Solid state energy storage for your home. Really?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2024
- Solid state batteries? When will they ever actually arrive? Well, according to a Florida based start up called Amptricity, they have arrived already and they are available right now for delivery to your home in 2023. So has this news caused Elon Musk to quake in his entrepreneurial boots, or is the marketing hype getting a little ahead of its skis? Lets take a look.
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I have to say Amptricity is setting off my "grift warning" sense. A company appearing out of nowhere hyping up a highly priced item just as a market is heating up needs to do a lot of legwork to show how their claims match up with reality. The fact the CEO is enthusiasticly calling it a "magic box" also lights up a warning light for me.
Not to mention the first customer shipment sliding from Q! to Q3. I have seen some companies pull this off for more than a year without ever shipping a viable product.
Even if it is all real, it still doesn't play with others like a Powerwall. Mine charges up to 100% automatically when a National Weather Alert happens, I don't have to think about it. While I don't get the longevity I had hoped, it was still worth it. I just wish Elon (or someone) would bring out a converter so we can let OTHER solar panels (I have 30) work with the Powerwall (which has 9 _other_ panels.)
What do you mean?
It's exactly on-par with the rest of things coming out of Florida lately.
Totally consistent.
I think Edison wrote something about the battery market being one big grift and to be weary of any "huge breakthrough companies" appearing out of nowhere.
Nonsense! A 25 year warranty from a startup sounds totally legit!
Just a guess here, but perhaps this was not a story about that battery company, but rather a story about how easy it is for a manufacturer to hide the truth from the consumer.
Correct Dennis. A sort of 'salutory story'
@@JustHaveaThink Thanks for the story!
Nikola 2.
The guy reminds me of Trevor Milton
@@JustHaveaThink 'salutary' ;)
That, "off grid holy grail" thing sets me off... sounds like they might be pushing a well engineered "fly by night" business where they over hype, get a pile of orders, deliver a few then fold while keeping profits in some foreign bank and escaping to the Bahamas. A lifetime warranty is something I would be skeptical of as well.
I don't trust anything coming out of Florida. It's a homestead state where your multimillion dollar mansion/estate can't be attached in a bankruptcy (see O.J. Simpson). The fact that Florida is run by corrupt batshit crazy Republicans isn't a coincidence. Honest states go after assets of millionaire criminals.
Precisely.
Sounds like they read DJ Trumps playbook.
I've been off grid for years. I did it by choosing a lifestyle that is simple, more reliant on hand tools than electric, and setting up my home for efficiency. I believe that sustainability starts with creating spaces and lifestyles that work with the natural cycles and energy available. Then work on how to collect and store energy
Simplicity is the key. I've reduced my energy consumption by living simply. But that's not sexy or great lifestyle marketing
Earthships nailed it decades ago!
Well done you, do you live in a conventional house? I've lived in vans since 2001, its effecient, it's cheap, its brilliant at festival time, it is why I can afford to enjoy my retirement.
@@clive373 I've been a roaming vendor for about 18 years. The pandemic temperarily took me off the road. I'm trying to put it back together. I do it by setting up all day to day for hand tools and 12 volt. and careful orientation of my rig. I live a more abundant life by relying on systems that I can maintain.
@@nobelelroi5449 But abundance and self reliance is. I live abundantly by working with systems that I can manage and maintain. Right now, I am working to get back on the road.
Camping is effectively living off grid. It’s the choices you make beyond that could bring you back on grid. Life is about choices.
Future of stationary storage is LFP and then Sodium based batteries because lower cost and weight/volume not as important as vehicles.
If they really have a great Solid State battery that can charge faster etc, they would be putting it in cars and trucks.
Nailed it
Yup I think sodium is the best overall stationery storage. And it is being produced in a mass scale for new chinese - in city- EV cars.
100%. The business plan just doesn't make sense if they have such amazing cells the last thing they would do is waste them on stationary storage. Stationary storage only uses 2170s because they haven't switched over yet (supply chain and logistics) not because of any good engineering reason.
You bet they would at least be leasing it to car companies and raking in the cash
As always would be great if true but it want to see it in action
Remember, prototypes are easy but manufacturing at scale affordably is exceedingly difficult...
The guy that invented the zipper made next to nothing. The guy that invented the machine to mass produce zippers made a fortune.
Says Elon Musk
I don't think they even have a prototype
Maybe new
THERANOS
NICOLA
To say nothing of quality, lifetime & reliability. Demonstrating these requires relatively large volumes manufactured in a production environment with quarters to years of calendar time required, not a lab in a few weeks/months.
Sounding like some Muskbot.
As a solar homeowner, I can attest that battery storage is almost a necessity. Since installing mine, the grid has gone down 37 times, yet I never knew it until later checking the app's Backup History. It's great to be able to power your home and EV on clean, green sunshine -day and night!
sssh... the solid battery naysayer don't like to corrected
A bit sad for everyone else who can’t afford one or who’s home can’t accommodate one. Imagine how much better your economy would be if the power could be kept on!
Where are you living? My ordinary grid power in my third tier city goes down less than once a year.
How bad is your grid? I have not seen an actual outage in 20 years. But even for a few minutes. It's the US grid really that bad.
@@itsROMPERS... Few times a year here at north Lake Huron rural. The lines run through LOTS of forests you know. Every time the wind blows in gusts or there's that dense heavy snow you can guarantee it'll go out. On the plus side houses are really cheap, there's near zero motor traffic and the scenery is utterly clean & beautiful woods, lakes & sunsets.
We have been completely off grid in Victoria Australia for 23+ years Solar panels supplying 880 amphrs of lead acid batteries. 2 years ago we replaced these slightly tired batteries with a set of Renewed forklift batteries and the system is firing on all. We run a 48 volt inverter system so the amperage drawn is not enormous. The older batteries are now running a work shop where they don't have to work so hard or so continuously . I often wonder if the sleek lines and small footprint of the Tesla model wouldn't be nice but the cost to install and the lifespan of ten years tends to negate the thought.😊
Bear in mind, it’s a warranty of 10 years, not a lifespan for the Tesla power wall… there are old model. S still travelling around with over half a million miles on them.
10 years is the guarantee not the lifespan which is likely to be 25 or more.
A small, light, fast charging solid state battery would be a game changer in a car, but at a home where weight, size, and charging speed is a non-factor between Li Ion batteries, it looks like this high priced and over-hyped battery is a non-starter.
It totally bests any other in-the-home battery solution. Given it is LFP and not that energy dense, 11K charging cycles is more than 2.5x of any other LFP chemistry. Assuming 1 full depth charge-discharge cycle per day, 365 x 25=9125 which < 11000 cycles. Math checks out. 👍
The LiFeP version only has 1C charging and 180ish W/kg, so slow-ish and heavy. Definitely not great for a car, but adequate for home storage. It's also much more expensive than Tesla's offering, the durability is unproven, and a lifetime warranty from a company that didn't exist 3 years ago and who knows if will survive 25 years itself isn't worth all that much.
The tech is cool though and I hope it'll work.
True. Cheap solutions like sodium ion would do wonder here.
@@pranavid Except that their consumers are Americans which predominantly favor savings in the short term vs the long term.
Even if they have a product they absolutely can deliver, and that the stated performances are as they say, I doubt that they will manage to sell as many batteries as Tesla has unless they are able to bring the upfront costs down to closer to the Powerwall.
That is a possibility, it isn’t the first time that a product has been expensive initially before ramping up to scale, but the fact that there exists another home energy storage product that is significantly cheaper for similar benefits (25 years can be longer than some houses built in America last), means that the company will have difficulties scaling up production unless they are able to get significant funding (which may be why they are hyping up this product so much and seem to be waiting to scale up production until after they’ve had orders come in).
On the other hand, at this stage it just as easily could be an actual prototype that failed at achieving the goals it was meant to do, being marketed anyways in a last-ditch effort to save the company from going under, or by investors trying to raise stock prices enough to recoup their investment by offloading shares onto other investors.
Solid state still not yet achieved commercial production
Billions dollars invested from big companies and still not available
Its not logical that this secret 1 year company can do it
Already taking preorders for a product that we can only see on a poor quality render
factory will be build in 2024 but they already deliver the product in 2023? damn they not only have a commercial solid state battery buy also a time machine
truly impressive
Yeh this smells like total BS.
It's possible that they have a manufacturing partner who will build the first edition of this battery to fulfill initial orders, prove viability, establish revenue flows, and work out logistics. Then, they bring their own factory online to take a larger share of the profits, control quality, etc. It's also possible that they are full of it. Time will tell.
You are just brilliant at sifting through the BS and exposing it in a remarkably calm, non sensational way.
Loving your work Sir
Thanks for the tongue-in-cheek exposé Dave. The chance they are around 10 years from now, let alone 25, are slim to none.
If they deposit a certain amount of their profit into a trust for the warranty to be protected, then it sounds like a great plan. The Trustee of that trust should also be a separate and independent party.
Now that's a great idea.
Sounds very un-American.
Or you just buy a current 12 kwh LFP battery for 6k, and replace them every 10 years with a new and improved battery that probably only costs half as much.
A lot of warranties are done through an insurance company. so you should be covered if the manufacturer goes out of business. You can always rely on insurance companies to look after you, in the same way that pigs can fly. Hell is frozen over, banks are honest and energy companies aren't greedy.
What type of warranty are we talking about here? Money back guarantee? In that case, I would be happy to sell you an empty box and give you back all the money when you decide that it is not working as advertised. In the meantime, I will have what is essentially an interest-free loan from you. What is to not like for a scam!?
The reason they can offer a 25 year warranty on their "game-changing" technology is that they totally know that most customers will move onto newer more incredible game-changing technology well before the 25 years is up.
Probably do an asset only sale of their business when the warranty claims start piling in. This basically renders the warranties useless
Assuming 1 full depth charge-discharge cycle per day, 365 x 25=9125 which < 11000 cycles. Math checks out. 👍
❤❤❤
PV usually comes with 25 year warranty plenty people reached that already
And that they'll be out of business 5 years from now.
I am currently off-grid use LFP CATL cell batteries which I imported from China to Thailand. The delivered price of $200/kWh would mean a 12kWh battery cost me $2,400 instead of $20,000. Used them for nearly 2 years with no noticeable degradation.
What volume of space that take up?
@@davescott7680 I have vids of my setup
It was great seeing you at Fully Charged North live on Saturday.
You are as precise and clear thinking live as on youtube.
I hope you become a regular presenter at Fully Charged Live events.
Most self-aware climate tech TH-camr, thanks Dave.
Cheers Daniel
I don't why, but I love this guy. I'm not sure if it's his bald head or if it's his optimism for every "revolutionary battery tech" that never seems to come to the market. Either way, well down sir. It's always nice to site down on a Sunday, have my bran muffin with a cup of tea, and listen to you tell me something that I'll probably never see come to fruition before my death, even through I'm only 32 years old.
Love and peace from South Africa.
I don't think that's fair given that this video is demonstrating a great deal of skepticism towards the product in question. Also I'm not sure what the amount of hair on someone's head has got to do with anything.
I like him in spite of him apparently believing the global warming crisis hoax.
@@normanhosford2506:
Global climate change is a hoax.
The only americans who have electric service in their homes are the ones who own EVs.
The national power grid was energized for the first time on may 15th 2022.
All statements above are equally true.
@@normanhosford2506 Goofs like yourself are pretty funny, you claim global warming is a hoax without evidence while actively flying in the face of actual evidence.
That level of self confidence is impressive.. but I bet you get angry a lot as you see smarter and more powerful people than yourself trying to address what you see as a hoax.
You must have missed his recent video on the big El Nino coming this year. That would have satisfied your desire for quick results. 😅
Biggest warning sign is that they want preorders before having shipped their first product. It is easy to make prototypes but building a full factory to support sales is something completely different.
I installed two Powerwalls in 2018 to complement our 13.2 kW solar PV system. They are an amazing product and we have been extremely satisfied with their performance over past 5 years to enable us to operate as a microgrid and Net positive energy producer averaging over 350% of our energy needs in our all electric home including charging two EVs off our roof, while exporting greater than half our excess solar energy back to the grid. We do not draw energy from the grid for ~ 8 months of the year and only draw energy from grid during the winter when there is insufficient solar to fully run our home and charge our batteries. I love the solar + PW2 system we have to reduce our carbon footprint. Additionally I am currently on my 4th Tesla vehicle starting with the 2012 Model S and have never had a problem with runaway battery fires, etc. I feel completely safe with my cars and Powewall batteries.
I had a friend who lived off grid in the '80s using kerosene lamps and a lp fridge. Then one day in the mid-00's he invited me over for dinner. I was wondering what was going on as he and his wife were staring at me like a cat who had caught the canary when suddenly I noticed he had electric lighting.
Apparently the look on my face when I noticed was worth their anticipation. They had 8 ground mounted solar panels and 10 marine deep cycle batteries. It could not do much but provide lighting and power for their battery powered 9" b&w portable TV but what an improvement in their lives. No more Kero and no more bringing ni-cad batteries (for the TV) to my house to charge.
Solar panels are a huge step up from "no solar panels." Imagine how the first satellite engineers to be able to launch silicon PV cells felt!
In 1968, GM offered the new C3 Corvette, and in that first year, it was discovered that in cold weather the door handles froze and were unusable until thawing. The 1969 Corvette had new door handles that did not have issues. My point being that it takes a little while to see if something is as good as it is touted to be. Time will tell.....
What your saying is early adopters normally get shafted. Much like EV owners.
Not to mention internal combustion engine early adopters, as in this example here. Proper shafted.
I agree with those expressing skepticism about this company and its purported products. Perhaps Amptricity will be motivated to prove the skeptics wrong and make a difference. Thanks, Dave for "looking behind the cover plate" and giving a heads up about this development. "Caveat Emptor."
I noticed in the screenshot of the specs that the included "converter" (I think they mean inverter if it's an AC battery) is only rated at 3kW. Restricting current on output and input would be one way of extending the warranty. He sounded a bit like P.T. Barnum - a magical box that powers your home (as long as you don't run the kettle and dishwasher at the same time!). The only thing I noticed that is very different from typical LiFePO4 was the operating temperature was listed down to -20 deg C which would damage a typical battery with this cell chemistry if it were charged below freezing. On the negative side it's only listed to 40deg C on the hot side and relies on natural cooling. That would rule it out for anyone between the latitudes of Melbourne and Madrid...
Enjoyed the skepticism of the ever-present marketing boasts.
I had an emergency inverter using Lead acid batteries done at my home about 12 yrs back and works great till now. Just have to maintain the electrolyte level by just adding distilled water and keep the battery in a ventilated place is all. Once in a few years not particularly regular just have a pro come and give it a look is all that is needed and the thing is ok.
The most polite utter debunking of pure bunk I've ever witnessed. AWESOME. Well done!
I attended the Fully Charged show in Harrogate, England and saw your good self on the stage -great to see the man behind the You Tube screen! The 'Future of battery technology' discussion was very interesting, particularly the input from the battery scientist specialist and what I took from that, was that the future is more sodium based, as lithium has contracted in size/power output to about the smallest it can, without compromising safety.
4:14 shoot I’m not even trying to go off grid…since I’ll likely be in a condo one day and not have my own solar array, I’ll settle for something which just lets me charge when electricity is cheap and then discharge when electricity is expensive.
Hopefully prices get down to the point where I could actually use one of these to save money in this manner while also lessening how much I contribute to peak load issues for power generators.
Let's hope your condo developer adds community rooftop solar to the project. It's time rooftop solar is included in every development's blueprint.
Energy density seems like more of an aside than an important point for a stationary energy storage device. The cost per kWh over the lifetime of the device seems much more important here, and while this is much better than Tesla, we're going to need to see much better value for money to achieve what we must as a species! Still, I'm glad people are trying to make it work
Anyone can be “better than Tesla” on paper with nothing but arm waving to verify a non existent product.
I wouldn't factor in that 25 year pledge. Not for a new company with a new unproven product.
@@bjb7587 With no product or assets, promises that a cost nothing today are likely to be worth nothing for all tomorrows.
Yeah, you're both right - we really don't know if we're looking at just another grift here
I saw a talk few years back by university professor battery expert who said $80/KWh is the "Holy Grail". He showed the pricing of numerous batteries on plots but I've forgotten the details. He might have had something as low as $120/KWh on there but I'm struggling to remember.
Crazy price. Our 23 kWh LFP battery that I bought from Alibaba and put together was $3,400, less than 1/10th of this price. It is working great still after several years.
We need a performance test of all the competition.
I do love your balanced commentary in all your videos and I particularly liked the diplomatic way you put in words like "ambitious" in this clip. It;'s wonderful to get up to date information in our fast changing (charging??) world.
"Magic energy box." There's no need to get so technical, fella! Could you dumb it down for us common folk?
Again, they throw intelligence that’s “artificial” at us.
Dave, as you inform me ever better on these matters, you keep a voice inside my brain chanting softly "...VHS...Betamax...VHS...Betamax..."
We're not talking about an entertainment standard here. We're talking about potential holy grail of improved charging speeds and more capacity. If you can get a battery that charges 4x as fast, and gives you even 25% more range and far less less weight. That's a big deal.
@@leftcoaster67 and always "just another couple of quarters away, we'll take your pre-order though"
@@leftcoaster67 Sorry for being too obscure. I was not talking about an 'entertainment standard'.
@@loopwithers I get what you meant. It's I'm pointing out the impact on society is going to be a lot bigger than VHS or Betamax, or Blu-Ray vs HD DVD. This how your home/vehicles might store energy. There's a lot of money up for grabs for this. With a lot of applications it can be used for. But yeah there's going to be companies and people that will succeed and ones that will fail. The sad thing was betamax was a better quality format. Sony just got too greedy. A lesson they learned on Blu-Ray.
@@leftcoaster67 You make very valid points but what you are pointing out is not what I am pointing out. In 2023, imagine you are a massively unregulated hedge fund manager. Using shell companies, you buy shares, heavily and legally and anonymously, in two competing products. Their values increase. Your share portfolio value rises. You take your cut. You then dump shares in one of the two products. That company crashes. Shares in the other company rise. You then buy the failed company up at a discount. You now own it. Then, you dump shares in the other company. Do the same thing. Because in advance, you have used shell companies to buy into hedge funds that are all along controlled by you and they are betting on you crashing one company, buying it and then creating a run on the other. Etc. It doesn't matter because the process is legal and best of all, the money isn't your own. The personal commission you generate definitely is. Laundered money from offshore shell companies shield your identity and your investors are delighted. The names of investors in both companies are the names of shell companies using investment money donated by registered charities and pension schemes. And drug cartels and warlords. Possibly. That's what I'm talking about.
Lead-acid batteries are still the standard here in north Queensland Australia. My own are Trojan 6v 225AH. The price has doubled to A$400 since 1991. They last about 6-7 years.
Lead acid were never an ideal solution. Iron-Nickel batteries have been around for over a hundred year while not energy dense they have a longevity measured in decades and can be easily refurbished by just changing out the electrolyte. Now LiFeP are replacing Iron-Nickel because of cost and energy density, but they still don’t last nearly as long.
@@matthewhuszarik4173 I guess each cell (in an iron-nickel battery) could have an automatic water topper-upper-er?
@@jimmybrad156 Actually they do have automatic watering systems when I looked into them. Little float valves in each cell and a high purity water supply with an accumulator.
The reason I wound up with a Power Wall instead was primarily convenience and I am away from home for many weeks at a time. All the remote monitoring that a Power Wall with solar give you, allow peace of mind everything is functioning while you’re away.
You can get commerical industrial quality lead acid batteries that last 30-40 years. They are typically used in power plan emergency backup battery rooms and other industrial facilities. the larger ones are a clear glass "bottle" about 1 ft in diameter, 3 ft tall and weigh several thousand Lb each. You can literally see into the battery and see the condition of the lead plates and any reaction products in the bottom.
The manufactures buy the old ones back and reuse the glass jar.
One of the nuclear power plants I worked in replaced all of their original cells at about 40 years. They will run instruments, controls, and a few very critical pumps for I believe 24 hours even if none of the multiple emergency diesel's don't start.
Of course, the plant battery room is about the size of half of the 1st floor of my 2 story house.
They make smaller versions as well that only weigh a few hundred Lb. But, that's the long life way to go if you really want a long term battery backup with lead acid batteries.
@@perryallan3524 Lead acid can last decades but they cannot last thousands of cycles. That makes them ideal for backup power that is rarely used. Ni-Fe batteries can be cycling many thousands of times and if they eventually do lose capacity all you have to do is replace the electrolyte. They have some built by Thomas Edison over a century ago still in use.
The one thing special about this battery, so far apparent, is that the CEO makes special claims about it, that have yet to be demonstrated, if I understand correctly. Based in Florida. It seems there is something about that state that makes wackiness and untruth commonplace. That causes me to just have a think; Bat-signal illuminated.
Precisely. Florida. Not exactly the world center of technology development and innovation. All warning systems ON.
Hey now! I won't stand for your disparaging remarks of Honest Harry's! Aside from that, I appreciate the reality check! A bit different from your usual videos, but with the same trademark humor and critical analysis. 9/10 (10/10 if you issue an apology to Harry ;)
The "Lifetime" warranty really only means "the lifetime of the company" and there's just no guarantee any given company will still be around when you need it, much less a "stealth mode" one. I'd prefer to see them building cells for consumer electronics or even vehicles where size and weight make a real difference. Who cares how energy dense a freestanding box is?
Bottom line is cost. Even the Tesla Powerwall is expensive. We need these devices to drop in price for them to become more widely adopted. Meanwhile, with vehicle to grid, you can use you car's existing MUCH larger battery instead of having a single purpose battery like the Powerwall. The batteries in the Powerwall should cost about $1,300 to manufacture (assuming $100/kWh). Why is does the Powerwall cost so much then?
Only problem with the vehicle battery is it's already depleted after reaching home from work and that's the moment you're actually needing power now that you just reached home in the evening...
So the only full use would be on weekends or working from home.
@M M Yeah because everybody works 300km's away....
My house uses 9-10 kwh a day the smallest ev battery has 40kwh if your only using it for your peak you would need 2-3 kwh max.
@@The-Cat depleted by the day to day work commute?
teslas have between 60 and 100 kWh of energy in them to get between 200 and 400 miles of range. The longest commute i've ever had was 50 miles each way and would never commit to that long term.
lets say you have a more average commute of 20 miles and a larger battery of 100kWh... you wake up in the morning at 90% capacity with 360 miles of range, drive 40 miles and plug it in when you get home at about 6pm. The grid takes 3 kW from your car between 6pm and 9pm when demand is higher totalling 9kWh of energy bringing you down from 80kWh to 71kWh and then you charge the car from 10pm to 6am the following day at 3kW getting you an extra 24 kWh bringing you back up to 95 kWh of charge (more than you started with)
This is not only enough but clearly more than enough and works for other battery sizes and other commute lengths and will be set to only take what you're willing to give leaving you with enough for your needs and compensating you for the vehicle to grid service.
@@zotter2542 Facepalm. my workplace is 170Km away (one way direction)
R.I.P to those have to deal with limited available shared chargers. Come to Brussels to find out how annoying it is to have an available spot to charge (there will be days you just can't charge) now imagine MILLIONS of people being forced to purchase an EV.
infrastructure wont be able to keep up =.
Not to mention the majority of the population doesn't live in a house with a driveway.
But hey if you want to remain shortsighted because you only look at your comfortable life ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ congrats to you that you dont have a workplace that's far from home
I love finding these companies and following their progress to commercialization, great coverage as always. Having said that, after listening to what the ceo said, he will need to bring the receipts. Big talk like that to investors can get you some jail time if you cant deliver
I'm sure lots of these guys do hard time.
Off grid 20+ years and I have used most every battery available from lead acid flooded, AGM sealed LI and LIFEPO4. There are drawbacks to each type but the technology is improving fast. I will be reviewing a semi solid state power station on my channel soon.
Currently I use LIFEPO4 with 800Ah of capacity and with the right appliances that will easily run an off grid home and still have most modern appliances. Most of the world does not live like we do in the US and doesn't need as big of a solar power system or battery storage.
In summer 2022 we had 2 PW2 installed. We have been more happy with the results than we expected. My goal was simply to be ready for a major Texas/Cali style power outage in the worst of an AZ summer. But it is looking like it has also zeroed our power bills for 2023. We'll see as the year continues forward. This is tied with a 15kw solar system (roof, 10 kw east and 5kw west facing; none great in direction!). I do think we'll update to a 3rd powerwall someday which would better serve us during the year to minimize how much we lose to the grid.
I like that you went forward without ideal conditions anyways. Plus if the Earth ever turns 90 degrees you'll have the last laugh.
For all the money that you would put in a Power Wall, you could have EASILY just gone with a few server Rack Batteries ($1500/5KWh battery) and 1-2 All-in-One Charger-inverter from EG4, MPP, Growatt. It would probably have cost you around $10,000 fully installed and you'd have 15KWh and a system that can easily be fixed, upgraded or swapped out as technology improves. Putting all your eggs in 1 basket with Tesla PWs is not good knowing how Flaky Elon Musk is.
Does the grid not pay you for your excess supply? Many companies do.
@@jonjohns8145 Tesla will be here in 10 years whereas most of their competitors won’t be. Elon is crazy, yes! But crazy smart which is why his companies are World leaders in the most important disruptive technologies.
The problem with south facing is that the power output drops just as everybody comes home and starts making dinner.
Considering East and west facing on our roof: despite a south facing portion. Thinking of reserving the south portion for thermal solar heat (which can be stored for a few hours).
All the promo material you mentioned have set my scam bells ringing. I'd be interested to see if they're also looking for investors, that would be a major red flag for me at that point.
Hi Dave It was good to meet you briefly in person at the Fully Charged North show yesterday where you were on a number of panel talks. You spoke really well and a little more vociferously than on the channel which was great to show your obvious passion for the subjects.
I do really like your calm and collected style on your channel but (and you agreed on our short chat) that it was good to show a bit of frustration with potential companies trying to BS people.
The biggest thing that I would like to see resolved is the CAR battery (a very big battery compared to the home batteries) to HOME connection issues sorted out so I can charge it up cheaply overnight and use it to power my house during the day/evening, and crucially my heat pump in the winter months (mine is a Mitsubishi Ecodan 8.5 Kw)
Many people are working from home a fair bit now and many people are either retired or semi retired and so don't really use there car that much for travelling/commuting.
So, it seems a no-brainer to me to NOT spent money on home batteries but on a car and inverter (plus the other gubbins) to make the battery in your car work properly for you. That would effectively save you a number of thousands on the car (if more of the manufacturers get their act together with vehicle to HOUSE). and a lot of money on cheaper electric bills, also helping pay for the said car.
Seems simple, stupid.
I heard at the show that the problems are manufacturers being afraid of battery degradation re warranty etc and also the issue of DNO's not being keen on homes being connected to the grid.
Firstly, the Nissan Leaf seems to have been managing to supply power to your home without any issues and I'm not interested in selling my cheap overnight electricity back to the grid if I'm using all of it myself to power my house (live in the West of Scotland so don't have solar for our week long summers !)
It would be great Dave, if you could do an episode covering this in your usual in depth no BS style and get to the bottom of why it is difficult for manufactures etc to do and most importantly what are the solutions.
Sorry this comment is a long one but it is a bit complicated and sometimes a brief comment leaves too many unasked as well as unanswered questions.
Many thanks again for a great channel and keep up the bit more ranting (as Robert does), sometimes it's good to vent and it reflects the frustration your audience is feeling too.
All the best
Alan
I bought some second hand solar panels and some lead acid batteries a few years ago. I run the house lighting off the batteries through an inverter controlled by a timer. I have an automatic change over switch, so if the batteries ever don't have enough charge and the inverter switches off, the lights go straight back over to grid supply.
has your system paid for itself?
An interesting, well researched and considered discussion. Thank you, sir. :)
Easier said than done. We’ll see. When there are 100,000 units built and in use with no recalls, it will be worth a look.
Great video again! I love your presentation of topics and was wondering what tools do you use for your animations and transitions?
Keep the news coming. Great job.
I'll be celebrating my 58th birthday soon so cashing in on a 25 year promise to collect and recycle my battery would make me 83 at the time. If I'm around I'm not entirely sure my primary concern will be the battery I bought a quarter of a century earlier. However it is good that we are heading in the right direction. Personally I want to see the grid take responsibility for caching excess power and not homeowners. Their ability to bulk buy will get them a better deal on installation and maintenance.
I agree in principle, but my grid is unstable due to lots of trees and frequent storms. Most of my neighbors have gas generators to cover outages. I'd rather have a battery for that, but I'm waiting for them to get cheaper.
The Grid does cache excess energy, just not enough yet. The caching that's installed is to cope with peaking demand over steady supply from nuclear but also copes to some extent with peaking & sagging supply from renewables.
@@incognitotorpedo42 have you looked at something like the Victron Multiplus which would allow you to use a relatively small battery to cope with short cuts but can also automatically start a generator for longer cuts? It also has the advantage you can use a smaller generator because it will use the battery to supply surges. It can use lithium or lead-acid batteries.
It also boosts the grid from the battery in case of brownouts but it doesn't sound like that's something you're dealing with.
@@alanhat5252 Long term, keeping an ICE generator on standby as 2nd in line during a blackout might have some application where they can last for days but most first World apps would probably benefit more from a larger battery with no generator. In my locale, I can reduce energy cost by 80% simple by charging overnight at 0$ and use that throughout $0.45 per kWh days.
@@colingenge9999 true.
My generator is still in the cardboard box it arrived in a couple of years ago.
Hey Dave, about lead acid for home storage: a high quality battery (ie, Rolls L16-EX) is rated 2500 cycles to 80% DOD. Sized to cycle every other day, that’s 14 years. Unlike lithium there is no BMS, so there are no electronics to turn your batteries into bricks. Lithium is all the rage but it’s a complex electronic device that can easily fail. For non-mobile applications were size/weight are not large factors, lead acid still has its place.
For me, as an off grider, the main problem with lead acid is their efficiency which is only around 70%. This compared with Li-ion of 95%. The other big problem is they have to frequently reach 100% charge or they terminally deteriorate which is easier said than done! Failing to regularly reach full charge is the main cause of failure of lead acid used in off grid applications. Most off grid setups fail because of this and it's unlikely you will see your 2500 discharge cycles.
I've had several lead acid batteries in many grid failure situations. NONE get close to 2500 cycles. None.
@@lighthousesaunders7242 yet forklift & other industrial uses often manage 10 years from lead-acid.
How do the electronics turn batteries into bricks? BMS can be replaced and are made by plenty of independent manufacturers. The battery itself is just chemistry, you can break it, but not brick it.
@@alanhat5252 That's because they get properly recharged, typically overnight. In off grid situations lead acid batteries often don't get to 100% before power is again drawn from them. This destroys them, often within a year. Li ion batteries don't need to reach full charge, in fact its bad for them.
I've been watching this channel for a couple of years now. I have finally come to the conclusion that this is a Science Fiction channel.
I lived off the grid for 24 years in the mountains of Santa Barbara. Started out with old school lead acid and then progressed to lithium iron phosphate. In a foggy climate it does not matter how much solar you have, you still need to have a generator for those cloudy days. I ran at about four days of autonomy. After that it's generator run time!
Something to consider, the yachting community has done the off grid thing for years and are quite good at it. A modern 45 or 50 foot catamaran is like a floating townhouse, and their systems have to provide propulsion as well as household power and ignore constant motion. If this new system is close to what it is cracked up to be there is a huge market.
IF !!
@@thinkabout602 have you watched "Motherless Brooklyn"?
Hm. Interesting point, but you said 'constant motion.' Using wave power to generate energy for the craft? Rather than ignore constant motion, _use_ it... Google "Wave motion electric generators" and see what is adaptable, most current systems are pretty huge, but an underwater buoy could scale down...
Yeah, where they'll primarily run a diesel engine to recharge the batteries.
Thank you Dave for sharing this video. The one thing that you totally missed was the packaging. The Tesla power Wall is compact and it can be mounted on a wall but this solid state battery looks like it is the size of a mini fridge.
I was just thinking this is more geared for something that moves rather than a house lol
it looks to me like it's designed to sit in a showroom not designed to be used.
Good point Badri
Can't wait to get my own magic energy box!
How come nobody thought of this before!?
For $12.000 you can get 40KWH of LFP server rack from EG4 (Signature Solar), and other similar priced batteries from several brands.
With the gentle cycling in a home Solar system,the 7,000 cycles will last more than 25 years.
That is 3.3 times the claimed capacity of the solid state battery mentioned here in currently available and proven chemistry.
LFP for home storage is still way superior.
I’d wanna know their financial health as a company before putting a deposit down but as others say LFP or Sodium is the home and big battery chemistry of the future I think. Solid state will start in small devices where space and performance is needed and can pay more for it
Thank you for your critical analysis. There needs to be a psychological study on how deceptive marketers learn to live with themselves.
That's already been done. It's called sociopathy. AKA: Being an asshole.
I'm not an engineer, however I have family that are. All I can say is, its wonderful to hear the enthusiasm they have in their fields - which is only matched by their disappointment in the real world result of their many projects. Not to worry though, the heart ache is short lived - quickly replaced by boundless enthusiasm for the next thing.
As someone who needs to have an offgrid solution to energy as I live in South Africa, the electrical side of off-grid necessities needs to start aligning itself with reality and fast.
Our entire town has individual solar, grid tied, battery and gen set systems. Majority of systems are undersized to the point of them being a joke, mid sized which will result in heart ache in a few short years and almost never sized correctly. With the appropriate intelligent design needed, easier to blame the consumer ofcourse.
My diy rainwater treatment and filtration system functions exceptionally, a solution for sewage processing is passing testing too.
Solar? I'm not sure what the guys are salivating over when they cant properly quote or implement this awesome technology, it's falling on homeowners entirely to dictate the systems and figure out the complicated side of distribution - without just slapping a 100kwh battery into the system because the panels or inverter was undersized.
We've lived off grid for nearly 25 years. Solar, wind, lead acid batteries, 230v inverters, normal domestic appliances. Is it perfect?....no....Is it great?... yes. Would I change?....no.... but the batteries are due for replacement and the tech is changing so rapidly I'm still not sure what to replace them with. Lead acid, tried, trust, almost 100% recyclable. Or something else.....? Oh, and I love your videos. Straightforward data, with a bit of wry humour! Perfect!🙂
I live near Edmonton Alberta, june 21st is about 18hrs of daylight. I've said this because, wouldn't the holy grail be being able to capture the unused electricity in the build up to the longest day of the year, as well as the same as the fall off to less than 8hrs a day, store it with very little loss, so it could be used during the coldest, shortest days of the year?
seasonal energy storage is very economyically challenging and needs a dirt cheap energy storage medium (e.g. dirt)
Are Tesla Powerwalls using lithium iron phosphate technology now? That’s the latest I’ve heard. So what is their longevity in comparison to the Amptricity solid state battery? At twice the price, that’s still a hard sell for me, when I could check out my options after 12.5 years and see how much 10x the equivalent technology costs then - maybe a 100-fold decrease in cost per kWh?
Always a good presentation !
Sir, i applaud you for your videos. They never failed to make me fall asleep. That's really helpful for my insomniac self. 🙏
Power wall also includes the gateway, which manages the battery, charging, and isolation from the grid when needed. Few competitors include much more than a transfer switch if that, hardly a comparable product. These guys remind me of Nikola.
Almost all hybrid inverters have that built in, nothing special...
Thanks, as always for great stories that are relevant in navigation of the options. For me, I'm planning on an EV bidirectional charge to be my backup system. It's worth the wait, I think to have something chargeable from mains or solar, and drivable to recharge if the circumstances permit.
don't plan on running a vehicle engine stationary, it wrecks them fairly quickly.
@@alanhat5252 With bi-directional charging, the motor of your EV does not run.
Excellent vid there! A bit of critical scrutiny, comparison and discussion. I believe we've seen more of that lately, channel gets better! Cheers!
Cheers Peter :-)
@ 7:58 "Magic energy box" now that's science!
I gave up waiting for a Powerwall here in the UK and have ordered the GivEnergy 9.5 kwh product instead. It seems to be better priced and your video doesn't tempt me to change that decision. A 25 year warranty is not much of an attraction-- who know what could happen to the company mentioned during that time?
Yep he says, a quarter of million powerwalls, but do not say if is only in states or worldwide,
Also do not says, how many of all other brands.
Looking on these videos I see a lot of other brands.
After a dispute with his local power company, my father went off grid with lead acid batteries clean back in the 1980s for a short time till the town government threatened to condemn his house if he didn't reconnect to the grid. He was right in the middle of town, lol. When that failed he tried defrauding the power company by figuring out a way to make his power meter run backwards while he ran his welder (not sure how that was done) but that also didn't work out so well for him, he ran the meter back too far and got caught and charged. In the end he just sold the house and moved to another town, he hated them so much.
I Really Enjoyed Today's Video So Much And I Definitely Learned Something New In This Video
My 2 Powerwall ll's have been running now for 6 years with no issues. Only wish the battery capacity was higher.
Space is rarely if ever a consideration when it comes to home/residential battery storage. Safety, Price, & performance matter.
Black holes are rarely considered when it comes to battery storage too
@@03samjon1 👍🏽🤪👍🏽
There's something about this fellow's voice that makes the hair stand up on my back. Too slick by half.
Really?
How does he compare to Peter Pan?
Maybe epilate🤔.
It gives me the Elizabeth and Trevor vibe.....
His voice screams grift city.
Why does Purge remind me of 'not even a medium shot' Jeremy Robard in GTA
"Hi, I'm Jeremy Robard, entrepreneur, VIP, and founder of the revolutionary program Think Your Way to Success. It's a 3-step program that's been changing lives, and my income for the last 2 years."
LOL, love this one Dave! Brilliant.
After 25yrs, will this company even exits? Sounds like a Trump grift! This is my bottom line!
Fascinating liberal? You can see Grift in Trump and you don't see it in the military-industrial complex and biotin
That is a fair point, though I don't know why you had to bring Trump into it. The biggest grift of all is perhaps the climate "crisis" that has become religion that O'Biden is peddling.
It wouldn't be the first time a CEO pump and dumped a stock to make a quick million bucks. I'd wait till someone cuts one of these open before I got too excited
Even well-established, reputable companies aren't guaranteed to be around in 25 years. Such a long warranty period isn't worth paying over the odds for.
Well gosh, it sure is easy to believe that a modern business, with a brand-new tech and business model will be around 25 years from now. Sure, I'd buy that for a dollar.
My rule of thumb is to expect things to exist for about as long as they already have. A company that has only been out of stealh for half a year might disappear in half a year. I don't have much faith in their "25 year" warranty.
I think it is fair to say that most people would rather put their money on a proven technology that is less expensive than an unproven, albeit promising, new technology that costs more. $20k for 12 kWh is nuts! I'm certain there will people who will take this risk and help this company move from the 'unproven' to 'reliable' space of consumer perception. But till that happens, I'm quite happy with my 4 'explosive' Powerwalls.
yea that price is way to high....I can make my own battery pack from LiFePo4 for 4k$ for 12KWH and I can also put my battery into my "homemade" electric car and save on fuel
@@faustinpippin9208 you're an outlier, it's great that you're around but you're not the mainstream consumer market.
The question is, why do you need **four** Powerwalls? What uses so much power that you need four? You need to put your house on a power diet!!
@@alanhat5252 so your argument is that someone who needs less power than me would pay double the price of the existing technology? Wow, solid “consumer” advice!
@@acmefixer1 I think someone else’s power needs are not for you to question. But if you must know, I have a 3k sq ft home with 2 ACs, electric range, water heater, oven, fridge and EV living in an extended outrage prone are with extreme heat waves. My ‘needs’ were determined by a professional who designs systems and said I needed minimum 3 Powerwalls with add’l being optional to extend duration of backup capacity during an outage. So a better question is: “are you an electrical engineer making a judgment about an installation with absolutely zero knowledge of the site?”
I think that the UK designed GivEnergy All in One setup will be a more serious competitor to the Powerwall. I've just had one installed and in addition to using the safer LFP chemistry it meets all the same capabilities, with full house backup (up to 6Kw) Unlike the Amptricity unit it's better sized for our smaller uk homes. Mine resides in the position that was previously occupied by an unused storage heater and has the same footprint. Perhaps a subject for investigation in future?
Lovely to meet you at Fully Charged in Harrogate yesterday. I have to say that this was not the headline that I wanted to see when I got back.. I'm a Tesla shareholder in a big way (relative to my means and hopes of retirement). The experience is volatile enough without hearing these stories. This sounds interesting but early days. Energy density doesn't matter so much for static storage. Critical will be the costs per kWh installed. "Prototypes are easy. Production is hard", If this is any good, there should be room enough in the market but this company and Tesla.
Yep, I was off grid for 15 years with just 6 second hand lead acid batteries and only 2 solar panels and later complimented with a wind turbine (that actually made my house sound like a turbo prop aeroplane about to take off, sigh....)That was back in the early 1990s. It worked.
Did your system manage to reach its 25th anniversary? ;-)
A solid state option is another step forward, if true. Hope they are on to actually coming out with a legitimate product. If so, can solid state batteries for cars be far behind?
Remember the fake hydrogen powered truck rolling down the hill?
Everything you say about battery's makes a $6,000, 1+ ton, 48-volt, lead/acid forklift battery look better & better. Of course, I do happen to have a forklift instead of an EV at home.
I'm suspicious of anything coming out of Florida these days...
Florida (new) State Motto:
_"Bet you can't pet that alligator 69 times before the fireworks in your mouth explode."_
Ever since I was able to pick up a copy of Popular Science, 70 years ago, our "Big Energy Fix" was "just" ten years in the future --- and always has been and always will be. I think I have ample reasons and experience to be mildly skeptical.
our "big energy fix" is here now though adoption is slow.
In 1910 most people on the planet thought the horseless carriage was bunk.
Planes? They'll never amount to anything either.
I really enjoy the well done podcasts you produce. I think one of Teslas weakest selling points is that they don’t appear to be greatly interested in selling their power wall products unless they are purchased in conjunction with their solar roofing product and that combination is an extremely costly investment. Even then, the consumer with very deep pockets who wants these products will find themselves at end of a very long waiting line.
Our holiday static caravan uses gas to cook and heat water (we use two bottles a year) and three solar panels with 4 large gel/ lead batteries for everything else. Works really well. Not in the caravan during the winter though.
I’d rather be able to use the battery already in my car for home backup (and maybe a little time of use arbitrage), than have a separate battery for that purpose.
Perhaps one day in the near future, the Solar Panel (and Storage battery) could be designed as a Modular Unit. The Batteries could take-up the whole area - directly beneath the Solar Panel. In simple terms, the more of these Modular Units that you own, the greater the kWh of Electrical Storage Capacity - for your home. Of course, each Solar Panel (with Integrated Battery) would add more mass to your roof, but this mass is not concentrated over a small area. All of these (combined) Solar Energy Units could be configured in Series or Parallel - or both, to give the desired volts / current output. Further, if your Power Wall fails to perform, you are up for extremely high-cost for replacement. But (if Manufacturers could make Solar / Battery Modules as an Integrated Unit), your costs would be infinitely cheaper to replace just ONE failing Solar/Battery Module. Failed Modules could be returned for repair in some special Shop, and then returned or re-sold. The sun would "gently" float-charge these Modules, with no excess current ever being applied. It is an exciting time to be watching the progress of Battery Technology, and your video prompted me to write-down my thoughts. Greetings from Australia.
Look at titan generator n solar panel combo for this solution!
It's good to come away with more (legitimate) questions than answers. Thanks.
I went off grid over 35 years ago, with good old fashioned lead acid. Diesel Truck batteries, then Trojan deep cycle and now we have a glass Tesla roof and two power walls.
Right you are Dave, i went fully off-grid with Pb-A batteries well before Li was an option.. I still have a Lead-Acid banks for back-up. They don't have problems charging below 32F/0C, like Li do. But they do need to be watered like plants (well cactus really). Weight is not an issue for stationary storage. I have some Li batteries too, but honestly electrons are all the same (according to QED).
An aside:
I am looking for a new battery system at the moment. However...
They seem to be preparing to film the next Mad Max sequel in Florida at the moment. It does make me think twice about anything Florida without a Mickey Mouse logo on it. I think i will give this one a pass untill they can _prove_ their radical claims.
Another great video, you always seem to be asking the right questions on these. Sales Gods help the poor sap who tries to tries to sell you a timeshare property. ;-)
We were off grid 1985-1998, lead acid…. I remember getting the last batteries from emergency backup at the airport, they sold them cheap after 5 years, (a legal requirment), though they were going strong 8-years later, when we left…
Have you met NiFe (Nickel-Iron)? It's far superior to lead-acid in many ways but killed by marketing though still available in specialist markets at a price slightly lower than lithium. First manufactured in 1901 by Edison for the Baker electric car so it has pedigree.
@@Naturalook Lead acid do require a little maintenance, like periodic watering, but if your day to day use is consistent i doubt anyone would know what battery chemistry their electricity comes from, without visually looking. Plus Lead-Acid are highly recyclable.
I think we focus too much time on which batteries, and not enough on getting people to use them and why they do or don't.
There's a big media scare going on about Lithium-ion at the moment, and i doubt 99.99% of the people know the difference between Li-ion and LiFePo4 cells. So we'll see how many people are turned off to having batteries in their homes after Corporate Media gets done with them.
Honestly, that's why people like Dave with this channel are so important to the World.
@@alanhat5252 That's a good point too. And Fe-Air batteries too. There are lots of reasons to like iron in electricity storage.
@@alanhat5252 I believe NiFe is a “Flow” battery?
Just to mention that when businesses refer to Quarters they are usually referring to the financial year, which is relevant to investors etc... The first quarter is APR-MAY-JUN which ends on 30th June. So a Q3 delivery would be sometime in OCT-NOV-DEC.
Fiscal years and quarters vary from one company to the next.
That's not a given, e.g. the large multinational where I work at has recently changed from FY starting mid-calendar year to coinciding with calendar year.
interesting - some companies have differing Quarters. Maybe there is motive in making the delivery dates more opaque, than saying delivery end of March 23.
An even better "angle" would be something that wasn't ridiculously priced, something an average person could buy without maxing out their credit cards. Even better, something they could drive to a big box store and see on the shelf, check out with and take home, and then install themselves if they have a bit of electrical know-how, or perhaps if not then hire an electrician to connect it. As long as this stuff costs thousands of dollars and you have to wait for delivery, its not cutting it.
I’m usually not smart enough to watch your videos, but I always do anyways because your brilliance makes me think that I’m smarter than I am. This one makes me think: “These are forward-looking statements!” Fast forward 6 months & we’ll see them not panning out.
Great video, and probably great product, but bad price point.
The existing gel based lithium ion based home batteries are already way too expensive for what they deliver to the average home owner. We need progress on cheaper batteries, not just longer lasting ones, although there are other claimed benefits here, claimed being the key word. Plus, I wouldn't trust even a well established company to still be around in 25 years, a startup like this could easily be gone a month after delivering, making that warranty and recycling promise useless.
Saltwater batteries
If they sell enough of these and they find a flaw you can bet they'll go out of business and the rest of the people who purchased the battery will be left holding the bag.