for Milton to commit. Perhaps Milton didn't want the gang to look for Mac since he could have been a strong and valuable asset to the gang. The reason I'm saying this is it would be an absolute beautiful ending to the Red Dead Redemption (Trilogy?) Series if we were given the opportunity to play all the events leading up to the Blackwater Massacre as Mac. The difference being Mac lives, and perhaps you end up playing as somebody else (too lazy and tired to make suggestions on who) within the year 1904, which would be right between the end of RDR2 and the Epilogue. I would love to hear everyone else's thoughts about this. Except for those coming to talk shit I'm leaving you with a preemptive "fuck off".
Mac is definitely a good opportunity, considering he's the only Van Der Linde gang member we don't actually see die, or find evidence of his death, due to the fact we don't see his death, he could be used to further a storyline, e.g. he goes on a quest to find his old gang, and goes to each camp but the gangs moved to the next area, and as he goes along sees graves, Jenny, Davey, Sean, Hosea and Lenny as the story progresses, leading to Arthur's at the end and a realisation that the gang's over, and he goes on a revenge quest against Pinkerton leaders in response.
i was so shook when i first beat the game and arthur dies. everyone either left out of fear, or to protect others and he faced micah and dutch alone...a real badass. made john have the same hair and beard cut to honor the badass journey that was the game
8:40 well dutch is described as a character that contradicts his own philosophy and himself quite often. Considering that, makes sense that Dutch would shoot that girl. He contradicts himself all the time; he didn’t have much time to think, so he just did it anyway. And it definitely doesn’t help that Micah was supposedly urging him to do it.
Arthur didnt participate in there, thats why Van der Linde gang failed the heist
I don’t feel like I was told the truth either feller
@broomerd - Neither Hosea. Arguably the two people who kept the gang going over the years weren't involved in any single way.
what about the Saint Dennis bank
@N-Crash56 that went wrong because they were set up, blackwater was a normal heist that went wrong
Bananadog5b The Saint Denis Bank Robbery was probably a bank version of The Blackwater Massacre. The heist went horribly wrong, AND they lost all the money. I’m surprised that didn’t become The Saint Denis Massacre. You would honestly expect that after that heist, Lemoyne and Roanoke Ridge would be under Wanted: Dead Or Alive lockdown like Blackwater and New Austin.
“ Blackwater was home to the most infamous massacre in the RDR2 world”
Sooo the gang shooting up Saint Denis was just a picnic?
I know right? Bill even blurts out "this is worse than Blackwater!" during the gunfight and the Saint Denis bank robbery is one of the biggest events to happen in the whole game yet it never gets mentioned once in RDR? If RDR ever gets remastered, they'll definitely need to include additional context and references to tie-in better with RDR2.
Yeah I noticed that aswell and also saint denis’ police department and the Pinkerton is a much bigger force then black waters police department and also just sneaking into Blackwater or shooting the place up wouldn’t have been as hard as it is made out to be since they could survive much worse then that in saint denis and other parts of lemoyne
Justin I hope they remaster it! I didn’t get to play the first RDR when it came out. Would love to experience it after playing RDR2.
i call it the saint denis massacre 1899!
sean543213 i hear EVERYONE SAYING THIS. Ffs Bill says the SITUATION they were in was worse. In blackwater they could shoot down the street but in Saint denis they were trapped. But he doesn’t mean the massacre was worse
Whenever Micah breathes I just want to antagonize him
Yes
Arthur Morgan I like Micah, he is the best in the game, he did no wrong.
@@victorochoa3662😶😶😶😶
Arthur Morgan yeah I said it.
Quiet black lung, you shouldn't talk too much *cough cough*
If Dutch had a nickel every time he said "I have a plan" he'd get that one big score.
Wasn't the bank robbery in valentine a big score? They got around 30 thousand dollars from that bank and ik everyone got their share but cut that in half and it's still a shit ton of money, back then how could 15 thousand dollars not get you to Tahiti or Australia or especially the west
Dutch always has a plan like Preston Garvey always has a settlement that needs our help...
@Michael Beers "where's the loyalty?"
@@lwdrd probably because they wanted to bring all 20 people there and make a ranch
HAVE SOME GODDAMN FAITH
Literally everything micha was involved in, Pinkertons were there instantly. He was a rat from the beginning.
Everything before Guarma was the gang making too much noise
They shouldn't have instantly robbed Leviticus Cornwalls train after they just got out of that debacle. The blackwater massacre is questionable but I think Milton told the truth about Micah being a rat after guarma.
Adam Porter. Even the bank?
@@bradenleavitt5607 yes, killing Bronte made the police alert and attracted the pinkertons
@@adamporter3402 Not to mention the whole trolley station debacle. Dutch would've had less chance of being bitten by a snake if he shoved it up his ass than having that bank heist go to shit.
"Blackwater Massacre, 37 dead"
Me, who killed 150 men in Valentine: oh no
Just wondering, do you have any clue where that "37 dead" number came from?
@@hamzachoudhry6951 newspaper
@@jordanaftab1181 I read all the newspapers in RDR1, where is the death count?
@@joaqu7002 in rdr2
what you do while free roam is not story related, so it doesn't count.
The character Arthur is what you see during the cutscenes and dialogues, outside that its you who is doing the bad stuff, not Arthur.
When you go to Micah's camp near Strawberry you see a wanted poster of Dutch. I feel like he had that for sinister purposes. Him being a rat from the start is very likely. Especially with him initially trying to win Arthur over to his side telling Arthur he should stick with him, "there's a bigger picture in all this" and Milton initially approaching Arthur in a non-hostile manner trying to persuade him to take a deal.
When can you go to that camp? Also where near strawberry is it?
@@grim_56 it's a mission when you Rob a stage coach with micah. After you free him from strawberry jail in chapter 2.
My question then is why was he so focused on the Blackwater money?
Brodie 465
Ah thank you
Lun Lun because 250.000$ in 1899 was around 7.000.000$ in todays money.
I think Micah was a rat from the beginning. When you go to rob the bank in St. Denis Micah is wearing a white suit while the rest of the gang is in black. Micah wanted to stand out to the Pinkerton agents to avoid being shot.
Micah literally betrays the Van Der Linden gang just as when Judas betrayed Christ
Ayo that’s actually a good noticing
@goromajima12 I never saw him kill a Pinkerton. I saw him shooting guns but never visually saw a Pinkerton fall from a bullet he shot.
that was his thinking but when they return from the island and pinkertons attack them in the cabin with the machine gun l dont think they wanted any of them left alive even him
Fun fact: after you free Micah from strawberry, go visit the temporary camp Micah was staying at before joining the gang, you'll find a newspaper clip and a bounty poster for Dutch. .... Suggesting he was planning on betraying all along.
The massacre is nothing compared to my shootings when I play
Ha! You shoulda looked at me when I was shooting down a school
@@gregory2225 America in a nutshell
The only time I got pissed on the playthrough of the game Arthur's honor passed from max to minimum. That time I think I could have taken down the fort that's at the north
Suomalainen??
@@goofymiko juu
Before RDR2 came out, I was sure we would get closure on what happend in Blackwater. 1 year later and details are still ambiguous. Call me crazy but a prequel to RDR2 isnt as crazy as it sounds. Imagine the story going back in time rather than forward. Hell, imagine playing as Davey or Mac and then playing as Arthur in the epilogue.
Could be cool. And at the end of the story a cinematic cutscene of the ferry job.
yes, just yes
AbsoluteMadDog™ it would be amazing to play the game from when the gang began all the way to the blackwater massacre. Getting closure on the massacre would be the perfect end to the series of Red Dead Redemption
Shut up they left it like that on purpose this is what they wanted to make it
@@john_7000 Yeah I agree, people shouldn't have wishes or thoughts or even wants! Anyone who does should shut up.
Arthur's a fascinating character. Rough and tough, but also quite well-spoken and intelligent.
Agreed, I didn't like how a bunch of dialogue kept calling him dumb or dull or a brute, he clearly wasn't
@@thekingsjester0 I think it was because he wasn't educated in the typical sense. To many of the NPCs he was "dumb".
@@thekingsjester0 Hosea says Arthur plays dumb. He told him this when I was playing at Clemens Point
He can also draw well.
OPTC John on the other hand, not so much
I always found it odd how often Micah was gone, like he's planning. And in a lot of missions when Guns come out he disappears. Always acted like a rat
Isn't Arthur gone a lot?
@@Mephilis78..But you saw what he was doing.
@@Mephilis78 Yeah but that's really the player's choice. Story-wise Arthur would probably go to one mission after the other without wasting any time. He could be gone a reasonable amount of times for a reasonable time period doing things that benefit the gang as well such as hunting or robbing stagecoaches to bring camp money.
@@great-mighty9603 realistically, he would be a human character that has downtime from questing.. You gotta take a shit sometime.
@@Mephilis78 u r Arthur tho?
Fun fact, reading Arthur's journal makes the story 10x better. He talks about all sorts of things never mentioned or are cryptic.
Fun opinion*
@@brandonvaughn8382 nah they just facts
Loved to read his journal, each time i saw the icon that it was updated i tried to find a nice spot to read.
@@oggiwa I love how Arthur shows his true feelings in the journal, especially near the end when he’s forgiving debts.
It’s wild; oh my first two play throughs I didn’t really use the journal on purpose. It wasn’t until my third play through that I realized it was a treasure trove of information regarding Arthur’s real feelings and perception of people and events that took place over 6 chapters. I started reading through it and couldn’t stop.
Judge: Your looking at 20 years
6ix9ine: I know where gavin is
Django lmaoooo
Bruhh🤣🤣🤣🤣
Daym 😂😂😂
I’m stealing that joke.
Micha: write that down write that down!
"And who are you?"
"Rip Van Winkle."
"...huh."
Always loved that exchange
Facts 😭😭😂😭 I lost it the first time I heard him say that 😭😂
Ted Studt *rip van winkel
Lakoeke Rip Van Winkle*
Logan nope dutch name
Lakoeke ummm what?
Arthur: Wtf happened on that boat?!
The whole gang: Wouldn’t YOU like to know?
Except Javier, who actually tried explaining what he could
@@Crxsseyed1 all tried their best to explain, but it was chaotic.
I believe with my whole heart Gavin was part of the massacre.
@@erikallen3804 jokes aren't meant to be taken that seriously.
Erik Allen you’re a loser
Yeah, Gavin dies in the massacre and Nigel never really got over it, that's why he continues to search for him lmao
@@erikallen3804 or Niegel killed him and hit his head and frogot
That would make a shit load of sense, though if the massacre was that big I don't understand why the cemetery is that small, Gavin would probably a name on a stone. Also feel bad that they got rid of the funny text like in Odd Fellow's Rest, would've loved something similar like "Freak's Rest" somewhere in Roanoke Ridge as a little nod to the first game.
Could you imagine how much could have changed if they just sent Sadie to get the money in blackwater?
I don’t think there would be a blackwater then
City was locked down with Pinkertons regulating the whole area. Plus early on she couldn't be trusted by anyone in the gang to get the money let alone mentally fit to do so after losing her husband.
How would they trust that she didn’t just run away with the money?
OfficialCSxYT facts
She couldn't even handle Pinkertons when she gave Arthur the sniper rifle in chapter six. If Arthur had went or another senior (maybe junior) gun, they might stand a chance.
no one is gonna talk about how beautiful arthurs art is? he's talented af, i could never draw art like his with pen.
Charcoal does wonders.
John has desecrated the journal with his drawings
In a matter of seconds
@@lowlylad3457 Personally I love Johns drawings xD they are cute
@@lowlylad3457 yh but it gives so mutch more life to the journal and also it gives us more info about john, hes a man whos killed hunreds of people but cant swim or draw for shit XD
Clearly Micah was a double agent for the Pinkertons. Explains how they found Arthur while he was fishing with young Jack. I can’t think of another explanation.
I could see that. It could low key be why the gang was targeting Cornwall’s assets. Pinks wanted to stay on the Cornwall contact for as long as they could. Micah was probably a road agent.
Nah, couldn't be an agent. He's a snitch
It's possible to do that mission before Micah returns back to camp. After you break him out from Strawberry, he lives on his own for a good while, planning the stage coach job.
Abigail never told Arthur to go fishing with Jack, so how would Micah know? Also why would Milton lie about Micah being a rat AFTER Guarma?
"found"
Its all a conspiracy. Its obvious Gavin did it all and set them up.
Duh
What if Gav died in the massacre
@@TheCrayonMan529 Gavin isn't the kinda guy to go around and die. No he is more of a murderous type.
TheCrayonMan529 that's actually a really logical theorie
I killed gavin got tired of him appearing everywhere looking for his mate he should try looking at his name tag that will tell him where his friend is lol
Reading Arthur's journal makes me want to get a journal.
Do it fam
Me too
His entries about mary
omg so true
I’m not committed enough to write in it all the time lol
You ever notice that while micah is in jail arthur lenny bill and karen pull the bank robbery in valentine without getting stopped like they do when micah is around
Arthur breaks Micah out of jail in Chapter 2.
The Valentine Bank Robbery takes place during Chapter 3.
@@whitenoize3697 yeah I guess I always break micah out in the latest part I can which usually tales place after that heist
To be fair, Valentine is a small livestock town, so there isn't nearly as much security as there are in other areas of the game
Dutch: 🤔 you're right... maybe John betrayed us!
@@whitenoize3697 well he is stoll in strabarry far away from camp because let's be honest me at least don't rob the stage coach whith him tell no more story missions pop up so he wasn't there for it to go rong
This only thing I know for certain about what happened at Blackwater is:
1. Dutch at one point said, "We need money!"
2. Dutch at one point said, "Tahiti"
Everything else remains a mystery
3. “One more score Arthur”
"HAVE SOME DAMN FAITH!"
"I have a plan"
The irony, Dutch had some of the money from the Ferry. You discover this if you return to the cave with the key. So Dutch not only made his gang pay the cost of his camp and support, he likely was going to level them in time anyways. He had been lying to Arthur and much of the gang all through RDR2.
@@StacieMMeier I don't remember where I saw it but it's stated or implied that the land out west the Gang was originally going to purchase before the Blackwater Job was only going to cost around $2,000. By the time the Gang is hiding at Clemen's Point or even Shady Belle, they have multiple Magnitudes of that. Off the top of my head from when I last played, I think they had over $10,000 in savings by that point, never mind whatever else Dutch had personally squirreled away and what people were putting into the camp funds box.
Dutch never planned to settle down or retire, and he acknowledged as much before he died in RDR1. He was just a greedy, violent man stringing along the people who trusted him.
It's funny how Dutch's insanity is seen as a slow descent when he was really a bad apple from the start. Good men don't just shoot innocent women.
Literally. I am convinced Dutch was nothing more than a fraud after reading that part in Arthur's journal about Dutch deciding not to buy some good land, and being confused as to why (clearly Dutch was being vague). He finally got the chance to settle and live a life on the outskirts of civilised society, and he doesn't take it...Because doing so would require Dutch to humble himself, and stop shooting people, stop all the grand speeches, stop the extravagant robberies and the generally thrilling life of an outlaw.
@sleeping bear cope.
I don't get why a lot of ppl are excusing him because of brain injury or whateva. As John said, he's like that from the start.
Oh, there's other subtle hints. You may have noticed that in the Ledger, Dutch doesn't allow anyone else's living conditions to be upgraded until his are, and even labels his tent upgrade as "First Things First," implying that you're meant to attend his needs before anyone else's. This is what tipped me off initially to Dutch's questionable leadership, even way back in chapter 2.
And furthermore, "Gang Savings" Cuts of mission profits? Many players notice that those don't go into the actual gang's savings (the contribution box) but rather seem to disappear, despite being 50% of the score from every mission. You can either mark that off as a game mechanic and take it in stride, or you can deduce that the money has to be going *somewhere* and Dutch is the one who'd be in charge of where that is. So why is he not willing to spend the gang's "emergency" money to help the gang during RDR2, when the gang is in a constant state of emergency?
You could also note that the only character who dresses better than Dutch in the entire gang is Trelawney, who mostly runs solo and soft-work jobs. Even Strauss dresses just a bit rattier than Dutch, and he's the banker. Dutch is consistently wearing a fancy suit (with or without coat) that is well-embroidered. This style is unique to him and it screams "I am important. I am rich. I am special." Not the best trait to have in a leader.
*Me almost running someone over*
Them: Hey watch out!
Me: *Loads shotgun*
Also Me: Look at me i just gave this man *50* Cents!
Micah is 6ix9ine’s ancestor that’s the heirloom he left behind for his grand children. The ability to snitch
Actually Micah is the legendary Rat, you can hunt him in the game kinda early. Search around for it on TH-cam, it's great!!!
@@josiahgodwin2933 Brilliant comment
Ok
Arthur: How can you betray us Micah?
Micah: don't know, just let my nuts hang
I’m waiting for a 6ix9ine mod to come out for Micah on PC
Can we all just praise the guy gavin guy. He looked for his friend for 8 years and didn't stop when he got halfway through the country.
Dude when I saw him as John, I was like Bru wtf
You have to look up the theories about Gavin's friend!! It's insane
Yeah I saw him wandering around tumbleweed freaking out
Yoo I basically just spoke to this guy in the game an hr ago
Gavin was an imaginary friend
Fun fact: The Pinkertons were a REAL private security company and, I believe, was accurately portrayed in RDR2. Rockstar clearly got inspiration from U.S. history with Cornelius Vanderbilt, and how they incorporated the history of that agency to their advantage was impressive.
Funny enough, the Pinkerton Detective Agency still exists today (albeit under a different name and on a much more limited scale since the rise of the FBI).
I though you were gonna call the FBI the Pinkertons, which would be fitting considering the FBIs behavior, especially during The Waco siege.
The Pinkerton agency tried to sue r* for defamation after the game came out
Yup I believe they are or a part of Securitas now.
@@InsideAssassin2 Ah yes defamation of the Pinkerton Detective Agency, just ignore their history and Rockstar sure did paint them in a bad light here.
Coal war time
Also note that when Sean dies, Micah is overly exaggerating the phrase “They shot me!” almost as if he were surprised. This leads me to believe he might have been involved with that negotiation “going south” too.
Bill said that, he said "I can't believe you shot me, you bastards!" right as the shootout in Rhodes started.
Shadowdog I have realized this, thanks. But a point I’ve been meaning to add to this comment (which is very obvious) is that Micah was the only one wearing a bright suit during the Saint Denis bank robbery, therefore leading on more of a hint to him being a rat and showing who he was so he wouldn’t be killed in the crossfire.
@@johnmarston3434 That's very possible, I always figured the gangs activity throughout Saint Dennis is what gave them away though. The trolley cart shootout and shootout at Bronts's mansion screamed the gang.
@@nlrenzo9432 ???
@@johnmarston3434 Why wouldn't Milton tell Arthur he was being screwed all along then? He thought he had Arthur dead to rights and it would be more angering if Micah was fucking them the whole time and not just after Guarma
everyone: Why did you killed the girl?
Dutch: yes.
Dutch: but I have a plan !!!
Dutch: She didn’t believe in THE PLAN, ARTHUR
@@beefs0ck911 HAVE SOME GODAMN FAITH ARTHUR
gANG, tHATS tHE lAST jOB tHEN wE wILL gO tAHITI aND fARM mANGOES
"She looked at me funny"
I just want a game where Arthur goes around doing side quests with Lenny, Charles and Sadie.
Yesss! Me too!
what about Hosea John and Sean
And javier and hosea
So RDR2?
RDR3 will be previously to RDR2. About Davey, Mac , jenny & etc. Mark my words
i abdolutely love the intentional ambiguity of the Blackwater Massacre so much. It 100% reminds me of the set up bank heist from right before Resevoir Dogs. Conficting accounts and tensions between characters about the events off screen in both RDR2 and Resevoir Dogs leaves a constant looming, almost scary presence over the rest of the stories.
it is very similar
A part of me wants to see young Arthur and young John, switching between the two like in gta.
I believe RDR 3 will be the John Dillinger days with Jack Marston becoming a bounty hunter dealing with the birth of extreme technology such as cars semi automatic pistols and such! Jack being a bounty hunter makes it so his honor can go either way! Then we will work are way into the mob days but unlike GTA it will be all about the mobs!
Tyler Sane ew, I hate adult Jack.
For the love of god no, the gta 5 system was just awful.
Khoros Mythos I loved it.
I think it would be cool to play as van and the end of the game you do and fail in blackwater and instead of the player physically dying you get to see van start to mentally die becoming unplayable as he starts losing control over rational thought. (Rdr2 dlc would probibly work better tho)
What's also interesting is that Mac is the only gang member we see nothing of. Davey, we see him in the flesh, albeit nearly dead. Even Jenny was drawn in Arthur's journal. The way the gang talks about Mac as well...apparently he was something special.
That’s because Mac is going to be the protagonist of rdr 3. The end of the game is going to be you dying in the blackwater massacre
@@AnarchyEqualityPeace can't w8 for mac to say:
"GO ARTHUR, AND NEVER LOOK BACK" sh*t again and he dies holding them pinkertons off
@@AnarchyEqualityPeace oh my god, please don’t give me this false hope
This is genius
I’ve always had a feeling there’s no way the RDR story DOESN’T end with us having a play through of the Blackwater massacre in some way shape or form. They wouldn’t do that to us
RIGHT?!
@@mukeshkumar-ey1ge wasn’t Mac held from the Pinkertons? He didn’t die in the fight only Jenny
Me with infinite ammo cheat: “I’m doing a sequel”
GT Mijo Warrior how can you access chests on Xbox?
@@Jimothyjohns cheat codes
Caleb Messinger you probably found out already but you need to find and buy newspapers for certain cheat codes and different newspapers are available later in missions and in later chapters
We’re doing a sequel. We’re back by unpopular demand. Come on every body load ya rifles!
We’re doing a sequel and everybody knows that the sequels never quite as good
infinite ammo or not, that street is going to be covered with blood by the time that train is finished. Though I now have a 1.5k bounty in lemoyne
Imagine how much more greater things would have been if Dutch didn't go to that bar in blackwater
Michael was a rat, pinkertons would have just found another way to put him under cover with the gang
@@Enonymous99 Micah was in witness protection
@@joaoassumpcao3347 "witness protection for what?
No one was convicted of anything"
Darkviperau
I’m pretty sure Micah would’ve just found him some place else, if the whole thing truly was a set up then Micah and the Pinkerton were probably tracking them and planning to get an in with Dutch in any number of ways
@@RedneckJesus42069 "there aren't cougars in missions"- Matthew Judge
"37 people died"
Me looking at player stats:oopsy
Now im gonna look at my stats now
How do you see the stats?
@@jaydhills5966 go on to progress then weapons then get all the kills from your weapons have with your stats 😂😂last time I checked I had 1,000 on my sidearm alone
37 people died: my killing spree of the Saint Denis graveyard where i killed over 100 policemen funneling through the graveyard all dying via pump shotgun and evans repeater
“Dutch killed a girl, in a bad way, but it was a bad situation”
Dutch in RDR: *Have the girl John*
"My parting gift to you John"
*I have a plan*
@@allninelivez7631 Why did you ruin the mood
@@scantorange3907 i just need time.
@@jordandennis6794 you need more moneh
Dutch lost his mind when he hit his head on the tram in saint denis
"i see triple" bad injury
The fact that he killed the girl in Blackwater proves that Dutch's problem is his ego, which falls apart under pressure.
That's why he spends most of the game telling himself that everything will be fine and trying to convince everyone of it, he can't deal with things not going the exact way he wants.
That, along with no Hosea to keep him in check is what lead to the gang's downfall.
After Guarma (which was a hell hole that killed any fantasies about running off to any tropical island since it was even worse than the country they escaped from), when things are getting out of hand, him being more erratic and violent is just him lashing out at the world for not letting him have his way, and that's what leads to the Dutch we see in RDR1, who has no aim beyond causing chaos everywhere, perhaps as a form of revenge against the world, but mostly against the USA and the government, since they killed the only way of life he knew, which he only accepts at the very end.
I'd also like to point out that the period known as "the Wild West" is agreed to be a 30 year long period between 1865 and 1895.
The events of RDR2 happen in 1899 (not counting the epilogue, which happens in 1907)
Even at the beginning of the game their era was already over and government agencies had already been sweeping the country clean, very few of them were left, it was just a matter of time before the times catched up to them.
David Stinger You put it BEAUTIFULLY! I couldnt agree more.
@@davidstinger1134 In the game they talked about people changing or people becoming more of what they really are. After Hosea died, as you wrote, there were nobody to keep Dutch from becoming more of what he really are.
You got that from the mrbossFTW video didnt you?
Hear me out. Rdr3, your Mac callendar, they’ve opened up another map past the grizzlies just as big as the 2nd, you start there, making your way down towards Blackwater, seeing the journey of the gang along the way, young Arthur etc. with the last mission being the Blackwater massacre. Finally giving us closure to all our unanswered questions so far.
Not bad!
How about this you play as Dutch instead? How story leading up to the massacre a
If the game ends in Blackwater with Mac's death, then there can't be an epilogue starting with Arthur as that would just be the beginning of RDR2.
@@nickv1212 It doesn't have to be Arthur, or even one of the gang members. I think it would be cool to get the perspective of an agent, or even someone from a rival gang.
@@lb3720 So play as the Pinkerton/gang member that killed Mac? Last time we had that in a game, the internet couldn't handle it. But I'm down. Prepare for a lot of compilations of all the ways to commit suicide as this MC killer, though, especially if they're who you play as throughout the epilogue.
@@nickv1212 It doesn't have to be Mac's killer, because if that's the case would have to play as Agent Milton. I just think If we had another RDR game revolving around the same characters, I would want a different perspective where the Van der Linde gang are the antagonist, even if it's just for the epilogue.
1:35 That was the slowest fade to black I have ever seen in my life.
IKR
Yeah, it ends at 1:47. That's a whole 12 seconds of fade-to-black.
Honestly, I thought my phone died. 🤣
🤣
I literally had to skip ahead and it was still fading 😭😭😭
Tip for everyone who hasnt already. Read the entire journal its a great read.
I second this. During my first playthrough of this game I didn’t read much of Arthur’s journal but the second time I did. If you read it it adds a whole lot of context to the game
Cynical I didn’t say it explained the Blackwater incident bro but I guess I shouldn’t have said it adds context but still would recommend everyone to read it because it’s one of the most overlooked parts of the game at least I overlooked it during my initial playthrough & I’m sure I’m not the only person to kinda rush thru the game initially. My first time playing it I pretty much only spammed the storyline & didn’t do too many side quests & that was a mistake. I’m playing it again now for the 4th time & can’t believe how much stuff I’ve missed in this game
@@Kelz91 just ignore em...
Micah: Did you see the rat?
Rdr2 players: Yeah I see you
*I'm lookin' at him right now. >=/
Arthur: give me a moment to get rid of him
About Arthurs journal, I find it very cute that Arthur was such a good drawer, then John kept going with very childish ones
12:20
" Who are you?"
"...Rip Van Winkle."
".. *h u h* "
Good day sir...
I'm gonna be honest I don't remember that scene at all. Was that at the horseshoe camp? The only encounter with Pinkertons i remember in that chapter was when I took Jack fishing
@@rorybanta515 It's in the camp near Rhodes after the shootout at Braithwaite Manor if I remember correctly.
@John Marston
Alternate meme:
"Who might you be?"
John: "Rip Van Winkle."
Agent Milton: "Understandable, have a nice day"
Imagine if he said Jim Milton...
I find it heartbreaking when Javier said “Dutch killed a girl, in a bad way, but I was a bad situation” he doesn’t say that Dutch’s choice was a horrible choice, he immediately trys to defend Dutch as soon as he says that, he really trusted him
"Although he really admired Dutch, of course, but then we all did."-John Marston.
Heidi McCourt. I remember when in RDR1 during the Stranger side quest he mentions "Do you remember Heidi McCourt's face? She was a girl Dutch Van Der Linde shot on the ferry raid way back, the same day you got shot. Pretty girl, until her face was plastered over the wall and her eyes were hanging by the threat of a tendon"
Just like the comment section
Really? Your heart broke over this? LOL
@@PolishEddie92 it's amazing how people just melt over really basic writing. Lol maybe it's because they've been flooded with garbage tv and movies for over 10 years, and it makes this look like some kind of masterpiece.
Imagine if Landon Ricketts and John may have actually shot at each other during the massacre.
That would be crazy
Landon is corny. He's supposed to be this default badass when you first meet him, John would've smoked him
@AJGaming "in his time"
Hmm that would be fascinating, having landon chasing the gang as they try to escape from the ferry. something to see that would be.
@@johnhawthorn5393 Shutup Steve
I feel like Strawberry, when saving Micah, was more of a massacre than Blackwater, but if not, then it’s hard to imagine just how deadly the fighting was in Blackwater.
pinkerton: okay is there anything else you want to tell us
micah: i know where gavin is
I'm everywhere and nowhere.
@@HoodlumMedia GAVIN?
GAVIIIIIN!?! GAAAV!!!
Gavin??? Where are you?
I'm so worried
I always laugh when they call it a "massacre" i mean c'mon we killed a lot more during rdr2
yeah but we never saw how bad it really got, that is what makes it different from everything else.
It's not canon that the player is going to be shooting towns left and right.
@Erwin Rommel Not really. You can keep your L.
But you made wanted dead or alive everywhere.
True True
Dutch wasn't always insane. I feel as if the stress was getting to him at first, then after the tram incident in Saint Denis he went completely mad. The real reason for all this though, is that Dutch never wanted the gang to stop being Outlaws. The gang could have very easily just gone more Westward to places like Armadillo or Tumbleweed, but ultimately Dutch created this illusion of grandeur that made everyone think there was a way out. So he lead everyone on to do more outlaw-like things until finally what happened happened.
Yeh I think that's basically it. Part of Dutch surely was idealistic, believing in the values of communal outlaw life, but part of it was always also a hatred of civilisation and its oppressive power, and he defined his life as a fight against that. So when the screw finally begins to turn on him and his gang, his idealism starts to falter and the hate takes over, and he becomes motivated more by taking revenge on those who brought his way of life to an end (Cornwall, Bronte, the old plantation families), and then gradually his hate extends to anyone who isn't completely loyal to the survival of his outlaw gang, which eventually includes Arthur. Arthur gradually accepts that the outlaw life is over, and takes steps to save as many lives as possible from its downfall. But Dutch could never let it go, so when Arthur acts in a way that undermines the gang's survival, even if it saves more lives, it really appears to Dutch as a betrayal of who they are. That's the only way I can make sense of how Dutch puts so much trust in Micah as well -- Micah is full of hate and is basically the farthest from civilisation of any member of the gang - Dutch is attracted to him because he knows deep down that Micah is the kind of man he is turning into (or the kind of man he really is, depending on your point of view).
What he did was Awful though
I think armadillo & tumbleweed wouldn't be the best choices for the gang lol. Armadillo still got that corella virus curse, & tumbleweed has that lunatic sheriff chief in their town
Also, when he tells Cornwall "I tell you what, you give me 10 thousands dollars and this boat, and I'll let you live" Cornall: "I'll do no such thing"
Then Dutch responds "You sure? Good, I prefer it this way" and shoots Cornwall.
He enjoyed that, the same way he enjoyed killing Bronte.
Dutch didn't only have a problem with authority, he hated men more powerful than him, because they had what he didn't, which was power, money and freedom altogether. Dutch could have had power and money, but he was never going to live free, and that was what he was desperately seeking for, and he knew deep down that dream was over. That's what drove him mad. But he didn't want to admit it, because admiting it would mean he failed, which would also mean everyone who died, died in vain. And that to a narcissist is absolutely impossible to accept, because that would mean no one would be able to follow him anymore which would mean everyone around him would see him as a failure, and not a leader.
That's why Dutch kept "trying", not because his dream would ever come true, but because he'd rather die trying, than living with the realisation that he failed.
"We can't fight change, we can't fight nature, we can't fight gravity, all my life, all I ever did was fight"
When Dutch said this with Arthur on that cliff, that was HIM finally admiting his failure, he already knew the idea was over right THERE, him saying it again in 1911 confirms their dream had died 12 years ago.
Do you guys ever think back to why Dutch left the Blackwater money after he killed Micah? It wasn't a way of making up for what he did to Arthur and John, it was because it wouldn't have made any difference, the dream was already over a long time ago. Dutch then manipulated the indians again so that he could take revenge on the city that ruined it all, Blackwater, and it was exactly after he killed Heidi McCourt.
I'm sorry for the long comment, but I find Dutch's charakter fascinating.
He also suffered a head injury on the trolley, you can hear him muttering my head hurts and I don’t feel so good for a while after the mission. Probably accelerated the madness
If Arthur’s journal existed, today, it would be a historical artifact.
You can also use the following command to create a new file called the following command to create a new folder called the new folder in the directory and then use the following command to create a new folder named after you and your friends in the same folder in a new directory named after you and the other person you are with in the same directory as the previous
@@LCW785 thanks you
RDR3 should be before RDR2
And that Arthur is young. and the bank heist the end mission
I feel that they could just do a dlc before Blackwater instead of a whole game, but I wouldn't complain if they made RDR3
I'd like if we could play as Mac or Davey Callander
It should be set in Ukraine and you play as a cossack
@@jimbo5107 Playing as Dutch in RDR 3 could be pretty interresting, IMO. Really seeing the whole story behind the rise and the downfall of "The man with a plan" could kick ass.
They're probably making RDR 3 as we speak.
"I'm gonna make the blackwater massacre look like a comedy routine" ~Me, with a fully upgraded double barreled shotgun in valentine
Me during the saint denis robbery. RIP Hosea Matthews and Lenny Summers.
nothing compared to me with fully upgraded duel lemat revolvers
@@faisalchaudhry5281 yes I had that too
Me pulling up to Saint Denis with a minigun mod
Me with a maxed out gold volcanic pistol, maxed out gold schoefield revolver,maxed out gold carbine repeater and maxed out gold bolt action rifle:you are dead
You're probably the only RDR2 youtuber I can take seriously, no 13 minute videos explaining 3 minutes of content, no bullshit, straight facts.
what about boznean
StrangeMan is also good
nerds
Strange man
Accurate
Can we really appreciate the voice actor of Micah he played that villain amazingly
And not just the voice, all his maneirisms and expressions since it was mostly mocap/performance capture, as soon as Micah appear on screen you want to fill him with bullets, fantastic work from Peter Bloomquist
Rip Mac, Davey and Jenny. We hardly knew ya.
Like, literally, we hardly knew em.
We might play as one of them in RDR3, or even all of them. Food for thought
Lone Wolf1773 annabelle and bessie too
Feel like davey will be who we use in rd3
See you boys in 10 years!
@@lonzellowe9101 maybe mac and davey both since their brothers.
It's interesting how how one line of cut dialogue can change a character from "Ruthless lawman hellbent on destroying gang" to "Man seeking revenge for murdered mother"
Well he was pretty respectful in rdr 1 way more so then ross and archer didn't even show up for john's death.
This is an English technique called “framing”,
Archer Fordham?
Archer is a respectable guy. Funnily enough he gets furious when John calls him son of a whore
For anybody still wanting to get an idea of what it looked like, if you listen very closely during the Saint Denis bank robbery when the shooting starts, you can hear Bill comment how "this is WORSE than blackwater"
Man that was a really Big bullet rain
Rdo valentine 💀
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360
*Logs in*
Gest brutally sniped
@@mandodo did you know that paint it blak
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360 that piece of trash of a card. I think it's Even more broken than that snail card
The Heidi murder was an early warning that Dutch had a tendency to do psychopathic things when on scores, if he thought nobody would survive to remember it.
I think it was a lifting of the mask. We saw it again when John hinted that "there was a moment there where Dutch could have done something" to help, or when he abandoned Arthur in the oil fields.
Those last two were also well after he had started to distrust Arthur and John
Micah definitely had been planning from the very beginning. After all when you find him on the mountain at the end of the game he states “I have the money from blackwater” meaning he knew where it was, he was clearly okay to go back there without troubles being involved too (because he’s a good employee to Milton)
That literally makes no sense. The one bag of money Arthur picks up if you go back for it after the army pay train robbery is almost $43K. They took many bags of money, they had no reason to go back to blackwater lol. Bell was just talking shit like he liked to do. I doubt he was more than a "little birdy" to the pinkertons. The last few months of the Van der linde gang were very noisy, I doubt they actually needed his help.
Theory time. Micah was an undercover pinkerton from day 1?
He asks Dutch the whole game to go there, he even offers himself going alone for it I believe, Dutch just needs to say yes, which he doesn't. He was obssesed with that money, talks about it all the time, even before they go rob the bank in Saint Denis. And he would go there even if it meant there would be super high risk for that money, which is shown in Strawberry after you break him out, he goes to shoot the whole town instead of fleeing, because he wanted his weapon. If he is okay to shoot the whole town for one gun, he surely is brave enough to go to the hell and back for the big money. So there is no surprise he went to get it after the gang fell apart.
If Dutch would say yes to him tho... well it would be interesting to see what would happen.
@@syteanric micah prolly worked with the odriscolls a few times too
@@syteanric could be but why wouldn’t Micah just tell the pinkertons where the gang was every time and jump the gang?
Arthur’s journal is so awesome. He is such a talented artist. Crazy how his sketches differ from John’s XD
Me:*Sees Blackwater and Dutch*
Also me: *Clicks faster than my lost interest in odyssey*
Exactly
Oddisey the AC Game ?
AC odyssey?
@@dkmarcusdk867 yes
@@carlosregidor2524 yes
I think rdr3 would be interesting if it showed Arthur's early days with Dutch and Hosea or even events leading up to Blackwater. Maybe having it end in Blackwater just before the heist to keep the exact details a mystery.
The final cutscene: the gang riding into BW- boarding the ferry, beginning the robbery; followed by a black-screen and a hail of bullets firing off.
People would be so mad lol
What reeeeeeally happened on that boat?
BOAHT*
I didn’t do it
We missed you. That's what happened.
NOW GO OUT AND MAKE SOME MONEEEEEEH.
Arthur Morgan well it’s really more of a plan gone wrong but not to worry I have a plan but we need more money
Dutch Van Der Linde I thought we was headin west?
Would really love to see the events that took place at Blackwater. Red Dead’s world and story lore are so well done!
No. It's best it remains a mystery. With all of the unreliable narrators.
@@IdleDrifter I disagree, not only because I like getting answers to those questions, but also because the same thing could've been said about the Van Der Linde gang when only RDR1 was out. We only knew about them from what John, Bill, Havier, and Dutch said about them. Very similar to the mystery of the blackwater heist. But, RDR2 went back in time and gave us answers and broke that mystery. RDR3 (when it releases in 2052 lol) could do the same thing and end with the Blackwater heist, or something of that sort. I understand liking the mystery element of it, but I personally think not knowing what happened there weakened the story. Seeing Dutch's first moments of diving into insanity would've been great. I think the main reason they didn't is bc it would've painted Dutch as a villain too early on if executed incorrectly. But even then, I think they could've just had him show immediate remorse for what he did. They are outlaws after all. I wanna see the events unfold.
Probably will in Rdr3
I’ve always wondered how cool it would have been, all the gang members, save Hosea and Arthur, on a boat, shooting at police and Pinkertons from all around.
Red dead redemption 3, young Arthur to joining all the way to just before blackwater
Jimmy Brookes was also seen by the ladies. Tilly, Karen and Mary Beth said that man is stairing at us.
It has no deeper meaning. They’re just saying that Jimmy Brooks was looking at then suspiciously.
I loved the idea that they genuinely helped the poor when they first became a gang, shows that Arthur has always been a good man hidden beneath it all!
I think people who want to pin everything on Micah are being too generous to Dutch.
Dutch descended into madness after events that were perpetrated by Micah. Micah is literally the one who destroyed the whole gang.
Parallel Dutch kept putting the gang into bad situations where they should’ve just laid low but instead Dutch always made it a point to mess with whoever had the power in that area
@@matthewkudray4840 they were going to be fine if it wasnt for micah
It's like Rains Fall said "you can't change anyone, they only become more of what they are".
Dutch was always a opportunist who used people, yea he had morals but only because Hosea had morals, he was only as good as the man next to him.
As all the good members slowly died out his true sinister side started molding, he was always like that.
I don't understand why people can't see that either.
Dutch would've ruined everything eventually but Micah quickened the pace.
This massacre is nothing compared to the atrocities I commit on daily basis while casually playing
True
Casually murdering more officer then there are people in the town, robbing trains for 50 bucks and murdering 23 officers and guards, casually robbing anyone I see for a couple shekels
John's "Rip Van Winkle" answer gets me every time.
Its crazy to think that John didn't have those scars before the games story when they was in Blackwater I always wondered what he looked like without the scars.
There's still one question left, how did someone as skilled as Charles Smith burn his hands during the heist? Rockstar clearly leaving this thread open, did Charles try to redirect Dutch's gun as he shot Heidi McCourt? The gun discharges, causing the barrel to heat up and burn his hand.
Omnifas 😶😶
I can assure you that a gun barrel does not get that hot after shooting a few times that you will get a severe burn by pushing it away
AnanasIegenJuice think about it though this was back then
@@jesusbruh9103 What does it have to do being back then? They are using blackpowder which I have heard might heat up firearms faster than smokeless powder. But they are using 6 shot revolvers. They dont have the firerate of a modern handgun with 15+ shot magasines that can be reloaded in 2 secs. They have to load each cartridge manually. I just dont see a revolver like that being heated enough to cause a serious burn by pushing it away
Probably wasn't anything like that. Charles says it was a stupid mistake, he didn't know what happened on the riverboat any more than Arthur did, meaning he wasn't present, and if he tried to do that there'd be wayyyyy more animosity between Dutch and Charles. Dutch is not the kind of man that lets someone get away with showing him up, just look at Bronte or Braithwaite. He probably just burnt it by mistake while packing up camp in a hurry to flee Blackwater
It's my theory that Micah was a rat and saboteur from the beginning, but wasn't necessarily working for Pinkertons until the end of the game. I think he was a plant from the O'Driscolls to ruin Dutch. He seems to have some suspicious connections to O'Driscolls, which he goes to great lengths to obscure (like killing most of Strawberry) and in "blessed are the peace-makers" it seemed like he was totally part of the plan to set up the trap. His manners, attitude and expectations also seem pretty in-line with how the O'Driscoll's operate. I also think he betrayed Colm to the Pinkertons when he got picked up after Grauma, as Colm is captured shortly afterwards.
i mean when dutch and micah go to meet colm odriscolls just happen to know where arthur is perched up
Your theory sucks and goes against what the game tells you. Should probably get that brain checked
@@Balmain_jacket i always assumed they had the same plan but the spot makes no sense if you come from their direction
It's refreshing to see someone also think that Micah was a rat from the beginning as well. I think he snitched on the gang regarding the Blackwater heist. He might or might not have necessarily talked to the cops, but thinking about how the serial killer was writing letters go the newspapers, he could have done something similar but to the cops. I think he wanted the whole gang killed (at least the big players in the heist) and gotten away with the money himself.
Too many hints at Micah screwing over the gang ever since he joined up...BBz
I really hope rdr3 gets made and it could start by Arthur being on the streets and getting recruited by the gang. And see all the gang members get recruited and it end right before. Or after the massacre I really think it would be good
If it's anything like the other games you'll start off as a different character. Likely Mac as he seems to be the only character that would know the gang and make it to the end of the massacre. Then in the epilogue after Mac's (IE: Arthur/John) death you would play as Arthur. (John/Jack.)
@@und3adcrows727 what would the epilogue be when rdr2 is straight after the massacre?
The not so smooth guy that would be so cool!!! I really hope they make another red dead redemption. RDR2 is such a beautiful game to play
But Arthur dies at the end of rdr2 unless he somehow comes back from the death
Sean Adam this will be the start of the gang, ending at blackwater
This is probably one of the best videos I've ever watched. I had chills the whole time. RDR2 is my favorite game and even I hadn't thought of half of the things you talked about. Like wow, I'm blown away. Amazing video!
I always thought I just skipped a cutscene and missed it...
Same-
I went exactly to the red dead redemption 2. And I thought that The Blackwater Massacre happened in Red dead Redemption.
Red dead redemption 1
@@miguelsoto7488 ?
The unraveling of Dutch would be so interesting. I completely fell in love with Arthur. I'd love to see more of him. Maybe he didn't really die? Maybe ....*cries*
Play RDR1. Dutch falls off a mountain to avoid capture by the B.O.I. There’s no way he survived falling off that mountain. He even has a makeshift grave at the bottom which you can only see from the top of Cochinay from the end of the cavern. Cochinay may not look like much in RDR2, but it’s a whole freaking snow-covered fortress in RDR1.
@@erikallen3804 i think she meant arthur, not dutch.
There is a way he won't get tuberculosis
@@timothywarren3748 really? I've played the campaign 6 times and that is impossible. You can't skip a story mission
This game has many endings than you realize you gotta have a pc to do it
I wish the game started in Blackwater and the first chapter and camp was set there
Would've been much better since the game started off slow.
chode appleseed where’s the fun and mystery in that though
@@jaywilliams4770 That's why there's DLC to tie it up, it shouldn't have to be a mystery since it seems so interesting and it's how Dutch firstly lost his mind.
@@normiesaredegeneratesthatn3331 the game won't have any story mode dlc thanks to take 2 who owns rockstar
@@slimretro2659 Yeah, sadly...
The fact that if it is true that Micah urged Dutch to shoot Heidi shows what Rockstar excelled at with Dutch, he is the same person at the beginning of the game that he is at the end, he just hides it well, but it gets harder for him as the game progresses
I like Arthur. Because he wasn’t just a big, strong, and dumb guy. He was also very intelligent
"Blackwater massacre"? I do one of those about every week in online mode.
They care about Blackwater when I do atleast 2 Saint Denis massacres (1000+ deaths) every week.
Did Arthur just describe the Strange Man from that side mission, "I Know You" at 4:52?
Yes, it was the strange man who was seen in Blackwater before the massacre.
Many theories confirm that the Strange Man is the Grim Reaper, so wherever he is, death will follow.
In the third part of the “I know You” mission, he is speaking with John at the place which will be his, Abigail’s and Uncle’s graves.
John shoots the strange man 3 times, the 4th bullet getting jammed. The three fired bullets represent John, Abigail and Uncle dying, the 4th one jamming is Jack being spared.
@@eldante616 Maybe The Strange Man played some part in the massacre. He probably are the one that set the gang up. My other theories is that Heidi McCourt is maybe part of the gang for a little while. But she set them up on the Ferry or Dutch thought she set them up which lead to Dutch killing her
no, he was literally talking about Trelawny. saying he’d heard a man described, but not mentioned by name, and to him it sounded like Trelawny, who the gang hadn’t heard from for months at he time (but he shows up again soon enough with information on where and by whom Sean is being kept, suggesting he wasn’t far from the gang and was possibly even watching them from a distance). it’s not like somebody literally said something about “a man similar to Trelawny”, Arthur decided on his own based on the description that it sounded like Trelawny. the Strange Man is unlike Trelawny in every way other than attire. their mannerisms and behavior are nothing alike, the Strange Man being some sort of higher being, perhaps a god or the grim reaper, and Trelawny being an elegant and eccentric conman and magician. unless they were only talking about appearance, it would be almost impossible to mistake one for the other. and Arthur said he heard talk of a man who sounded like Trelawny, not looked like him, leading me to believe it was a description of his actions and mannerisms and such, not his appearance. it was basically just him saying “i’ve heard Trelawny might be in the area”.
Samantha O'Boyle Is this the same Trelawny you can find near Rhodes in Red Dead Online?
@@brysonkuervers2570 yes, he’s a character in story mode
"We missed you. That's what happened."
The direct implication that Arthur is the moral backbone of the gang is great and brought up time and time again in the game.
He might be a robbing, killing, train-hijacking murder hobo on the run from the law - but he's not some bastard who gets off on the chaos.
He is written so well that you can emphasize with his moral decisions. Even in the side quests where (spoiler!)
he gets that old slaver's junk from his house, confronts him about it, and throws his ledger in the fire in front of him, the player obviously can kill this dude morally and without feeling bad or negative repercussions in the game.
I cranked that pistol out, considered it, then pointed it up and said aloud:
"Some people deserve to die for their sins. Not you. You deserve to live with it."
This was a fuckin optional stranger encounter. There is no benefit to the player or penalty for it. But even I - the player who has literally shot a random NPC dude in the street for making fun of my 'fit - knew that the best solution to a problem is not always a bullet.
No, that old slaver can die of disease or polio or exposure. My killing him now alleviates him from all the fun of being an outcast and Marr on society.
Anyways, that's why Dutch said "We didn't have you. That's what happened."
The implication that Arthur's input would have changed the outcome.
Go outside.
i had a lasso mod so i hung that guy from the tree behind his tent.
There is a benefit. I killed him and got a shit ton of honour. Like 1/4 of my bar lol. Also I agree with the person above.
What that statement tells me is that was his way of telling Arthur if he had been there during, he could've (possibly) talked Dutch out of it, especially killing that woman.
That and you can save a man's wife from being killed or worse when the gang is at Shady Belle just outside of Saint Denis
I was totally convinced Micah was after Dutch's money, and Dutch himself as well. I thought that that was what he was up to when he tried to coax Dutch to go back for the money at the end of the game, that he wanted to know where it was stored so that he could steal it and afterwards conveniently hand Dutch over to the Pinkertons earning himself a clean slate (possibly, I mean we all know how that turned out for John) and a nice extra sum of money as well. Or he DID actually idealize Dutch... honestly, I can't tell for sure half the time.
I don't really want to think of Micah as being a rat from the beginning, even though it's very likely. I mean, it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a gang of people, some of whom have known each other for decades, falls apart completely just because of one random boy who's been with them for what? A couple of months? A year? At least in the events of the game you can excuse it what with Dutch losing his mind and all that, but before Blackwater everything was supposed to be at least kind of okay. Mannn I want a RDR3 being another prequel so bad!
He definitely didn't idolize or care about Dutch, he just wanted someone good to be able to watch his back. When Dutch shoots him in the hip in the ending, he brushed it off like nothing and was getting ready to execute both John and Dutch afterwards.
While I hate Micah in the game, I love his character. I love hating him. I think he's a little more cunning than most people want to give him credit for. He sees the weakness in Dutch. He pokes at it from time to time to see where the tipping point is. You can see it a lot in his movements. As he's talking to Dutch he will slowly creep closer and closer until he sees Dutch recoil. At that point he will often raise his hands in a sort of mock surrender pose and slowly back away.
Arthur is a different story for him. He tries to use the same method on him but is rebuffed at every point. Micah knows how it would end if he and Arthur were to really square off (when he was healthy). He knows Arthur is better in a fight, even says so on a few occasions. After fully realizing it, he does everything he can to discredit Arthur and to make him look like a whiner and not worth having around. He would love nothing more than Dutch cutting Arthur loose.
Arthur is the only reason that the gang held together as long as it did. He was the sole voice of reason. The other big players in the gang didn't have the nerve to stand up and speak their minds. Even Hosea is backed down on several occasions and kind of tucks his tail between his legs.
It's funny how Dutch only has a 1000$ bounty while in real life you'd have a 5000$ bounty only for killing a hobo.
@@Murdokk00 Facts honestly.
Damn 37 people?
*_weak._*
I know right
We would have killed the whole town if I was involved
Yeah but realistic
37 people dead
That’s cute. Lemme just go to Saint Denis and start Vibe Checking.
More like the strawberry massacre, or the valentine massacre, or the braithwaite manner massacre, or the saint denis massacre
In the end,
It never was about the money.
It was with rockstar
Landon Ricketts: "I shot one of the outlaws on that Blackwater Ferry Massacre back in the day"
John Marston: "Huh I got shot by someone on the Blackwater Ferry Massacre back in the day"
'Insert pointing Spider-Man meme here'
Robbing bank in saint denis (last mission before guarma)
Bill - This is worse than Blackwater!!
A worse *situation*.
I'd love to see what went down on that boat from our online characters perspective. especially if we were the ones shooting at dutches gang.
I could see horley selling us as guns for hire to the pinkertons to get their favor & find the remaining people that could be involved with the murder of Jessica's husband.
they really need to change up the online story it's terrible atm
Honestly
This comment is so underrated and it probably will never be seen but if it is and rockstar does this I will loose it 😂
That would be mad !!!
Bro that will make our online character a legend, that will be very cool
Luke O'Toole great idea
Plot twist: Landon was the one who shot John, they just don't recognize each other.
That's probably the major plot line to rdr3 when they make the game about our beloved Mr. Ricketts.
That's actually what happenned, John didn't recognized Landon since he only saw young pictures of him and soon after the Blackwater massacre he left for Mexico and was probably dead, John was shot in the arm, he probably didn't saw the shooter. Landon saw John in his OG outfit and without a scare. The next time he sees him is 12 years later and has a brand new outfit and a scare on his face. That's heavily suggested in both game that it was Landon that shot John.
Only if Landon wanted to shoot someone, they'd be dead. He's the first dude to have dead eye.
@@herredward9277 that is only a speculated scenario, and should not be taken seriously.
@@FormulaVase-kp3dc no it happend
I wsaw
Yeah, I kind of figured that Micah was a rat from the very beginning when I finished the game. I started piecing bits together and was like, "What if Micah was just a UC for the Pinkertons?
I knew he was crazy from the start, but I honestly didn't expect him to be a rat. I really wasn't playing the game correctly, not putting attention to details, until Arthur died. When Arthur died I got devastated inside, and it makes me want to play again and put more attention to those tiny details.
I would love a RDR3 that's a prequel to this prequel, where you play as the Callander Boys (alternating between them like GTAV) & live everything up to the events in Blackwater. Their perspective would be great & their deaths lead perfectly into Arthur's arch.
Yeah they are the only ones that we dont know about
I dont know if I can handle anymore death of characters i love, mate. Lmao.
Red dead redemption 7: Arthur is born and has to be born.
@@BigSmartCo. RDR 8: Play as Arthurs father and the whole game is fucking his wife
11:02 He's not mourning, he's getting ready to pee.
What if Mac was never executed by Agent Milton?
Agent Milton has been shown to be a stone hearted killer, so lying about the whereabouts of Mac Callender would not be a difficult sin for Milton to commit. Perhaps Milton didn't want the gang to look for Mac since he could have been a strong and valuable asset to the gang.
The reason I'm saying this is it would be an absolute beautiful ending to the Red Dead Redemption (Trilogy?) Series if we were given the opportunity to play all the events leading up to the Blackwater Massacre as Mac. The difference being Mac lives, and perhaps you end up playing as somebody else (too lazy and tired to make suggestions on who) within the year 1904, which would be right between the end of RDR2 and the Epilogue.
I would love to hear everyone else's thoughts about this.
Except for those coming to talk shit I'm leaving you with a preemptive "fuck off".
you have my like
I like that idea
Mac is definitely a good opportunity, considering he's the only Van Der Linde gang member we don't actually see die, or find evidence of his death, due to the fact we don't see his death, he could be used to further a storyline, e.g. he goes on a quest to find his old gang, and goes to each camp but the gangs moved to the next area, and as he goes along sees graves, Jenny, Davey, Sean, Hosea and Lenny as the story progresses, leading to Arthur's at the end and a realisation that the gang's over, and he goes on a revenge quest against Pinkerton leaders in response.
Exactly! I have a comment floating around here somewhere explaining why. So we should play as Mac from the Northern Grizzlies to Blackwater massacre.
I think the next red dead will have nothing to do with Dutch’s gang. Knowing rockstar that makes a lot of sense to me.
i was so shook when i first beat the game and arthur dies. everyone either left out of fear, or to protect others and he faced micah and dutch alone...a real badass. made john have the same hair and beard cut to honor the badass journey that was the game
“Why does this bloke go and cry at random graves” 😂😂😂🤣
8:40 well dutch is described as a character that contradicts his own philosophy and himself quite often. Considering that, makes sense that Dutch would shoot that girl. He contradicts himself all the time; he didn’t have much time to think, so he just did it anyway. And it definitely doesn’t help that Micah was supposedly urging him to do it.
8:40-I think it was more that Dutch was negatively influenced by Micah.
"We missed you" I think Arthur was always a bit of a moral anchor for Dutch. Without him Micah got in his ear and Dutch shot the girl