To use my useless writing degree(s) a bit here: Most ppl have a bad memory when it comes to the stuff they like -- esp stuff they liked as children! One exercise I talk ppl thru wherein they say "I wanna make a show like Sailor Moon" I make them go back and actually watch the damn show, and come back with notes on the elements they wanna bring into their own writing. Sailor Moon example: 1) I like the themes of friendship and found family 2) I like the fun, stylish, period appropriate but also modern fashions 3) I like that they show that theres hope at the end of sad moments and doesn't dwell on them 4) I like the tender LGBT+ romances 5) I like bright colors, cute animal sidekicks and just the fun stuff Keep in mind, I've never watched more than a few eps of Sailor Moon so I cant really comment on it's quality, but this is the vibe I get from most of what it's worst imposters are /trying/ to do but failing to achieve. It's fine you want to make strawberry cake, but you gotta learn what makes a strawberry cake tastes good before trying to make your own, or else you end up with the cheap sugar stuff that looks okay from a distance but ultimately leaves a bad taste in ppls mouths. Good stories rely on solid structure not pure decoration! Always make sure you got solid enough stuff to hold your story together
as a sailor moon fan, yup, the bond between the main cast is the main appeal and that of course is developed through the slice of life antics. that's why when the reboot anime tried following the manga's serialized drama format it flopped. we j want to watch the girls be silly teenagers and look at outlandish fashion!!
Another thing that what made 90s Sailor Moon also memorable that modern shows fail to realize that it had dark/mature elements and moments but it wasn't overall a dark anime. It was still overall light-hearted and fun show with engaging characters. They know when to use those dark moments when it's appropriate. Such as Seasons 3 and 5. Winx club also followed the same formula in seasons 1-4 and when Fate tried to make it what they THINK we want, it ended up flopping hard.
I watched the entire show, and I have always loved the bits you listed. I’ve always associated Sailor Moon with just that. When people only remember it for edgy moments or something like that, I just look back at the really awesome times they had that made it all the more important. And regardless, the sailors all found happiness for themselves.
This has pretty much inspired me to rewatch my favorite anime and T.V shows as a kid to check notes to see what I liked about them and understand what kind of media I actually like and prefer.
I really respect Gravity Falls for realizing they had two seasons and writing a two season story. I remember rumors running about that the studio wanted to greenlight a third season, but the writing team had already committed to a two-season story.
This was by Alex Hirsch himself. He didn't have much faith in himself and he was afraid of screwing up. Besides, he always planned to do 2 seasons only. What's more, he had so little faith that he himself said that he was about to cut in the first season
Lily, don't. Don't watch Miraculous. I'm saying this as a fan of Miraculous, you'll absolutely hate it. It has almost every trope you hate and the shipping has dragged on so long that it's become a meme. Don't bother with it.
Loved Miraculous, stopped watching after they started doing Steven Bombs and rearranging the order of episodes. Getting constantly spoiled because a character has a dramatic arc about gaining a super power five episodes after I already see them using it is _grating._ Oh yeah and the youtube theory videos about how hawkmoth isn't gabriel agreste no really stop laughing didn't help. I hear good ol' gabe is killing off family members with the defective peacock miraculous again to revive the family member he killed with the defective peacock miraculous. And he's heartbroken about it. Riveting stuff.
Honestly, this is exactly how I wanted Lily to cover Miraculous: standing far from the distance, barely poking it with a 10 mile pole, and at most making jokes at its expense. NEVER ACTUALLY COVER MIRACULOUS! Ever.
@@tboy355Same, the love story was cute at first but overstayed its welcome very quickly. Charakter potential got burned on the spot. Luckily I stopped watching so I still have positive memories of it =D
Best bit of writing advice I’ve ever gotten was from my college professor. He said in no uncertain terms to stop trying to be clever. Audiences aren’t (usually) so self unaware that they don’t know what the sky is, or what love is, or hell just what a bug is, if you’re writing a story, don’t change the name of the sky to ‘Dave’, just call it the sky.
Toffee was interesting because of the contrast against everything else, because he was a serious villain in a very unserious story. It made him feel threatening. The problem is that the writers took that as a sign that the audience likes serious storytelling...
It's kinda like when you put something kinda scary in a non horror game. Think of people who talk about how the eel from mario 64 traumatized them, but they also played resident evil since thay were kids no problem. The eel isnt even that scary looking , but It's crazy how context can effect people so much.
Serialized shows are meant to end. I think that when people use the idea of anime as a framework for their show they forget that anime is usually based off of a manga and takes years to get their seasons animated. Pokemon and one piece are outliers. And even then the manga will be picked apart so it doesn't bog down the whole series too much. You can't do that with an ongoing series because you have to start making stuff up on the fly and you try to shove in all the filler content that sorta connects one point to the next for a big climax instead of just resolving things quick. And most people get tired of seeing hints without proper payoff. I think that's why shows based on comics do better. Like batman the animated series or static shock. They already had a framework down for most of what went on in the show and they could choose to ignore what audiences didn't like from the books. There's a reason that spongebob is still on the air and that it took fairly oddparents so long to run it's coarse. No one is sitting on pins and needles just to see how it's going to end, they just want the next self contained episode. I realized after writing all that that it barely had anything to do with your comment. Sorry for rambling.
I only liked Toffee at first because I got more attached to an idea of what he could be. A less goofy character just there to play off the more fun Ludo and his minions. But it was clear soon after that that was not what we were getting. I just wish Star vs never tried to be serious. More of season 1 style episodes would have made for a very awesome show.
Same. I really liked the idea of Toffee being the "straight man" meaning that the characters he interacted with could get even weirder and goofier and he would be the one to give the contrast for specific types of gags. but no they tried to use him to make the rest of the world less fun.
I thought he was gonna be a straight man to Ludo's antics, similar to how Marco was to Star's...but nope! Gotta drop the silliness for "I am 14 and this is deep" plot
@Dranlia Toffee was just an attempt to make another villain ala Magneto or the ones in Korra or Killmonger or (sorta) Bismuth etc. ("villain has a point we totally agree with but he's too mean what with being a supervillain or just too violent so he needs to go down"). That addresses the "well ackshually toffe was right all along by trying to kill magic (which apparently was what was making mewmans do fantasy racism against monsters if not just the mhc)." They made their oh so menacing and deep villain have some past of combating fantasy racism from the Mewmans but unless you read supplemental info you won't know much of it. And more important Nefcy with the rest of them really insisted on it being up to Star and Marco with their followers to end fantasy racism (with the Monsters who aren't villains helpless and needing Mewmans who don't do fantasy racism to protect them). Making it ultimately argue that the Mewmans were never actually responsible for the plight of Monsters (doubled by the finale more or less redeeming a genocidal queen by petting her part Monster grandchild) and Toffee went wrong at being too mean to them rather than get Mewmans like Star to help him kill magic.
I feel like we could get a somewhat serious comedy, something like "what if shrek, except the main driver of the story is not an outcast, but the fairy tale princess unfolding her privileged position" (which is what I think the creator had in mind with the show) and then BOOM: we have a spinoff show with only season 1 stuff. IDK i feel like the show would saturate real quick if it only had episodic shenanigans and misadventures for four seasons and that a main story to go besides it would be nice for both ends, and I don't think it's that absurd that the creator wanted to write such a story, she just didn't do a great job at pacing it out properly (also she was definitely scared of adressing the social issues from Marco's side due to disney stakeholders' influence, which does be a shame). She had a vision, it only fell flat.
Yeah I’m rewatching s1 rn and I’m like wtf happened to Star? She was so bubbly and ADORABLE but then she became an anxiety ridden mess who was obsessed with Marco and her “higher moral purpose” like what?
On that point of bad writers getting upset that people figure out where their story is going ahead of time and attempting to rewrite it. I don’t know about anyone else, but if I managed to write a story where people could understand the characters and their goals and motivations well enough to accurately predict what might happen, I would consider that a rousing success! I would be overjoyed if someone caught on early that two characters would get together, or if they predicted a satisfying conclusion to a plot, because that means I actually wrote something coherent and satisfying to engage with!
Bad writers think good/smart writing is incredibly subversive and subtle, always pulling the rug out from the viewer's feet. Always being a few steps ahead of them
@@ahstiasummers5583 Yeah, except I like that rug where it is, thank you. Pulling it out from under me is certainly surprising, but it's also annoying as shit and can probably be considered an assault. Point is, there is something deeply satisfying about a story going directly where you expect it to go and I'm tired of every writer thinking it's smart to keep upending our expectations.
controvertially a really good example of this is bnha. literally everyone in the fandom either knew or heavily suspected that dabi was a todoroki (villain with obvious fake name who uses fire and has a strong hatred for heroes, endeavor in particular, along with foreshadowing that shouto had a dead/missing brother) the fun part was finding out when it was gonna be revealed, and what led him to this point. when it was revealed, nobody thought "wait what?" the main response from the fandom was "i fucking knew it!" which is great! everyone loved having it confirmed even though we knew!
One of my greatest pet peeves with SVTFOE is that when it started to be about fantasy racism, it continued to give one of the main characters who was in an ACTUAL MINORITY group the short end of the stick. Oh and also Star began treating him like less of a friend (much less love interest) and more of a lackey.
“the reason ‘will they won’t they’ is a stupid fucking plot line is because ‘they won’t’ is never the resolution. THEY ALWAYS DO.” YES!!! SCREAM IT TO HIGH HEAVEN LILY!!!
if I ever see another will they won't they' no scratch that IM going to make a will they won't they that will end in them NOT GETTING TOGETHER just to give people the resolution that was never going to happen. maybe it will make them realize that if these stories were actually serious for a moment that they wouldn't be together, then the story wouldn't be what they wanted
@@theflaminglitten-fo6jd the wont stuff kinda hapened to rex in generator rex and to Fin in AT, I think mordekai in regular show kinda had it to, though his and Fin's situation is more of a brake up idk if it count's
And what’s worse is that basing the plot around a “will they/won’t they” romance means you have nowhere to go once it’s resolved. Here’s a super dated example but “Moonlighting” had this problem. The first 2 seasons had relationship stuff (between the goofy male lead and the serious female lead). Then they get married in season 2, ending the question entirely… but then they had season 3 to fill. So then they had baby drama but it wasn’t as good because the main relationships between the characters had changed.
@@shelbybabcock8779 yeah this post confirmation vacuum is one of the things shows like she-ra suffer from, the creator is too afraid to have characters together early, because there is this fear people won't stay invested. tbh id much rather watch catra and adora dealing with their sht in the first half and not for whole duration of the show till last episodes of the final, I'd be delighted to see them work together and be happy for more than a season, that's one of the reasons i wanted a shera movie to happen, so we can see catradora in a relationship that isn't deathly swings of suffering and catra's mental explosions tho i must confess the will they won't they was one of the reasons why i became obsessed with the show at the first place, mostly because it's gay mcs and the "will" was not as certain as with starko(het)
As a hispanic person, i found Marco and his family's extensive stupid stereotyping hilarious... the first time. After a few episodes without depth it becomes VERY clear that this is how the writers view hispanic people... so thanks for bringing it up!
With each of these videos, I realize more and more how special Kim Possible was. Maybe that’s not the right way to word it. How it feels like a glass of water after the swill that has been the last few years of animation. How its villains were all so uniquely hilarious from one another, how Kim and Ron played off them, and off each other. When you were talking about Ludo initially, he immediately reminded me of Drakken, and I feel like that has been lost, due to Creator’s over-inflated egos. People remember Drakken, or Shego, or even Senor Junior because they are timelessly funny and charming. If Kim Possible ever had a Toffee type character, they’d be all but forgotten due to the cult of personality surrounding them.
I wonder if Danny Phantom will be similarly remembered as good, because I know I shouldn't trust my nostalgia of what I remember about it in case that turns out to be wrong (again lol).
I really loved Toffee, personally. I didn't find him boring and bland, but I do have a bias for sociopath-esque villians who blatanly manipulate people and pull the strings from behind the scenes to get what they want lol. That being said- I agree that his addition and the creator wanting the series to "get more serious" likely is where things began taking a turn for the worse. Very unfortunate that they made such a good character in a show where he didn't belong, and then tried to change the show to make it seem like he was meant to be there all along :/
The racism bit was really insightful. It actually got me thinking about a story of mine where I pulled the "monster racism" trope myself and the more I think about it, the more I realize I really shouldn't have. I'm gonna do a rewrite and fix it. So thanks for that. Also I'm glad you mentioned how people are incapable of dropping bad shows because they need closure. Fuck that with a rusty scalpel. I've dropped plenty of shows that I hated, because why would I waste my time when I could just watch good TV? Believe it or not I actually have some self-respect left.
For me, one of the dumbest twists SVTFOE did was making the Butterfly family pasty Eclipsa not the real heirs. That just completely negated every lesson Star learned in seasons 1 and 2 about being a leader and taking responsibility. A revelation should ADD value to past actions, not negate it. When Stan’s big secret was revealed in Gravity Falls, it didn’t make his time with Dipper and Mable any less meaningful, but instead added to it. Also, the only “they won’t” that comes to mind is Trixie and Spud from “American Dragon: Jake Long”.
I remember watching tons of theory videos from star vs back while it was airing and it wasn't until it got to midway through the 3rd season when I realized that the actual episodes themselves didn't even interest me that much and that I was only holding on because of memories from the first season and from those theory videos and it made me rethink all the adventure fantasy shows I used to watch💀
She would hate it because on top of everything discussed in this video (like the storyline about fake fantasy racism done by people who know nothing about real life racism) it is the cartoon that not only it does the pointlessly torturing young girls for exploitative reasons thing that she condemned in another video, but it goes way over the top with how cruel and damaging the actual torture is AND how many characters receive it that it makes She-Ra look good and Catra a sane and healthy individual. Seriously, screw that show and the horrible company that makes it.
Hbomberguy already did a video ripping RWBY to pieces years ago, and anyone who kept watching it after that were just masochists. If you know something sucks but keep watching anyway, it really is a time waster--just like it would be to make a video about any new additions to RWBY after hbomb's video. It'd be pointless. Anyone with two braincells to rub together knows RWBY sucks. Putting in the time to say something new about it when it was already shot with a cannon is not something a sane person would be motivated to do.
I'm pretty sure Sailor Moon's anime was airing while the manga was being published in a monthly magazine which is why it had a lot of episodes, but cartoons don't really have that issue, so creators remember the shows having a ton of episodes but don't seem to remember or care to learn why. Also Sailor Moon wrapped up it's story by the end of each season. There was never a "please greenlight another season" cliffhanger shot. You could watch the first season, stop there, and you wouldn't really miss anything because the first season is a contained story. Also Madoka Magica is the reason I mainly watch Pretty Cure, as it's really the only modern day magical girl show/franchise that hasn't sucked on Madoka's grimm dark tit. I can trust that it won't do that to me.
I think that the main problem with serialised shows is their reliance on intrigue. It's like Jay Exci said, intrigue is easy, you just have to hint at something happening, and then that's it, and you can save actually writing it til the finale. TV shows need to focus on having a good story NOW, regardless of what happens later down the line. Even movies are doing this now, with Star Wars and Marvel.
honestly, you’re not wrong. I adore a few things about star vs (mostly aesthetic), but even I’m sick of the post-anime stuff. The reason I dragged my feet on a story I’ve had in my head since high school it’s because the venn diagram of popular fandom stuff and what I actually wanted to write, would be a comfortable parking spot for a semi truck. someday I’ll learn to write stuff just because it makes me happy.
The "will they? won't they?" trope is annoying, but this reminds me of another bothersome trope where the feelings between the characters are left ambiguous. The show might tease and tease that the characters might like each other (or one likes the other, because the other makes it obvious they like the one) and they never reveal in the end whether they do like each other. It can go on for an entire movie or seasons of a show, but this makes me think that, similarly to the "will they? won't they?" trope, the creators purposely tease this to keep the shippers watching. And it's manipulative. Glad it's dying as a trope.
The only serialized show I've actually enjoyed in the past decade was Craig McCracken's Kid Cosmic - not because it was 'serious' or because it was dramatic, but because he knew from the start what he wanted the show to be and because nothing was dragged out. Its honestly refreshing because the show never lost its fun and hopeful tone and it actively fought *against* the worst tropes and traps of a superhero story. Its not perfect, as some characters are fairly underdeveloped and i wouldve loved to have more 'adventure of the week' eps just to get more fun character oneshots. But for what it is, its still miles ahead of the shows who drag their feet and lose track of the story and message theyre trying to make.
I always hated it when shows feel the need to make ships of their two main leads canon at the finale. I mean it makes sense in some cases (like in Avatar, where they’re so focused on fighting a war that they don’t have time for relationships). But in Star Vs The Forces of Evil, they had plenty of time and opportunity to get Starco moving
Another thing I've noticed in cartoons is that so many episodes don't have any substance. There's nothing to gain from watching them, not character development, not plot progression and not even entertainment. They can be skipped entirely and you can just get a sentence summary of the episode from someone else. If I was producing a show, I would try and make the most of every episode I had, not waffle around for three seasons. The shows with memorable episodes are the ones that are remembered, ie Gravity falls, the owl house and Avatar. Star vs has so many throwaway episodes that you can watch a 20 minute TH-cam video about it instead of watching it and absorb just as much information about the story. The point I'm trying to make is that these types of stories are unpopular because they are unsatisfying. The general public would rather watch a show that provides entertainment in every episode than 3 seasons of 'To be continued's '. Great video as always, Lily! ❤
Maybe it's due to me growing older, but seeing this push for darker content from insecure people taught me to be more prudent in the shows I watch nowadays. Steven Moffat is exceptionally guilty of this. If I were to elaborate, I'd be here all day. Long story short, I've not watched a single episode of Doctor Who since "The Angels Take Manhattan," and I have not felt like I missed out. If there's a lesson to learn, it would be to have a counterbalance in place when you plan to go darker and edgier. Know when to pump the breaks, and let your characters have happy moments. I'd go so far as to give them a happy ending so that their hardships weren't for nothing.
You've talked in the past about how kids don't fall for this bull, and I think Star Vs is a good example bc that was my experience with the show (was in the age demo when it came out, liked the first season, dropped it when I realized they had a boner for Toffee's shit). I think show runners who do this don't realize that most people, especially most kids, don't have any patience for shows that initially advertise themselves as episodic, then say "whoops, never mind, here's some poorly-written nonsense we want you to get emotionally invested in". It's purposefully deceptive advertising.
I actually chalk up a lot of Modern Adventure Cartoons (inspired by anime)'s writing failures not wholely on the producers being inspired by anime, but by these showrunners not studying or understanding what inspired the anime they grew up with: a LOT of anime is inspired by Japanese folklore/myths/history/pop fiction, but also popular western works like classic literature or comic books or French cinema. JJBA in particular was inspired by prog rock like King Crimson, Renaissance sculpture, and French movies, among other influences like Dracula or East of Eden. Most importantly, Japanese fiction like anime is defined by the eastern four act structure kishōtenketsu, which is specifically ANTI-conflict (in the sense that the story is about a sequence of events unravelling rather than two opposing dichotomies embodied via the protagonist and antagonist fighting and clashing/Obstacle Vs Intent - the latter can still feature like in shonen anime but it is NOT what the story is focused on). It's the difference between Superman punching Brainiac versus Superman trying to find his keys. It's why eastern fiction FEELS so different. RWBY, Owl House, Star Vs, TLOK, and countless other anime-inspired works all failed because they only copied the surface level details of anime (the styles), rather than study Japanese culture. They were made by incurious people!
First I think the owl house well constructed but cut s3 into special ep I like imagine you prepare perfect script for but studio top head nope we shorter you rewrite the well construct show
The real problem many of these shows with anime inspirations... is that they never got to understand the concept of a "story arc". Mangas have clear story arcs and, if the manga still is popular after that, it gets to continue, but many mangaka understand that their stories may end with that arc, so they try to complete as much of the story as possible. If you get popular enough to continue, good for you. Now you can tell that next story, but it is never guaranteed. So, most arcs in manga and anime NEED to have satisfying resolutions and actually make sense, if you want to have the next arc happen. Avatar actually did that fine enough, because it undestood the episodic nature of both children TV and anime. The original Teen Titans also did it well, because most of the show was also just fun episodic stories. But, when you try to tell a hybrid story like these, if you don't have clear the objetive of the story, the story will die. The japanese industry survives like that BECAUSE they put a knife to the authors necks, so they have to think about how long they can do that. Those stories last long because they survive to that, constantly, and, if they fail, they die.
For every anime that gets popular in the West, there are a hundred incredibly niche things that are only known to their fetish community or a tiny band of ultrafans. People who take inspiration from anime would do well to remember that.
tbf Japan is somewhat unique in that they can *exclusively* cater to these superfans and still be a success as well. There's even a genre built around "Japanese people who prefer 80s American action shows" so you get things like Licensed by Royalty and Mad Bull that are just anime versions of Jason Bourne and Dirty Harry. So when they try to pull off something that laser focused _here_ (like all those 80s comedy anime that were badly localized because it relies *so much* upon knowledge of a specific Japanese region and its culture... But gets changed to burgers and fried foods) Basically you can only do that if you explicitly center the show on LA/NY/SF, which thanks to long running sitcoms people already know these landmarks, try it with literally *any* other city and it wouldn't succeed. But you can find a mountain of SoL/school battle anime that succeed off of "realistic landmark and Cultural knowledge" settings from said regions. So these coastal writers try doing the same thing with earth based settings and just confuse the shit outta the average watcher. Boston based writers are especially guilty of this (just check wikis on any city based show not obviously NY), thinking they have the international importance of NYC These writers see this success barren of Cultural context and think you can straight import that style into US TV with no changes.
This kind of reminds me of how people would get mad at every new iteration of the TMNT because it was "too goofy". The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, who eat pizza and say "Cowabunga", being too goofy? They don't even realize that the original comic was meant to be a satire of those dark, edgy comics too lol
@@celestemunda7143 According to Saberspark, she enjoyed the idea of playing around with the series in the future. She kept things open ended for that possibility.
Hey, wait a minute! Why has no one taken inspiration from Jojo's yet!? We got an Initial D reference in Western animation before we got that!? Seriously, a show where everyone has a gimmicky superpower and the way to beat your opponent is to out-think them would be amazing. Teach kids critical-thinking while being fun. Or if you want to aim for a higher age range, teach the teenagers critical-thinking while being fun and also some drama. Maybe even mix it in with a phenomenon kids/teens might know all too well, like puberty or gifted kid syndrome.
Seriously glad someone brought that up! Initial D had far better drama than these jokers came up with. If you want to know more, watch Initial D! It’s awesome!
I want to see a cartoon where the only thing the writers are "serious" about is having some serious fun bcs that's all people (and children!) need to enjoy something or think fondly of it
I believe you misunderstand why One Piece is that long. In Japan, mangas like One Piece are published in weekly magazines and chapters are judged week to week by the audience. The author of One Piece originally had the intention of making One Piece wayyyyyy shorter, but the series was so popular that he just continued. The goal of Shonen Jump manga is to last as long as they are popular and One Piece achieved that so much that it stills runs to this day. But the thing is... One Piece works because most of it is just dumb fun. One Piece is a extremely goofy story, full of chapters and moments where the only point is to be entertaining. One Piece has a serious story, but the majority of the point is going in a fun journey with these guys. Like, honestly, a lot of the point of One Piece is to be extremely fun. That is why it survived so long in a magazine as competitive as Shonen Jump, where stories that underperform can die in a couple of weeks. Like, people like One Piece for the same reason they like long running comedies, in some ways. They just like spending time with these characters and see what they are doing.
@LilianOrchard Yep, that is actually not a bad analogy. I started watching One Piece when I was young and I kept watching because the story was fun. There were parts where the story had serious messages and such, and when it did, those are great. But the general pleasure of this story is just following characters that are fun.
My exact thought half way into the Toffee arc was this is weirdly grim for a show who's main character shoots Narwals out of a magic wand . I had no idea how much worse it would get
I still think that Spongebob summed up the 'mature, no kids allowed' mentality shared by fans and tv shows with its episode grandma's kisses, where the moral is basically to stay in touch with the things your inner child likes, regardless if cynical assholes think it's not 'adult'
If these people would go back and actually rewatch the shows they loved as kids they'd see that they reveled in the absurdity. You mentioned Digimon and the villains in that were "I'm going to bask in the hilarity of my comical evilness" type characters, the fact that they embrace the villainy is part of enjoyment. It's hilarious but it's played straight, but people seem to miss that now.
Some of the more famous bad digimon include, but are not limited to; A monkey Elvis Pressly, a giant murderous teddy bear, a litteral clown, and sentient golden poop.
The whole “I want a dark serious show because I want something mature” is so annoying to me because it’s reached the point where there is almost NOTHING fun and lighthearted to watch. I’ve been stuck in a rut because I don’t have the energy and brain power to watch something labelled “mature” and “serious” and it’s exhausting having to watch those things now. That’s why I’m so desperate for shows that are actually slice of life. Life is miserable enough, I don’t want to watch another character be miserable instead. And even for people who might enjoy those type of “mature” animations, it gets so repetitive and stale. Just because I remember enjoying Gravity Falls doesn’t mean I need ten of those shows shoved down my throat. I just want soft family dynamics where there is no stupid drama or angst. Is that too much to ask?
Came back after life gave me a little breathing room and watched the first episode of Molly Mcgee; safe to say I'm hooked. Thanks for the recommendation exactly what I needed :D
Well, technically speaking Batman the Animated Series wasn't serialized, it was about as episodic as they come and still very dark and serious. Jackie Chan Adventures was Heavily serialized but also lighthearted and campy, only really getting dark around the season finales. Xiaolin Showdown was all of that, but none of it at the same time, it dealt with harsh topics, betrayal, loneliness, isolation, and greed, but it was never anything less than an absolute goof. All I'm saying is, maybe it's not the concept that keeps letting you down, maybe the writers just suck.
I think for to be a good Fantasy adventure show is to “be serious, but don’t take yourself to seriously.” Which sounds contradictory but hear me out. What I loved about Kipo and Avatar is how they balanced the serious moments with light hearted comedy. They didn’t have the characters be overly dramatic Edgelords, who put too much blame on themselves for an honest mistake or something that happened ages ago or beyond their control.
Honestly I would've not mind if SVTFOE had stayed as a fun episodic show with Star and Marco fighting a different monster every episode and Ludo basically being like the Dr. Claw of the show. It would be like a Saturday morning cartoon from the '80s. Not every show needs to be serious and story driven like Gravity Falls to be good.
The sad part about this video for me is I really don't disagree. I loved this show for the first 2 seasons and it will always hold a place in my heart, but I have never rewatched the show. Which for me is odd since I usually reexperince anything I can. The first two seasons no matter the problems they had felt focused, after toffee was dead its was just kinda serious but no substance.
I cannot tell you how much these videos help as a guidelines of what not to do when writing. People can complain all they want but honest criticism is better than sugarcoating bad decisions, keep up the great work.
I wonder if the other reason why the Star fandom gravitated towards Toffee so much over Ludo was that he was coded to be conventionally attractive vs someone that was coded to be a goblin person...
I'm glad Madoka Magica came up in this video, specifically in a screen shot talking about bad things, not because it's bad, but because it's like Watchmen: I god damn hate it because it ruined everything else. Serioussly, 'Tragical girl' worked once and I hate that nothing else seems to be able to have fun anymore.
@@ateliermink6340 Also includes pleanty of moments of hope and goodness to prove the world is actually worth saving, a thing so many tragial girl shows don't bother with.
@Atelier Mink Magical Girl Site is an anime I tried years ago, and is basically everything you described. Went way harder than Madoka with torturing the main characters without enough hope to justify things narratively. Now nobody seems to discuss it except for its flaws, while Madoka is still a staple of the magical girl genre to this day
I loved the first 3 seasons, sure it had some flaws when it started to enter the shipping era, but it was HEAVILY carried by the well-made arcs, villains and the whole surroundings filled with great characters. Season 4 however really destroyed everything tho. I loved Eclipsa and Globcor and how Star became more mature, but everything outside that fell flat with a garbage villain and rushed horrifying finale. I will always not count the last season because of how good the first 3 were
I know its probably stupid and irrelevant, but Shadow the Hedgehog was not considered bad because it made the Sonic series too edgy or serious, the reason Shadow the Hedgehog is incredibly infuriating and hated is because you need to replay it ten times for the true ending from the very beginning, meaning you have to play Westopolis ten times and complete incredibly annoying challenges to get certain endings. Of course, my boy Shadow is the epitome of edge, but he is certainly not what makes Sonic bad and I do not believe he is comparable with Toff' cuz at least Shadow's debut game does not leave what Shadow's goals are, what Shadow is, and his importance to the overall story of Sonic Adventure 2 a mystery to solve in another game.
Sonic fan born in time for that game here No it's both, the edge that the fans kept asking for since like 1992 has handed to them uncompromised for once and wow, it sucks
@TechBlade9000 •Was also born in time for the game. You're crazy if you didn't think it was funny as hell that the gave a 3 foot cartoon rodent guns. It is most certainly not the edginess that made it a bad game. It's like saying that the bright colors and pop music in FE Sessions is what made it a bad game. It's not a bad game, it was just not what was expected.
That comment about leaving a show behind when it doesn't hold your interest anymore is honestly something people need to do more of. If you REALLY wanna know how the show is doing after falling off...just read the wiki page. Takes WAY less time and effort than watching something you hate.
This perspective is really interesting - I personally have almost no patience for characters who refuse to change and grow (or for will they/won't they romances, which is just a sub-category of that), and as a result I tend to avoid sitcoms almost entirely unless someone I care about wants to watch one with me. I wonder if part of the problem with the shows you're talking about is committing to a plot-driven model but not committing to a time limit? To give two examples of shows I really like that manage to balance plot drama and episodic hijinks pretty well: _Avatar_ understood from the beginning that it was a three-season show (and that if they got a fourth it would essentially just be an epilogue to the main story), so it was able to pace the character development and the plot structure so that they grew in sync with each other. Meanwhile, _Agents of SHIELD_ never knew how many seasons it would have, but the show structured its plot into arcs that led into each other, so that at least three times a season you would have a sense of resolution even while moving on to something new.
I feel you on a deep level it’s hard to find any media these days that’s not this I even tired to swap to regular books and the most recent book I read literally tortured the protagonist to death only to be brought back to life just to live in a mental hell I had to stop reading and was over it it was a series and I was no willing to read anymore and this book is so highly recommended
Here’s the issue with serialization/continuous storylines… people think these day think it automatically means it’s darker or more serious. Here’s the bigger picture …. These kinds of shows tends to treat each episode like a chapter in a book. All part of the same story. Episodes might have some self-contained elements, but for the most part, they're pieces or fragments of a much bigger season and series narrative. The problem is most of the serialized Tv cartoon shows we see these days, when wanting to do a continuing story, make it darker or more edger, or takes itself too seriously. Going to Pokémon for example, the show was about Ash’s journey and having fun. There were serious or sad episodes, but the majority of the show was light hearted and fun. Panty and Stocking was episodic but slowly started to become more seralized but it still was just silly as fuck, bell parically making fun of serious moments by having the most insane plot elements like giant underware (and other things I won’t say cause TH-cam will slap me stupid) Ducktales had a countuning plot lines and while moments were emtional the show was still just about wacky adventures with race cars, lasers and aero-planes. However shows like Steven universe, Star, and fuck ton of the popular shows when becoming serialized got serious…. Which is honestly sullying the whole whole prespective on seralized shows. And listen if I want a drama I’ll go to a Broadway show or rewatch Sense and Sensibility
This is going to sound super gatekeep-y, but whatever: It's super weird that western anime weebs are so obsessed with anime to the point that they actively sabotage their own works by mimicking anime tropes to the point they fill their shows with nonsense and filler that ruins the show, when the whole reason filler was even a thing was because most anime was based on serialized manga and the animators often caught up with the author faster than they could write. Hell, even ANIME CREATORS doN't like the filler, and they often do their best to get rid of it wherever and however possible - best example being Dragon Ball Z vs Kai, which literally aimed to make the anime as close to the source material as possible by removing the filler. And, again, this is gatekeep-y, but anime fans should know this stuff. They should know filler sucks. They should know filler isn't popular, even with biggest fans of the series. So why sabotage your own work copying the most universally despised part of anime??? I cannot fathom it.
Still adore the show because it’s nostalgia for me at this point, but definitely they totally messed up thinking they were gonna get 7 seasons to tell some “powerful story” that felt really basic anyways
I liked Toffee as a villain he was this ambiguous force of nature to me but I have to agree in hindsight he just did not fit the tone of the show at all
When people blame steven universe's bad ending on it not getting a 6th season it confuses me because it did get 6 seasons for the original run. Season 1 is 52 episodes because they combined two seasons and aired it as one. So the original run got its 6 seasons it was promised the crew just couldn't add a 7th to the original run. I reality steven universe was given the exact number of season they asked for they just wasted their time.
You know…. It just hit me how much these TV shows play on the honeymoon phase to get people to watch them. Just: have a good level and memories that people keep hoping the series will get back to so they keep watching. Not just sunk cost. But that. It’s what kept me watching Star Vs and Tangled, and what I’ve realised is never the case so I’m starting to drop shit the second they go bad. I’m gonna go drown in icecream
This video pretty much explains why Janna is my favorite character in the show. She was a fun troll at the start, and she... pretty much stayed exactly the same to the very end. By the end of the series, I just wanted more Janna, since she was the only part of the show I was consistently enjoying.
Ludo is my favorite character and I think his transition into a more competent and scary villain was one of the few good things to come out of Star vs' serialization. He was already good in season 1, but watching him tame a giant spider, a giant eagle and an army of rats was so cool. Buff Frog is my second favorite character. It was such a bummer that seasons 3 and 4 forgot about the two of them. Writing tip: don't drop the good characters you already have in order to explore less interesting ones (*ahem* the Magic High Commission and Mina).
This exactly! I feel like Ludo truly got a chance to shine in season 2, becoming more three-dimensional, giving us a glimpse into how his family and home life has affected him in The Hard Way, and having a key role as an antagonist in Battle For Mewni, the most of a threat he's ever been! the ending of BFM could have (and SHOULD have) been a turning point for his character: he's lost everything, he's back to square one, and Toffee's essentially shattered him with the revelation that even after all his growth, Ludo's success was never really earned, just given to him temporarily only for Toffee to take back when the time is right. It would have been the perfect opportunity for redemption, maybe the Butterfly family decides to make him repay his debt by doing work in the castle, or he decides he wants to try and make something of himself of his own volition, just SOMETHING to keep him in the story and expand upon the character growth they've given him. But no, they throw him back into space to slowly lose his mind on a garbage planet and never have story relevance again while they focus on fan favorites such as. seahorse and quirky guy.
@@sqweegee5299 I hate that episode in which Dennis is trying to help Ludo and at the end they hint that Ludo is going to come back as a villain, but he never does. 💀 His character doesn't even get an ending. He's bound to lose his mind all alone for the rest of his life (especially since inter-dimensional portals don't exist anymore after the finale) which is a huge disrespect to Ludo fans. He deserved a better fate.
The MHC were kinda interesting as single characters (well okay maybe not Hekapoo since she didn't have a solid characterization and only took off in the fandom for shipping junk/a firey waifu).
This one encapsulated what I've always liked about your work: You have a fantastic ability to diagnose writing and production problems in ways that get me thinking about my own media habits. I've gotten really tired of writers trying to emulate anime. One of my recent favourite anime had a tight 12-episode romantic plot that ended with the Gay Princesses in an unambiguous relationship. How about they emulate that, for a change.
I think that's a good way to summarize the problem: You get your big serious villain, your big serious story that you liked in your animes and now what, what was all that for. As a growing artist i have learned to ask myself why do i do it, for example: I want this character to do JoJo like poses, but why? Is it "because i like JoJo and JoJo is a good show that does that?" No I'm doing it because the way i wrote this character she is someone who would unironically do JoJo like poses, because she is a showoman and loves to be extra. Why does this setting have giant robots? Because i like Mecha animes and Power rangers and they do it so i have to? No, i do it because this setting is about fighting giant monsters so why not also make giant Mecha to fight them. It's not about "it's what they do so i have to do it", it's about why they do it and how that can help your writing.
I really hate how shows love getting serious when it starts out fun and light hearted. It's why I couldn't stick with Adventure Time. Also hate the waffling when it comes to romance.
This sort of feeds back into a question that I've had for a while, and that you've brought up before. Why do people want everything to be the same? Why do people want the "objectively correct" template when that, by design of we as a species, does not exist. It's laughable that people keep looking for it but that defeats the point of entertainment. It's all subjective. The focus on "seriousness" kills more entertainment then it saves, at least from a subjective view. I keep seeing shit recommended to me about the DC Snyderverse and how people keep saying it's "perfect and that he needs one more film to finish it" (ignoring the fact that he had that, and chose to blow it on fragging sequel baiting), but I think I'd struggle to find someone who thinks that the depictions of any of those characters is the best depiction of them, the seriousness boggs those movies down so much I think it's making a tunnel to the earth's core.
something is so therapeutic about watching people SCREAM on the internet why bother taking out my anger by shouting at people when someone else has already done it better than I could ever do plus you get to learn new stuff all the time about writing n all that
On the topic of anime having dragged out pacing, A lot of action anime now a days, like Demon Slayer or Jujutsu Kaiser have faster pacing than the “golden age of anime.” Even Anime realizes that their past shows weren’t perfect.
I watched the show all the time when I was a kid and even I agree that toffee was really bad I hated him I was like "when are they going to bring back lotto" I kind of checked out after the second season and I only ever popped in because people were talking about. BTW Hey Lily do you have any writing advice for writing a organic gay side plot where they meet at the beginning of the story as frenemies?
I don't understand why people want serious adult cartoons when Adult Swim exists, a TV block dedicated to adult animations. But they can't be satisfied by that because 99% of those shows are comedies. They want their egdy and gory anime in their kids cartoons, which is what lead to Samurai Jack season 5, which got boats loads of praise for 3 episodes before everyone realized the show was kind of sallow and bad.
@@skippyskippy7687 but the code was already cracked years ago. There were plenty of successful adult animations that weren't entirely comedies, and the reason so many shows are comedies is that it's the most universally appealing genre.
After all of this time my favourite disney cartoon is still phineas and ferb, it rarely went too far out of it's wheel house and was just fun, shows being fun is nice
@@mysmallnoman I can disagree with some of her positions on anime while still agreeing with the broader point that the overabundance of shounen influence in the millennial anime zeitgeist is detrimental to its use as inspiration for tight storytelling. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@mysmallnoman Why are you still replying to me. Whether you're right or not about how much anime Lily's seen, your beef with her is irrelevant to both the point she made and the points I made.
I honestly wouldn’t blame you if you don’t do a video on Miraculous Ladybug, everything about it has gotten so ridiculously stupid that I stopped watching it years ago.
One of the more interesting things about all of these people who made western shows based on anime that never go anywhere is... Anime mostly has stopped doing that? Modern anime is based on hitting you hard, fast, and rapid with plot and changes. Anime itself went "nah that's actually shit" and people just... Decided to continue to tell stories as if it was the 90s.
I don't agree that Anime stopped doing that, and more they change their approach to doing that. Episodes a season are now not long enough, so Anime either have to rush a conclusion at the end because the show starts out like most Anime, as in way too much for little time they now have OR ends on literal nothing beginning for the next season to be Green lit
I definitely agree that Star vs. wasted it's time and dragged out everything as if it had endless amount of time to work with in it's future. I was actually mad when I heard creator lady say she ended show the way she did so fanfics writers had stuff to play with and her if she got to do more of this show in the future. And considering the huge list of problems this show had. Problems where some would be valid criticism still but would have much lesser impact - if show reminded mostly episodic. Sadly this show decided to "get serious" but with very poor understanding of what that means (which this very video does point out in excellent ways). You could see it for example in how this show treated it's own world building. As in show didn't give a fuck what it set up for it's characters and their backgrounds and did whatever they felt in the moment. Best example of victim of this is king River who went from being member of noble family to playing in mud simpleton so they could make him a butt of a joke. Or how show forgot that Star has a lot of relatives who would take a loooooooooooot of issues with her just handing throne over to Eclipsa. Show wanted to be more serious. Yet, it didn't take it's own writing serious enough to work with things they established. Instead they ignore stuff because it was easier then figuring out solutions. It was easier to present us with mystery boxes over and over again with mix of "will they won't they". It was easier to that instead of figuring out more for individual characters and over all story.
There's always that backwards hook when it comes to mostly white or opposite race people when it comes to representing characters who are a different race than them in their cartoons. In that when they do represent a character of an ethnic minority there's always 1 stereotype that ends up not only being racist but also promotes that kind of shit in fandom. Y'know the shit where everybody had that racist head cannon about Camilla being abusive to Luz? Well the creator didn't make it better giving her a damn sandle, yes the character in question was a weird dick who needed to get beat up but the Spanish mom with a slipper is a harmful stereotype that adds to the abuse in ethnic household stereotype. As an Hispanic man I know while normalized abusive behavior is Normalized especially parts of my community sadly they shouldn't shine alight on it in a joking manner especially when Camila is a breath of fresh air. Especially when it's star vs and the whole of Marcos house is a fucking desert.
I'll be honest it took me three watches to notice the Miss Kobayashi dragon maid reference. And I definitely feel called out because I think that show is absolutely adorable. But I do definitely despise the perv pandering on baby characters
Yeah as a previous fan of miraculous ladybug DO NOT WATCH IT my hyper fixate brain finally fell off and I am very happy because now I don’t have to suffer through that torture anymore. The only reason people keep suggesting it to you is because they want to hear you tear it to pieces . I mean I would enjoy that very much, but I cannot you to such atrocities
Soap operas and serialized "mystery" shows (Lost, Supernatural) seem to have this same problem. The issue I've noticed is that they pull in traumatic backstories from nowhere and then try to justify them using small, explainable oddities from earlier episodes. The only good twist backstories I've seen are ones which planned (and hinted at) it from the very beginning (e.g. Gravity Falls and Grunkle Stan). Thank you for putting to words something which allowed me to realize why I dislike the recent episodes of Helluva Boss. And yes, I realize I'm commenting a lot on your videos as I work through your backlog. In my mind, that's a good sign I'm going to enjoy your future videos!
Honestly I'm reminded of Archie comics Sonic. It was a comic book series that really didn't take itself seriously and full of jokes and gags. As the comic went on they started exploring the characters more, started fleshing out the world more, and we began to understand despite the colorful cast this is a seriously messed up place. The best part was there was no character introduced that changed things. Honestly it was the reincarnation of the series main villain after his death. Ignoring some of the very weird things, I feel that's what these cartoons tend to do. Have these fun characters, in these exotic places, and fun stories. But the fun as to be balanced. So dramatic tone shifts in intervals is good I think. But ya shouldn't lose what grabbed everyone's attention.
Shows like these just remind me how fucking vital writers are in animation. If you want your show to have serious themes and a serialized story, fine, but get a fucking writer who will know how to convey that shit better than your artists scribbling the 809th Sailor Moon reference. I’m not sure why so many cartoons feel like a script is the absolute worst thing to use.
Not to even mention there was clearly no story planned they wrote it on the knee and pretended everything went "according to plan" even tho everything from show to even merch or books proves otherwise, from time i was into this show there was like 50 different plot points and foreshadowings that went nowhere because they forgot they wrote them in. This cartoon existed strictly for Star x Marco romance because it's self insert relationship of creator and her husband, it's just creepy glorified fanfiction about two adults and their kid OCs, nothing more. And don't even come at me with "but Disney cancelled it" if you know number of seasons is uncertain you just write seasons the way each one can work as conclusion, i have no idea why every Disney show creator writes story for 50 seasons + 3 spin offs and theatrical release movie and then gets surprised their "masterpiece" gets 3 or 4 seasons because main target doesn't watch it as if this never happened before. If you want your epic anime adventure fine but fore Christ's sake write the story, main plot points and twists first while keeping in mind you're creating story for kids aged 8 to 13 to enjoy, it's basic development process you're being paid for.
Yeah it would be fun if more people took inspiration from JoJo to make their shows but you see when your story is something simple like "evil vampire (or his boyfriend) kills/hurts/curses the dad/mom of the protagonist so they get pissed and kill him while also saving the world", or "the protagonist is literally just living his life in a small town but there's a serial killer that kills his friend, so he gets pissed and kills him while also saving a lot of future victims" you can't bait people with big reveals and cliff-hangers. Which means the appeal of your show must come from writing excellent monster-of-the-week encounters with bad guys that have unique powers and personalities in order to make them ALL memorable and entertaining. But that takes both hard work and talent so...
I think the only show that i watchet where the "will they, wont they" dillema ended with "they wont" was regular show. And it was still agonizing to watch.
Does Gravity Falls count? I mean Dipper was in love with Wendy since episode 5 and they didn't end up together. And for the record, Gravity Falls did the "Just Friends" approach LEAGUES better than Regular show.
@@eyeballdude9061 Gravity falls is very different imo. There never was a "will they." They were never going to. Everyone except like 5 weirdos knew that. Dipper's entire arc in Gravity Falls is wound around learning how to cope with his confusing, unreciprocated feelings in a mature way. Dipper's arc is like my favorite thing ever. I love that show so much
@@kakroom3407 Guess I'm one of those five. When I watched Gravity Falls, at the time it was actually the first show I ever watched were it didn't end up "will they". I was 11 when the show released, and I was so used to shows ending the series on a couple ending up together that it surprised me when "Into the Bunker" released. Don't get me wrong. Even as a kid, I loved the direction they went. It still hits hard when Dipper asks Mabel how everything could feel so amazing and terrible at the same time.
A lot of adult animation fans act like older siblings who can’t handle sharing their toys with the younger children. And they want shows that are unbearable for children for some reason but instead of making their own trash they break everyone’s things.
The notion of SVTFOE as a magical girl anime style would have been better imo if they stuck to magical girl formula. Most magical girl animes (aside from grim dark like madoka or magical girl raising) are monster of the week with a focus on the magical girls growth. There may be some plots that come back (like in sailor moon her romance with tuxedo mask) but the stories usually start and stop in one episode and the continuity is just the build up to the big bad that's making all the monsters of the week
To use my useless writing degree(s) a bit here:
Most ppl have a bad memory when it comes to the stuff they like -- esp stuff they liked as children!
One exercise I talk ppl thru wherein they say "I wanna make a show like Sailor Moon" I make them go back and actually watch the damn show, and come back with notes on the elements they wanna bring into their own writing.
Sailor Moon example:
1) I like the themes of friendship and found family
2) I like the fun, stylish, period appropriate but also modern fashions
3) I like that they show that theres hope at the end of sad moments and doesn't dwell on them
4) I like the tender LGBT+ romances
5) I like bright colors, cute animal sidekicks and just the fun stuff
Keep in mind, I've never watched more than a few eps of Sailor Moon so I cant really comment on it's quality, but this is the vibe I get from most of what it's worst imposters are /trying/ to do but failing to achieve. It's fine you want to make strawberry cake, but you gotta learn what makes a strawberry cake tastes good before trying to make your own, or else you end up with the cheap sugar stuff that looks okay from a distance but ultimately leaves a bad taste in ppls mouths. Good stories rely on solid structure not pure decoration! Always make sure you got solid enough stuff to hold your story together
Yup, the ultimate advice--learn the rules, so you know where to break them.
as a sailor moon fan, yup, the bond between the main cast is the main appeal and that of course is developed through the slice of life antics. that's why when the reboot anime tried following the manga's serialized drama format it flopped. we j want to watch the girls be silly teenagers and look at outlandish fashion!!
Another thing that what made 90s Sailor Moon also memorable that modern shows fail to realize that it had dark/mature elements and moments but it wasn't overall a dark anime. It was still overall light-hearted and fun show with engaging characters. They know when to use those dark moments when it's appropriate. Such as Seasons 3 and 5. Winx club also followed the same formula in seasons 1-4 and when Fate tried to make it what they THINK we want, it ended up flopping hard.
I watched the entire show, and I have always loved the bits you listed. I’ve always associated Sailor Moon with just that. When people only remember it for edgy moments or something like that, I just look back at the really awesome times they had that made it all the more important. And regardless, the sailors all found happiness for themselves.
This has pretty much inspired me to rewatch my favorite anime and T.V shows as a kid to check notes to see what I liked about them and understand what kind of media I actually like and prefer.
I really respect Gravity Falls for realizing they had two seasons and writing a two season story. I remember rumors running about that the studio wanted to greenlight a third season, but the writing team had already committed to a two-season story.
That makes sense; a show based around mysteries needs to actually resolve those mysteries otherwise it will just piss people off.
Hell, Amphibia even did that too. Braly went in knowing his show was a 3 season story and as such, the show wrapped itself up concisely.
This was by Alex Hirsch himself. He didn't have much faith in himself and he was afraid of screwing up. Besides, he always planned to do 2 seasons only. What's more, he had so little faith that he himself said that he was about to cut in the first season
@@arxuskings1986 That's way more self awareness than what other showrunners display.
@@MagicMan1_1_1 You kidding me? Season 3 was DOGSHIT compared to the other two.
Lily, don't. Don't watch Miraculous. I'm saying this as a fan of Miraculous, you'll absolutely hate it. It has almost every trope you hate and the shipping has dragged on so long that it's become a meme. Don't bother with it.
Loved Miraculous, stopped watching after they started doing Steven Bombs and rearranging the order of episodes. Getting constantly spoiled because a character has a dramatic arc about gaining a super power five episodes after I already see them using it is _grating._
Oh yeah and the youtube theory videos about how hawkmoth isn't gabriel agreste no really stop laughing didn't help. I hear good ol' gabe is killing off family members with the defective peacock miraculous again to revive the family member he killed with the defective peacock miraculous. And he's heartbroken about it. Riveting stuff.
Especially when the main character is a weird creep
Honestly, this is exactly how I wanted Lily to cover Miraculous: standing far from the distance, barely poking it with a 10 mile pole, and at most making jokes at its expense.
NEVER ACTUALLY COVER MIRACULOUS! Ever.
I gave up with this show after season 2 😭
@@tboy355Same, the love story was cute at first but overstayed its welcome very quickly. Charakter potential got burned on the spot. Luckily I stopped watching so I still have positive memories of it =D
Best bit of writing advice I’ve ever gotten was from my college professor. He said in no uncertain terms to stop trying to be clever. Audiences aren’t (usually) so self unaware that they don’t know what the sky is, or what love is, or hell just what a bug is, if you’re writing a story, don’t change the name of the sky to ‘Dave’, just call it the sky.
That might be good advice, but I'm obsessed with Dave now.
@@courtlandfargo5251all hail Dave
May Dave shine gloriously for us all...
Dave my beloved
And thinking like that i why stoies like velma exist
Toffee was interesting because of the contrast against everything else, because he was a serious villain in a very unserious story. It made him feel threatening.
The problem is that the writers took that as a sign that the audience likes serious storytelling...
It's kinda like when you put something kinda scary in a non horror game.
Think of people who talk about how the eel from mario 64 traumatized them, but they also played resident evil since thay were kids no problem. The eel isnt even that scary looking , but It's crazy how context can effect people so much.
Context and Contrast.
"'Being serious' is not a goal. It's a method you use to achieve your goal."
Great line
You hit the nail of this. SVTFO doesn't have serious. It's ok to have funny and goofy shows from time to time.
Serialized shows are meant to end. I think that when people use the idea of anime as a framework for their show they forget that anime is usually based off of a manga and takes years to get their seasons animated. Pokemon and one piece are outliers. And even then the manga will be picked apart so it doesn't bog down the whole series too much. You can't do that with an ongoing series because you have to start making stuff up on the fly and you try to shove in all the filler content that sorta connects one point to the next for a big climax instead of just resolving things quick. And most people get tired of seeing hints without proper payoff. I think that's why shows based on comics do better. Like batman the animated series or static shock. They already had a framework down for most of what went on in the show and they could choose to ignore what audiences didn't like from the books.
There's a reason that spongebob is still on the air and that it took fairly oddparents so long to run it's coarse. No one is sitting on pins and needles just to see how it's going to end, they just want the next self contained episode.
I realized after writing all that that it barely had anything to do with your comment. Sorry for rambling.
I only liked Toffee at first because I got more attached to an idea of what he could be. A less goofy character just there to play off the more fun Ludo and his minions. But it was clear soon after that that was not what we were getting.
I just wish Star vs never tried to be serious. More of season 1 style episodes would have made for a very awesome show.
Same. I really liked the idea of Toffee being the "straight man" meaning that the characters he interacted with could get even weirder and goofier and he would be the one to give the contrast for specific types of gags. but no they tried to use him to make the rest of the world less fun.
I thought he was gonna be a straight man to Ludo's antics, similar to how Marco was to Star's...but nope! Gotta drop the silliness for "I am 14 and this is deep" plot
@Dranlia Toffee was just an attempt to make another villain ala Magneto or the ones in Korra or Killmonger or (sorta) Bismuth etc. ("villain has a point we totally agree with but he's too mean what with being a supervillain or just too violent so he needs to go down"). That addresses the "well ackshually toffe was right all along by trying to kill magic (which apparently was what was making mewmans do fantasy racism against monsters if not just the mhc)." They made their oh so menacing and deep villain have some past of combating fantasy racism from the Mewmans but unless you read supplemental info you won't know much of it. And more important Nefcy with the rest of them really insisted on it being up to Star and Marco with their followers to end fantasy racism (with the Monsters who aren't villains helpless and needing Mewmans who don't do fantasy racism to protect them). Making it ultimately argue that the Mewmans were never actually responsible for the plight of Monsters (doubled by the finale more or less redeeming a genocidal queen by petting her part Monster grandchild) and Toffee went wrong at being too mean to them rather than get Mewmans like Star to help him kill magic.
I feel like we could get a somewhat serious comedy, something like "what if shrek, except the main driver of the story is not an outcast, but the fairy tale princess unfolding her privileged position" (which is what I think the creator had in mind with the show) and then BOOM: we have a spinoff show with only season 1 stuff.
IDK i feel like the show would saturate real quick if it only had episodic shenanigans and misadventures for four seasons and that a main story to go besides it would be nice for both ends, and I don't think it's that absurd that the creator wanted to write such a story, she just didn't do a great job at pacing it out properly (also she was definitely scared of adressing the social issues from Marco's side due to disney stakeholders' influence, which does be a shame). She had a vision, it only fell flat.
Yeah I’m rewatching s1 rn and I’m like wtf happened to Star? She was so bubbly and ADORABLE but then she became an anxiety ridden mess who was obsessed with Marco and her “higher moral purpose” like what?
On that point of bad writers getting upset that people figure out where their story is going ahead of time and attempting to rewrite it. I don’t know about anyone else, but if I managed to write a story where people could understand the characters and their goals and motivations well enough to accurately predict what might happen, I would consider that a rousing success! I would be overjoyed if someone caught on early that two characters would get together, or if they predicted a satisfying conclusion to a plot, because that means I actually wrote something coherent and satisfying to engage with!
Bad writers think good/smart writing is incredibly subversive and subtle, always pulling the rug out from the viewer's feet. Always being a few steps ahead of them
@@ahstiasummers5583
Yeah, except I like that rug where it is, thank you. Pulling it out from under me is certainly surprising, but it's also annoying as shit and can probably be considered an assault.
Point is, there is something deeply satisfying about a story going directly where you expect it to go and I'm tired of every writer thinking it's smart to keep upending our expectations.
controvertially a really good example of this is bnha. literally everyone in the fandom either knew or heavily suspected that dabi was a todoroki (villain with obvious fake name who uses fire and has a strong hatred for heroes, endeavor in particular, along with foreshadowing that shouto had a dead/missing brother) the fun part was finding out when it was gonna be revealed, and what led him to this point. when it was revealed, nobody thought "wait what?" the main response from the fandom was "i fucking knew it!" which is great! everyone loved having it confirmed even though we knew!
My favourite part of a show is making theories and seeing them come throygh
One of my greatest pet peeves with SVTFOE is that when it started to be about fantasy racism, it continued to give one of the main characters who was in an ACTUAL MINORITY group the short end of the stick. Oh and also Star began treating him like less of a friend (much less love interest) and more of a lackey.
“the reason ‘will they won’t they’ is a stupid fucking plot line is because ‘they won’t’ is never the resolution. THEY ALWAYS DO.”
YES!!! SCREAM IT TO HIGH HEAVEN LILY!!!
if I ever see another will they won't they' no scratch that IM going to make a will they won't they that will end in them NOT GETTING TOGETHER just to give people the resolution that was never going to happen. maybe it will make them realize that if these stories were actually serious for a moment that they wouldn't be together, then the story wouldn't be what they wanted
@@theflaminglitten-fo6jd the wont stuff kinda hapened to rex in generator rex and to Fin in AT, I think mordekai in regular show kinda had it to, though his and Fin's situation is more of a brake up idk if it count's
And what’s worse is that basing the plot around a “will they/won’t they” romance means you have nowhere to go once it’s resolved.
Here’s a super dated example but “Moonlighting” had this problem. The first 2 seasons had relationship stuff (between the goofy male lead and the serious female lead). Then they get married in season 2, ending the question entirely… but then they had season 3 to fill. So then they had baby drama but it wasn’t as good because the main relationships between the characters had changed.
@@shelbybabcock8779 yeah this post confirmation vacuum is one of the things shows like she-ra suffer from, the creator is too afraid to have characters together early, because there is this fear people won't stay invested. tbh id much rather watch catra and adora dealing with their sht in the first half and not for whole duration of the show till last episodes of the final, I'd be delighted to see them work together and be happy for more than a season, that's one of the reasons i wanted a shera movie to happen, so we can see catradora in a relationship that isn't deathly swings of suffering and catra's mental explosions
tho i must confess the will they won't they was one of the reasons why i became obsessed with the show at the first place, mostly because it's gay mcs and the "will" was not as certain as with starko(het)
@@НяшкаОртодокс regular show had it twice with mordecai, at had it three times with Finn
Lily listed Jojo along side hamtaro and hello kitty. I see this as a huge W for Jojo
Don't forget Digimon
Nobody can resist the silliness of DIO! 😆
@@LilianOrchard You like JoJo...? Really.....?
@@shadowknight3035 No
@@LilianOrchard It was nice to think so for a bit lol
As a hispanic person, i found Marco and his family's extensive stupid stereotyping hilarious... the first time. After a few episodes without depth it becomes VERY clear that this is how the writers view hispanic people... so thanks for bringing it up!
With each of these videos, I realize more and more how special Kim Possible was. Maybe that’s not the right way to word it. How it feels like a glass of water after the swill that has been the last few years of animation. How its villains were all so uniquely hilarious from one another, how Kim and Ron played off them, and off each other. When you were talking about Ludo initially, he immediately reminded me of Drakken, and I feel like that has been lost, due to Creator’s over-inflated egos. People remember Drakken, or Shego, or even Senor Junior because they are timelessly funny and charming. If Kim Possible ever had a Toffee type character, they’d be all but forgotten due to the cult of personality surrounding them.
I wonder if Danny Phantom will be similarly remembered as good, because I know I shouldn't trust my nostalgia of what I remember about it in case that turns out to be wrong (again lol).
@@bleakautomaton4808Some villains are more memorable than others but I would say if you asked people would say either Vlad, Ember or Skulker
I really loved Toffee, personally. I didn't find him boring and bland, but I do have a bias for sociopath-esque villians who blatanly manipulate people and pull the strings from behind the scenes to get what they want lol. That being said- I agree that his addition and the creator wanting the series to "get more serious" likely is where things began taking a turn for the worse. Very unfortunate that they made such a good character in a show where he didn't belong, and then tried to change the show to make it seem like he was meant to be there all along :/
Forcing a circle into a triangular hole
Same
Yes! I wish more people who are inspired by anime take after "the silly anime where everyone is sharply dressed and ridiculously buff"
Or Death Note. I'd be up for more Death Note or Fullmetal Alchemist-inspired things.
*Where is my Johnny Brabobobo mash-up?!?* 🤬
My first thought was JoJo but One Punch Man could also apply here 😂
The racism bit was really insightful. It actually got me thinking about a story of mine where I pulled the "monster racism" trope myself and the more I think about it, the more I realize I really shouldn't have. I'm gonna do a rewrite and fix it. So thanks for that.
Also I'm glad you mentioned how people are incapable of dropping bad shows because they need closure. Fuck that with a rusty scalpel. I've dropped plenty of shows that I hated, because why would I waste my time when I could just watch good TV? Believe it or not I actually have some self-respect left.
For me, one of the dumbest twists SVTFOE did was making the Butterfly family pasty Eclipsa not the real heirs. That just completely negated every lesson Star learned in seasons 1 and 2 about being a leader and taking responsibility. A revelation should ADD value to past actions, not negate it. When Stan’s big secret was revealed in Gravity Falls, it didn’t make his time with Dipper and Mable any less meaningful, but instead added to it.
Also, the only “they won’t” that comes to mind is Trixie and Spud from “American Dragon: Jake Long”.
I remember watching tons of theory videos from star vs back while it was airing and it wasn't until it got to midway through the 3rd season when I realized that the actual episodes themselves didn't even interest me that much and that I was only holding on because of memories from the first season and from those theory videos and it made me rethink all the adventure fantasy shows I used to watch💀
Cannot imagine how you’d feel about RWBY after watching this video 😭
She would hate it because on top of everything discussed in this video (like the storyline about fake fantasy racism done by people who know nothing about real life racism) it is the cartoon that not only it does the pointlessly torturing young girls for exploitative reasons thing that she condemned in another video, but it goes way over the top with how cruel and damaging the actual torture is AND how many characters receive it that it makes She-Ra look good and Catra a sane and healthy individual.
Seriously, screw that show and the horrible company that makes it.
Please don't get her started on RWBY, I honestly hope she hasn't seen it
Hbomberguy already did a video ripping RWBY to pieces years ago, and anyone who kept watching it after that were just masochists. If you know something sucks but keep watching anyway, it really is a time waster--just like it would be to make a video about any new additions to RWBY after hbomb's video.
It'd be pointless. Anyone with two braincells to rub together knows RWBY sucks. Putting in the time to say something new about it when it was already shot with a cannon is not something a sane person would be motivated to do.
I wonder when Hbomberguy is gonna do that RWBY part two video...or maybe there won't be because RWBY was that bad.
He'd rip it to pieces.
I'm pretty sure Sailor Moon's anime was airing while the manga was being published in a monthly magazine which is why it had a lot of episodes, but cartoons don't really have that issue, so creators remember the shows having a ton of episodes but don't seem to remember or care to learn why. Also Sailor Moon wrapped up it's story by the end of each season. There was never a "please greenlight another season" cliffhanger shot. You could watch the first season, stop there, and you wouldn't really miss anything because the first season is a contained story.
Also Madoka Magica is the reason I mainly watch Pretty Cure, as it's really the only modern day magical girl show/franchise that hasn't sucked on Madoka's grimm dark tit. I can trust that it won't do that to me.
I think that the main problem with serialised shows is their reliance on intrigue. It's like Jay Exci said, intrigue is easy, you just have to hint at something happening, and then that's it, and you can save actually writing it til the finale.
TV shows need to focus on having a good story NOW, regardless of what happens later down the line.
Even movies are doing this now, with Star Wars and Marvel.
honestly, you’re not wrong. I adore a few things about star vs (mostly aesthetic), but even I’m sick of the post-anime stuff. The reason I dragged my feet on a story I’ve had in my head since high school it’s because the venn diagram of popular fandom stuff and what I actually wanted to write, would be a comfortable parking spot for a semi truck. someday I’ll learn to write stuff just because it makes me happy.
"The venn diagram of X and Y would be a comfortable parking lot for a semi truck" needs to enter my vocabulary immediately.
The "will they? won't they?" trope is annoying, but this reminds me of another bothersome trope where the feelings between the characters are left ambiguous. The show might tease and tease that the characters might like each other (or one likes the other, because the other makes it obvious they like the one) and they never reveal in the end whether they do like each other. It can go on for an entire movie or seasons of a show, but this makes me think that, similarly to the "will they? won't they?" trope, the creators purposely tease this to keep the shippers watching. And it's manipulative. Glad it's dying as a trope.
Lily has no chill and that's why I love her. Every popular childrens show in the last 5 years was catching strays in one video alone😭😭😭
The only serialized show I've actually enjoyed in the past decade was Craig McCracken's Kid Cosmic - not because it was 'serious' or because it was dramatic, but because he knew from the start what he wanted the show to be and because nothing was dragged out. Its honestly refreshing because the show never lost its fun and hopeful tone and it actively fought *against* the worst tropes and traps of a superhero story. Its not perfect, as some characters are fairly underdeveloped and i wouldve loved to have more 'adventure of the week' eps just to get more fun character oneshots. But for what it is, its still miles ahead of the shows who drag their feet and lose track of the story and message theyre trying to make.
It still feels episodic despite having a very linear order of events
Kid Cosmic feels like Invincible show, if Invincible show actually understood what comic was about.
I always hated it when shows feel the need to make ships of their two main leads canon at the finale. I mean it makes sense in some cases (like in Avatar, where they’re so focused on fighting a war that they don’t have time for relationships). But in Star Vs The Forces of Evil, they had plenty of time and opportunity to get Starco moving
“‘Oh, this needs to be perfect, so I need to wait for the right moment!’ BITCH, YOU THOUGHT. GET IN THE LOVE PIT!”
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Another thing I've noticed in cartoons is that so many episodes don't have any substance. There's nothing to gain from watching them, not character development, not plot progression and not even entertainment. They can be skipped entirely and you can just get a sentence summary of the episode from someone else.
If I was producing a show, I would try and make the most of every episode I had, not waffle around for three seasons. The shows with memorable episodes are the ones that are remembered, ie Gravity falls, the owl house and Avatar. Star vs has so many throwaway episodes that you can watch a 20 minute TH-cam video about it instead of watching it and absorb just as much information about the story.
The point I'm trying to make is that these types of stories are unpopular because they are unsatisfying. The general public would rather watch a show that provides entertainment in every episode than 3 seasons of 'To be continued's '.
Great video as always, Lily! ❤
Maybe it's due to me growing older, but seeing this push for darker content from insecure people taught me to be more prudent in the shows I watch nowadays. Steven Moffat is exceptionally guilty of this. If I were to elaborate, I'd be here all day. Long story short, I've not watched a single episode of Doctor Who since "The Angels Take Manhattan," and I have not felt like I missed out. If there's a lesson to learn, it would be to have a counterbalance in place when you plan to go darker and edgier. Know when to pump the breaks, and let your characters have happy moments. I'd go so far as to give them a happy ending so that their hardships weren't for nothing.
You've talked in the past about how kids don't fall for this bull, and I think Star Vs is a good example bc that was my experience with the show (was in the age demo when it came out, liked the first season, dropped it when I realized they had a boner for Toffee's shit). I think show runners who do this don't realize that most people, especially most kids, don't have any patience for shows that initially advertise themselves as episodic, then say "whoops, never mind, here's some poorly-written nonsense we want you to get emotionally invested in". It's purposefully deceptive advertising.
This is ultimately what got most of the Adventure Fantasy shows cancelled. Kids stopped watching them
People say your show needs to be serious to be good yet Bluey is currently one of the best cartoons out there
Yes
I actually chalk up a lot of Modern Adventure Cartoons (inspired by anime)'s writing failures not wholely on the producers being inspired by anime, but by these showrunners not studying or understanding what inspired the anime they grew up with: a LOT of anime is inspired by Japanese folklore/myths/history/pop fiction, but also popular western works like classic literature or comic books or French cinema. JJBA in particular was inspired by prog rock like King Crimson, Renaissance sculpture, and French movies, among other influences like Dracula or East of Eden.
Most importantly, Japanese fiction like anime is defined by the eastern four act structure kishōtenketsu, which is specifically ANTI-conflict (in the sense that the story is about a sequence of events unravelling rather than two opposing dichotomies embodied via the protagonist and antagonist fighting and clashing/Obstacle Vs Intent - the latter can still feature like in shonen anime but it is NOT what the story is focused on). It's the difference between Superman punching Brainiac versus Superman trying to find his keys. It's why eastern fiction FEELS so different.
RWBY, Owl House, Star Vs, TLOK, and countless other anime-inspired works all failed because they only copied the surface level details of anime (the styles), rather than study Japanese culture. They were made by incurious people!
First I think the owl house well constructed but cut s3 into special ep I like imagine you prepare perfect script for but studio top head nope we shorter you rewrite the well construct show
The real problem many of these shows with anime inspirations... is that they never got to understand the concept of a "story arc".
Mangas have clear story arcs and, if the manga still is popular after that, it gets to continue, but many mangaka understand that their stories may end with that arc, so they try to complete as much of the story as possible.
If you get popular enough to continue, good for you. Now you can tell that next story, but it is never guaranteed. So, most arcs in manga and anime NEED to have satisfying resolutions and actually make sense, if you want to have the next arc happen.
Avatar actually did that fine enough, because it undestood the episodic nature of both children TV and anime. The original Teen Titans also did it well, because most of the show was also just fun episodic stories.
But, when you try to tell a hybrid story like these, if you don't have clear the objetive of the story, the story will die.
The japanese industry survives like that BECAUSE they put a knife to the authors necks, so they have to think about how long they can do that.
Those stories last long because they survive to that, constantly, and, if they fail, they die.
For every anime that gets popular in the West, there are a hundred incredibly niche things that are only known to their fetish community or a tiny band of ultrafans. People who take inspiration from anime would do well to remember that.
tbf Japan is somewhat unique in that they can *exclusively* cater to these superfans and still be a success as well. There's even a genre built around "Japanese people who prefer 80s American action shows" so you get things like Licensed by Royalty and Mad Bull that are just anime versions of Jason Bourne and Dirty Harry.
So when they try to pull off something that laser focused _here_ (like all those 80s comedy anime that were badly localized because it relies *so much* upon knowledge of a specific Japanese region and its culture... But gets changed to burgers and fried foods)
Basically you can only do that if you explicitly center the show on LA/NY/SF, which thanks to long running sitcoms people already know these landmarks, try it with literally *any* other city and it wouldn't succeed. But you can find a mountain of SoL/school battle anime that succeed off of "realistic landmark and Cultural knowledge" settings from said regions. So these coastal writers try doing the same thing with earth based settings and just confuse the shit outta the average watcher. Boston based writers are especially guilty of this (just check wikis on any city based show not obviously NY), thinking they have the international importance of NYC
These writers see this success barren of Cultural context and think you can straight import that style into US TV with no changes.
This kind of reminds me of how people would get mad at every new iteration of the TMNT because it was "too goofy". The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, who eat pizza and say "Cowabunga", being too goofy? They don't even realize that the original comic was meant to be a satire of those dark, edgy comics too lol
I'm pretty sure that Nefcy new that she was gonna get 4 seasons pretty early on so Disney isn't to blame for her terrible pacing.
Pretty much.
@@celestemunda7143 According to Saberspark, she enjoyed the idea of playing around with the series in the future. She kept things open ended for that possibility.
@@ThePrincessCHI wanted to join them.
"The all lives mattering of Steven Universe" Lmfao
Hey, wait a minute! Why has no one taken inspiration from Jojo's yet!?
We got an Initial D reference in Western animation before we got that!?
Seriously, a show where everyone has a gimmicky superpower and the way to beat your opponent is to out-think them would be amazing. Teach kids critical-thinking while being fun. Or if you want to aim for a higher age range, teach the teenagers critical-thinking while being fun and also some drama. Maybe even mix it in with a phenomenon kids/teens might know all too well, like puberty or gifted kid syndrome.
Epithet Erased kind of does that.
Seriously glad someone brought that up! Initial D had far better drama than these jokers came up with. If you want to know more, watch Initial D! It’s awesome!
I want to see a cartoon where the only thing the writers are "serious" about is having some serious fun bcs that's all people (and children!) need to enjoy something or think fondly of it
You should check out Wander over Yonder if you haven't already
I believe you misunderstand why One Piece is that long. In Japan, mangas like One Piece are published in weekly magazines and chapters are judged week to week by the audience. The author of One Piece originally had the intention of making One Piece wayyyyyy shorter, but the series was so popular that he just continued. The goal of Shonen Jump manga is to last as long as they are popular and One Piece achieved that so much that it stills runs to this day.
But the thing is... One Piece works because most of it is just dumb fun. One Piece is a extremely goofy story, full of chapters and moments where the only point is to be entertaining. One Piece has a serious story, but the majority of the point is going in a fun journey with these guys.
Like, honestly, a lot of the point of One Piece is to be extremely fun. That is why it survived so long in a magazine as competitive as Shonen Jump, where stories that underperform can die in a couple of weeks.
Like, people like One Piece for the same reason they like long running comedies, in some ways. They just like spending time with these characters and see what they are doing.
So One Piece is like Superman comics, got it.
@LilianOrchard Yep, that is actually not a bad analogy. I started watching One Piece when I was young and I kept watching because the story was fun. There were parts where the story had serious messages and such, and when it did, those are great. But the general pleasure of this story is just following characters that are fun.
My exact thought half way into the Toffee arc was this is weirdly grim for a show who's main character shoots Narwals out of a magic wand . I had no idea how much worse it would get
I still think that Spongebob summed up the 'mature, no kids allowed' mentality shared by fans and tv shows with its episode grandma's kisses, where the moral is basically to stay in touch with the things your inner child likes, regardless if cynical assholes think it's not 'adult'
If these people would go back and actually rewatch the shows they loved as kids they'd see that they reveled in the absurdity. You mentioned Digimon and the villains in that were "I'm going to bask in the hilarity of my comical evilness" type characters, the fact that they embrace the villainy is part of enjoyment. It's hilarious but it's played straight, but people seem to miss that now.
Some of the more famous bad digimon include, but are not limited to; A monkey Elvis Pressly, a giant murderous teddy bear, a litteral clown, and sentient golden poop.
@@vivil2533 I really enjoyed arukenimon and mummymon. They were pretty goofy too.
The whole “I want a dark serious show because I want something mature” is so annoying to me because it’s reached the point where there is almost NOTHING fun and lighthearted to watch.
I’ve been stuck in a rut because I don’t have the energy and brain power to watch something labelled “mature” and “serious” and it’s exhausting having to watch those things now. That’s why I’m so desperate for shows that are actually slice of life. Life is miserable enough, I don’t want to watch another character be miserable instead.
And even for people who might enjoy those type of “mature” animations, it gets so repetitive and stale. Just because I remember enjoying Gravity Falls doesn’t mean I need ten of those shows shoved down my throat.
I just want soft family dynamics where there is no stupid drama or angst. Is that too much to ask?
The Ghost and Molly Mcgee and Bluey
Came back after life gave me a little breathing room and watched the first episode of Molly Mcgee; safe to say I'm hooked.
Thanks for the recommendation exactly what I needed :D
Say what you will about Gravity Falls; Alex Hirsch knew he had two seasons worth of story so two seasons worth of story is what he made
Well, technically speaking Batman the Animated Series wasn't serialized, it was about as episodic as they come and still very dark and serious.
Jackie Chan Adventures was Heavily serialized but also lighthearted and campy, only really getting dark around the season finales.
Xiaolin Showdown was all of that, but none of it at the same time, it dealt with harsh topics, betrayal, loneliness, isolation, and greed, but it was never anything less than an absolute goof.
All I'm saying is, maybe it's not the concept that keeps letting you down, maybe the writers just suck.
Batman TAS wasn't as dark as you remember it being.
Xoulin Showdown is a great example
I think for to be a good Fantasy adventure show is to “be serious, but don’t take yourself to seriously.” Which sounds contradictory but hear me out.
What I loved about Kipo and Avatar is how they balanced the serious moments with light hearted comedy. They didn’t have the characters be overly dramatic Edgelords, who put too much blame on themselves for an honest mistake or something that happened ages ago or beyond their control.
Or Teen Titans OG
Like it was very silly even in the more serious episodes
And the silly episodes are more rewatchable ones
Honestly I would've not mind if SVTFOE had stayed as a fun episodic show with Star and Marco fighting a different monster every episode and Ludo basically being like the Dr. Claw of the show. It would be like a Saturday morning cartoon from the '80s. Not every show needs to be serious and story driven like Gravity Falls to be good.
The sad part about this video for me is I really don't disagree. I loved this show for the first 2 seasons and it will always hold a place in my heart, but I have never rewatched the show. Which for me is odd since I usually reexperince anything I can. The first two seasons no matter the problems they had felt focused, after toffee was dead its was just kinda serious but no substance.
I'm starting to see a pattern when it comes to shipping and how they nearly destroy the integrity of great shows
Bad pacing destroys shows
@@LilianOrchard that too
2010s take five seasons to explain basic concept. 2020s have an arc for five charters in half an episode.
I cannot tell you how much these videos help as a guidelines of what not to do when writing. People can complain all they want but honest criticism is better than sugarcoating bad decisions, keep up the great work.
I wonder if the other reason why the Star fandom gravitated towards Toffee so much over Ludo was that he was coded to be conventionally attractive vs someone that was coded to be a goblin person...
I'm glad Madoka Magica came up in this video, specifically in a screen shot talking about bad things, not because it's bad, but because it's like Watchmen: I god damn hate it because it ruined everything else. Serioussly, 'Tragical girl' worked once and I hate that nothing else seems to be able to have fun anymore.
@@ateliermink6340 Also includes pleanty of moments of hope and goodness to prove the world is actually worth saving, a thing so many tragial girl shows don't bother with.
@Atelier Mink Magical Girl Site is an anime I tried years ago, and is basically everything you described. Went way harder than Madoka with torturing the main characters without enough hope to justify things narratively. Now nobody seems to discuss it except for its flaws, while Madoka is still a staple of the magical girl genre to this day
I loved the first 3 seasons, sure it had some flaws when it started to enter the shipping era, but it was HEAVILY carried by the well-made arcs, villains and the whole surroundings filled with great characters. Season 4 however really destroyed everything tho. I loved Eclipsa and Globcor and how Star became more mature, but everything outside that fell flat with a garbage villain and rushed horrifying finale. I will always not count the last season because of how good the first 3 were
I know its probably stupid and irrelevant, but Shadow the Hedgehog was not considered bad because it made the Sonic series too edgy or serious, the reason Shadow the Hedgehog is incredibly infuriating and hated is because you need to replay it ten times for the true ending from the very beginning, meaning you have to play Westopolis ten times and complete incredibly annoying challenges to get certain endings. Of course, my boy Shadow is the epitome of edge, but he is certainly not what makes Sonic bad and I do not believe he is comparable with Toff' cuz at least Shadow's debut game does not leave what Shadow's goals are, what Shadow is, and his importance to the overall story of Sonic Adventure 2 a mystery to solve in another game.
Sonic fan born in time for that game here
No it's both, the edge that the fans kept asking for since like 1992 has handed to them uncompromised for once and wow, it sucks
@TechBlade9000 •Was also born in time for the game. You're crazy if you didn't think it was funny as hell that the gave a 3 foot cartoon rodent guns. It is most certainly not the edginess that made it a bad game. It's like saying that the bright colors and pop music in FE Sessions is what made it a bad game. It's not a bad game, it was just not what was expected.
That comment about leaving a show behind when it doesn't hold your interest anymore is honestly something people need to do more of. If you REALLY wanna know how the show is doing after falling off...just read the wiki page. Takes WAY less time and effort than watching something you hate.
15:36
Me at the Disney meeting: “JoJo’s bizarre adventure?”
Disney rep: “… you start on Wednesday.”
This perspective is really interesting - I personally have almost no patience for characters who refuse to change and grow (or for will they/won't they romances, which is just a sub-category of that), and as a result I tend to avoid sitcoms almost entirely unless someone I care about wants to watch one with me. I wonder if part of the problem with the shows you're talking about is committing to a plot-driven model but not committing to a time limit?
To give two examples of shows I really like that manage to balance plot drama and episodic hijinks pretty well: _Avatar_ understood from the beginning that it was a three-season show (and that if they got a fourth it would essentially just be an epilogue to the main story), so it was able to pace the character development and the plot structure so that they grew in sync with each other. Meanwhile, _Agents of SHIELD_ never knew how many seasons it would have, but the show structured its plot into arcs that led into each other, so that at least three times a season you would have a sense of resolution even while moving on to something new.
I feel you on a deep level it’s hard to find any media these days that’s not this I even tired to swap to regular books and the most recent book I read literally tortured the protagonist to death only to be brought back to life just to live in a mental hell I had to stop reading and was over it it was a series and I was no willing to read anymore and this book is so highly recommended
Which book?
@@melancholygirl7793 a court of thorns and Roses
@@redrosepunk7974 I only know that series for getting made fun of.
@@melancholygirl7793 it is well deserved if that’s all you know a lot of people recommend it I was starting to think I needed new friends
Here’s the issue with serialization/continuous storylines… people think these day think it automatically means it’s darker or more serious. Here’s the bigger picture …. These kinds of shows tends to treat each episode like a chapter in a book. All part of the same story. Episodes might have some self-contained elements, but for the most part, they're pieces or fragments of a much bigger season and series narrative.
The problem is most of the serialized Tv cartoon shows we see these days, when wanting to do a continuing story, make it darker or more edger, or takes itself too seriously. Going to Pokémon for example, the show was about Ash’s journey and having fun. There were serious or sad episodes, but the majority of the show was light hearted and fun. Panty and Stocking was episodic but slowly started to become more seralized but it still was just silly as fuck, bell parically making fun of serious moments by having the most insane plot elements like giant underware (and other things I won’t say cause TH-cam will slap me stupid)
Ducktales had a countuning plot lines and while moments were emtional the show was still just about wacky adventures with race cars, lasers and aero-planes.
However shows like Steven universe, Star, and fuck ton of the popular shows when becoming serialized got serious…. Which is honestly sullying the whole whole prespective on seralized shows.
And listen if I want a drama I’ll go to a Broadway show or rewatch Sense and Sensibility
Do you mean original ducktales or the reboot?
oh boy when I personally dislike how Nefcy attempted [key word: attempted] to include the racism plot, it reminded me of RWBY's failed attempt.
This is going to sound super gatekeep-y, but whatever:
It's super weird that western anime weebs are so obsessed with anime to the point that they actively sabotage their own works by mimicking anime tropes to the point they fill their shows with nonsense and filler that ruins the show, when the whole reason filler was even a thing was because most anime was based on serialized manga and the animators often caught up with the author faster than they could write. Hell, even ANIME CREATORS doN't like the filler, and they often do their best to get rid of it wherever and however possible - best example being Dragon Ball Z vs Kai, which literally aimed to make the anime as close to the source material as possible by removing the filler.
And, again, this is gatekeep-y, but anime fans should know this stuff. They should know filler sucks. They should know filler isn't popular, even with biggest fans of the series. So why sabotage your own work copying the most universally despised part of anime??? I cannot fathom it.
Still adore the show because it’s nostalgia for me at this point, but definitely they totally messed up thinking they were gonna get 7 seasons to tell some “powerful story” that felt really basic anyways
I liked Toffee as a villain he was this ambiguous force of nature to me but I have to agree in hindsight he just did not fit the tone of the show at all
When people blame steven universe's bad ending on it not getting a 6th season it confuses me because it did get 6 seasons for the original run. Season 1 is 52 episodes because they combined two seasons and aired it as one. So the original run got its 6 seasons it was promised the crew just couldn't add a 7th to the original run. I reality steven universe was given the exact number of season they asked for they just wasted their time.
Expired milk won’t go good no matter how much time you give it.
You know…. It just hit me how much these TV shows play on the honeymoon phase to get people to watch them. Just: have a good level and memories that people keep hoping the series will get back to so they keep watching.
Not just sunk cost. But that. It’s what kept me watching Star Vs and Tangled, and what I’ve realised is never the case so I’m starting to drop shit the second they go bad.
I’m gonna go drown in icecream
This video pretty much explains why Janna is my favorite character in the show. She was a fun troll at the start, and she... pretty much stayed exactly the same to the very end. By the end of the series, I just wanted more Janna, since she was the only part of the show I was consistently enjoying.
Ludo is my favorite character and I think his transition into a more competent and scary villain was one of the few good things to come out of Star vs' serialization. He was already good in season 1, but watching him tame a giant spider, a giant eagle and an army of rats was so cool. Buff Frog is my second favorite character. It was such a bummer that seasons 3 and 4 forgot about the two of them. Writing tip: don't drop the good characters you already have in order to explore less interesting ones (*ahem* the Magic High Commission and Mina).
This exactly! I feel like Ludo truly got a chance to shine in season 2, becoming more three-dimensional, giving us a glimpse into how his family and home life has affected him in The Hard Way, and having a key role as an antagonist in Battle For Mewni, the most of a threat he's ever been! the ending of BFM could have (and SHOULD have) been a turning point for his character: he's lost everything, he's back to square one, and Toffee's essentially shattered him with the revelation that even after all his growth, Ludo's success was never really earned, just given to him temporarily only for Toffee to take back when the time is right. It would have been the perfect opportunity for redemption, maybe the Butterfly family decides to make him repay his debt by doing work in the castle, or he decides he wants to try and make something of himself of his own volition, just SOMETHING to keep him in the story and expand upon the character growth they've given him. But no, they throw him back into space to slowly lose his mind on a garbage planet and never have story relevance again while they focus on fan favorites such as. seahorse and quirky guy.
@@sqweegee5299 I hate that episode in which Dennis is trying to help Ludo and at the end they hint that Ludo is going to come back as a villain, but he never does. 💀
His character doesn't even get an ending. He's bound to lose his mind all alone for the rest of his life (especially since inter-dimensional portals don't exist anymore after the finale) which is a huge disrespect to Ludo fans. He deserved a better fate.
The MHC were kinda interesting as single characters (well okay maybe not Hekapoo since she didn't have a solid characterization and only took off in the fandom for shipping junk/a firey waifu).
This one encapsulated what I've always liked about your work: You have a fantastic ability to diagnose writing and production problems in ways that get me thinking about my own media habits. I've gotten really tired of writers trying to emulate anime. One of my recent favourite anime had a tight 12-episode romantic plot that ended with the Gay Princesses in an unambiguous relationship. How about they emulate that, for a change.
Which anime are you referencing
Revolutionary girl Utenna?
@@Mrcleanfrfr Utena is way longer and more drawn out, thjink they mean: The Magical Revolution of the Reincarnated Princess and the Genius Young Lady
I think that's a good way to summarize the problem: You get your big serious villain, your big serious story that you liked in your animes and now what, what was all that for.
As a growing artist i have learned to ask myself why do i do it, for example:
I want this character to do JoJo like poses, but why?
Is it "because i like JoJo and JoJo is a good show that does that?"
No I'm doing it because the way i wrote this character she is someone who would unironically do JoJo like poses, because she is a showoman and loves to be extra.
Why does this setting have giant robots? Because i like Mecha animes and Power rangers and they do it so i have to?
No, i do it because this setting is about fighting giant monsters so why not also make giant Mecha to fight them.
It's not about "it's what they do so i have to do it", it's about why they do it and how that can help your writing.
I really hate how shows love getting serious when it starts out fun and light hearted. It's why I couldn't stick with Adventure Time. Also hate the waffling when it comes to romance.
This sort of feeds back into a question that I've had for a while, and that you've brought up before. Why do people want everything to be the same? Why do people want the "objectively correct" template when that, by design of we as a species, does not exist. It's laughable that people keep looking for it but that defeats the point of entertainment. It's all subjective.
The focus on "seriousness" kills more entertainment then it saves, at least from a subjective view. I keep seeing shit recommended to me about the DC Snyderverse and how people keep saying it's "perfect and that he needs one more film to finish it" (ignoring the fact that he had that, and chose to blow it on fragging sequel baiting), but I think I'd struggle to find someone who thinks that the depictions of any of those characters is the best depiction of them, the seriousness boggs those movies down so much I think it's making a tunnel to the earth's core.
something is so therapeutic about watching people SCREAM on the internet
why bother taking out my anger by shouting at people when someone else has already done it better than I could ever do
plus you get to learn new stuff all the time about writing n all that
On the topic of anime having dragged out pacing, A lot of action anime now a days, like Demon Slayer or Jujutsu Kaiser have faster pacing than the “golden age of anime.” Even Anime realizes that their past shows weren’t perfect.
I watched the show all the time when I was a kid and even I agree that toffee was really bad I hated him I was like "when are they going to bring back lotto" I kind of checked out after the second season and I only ever popped in because people were talking about. BTW Hey Lily do you have any writing advice for writing a organic gay side plot where they meet at the beginning of the story as frenemies?
No I don't. My advice for enemies to lovers is "Don't."
I don't understand why people want serious adult cartoons when Adult Swim exists, a TV block dedicated to adult animations. But they can't be satisfied by that because 99% of those shows are comedies. They want their egdy and gory anime in their kids cartoons, which is what lead to Samurai Jack season 5, which got boats loads of praise for 3 episodes before everyone realized the show was kind of sallow and bad.
Actually I think they wanted that because season 4 didn't give the show a proper ending.
@@skippyskippy7687 but the code was already cracked years ago. There were plenty of successful adult animations that weren't entirely comedies, and the reason so many shows are comedies is that it's the most universally appealing genre.
@Barrett Birks Don't argue with a weeb, it's a waste of time.
@@LilianOrchard right, bad habit, sorry
@@barrettbirks1058 I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just repeating what I heard.
I think it's funny that the terribly will they-won't they shipping from Star Vs ultimately ended up kickstarting MorningMark's comic career.
Actually, he started on Gravity Falls fan-works.
After all of this time my favourite disney cartoon is still phineas and ferb, it rarely went too far out of it's wheel house and was just fun, shows being fun is nice
U would hate ninjago🤣
But good points
Ninjago is good. What are talking about bra?
Considering how many interesting anime there are, it's really obnoxious that the inspirations people have are always the most bland.
@@mysmallnoman I can disagree with some of her positions on anime while still agreeing with the broader point that the overabundance of shounen influence in the millennial anime zeitgeist is detrimental to its use as inspiration for tight storytelling. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@mysmallnoman Okay, go off, then.
@@mysmallnoman Why are you still replying to me. Whether you're right or not about how much anime Lily's seen, your beef with her is irrelevant to both the point she made and the points I made.
I honestly wouldn’t blame you if you don’t do a video on Miraculous Ladybug, everything about it has gotten so ridiculously stupid that I stopped watching it years ago.
One of the more interesting things about all of these people who made western shows based on anime that never go anywhere is... Anime mostly has stopped doing that? Modern anime is based on hitting you hard, fast, and rapid with plot and changes. Anime itself went "nah that's actually shit" and people just... Decided to continue to tell stories as if it was the 90s.
I don't agree that Anime stopped doing that, and more they change their approach to doing that.
Episodes a season are now not long enough, so Anime either have to rush a conclusion at the end because the show starts out like most Anime, as in way too much for little time they now have OR ends on literal nothing beginning for the next season to be Green lit
No Anime is still very guilty of it My Hero Academia is right over there
@@TechBlade9000truth being told, I don’t even bother with that anime. It’s not for me.
I definitely agree that Star vs. wasted it's time and dragged out everything as if it had endless amount of time to work with in it's future. I was actually mad when I heard creator lady say she ended show the way she did so fanfics writers had stuff to play with and her if she got to do more of this show in the future. And considering the huge list of problems this show had. Problems where some would be valid criticism still but would have much lesser impact - if show reminded mostly episodic.
Sadly this show decided to "get serious" but with very poor understanding of what that means (which this very video does point out in excellent ways). You could see it for example in how this show treated it's own world building. As in show didn't give a fuck what it set up for it's characters and their backgrounds and did whatever they felt in the moment. Best example of victim of this is king River who went from being member of noble family to playing in mud simpleton so they could make him a butt of a joke. Or how show forgot that Star has a lot of relatives who would take a loooooooooooot of issues with her just handing throne over to Eclipsa.
Show wanted to be more serious. Yet, it didn't take it's own writing serious enough to work with things they established. Instead they ignore stuff because it was easier then figuring out solutions. It was easier to present us with mystery boxes over and over again with mix of "will they won't they". It was easier to that instead of figuring out more for individual characters and over all story.
There's always that backwards hook when it comes to mostly white or opposite race people when it comes to representing characters who are a different race than them in their cartoons.
In that when they do represent a character of an ethnic minority there's always 1 stereotype that ends up not only being racist but also promotes that kind of shit in fandom.
Y'know the shit where everybody had that racist head cannon about Camilla being abusive to Luz? Well the creator didn't make it better giving her a damn sandle, yes the character in question was a weird dick who needed to get beat up but the Spanish mom with a slipper is a harmful stereotype that adds to the abuse in ethnic household stereotype. As an Hispanic man I know while normalized abusive behavior is Normalized especially parts of my community sadly they shouldn't shine alight on it in a joking manner especially when Camila is a breath of fresh air.
Especially when it's star vs and the whole of Marcos house is a fucking desert.
Hey, I like how this and the last videos' thumbnails are formated, it's a neat change
I'll be honest it took me three watches to notice the Miss Kobayashi dragon maid reference.
And I definitely feel called out because I think that show is absolutely adorable. But I do definitely despise the perv pandering on baby characters
Yeah as a previous fan of miraculous ladybug DO NOT WATCH IT my hyper fixate brain finally fell off and I am very happy because now I don’t have to suffer through that torture anymore.
The only reason people keep suggesting it to you is because they want to hear you tear it to pieces . I mean I would enjoy that very much, but I cannot you to such atrocities
Anime fans coping hard with their 'mature and dark tastes' in this comments section is laughably sad irony.
Soap operas and serialized "mystery" shows (Lost, Supernatural) seem to have this same problem. The issue I've noticed is that they pull in traumatic backstories from nowhere and then try to justify them using small, explainable oddities from earlier episodes. The only good twist backstories I've seen are ones which planned (and hinted at) it from the very beginning (e.g. Gravity Falls and Grunkle Stan). Thank you for putting to words something which allowed me to realize why I dislike the recent episodes of Helluva Boss.
And yes, I realize I'm commenting a lot on your videos as I work through your backlog. In my mind, that's a good sign I'm going to enjoy your future videos!
Honestly I'm reminded of Archie comics Sonic. It was a comic book series that really didn't take itself seriously and full of jokes and gags. As the comic went on they started exploring the characters more, started fleshing out the world more, and we began to understand despite the colorful cast this is a seriously messed up place.
The best part was there was no character introduced that changed things. Honestly it was the reincarnation of the series main villain after his death. Ignoring some of the very weird things, I feel that's what these cartoons tend to do. Have these fun characters, in these exotic places, and fun stories. But the fun as to be balanced. So dramatic tone shifts in intervals is good I think. But ya shouldn't lose what grabbed everyone's attention.
Shows like these just remind me how fucking vital writers are in animation. If you want your show to have serious themes and a serialized story, fine, but get a fucking writer who will know how to convey that shit better than your artists scribbling the 809th Sailor Moon reference. I’m not sure why so many cartoons feel like a script is the absolute worst thing to use.
Not to even mention there was clearly no story planned they wrote it on the knee and pretended everything went "according to plan" even tho everything from show to even merch or books proves otherwise, from time i was into this show there was like 50 different plot points and foreshadowings that went nowhere because they forgot they wrote them in.
This cartoon existed strictly for Star x Marco romance because it's self insert relationship of creator and her husband, it's just creepy glorified fanfiction about two adults and their kid OCs, nothing more. And don't even come at me with "but Disney cancelled it" if you know number of seasons is uncertain you just write seasons the way each one can work as conclusion, i have no idea why every Disney show creator writes story for 50 seasons + 3 spin offs and theatrical release movie and then gets surprised their "masterpiece" gets 3 or 4 seasons because main target doesn't watch it as if this never happened before.
If you want your epic anime adventure fine but fore Christ's sake write the story, main plot points and twists first while keeping in mind you're creating story for kids aged 8 to 13 to enjoy, it's basic development process you're being paid for.
Yeah it would be fun if more people took inspiration from JoJo to make their shows but you see when your story is something simple like "evil vampire (or his boyfriend) kills/hurts/curses the dad/mom of the protagonist so they get pissed and kill him while also saving the world", or "the protagonist is literally just living his life in a small town but there's a serial killer that kills his friend, so he gets pissed and kills him while also saving a lot of future victims" you can't bait people with big reveals and cliff-hangers.
Which means the appeal of your show must come from writing excellent monster-of-the-week encounters with bad guys that have unique powers and personalities in order to make them ALL memorable and entertaining.
But that takes both hard work and talent so...
I think the only show that i watchet where the "will they, wont they" dillema ended with "they wont" was regular show. And it was still agonizing to watch.
Does Gravity Falls count? I mean Dipper was in love with Wendy since episode 5 and they didn't end up together. And for the record, Gravity Falls did the "Just Friends" approach LEAGUES better than Regular show.
@@eyeballdude9061 yeah, i completely forgot.
@@eyeballdude9061 Gravity falls is very different imo. There never was a "will they." They were never going to. Everyone except like 5 weirdos knew that. Dipper's entire arc in Gravity Falls is wound around learning how to cope with his confusing, unreciprocated feelings in a mature way.
Dipper's arc is like my favorite thing ever. I love that show so much
@@kakroom3407 Guess I'm one of those five. When I watched Gravity Falls, at the time it was actually the first show I ever watched were it didn't end up "will they". I was 11 when the show released, and I was so used to shows ending the series on a couple ending up together that it surprised me when "Into the Bunker" released. Don't get me wrong. Even as a kid, I loved the direction they went. It still hits hard when Dipper asks Mabel how everything could feel so amazing and terrible at the same time.
Adventure time did it, twice with both PB and Flame Princess
A lot of adult animation fans act like older siblings who can’t handle sharing their toys with the younger children. And they want shows that are unbearable for children for some reason but instead of making their own trash they break everyone’s things.
Ahh, the joy of listening to a video criticizing a piece of media you never have seen and never intend to see.
"The Reason Will They/Wont They is a stupid fucking plotline is because 'they wont' is never the resolution"
Oh just you wait until I get my own show.
Your show sounds even worse
I named my pet after food, but it's definitely not Watermelon or Chicken Wing. lol
The notion of SVTFOE as a magical girl anime style would have been better imo if they stuck to magical girl formula. Most magical girl animes (aside from grim dark like madoka or magical girl raising) are monster of the week with a focus on the magical girls growth. There may be some plots that come back (like in sailor moon her romance with tuxedo mask) but the stories usually start and stop in one episode and the continuity is just the build up to the big bad that's making all the monsters of the week