If I had a dollar for each time the Electric Viking said there was some game-changing battery technology breakthrough I would be almost as rich as Elon Musk.
Oh, give him a break. He needs to make moneysomehow and putting a "game changer" tag on anything Tesla "does" helps lot of us to watch him! Luckily he missed on "THIS GROUNDBREAKING NEW PLASTIC BATTERY WILL DISRUPT THE WHOLE INDUSTRY!!"
I just read the comments and laugh my rear off -- I wouldn't waste one minute watching any of this nonsense. I fully expect that we have a Neuralink beta tester here.
LiFePO4 cell chemistry has been around for over 15 years Sir. As an engineer, I have designed such cells into several Telematic and portable products. All you said about BEV adoption appears true. The great research focus is to overcome their drawbacks. Mainly gassing-causing-swelling at temperature and dendrite accumulation. I expect the breakthroughs have already been made but moving such tweaking into mass production is the main hold-up. I have watched your video link relating to Shanna's illness, and the consequent difficulties you and your family face. A few comments about progress as a request from one YT viewer who cares, to the producer would be most welcome. Keep on trukin' Sir.
The most significant battery breakthrough in recent history happened last year. Widespread adoption of LFP battery chemistries is already changing the game at massive scale. Too few people are talking about this! Most people still think all BEV batteries have cobalt mined by children in the DRC, in addition to other innacurately promoted and perceived environmental evils.
Viking makes no mention of the sustainability and ethics of manganese. Tesla is generally very cognizant of these issues so I wonder what these particulars are.
DRC children sacrifices are the reason for the technology revolution in the world. Sad but true. The US and France destabilise the country for free minerals. Cellphones would be expensive if minerals like Tin, Tantalum, tungsten were not blood minerals from DRC
"By the end of the decade this battery will be dominant" ? At the current pace of battery innovation, that battery will be replaced at least 3 times by the end of the decade.
He's right. You don't see changing the dominant battery chemistry type every few years. Case in point: I leased my first EV in 2016, when the salesman correctly steard me away from buying it: just laese this tech for now, because on three years you'll get way better car. I was happy to return the car. But there wasn't much to choose from and that was already 4 years ago. I'd be happy if a new battery chem would be established, it won't be around for only shortly a few years.
@@sfuchs Seriously. The leaps people expect are happening in labs, but they dont really happen at the consumer level, except when price reduction matches the leap. It takes a lot to find the proper price to innovation ratio, get it approved and have development start at large scale.
I want to hear about advanced batteries that are now being mass produced, not something down the road. I want to hear about batteries that are in production made for every EV. Something like going to the auto parts store and picking up a replacement battery for my Leaf.
1. tesla hasnt been making batteries 5 years. 2. Manganese will replace the cobalt, but it doesn't double the capacity or reduce weight. 3. on battery day three years ago the major upgrade promised was SILICON cathodes. 4. You also misunderstand LiFePo4 which likes topped to 100% without damaging the cells like L-ion batteries. Lithium ions dont like discharged past 10% or charged past 90%. Repeated over/undercharging damages them and you have LESS RANGE than LiFePo4 because of that. The energy density numbers are deceptive for that reason.
I like how every statement of fact was attributed to who said it. Raises it from opinion fluff to somethng to take to the bank. This looks like the battery I'll buy for my house when I go off grid in 5 years.
I'm waiting Tesla to bring LFP based batteries to AWD long-range 3 and Y in Europe. When that happens, I'm in and my Toyota Hybrid will find a new home. 70 kWh battery would be sufficient. It would be between Standard range 60 and long-range 77, but with possibility to charge to 100%, which would make it more interesting for me than the 77kWh NCA battery, and also much more safe.
Did i miss something? I am wondering how many charge / discharge cycles this battery claims to have. We also need a battery that will outlast the vehicle itself.
They do already. Heard of the 1 million mile tesla operating between Vegas airport and the casinos. Lots of body work and tyre replacements, but same battery and motors. EV tec is moving much faster that the ICE industry ever did.
I dont know bud. Sort of a staple for alot of different businesses or products is "planned obsolescence" that is how they keep dinging your wallet over and over again. But im with ya...it would be nice. I read somewhere that it would cost $20k or so to replace the battery on a tesla.
IMO, if there's one thing that can truly disrupt the entire automobile industry, that would be the use of dry electrode technology for both the anode and cathode. Normal cathode and anode production uses large amounts of solvent and critically, tremendous amounts of energy. Once Tesla's battery division finally gets the dry cathode process up and running, we'll see production efficiency explode because of the much much lower energy consumption required for making dry electrodes.
@5:30 regardless of the chemistry, for a 120kWh battery pack to give a 1,000km range, the car would use 120Wh/km. This is about the efficiciency of the car, not the energy density of the battery. The rest of the video suggests that it is the energy density that has improved which means you potentially could get a 200kWh battery in the space and/or weight of a conventional 120kWh battery pack. To put it another way, if a car uses 200Wh/km, it will need 200kWh of battery power to travel 1,000km. This technology may very well make that small, light, and affordable, but it's still a 200kWh battery.
Sam, increased energy density means a battery of a particular size and weight will store more kWh, not less. A smaller battery can store the same charge as today' large and heavy packs. Lower weight and increased kWh capacity will result in increased range.
Only real new battery existing in EV market now is Li's Auto car. Chinese bloggers have test-driven it. As the auto company claims 1000 km range CLTC on 140 kw 3rd gen CLTC battery. The real driven test until car sudden died out is 930 km in China.
The range offered by a battery is not to do with its chemistry but it’s capacity in kWh and the efficiency of the vehicle to which it is fitted. For example the advert for the battery boasts 1000km (600 miles) for a 140kWh battery. This equates to about 4.28 miles per kWh which is about what Tesla model 3 does (Tesla offers about 315 miles for 78kWh). The ‘chemistry’ is, however, responsible for longevity (number of charge/discharge cycles), rate of charging and discharging (maximum power output) and fire safety.
You never talked about durability. Depending on the person, I believe Durability may be more important than charging time. Not always, but for suburban commuters, we just want a car which will go 300kMiles without any major repairs. Replacing a battery is a totaling event for an EV.
As you've emphasized, 300k miles of durability is a basic requirement for the global non-commercial vehicle market. Given the typical usage of today's EVs with at home slow-charging to 80% and only occasional fast-charging to 80% during long-distance travel, EV batteries are already lasting more than 300k miles.
You are absolutely right! The biggest fear for EV and hybrid owners is purchasing a new battery pack. I have owned three hybrid vehicles and continuously sell them when the battery warranty expires, just as a precaution.
According to Gotion Hitech, its LMFP is a 2 million km battery. It says: "Astroinno L600 LMFP cell achieves 240 Wh/kg in gravimetric energy density and 525Wh/L for volumetric energy density. It can achieve more than 4,000 cycles at room temperature and 1800 cycles at high temperature, easily achieves 18 minutes of fast charging, and passes all safety tests." From what Gotion is saying, its LMFP is similar to LFP in terms of cycle life, but it degrades faster in heat, so it will need better thermal management than LFP, but it degrades slower than NMC and NCA, so definitely an improvement in the lifespan compared to most Western EVs. With the way that battery prices are falling, having to replace the battery in 12-15 years may not be nearly as expensive has you think, but it is definitely better to have a battery that is designed to outlast the life of the car. I think that the standard lifespan of the new LFP and LMFP EVs is going to be over 500k miles, since their motors and batteries last so long and they require so little maintenance. It wouldn't surprise me if the Aptera becomes a million mile vehicle, since its carbon body will never rust, and it is modular, so its major components can be easily replaced. If a motor fails, you just replace the wheel. I can't wait for more EVs to be designed like the Aptera.
The average new car buyer in the US keeps the new car for three years. Three years. Average annual mileage in the US is 13,500. It would take over twenty years of that to go 300,000 miles. That’s just not how most people buy cars.
Your focus here is rightly on volumetric capacity and cost, however it still remains critical to track charging c-rate, because charging for twice as long half the time is not progress
Hey viking, it's getting disturbing because there's the new sodiumion ferro phosphate, the old lithiumion ferro phosphate and now another Manganese lithiumion (ferro?) phosphate. They all need to be compared over again. You can do that for us? Grtz from Holland
Comparisons of moving targets is hard - and only relevant to the time of the comparisons. And... at what stage of development must each sample be, and how do you access them at that stage?
240 Wh/kg is about half of what Amprius has developed but I'm sure the price is also half or even less. I like the options of Sodium Ion, LMFP (and LFP - if anyone bothers with that chemistry after this) batteries, super-energy dense ones like Amprius and some that contain sulfur, and flow batteries (my favorite) for energy storage (used batteries too). All great news!
BYD has started selling cars with Sodium Battery, which is cheaper and more friendly to the environment. It has less energy density, but fine for shorter range city driving.
This fits nicely into mining nodules from the sea bottom. They are called Manganese nodules because this is the main (but not the only) mineral in these nodules.
you keep coming up on search results, but now i'm a fan of you and your videos. the downside is, you now make me want to wait for newer EV tech to come out before buying a car. i was looking and trying to learn on what car to buy now. but dang it, now i want to wait for a car with this. downside is if i wait too long, all my countries tax credits might stop.
Come on, cut to the chase & tell what it is.----Over 3 minutes in & still fencing around it............................................................................................................................
TH-cam should have the option to thumbs down a video and click in the option why you didn't like the video, so the creator and everyone else knows how people perceived the video, this would help a lot to both users and creators to retroaliment.
@@flashoflight8160: Yes. Otherwise I have to give up on them, as I get more tired of having my time mostly wasted. That could be a good thing for AI to do, since it just has to be decent, not precise. Just SCREENING lots of information re news, internet content providers, etc. When it can do it well and rather consistently and conveniently, I'll be interested.
@@danielmurogonzalez1911 it is quite simple to be honest. Timestamp videos in the comments and give commentary so it can be thumbed up to the top. 🤷🏾♂️
L(M)FP indeed is a game changer and will soon take over from NCM/NCA chemistry. Higher energy density than LFP, lower fore risk than NCM, more cycle life than NCM/NCA and similar low cost as LFP.
Good to see progress, baby steps I'd say. Like going from ferro cassete tapes to extra ferro, not yet chrome, in the 70-80's. Let this new tech cure and mature for a while and we'll see 3000 km @ 1/3 weight and charge time "soon"
On my way back from commifornia I notice a Tesla sitting on the side of the road with the emergency lights on. It made me think, when you accidently run out of gas you can just hike over to nearest gas station and buy a gallon of gas to be able to drive back to the gas station. What do you do if your electric car runs out of juice?????🤔
@@wickedleeloopy2115 model y owner here. Yes I would get the g6 over model y. Tesla has many quality control issues until now and my new car already seen Tesla service centers for 2 times in 1 month. There are many Tesla fanboys who don’t even own one and don’t know what they are talking about like the guy in the video
@@tonypaca3015 Yes, but I will say this in my 35 years of owning and driving vehicles. Never ever purchase the first year model of any vehicle, whether it be conventional or electric. Let someone else work out the bugs and defects, cause if it's the models first year there will be plenty of them.
@@Ryan-ff2db that is true. But I myself would still get the xpeng g6 over my model y. I own this car for 1 month and it’s been in 2 different Tesla service centers for 2 weeks already. I don’t think I can get anything worse than that lol. My experience is totally ruined
240 Wh/kg is nothing exceptional, on par with current NMC. CATL is already achieving up to 500 Wh/kg... so, I don't see Gotion taking any future market... except if production cost is really really low. And : NO, I don't believe that a 5% lower cost will make Gotion capable to compete for the battery crown. I am much more believing that the winner will be the company achieving the highest energy density, because in the end, its all about mass production bringing costs down... Today the podium for the highest energy density on a production line goes to : CATL ! Good luck to Gotion, they will need some.
Abundant and reliable charging infrastructure for those who need to do a long trip is still more important than having a huge range that most people will never need, but it is useful to have cheaper and smaller batteries that allow for more time before changing is needed for all the folks who for whatever reason cannot just plug the car in a free charger every day. Also, it makes it easier to make fun of the idiots who obsess over range: 1000km is over 600 miles, even if you are among the rare people who need to drive 60 miles each day that means you only need to charge once every ten days. In the unlikely case if you had to do a long road trip and lived in Germany where you can drive 150mph on autobahns so it would take "only" four hours to empty the battery, driving at high speeds like that is extremely stressing and four hours is long enough that your passengers will force you to stop for a break even if you want to risk getting a heart attack from sitting so long. Anyone who is not driving a long haul semi but complains that EVs do not have enough range for their daily driving is either lying, doing some kind of illegal job like smuggling drugs through back roads so they can't stop at chargers because they have cameras, or is some kind of special case that applies to less than one person in a million and therefore irrelevant to any discussion about regular cars and drivers.
There are no gas stations near me either. But there are always some on the way to where I’m going, if its any distance away. Same with charging stations, if you cant charge at home.
240 wh/kg is the same as Tesla NCA 2170s from 2018. It is impressive for a low cost battery, but it isn't an energy density that is unattainable by current high nickel battery chemistries. This is a tech for cheaper high volume products, which is more disruptive, but it isn't quite game changing for me. We need both cheap and high performance batteries to completely replace fossil fuels, and unfortunately the heaviest polluters require the highest performance batteries such as farm equipment, ships, and semi trucks.
By high performance, I assume you mean more capacity for same weight and volume. I personally think this concern is a bit overblown. The real reason people have so much range anxiety is not because their car can store 200 miles per full charge instead of 400 miles. It is mainly because they don't have an EV charging network similar to gas stations, and because the charge time takes much longer than filling gas.
Electric Viking, you do good work. Don’t let these detractors get under your skin. ❤I see you are still in Singapore. I hope your wife is feeling better.
The claim was based on its dimensional size not the Wh/kg or Wh/litre. The Maxwell dry coating was going to improve to about 300Wh/kg from ~250Wh/kg then hopefully to 500Wh/kg which is 100% improvement or x2 better.
@@Yanquetino I think Tesla bought Maxwell because they evaluated its batteries. That gave credence to Maxwell's claim. I think Tesla would have extensively tested the prototype dry electrode batteries before investing. Musk said something like he wasn't interested in people telling Tesla that they had better batteries, he wanted battery prototypes to test. I had the same questions when I first saw the X5 as to what they meant. At the time I concluded that they meant size because the new battery was based on the Maxwell dry coating method. And when you calculate at the volume of the 4680 cells vs the old you could see they would have ~5X the energy due to volume and slight increase of Wh/Litre (~250 to ~300). I'm too lazy to calculate now but you can (at the time I did rough calculations). I think you can find evaluations of the 4680 vs 2170 on TH-cam telling all the maths. People will have tested and worked out the Wh/kg and compared. I think the problem Tesla battery advancements have been slow has been the consistency of mass production. But that is typical in mass manufacturing. The good news is they are constantly improving. Personally I think Musk should create a competition within the USA (or world) universities to develop the best batteries to speed things up.
I'll believe it when I see it. The 4680 was meant to be a breakthrough battery. turns out it's pretty crap. same if not more weight due to thicker walls, less energy dense, higher cobalt.
I currently use LFP batteries in multiple applications and can vouch for there lightness and safety. They really take a beating compared to lead acid and spiral wound sealed lead acid. Can't wait to see these new batteries.
@@jamescollins3647 Yes, starting battery, Deep cycle, electric mower, powertools you name it. In some cases, the BMS is the limiting factor but there are ways around it.
@@jamescollins3647 Not driving the vehicle forward, no. The model 3 Tesla's are using them. I don't know how many models in Australia have them but they are phasing out the lithium ion for LFP atm.
It won’t be long and there will be another Battery Breakthrough. This is Good. A Cheaper higher density Battery will be needed to achieve this zero emissions goal.
Hey Dave; yes hydrogen can it then becomes a question how we get it. There are a number of claimed breakthroughs; but no one is producing very much green hydrogen. There is some yellow being made which is a byproduct of industrial functions. Honestly if this is so critical - we should be doing massive carpooling now and significantly cut CO2 Now while also saving time and money; we aren't. Big Green advocates are flying around in private jets, not doing virtual presentations - So I conclude this isn't a crisis it is a sales pitch.
My main concern is it could mean that China has the monolopy of the battery market unless the likes of LG, Samsung and Panasonic (used by tesla) can come up with something better. I guess the upside is its going to force more innovation from the competitors. Its a huge surprise what CATL have come up with in a short space of time.
I've read that Tesla is already using BYD batteries. I'm a little confused as to what's going on. Doesn't Tesla + Panasonic have a gigafactory for batteries already?
@@ChickensAndGardening yes they do. I didn't know BYD actually made their own batteries too. Tesla is using CATL batteries in their Chinese made teslas, but I think that they will still be using Panasonic in gigafactory Texas, as they are planning to expand that factory even more. I wouldn't be surprised if they have their own battery chemistry up their sleeves.
the main concern with china is that their economy is collapsing, factories won't hire anyone over 35, and the young generation doesn't want to work. then you have the immanent demographic collapse, two entire provinces bankrupt, and the other provinces are having to stop paying salaries sometimes to public servants or pay very late (months late in some cases) just to make interest payments on their loans. The more the world decouples from china the worse things are economically for china. So china isn't going to have a monopoly over anything any time soon. Other countries have the rare earths the world economy needs now, so that card is can't be played for them anymore. Knowing this from a business pov is good intel. That means you can de-risk your business and manufacturing ventures to something that will not cause your company to lose large sums of money because of manufacturing delays.
Viking, thanks for your previous coverage of the batteries by Magnis Energy, who also use Manganese (but no Iron). No Nickel or Cobalt either. Magnis also has a deal to supply graphite anode material to Tesla. They are nearing UN38.3 safety certification for shipping. And, shares are still really cheap, pending first revenue. Just sayin' !
Now it is perhaps not so common to have very fast chargers. Not even in Norway. There is a normal speed of 50 kW on many chargers. Surely at least 230 kw is needed for it to be as little as 18 minutes? maybe it is also required that the car has a 600 V system?
If Iron Phosphate is such a good battery, then why is the warranty shorter for those batteries in Tesla? 100,000 miles for LFP vs 120000 for NCA.... Something doesn't add up. We are told these batteries will last longer, yet the warranty is shorter.... Things that should make you go hmmmm If all the marketing lined up with the warranty it might be more believable. If these batteries are so great then let's see a 200,000 mile warranty on them. Why not? We are told they are just that good.
LFP batteries by CATL expected life 1,200,000 miles. What is the expected life in miles of the LFPM? Concerning battery life in million mile Plus range, that eliminates consumer fear of expensive battery replacement. Also, for high use cases such as police cars and Uber, the life cycle cost of EVs is about $100,000 cheaper over 12 years including purchase price, fuel and maintenance (12 year life of the car, not 4 years for gas).
Isn't Amprius silicone anode mfg across the street from Fremont factory? Must be hard to come up with content and a thumbnail to your video to make you click.
Let's be clear here. A kWh is a kWh as far as I know. Battery chemestry cannot give you significantly more range per kWh I'm assuming. What it can do is make the battery pack significanly lighter to allow for more range that way. Whether that makes enough of a difference to result in a normal car that can do 500-600mk with a 50kWh battery? Seems a little unlikely but it would be great. What would be cool enough if if it would allow 500-600km of range in the same space of a battery that would previously allow only 300-400km of rqnge. That would be game changing already.
Maybe, I believe, battery of the century, best battery ever, could be... you never know. Why are almost al YT titles click-bait now? On nearly every topic.
Sounds fantastic, but the long-term environmental impact still needs to be considered. We still need to look at the environmental issues where current-generation battery packs have failed. Are the car makers going to support the repair of the batteries so they are not replaced after minor damage to the pack? What is the CO2 hit for manufacturing? Support for retrofitting new technology packs to existing electric cars to reduce the CO2 of the manufacturer of the car itself and to allower lower income people to use electric vehicles? Proper support for recycling where repair is not viable or possible or batteries become obsolete. Unfortunately, I do not trust car makers to do any of the above.
One possible factor here is that some of the Chinese companies are likely to have used some of Tesla's patents. If they did then Tesla would be allowed to use their tech as well on anything that Tesla falls behind on.
There are already Korean cars that claim to be able to charge from 10 to 80% in 18 minutes. But of course very fast chargers are required for that and the battery is heated
Remember at Tesla Investor Day they said motors would come down to $1000 and rare earth minerals would be eliminated. So there is a lot more in the secret sauce from Tesla to go from a motor costing $2500 down to $1000 than what was mentioned here.
Using miles requires specifying many other variables such was weight of the vehicle, aerodynamic efficiency, efficiency of the drivetrain, tires, etc. Other than weight, these are unrelated to the battery.
The Chinese are as bad as P.T. Barnum! Everything they do it the biggest and the best and revolutionary, ground breaking, earth shattering, game changer, etc.🎉😂
Electric Viking…I catch your video’s almost routinely on my drive too and from work. I work in finance and your honest information is so helpful. As battery tech is often something you discuss have you ever looked into the little US comapny called Amprius? They are using a silicon/Carbon v combination to store the lithium and the carbon/silicon nano tubes prevent the problematic expansion that silicon alone has in batteries? Heard about it from Munro Live and was curious your thoughts.
If I had a dollar for each time the Electric Viking said there was some game-changing battery technology breakthrough I would be almost as rich as Elon Musk.
Oh, give him a break. He needs to make moneysomehow and putting a "game changer" tag on anything Tesla "does" helps lot of us to watch him! Luckily he missed on "THIS GROUNDBREAKING NEW PLASTIC BATTERY WILL DISRUPT THE WHOLE INDUSTRY!!"
If I've told you once, I've told you 99 million times. Stop exaggerating! 😆
I just read the comments and laugh my rear off -- I wouldn't waste one minute watching any of this nonsense. I fully expect that we have a Neuralink beta tester here.
speaking of batteries and the Electric Viking... is it just me, or does it look like he's done a lot of illegal drugs for a very long time? LOL.
Typical youtubers 😂
LiFePO4 cell chemistry has been around for over 15 years Sir. As an engineer, I have designed such cells into several Telematic and portable products. All you said about BEV adoption appears true. The great research focus is to overcome their drawbacks. Mainly gassing-causing-swelling at temperature and dendrite accumulation. I expect the breakthroughs have already been made but moving such tweaking into mass production is the main hold-up.
I have watched your video link relating to Shanna's illness, and the consequent difficulties you and your family face. A few comments about progress as a request from one YT viewer who cares, to the producer would be most welcome. Keep on trukin' Sir.
The most significant battery breakthrough in recent history happened last year. Widespread adoption of LFP battery chemistries is already changing the game at massive scale. Too few people are talking about this! Most people still think all BEV batteries have cobalt mined by children in the DRC, in addition to other innacurately promoted and perceived environmental evils.
yet the LFP warranty is shorter than the NCA batteries in Tesla? Anyone asking why?
Viking makes no mention of the sustainability and ethics of manganese. Tesla is generally very cognizant of these issues so I wonder what these particulars are.
@@terrulian Good observation. I think we need to be asking a lot more questions and to become very observant. There is a lot of marketing going on.
DRC children sacrifices are the reason for the technology revolution in the world. Sad but true. The US and France destabilise the country for free minerals. Cellphones would be expensive if minerals like Tin, Tantalum, tungsten were not blood minerals from DRC
@@terrulian 1700 times as much manganese than lithium on the World. All ready world production is 18 million tonnes per year.
"By the end of the decade this battery will be dominant" ?
At the current pace of battery innovation, that battery will be replaced at least 3 times by the end of the decade.
👍👍
lol, That's actually very likely.
He's right. You don't see changing the dominant battery chemistry type every few years.
Case in point: I leased my first EV in 2016, when the salesman correctly steard me away from buying it: just laese this tech for now, because on three years you'll get way better car.
I was happy to return the car. But there wasn't much to choose from and that was already 4 years ago.
I'd be happy if a new battery chem would be established, it won't be around for only shortly a few years.
@@sfuchs Seriously. The leaps people expect are happening in labs, but they dont really happen at the consumer level, except when price reduction matches the leap. It takes a lot to find the proper price to innovation ratio, get it approved and have development start at large scale.
@@haydenschulze2198 Microsoft and Apple might be able to shed more light on the bottle necks that you are referring to.
I want to hear about advanced batteries that are now being mass produced, not something down the road.
I want to hear about batteries that are in production made for every EV. Something like going to the auto parts store and picking up a replacement battery for my Leaf.
All scam
Exactly I'm looking for a future battery replacement for my Nissan Leaf as well. Do not want to ever buy another car in my life.
Scientists make th discovery investment makes it happen @ scale
1. tesla hasnt been making batteries 5 years.
2. Manganese will replace the cobalt, but it doesn't double the capacity or reduce weight.
3. on battery day three years ago the major upgrade promised was SILICON cathodes.
4. You also misunderstand LiFePo4 which likes topped to 100% without damaging the cells like L-ion batteries.
Lithium ions dont like discharged past 10% or charged past 90%. Repeated over/undercharging damages them and you have LESS RANGE than LiFePo4 because of that. The energy density numbers are deceptive for that reason.
It was sodium last week
Ikr...? the "scam" now changes from week to week.
Poop next week.
I like how every statement of fact was attributed to who said it. Raises it from opinion fluff to somethng to take to the bank. This looks like the battery I'll buy for my house when I go off grid in 5 years.
I'm waiting Tesla to bring LFP based batteries to AWD long-range 3 and Y in Europe. When that happens, I'm in and my Toyota Hybrid will find a new home. 70 kWh battery would be sufficient. It would be between Standard range 60 and long-range 77, but with possibility to charge to 100%, which would make it more interesting for me than the 77kWh NCA battery, and also much more safe.
Did i miss something? I am wondering how many charge / discharge cycles this battery claims to have. We also need a battery that will outlast the vehicle itself.
They do already. Heard of the 1 million mile tesla operating between Vegas airport and the casinos. Lots of body work and tyre replacements, but same battery and motors. EV tec is moving much faster that the ICE industry ever did.
I dont know bud. Sort of a staple for alot of different businesses or products is "planned obsolescence" that is how they keep dinging your wallet over and over again. But im with ya...it would be nice. I read somewhere that it would cost $20k or so to replace the battery on a tesla.
KW or Watts: Power.
KWh (kilowatt hour) or Wh (watt hour): Energy.
Very important distinction. Confusing when you mix them up.
An LMFP combined with the Phoenix tech battery heating to give 5 min full charging along with 600 mile range would be nice.
5 min charging is unnecessary
@@michelangelobuonarroti916 I give you my absolute assurance that, it batteries took 6 mins to charge, people would be begging for 5.
Takes me longer than that to fill up my truck.
@@Pneuma40 And don't you wish it didn't?
EV charging speeds need to be 10 minutes or less, in order to get apartment dwellers to buy EVs.
LFP is great today. LMFP is moving up market (higher performance) and will eat NMC/NCA market share. SIB is moving down market for lowest $/kWh.
How well do they work at low temperatures?
IMO, if there's one thing that can truly disrupt the entire automobile industry, that would be the use of dry electrode technology for both the anode and cathode.
Normal cathode and anode production uses large amounts of solvent and critically, tremendous amounts of energy.
Once Tesla's battery division finally gets the dry cathode process up and running, we'll see production efficiency explode because of the much much lower energy consumption required for making dry electrodes.
@5:30 regardless of the chemistry, for a 120kWh battery pack to give a 1,000km range, the car would use 120Wh/km. This is about the efficiciency of the car, not the energy density of the battery. The rest of the video suggests that it is the energy density that has improved which means you potentially could get a 200kWh battery in the space and/or weight of a conventional 120kWh battery pack. To put it another way, if a car uses 200Wh/km, it will need 200kWh of battery power to travel 1,000km. This technology may very well make that small, light, and affordable, but it's still a 200kWh battery.
What is the cold weather performance for those of us that live in the northern spaces (think Canada or North Dakota)?
Sam, increased energy density means a battery of a particular size and weight will store more kWh, not less. A smaller battery can store the same charge as today' large and heavy packs. Lower weight and increased kWh capacity will result in increased range.
Great comment ty
Only real new battery existing in EV market now is Li's Auto car. Chinese bloggers have test-driven it. As the auto company claims 1000 km range CLTC on 140 kw 3rd gen CLTC battery.
The real driven test until car sudden died out is 930 km in China.
You idiot that a hybrid car where the engine acts as a generator for the battery 😅😂😂😂😂
The range offered by a battery is not to do with its chemistry but it’s capacity in kWh and the efficiency of the vehicle to which it is fitted. For example the advert for the battery boasts 1000km (600 miles) for a 140kWh battery. This equates to about 4.28 miles per kWh which is about what Tesla model 3 does (Tesla offers about 315 miles for 78kWh). The ‘chemistry’ is, however, responsible for longevity (number of charge/discharge cycles), rate of charging and discharging (maximum power output) and fire safety.
But energy density or volumetric energy density says how many kwh you can stuff in a car.
RETIRED, 79, FREEDOM, USAF, VFW. THANK VIKING, HOPE MY 2024 CYBER TRUCK HAS LMFP., 400 MILE RANGE, 140 KWH.
I thought you said salt batteries would be the best
😂
For stationary storage...definately
salt was last weeks "game changer"...
Air is what we must strive for.
Thanks for another great video. Just wanted to send you positives vibes and hope for some good news on the health side soon!!!
You never talked about durability. Depending on the person, I believe Durability may be more important than charging time. Not always, but for suburban commuters, we just want a car which will go 300kMiles without any major repairs. Replacing a battery is a totaling event for an EV.
As you've emphasized, 300k miles of durability is a basic requirement for the global non-commercial vehicle market. Given the typical usage of today's EVs with at home slow-charging to 80% and only occasional fast-charging to 80% during long-distance travel, EV batteries are already lasting more than 300k miles.
You are absolutely right! The biggest fear for EV and hybrid owners is purchasing a new battery pack. I have owned three hybrid vehicles and continuously sell them when the battery warranty expires, just as a precaution.
According to Gotion Hitech, its LMFP is a 2 million km battery. It says: "Astroinno L600 LMFP cell achieves 240 Wh/kg in gravimetric energy density and 525Wh/L for volumetric energy density. It can achieve more than 4,000 cycles at room temperature and 1800 cycles at high temperature, easily achieves 18 minutes of fast charging, and passes all safety tests."
From what Gotion is saying, its LMFP is similar to LFP in terms of cycle life, but it degrades faster in heat, so it will need better thermal management than LFP, but it degrades slower than NMC and NCA, so definitely an improvement in the lifespan compared to most Western EVs.
With the way that battery prices are falling, having to replace the battery in 12-15 years may not be nearly as expensive has you think, but it is definitely better to have a battery that is designed to outlast the life of the car. I think that the standard lifespan of the new LFP and LMFP EVs is going to be over 500k miles, since their motors and batteries last so long and they require so little maintenance.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Aptera becomes a million mile vehicle, since its carbon body will never rust, and it is modular, so its major components can be easily replaced. If a motor fails, you just replace the wheel. I can't wait for more EVs to be designed like the Aptera.
@@greggrant4614 nah I want to charge it go 100 percent I hate the faff
The average new car buyer in the US keeps the new car for three years. Three years. Average annual mileage in the US is 13,500. It would take over twenty years of that to go 300,000 miles. That’s just not how most people buy cars.
Your focus here is rightly on volumetric capacity and cost, however it still remains critical to track charging c-rate, because charging for twice as long half the time is not progress
GM’s Ultium packs are chemistry and cell agnostic. Built also modularly so that you don’t have to scrap the whole pack if a few cells go out.
Can this battery be used in power walls and or power stations
Station them at windows. Then you get power windows. Although the software seems to be needing an upgrade.
Hey viking, it's getting disturbing because there's the new sodiumion ferro phosphate, the old lithiumion ferro phosphate and now another Manganese lithiumion (ferro?) phosphate. They all need to be compared over again. You can do that for us? Grtz from Holland
Comparisons of moving targets is hard - and only relevant to the time of the comparisons.
And... at what stage of development must each sample be, and how do you access them at that stage?
240 Wh/kg is about half of what Amprius has developed but I'm sure the price is also half or even less. I like the options of Sodium Ion, LMFP (and LFP - if anyone bothers with that chemistry after this) batteries, super-energy dense ones like Amprius and some that contain sulfur, and flow batteries (my favorite) for energy storage (used batteries too). All great news!
Sand batteries flywheel batteries
BYD cars are popular on the internet - not for a good reason though. hope they sort out the safety issues...
What is LMFP dendritic issues??? How much longer charging life beyond Lfp batteries??? All talk?
BYD has started selling cars with Sodium Battery, which is cheaper and more friendly to the environment. It has less energy density, but fine for shorter range city driving.
This fits nicely into mining nodules from the sea bottom. They are called Manganese nodules because this is the main (but not the only) mineral in these nodules.
you keep coming up on search results, but now i'm a fan of you and your videos.
the downside is, you now make me want to wait for newer EV tech to come out before buying a car. i was looking and trying to learn on what car to buy now. but dang it, now i want to wait for a car with this. downside is if i wait too long, all my countries tax credits might stop.
Sam, over the last decade I take a shot every time i hear or read a news story containing the words "new battery breakthrough". #BATTERYDRINKINGGAME
Decade! Rookie. This crap has been going on for 100+ years
@@be_excellent_to_each_other I fell off the wagon.
Doesn't change the fact that batteries are very heavy , non-linear time and energy intensive re-energisation units. Good luck with electric cars.
Should I buy a solterra, knowing that it takes forever to charge but anyway 99% it will be charged in the evening at home ?
A month ago he was saying sodium is the future.
Come on, cut to the chase & tell what it is.----Over 3 minutes in & still fencing around it............................................................................................................................
We need AI to lower the rank of content creators that talk in circles to extend videos instead of providing truly new content upfront.
TH-cam should have the option to thumbs down a video and click in the option why you didn't like the video, so the creator and everyone else knows how people perceived the video, this would help a lot to both users and creators to retroaliment.
I agree, I give up at 6 minutes. Sam didn't have a good day today.
@@flashoflight8160: Yes. Otherwise I have to give up on them, as I get more tired of having my time mostly wasted. That could be a good thing for AI to do, since it just has to be decent, not precise. Just SCREENING lots of information re news, internet content providers, etc.
When it can do it well and rather consistently and conveniently, I'll be interested.
@@danielmurogonzalez1911 it is quite simple to be honest. Timestamp videos in the comments and give commentary so it can be thumbed up to the top. 🤷🏾♂️
L(M)FP indeed is a game changer and will soon take over from NCM/NCA chemistry. Higher energy density than LFP, lower fore risk than NCM, more cycle life than NCM/NCA and similar low cost as LFP.
Whatever happened to the sodium based batteries?
Canadian Y and 3 are NOT using LFP on anything but the standard range models. They simply switched to smaller packs from China
Good to see progress, baby steps I'd say. Like going from ferro cassete tapes to extra ferro, not yet chrome, in the 70-80's. Let this new tech cure and mature for a while and we'll see 3000 km @ 1/3 weight and charge time "soon"
Does this chemistry have the same cold weather issues as lithium iron phosphate batteries?
No
On my way back from commifornia I notice a Tesla sitting on the side of the road with the emergency lights on. It made me think, when you accidently run out of gas you can just hike over to nearest gas station and buy a gallon of gas to be able to drive back to the gas station. What do you do if your electric car runs out of juice?????🤔
Gasoline generator :)
Static electric charger 😂
I, personally, see more in iliquid battery tech. It's kinda fascinating, you can store electric charge in drum.
How exciting, thanks for sharing about this new battery technology!
Im waiting for a game changer that will change the game changer...
xpeng g6 charges at 350kwh peak. 10 to 80% in 14mn
😆 yes I'm waiting for the testla killer killer of the killer 😂
@@wickedleeloopy2115 model y owner here. Yes I would get the g6 over model y. Tesla has many quality control issues until now and my new car already seen Tesla service centers for 2 times in 1 month. There are many Tesla fanboys who don’t even own one and don’t know what they are talking about like the guy in the video
@@tonypaca3015 Yes, but I will say this in my 35 years of owning and driving vehicles. Never ever purchase the first year model of any vehicle, whether it be conventional or electric. Let someone else work out the bugs and defects, cause if it's the models first year there will be plenty of them.
@@Ryan-ff2db that is true. But I myself would still get the xpeng g6 over my model y. I own this car for 1 month and it’s been in 2 different Tesla service centers for 2 weeks already. I don’t think I can get anything worse than that lol. My experience is totally ruined
240 Wh/kg is nothing exceptional, on par with current NMC. CATL is already achieving up to 500 Wh/kg... so, I don't see Gotion taking any future market... except if production cost is really really low. And : NO, I don't believe that a 5% lower cost will make Gotion capable to compete for the battery crown. I am much more believing that the winner will be the company achieving the highest energy density, because in the end, its all about mass production bringing costs down... Today the podium for the highest energy density on a production line goes to : CATL ! Good luck to Gotion, they will need some.
Abundant and reliable charging infrastructure for those who need to do a long trip is still more important than having a huge range that most people will never need, but it is useful to have cheaper and smaller batteries that allow for more time before changing is needed for all the folks who for whatever reason cannot just plug the car in a free charger every day.
Also, it makes it easier to make fun of the idiots who obsess over range: 1000km is over 600 miles, even if you are among the rare people who need to drive 60 miles each day that means you only need to charge once every ten days. In the unlikely case if you had to do a long road trip and lived in Germany where you can drive 150mph on autobahns so it would take "only" four hours to empty the battery, driving at high speeds like that is extremely stressing and four hours is long enough that your passengers will force you to stop for a break even if you want to risk getting a heart attack from sitting so long.
Anyone who is not driving a long haul semi but complains that EVs do not have enough range for their daily driving is either lying, doing some kind of illegal job like smuggling drugs through back roads so they can't stop at chargers because they have cameras, or is some kind of special case that applies to less than one person in a million and therefore irrelevant to any discussion about regular cars and drivers.
Well said
I live in a third-floor apartment and there are no charging stations anywhere near me. I don't have an extension cord that long.
There are no gas stations near me either. But there are always some on the way to where I’m going, if its any distance away.
Same with charging stations, if you cant charge at home.
@@JDP-2024 Ok so I can just stop for 2 hours on my way to work.
@Sam, what happened to Sodium being technically superior and the battery for the coming decades?
240 wh/kg is the same as Tesla NCA 2170s from 2018. It is impressive for a low cost battery, but it isn't an energy density that is unattainable by current high nickel battery chemistries.
This is a tech for cheaper high volume products, which is more disruptive, but it isn't quite game changing for me. We need both cheap and high performance batteries to completely replace fossil fuels, and unfortunately the heaviest polluters require the highest performance batteries such as farm equipment, ships, and semi trucks.
exactly - we have the tech for 500wh/kg - by 2030 we have no energy problem world wide!
By high performance, I assume you mean more capacity for same weight and volume. I personally think this concern is a bit overblown. The real reason people have so much range anxiety is not because their car can store 200 miles per full charge instead of 400 miles. It is mainly because they don't have an EV charging network similar to gas stations, and because the charge time takes much longer than filling gas.
How does this battery compare to the Lithium Titanide battery, now in production by Tesla?
Electric Viking, you do good work. Don’t let these detractors get under your skin.
❤I see you are still in Singapore. I hope your wife is feeling better.
So do these 4680 batteries actually have 5X the energy, 6X the power, and 16% more range -as originally claimed?
I mean it's china, any numbers they put out are probably inflated by 50%
The claim was based on its dimensional size not the Wh/kg or Wh/litre. The Maxwell dry coating was going to improve to about 300Wh/kg from ~250Wh/kg then hopefully to 500Wh/kg which is 100% improvement or x2 better.
@@AORD72 Do you have a source where that improvement has been tested and verified?
@@Yanquetino I think Tesla bought Maxwell because they evaluated its batteries. That gave credence to Maxwell's claim. I think Tesla would have extensively tested the prototype dry electrode batteries before investing. Musk said something like he wasn't interested in people telling Tesla that they had better batteries, he wanted battery prototypes to test.
I had the same questions when I first saw the X5 as to what they meant. At the time I concluded that they meant size because the new battery was based on the Maxwell dry coating method. And when you calculate at the volume of the 4680 cells vs the old you could see they would have ~5X the energy due to volume and slight increase of Wh/Litre (~250 to ~300). I'm too lazy to calculate now but you can (at the time I did rough calculations).
I think you can find evaluations of the 4680 vs 2170 on TH-cam telling all the maths. People will have tested and worked out the Wh/kg and compared.
I think the problem Tesla battery advancements have been slow has been the consistency of mass production. But that is typical in mass manufacturing. The good news is they are constantly improving. Personally I think Musk should create a competition within the USA (or world) universities to develop the best batteries to speed things up.
@@AORD72 So… no source yet for verification, just trusting Maxwell's claim. Got it.
I'll believe it when I see it. The 4680 was meant to be a breakthrough battery. turns out it's pretty crap. same if not more weight due to thicker walls, less energy dense, higher cobalt.
I was thinking the Nickle, Cobalt are the primary costs of NMC batteries, with Lithium being the runner up? I could be wrong.
Charging time of 15mins is not what you want on the way to work, but returning from work is totally acceptable especially if it charges to 80%.
I currently use LFP batteries in multiple applications and can vouch for there lightness and safety. They really take a beating compared to lead acid and spiral wound sealed lead acid. Can't wait to see these new batteries.
Not in a car though, eh?
@@jamescollins3647 Yes, starting battery, Deep cycle, electric mower, powertools you name it. In some cases, the BMS is the limiting factor but there are ways around it.
@@fourbypete Not in a car then.
@@jamescollins3647 Not driving the vehicle forward, no. The model 3 Tesla's are using them. I don't know how many models in Australia have them but they are phasing out the lithium ion for LFP atm.
How much lighter is it compared to the current lithium ion batteries in a particular model?
Sorry I can't help. Misplaced my crystal 🔮
Phil shakes his Magic 8-Ball (has a crack in the sight glass but it works) A: "Better Not Tell You Now"
Another good news for EV Well done ❤
It won’t be long and there will be another Battery Breakthrough. This is Good. A Cheaper higher density Battery will be needed to achieve this zero emissions goal.
Hey Dave; yes hydrogen can it then becomes a question how we get it. There are a number of claimed breakthroughs; but no one is producing very much green hydrogen. There is some yellow being made which is a byproduct of industrial functions. Honestly if this is so critical - we should be doing massive carpooling now and significantly cut CO2 Now while also saving time and money; we aren't. Big Green advocates are flying around in private jets, not doing virtual presentations - So I conclude this isn't a crisis it is a sales pitch.
Follow RC car tech and they usually have the new stuff out on tracks several years before auto manufactures.
My main concern is it could mean that China has the monolopy of the battery market unless the likes of LG, Samsung and Panasonic (used by tesla) can come up with something better. I guess the upside is its going to force more innovation from the competitors. Its a huge surprise what CATL have come up with in a short space of time.
I've read that Tesla is already using BYD batteries. I'm a little confused as to what's going on. Doesn't Tesla + Panasonic have a gigafactory for batteries already?
@@ChickensAndGardening yes they do. I didn't know BYD actually made their own batteries too. Tesla is using CATL batteries in their Chinese made teslas, but I think that they will still be using Panasonic in gigafactory Texas, as they are planning to expand that factory even more. I wouldn't be surprised if they have their own battery chemistry up their sleeves.
the main concern with china is that their economy is collapsing, factories won't hire anyone over 35, and the young generation doesn't want to work. then you have the immanent demographic collapse, two entire provinces bankrupt, and the other provinces are having to stop paying salaries sometimes to public servants or pay very late (months late in some cases) just to make interest payments on their loans.
The more the world decouples from china the worse things are economically for china. So china isn't going to have a monopoly over anything any time soon. Other countries have the rare earths the world economy needs now, so that card is can't be played for them anymore.
Knowing this from a business pov is good intel. That means you can de-risk your business and manufacturing ventures to something that will not cause your company to lose large sums of money because of manufacturing delays.
Oh dear then we need to get are arse into gear no moan about it..
@@daomingjin don't believe everything you read, China is close to collapsing as the US is...
What costs are you speaking about per kWh.
Jack Ricard predicted iron phosphate batteries were the answer nearly 10 years ago, god rest his soul.
LFP uses more lithium than ternary cells but it’s it’s in a form that’s significantly cheaper to refine.
Another good news for EV, well done🎉
I hope you follow the el-prix in Norway. The worlds largest test of range, and charging in the world?
If you are going to charge a battery from 10 to 80% in 8 minutes, it must be a thicker cable. The heat in the cable, etc. can be a problem. I suspect
Where?
Manganese is moving into short supply with the industry saying they will be unable to meet demand by 2026. Hopefully this can be resolved.
Viking, thanks for your previous coverage of the batteries by Magnis Energy, who also use Manganese (but no Iron). No Nickel or Cobalt either. Magnis also has a deal to supply graphite anode material to Tesla. They are nearing UN38.3 safety certification for shipping. And, shares are still really cheap, pending first revenue. Just sayin' !
Cool, thanks
Thanks for the update great as always
Our pleasure!
Now it is perhaps not so common to have very fast chargers. Not even in Norway. There is a normal speed of 50 kW on many chargers. Surely at least 230 kw is needed for it to be as little as 18 minutes? maybe it is also required that the car has a 600 V system?
If Iron Phosphate is such a good battery, then why is the warranty shorter for those batteries in Tesla? 100,000 miles for LFP vs 120000 for NCA.... Something doesn't add up. We are told these batteries will last longer, yet the warranty is shorter.... Things that should make you go hmmmm
If all the marketing lined up with the warranty it might be more believable. If these batteries are so great then let's see a 200,000 mile warranty on them. Why not? We are told they are just that good.
How about sodium ion?
LFP batteries by CATL expected life 1,200,000 miles. What is the expected life in miles of the LFPM? Concerning battery life in million mile Plus range, that eliminates consumer fear of expensive battery replacement. Also, for high use cases such as police cars and Uber, the life cycle cost of EVs is about $100,000 cheaper over 12 years including purchase price, fuel and maintenance (12 year life of the car, not 4 years for gas).
Isn't Amprius silicone anode mfg across the street from Fremont factory? Must be hard to come up with content and a thumbnail to your video to make you click.
Let's be clear here.
A kWh is a kWh as far as I know. Battery chemestry cannot give you significantly more range per kWh I'm assuming.
What it can do is make the battery pack significanly lighter to allow for more range that way.
Whether that makes enough of a difference to result in a normal car that can do 500-600mk with a 50kWh battery?
Seems a little unlikely but it would be great.
What would be cool enough if if it would allow 500-600km of range in the same space of a battery that would previously allow only 300-400km of rqnge. That would be game changing already.
It's not even just the battery that is the only issue 😔. Infrastructure is the biggest game changer.
Don't make me get my popcorn out 😂
Maybe, I believe, battery of the century, best battery ever, could be... you never know. Why are almost al YT titles click-bait now? On nearly every topic.
I'm waiting for an electric awd RV with good range and all the appliances running off the vehicle's battery. Am I asking for too much?
Sounds fantastic, but the long-term environmental impact still needs to be considered. We still need to look at the environmental issues where current-generation battery packs have failed.
Are the car makers going to support the repair of the batteries so they are not replaced after minor damage to the pack?
What is the CO2 hit for manufacturing?
Support for retrofitting new technology packs to existing electric cars to reduce the CO2 of the manufacturer of the car itself and to allower lower income people to use electric vehicles?
Proper support for recycling where repair is not viable or possible or batteries become obsolete.
Unfortunately, I do not trust car makers to do any of the above.
Interesting info. Groups / Individuals can be myopic when it comes to technology changes
Reading the comments you can already tell the mob is all over this update like crazy
One possible factor here is that some of the Chinese companies are likely to have used some of Tesla's patents. If they did then Tesla would be allowed to use their tech as well on anything that Tesla falls behind on.
There are already Korean cars that claim to be able to charge from 10 to 80% in 18 minutes. But of course very fast chargers are required for that and the battery is heated
What about Amprius ? 500 Watts/kilo,,,
do you mean 500 watthours per kilogram?
If so, please ellucidate us
When will we see these batteries?
Lithium Ion, Manganese, Phosphate... LMFP Awesome energy density aside that's helluva mouthful! Why don't they just cal it LMP????
Remember at Tesla Investor Day they said motors would come down to $1000 and rare earth minerals would be eliminated. So there is a lot more in the secret sauce from Tesla to go from a motor costing $2500 down to $1000 than what was mentioned here.
🤔 shouldn't it be a messurement like miles/kg or mi/volume to tell the progress ?
Using miles requires specifying many other variables such was weight of the vehicle, aerodynamic efficiency, efficiency of the drivetrain, tires, etc. Other than weight, these are unrelated to the battery.
This is good but there will be more and better ones so they better get to market quickly before they get leap frogged.
The Chinese are as bad as P.T. Barnum! Everything they do it the biggest and the best and revolutionary, ground breaking, earth shattering, game changer, etc.🎉😂
Unfortunately very true, boring but true😊
You forgot 'world changing' lol.
What has happened to Store Dot ?
Electric Viking…I catch your video’s almost routinely on my drive too and from work. I work in finance and your honest information is so helpful.
As battery tech is often something you discuss have you ever looked into the little US comapny called Amprius? They are using a silicon/Carbon v combination to store the lithium and the carbon/silicon nano tubes prevent the problematic expansion that silicon alone has in batteries?
Heard about it from Munro Live and was curious your thoughts.
If they can scale up quickly, it will be helpful.