Thanks for all the comments! I wish I had time to read and respond to all of them, but I still have a day job that keeps me very busy! Fortunately, that "day job" allows me to go to a lot of cool places where we can sneak in a video sometimes, so it works out in the end as a positive. For those with horizontally mounted or inverted filters, see if your vehicle has clear flood mode. If so, that's a great way to prime the oiling system before the higher pressures of combustion kick in.
Where would one look for "clear flood mode" information? I've never heard of such a thing, or seen such a phrase in the owner's manual. I searched for "clear flood mode" in the PDF workshop manual, for my 2005 Jaguar (with horizontal oil filter) and "No matches were found." What about cartridge filters? Should we soak the filter first and then place it in the cap, with oil up to the brim? Many thanks!
Ive got one of my cars that i dont drive very often, wired so that i have the factory fuel injectors fuse, like 10 amps, going through a simple switch, so i can crank with the spark still going and once i crank and see oil pressure i just flip the switch and it lights off. Its also great to test for leaking fuel injectors and a theft switch.
@@davidcann8788 That would be fun! What are motorcycle oil myths? Do air-cooled (oil-cooled) cars and bikes need to run different oils than water-cooled ones? Do rotary bikes (and cars) have different oil requirements?
@@MonkeyPunchZPokerlake is a true tribologist. PF will never be on his level on knowledge with oil. Those oil tests from project farms is a joke. I do like pf tool tests tho.
@@jwatt95 Love PF...most of his tests are great, but sometimes he is way off the mark because he doesn't quite understand something or how something works....
I have always prefilled my oil filters. My dad and grandpa taught me to always prefill the oil filter. They both gave a simple reason for it. Don't make the motor wait for oil.
After you run the engine if the filter is vertical with the mating surface up, the oil doesn't drain out..... that is the 'normal' condition.. so why not just fill it. I don't get people arguing against pre-fill
They were amongst the wisest of men. 3-6 seconds of no or low oil pressure at 1200rpm on a cold start elevated idle speed is never good. Not only pre fill the filter but change the oil while the motor is hot. Reason being, when starting it will go straight to the normal (lower)idle speed.
@@gothicpagan.666 prefill yes, hot change vs warm change, not much difference. They say so the old oil will drain out of the block,but it does that every time you shut it off. Only benefit is the oil flows out of the pan better.
I was an auto mechanic for many years, never prefilled an oil filter. To the best of my knowledge no one else did. I'm refilling NOW! You taught the old dog a new trick. Thanks for your expertly done tests. You are who I look to for knowledge on these topics.
I did my first oil change around 45 years ago and was shocked by the rod knock until the oil came through. Ever since I’ve always pre-filled the filter. Today I want to fit a 2 micron bypass filter that flows in parallel with the standard filter. The snag is finding the necessary components.
I've been an engineer and auto technician for over 40 years. I have always prefilled the filter. Even if it's on a slight angle(old fords) I would try to put as much oil in as I could without it running out. On my BMW E36 track car, that doesn't get used a lot especially in the winter, I installed an electric oil pump. When I turn the ignition on the ECU runs that pump until I get over 30 PSI of oil pressure. No matter how long the car sits I never have a dry start.
My background is in Electronics and Automotive technology and I have wanted to do something like that for nearly 40 years. When I was a kid my dad had a system on his Humber for introducing a certain amount of upper cylinder lubricant (Redex) into the intake manifold on cold starts. Ever since then I always wondered why there wasn't a system like the one you described. How did you implement it and what kind of an electric oil pump did you use. TIA
I am the chief engineer for Hyde Motorworks. I originally built this for my own car, 650 whp 2.3L TVS supercharged 3 l M50. My track toy. now I am developing it for customers. I used a relatively inexpensive gear type oil pump from Amazon. It has a brass housing and stainless steel gears. I use a -8 line from a fitting in where the oil drain plug used to be. Not ideal but I didn't want to take the pan off again. Braided stainless over rubber line to the inlet of the pump. -6 line out. First to a 10 micron inline oil filter, then a one-way check valve, to T where the oil pressure switch is. It's not high volume with the restrictive lines. And the small Port where the oil pressure switch goes. The pump itself is not designed to pump such heavy oil, and will overheat and shut down if I try to run it too long. But even after a complete oil change it only has to run about 5 Seconds to build 40 PSI of pressure. Cold the pump will run more than 30 seconds. So it does the job. There are more expensive continuous duty oil pumps. They are used on small aircraft engines. But they cost over 1K. Back when I had oil starvation issues on high G corners, I thought about buying one. But then I realized the starvation issue was because the oil wasn't draining back to the pan fast enough and that pump would just be sucking air the same as the mechanical one. So far I've had this exact same setup and pump on my car for over 5 years with zero problems. Last year I even dropped the pan and inspected the bearings. Despite all of the abuse they looked almost perfect.
I'm so glad to find so many like-minded people here. I pre-fill my filter so I can get the level on the dipstick right the first time without having to faff around making up for that volume of oil that an empty filter takes up.
@@kcdesignconcepts5216 mech engineer here working in API rotating equipment...I do most of my own auto work. One thing I don't know for sure is, do all street car engines have the oil pressure switch upstream of the bearings? I assume yes but just seeing if you knew otherwise. Basically I've wanted to do this on my 12 Civic, 18 Camry, 05 Highlander.....basically any car I own. I'd love to know the make and model of the pump you use. Thank you! Lake confirmed pumping is different than pouring when it comes to cold pour tests but here in dead of winter, heck ya I'd like to start after oil pressure is satisfied.
I’ve been changing the oil in all my vehicles for the last 24 years. Today was the first day I’ve ever prefilled the oil filter. My engine thanks you, Lake!
5:21 please check with Jeep, there is a way to spin the motor to get oil pressure before you start the engine. This primes the engine... FreddieB (MA)@wailingalen
@@FreddieB-MAas a dealership technician they do not tell us to do this or explain how to do this when we first join the express team. this goes for jeep and Subaru
In the test they are using a system with no oil filter bypass. This is completely useless in the real world. Cold weather start without a bypass would trash an engine. All manufacturers have an oil filter bypass to prevent engine damage from the filter.
Very intuitive results. I was always a fan of 20W-50, and these ridiculously thin oils today are due to carmakers clawing for every last MPG, and a few ppm reduction in emissions, to try to satisfy stricter and stricter government regulations.
right. As a clock and watchmaker my feeling is the ticker the oil the less wear you have FOR THE PRICE of energy e.g. it does give more "stickyness" which needs to be overcome be the mecanisms. I drive a Citroën Dyane (luxury 2CV) first model generation of 1967. No oil filter! The manual say changing every 5'000Km but I do it every 2'500Km. But she needs only 2 Litres xD. Motor has 425cc and 18HP (german horses D.I.N.) ~13kW. AND the best - only 4.5 Litres of gas on 100Km! Normal gas (85 ROZ) and she get's to true 100Km/hour on the Autobahn. She also light - 580Kg emtpy. With some gas and tools 600Kg. The allowed weight charge is 310Kg.
@@Michael-qy1jz No. The holes and lines for the oil and the tolerances between the engine parts are too narrow for such a thick oil on some newer cars. They need thinner oil for the right amount of oil pressure and oil flow quantity for the engine to run properly.
This is the channel we have all been waiting for, real knowledge about oil and put it to the test, in stead of underbelly science...... Real engine, real oil analysis. Thanks for sharing,
@@gacha24 most labs charge for digesting the sample and have a per element charge on top of that. Multiply that by the number of replicates and that gets expensive really fast. If you want to.do that, go ahead. They would love to take your money.
Very cool BUT with a N=1 on each test its not possible to draw a conclusion such as they did. We have no idea of the variability of the measurements. they might be +/- 30 which would mean its the same. Depending on the variability they might have to run 3, 6, 10 times. Sorry to burst your bubble guys but its an easy fix...repeat at least 3x to get a handle those stats
@@heofthebee Dummies believe Project Farm. They claimed fish-oil based WD-40 was a better penetrant than solvent-oil based PB Blaster. They are full of it.
@@heofthebee PF host is a smart guy who knows the basic scientific method to test hypotheses, but Lake is an actual tribologist with access to purpose-built oil test equipment. It ain't the same.
@@Good-luck-Jonathan designed for is a thing, have recomendation to use its other... there are engines that factory recommended X oil and the same engine (with no alterations) on a newer car they recommend other. Most times its not about tollerances, its about emissions and fuel comsuption. Honda civic type R fk2 honda recomended 0w20, or 0w30 or 5w30. 0w20 because of the fuel comsuption. 0w20 on petrol and 5w30 oils on diesel come on because of Kyoto protocol, and long life oil changes. 0w20 its used and recomended in Japan cars since 2000's years, and since that time in honda and toyota official repair shops they put 10w40 and 5w40 on them and not the 0w20...
@@marcocarvalho3619 I did go from 0w-20 to 5w-30 and fuel consumption was a lot higher. I would say just like the video if you go to higher viscosity, do oil analysis with the recommended viscosity and see how it does then do another with the higher viscosity. If wear goes down only a little then it might not be worth it. If a lot then yes it would be worth it. As I recall Lake did a video that showed the higher viscosity had more wear because it was to much so that is why you need to test and see.
Back in the day one of my manuals said 5w30 was acceptable below 70 ambient, 10w40 for -10 to 110, and 20w50 for 60 and above. That engine is still going with 680,000 on the clock. This was before they cared about mileage and the minute difference it would make.
@@GT-mn3bx nice what engine is this? I’m currently running a Nissan VR30DDTT and oem calls out for 0w20. There are arguments in the FB pages on whether or not to run 0w20, 5w30, 0w30, 0w40 or 5w40. OEM clearances are pretty tight, but this engine gets pushed to the extreme because of the tuning potential so lots of opinions being thrown around. I always suggest to use the oil depending on climate and usage of the vehicle. If the car spends its time at 220+ engine oil temp you’ll want the thicker viscosity, but how thick is too thick on a modern vehicle you know.
@@ZillaFullBoostHow thick is too thick is a fantastic question. My truck calls for 5-20 and I suspect it’s too thin. But I don’t want to have it rebuilt anytime soon so I don’t want to pour 5-30 in and somehow it not receive good lubrication.
I have my parents 58 cadillac they bought in 1960. As long as I can remember dad always ran 10 40 castrol in it. In 1982 it was given to me. By 2011 the blow by coming out of the down draft tube was just no longer tolerable. I had the engine rebuilt by a shop in business for 54 years. The gentleman who did the work was 74 years old. When the car was ready, I asked him his recommendation for the oil. He said , Castrol 20 50. That's what's in it now. I said really? He said yup trust me. Run that oil in it, these 365, 390 engines love it. We're in Southern California, no issues with the winter temps. 13 years now it's running great. And NO BLOW BY!
It use to be "urban legend" that 10w 40 oil was extra full of viscosity improver additives that diluted the desirable lube components of the product and promoted varnishing although that would not have been specific to Castrol. Some of those engines may have had excessively rich choke setting and/or choke pulloffs that didn't work properly and caused the engine to "load up" with increased fuel in oil dilution and wear, also some running without thermostat in the coolant circuit or a stuck open thermostat also contributing to rapid engine wear.
I'm 62 and have been running Castrol 20/50 in everything " but engines with VVT (veriable valve timing) " from dirt bikes at 14yrs. old to US V8s to my old 97 Camry with a quarter million miles now at the advice of my Pop. He was a Millwright . He always told me that it was the only regular engine oil that was approved for aircraft back in the 60-70s. So it must be good stuff. I never had any rod bearing or piston or ring failure since I was 14. And I run the piss out of stuff.
I knew it. I really did use a little bit thicker oil than what is usually recommended in my diesel trucks. And after so many years, I never had any engine problem with any of them but I could not help by being anxious from time to time as I was doing what is out of the norm. But this video can somehow give me a peace of mind now. Thank you so much TMOG for bringing this topic up.
I had a 76 Jimmy with a 350 and I always originally put the filter on empty when I changed oil, and it would clatter for several seconds before pressure built up on the gauge and the clatter would stop. I always hated that because I knew the engine was running with no oil and that was parts rubbing and wearing. One time, and this was back in the 1990's, I had the sudden idea to fill the filter before I installed it. The Fram filter at the time was the PH13, now the PH5, and it took a full quart. At the startup, it built pressure almost immediately with almost no clatter. I decided to prefill the filter from that point on. I was sold on the idea. Now granted, that engine was upwards of 200,000+ miles by that point and may have benefited from an engine rebuild, but I ran it as is. I recently sold it and the people who bought it are having a blast getting it up and running again.
Lake is by far the smartest guy around on oil. Simple explanation for the novices. For us that have been around both stock and racing engines for decades have been through these type tests, but its never too old to learn. Thanks Lake
You can definitely get some in there, and the filter will soak it up enough that it won't drip much, if at all.. and I think that's better than nothing.
If you have good access and you're quick, you can fill a horizontal filter to within a half-inch of the top and barely lose any oil at all. I've been doing this for 50 years.
I've been using 20w 50 regular oil yearly for my 1986 Porsche 928 with over 200k miles recommended by Porsche mechanics in southern California because of Thrust bearings failures on low viscosity oils.
@@outwiththem Yes 20w50 is warm weather only, oddly no one seems to agree on the minimum temperature for the stuff, got wildly different numbers when I looked for number.
@@MS-ig7ku Get a bottle of good 20W-50 and one of 5W-40 and do an informal pour test at your coldest winter temps. Make your own guess as to which oil will get to your bearing and camshafts faster at winter temps. The imagine your camshafts and cranks spinning almost dry at startup.
It just makes sense to prefill your filter. I've been prefilling for 30 years and now, when someone says," why you doing that? The internet says don't prefill." I can now respond, "The motor oil geek did real tests and proved prefilling to be beneficial!" Thanks!
I really don't see any reason to NOT fill your oil filter when changing oil. It only makes sense as to why it SHOULD be done. I can't think of any reason at all to NOT fill the filter before installing it, not one that would make any sense at all. So I'm not sure why there is any debate on this subject at all. Maybe someone could enlighten me on the reasoning people are using to claim pre-filling the filter is a bad thing???
@@johngreen6643 They say you are putting unfiltered oil in the clean side of the filter. That's the reason given. I think it was just click bait to get more views, & so..... a myth is born!!
@@josemanuelaviladossantos3705 Agreed. Thinking out loud. If we accept that the water came from the relative humidity of the air in the filter. Does it make any difference HOW the water got out of the air and could it be controlled? A vacuum should force the water to vaporize out , wheras compressing the air would cause condensation. 🤔
@@edwardclark7670 The pump pressure compressed the air condensing the water. Pre-filling displaces the air. Granted, there will always be some air in the system, but pre-filling the filter displaces better than 90% of it
Well, It looks like our shop will be updating oil change procedures to filling filters as mandatory. We intend to keep cars on the road as long as possible and we appreciate you guys testing this!
Im an old guy now and Ive been prefilling since I was 10. Didnt have data, just believed in the old guys who taught me back then. I have never missed a prefill, never cheated the bearings of anything I worked on. GREAT VIDEO
Got a 25 year old 5.3l Silverado with 500k km on the original drivetrain that says prefilling the filter doesn't hurt a thing. Just prefill the filter, you're going to put the oil in the engine anyway! Awesome mention of Project Farm! They aren't as precise but they give a good ballpark idea of what's good or not.
@@WalkerSmallEnginePerformance even then i put a little in it and roll it around. My theory is every little bit helps and soaking the element has to help some.
Manufacturers are under extreme pressure to achieve higher fuel efficiency and this is the main reason we have such thin oils as 0w8. Thin oils do save fuel. I will continue to use 5w30 or 0w30 in winter for all of my vehicles. If you get a new car every few years then the thin oils will be fine but I keep my cars as long as possible and 5w30 seems to be the ideal for me. The engines definitely run quieter.
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0w30 actually is better at summer too than 5w30, thanks to the higher viscosity index (given that both have the same viscosity at 100C).
No. 5W-30 is better in summer heat. 0W-30 like Mobil 1's AFE formula breaks down much easier than a 5W-30. 0W oils have more polymers that shear quite easily, allowing them to thin out and burn away. The base oil is always more robust than the polymers.
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@@Shadows-RC use a GTL based oil like Pennzoil Ultra. Their 0w30 will not break down, and it remains thicker above 100C than an 5w30. Higher VI not only means better cold flow but it remains thicker when hot. There may be exceptions but a 0wX is better on any climate than an 5wX if their 100C viscosity spec is equal.
Except they typically don't have the same viscosity. A 30 weight oil simply means it cleared the 30W bar. It could be a 30.1 or a 39.9 weight. To get an oil down to the 0W side (vs. 5W) they generally have to drag down the top end to the low side or use more viscosity modifiers that cause sheer under load and miles. Look at the HTHS and actual viscosity measurements at temp (see the PDS for the oils) and compare.
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@@iamgumbydammit2217 they don't have to if the viscosity index is high enough. Look at the viscosity of the Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0w30, that one is an exceptional one.
Really appreciate all the effort that goes into making this great content. I'd also suggest adding chapter markers to the video to help us follow along, especially for longer videos. Thanks you!
I have lost 2 engines due to oil dilution which made the engine oil so much thinner and due to OEM large bearing clearances, busted the rod bearings. For my application (hot climate, severe engine usage) , i will continue to use 50 weight oil. Thank you so much Lake and Ben for making the video.
Yeah, that would have been interesting, but in practice, we know that a thicker oil is an effective way to keep worn engines alive for a bit longer. It won't fix anything, but it sure helps quiet loose clearances, slow down oil consumption, boost low oil pressure, etc.
@@oneninerniner3427 A 10W-XX is fine if the lowest startup temperatures allow for that, but generally speaking, for keeping a worn engine alive, a thicker HOT viscosity is what may help, not so much the cold viscosity. Even the thinnest oils are way more than thick enough on cold startup.
Those windage losses are not something that the average person thinks much about but they're clearly significant. Thanks for all the info in your videos!
I have 2010 FJ cruiser. Toyota was recomending 0W20 for those sold in the united states; yet, internationally they were recommending up to 50 wieght. Same exact vehicle all over the world. I split the diffrence, as I don't live in extreme temps, and have stuck with 15w-30. The only explanation I have is they were willing to sacrifice life of the motor for increased fleet fuel efficiency in the States.
Cranking the engine with the fuel disabled until it builds oil pressure is an option, but I'm not entirely sure if that's actually much better for the engine since it will be rotating much longer without oil pressure since the oil pump is not efficient at ~200 RPM. And even if cranking to prefill does reduce bearing wear, I'm not sure the extra battery and starter wear would be a worthwhile trade off for most people since bearings hardly ever wear enough to be a problem for the first few hundred thousand miles while batteries and starters frequently do.
@@averyalexander2303 limited load with no combustion, so nano wear. As far as the paper element filters, again crank the engine over by disabling the injector fuse or ignition fuse. With a push button type ignition, hold gas pedal to the floor at the same time holding the brake pedal and push the ignition button letting the engine spin over for about 3-5 sec. Push ignition button again to stop the engine from cranking. This procedure will fill the oil filter. I have tested this--by removing the oil filter on a horizontal spin -on filter after performing the procedure above, oil drained out of the new filter as much as did the old filter when removing it.
so why are all newèr cars equiped with non spin on filters you cant prefill if it hurts so much? Also i work on wheeloaders with 3 oil filters who take 3-4L of oil each, none pre fills them and we have had no failure due to not pre filling.
@@alexstromberg7696 Some engines like Subaru have the flood mode so you can crank them without starting (vertical upside down filter on the top of the engine in a FA-series Subaru). I don't believe Hondas have a flood mode though, so with the horizontal filter on the F-series and K-series I don't really understand how you are supposed to prefill it.
@@alexstromberg7696 I’m not sure “All” cars is true. My Tacoma uses a can that I prefill. If you watched the video, failure wasn’t mentioned, wear was. Repeated wear isn’t every a good thing if you can avoid it.
Very cool BUT with a N=1 on each test its not possible to draw a conclusion such as they did. We have no idea of the variability of the measurements. they might be +/- 30 which would mean its the same. Depending on the variability they might have to run 3, 6, 10 times. Sorry to burst your bubble guys but its an easy fix...repeat at least 3x to get a handle those stats
30:50 Pre-filling the filter may not be possible on every engine. All of my diesel engines have a large cartridge filter on top of the engine, instead of a bottom-mounted screw-on filter type like your test engine, meaning that pre-filling oil will only drop back down into the wet sump and potentially overfill the engine. In such cases, having an electric auxiliary oil pump pressurising and circulating the oil before first crank goes a long way to reducing cold-start damage.
I have always ran 10-30 Castrol motor oil, And the engines in my rigs never used oil, unless the engine was worn when I got it,,, Most of the engines I have owned had a side mounted filter,,, so they always went on dry,,, Thank you for your informative work on wear in engines based on oil type and techniques in using it,, :-),
Love these videos. I run a semi, and i feel like this makes a huge difference for the big trucks that are expected to go 750K-1M MILES before an overhaul. I do have a question though. Could you please do a in depth video on what are the actual problems running a thicker or thinner oil in engines that the manufacturer recommends. Other than oil pressure being higher or lower, is there a tangable difference?
I always use a little bit thicker oil than they call for plus pre-fill the filter. They were specifying super thin oils for gas mileage for one. A slightly thicker oil provides better protection. I was figuring this, but THANK YOU FOR PROVING IT. I'm 69 years old and have been working on cars and maintaining them for decades as an amateur. .
You said: 'A slightly thicker oil provides better protection' Not true. If your clearances are small, running a thicker oil means you don't get the flow to the part thus you aren't lubricating at all. Manufacturers design their engines for specific purposes. They have set diameter galleys, hoses, and clearances for journals. Then you come along and decide 'Nah, I'll make my own mind up' Well, that's up to you, but saying 'Thicker oil protects better' is nonsense.
@@Hypersonik Manufacturers LIE. They say to use a thinner oil for MPG. You can go SLIGHTLY thicker. You believe the car companies oil change intervals also? Go ahead. listen to that shit , and it WILL cut a lot of life out of the motor. ANOTHER example where they LIE.
@@coreytran7415 Nice one. All you have to do is tell me why what. I said was rubbish and then you won't need to show yourself as 4 years old. So explain to us all why what I said was wrong :)
Would love to see this testing on a basic, modern, tight tolerance, daily driver engine which is what many/most of us are trying to get theost out of. Thanks for the great info.
Project farm is a joke. They claimed WD-40 is a better penetrant than solvent-based PB Blaster WD-40 is for drying out ignition components and light lubrication. I blocked their nonsense.
The water in the oil is coming from the air (atmosphere) that was in the unfilled filter. When that air is compressed rapidly (as the oil fills the system) and then decompresses as the oil pressure drops, a "cloud" forms. Tiny droplets of moisture are basically being extracted from that volume of atmosphere that was in the dry filter when it was installed. WILD! I didnt see that coming either.
2 take aways: - pre fill the filter, just in case. - use the correct viscocity for your bearing clearances. Thanks for doing the testing Lake. You're doing Gods work by helping people out in the small parts of thier lives.
Bearing clearances is a BS excuse. Projectfarms ran 0w20 vs 5w30 in a lubricity test where there is no bearing clearance. The 5w30 had less wear, so if 0w20 was a clearance issue, it should have done better than 5w30.
@@dfloper the real one would be the god that chooses to speak for himself and not solely through the mouths of men - and that god hasn't appeared yet .
I have noticed increased oil change intervals on my 2018 silverado 5.3 w/a catch can. I currently have 8k on my oil (0w20 costco) and it still has good color on the dipstick. Previously the oil would be dark/black by 20% on the oil monitor in about 5k miles. I'm in a northern cold humid climate.
This helps validate my choice of going with 5w30 in my brand new 2024 Mazda Miata Club over the “recommended” 0w20. I preformed an initial oil change at 800 miles from the factory fill and after watching a ton of Lakes videos I am going with Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 in a prefilled Wix filter! I live in North Carolina and my Miata won’t be exposed to very cold weather and feel this oil will serve me well. Thank you for all the great information and amazing content!
What's wild is in the 2017 Miata owners manual, they recommend 0w20 for the US and Canada, and 5w30 in all other regions. Same story with the BRZ; Canada and US only lists 0w20 as suitable, where the Japanese manual lists 0w20, 5w30, and 5w40, noting that 0w20 will yeild the best fuel economy. It's obvious that they're choosing emissions and fuel economy over engine longevity.
@SpencerWatches Exactly. My wife's 2013 2.4 Honda (now is my Daughter's) is the same way, factory recommended strictly 0w20 unless nothing else is available. The same engine (2.4L) in other countries, which is identical there and here, depending on the country is approved up to 5w40. Commonly recommended viscosity was 5w30. The only few countries had a 0w20 recommendation, all of the 0w20 countries were C.A.F.E countries. I searched many engines out of curiosity, using "recommended oil" choice by country on a Castrol site. I live in the deep south US, and the summer morning are often 80 deg+ at dawn, and 100+ daytime summer temps are run-of-the-mill. I run 5w30 in my wife's Mazda cx90 and 5w20 in the Honda. The honda lives a cush life and never driven hard, and the Mazda for that matter. The honda also runs relatively low oil temps, so I'm confident in synthetic 5w20 with its oil temp and bearing journal clearances. The Mazda is turbo, inherently runs hotter oil temps, so a synthetic 5w30 is my choice in our climate.
@@MightyS-1 Best fuel economy goes hand in hand with more power too though. The 5W30 might be costing 0.5-1hp or something compared to the 0W20. It depends how the car is going to be used (will the MX-5 do track days) and how hot the oil will get (0W8 or 0W16 generally not a problem for Toyota Priuses for instance which will never be driven hard and the oil won't get hot at all), no? It's not unheard of for small block racing engines like the LS in the video (or older Windsors or SBCs) to run 0W20 for qualifying for the extra power and then run a 5W30 for a 1000km race. Conventional wisdom may be to run a 10W50 or 10W60 racing oil in a race motor like that but that's not necessary anymore with modern racing oils, you can have the extra power from the thinner oil and *still* have no appreciable wear when the engine is rebuilt at 3000km.
When racing go karts 35 years ago, the only thing that worked was straight weight oil. It was explained to me that to give it a range, you were swapping out actual lubricant for friction modifiers that you really didnt need. I still use multi-weight oil in road going vehicles but I limit the spread. I have a yukon with 324k, a highlander with 308k, two xterras in the mid 200ks, and so on.
Oh, and I now want SO BADLY the same test to be carried in a 1.5L 4cyl modern turbocharged engine if possible! Especially a Toyota/Honda one that are "designed" (due to CAFE idiots) to run on 0w20 or thinner. And to have an even broader comparison, use 3 different viscosities: 0w20, 5w40 and 20w60. I know I'm asking for too much but I hope to see it as your channel keeps growing Lake!
I've always pre-filled my oil filters. I figured the less time it takes to build up oil pressure, the better, even if it was only a couple of seconds difference. Now I know why it's a good idea. Thanks for doing these tests! 😊
Newer subscriber here, love your fact-based science!!! I have a 2022 GMC with a 3.0 liter that calls for 0w20 oil. I'm not in love with such a thin oil but would like to see what your take is on the common question of running something just a bit heavier than what is spec'd. I know the "warranty safe" answer but also saw a video where the lower end bearing spec for GM 3.0, 5.3, and 6.2 was given. All 3 engines called for a different weight oil but there was overlap/shared tolerances between 3.0/5.3, 5.3/6.2. I'd be happy to lose some in mpg for an oil that gives the engine a longer life. I love science and intelligence. That keeps me from making "gut feeling" changes or "doin what ole grandpappy" always did. Video please:)
FWIW I'm using 5W-30 instead of 0W-20 in my wife's 2018 Jeep Cherokee after the warranty expired and noticed a definite difference in engine noise. It's a 2.4 Multiair and it's working like it should too. We're in a southern climate, though.
I had a 01 Grand Am 2.4l in Phoenix for 12 years. I was using 5w 40 synthetic oil and sold it when moving out of state with 327k miles. Manual called for either 5 or 10 w 30 oil. When some mechanics used 20w 50, the oil pressure sensor blew and started hemorrhaging oil until the oil pressure light came on. Be careful with too thick oil. I chose Mobil European 5w 40 because its specs were almost identical to 10w 30. It took Arizona heat without any problem.
"I don't really care about speculations or opinions; we're going to let the data show us which one works best." That is without a doubt the greatest quotes of all time! I was honestly hoping for a 5w20 vs 10w30 comparison, and hopefully you'll perform that test in the future. :) Regardless, my engine calls for 0w20 and I will never run oil that thin - 5w30 will remain my standard, and this data backs up that choice.
During the winter, if you're seeing 32F, 0W20 or even 0W16 is a good idea, don't believe me? Freeze your favorite oils and do a pour test...Frozen 0W20 flowed like molasses.
Those tests done were great for a hi po engine, the problem is that dual overhead cam engines that we drive here on Earth can be damaged if you run 20-50 oil and will void your warranty. Plus 20w 50 oil can cause sludge buildup, excess friction, varnish deposits, problems with oil burning and oil pressure, damage the cat, and even affect your engine life, especially with dual overhead cam engines. The Hellcat Redeye engine the owner's manual says 0w 40, maybe that's the oil you should test next instead of 20w 50? Chrysler says that using 20w 50 in that engine can damage the engine. Turbo-charged engines will see turbos destroy themselves using 20w 50 due to the very tight tolerances of the bearings inside the turbos.
mate thats complete BS. Heaps of trucks run 15w40 engine oil with very expensive turbos. zero issues and guess what 15w40 i cold weather is thicker than 20w50 in hot weather... so if what you are saying was true all these engines would have issues in cold weather but they don't because you're wrong, that tight tolerance argument is a myth
I've learned more about lubrication, oil quality, viscosity, Top Tier gasoline, time span between oil changes and many other valuable info' to maintain my vehicles, since I started listening to Lake Speed's advice, than with any other expert on these issues. Period.
Iron levels nearly tripled with the thinner oil after the Dino runs….. Bit more wear happening. Would it be correct in concluding that a thicker oil would be better in a daily driven, frequent ‘stop-start’ engine. We’re the thinner viscosity would drain off the bearings etc….
Retired HD Mech. since I started in late 60s our service manuals all stated to prime our rebuilds, fill our primary lub. filters, same as fuel systems, done it on each and every change on my vehicles.
I always prefill the filter before shaking the jug. I shake the jug before pouring into the engine though. The reason being, if by chance something got into the oil where they bottled it, I want it to get filtered out before going to the heads/lifters.
@@jeremymyers5643 its good to know what it should smell like, thats just one way to do it I did it by getting covered in oil when taking off oil pan before, apparently 2 ish quarts remained below the level of the oil pan bolt and the baffling
I always prefill my filters and I've never heard the argument not to. That few seconds difference to build pressure adds up over an engines life time of oil changes.
The dumbest argument I have heard from a well known TH-cam channel is that pre filling the oil filter contaminates the oil. My reply is if the new engine oil is contaminated by adding it to the filter you might want to change brands. The oil is the same oil you are pouring in the engine to begin with. I have always pre filled my filters and although you cannot completely fill a horizontal mount filter I usually fill the filter close to half and allow a couple of minutes for the paper element to absorb before I install the filter.
You under Warranty? If so, no, in the hotter months try Redline or Shaeffers, they both have over 300 in molyb. If you're off warranty, over 70F I use 0W30 or 10W30 with Marvel Mystery Oil which thins it a bit, in both RDXs that recomment 0W20. Then for winter, back to 0W20. I always use full synthetics, whatever is on sale.
"aplication dictates chemistry".......thank you once again for giving me peace of mind and hope you`ll keep it going- best wishes from your silent follower...
This test confirms what I was told 30 years ago in my shop classes. Great video this is the second video I have watched of yours now and I'm enjoying the channel as a true gearhead I can appreciate the knowledge. So my question comes from because when I was at school, small block Chevys, Chrysler small blocks, Ford small blocks and Chevrolet at Ford were brand new late model engines and 5/30 was a pretty thin oil modern oil, today arguably these engines are dinosaurs and the oil is thick by modern standards so my question is a lot of these newer vehicles require a lower viscosity oil when they are brand new, as they age add fall out of warranty does any harm happen by putting in a thicker oil for example a hemi reqires 5/20 so would any harm happen from putting in thicker oil such as 20/50? That engine too is now somewhat outdated but how about these 0/8 or 0/12 oils can they be replaced with thicker oil. I only use the Dodge truck engine (the 5.7 hemi) because I'm extremely familiar with it and they are notorious for getting lifter failures and I would think a thicker oil would help prevent these issues just because there is more of a cushion so to speak compared to the more modern watery oils.
I have believed thinner oils cause more wear and this test seems to prove that. I personally run 5w-30 in my 5w20 motor and it takes it just fine as I can tell. I looked up bearing clearances compared to a 5w-30 motor and saw no difference in the specs.
What about oil jet squirters, galleys, cam caps etc? BMW S65 engines run 10w60 oil and they lunch bearings. Stop trying to second guess the manufacturer - they spend MILLIONS on testing and you don't.
@Hypersonik That assumes you know the engineering constraints the manufacturer used to spec the oil. You're assuming that the manufacturers' goal is maximum longevity when it could be something else. The manufacturer could just as easily decide that the extra half mpg from running a thinner oil is worth an increase in wear. That doesn't mean the layperson is correct to arbitrarily change the specs, but it also doesn't mean the manufacturer has the same priorities as the end customer.
@@jericho86 You said: 'That assumes you know the engineering constraints the manufacturer used to spec the oil.' PRECISELY! If the manufacturer is telling you to use a certain oil, why would you ignore them? You can speculate about MPG/CO2 etc, but if they really wanted to, they'd specify a range of oils and they'd tell you what works best for economy. Manufacturers test the oil for hundreds of hours, full power, full load, continuously. They spend $millions on engine tests alone. The lay person does not. So all the layperson is doing is guessing. Unless you go with the manufacturer.
@@Hypersonikthey also make millions on engines that only last a hundred thousand miles. And it would cost them millions to use thicker oil that would protect the engine better, but would cost fuel mileage, or create a tiny bit more emissions. I live in Florida, and if you think that I should put the exact same oil in my car as someone in northern Minnesota does, then you're not thinking very clearly. Just like OE tires are not ideal for any conditions, but they're okay for all conditions. When a car is built, the manufacturer doesn't know if it's going to Florida or Alaska, so they make oil recommendations that will be "OK" in all climates, but ideal in very few climates.
Another amazing content as usual. The only regret is that you spend so much time for a no brainer so called debate, pre-filling or not. In this vein, I propose the next video to be the hot topic, Engine with oil vs Engine with no oil 🙄🙄 Yeah I wished you would have spent more time for more in depth information about the differences in oil viscosity and the results in different conditions. Thank you so much anyway for this valuable information provided!
38 years ago I asked a Pennzoil engineer if the recommended 5-30 was a good idea for my new Olds with the V-6 Buick. Or I was used to 10W-30. He mentioned that the primary reason for the thinner oil recommended was to help meet fuel economy numbers. His conclusion was either would be ok but since I was living in a warm climate… the 10-30 would be fine and maybe better
Guys I see that you using a blend oil if I remember right that's like 12% synthetic and the rest of the qt is petroleum, I have to ask why didn't you use full synthetic, but I am a fan of you guys and I really trust what you say cuz you guys are the ones that I listen to so thank you very much for the video I hope my response to your video does not offend anybody
I have been prefilling oil filters for 30 years and it's just common sense. The extra volume of air in an empty filter has to be displaced for one thing, so that air has to get pushed up through the engine before dissipating around the bearings, so no oil until that happens. Your oiling system is designed to always have oil in the filter, so why wouldn't anyone do that with an oil change? Great video! Love the real info!
The Engine Masters got exactly the same results in tests they did recently!!! I'm upgrading the 5W-20 to 5W-30 on my 2023 KIA Sportage, especially down at Puerto Rico, where it's hot & muggy!!!
One thing I like to do with engines if I’m not able to fill the filter up is crack it with no spark so it doesn’t run but can still build pressure and fill the filter. Can you test how much wear you get from that since there’s less pressures?
So now we need a new test. To me this is running the cylinder without the benefit of the cooling and little lube provided by the fuel. Warm engine with NO cylinders firing for a short time maybe doesn't matter.
I built a small block 350 and dropped it in my 79 Nova that originally came with a factory 305 and a manual 4 speed. I religiously used Castrol 20-50 in that car & hot rodded that car for 5 years. I remember the throttle stuck on the Carter AFB one night & I just kept going & shifting through all 4 gears before shutting it down & addressing the problem. After I sold it to a friend he had it torn apart because he figured the way I abused that engine that it would need a rebuild. Upon inspection everything was super clean with nearly no signs of any wear at all. Maybe it was the meticulous attention to my assembly of the engine? Maybe the use of a high volume high pressure oil pump?? (I remember the Mallory oil gauge topping out at about 85psi when it was started in cold weather.) But anyways I believe the thicker oil played a huge role in protecting the internal parts from wear. I don't have any scientific evidence to prove it but I think this little experiment has proven that maybe that was the case indeed! Thanks guys, always enjoy your videos, because you can't really argue with scientific proof. Very cool.
I prefilled my oil filter by putting my car/truck in " flood mode:. Push the accelerator to the floor and crank the starter about 8-10 seconds. It fills the filter doing so. Lift off the accelerator and hit the starter and it starts immediately with full oil pressure.
I'm from Philippines, I've been doing my research for the past few months for my modified engine so that I can figure out what is the best engine oil to use. What viscosity and do i use thick or thin. Been asking the oil suppliers for friction test, heat test and etc. Most of them didn't replied, they are local Filipino brands and some are so called branded. Now because of this I will surely take care of my forst motorcycle because I appreciate the engines and machines so I take care of them like how I take care of myself. Thanks for the expertly crafted test
I'm learning things here! Regarding the full vs empty filter - there is another option I learned many years ago. I had one customer with a 320I that insisted the filter be pre-filled because he had read it would reduce the wear. This was his first oil change in my shop and also happens to be the first time he was actually present for his oil changes. Up to this point I was a dry filter guy. To both of our surprise the engine - refused - to develop any oil pressure even with a moderately increased idle speed. Only after swapping a new dry filter could we get oil pressure. With the dry filter the oil pressure increased to normal in a matter of a couple of seconds. After some thought and review of the oil system I concluded that the oil pump was draining creating an air lock that could not create enough pressure to force the oil thru the oil soaked filter media which in turn did not allow the pump to develop enough suction to re-prime. On his next oil change I only filled the filter 3/4 full to allow an airspace in the filter and pressure came up as expected. I've seen the same phenomena on other vehicles in the years since. I no longer, completely, fill an oil filter unless I know that particular vehicle's system won't air lock.
Thanks for all the comments! I wish I had time to read and respond to all of them, but I still have a day job that keeps me very busy! Fortunately, that "day job" allows me to go to a lot of cool places where we can sneak in a video sometimes, so it works out in the end as a positive.
For those with horizontally mounted or inverted filters, see if your vehicle has clear flood mode. If so, that's a great way to prime the oiling system before the higher pressures of combustion kick in.
Where would one look for "clear flood mode" information? I've never heard of such a thing, or seen such a phrase in the owner's manual.
I searched for "clear flood mode" in the PDF workshop manual, for my 2005 Jaguar (with horizontal oil filter) and "No matches were found."
What about cartridge filters? Should we soak the filter first and then place it in the cap, with oil up to the brim? Many thanks!
@EdAb I don't think every car has it. If you have an inverted or horizontal filter, even some oil is better than no oil.
@EdAb basically the ability to run the starter without fuel or spark activated.
Ive got one of my cars that i dont drive very often, wired so that i have the factory fuel injectors fuse, like 10 amps, going through a simple switch, so i can crank with the spark still going and once i crank and see oil pressure i just flip the switch and it lights off. Its also great to test for leaking fuel injectors and a theft switch.
@@danbusey Thanks for that explanation!
This channel is a must for car enthusiasts
Thank you!
Motorbikes too, but I wish Lake would test some motorcycle engines and bust some myths.
@@davidcann8788 That would be fun! What are motorcycle oil myths? Do air-cooled (oil-cooled) cars and bikes need to run different oils than water-cooled ones? Do rotary bikes (and cars) have different oil requirements?
Especially for gear heads
It's a must for people who want to believe a bunch of self-aggrandizing BS from a guy who claims scientific principle but doesn't adhere to it
This channel and Project Farm has saved me $$ from not buying products with trial and error 😡 Valuable information ℹ️
PF is a legend, TMOG is getting there.
@@MonkeyPunchZPokerlake is a true tribologist. PF will never be on his level on knowledge with oil. Those oil tests from project farms is a joke. I do like pf tool tests tho.
@@jwatt95 Love PF...most of his tests are great, but sometimes he is way off the mark because he doesn't quite understand something or how something works....
Love to see the data from both channels not just a guy saying he put it in his car and it was good or bad.
If he could only figure out how to save us all from chinesium junk car parts... 🔔😎
I have always prefilled my oil filters. My dad and grandpa taught me to always prefill the oil filter. They both gave a simple reason for it. Don't make the motor wait for oil.
It sure doesn't hurt anything.
After you run the engine if the filter is vertical with the mating surface up, the oil doesn't drain out..... that is the 'normal' condition.. so why not just fill it. I don't get people arguing against pre-fill
They were amongst the wisest of men. 3-6 seconds of no or low oil pressure at 1200rpm on a cold start elevated idle speed is never good. Not only pre fill the filter but change the oil while the motor is hot. Reason being, when starting it will go straight to the normal (lower)idle speed.
@@gothicpagan.666 prefill yes, hot change vs warm change, not much difference. They say so the old oil will drain out of the block,but it does that every time you shut it off. Only benefit is the oil flows out of the pan better.
That is the simple truth and based in physics I have no idea the logic people would have for not pre-filling.
Mmm project farm reference, I love when the channels I watch are watching each other.
That's how you know you are watching the right people :D
This just popped up on my feed. Todd does an awesome job no matter what he's testing.
You mshould give Project Farm a kiss.
I was an auto mechanic for many years, never prefilled an oil filter. To the best of my knowledge no one else did. I'm refilling NOW!
You taught the old dog a new trick. Thanks for your expertly done tests. You are who I look to for knowledge on these topics.
really how odd logic says pre fill
After 74 years, I now prefill.
I did my first oil change around 45 years ago and was shocked by the rod knock until the oil came through. Ever since I’ve always pre-filled the filter.
Today I want to fit a 2 micron bypass filter that flows in parallel with the standard filter. The snag is finding the necessary components.
Ive prefilled filters for years where possible. It only makes sense because the bearings dont run "dry" for as long.
I have always prefilled my filters if possible from 1965 on .
I've been an engineer and auto technician for over 40 years. I have always prefilled the filter. Even if it's on a slight angle(old fords) I would try to put as much oil in as I could without it running out.
On my BMW E36 track car, that doesn't get used a lot especially in the winter, I installed an electric oil pump. When I turn the ignition on the ECU runs that pump until I get over 30 PSI of oil pressure.
No matter how long the car sits I never have a dry start.
My background is in Electronics and Automotive technology and I have wanted to do something like that for nearly 40 years. When I was a kid my dad had a system on his Humber for introducing a certain amount of upper cylinder lubricant (Redex) into the intake manifold on cold starts. Ever since then I always wondered why there wasn't a system like the one you described. How did you implement it and what kind of an electric oil pump did you use. TIA
I am the chief engineer for Hyde Motorworks.
I originally built this for my own car, 650 whp 2.3L TVS supercharged 3 l M50. My track toy. now I am developing it for customers.
I used a relatively inexpensive gear type oil pump from Amazon. It has a brass housing and stainless steel gears. I use a -8 line from a fitting in where the oil drain plug used to be. Not ideal but I didn't want to take the pan off again. Braided stainless over rubber line to the inlet of the pump. -6 line out. First to a 10 micron inline oil filter, then a one-way check valve, to T where the oil pressure switch is. It's not high volume with the restrictive lines. And the small Port where the oil pressure switch goes.
The pump itself is not designed to pump such heavy oil, and will overheat and shut down if I try to run it too long. But even after a complete oil change it only has to run about 5 Seconds to build 40 PSI of pressure. Cold the pump will run more than 30 seconds. So it does the job.
There are more expensive continuous duty oil pumps. They are used on small aircraft engines. But they cost over 1K. Back when I had oil starvation issues on high G corners, I thought about buying one. But then I realized the starvation issue was because the oil wasn't draining back to the pan fast enough and that pump would just be sucking air the same as the mechanical one.
So far I've had this exact same setup and pump on my car for over 5 years with zero problems. Last year I even dropped the pan and inspected the bearings. Despite all of the abuse they looked almost perfect.
@@kcdesignconcepts5216 I had 4 of those E36 models and an E21 as well. I wish I still had one, they were better made than what followed.
I'm so glad to find so many like-minded people here. I pre-fill my filter so I can get the level on the dipstick right the first time without having to faff around making up for that volume of oil that an empty filter takes up.
@@kcdesignconcepts5216 mech engineer here working in API rotating equipment...I do most of my own auto work. One thing I don't know for sure is, do all street car engines have the oil pressure switch upstream of the bearings? I assume yes but just seeing if you knew otherwise. Basically I've wanted to do this on my 12 Civic, 18 Camry, 05 Highlander.....basically any car I own. I'd love to know the make and model of the pump you use. Thank you! Lake confirmed pumping is different than pouring when it comes to cold pour tests but here in dead of winter, heck ya I'd like to start after oil pressure is satisfied.
I’ve been changing the oil in all my vehicles for the last 24 years. Today was the first day I’ve ever prefilled the oil filter. My engine thanks you, Lake!
ALWAYS knew that pre lubing an oil filter IS A MUST and that too thin of oil causes EXCESSIVE wear . Thanks for PROVING it.
On quite a few motors you just can't prefill !!!
Oil filter in wranglers with Pentastar engine have filter on top of engine. It to mention cartridge style... so yes I can't either
5:21 please check with Jeep, there is a way to spin the motor to get oil pressure before you start the engine. This primes the engine...
FreddieB (MA)@wailingalen
@@FreddieB-MAas a dealership technician they do not tell us to do this or explain how to do this when we first join the express team. this goes for jeep and Subaru
In the test they are using a system with no oil filter bypass. This is completely useless in the real world. Cold weather start without a bypass would trash an engine. All manufacturers have an oil filter bypass to prevent engine damage from the filter.
Very intuitive results. I was always a fan of 20W-50, and these ridiculously thin oils today are due to carmakers clawing for every last MPG, and a few ppm reduction in emissions, to try to satisfy stricter and stricter government regulations.
right. As a clock and watchmaker my feeling is the ticker the oil the less wear you have FOR THE PRICE of energy e.g. it does give more "stickyness" which needs to be overcome be the mecanisms. I drive a Citroën Dyane (luxury 2CV) first model generation of 1967. No oil filter! The manual say changing every 5'000Km but I do it every 2'500Km. But she needs only 2 Litres xD. Motor has 425cc and 18HP (german horses D.I.N.) ~13kW. AND the best - only 4.5 Litres of gas on 100Km! Normal gas (85 ROZ) and she get's to true 100Km/hour on the Autobahn.
She also light - 580Kg emtpy. With some gas and tools 600Kg. The allowed weight charge is 310Kg.
@@Watchmaker_Gereon-Schloesser
Rust ate my Citroën away... 😢
So after listening to this, would you run 20-50 in these newer cars like q Ford Focus 2ltr?
@@Michael-qy1jz No. The holes and lines for the oil and the tolerances between the engine parts are too narrow for such a thick oil on some newer cars. They need thinner oil for the right amount of oil pressure and oil flow quantity for the engine to run properly.
@@ralfrufus6573 Thanks!
This is the channel we have all been waiting for, real knowledge about oil and put it to the test, in stead of underbelly science...... Real engine, real oil analysis.
Thanks for sharing,
Thank you!
As an analytical chemist, I love seeing proper experiment design and proper sampling technique. Great job! Awesome video!
Thank you!
@@themotoroilgeek how about repeatability and reproducibility? They skipped that part didn't they :)
No.
@@gacha24 most labs charge for digesting the sample and have a per element charge on top of that. Multiply that by the number of replicates and that gets expensive really fast. If you want to.do that, go ahead. They would love to take your money.
Very cool BUT with a N=1 on each test its not possible to draw a conclusion such as they did. We have no idea of the variability of the measurements. they might be +/- 30 which would mean its the same. Depending on the variability they might have to run 3, 6, 10 times. Sorry to burst your bubble guys but its an easy fix...repeat at least 3x to get a handle those stats
Love the shoutout to Project Farm. Great channel.
Thanks!
Shout out to his brother😂
Smart Pups watch Project Farm. I love this channel as well. Notice that both channels have
humble modest Hosts and both have fun while doing.
@@heofthebee Dummies believe Project Farm. They claimed fish-oil based WD-40 was a better penetrant than solvent-oil based PB Blaster.
They are full of it.
@@heofthebee PF host is a smart guy who knows the basic scientific method to test hypotheses, but Lake is an actual tribologist with access to purpose-built oil test equipment. It ain't the same.
Prefilled my oil filters for the past 55 years and intend to do so for as long as I'm alive !
i want to see the same test on an engine design for 0w-20 oil
How you no if a engine is designed for 0w20?
@@marcocarvalho3619 Go by what it states in owners manual on the oil fill cap 0W-20 oil. Those engines all have tight tolerances.
@@Good-luck-Jonathan designed for is a thing, have recomendation to use its other... there are engines that factory recommended X oil and the same engine (with no alterations) on a newer car they recommend other. Most times its not about tollerances, its about emissions and fuel comsuption. Honda civic type R fk2 honda recomended 0w20, or 0w30 or 5w30. 0w20 because of the fuel comsuption. 0w20 on petrol and 5w30 oils on diesel come on because of Kyoto protocol, and long life oil changes. 0w20 its used and recomended in Japan cars since 2000's years, and since that time in honda and toyota official repair shops they put 10w40 and 5w40 on them and not the 0w20...
@@marcocarvalho3619 I did go from 0w-20 to 5w-30 and fuel consumption was a lot higher. I would say just like the video if you go to higher viscosity, do oil analysis with the recommended viscosity and see how it does then do another with the higher viscosity. If wear goes down only a little then it might not be worth it. If a lot then yes it would be worth it. As I recall Lake did a video that showed the higher viscosity had more wear because it was to much so that is why you need to test and see.
Putting all of the bro science theories to rest 1 video at a time 👌🏽
Yes, whenever a commenter includes “bro”, I discount them immediately.
Rock on!
Back in the day one of my manuals said 5w30 was acceptable below 70 ambient, 10w40 for -10 to 110, and 20w50 for 60 and above.
That engine is still going with 680,000 on the clock. This was before they cared about mileage and the minute difference it would make.
@@GT-mn3bx nice what engine is this?
I’m currently running a Nissan VR30DDTT and oem calls out for 0w20. There are arguments in the FB pages on whether or not to run 0w20, 5w30, 0w30, 0w40 or 5w40. OEM clearances are pretty tight, but this engine gets pushed to the extreme because of the tuning potential so lots of opinions being thrown around.
I always suggest to use the oil depending on climate and usage of the vehicle. If the car spends its time at 220+ engine oil temp you’ll want the thicker viscosity, but how thick is too thick on a modern vehicle you know.
@@ZillaFullBoostHow thick is too thick is a fantastic question. My truck calls for 5-20 and I suspect it’s too thin. But I don’t want to have it rebuilt anytime soon so I don’t want to pour 5-30 in and somehow it not receive good lubrication.
This upload will likely launch this channel onto a whole new level.
I have my parents 58 cadillac they bought in 1960. As long as I can remember dad always ran 10 40 castrol in it. In 1982 it was given to me. By 2011 the blow by coming out of the down draft tube was just no longer tolerable. I had the engine rebuilt by a shop in business for 54 years. The gentleman who did the work was 74 years old. When the car was ready, I asked him his recommendation for the oil. He said , Castrol 20 50. That's what's in it now. I said really? He said yup trust me. Run that oil in it, these 365, 390 engines love it. We're in Southern California, no issues with the winter temps. 13 years now it's running great. And NO BLOW BY!
It use to be "urban legend" that 10w 40 oil was extra full of viscosity improver additives that diluted the desirable lube components of the product and promoted varnishing although that would not have been specific to Castrol.
Some of those engines may have had excessively rich choke setting and/or choke pulloffs that didn't work properly and caused the engine to "load up" with increased fuel in oil dilution and wear, also some running without thermostat in the coolant circuit or a stuck open thermostat also contributing to rapid engine wear.
@@davidpowell3347 not to mention the disadvantages of the road draft tube as opposed to having some kind of PCV system.
I'm 62 and have been running Castrol 20/50 in everything " but engines with VVT (veriable valve timing) " from dirt bikes at 14yrs. old to US V8s to my old 97 Camry with a quarter million miles now at the advice of my Pop. He was a Millwright . He always told me that it was the only regular engine oil that was approved for aircraft back in the 60-70s. So it must be good stuff. I never had any rod bearing or piston or ring failure since I was 14. And I run the piss out of stuff.
its 2024, 5w50 is going to be better at everything
I knew it. I really did use a little bit thicker oil than what is usually recommended in my diesel trucks. And after so many years, I never had any engine problem with any of them but I could not help by being anxious from time to time as I was doing what is out of the norm. But this video can somehow give me a peace of mind now. Thank you so much TMOG for bringing this topic up.
You, Banks Power, and Project Farm are like the holy trinity of actually testing things
Thank you! I appreciate being considered alongside those guys.
I had a 76 Jimmy with a 350 and I always originally put the filter on empty when I changed oil, and it would clatter for several seconds before pressure built up on the gauge and the clatter would stop. I always hated that because I knew the engine was running with no oil and that was parts rubbing and wearing. One time, and this was back in the 1990's, I had the sudden idea to fill the filter before I installed it. The Fram filter at the time was the PH13, now the PH5, and it took a full quart. At the startup, it built pressure almost immediately with almost no clatter. I decided to prefill the filter from that point on. I was sold on the idea.
Now granted, that engine was upwards of 200,000+ miles by that point and may have benefited from an engine rebuild, but I ran it as is. I recently sold it and the people who bought it are having a blast getting it up and running again.
It's pretty hard to argue with your observations. But a few guys here will try anyways!
Lake is by far the smartest guy around on oil. Simple explanation for the novices. For us that have been around both stock and racing engines for decades have been through these type tests, but its never too old to learn. Thanks Lake
A lot of vehicles can't have the filter pre-filled as they mount horizontally
You can definitely get some in there, and the filter will soak it up enough that it won't drip much, if at all.. and I think that's better than nothing.
@@ronp4529yes, you would be surprised how much a horizontal oil filter can absorb and not drip back out during installation
If you have good access and you're quick, you can fill a horizontal filter to within a half-inch of the top and barely lose any oil at all. I've been doing this for 50 years.
I’ve modified the hoist in my shop so I can safely rotate vehicles 90 degrees.
Problem solved.
You put is so much effort in this test. Yet, you presented the results in a chaotic way, very briefly, and jumping back and forth.
@viktorpaulsen627 And what, exactly are you contributing?
@@caseyalexander2244 What do you mean? Do you disagree with my description?
@viktorpaulsen627 Your opinion isn't adding to the discussion. So yes.
Been prefilling my oil filters and cartridges since day one of owning a car! Great to hear the old timers taught us right!
I've been using 20w 50 regular oil yearly for my 1986 Porsche 928 with over 200k miles recommended by Porsche mechanics in southern California because of Thrust bearings failures on low viscosity oils.
20w50 is great in old Porsches, VWs, Volvos, and motorcycles.
@@MS-ig7ku And all old engines except in freezing weather, Then i use 10W30 on my old cars and family old cars too. We hate debt.
@@outwiththem Yes 20w50 is warm weather only, oddly no one seems to agree on the minimum temperature for the stuff, got wildly different numbers when I looked for number.
Have you try the thick oil on brand new Porsche?
@@MS-ig7ku Get a bottle of good 20W-50 and one of 5W-40 and do an informal pour test at your coldest winter temps. Make your own guess as to which oil will get to your bearing and camshafts faster at winter temps. The imagine your camshafts and cranks spinning almost dry at startup.
It just makes sense to prefill your filter. I've been prefilling for 30 years and now, when someone says," why you doing that? The internet says don't prefill." I can now respond, "The motor oil geek did real tests and proved prefilling to be beneficial!" Thanks!
Just think, there's somebody else in the world looking at the same thing at this very moment!🤔🤫😬🤗😇
Internet nerds only know about cell phones and computers.
I really don't see any reason to NOT fill your oil filter when changing oil. It only makes sense as to why it SHOULD be done. I can't think of any reason at all to NOT fill the filter before installing it, not one that would make any sense at all. So I'm not sure why there is any debate on this subject at all. Maybe someone could enlighten me on the reasoning people are using to claim pre-filling the filter is a bad thing???
@@johngreen6643 I can't figure that one out either.
@@johngreen6643 They say you are putting unfiltered oil in the clean side of the filter. That's the reason given. I think it was just click bait to get more views, & so..... a myth is born!!
The water was interesting. Thanks for putting this to bed! Also, nice shout out to Project Farm!
Yes because the air has water on it and when you do not prefill the filter, that air and that water will be there until the PCV takes out the air
@@josemanuelaviladossantos3705 Agreed. Thinking out loud. If we accept that the water came from the relative humidity of the air in the filter. Does it make any difference HOW the water got out of the air and could it be controlled? A vacuum should force the water to vaporize out , wheras compressing the air would cause condensation. 🤔
@@edwardclark7670 The pump pressure compressed the air condensing the water. Pre-filling displaces the air. Granted, there will always be some air in the system, but pre-filling the filter displaces better than 90% of it
Water may come from extra blow by since rings are not seeing the oil pressure and lubricating sealing effect.
Extra blow by, which contains water, when oil pressure/flow is lost. Good tip!
Well, It looks like our shop will be updating oil change procedures to filling filters as mandatory. We intend to keep cars on the road as long as possible and we appreciate you guys testing this!
Good to hear there are shops that actually care about thing like this. Most don't.
Im an old guy now and Ive been prefilling since I was 10. Didnt have data, just believed in the old guys who taught me back then. I have never missed a prefill, never cheated the bearings of anything I worked on. GREAT VIDEO
Thanks!
Got a 25 year old 5.3l Silverado with 500k km on the original drivetrain that says prefilling the filter doesn't hurt a thing. Just prefill the filter, you're going to put the oil in the engine anyway!
Awesome mention of Project Farm! They aren't as precise but they give a good ballpark idea of what's good or not.
Yep. I always fill it unless it’s at some awkward angle that makes it impossible.
@WalkerSmallEnginePerformace
I put as much as possible into those filters.
@@WalkerSmallEnginePerformance Even then you can usually fill it enough to soak the media.
@@WalkerSmallEnginePerformance even then i put a little in it and roll it around. My theory is every little bit helps and soaking the element has to help some.
@@GT-mn3bx wow i just made that point, i should have read ahead some.
Manufacturers are under extreme pressure to achieve higher fuel efficiency and this is the main reason we have such thin oils as 0w8. Thin oils do save fuel. I will continue to use 5w30 or 0w30 in winter for all of my vehicles. If you get a new car every few years then the thin oils will be fine but I keep my cars as long as possible and 5w30 seems to be the ideal for me. The engines definitely run quieter.
0w30 actually is better at summer too than 5w30, thanks to the higher viscosity index (given that both have the same viscosity at 100C).
No. 5W-30 is better in summer heat. 0W-30 like Mobil 1's AFE formula breaks down much easier than a 5W-30. 0W oils have more polymers that shear quite easily, allowing them to thin out and burn away. The base oil is always more robust than the polymers.
@@Shadows-RC use a GTL based oil like Pennzoil Ultra. Their 0w30 will not break down, and it remains thicker above 100C than an 5w30. Higher VI not only means better cold flow but it remains thicker when hot. There may be exceptions but a 0wX is better on any climate than an 5wX if their 100C viscosity spec is equal.
Except they typically don't have the same viscosity. A 30 weight oil simply means it cleared the 30W bar. It could be a 30.1 or a 39.9 weight. To get an oil down to the 0W side (vs. 5W) they generally have to drag down the top end to the low side or use more viscosity modifiers that cause sheer under load and miles. Look at the HTHS and actual viscosity measurements at temp (see the PDS for the oils) and compare.
@@iamgumbydammit2217 they don't have to if the viscosity index is high enough. Look at the viscosity of the Pennzoil Platinum Euro LX 0w30, that one is an exceptional one.
Really appreciate all the effort that goes into making this great content. I'd also suggest adding chapter markers to the video to help us follow along, especially for longer videos. Thanks you!
Love your videos and content, TMOG. Very informative, unbiased, and educational.
Thank you for making these TH-cam videos for us to enjoy!
Glad you like them!
I have lost 2 engines due to oil dilution which made the engine oil so much thinner and due to OEM large bearing clearances, busted the rod bearings. For my application (hot climate, severe engine usage) , i will continue to use 50 weight oil. Thank you so much Lake and Ben for making the video.
What you didn’t discuss is whether running a thicker oil (10W50) in an older engine that is specced for 5W30 would protect it better against wear.
Yeah, that would have been interesting, but in practice, we know that a thicker oil is an effective way to keep worn engines alive for a bit longer. It won't fix anything, but it sure helps quiet loose clearances, slow down oil consumption, boost low oil pressure, etc.
Originally spec'd, but what are clearances now? Do a UOA with both oils and see what the data says.
Use a 10W like 10W30
@@oneninerniner3427 A 10W-XX is fine if the lowest startup temperatures allow for that, but generally speaking, for keeping a worn engine alive, a thicker HOT viscosity is what may help, not so much the cold viscosity. Even the thinnest oils are way more than thick enough on cold startup.
What an amazing series of tests, I didn't want the video to end!!!
Thanks. I know it was a long one...
Those windage losses are not something that the average person thinks much about but they're clearly significant. Thanks for all the info in your videos!
Not as important running at 10% throttle at 2500 rpm. But it does exist.
most engines have windage trays that reduce it
I have 2010 FJ cruiser. Toyota was recomending 0W20 for those sold in the united states; yet, internationally they were recommending up to 50 wieght. Same exact vehicle all over the world. I split the diffrence, as I don't live in extreme temps, and have stuck with 15w-30. The only explanation I have is they were willing to sacrifice life of the motor for increased fleet fuel efficiency in the States.
Great work, thanks!
I’ve ALWAYS pre-filled a filter. It’s a no brainer!
Happy to help!
i dont pre fill mine ever because funny 90 degree filter placement
I agree about prefilling oil filter…. But with a horizontal oil filter you’re screwed…
Saturating the filter media and filling half way has benefits without spillage.
I have an inverted bare element, so I can't.
But I don't worry too much about it. It's still miniscule wear. But if possible, why not do it.
Cranking the engine with the fuel disabled until it builds oil pressure is an option, but I'm not entirely sure if that's actually much better for the engine since it will be rotating much longer without oil pressure since the oil pump is not efficient at ~200 RPM.
And even if cranking to prefill does reduce bearing wear, I'm not sure the extra battery and starter wear would be a worthwhile trade off for most people since bearings hardly ever wear enough to be a problem for the first few hundred thousand miles while batteries and starters frequently do.
@@averyalexander2303 limited load with no combustion, so nano wear. As far as the paper element filters, again crank the engine over by disabling the injector fuse or ignition fuse. With a push button type ignition, hold gas pedal to the floor at the same time holding the brake pedal and push the ignition button letting the engine spin over for about 3-5 sec. Push ignition button again to stop the engine from cranking. This procedure will fill the oil filter. I have tested this--by removing the oil filter on a horizontal spin -on filter after performing the procedure above, oil drained out of the new filter as much as did the old filter when removing it.
you could pre fill the vertical filter on my Fiat as long as you used the filter with the anti drain back feature. Could at least 2/3 fill it.
As far as the prefilled oil filler argument goes, how cool is it that we got real data and were among the first to know for certain, pre filled wins!
With lower viscosity oils, which makes it especially pertinent for most modern cars which specify thin oil grades.
so why are all newèr cars equiped with non spin on filters you cant prefill if it hurts so much?
Also i work on wheeloaders with 3 oil filters who take 3-4L of oil each, none pre fills them and we have had no failure due to not pre filling.
@@alexstromberg7696 Some engines like Subaru have the flood mode so you can crank them without starting (vertical upside down filter on the top of the engine in a FA-series Subaru). I don't believe Hondas have a flood mode though, so with the horizontal filter on the F-series and K-series I don't really understand how you are supposed to prefill it.
@@alexstromberg7696 I’m not sure “All” cars is true. My Tacoma uses a can that I prefill.
If you watched the video, failure wasn’t mentioned, wear was. Repeated wear isn’t every a good thing if you can avoid it.
Very cool BUT with a N=1 on each test its not possible to draw a conclusion such as they did. We have no idea of the variability of the measurements. they might be +/- 30 which would mean its the same. Depending on the variability they might have to run 3, 6, 10 times. Sorry to burst your bubble guys but its an easy fix...repeat at least 3x to get a handle those stats
Man,I think who ever built that motor with that many dyno pulls is the Goat! Great video as always!
30:50 Pre-filling the filter may not be possible on every engine. All of my diesel engines have a large cartridge filter on top of the engine, instead of a bottom-mounted screw-on filter type like your test engine, meaning that pre-filling oil will only drop back down into the wet sump and potentially overfill the engine. In such cases, having an electric auxiliary oil pump pressurising and circulating the oil before first crank goes a long way to reducing cold-start damage.
I have always ran 10-30 Castrol motor oil, And the engines in my rigs never used oil, unless the engine was worn when I got it,,, Most of the engines I have owned had a side mounted filter,,, so they always went on dry,,, Thank you for your informative work on wear in engines based on oil type and techniques in using it,, :-),
These videos are so informative. Knocking these theories out and showing evidence based proof is awesome. Keep up the great work.
Love these videos. I run a semi, and i feel like this makes a huge difference for the big trucks that are expected to go 750K-1M MILES before an overhaul.
I do have a question though. Could you please do a in depth video on what are the actual problems running a thicker or thinner oil in engines that the manufacturer recommends. Other than oil pressure being higher or lower, is there a tangable difference?
Yes please let us know.
you will probably get worse MPG with a heavier oil its just smarter to go in the middle
I always use a little bit thicker oil than they call for plus pre-fill the filter. They were specifying super thin
oils for gas mileage for one. A slightly thicker oil provides better protection. I was figuring this, but THANK YOU FOR PROVING IT. I'm 69 years old and have been working on cars and maintaining them for decades as an amateur. .
You said: 'A slightly thicker oil provides better protection'
Not true.
If your clearances are small, running a thicker oil means you don't get the flow to the part thus you aren't lubricating at all.
Manufacturers design their engines for specific purposes. They have set diameter galleys, hoses, and clearances for journals. Then you come along and decide 'Nah, I'll make my own mind up'
Well, that's up to you, but saying 'Thicker oil protects better' is nonsense.
@@Hypersonik Manufacturers LIE. They say to use a thinner oil for MPG. You can go SLIGHTLY thicker. You believe the car companies oil change intervals also? Go ahead. listen to that shit , and it WILL cut a lot of life out of the motor. ANOTHER example where they LIE.
hyper reetord
@@coreytran7415 Nice one. All you have to do is tell me why what.
I said was rubbish and then you won't need to show yourself as 4 years old.
So explain to us all why what I said was wrong :)
@Hypersonik
Testing in the video showed thick oil had less wear by about one third of the thin oil
Would love to see this testing on a basic, modern, tight tolerance, daily driver engine which is what many/most of us are trying to get theost out of. Thanks for the great info.
I love that you tip your hat to Project Farm!
Project farm is a joke. They claimed WD-40 is a better penetrant than solvent-based PB Blaster
WD-40 is for drying out ignition components and light lubrication. I blocked their nonsense.
"And we're going to TEST that!" 😂
The water in the oil is coming from the air (atmosphere) that was in the unfilled filter. When that air is compressed rapidly (as the oil fills the system) and then decompresses as the oil pressure drops, a "cloud" forms. Tiny droplets of moisture are basically being extracted from that volume of atmosphere that was in the dry filter when it was installed.
WILD! I didnt see that coming either.
I was about to state the same and then I read the comments. I cant imagine that there is another explanation.
2 take aways:
- pre fill the filter, just in case.
- use the correct viscocity for your bearing clearances.
Thanks for doing the testing Lake. You're doing Gods work by helping people out in the small parts of thier lives.
Forgot to add,
What's the engine is being used for,
long runs= higher viscosity,
errands &mall pavement use= low viscosity
Which god?
@@ding9633 The real one among the fakes ones.
Bearing clearances is a BS excuse. Projectfarms ran 0w20 vs 5w30 in a lubricity test where there is no bearing clearance. The 5w30 had less wear, so if 0w20 was a clearance issue, it should have done better than 5w30.
@@dfloper the real one would be the god that chooses to speak for himself and not solely through the mouths of men - and that god hasn't appeared yet .
Great content. If you get a chance, could you shed some light on the oil catch can? Love the info. Thanks
Sure thing
Definitely
I have noticed increased oil change intervals on my 2018 silverado 5.3 w/a catch can. I currently have 8k on my oil (0w20 costco) and it still has good color on the dipstick. Previously the oil would be dark/black by 20% on the oil monitor in about 5k miles. I'm in a northern cold humid climate.
This is excellent news of oil and application. I've always learned that the hotter the weather the thicker the oil and always pre fill the filter.
This informational video was thoroughly riveting for me, not once did I want to skip, you kept my attention the whole time! Subscribed!
Awesome, thank you!
im so glad this channel is a thing, i had so many questions about oil and stuff that i just couldnt get a solid answer on
Happy to help!
This helps validate my choice of going with 5w30 in my brand new 2024 Mazda Miata Club over the “recommended” 0w20. I preformed an initial oil change at 800 miles from the factory fill and after watching a ton of Lakes videos I am going with Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5w30 in a prefilled Wix filter! I live in North Carolina and my Miata won’t be exposed to very cold weather and feel this oil will serve me well. Thank you for all the great information and amazing content!
Owners manual actually recommends 5w30 for best engine health.
What's wild is in the 2017 Miata owners manual, they recommend 0w20 for the US and Canada, and 5w30 in all other regions. Same story with the BRZ; Canada and US only lists 0w20 as suitable, where the Japanese manual lists 0w20, 5w30, and 5w40, noting that 0w20 will yeild the best fuel economy.
It's obvious that they're choosing emissions and fuel economy over engine longevity.
@SpencerWatches Exactly. My wife's 2013 2.4 Honda (now is my Daughter's) is the same way, factory recommended strictly 0w20 unless nothing else is available. The same engine (2.4L) in other countries, which is identical there and here, depending on the country is approved up to 5w40. Commonly recommended viscosity was 5w30. The only few countries had a 0w20 recommendation, all of the 0w20 countries were C.A.F.E countries.
I searched many engines out of curiosity, using "recommended oil" choice by country on a Castrol site. I live in the deep south US, and the summer morning are often 80 deg+ at dawn, and 100+ daytime summer temps are run-of-the-mill. I run 5w30 in my wife's Mazda cx90 and 5w20 in the Honda. The honda lives a cush life and never driven hard, and the Mazda for that matter. The honda also runs relatively low oil temps, so I'm confident in synthetic 5w20 with its oil temp and bearing journal clearances.
The Mazda is turbo, inherently runs hotter oil temps, so a synthetic 5w30 is my choice in our climate.
@@MightyS-1 Best fuel economy goes hand in hand with more power too though. The 5W30 might be costing 0.5-1hp or something compared to the 0W20. It depends how the car is going to be used (will the MX-5 do track days) and how hot the oil will get (0W8 or 0W16 generally not a problem for Toyota Priuses for instance which will never be driven hard and the oil won't get hot at all), no? It's not unheard of for small block racing engines like the LS in the video (or older Windsors or SBCs) to run 0W20 for qualifying for the extra power and then run a 5W30 for a 1000km race. Conventional wisdom may be to run a 10W50 or 10W60 racing oil in a race motor like that but that's not necessary anymore with modern racing oils, you can have the extra power from the thinner oil and *still* have no appreciable wear when the engine is rebuilt at 3000km.
5w40 Is even Better, w30s are not so good in Summer if you actually run your engine like Is meant to
I would like to see this same test be performed in a modern engine that calls for 0w20.
That would be cool
@@themotoroilgeek Aren't we down to 0w8 now? I'm waiting for 0w1 so I can call it owl oil.
@@bobclarke5913 😂😂
@@bobclarke5913 I'm waiting to see a Negative ten-w-zero (-10w0) weight oil.....
@@dyer2cycle Castor oil lmao
Toyota calls for 0w8 here bit the same engine in australia, they still recommend 0w20
When racing go karts 35 years ago, the only thing that worked was straight weight oil. It was explained to me that to give it a range, you were swapping out actual lubricant for friction modifiers that you really didnt need. I still use multi-weight oil in road going vehicles but I limit the spread. I have a yukon with 324k, a highlander with 308k, two xterras in the mid 200ks, and so on.
Oh, and I now want SO BADLY the same test to be carried in a 1.5L 4cyl modern turbocharged engine if possible! Especially a Toyota/Honda one that are "designed" (due to CAFE idiots) to run on 0w20 or thinner. And to have an even broader comparison, use 3 different viscosities: 0w20, 5w40 and 20w60. I know I'm asking for too much but I hope to see it as your channel keeps growing Lake!
I’m glad I watched this video, real world evidence instead of just theories
Thanks for watching and for sharing.
Unfortunately both of my motorcycles have horizontal filters and my truck has an inverted filter, so pre filling them isn't an option for me 😢
Put some oil in to wet the filter media and swish it around/pour it out of the filter.
I've always pre-filled my oil filters. I figured the less time it takes to build up oil pressure, the better, even if it was only a couple of seconds difference. Now I know why it's a good idea. Thanks for doing these tests! 😊
It sure doesn't hurt anything.
It was the same prefilled or not lol
The first thing I learned as a starting Mechanic was to prefill the oil filter 40 + years ago.
Newer subscriber here, love your fact-based science!!! I have a 2022 GMC with a 3.0 liter that calls for 0w20 oil. I'm not in love with such a thin oil but would like to see what your take is on the common question of running something just a bit heavier than what is spec'd. I know the "warranty safe" answer but also saw a video where the lower end bearing spec for GM 3.0, 5.3, and 6.2 was given. All 3 engines called for a different weight oil but there was overlap/shared tolerances between 3.0/5.3, 5.3/6.2. I'd be happy to lose some in mpg for an oil that gives the engine a longer life. I love science and intelligence. That keeps me from making "gut feeling" changes or "doin what ole grandpappy" always did. Video please:)
Thanks Lake, that was real research science data driven testing! NO Hogwash! I really like your Motor Oil Geek testing channel !
FWIW I'm using 5W-30 instead of 0W-20 in my wife's 2018 Jeep Cherokee after the warranty expired and noticed a definite difference in engine noise. It's a 2.4 Multiair and it's working like it should too. We're in a southern climate, though.
I did the same thing on a high mileage ford modular 5.4 3v engine. Also, a southern climate. Went from 5w-20 to 5w-30
@@impaledface7694
Me too
So am I. In a BMW 2.0 diesel 🤞
I had a 01 Grand Am 2.4l in Phoenix for 12 years. I was using 5w 40 synthetic oil and sold it when moving out of state with 327k miles. Manual called for either 5 or 10 w 30 oil. When some mechanics used 20w 50, the oil pressure sensor blew and started hemorrhaging oil until the oil pressure light came on. Be careful with too thick oil. I chose Mobil European 5w 40 because its specs were almost identical to 10w 30. It took Arizona heat without any problem.
exactly and as you approach 250k you may concider 10w40 if you live in a warm climate.
"I don't really care about speculations or opinions; we're going to let the data show us which one works best."
That is without a doubt the greatest quotes of all time!
I was honestly hoping for a 5w20 vs 10w30 comparison, and hopefully you'll perform that test in the future. :) Regardless, my engine calls for 0w20 and I will never run oil that thin - 5w30 will remain my standard, and this data backs up that choice.
0w20 is just catpiss. 30/40/50 are the real oils for me.
During the winter, if you're seeing 32F, 0W20 or even 0W16 is a good idea, don't believe me? Freeze your favorite oils and do a pour test...Frozen 0W20 flowed like molasses.
Some vehicles have a flood mode so you can pre-fill the filter while its mounted to the filter housing. Very informative video! Thank you!
Those tests done were great for a hi po engine, the problem is that dual overhead cam engines that we drive here on Earth can be damaged if you run 20-50 oil and will void your warranty. Plus 20w 50 oil can cause sludge buildup, excess friction, varnish deposits, problems with oil burning and oil pressure, damage the cat, and even affect your engine life, especially with dual overhead cam engines.
The Hellcat Redeye engine the owner's manual says 0w 40, maybe that's the oil you should test next instead of 20w 50? Chrysler says that using 20w 50 in that engine can damage the engine.
Turbo-charged engines will see turbos destroy themselves using 20w 50 due to the very tight tolerances of the bearings inside the turbos.
mate thats complete BS. Heaps of trucks run 15w40 engine oil with very expensive turbos. zero issues and guess what 15w40 i cold weather is thicker than 20w50 in hot weather... so if what you are saying was true all these engines would have issues in cold weather but they don't because you're wrong, that tight tolerance argument is a myth
Yes it's BS. Some people just repeat garbage they hear and never test.. that's why we just watched a test.
I've learned more about lubrication, oil quality, viscosity, Top Tier gasoline, time span between oil changes and many other valuable info' to maintain my vehicles, since I started listening to Lake Speed's advice, than with any other expert on these issues. Period.
Iron levels nearly tripled with the thinner oil after the Dino runs….. Bit more wear happening. Would it be correct in concluding that a thicker oil would be better in a daily driven, frequent ‘stop-start’ engine. We’re the thinner viscosity would drain off the bearings etc….
You seem to be correct based on the data so far
Love the science based approach on this channel and tribology seems very interesting. Thank you for your service to the car community!
With all the horizontal mounted filters now you can't pre-fill with oil.
If pre-filling is better why do they build horz mounted filters?
Retired HD Mech. since I started in late 60s our service manuals all stated to prime our rebuilds, fill our primary lub. filters, same as fuel systems, done it on each and every change on my vehicles.
I always shake my oil container - smell the oil and pre-fill the oil filter ! Done this for decades ! Same o'l me !
I always prefill the filter before shaking the jug. I shake the jug before pouring into the engine though. The reason being, if by chance something got into the oil where they bottled it, I want it to get filtered out before going to the heads/lifters.
@LeadStarDude I'll remember that. Thanks, man!
Speed says that shaking doesn't remix any settled out additives.
Thought I was the only weirdo that smelled oil, some of it smells good to me
@@jeremymyers5643 its good to know what it should smell like, thats just one way to do it
I did it by getting covered in oil when taking off oil pan before, apparently 2 ish quarts remained below the level of the oil pan bolt and the baffling
I always prefill my filters and I've never heard the argument not to. That few seconds difference to build pressure adds up over an engines life time of oil changes.
The dumbest argument I have heard from a well known TH-cam channel is that pre filling the oil filter contaminates the oil. My reply is if the new engine oil is contaminated by adding it to the filter you might want to change brands. The oil is the same oil you are pouring in the engine to begin with. I have always pre filled my filters and although you cannot completely fill a horizontal mount filter I usually fill the filter close to half and allow a couple of minutes for the paper element to absorb before I install the filter.
So… should I use 5w-30 in my Toyota V6 instead of 0w-20? Great video but now I’m not sure what to do!
You under Warranty? If so, no, in the hotter months try Redline or Shaeffers, they both have over 300 in molyb. If you're off warranty, over 70F I use 0W30 or 10W30 with Marvel Mystery Oil which thins it a bit, in both RDXs that recomment 0W20. Then for winter, back to 0W20. I always use full synthetics, whatever is on sale.
This was one informal video that I sat through the whole video, and wasn't tempted to skip in any way. Subscribed!
Thank you!
When you and Ben get together it is always enlightening.
"aplication dictates chemistry".......thank you once again for giving me peace of mind and hope you`ll keep it going- best wishes from your silent follower...
I believe this video just ended the never ending arguments about thinner & thicker oil + pre fill oil filter
people who believe that prefilling filters will always believe it. (it doesn't matter)
Not really, because that's a race engine. The results might be completely different for a production engine. I bet on that.
@@xXturbo86Xx I agree. try this on modern mass production direction injection engine's...I'd be more surprised if it replicated this video's results.
@@alexstromberg7696 didnt you even watch the vid? there scientific proof prefilling is better.
@@xXturbo86Xx grasping at straws.
Forgot to mention great video one of the best most verbal controlled test i seen.
This test confirms what I was told 30 years ago in my shop classes.
Great video this is the second video I have watched of yours now and I'm enjoying the channel as a true gearhead I can appreciate the knowledge.
So my question comes from because when I was at school, small block Chevys, Chrysler small blocks, Ford small blocks and Chevrolet at Ford were brand new late model engines and 5/30 was a pretty thin oil modern oil, today arguably these engines are dinosaurs and the oil is thick by modern standards so my question is a lot of these newer vehicles require a lower viscosity oil when they are brand new, as they age add fall out of warranty does any harm happen by putting in a thicker oil for example a hemi reqires 5/20 so would any harm happen from putting in thicker oil such as 20/50? That engine too is now somewhat outdated but how about these 0/8 or 0/12 oils can they be replaced with thicker oil.
I only use the Dodge truck engine (the 5.7 hemi) because I'm extremely familiar with it and they are notorious for getting lifter failures and I would think a thicker oil would help prevent these issues just because there is more of a cushion so to speak compared to the more modern watery oils.
Incredible efforts! Shows that it is better to inch up the viscosity....do not go Lower. U guys are the best!
An awesome vid as usual Lake! Thanks to You and Ben for dropping all this USEFUL, ACCURATE science!
Ben is the man! I hope we get to do more with him.
I have believed thinner oils cause more wear and this test seems to prove that. I personally run 5w-30 in my 5w20 motor and it takes it just fine as I can tell. I looked up bearing clearances compared to a 5w-30 motor and saw no difference in the specs.
What about oil jet squirters, galleys, cam caps etc?
BMW S65 engines run 10w60 oil and they lunch bearings.
Stop trying to second guess the manufacturer - they spend MILLIONS on testing and you don't.
@Hypersonik That assumes you know the engineering constraints the manufacturer used to spec the oil. You're assuming that the manufacturers' goal is maximum longevity when it could be something else. The manufacturer could just as easily decide that the extra half mpg from running a thinner oil is worth an increase in wear. That doesn't mean the layperson is correct to arbitrarily change the specs, but it also doesn't mean the manufacturer has the same priorities as the end customer.
@@jericho86 You said: 'That assumes you know the engineering constraints the manufacturer used to spec the oil.'
PRECISELY! If the manufacturer is telling you to use a certain oil, why would you ignore them? You can speculate about MPG/CO2 etc, but if they really wanted to, they'd specify a range of oils and they'd tell you what works best for economy.
Manufacturers test the oil for hundreds of hours, full power, full load, continuously. They spend $millions on engine tests alone. The lay person does not.
So all the layperson is doing is guessing. Unless you go with the manufacturer.
@Hypersonik I don't trust the manufacturers to have my best interests in mind. If you want to be that naive, that's your business.
@@Hypersonikthey also make millions on engines that only last a hundred thousand miles. And it would cost them millions to use thicker oil that would protect the engine better, but would cost fuel mileage, or create a tiny bit more emissions.
I live in Florida, and if you think that I should put the exact same oil in my car as someone in northern Minnesota does, then you're not thinking very clearly. Just like OE tires are not ideal for any conditions, but they're okay for all conditions. When a car is built, the manufacturer doesn't know if it's going to Florida or Alaska, so they make oil recommendations that will be "OK" in all climates, but ideal in very few climates.
Another amazing content as usual. The only regret is that you spend so much time for a no brainer so called debate, pre-filling or not.
In this vein, I propose the next video to be the hot topic, Engine with oil vs Engine with no oil 🙄🙄 Yeah
I wished you would have spent more time for more in depth information about the differences in oil viscosity and the results in different conditions.
Thank you so much anyway for this valuable information provided!
Stay tuned for the next one…
38 years ago I asked a Pennzoil engineer if the recommended 5-30 was a good idea for my new Olds with the V-6 Buick. Or I was used to 10W-30.
He mentioned that the primary reason for the thinner oil recommended was to help meet fuel economy numbers. His conclusion was either would be ok but since I was living in a warm climate… the 10-30 would be fine and maybe better
Guys I see that you using a blend oil if I remember right that's like 12% synthetic and the rest of the qt is petroleum, I have to ask why didn't you use full synthetic, but I am a fan of you guys and I really trust what you say cuz you guys are the ones that I listen to so thank you very much for the video I hope my response to your video does not offend anybody
Totally agree
Synthetic is used by those that care
And full synthetic specified in most manuals
I have been prefilling oil filters for 30 years and it's just common sense. The extra volume of air in an empty filter has to be displaced for one thing, so that air has to get pushed up through the engine before dissipating around the bearings, so no oil until that happens. Your oiling system is designed to always have oil in the filter, so why wouldn't anyone do that with an oil change? Great video! Love the real info!
Why would engineers design the filter to be upside down then. Surely they knew that it couldn't be "pre-filled"
The Engine Masters got exactly the same results in tests they did recently!!! I'm upgrading the 5W-20 to 5W-30 on my 2023 KIA Sportage, especially down at Puerto Rico, where it's hot & muggy!!!
I wonder how the thicker oil will lubricate the turbo shaft now? Ahh, lets not think about that :)
One thing I like to do with engines if I’m not able to fill the filter up is crack it with no spark so it doesn’t run but can still build pressure and fill the filter. Can you test how much wear you get from that since there’s less pressures?
So now we need a new test. To me this is running the cylinder without the benefit of the cooling and little lube provided by the fuel. Warm engine with NO cylinders firing for a short time maybe doesn't matter.
I built a small block 350 and dropped it in my 79 Nova that originally came with a factory 305 and a manual 4 speed. I religiously used Castrol 20-50 in that car & hot rodded that car for 5 years. I remember the throttle stuck on the Carter AFB one night & I just kept going & shifting through all 4 gears before shutting it down & addressing the problem. After I sold it to a friend he had it torn apart because he figured the way I abused that engine that it would need a rebuild. Upon inspection everything was super clean with nearly no signs of any wear at all. Maybe it was the meticulous attention to my assembly of the engine? Maybe the use of a high volume high pressure oil pump?? (I remember the Mallory oil gauge topping out at about 85psi when it was started in cold weather.) But anyways I believe the thicker oil played a huge role in protecting the internal parts from wear. I don't have any scientific evidence to prove it but I think this little experiment has proven that maybe that was the case indeed! Thanks guys, always enjoy your videos, because you can't really argue with scientific proof. Very cool.
As an engineer, I love data. I also love the fact that you guys did the tests so systematically. The results blew my mind - thank you!
I prefilled my oil filter by putting my car/truck in " flood mode:. Push the accelerator to the floor and crank the starter about 8-10 seconds. It fills the filter doing so. Lift off the accelerator and hit the starter and it starts immediately with full oil pressure.
Thank you for confirming my choice to always run 20w50 in my hot rods
For all those filter fillers, I feel for you when you encounter non-fillable filters! Why are so many filters inverted?
Filter fill forever!
I will gladly die on this hill.
@@WanderingDad might as well its in your hands and the oil cans are there ,why not . I agree.
I'm from Philippines, I've been doing my research for the past few months for my modified engine so that I can figure out what is the best engine oil to use. What viscosity and do i use thick or thin. Been asking the oil suppliers for friction test, heat test and etc. Most of them didn't replied, they are local Filipino brands and some are so called branded. Now because of this I will surely take care of my forst motorcycle because I appreciate the engines and machines so I take care of them like how I take care of myself. Thanks for the expertly crafted test
I'm learning things here!
Regarding the full vs empty filter - there is another option I learned many years ago.
I had one customer with a 320I that insisted the filter be pre-filled because he had read it would reduce the wear. This was his first oil change in my shop and also happens to be the first time he was actually present for his oil changes. Up to this point I was a dry filter guy.
To both of our surprise the engine - refused - to develop any oil pressure even with a moderately increased idle speed. Only after swapping a new dry filter could we get oil pressure. With the dry filter the oil pressure increased to normal in a matter of a couple of seconds.
After some thought and review of the oil system I concluded that the oil pump was draining creating an air lock that could not create enough pressure to force the oil thru the oil soaked filter media which in turn did not allow the pump to develop enough suction to re-prime. On his next oil change I only filled the filter 3/4 full to allow an airspace in the filter and pressure came up as expected. I've seen the same phenomena on other vehicles in the years since. I no longer, completely, fill an oil filter unless I know that particular vehicle's system won't air lock.