This is so interesting. How blessed we are with the perfect sacrifice of Christ in our life, and that we can search and discuss to understand Gods holy word better. Hallelujah.
Dr. Brown or any Armenian....: How does Christ secure the salvation of those who respond in faith when your system allows for one to "lose" that which you claim Christ has accomplished through his atonement? I'll be waiting...
This is my attempt to summarize the debate in the simplest terms. Dr. White believes that if people are in hell and atonement is universal, then the atonement (and Christ's intercession) has failed. That is why Dr. White believes in limited atonement (for the elect alone) because Christ cannot fail in his intercessory work as a high priest. From the Arminian perspective, I believe Dr. Brown would say that the atonement and Christ's intercession do not fail if people are in hell because Christ's intercession has successfully made a way so that "whosoever may come" are now able. The atonement has universal power meaning it is available for all, but its effect is experienced only by those who choose to come. Dr. White believes the high priest offers sacrifice for believing Israel and Dr. Brown believes the high priest offers sacrifice for the entire nation of Israel; that became the sticking point in the debate regarding what the atonement accomplishes and for whom. I hope that helps.
Leviticus 16 :"15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is FOR THE PEOPLE, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat." - NKJV.....IT'S SO EXPLICIT, YET Dr White had to READ INTO the text his Calvinistic theology of limited atonement ! God bless
I am on the journey to find the truth and it is very difficult to find one individual that is right on most subjects. I really enjoy listening to John MacArthur but he is definitely a calvanist
I praise God for James White and His ministry & I have been blessed tremendously by Michael browns homosexual work. I believe after reading allot of your comments in general they are harsh and there is no need for this. As Christians brothers we stand side by side in believe in the atonement in Jesus Christ and we should be sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron as we grow in faith in the love of Christ. I don’t understand how there were comments about how Calvinist do not believe bible passages and all kinds of strange comments. Please listen to this; the only reason why I’m a Calvinist is because that’s what the text of the bible has brought me to believe because John 6, Romans 8, Ephesians 1, 1 Corinthians 1 are in the bible. Rather than fight against them, I simply fall at God’s feet and say your are God and I am not and he you choose my before the foundation of the world; I’ll never understand it, I’ll I can say is… That’s amazing Grace!!! & if you don’t believe Jesus personally choose you but just made it possible for you to join the club then that’s up to you
I used to be a Calvanist, but now I'd say Traditional / Provisionalism. I too claim the text trumps everything, so I affirm that with you. Personally though I view the Calvanists interpretation as one that can only be taught by learning presuppositions to key words rather than taking the words at their common meaning. And given Calvanists views, on God's sovereignty I think they box God in and project Him as less powerful and Glorious than the traditional view. I think Dr. Brown's view is pretty much a traditional view.
1 John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
@@johnnyllooddte3415 He's addressing Christians not unbelievers, context people! do you think John would be calling unbelievers my dear children? he's the atoning sacrifice for all those who he died for " all those believing ones" not everyone who ever lived. WORLD means Kosmos, meaning peoples from all tribes, tongues and nations found throughout the world.
@@sha0071972 Please, revisit the text. Yes, in context, John is writing to Christians/Believers. 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS, and NOT ONLY FOR OURS; the 'our sins, and not only for ours', believers/Christians), for the sins of the whole world. The sins of the whole world are not the Elect but the sinners; the atoning sacrifice was for the elect FIRST, "Our sins and not ONLY for ours"; and secondly, the atonement was for the sinners, "Sins for the whole world."
“He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but for also for the scattered children of Hod, to bring them together and make them one.” (John 11:51-52)
It’s always a shame when someone copts out by saying “I just follow the text”. Both gentlemen here are clearly convinced by certain passages that their position is correct. Both Sola and Tota are important here. I respect these gentlemen for still holding fellowship together in light of their differences.
Reading all the comments of this video is somewhat disappointing, sadly a large portion of theses people just engaging in smack talk, a lot of these people are posting scriptures that have nothing to do with the topic, but yeah it’s good that these 2 can have discussions like this
Man that was an awesome defense to the doctrine of freewill and blood atonement. Such a heart for the Lord you have Dr. Brown. You can see His love radiate out of you. To God be the Glory.
Bro. Brown is totally right. It is refreshing to hear the truth that sets free. What people don't understand is that the penalty for sin as taught in the atonment is to give opportunity for every human being to turn to the Lord in repentance and faith. Any other teaching is serious false doctrine.
That is the opposite of what proper hermeneutics is. You read the OT in light of the NT because the NT is the fulfillment of the OT. Jesus and the NT writers tell us what is meant in the OT. They give us the proper interpretation of the OT texts.
He died for all. On judgement day we will give an account. Christ’s blood is sufficient for me as it is for you. We make decisions every day for insignificant things. Decide for Christ. He will save you. Imagine trying to lecture Jesus regarding His blood not being sufficient for all who call upon Him. Unimaginable.
I disagree with Dr. Brown on forfeiting salvation once born again. If I truly place my faith in Him, He is faithful. I am in Christ and He is me seated in heavenly places sealed by the Holy Spirit, the promise of everlasting life. You have by freewill given yourself to God. In a sense you have now given Him authority to guide you in His ways, unable to fall from grace. He purchased you. You are His. This decision cannot be undone now, unlike under the Old Covenant where you could screw it up and bring on curses. I am betrothed to Jesus. A promise to be married for eternity. Saved!
Romans1013 I wasn’t aware that Bro. Michael believes that you could forfeit your salvation...if that be the case I would most certainly loose my salvation!
If the very elect can be deceived ad Jesus says, then guard yourselves. Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches., Wasn't Jesus addressing born again Christian's?
The only problem I see with the "whole world" idea is that why didn't the atonement cover their unbelief? That would mean Christ didn't die for the sin of unbelief after salvation. That would kinda mean if you're a Christian who backsides to a certain point, salvation can never be applied again because you "bring Christ to an open shame"
But the real question is " how a sinner can believe since he is dead ? Does he have the capability of listening to the voice of God unless the ability is given to him ?
James White seems incapable of grasping that since God knows the future and knew it before He even initiated the creation, nothing is up in the for Him. It's only up in the air for us. We can't know with certainty, but God knows with certainty.
John 3.16 is clear...For God so love the world (cosmos) that whosoever believeth on him shall be saved. The call is to ALL men, but chosen-ness also has a receiving element on the part of the individuals to whom the call is made.
Time-stamps 9:00 - the meaning of “world” in John’s Gospel 9:50 - 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 5:19 10:55 - 11:10 - Romans 11 11:37 - Leviticus 16 12:16 - 2 Peter 2:1, bought with a price 15:00 - James White’s response: all without distinction or all without exception? 16:10 - James White’s explanation of Leviticus 16 17:35 - Does intercession mean that Jesus, as High Priest, is interceding for those under the wrath of God? 24:25 - Hebrews 9:15, White asks, is there a covenant with the damned? 25:08 - Revelation 5 18:27 - Brown’s response 19:12 - Leviticus 16 20:24 - Brown’s take on universalism 23:26 - Predestination 25:45, 26:18 - Who has the covenant? Is the covenant made with all?
Sorry Christ asked us to choose U only doing what he tell u Choose this day whom u will serve Seek ye this day whom u will serve The shepherd ask who will u follow
@@ManlyServant Absolute nonsense Christ word open men heart Why would Christ ask a dead man to choose when he no ability to do so that insults the Character of Christ Look at king Agrippa he trembled when he heard the gospel Man has a choice That why the bible says Faith comes by hearing by the word of God This idea that everyone is death and cannot hear the gospel is rubbish
Dr. Brown's opponent must read Jesus' pray in St. John chapter 17 when He prayed for His disciples. At one point He said....I pray NOT for these only BUT for ALL those who will COME TO ME through their word.
If you read the rest of chapter 17 it says different John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me
The salvation of all who BELIEVE. That's the key here, isn't it? What does it mean to believe? To give lip service and just say so? Or to follow the teachings of Christ in letter and spirit? That is the key, and only God knows men's hearts and minds in that respect.
I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
I also found it interesting that Dr. White tried to broaden the question from "whom did Christ die" to the intent of the atonement, allowing him to import a number of unbiblical paradigms into the discussion.
John 10:11-16 Christian Standard Bible (CSB) 11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand, since he is not the shepherd and doesn’t own the sheep, leaves them[a] and runs away when he sees a wolf coming. The wolf then snatches and scatters them. 13 This happens because he is a hired hand and doesn’t care about the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 But I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen; I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd. Nothing in here says He laid down His life for MY SHEEP. IT actually says THE SHEEP. No mention that unbelievers are goats. We become His sheep thru faith.
A wonderful debate by two godly brothers! This debate came down to the very end for me and White’s pressing the question about intercession. How and why would Christ shed His blood for someone that he does not and never intended to intercede for? The answer is He doesn’t. He died and shed His precious blood to secure eternal life for all those the Father gave him. They are saved and secured to the uttermost. It goes beyond foreknowledge and it goes beyond fallen man’s choice.
I have so many questions! 😂 where to start?🤔 1. If Jesus is the saviour of the world, the word saviour implies that a saviour saves in the past does it not? How can Jesus be the saviour of the world without saving it? People get nervous about the implications, but only because they don’t know in the Greek their are three tenses for save. Their is we have been saved. We are being saved and we shall be saved. We also know in many verses Jesus tasted death for everyone, or in a Timothy it says he is a ransom for all..IN DUE TIME. A ransom is a payment. We are the prisoner. Does a prisoner have anything do to with the decision of being ransomed? No. It’s clear in scripture Jesus is saviour (he past tense saved the world) how? Through purchasing and securing them through his blood. This is a fact whether you believe it or not. If you know about this and believe it, this will change your life. Jesus will be your Lord, and your life will change. Judgement from God reaches the inhabitants of the earth righteousness. Judgement of God will come to all starting with the family of God. We are all on different time tables. We have been saved. We are being saved. And we shall be saved. All in due time.
I absolutely love both of these men and they are both very skilled. Truth is we will all learn the answer too this question eventually. Rather belief is preordained or responded too. We all agree that it is the way to salvation. I do not know if i personally had anything too do with accepting grace. I know when i was a non believer an older gentleman sat me down and gave me the good news. I had heard it before but never really responded. However at this time when the older man gave it too me that was it. I believed it was nothing i had not heard before but all tje doubt was removed from me and i not only knew that God existed but i trusted God that he would be the shephard of my life. Wjen i say instantly i mean instantly. I first felt a great conviction and then instantaneous belief and faith. Just my own personal experience and i imagine others differs. Just want too say thank you too both of these men for all there work the glory too God and God alone.
White's anecdote about the dying elder in his church is a complete contradiction of Calvinism's divine determinism. Whether or not that elder had complete faith in Christ's atonement was irrelevant. Either he was elect or he wasn't. God alone determined whether he made I t or didn't and none of us know if he was granted that (made up Calvinistic term here) 'regenerative faith'. God and God alone knows the truth. A bit of a disconnect don't ya think?
I'm a follower of DrBrown but also a Calvinist. While I do believe in predestination it isn't my central focus. It isn't important for my salvation. I think it is a good thing to have theological debates and to discuss things like this but I've avoided debating this with other Christians because I notice people can become very heated and I don't want to argue over trivial stuff. I notice a Calvinist on my Facebook page posts a lot of mocking and angry stuff. His whole focus in Christianity is arguing his points in proving predestination. If he didn't speak about predestination I have no idea if he'd be Christian at all because I hear nothing else coming from him that has to do with Christianity.
It goes both ways, unfortunately. I, too, am a Calvinist but have immense respect for both these men. Both are very faithful and awesome expositors of the Word. Both are very gracious as well. A lot of Christians can learn a lot from them.
According to Calvinists, "the world" refers to the elect, "you" refers to the elect, "my sheep" refers to the elect, "all men" refers to the elect, "everyone" refers to the elect, "the nations" refers to the elect, "Jew and gentile" refers to the elect
Mr Brown is spot on...question??? Can ALL..Men be Saved...??? YES!!!!!...Will ALL MEN be Saved...???? ...NO!!!... Why???? Jn.3:19-21... choose not to be saves...just bc they are not saved....by choice ...doesn't mean they can't be saved..by choice...!!!!Jer 29:13.... can the unsaved seek God & be saved ????YES!!!...Ezek 33:11 ; 18:23,32
Fascinating stuff. Total respect to Dr. White and Dr. Brown for their exegesis and the manner in which they debate. The issue I keep coming back to is this: Why am I a believer and my wife isn’t? Is it because of some better quality inherent in me that’s lacking in her or is it down to God’s choice? These seem to be the only 2 options as far as I can see.
Alex Hawkins It is because of the freedom of will to choose. You and your wife maybe one in the flesh by virtue of marriage, but each of you may not have the same disposition of spirit and will. God gave men the freedom of will to choose him before they became Christians (Genesis 2:17). That freedom of will was never taken from them after they became his children. As there is no compulsion with God, one can certainly choose to deny or reject his faith if he chooses to. The Spirit only guides believers in this life but he never controls them like robots or automatons against their will. And God will never force anyone into heaven against his will.
Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV) By Grace Through Faith 2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I don’t understand how Jesus could have actually suffered and died, for those who end up in hell!?? What was the point of his death for them exactly?? When he died on that cross...didn’t he die for ALL sins?? So if he took ALL there sins upon that cross.. Than, why are they in hell?? I’m sorry, but I refuse to believe that Jesus actually FAILED to save anyone!!
My biggest take away from this debate and other things I've read from Calvinist (If unconditional election is true), is although they say the bases for our salvation is what Christ did at the cross; The fact of the matter is, in Calvinism, our salvation was already a given, by the choice God made in predestination for the elect. That's what really saved you or condemns you. I mean, the choice was already made 100% by God alone; Before the foundation of the world, before people existed or did anything good or bad. In my opinion that interpretation makes the atonement an academic excercise, because the choice to Save (you and me) was made without gifting faith, without the atoning death and resurrection of the Son. Without appeasing Gods wrath, or having been paid for sin in any way. Well, there was no transgression at that moment either... God ordained Your salvation from eternity past , Yuppi!! - If your salvation was a given by Gods ordination and predestination, then game over!! - Its not like Gods going to change his mind now is He? Sure you might say, yeah but God uses "means". - sure, What "means" did he use to elect you before the foundation of the world? No, I need a coherent, Biblical verse in context, to my objection as an answer. That's my #1 point of contention against Calvinisms "plan" for salvation. Worst part, Calvinist can't see it. I think some don't want to. Although thank God, some have. I pray more do. Fact is, God is most Glorified by His Love and Provision for All people. Not as much by His election of just a few. I pray God continues to give wisdom to clearly understand His word, and may the Lord be glorified in all we say and do. Be blessed.
How about Hebrews 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:28, NASB)
What does "many" mean? I think it means all. Because the Bible says that "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19. Does "many were made sinners" mean that there is a sinless race or does it mean ALL!?
@@Sirach144 friend, interpreting the word many in a symmetrical manner, you go down the path of universalism, for, if many means all in Romans 5:19b, then Christ made righteousness the whole human race.
The apostles were the greatest evangelists of all time. They were all obviously pre‐Augustine who was pre‐Calvin and their late to the party doctrines of divine determinism.
The issue Dr White has is that the majority of modern non-reformed evangelicals do not know where he’s coming from and they will miss a lot of what’s he’s trying to communicate
John 3:16 is used frequently to assert that _pas_ πᾶς means "all people." Lets look at the passage: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever (The literal translation of _pas_ πᾶς is _every_ , which is a contraction of Old English æfre ælc, meaning "each of a group," hence literally" _ever_ (æfre "ever, at any time, always") + _each_ (from _a_ "ever" + gælc "alike") believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
seem like to me that the problem James White is having and seems to keep going around is free will...That Jesus offered His sacrifice for sin to the whole world but those believe are the ones who benefit from it...If you do not receive a free gift but reject it then how can you benefit from it? You cannot but the gift is available to whosoever will believe...So it seems it all comes down again to free will...
the HOLY SPIRIT is the intercessor...show me a SINGLE VERSE thats says.. CHRIST ONLY DIED for the elect..there isnt one.. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL SIN and all the world
@@johnnyllooddte3415 "Therefore he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near unto God through him because he always lives to make intercession for them." Can you see how that is Jesus interceding?
@@SamOwenI Jesus only intercedes for those who are born again! You must go to God the Father, through the Son, ONLY then does He intercede. Paul clearly stated in Ephesians that we were under the wrath of God and once walked like those who dont know Christ. I dont believe Christ is interceding for people who have not even been born yet!
@@markwhite5926 my point, and the point of James White in the video is that the basis for the intercession is his sacrifice on their behalf. Jesus doesn't just plead for believers because they believed, but because he gave his life for everyone who would believe. If he makes the sacrifice for every human being, then he can intercede for every human being. But the sacrifice was for the elect, the specific people whom the Father gave to him and that the Spirit will grant faith and repentance to.
Ezekiel outlines some of the duties of the post-exilic Messiah. "It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, cereal offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offerings, cereal offerings, burnt offerings and peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel...on the first day of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the sanctuary. The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple...you shall do the same on the seventh day of the month for any one who has sinned through error or ignorance; so you shall make atonement for the temple...the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the lan a young bull for a sin offering...(Ezek 45:13-25). "The prince...shall stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate...The burnt offerings that the prince offers to the Lord on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish...(Ezek 46:1-5). Jesus CANNOT be performing the duties of Ezekiel's prince, the providing of animals to be slain for sin offerings to God for the people's sins and his own sins. Why? Jesus is presented in the New Testament as being the sacrifical lamb of God, who's shed blood on the cross washes away sin. Why would he be required to provide beasts' blood to atone for sins when his shed blood already accomplished this? IT MAKES NO SENSE. Ergo, Jesus cannot be the Messiah envisioned by Ezekiel.
Wow, Dr White says that God created some people with the specific intent to send them to an eternal Hell so that he could demonstrate the full range of his attributes. So, the loving, perfect, patient, forgiving Father created millions of people to put them in Hell so he could show that he is just? That is the sickest and most demented thing I have ever heard. No wonder so many people reject God when stuff like this is being vomited on them.
I say that God is a just and merciful judge. The thoughts of men had become evil continually and the whole world was corrupt. The Lord put an end to it before there was no going back for any of them. Once I saw that God gave them a chance to be saved I see that His actions were more mercy than they were judgment. 1 Peter 3:18-20 (NKJV) 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. Hebrews, as well as other places in scripture, teach that men can reach a place where they have went to far and they cannot repent and change. I believe God kept the world from going to that place in Noah's day.
Err... why not let the text speak for itself, the Lord flooded the earth because the thought of men was corrupt (period). A "merciful" judge that does not uphold justice is not a judge at all. The cross is much the symbol of God's hatred toward sin that it is for his love and mercy. It goes both ways. What bothers me the most is that you seem to attach some "I did what I could" twist to God's decision where it doesn't need to. Yes He is merciful, yes He is full of grace BECAUSE HE DECIDED TO not because we somehow become loveable, why is it so hard to apply the same to his judgement, He judges BECAUSE HE IS JUST. Sin is first and foremost an offense to God's character BTW, even the non calvinists are confronted with the same hard question: God created some people whom He knows will end in Hell => what's the point of creating them? Because God knows in advance, according to Arminian theology, what man will choose, that means Christ's death is not what really saves people, it's their decision. At the brink of Hell, what has saved you is your "decision", what has damned another person is her "lack of decision" => Why do you thank Jesus for saving you? Why don't you thank yourself for your great and wise decision?
Calvinist believe that God gives the ability to men to repent for some and not to others? Doesn't God want ALL MEN to repent? Then how can be reconcile these two? Can a calvinist explain this to me thank you
Cesar Ortiz brother you need to read Scriptures carefully. James White addressed this. is it all without exceptions(every single individual) or all without exception? people from every tribe and tongue? . The Context tella you which on it is .
You have to distinguish God's decretive will (what God decrees) from God's will of disposition (what brings God pleasure). God may decree things (some to damnation) even though He does not desire it. The cross of Jesus was a good example, God decreed it even though it really pained Him. Hope this helps?
If you ever took time to really study yet read the Bible and read what Calvin said in his institutes and it makes sense this man is dead dead dead there’s no way he can come and resurrect him self and believe all Calvinism says his man is dead that’s what the Bible says and there’s no way he can come to Jesus unless the father draws him and all this talk about man just make this decision on their own if they’re so good that they can make this righteous decision then why would they even need technology Jesus
@@Solideogloria00 it is you that need to read the many many scriptures,that God says choose,choose life. Jesus pleads with man and Pharsees to turn to him. And why is Jesus sad when he says Jerusalem,you who have stoned the prophets ,how i wish that you would come to me,but YOU were not Willing., why would HE say that ,if he already chose and elect some.Why does God Command ALL Men Everywhere to Repent,if we cannot? Jesus said when i am lifted up i will draw ALL men to me.
Brown is wrong. He piecemeals theology. Theology is a system. He is obviously very intelligent and a good guy but he didn’t prove his case. The Bible says in Job that whatever God desires he accomplishes. So how can it be that God desires that none be lost and people are still lost. Because it is written in the same case as the 10 commandments-these are things the Israelites were supposed to follow but it was impossible that they ever would do it perfectly. If men could follow the law perfectly then there would not be a need for a savior to atone for sins. Pontius Pilate was destined to be a coward. Judas to be a traitor. The whole world refers to those in nations outside of Israel because the first covenant was with Israel alone. A careful reading of 1, 2, 3 Jn clarifies “the world.” John chp 1 says that man is not saved by the will of man but by the will of God. Brown advocates a saved today by your will lost tomorrow by your will. How can Brown say he knows he has security if he states that his security (perseverance) is dependent on his actions not the sovereignty of God’s care?
Poor Dr Brown! Context context context. He’s smart! Smart not have gone in to the meaning of the scriptures he’s quoting. According to Brown, God has set up his own unhappiness. Did God love Moses the same as Pharaoh? No!!
God loved them both. God used Pharaoh's already hard hardheartedness to accomplish his will. It was his choice to go against God. God did not make him an automaton.
Christ died for all the world and that is the reason why he has the Title savior of the World! Sadly those who reject free gift of salvation and forgiveness will not be saved.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. All you have to do is read God’s Holy Word. No debate needed.
@@paul.etedder2439 Sorry Teddy, BOTH have some basis in Scripture. That is why BOTH are so doggedly followed. Calvinism, however, fails completely to grasp the *FREE WILL* all through the Scriptures. In fact, the *P* in *TULIP* is the damning admission that a Calvinist can never know if they are elect, or not. Nor anyone else.
Texas75023 I’m definitely not a Calvinist, but clearly you don’t have proper view on free will? What do you mean by free will? Making a decision with no outside influences? I’m not sure what you mean by free will. Everything in life influences us. We plan to go for a picnic. It begins to rain. We change our mind but only because of the rain. Your will is never truly free.
@@jeffreyandrewwinters3719 Not exactly the way I would say it. Being more precise, I would say that Scripture, taken as a whole, provides the complete message that God wished to explain to us. However, the Bible contains scriptures, which when viewed or considered in a VACUUM *meaning out of context or other scripture* can be used to support some positions of each. Like the 5 blind men describing an elephant. Now, personally, I believe there is far more support for "Free Will" and Redemption offered for all mankind. But there are aspect of Calvinism which clearly exist, such as using the term "The Elect" in some verses. And there are some examples of Men that God specifically USES as a Tool to chastise Israel or accomplish His will, such as King Cyrus. But I do not believe that should be extrapolated as eliminating Free Will. I believe the correct answer is somewhere in between. But I choose to not begin at either end of the spectrum to define what I understand and believe. And I am not prone to overly-simplified definitions unless there is absolutely on point scripture... and then I still consider the implications of related scriptures.
God is so awesome. He looked at the world in its sin and still gave of Himself for all people. The doctrine of unlimited atonement flows naturally from doctrine of the unmatched and unlimited love and compassion of God.
Dennis Schilling except they won’t be in hell. Hades (translated into English as hell) will be cast into the lake of fire. Judgement begins in the house of God and we know Christians will be tested with fire also. Why do you believe this fire for Christians is figurative but the other fire is literal? Do you have any scripture to back that up?
"Gracious invitation" says Dr. Brown. Did Jesus give a "gracious invitation" to these people: John 8:43-45 "Why do ye not understand my speech? Because ye CANNOT hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." Or this: John 10:26-29 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
51:50 Dr Brown wins this debate to me directly from Leviticus 16... No answer on the direct contextual reference in answer to the direct question, and Dr. White, who I greatly admire, has nothing in reply but 'i think'. I know he draws from his knowledge of all of scripture, but Dr. Brown's answer also contains the rest of scripture as well... in direct, prophetic context out of the book of Leviticus. I am not Armenian in theology, but this is challenging...
I am not Armenian, i am on the side of James and fairly familiar with how he argues.. I do so myself (not at his level, of course), but just simply that the argument from Lev 16 is very, very strong in my eyes... Something i never considered...
@@bettyyu4112 Lev 16 reveals a pattern of reality. It was revealed to Israel. Christ is the truth of that pattern, embodied. As the high priest offered atonement for the whole people of Israel, so Christ offered his for the whole world: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" - 1 John 2:1-2
@@LadiesnGentlman These are the direct statements of our Lord Jesus Christ ““I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” John 10:11 NASB1995 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”” John 10:14-18 NASB1995 “You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.” John 15:14-16 NASB1995 “Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”” John 6:29 NASB1995 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”” John 6:37-40 NASB1995 “I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;” John 17:9 NASB1995 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44 NASB1995 “Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” John 17:1-5 NASB1995 Other verses: “So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” Colossians 3:12-13 NASB1995 “Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,” Titus 1:1-3 NASB1995 “Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,” 2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB1995 “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,” 1 Peter 1:1-3 NASB1995 “For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.” 2 Timothy 2:10 NASB1995 “In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;” Romans 11:5-7 NASB1995 “When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48 NASB1995 “For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30 NASB1995 “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” Romans 9:16 NASB1995
Wow, I have never seen a more clear demonstration of what is true and what is not. Dr. Brown continually quoted very specific scriptures that said exactly what he believes and Dr White reasoned everything away that the Bible says very plainly to fit his predetermined mindset. There is no doubt that the Bible says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. The Bible cannot be any more clear. 1 John 2:2 "and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours (believers) only, but also for the whole world."
Why do you understand "ours" to be "believers" (and therefore juxtaposed against "world" to be "unbeliebers")? Grammatically, "ours" could refer to "Jews" (and therefore juxtaposed against "world" to be "non Jews")? The grammar supports both interpretations. You chose the former and not the latter. Just curious as to why. Thanks.
@@timffoster either one would work. Paul said it's not the one who is a Jew by blood but rather one who is circumcised in their heart who is a true Jew so to speak. Of course, that would be saying the same thing. Before the new covenant was revealed we would be talking about Jews and gentiles. If you were a Jew it would be us and them. Once Christ came, that changed to those who are born again believers and those who don't know Christ. It is still us and them or ours and theirs Same concept. Either way you look at it Christ died for the sins of the whole world not just for the Jews or just for the current born-again believers 😁
Five years ago, I saw this debate, I agreed with Michael at that time. However, after I went through the teachings of RC Sproul, I change my mind instead I agree with Dr James Browne. Michael is absolutely right that Jesus Christ shed blood for all mankind. But we have to look at two parts of the human progresses. Part one after Adam and Eve took the bits of the same Apple 🍎 mankind was separated from God due to disobedient resulted in knowing good and evil. Hence living sins and death without hope. God was quite justify to wipe human race from the surface of the Earth then which He did not. Because of our sinful nature we were like cockroaches delighting to stay in darkness rather than in the light! It was our strongest inclination to choose our heart desires 100% as a human beings before Christ died on the cross. Therefore, even the grace of God is freely available to us, unbelievers would still unable to choose God. To be fair, if we can rely on our own effort to gain salvation, God would have no problem with it. However, it is impossible as we all know. 😭😭😭 in this aspect even if Christ, die for all mankind still mankind would not with carnal spirit in us choose Him. Just like the cockroaches hate light 💡🙂🙂🙂. Part 2, after Jesus was crucified and shed blood for all our sins, the believers of Christ Jesus being promised the impartation of the Holy Spirit of God into our spirit, hence we are being born again to receive Christ n gain salvation. That is how predestinations come in. Unless the Father is to Christ, we are Doomed to kingdom comes😰😰😰 God is sovereign, as to how He is going to do that is His business. My faith is in the Gospel n God ‘words’ my thought is higher than your thought so is my way higher than your way’ Amen
Calvanism is like roach poison..99% smells good for theological food but once you consume it like you did with rc sproul it only takes 1% to poison the brain. Think about this in reference to your comment about cockroaches hating light. Cockroaches( insects) cant love or hate the light because thier deeds are evil. Humans have the moral response-ability to suppress the truth or recieve the truth and that determines who God grants repentance. See romans1 18-32, john 3 18-21, 2 thessalonians 2 10-13....im not here to argue but to help you... ive listened to rc sproul for 15 years he was indoctrinated by reformers before him.
Never in scripture does it say anyone is predestined to believe ( justification ) in CHRIST...No one was elect to believe before the foundation of the world to believe but those who do believe are predestined to the adoption to wit the redemption of the body..The only ones who are predestined are those who are in HIM , in CHRIST and the only way to be in HIM , in CHRIST , is to believe and one can't do that before they're at an age to understand..
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 God bless too. It’s God’s sovereign will which prevails over human choice. Salvation is the work of God. “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.” John 6:37 ““I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”” John 10:14-18 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”” John 10:27-30
@@bettyyu4112 you've misreprented everyone of those passages as you have them built around a gnostic doctrine with THE NAME OF OUR SAVIOR attached to it my friend . When you say GOD'S will overrides human free will , it's so insulting to Christians because you say it like we don't believe it just because we reject calvinism . Christians reject calvinism because it blasphemes CHRIST when applied to passages like Mark 16 : 15 when CHRIST is speaking , with its doctrine of election or predestination . In this passage CHRIST has told HIS apostles to go preach the gospel ( offer salvation ) to EVERY CREATURE IN THE WHOLE WORLD and here we see calvinism portrays CHRIST as a lying hypocrite because their doctrine of election has CHRIST telling HIS apostles " go tell that person that I died for him even though I didn't and and if he believes in ME I 'LL save him but I won't save him I'll just make him think he's saved ( evanscent grace ) but send him to hell anyway and I harm my creation like this for my glory like the augustinian calvinist say . " After studying Islam to help me evangelize Muslims more effectively I find that the distinctives of calvinist theology are the same as Islam's theology and allah is described in calvinism not GOD . Then to my further disappointment I find that calvinism derives from augustinianism which has the same distinctives as mannicheanism gnosticism brought into the church by augustine of hippo and its distinctives are those of Islam as well . So , I search further and find out that an Iranian gnostic teacher named Manni was who had influenced augustine as augustine was a mannichean gnostic for 15 years before he came to the catholic church bringing his gnostic ideas with him . Manni come to find out had influenced Islam and Christianity with his predeterministic ideas of theology as well as Islam and gnosticism and the after effect is calvinism in the church of today sadly . I plead with you to flee from calvinism sister because it distorts the gospel of CHRIST as it claims that CHRIST didn't die for everyone like the Bible says HE did from one end of scripture to the other . Please objectively research these things sister and if you do you will see that I'm telling the truth . James White is very dishonest about church history if he knows it like he claims he does because mannichean gnostic used the exact same proof text as clavinists do when debating un the church , the very same ones you just replied with my friend . When I found this out about the proof text it made chills go down my neck and arms . I've witnessed James White outright lie about what the early church taught before augustine in the 5th century as well , not that it affect my theology because I study nothing but biblical scripture and have for over 43 years and never once did I see calvinism in its pages . When I was first introduced to calvinism mark 16 : 15 popped into my mind and I thought how can they reconcile their doctrine of election and predestination with what CHRIST is saying in this passage because one of them isn't correct and of course I knew it wasn't CHRIST WHO wasn't correct . Once again I plead with you to leave calvinism because it's blasphemy against our SAVIOR . May GOD continue to bless n keep you my friend .
One could say this was a tit for tat UNTIL JW made the case about intercession at the end. Listening to MB dance around the fact that those in Hell are a lost cause because it’s too late for them was interesting. I am extremely thankful for God’s grace expressed to me when He knocked me from my horse and removed the scales from my eyes. Thank you, Lord. ❤
@@coryalbright9798 yes so that his wrath can be displayed. We were made for Gods glory. There are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and people of mercy both who were predestined before the foundation of the world.
@@coryalbright9798 “What if God, although **willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known** , endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?” Romans 9:22 God’s purpose in all of creation is to demonstrate the fullness of His nature and character. His holiness, mercy, grace, anger, justice, and wrath. The Word is clear: He decided, before ever creating a thing, which vessels (people) would be destroyed and which would be saved. God actively hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that He would be glorified in the destruction of Egypt’s false gods (Pharaoh being one himself). I can already guess the objection: “That’s not fair.” It was the same objection I had for years until I realized that Paul anticipated my objection and already answered it: “What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it **does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy** . For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then **He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires** .” Romans 9:14-18 I had to finally be intellectually consistent and admit that I didn’t really believe that. I made excuses my entire Christian life for what is clearly taught in Scripture because I felt like I had to “defend God”. Submitting to the Word and it’s teaching of the sovereignty of God over all things (even salvation, Eph. 1:11) was one of the most humiliating and painful things to do. But anything that is painful and humiliating to the flesh is most likely of the Spirit. Hope this helps explain our position a bit.
Regeneration just means "born again" so Dr. White just said that regeneration comes before faith. All throughout scripture states that you are regenerate after placing your trust or faith in Christ Jesus. How can one be born again without first placing there faith in Christ. If they are already born again then there is no need for Christ or faith in christ.
Speaking of old testament Israel Hebrews 4 2 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
So calvinists don't believe Christ died for whomsoever will? I have a few questions about calvinists and the so-called arminians. Of the two groups, which one is more obsessed with arguing over this issue? Do believers generally divide fellowship over this issue? Is dividing fellowship over this issue a sin?
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the WORLD may BELIEVE that you have sent me. - John 17:21
unclanrhino, yes Jesus did want unity for His followers, however, Jesus also wants “unity,” “righteousness,” “reconciliation,” and “salvation” for “all things,” “all men,” and “the world.” 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to JUSTIFICATION and LIFE for ALL MEN. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:18-19 as a plan for the fullness of time, to UNITE ALL THINGS IN HIM, things in heaven and things on earth. - Ephesians 1:10 and through him to RECONCILE TO HIMSELF ALL THINGS, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. - Colossians 1:20 When ALL THINGS are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be ALL IN ALL. - 1 Corinthians 15:28 For God did not send his Son into the WORLD to condemn the world, but in order that the WORLD MIGHT BE SAVED through him. - John 3:17 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD! - John 1:29
@@coreyfriend1 Amen! We agree that Jesus' genuine desire was for the salvation of the whole world. The Calvinist often uses Christ's prayer in John 17 as proof of an predetermined elect; that Jesus' heart is not set on all men's salvation. So I was merely stating that the prayer in John 17 is for a specific thing that Jesus only wanted for his followers (unity). And you were right to point out that the goal of this prayer is for the world to believe! That's often overlooked by the Calvinist
Michael. Question does God do the believing for you or do you believe in God by your own accord? If you answer the former you believe in a Divine Puppet Master and prove that Calvinism is based of faulty logic and if you believe in the latter welcome to the Synergism Club?
The bible says you were dead in your sins (Eph 1). The bible says he who is in the flesh cannot please God (Rom 8). Jesus says he who sins is a slave to sin. Jesus says no one can come to him (believe) unless the Father who sent Jesus draws him (John 6). The Bible says the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those whom God has called, it is the power of God (1 Corin) . The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit (1 Corin 2). These verses off the top of my head (and there are many more) that teach not only the UNWILLINGNESS of man to believe but the INABILITY of man to believe on his own. A supernatural power is needed to change man's heart from one oriented towards the flesh to one oriented towards God, only that heart in faith can please God. (Can the ethiopian change the color of his skin, or the leopard change his spots? Can these dry bones put flesh and life on themselves? Can the unbeliever remove his own heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh? Of course not. Do sheep choose the shepherd or does the shepherd choose the sheep? But we are God's sheep. Do children adopt their parents or do parents choose which child to adopt? But we are adopted children of God and heirs with Christ. These are all things only God has the power to do. We by ourselves are unable.)
Ok, good question. I was trying to show you biblical evidence that no one can believe on their own without God's help. Regeneration by the Spirit precedes faith. It must, because as I've shown, faith in God is spiritual, and is foolishness to everyone without the help of the Spirit. So the answer to your question is we cannot believe in God of our OWN will, our will must be changed BY GOD first so we can believe. The biblical examples (as I've listed already) are leopards changing their spots, hearts of stone replaced with hearts of flesh, spiritually dead becoming spiritually alive, bones becoming alive with flesh, etc. These things require an external, spiritual cause, and that can only be God. I know I didn't use either of your answers a) or b), but I don't think they were sufficient to properly answer. Does that help?
Jesus washed the feet of all His disciples including Judas. Yet Judas did not become clean Jn 13^10. The sacrifice of the passover lamb was available, yet man had to respond by applying the blood to their doors. The brazen serpent was available in the wilderness, yet those bitten had to respond by looking to it. We have to obey our Passover Lamb, looking to Jesus in faith.
Dr. Brown states twice that the word world means all humanity. At 8:30 he makes the claim that text after text shows that Jesus died for the sins of every human being. The first text he cites is John 3:16. Then he states "explicitly" that the term world cannot mean the elect, (so therefore it must mean something else) and then by 9:30 he defines it as all humanity. Then when people call him on it using other citations (both in Part 1 and Part 2 of the debate) from John's gospel and letters, he only emphasizes it doesn't mean the elect. I don't know if Dr. Brown intended this. My hope is he didn't. But this is a trick often used by debaters to "prove" their point by offering a false dichotomy, then never positively defending their view. They only knock down the straw man on the other side, and the audience is left thinking that since the other side can't be true, then the other part of the dichotomy must be true. But it starts with a false dichotomy. The word world doesn't always have to mean either all the elect (which Limited Atonement people do not say), or all humanity. The word itself is kosmos, which means order. There are several different applications of the word translated into world in our English bibles. So to present it as one or the other is regrettable. John 3:19 gives an entirely different understanding of the word world from "all humanity" even separating "people" from the created order. "Light has come into the WORLD, and PEOPLE loved the darkness rather than light"
James White contradicted Michael Brown on Leviticus 16 saying that the atonement in the Old Testament was not for the whole nation but for those who drew near. He explained his position by referring to Hebrews 7. But when I checked Leviticus 16, this is what I found on v. 16-17: "16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel."
Indeed, not the whole world, but the people of Israel, the people of the covenant. That's not primarily about a people in a particular location ("draw near" spatially), but a people who are part of a covenant. Remember, the focus of these texts, if you read them you will see, is Christ's ability to redeem a specific people based on the acceptability of his sacrifice before the Father and his eternal life having made the sacrifice, not the ability of man to avail himself of the work of Christ and therefore control its power.
how about all the other times you heard but did not accept? When God opens the eyes of a sinner, then and only then can he accept. Soli Deo Gloria^
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Christ died for every single human that is lost, the gift is free but will you receive it? Many have rejected Him but the offer is for every one: John 3:16 "whosoever"
FACTvsEVOLUTION we have to take into account the clear reading to anyone who reads it, not always some deeper aspects. He preached openly, not with His message hard to discern apart from scholars.
to the one in whom Christ died, if he never heared the gospel are the name of Jesus, how then can he be saved by the Death of Christ who paid for his sin? does he go to hell cause God paid for his sin, but was not able to get the gospel to him before he died? does he suffer in hell for sins that Jesus paid for? was not God great enough to get the gospel to every one before they die? that is a question that Brown cannot answer. I have been through this a hundred times, I have been to seminary the atonement is limted, the question is who limit it? man are God.
If one studies the subsistence of the God-man, IMHO, it aids the student to understand Dr White's point concerning the link of high priest and intercession in regards to Christ dying for "My sheep [that] hear My voice." Dr Brown points that it is faith that causes the effect of salvation. Dr White rebuts that saying that faith is a gift and a result of already being regenerated which in turn requires the blood of Christ being applied. Jn 3 states that the sinner cannot even see the kingdom unless he is first regenerated, i.e. born from above. If God was able to give the Mediator a covenant subsistence endless ages before He was born as being the God-man, how much more could He then declare a covenant subsistence of the elect in the God-man's cross work? I'm not a big fan of debates because there is so MUCH underlying, foundational theology that goes unnoticed and/or unexplained to 99% of the general audience. I'd much rather read a full book where each position is demonstratively presented from which there would be a fuller criterion to adjudicate. Dr. Brown brings into the discussion so many of the buttressing issues that the main point of debate is obfuscated. I like the fact that Dr White keeps bringing the debate to the primary point at hand.
James White doesn’t understand the atonement. It’s that simple. James seems to think that the atonement (bearing the punishment reserved for sin, which is death), has to mean everyone is saved (straw man hoisted by Calvinists), or its only for the elect from the foundation of the world (Calvinistic position). Let’s explain the atonement. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 KJV [18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. From 2 Corinthians, it’s clear that 1) god has reconciled the world to himself, 2) he has reconciled the world to himself via Jesus Christ (accomplished work in the cross), 3) god has committed the word of reconciliation to the apostles and given the apostles the ministry of reconciliation, and 4)conclusion, the atonement is Jesus becoming sin while he has no sin, and bearing the punishment of sin (death) when he did not deserve to die, thus, Jesus has reconciled man back to god. He has put all men, collectively, back in good terms with the father. Reconciliation does not equal “saved” though. Let’s continue. Colossians 1:20-23 KJV [20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. [21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Reconciliation is the means in which mankind is put back on good terms with god. Before Jesus shed blood, there was no means for us to be presented holy/blameless before god. This is why the faithful who died in the OT, were in captivity in Abraham’s bosom. The yearly sacrifices of the blood of goats/bulls/etc in the Old Testament, were performed to hold over until eventually the blood of Jesus was shed. They were awaiting the accomplished work of Christ, such that they could be presented as blameless and holy before god. This is why Jesus went to lead captivity captive. So, reconciliation is Jesus accomplished work, which does away with the the age of the law (condemnation only), and transitions ALL OF MANKIND to the age of grace (salvation by faith unto obedience). The scripture say god has reconciled the world to himself, and that reconciliation is via Jesus Christ. This is the atonement for all men. And read verses 22 and 23. We are reconciled to be presented holy and blameless, but the condition is “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven” The atonement is for all, as it’s Jesus accomplished work, which reconciled all men to god. That reconciliation is the son bearing the punishment from the father. The reconciliation allows all men to be presented holy and blameless before god, but man must submits in faith and endures as we are commanded, and at the end he can be presented as holy and blameless before god. Hopefully I have made it clear enough. The atonement is for all mankind, which refuted Calvinism.
I'm still waiting for a calvinist to say "I am NOT one of the elect, but I still agree with calvinism and love God for choosing me for eternal torment to show everyone His perfect justice!" That will be a calvinist I would respect.
Where do you get that Calvinists think Satan is God's puppet, or that any of us are puppets? We are all moral agents, making choices that flow from the desires of our hearts. I'm a Calvinist because I believe the Bible teaches and holds 2 truths: Man is responsible and God is sovereign, both over salvation and over events. We are not puppets. We are fully responsible and will have to answer for the choices we make. The selling of Joseph into slavery, the lying about it, etc. was all called authentically evil by Joseph. And yet he says: "God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant on earth, and to keep alive for you many survivors. So it was not you who sent me here, but God." (Gen 45) We are morally responsible and yet God is sovereign: "For we have been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." (Eph 1:11.) Yes, God is sovereign. His plans, his purposes, his counsel stands; He doesn't just frustrate the plans of 1 person, but of entire nations, millions of so-called free creatures. God runs the show. The psalmist says: "The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples. The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations." (Psalm 33) What of this are you having a hard time with so I can try to explain it?
Thanks, but no thanks. As soon as I heard about calvinism (and james white) I was staunchly repelled by it. But around 27 years old I really studied the entire new testament and my heart was changed to see the amazing revelation that I would simply not have sought God on my own. I'm so impressed with how the doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty is like the key that makes sense of the old testament and the new and makes a single, sweeping, unified story of untold majesty. Were you in a reformed church? What I would give for that privilege! How can you read the book of John and see the glorious revelations Jesus makes about the unity of purpose of the Father and the Son to powerfully save God's people and keep them 100% eternally secure, and turn away from that?
Kate, Dr. Flowers has the most awful scripture twisting "interpretation" on Romans 9 I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. And I cannot believe that anyone who claims to have tasted and known the simple, straightforward, and sweet truth contained therein would trade that for the rubbish that Flowers calls exegesis. Now after what you wrote, I am very doubtful that you really were a genuine Calvinist, or if you were, you were a very uninformed one. How can anyone who has the slightest knowledge of Reformed teaching say that Jesus never taught anything like the doctrines of grace and read Jesus amazing words in John 6, John 17, etc, etc. "No man can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day." It's just mind boggling. How can that person make the statement that "Jesus condemned billions of souls to hell." As if they weren't headed there already and wanted nothing to do submitting to the Lordship of Christ because the gospel is "foolishness to them". I could go on... maybe you could interact a bit with what I've said here already, if you want?
James White firmly believes God will accomplish ALL His desire. (Isa46:10) Michael Brown firmly believes God desires ALL to be saved. (1Tim2:4) Both are true.
corey david and Jesus was a ransom for all to be testified IN DUE TIME. 1. God accomplished all his desires 2. God desires all to be saved 3. All will be saved in due time.
@@55dengen I agree. Col 1:15-20 along with Rom 5:15-21 seem to make this explicit. God is the "Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1Tim 4:10).
Corey Friend No thats contrary to what scripture tells us. John. 3:17-19 sums it all up on how salvation works 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Through Jesus we are saved if we have faith in him, those who dont beleive REMAIN condemned for rejecting the light that came into the world, loving the darkness instead of the light Mathew 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life ETERNAL LIFE ETERNAL PUNISHMENT 2 roads not 1 according to Matthew 7:13 Which one are you on??? Dont have to answer, let the scripture speak to you Galations 1:8 Theres only one true gospel. Anyone who preaches another is anathema
This is so interesting. How blessed we are with the perfect sacrifice of Christ in our life, and that we can search and discuss to understand Gods holy word better. Hallelujah.
Thank you Dr Brown!!
Beautiful debate. Thank you Dr. Brown. Thank you Dr. White. Praise God.
Dr. Brown or any Armenian....: How does Christ secure the salvation of those who respond in faith when your system allows for one to "lose" that which you claim Christ has accomplished through his atonement? I'll be waiting...
This is my attempt to summarize the debate in the simplest terms. Dr. White believes that if people are in hell and atonement is universal, then the atonement (and Christ's intercession) has failed. That is why Dr. White believes in limited atonement (for the elect alone) because Christ cannot fail in his intercessory work as a high priest. From the Arminian perspective, I believe Dr. Brown would say that the atonement and Christ's intercession do not fail if people are in hell because Christ's intercession has successfully made a way so that "whosoever may come" are now able. The atonement has universal power meaning it is available for all, but its effect is experienced only by those who choose to come.
Dr. White believes the high priest offers sacrifice for believing Israel and Dr. Brown believes the high priest offers sacrifice for the entire nation of Israel; that became the sticking point in the debate regarding what the atonement accomplishes and for whom.
I hope that helps.
Leviticus 16 :"15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is FOR THE PEOPLE, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat." - NKJV.....IT'S SO EXPLICIT, YET Dr White had to READ INTO the text his Calvinistic theology of limited atonement !
God bless
Great summary, Khalil!
@@anthonytan7134 way to read your semi-pelagian theology into the text!
@@williamnathanael412 Thank you. Glad it was helpful. There was so much in this debate it took awhile for me to find the thread.
I'm a young believer and I'll take scripture over philosophy any day the Word is the final authority
So where do you stand now
I am on the journey to find the truth and it is very difficult to find one individual that is right on most subjects. I really enjoy listening to John MacArthur but he is definitely a calvanist
@@freemind9721 check out beyond the fundamentals TH-cam
th-cam.com/video/JRSSDqLhY8k/w-d-xo.html
@@freemind9721 th-cam.com/video/JRSSDqLhY8k/w-d-xo.html
Let that be a lesson: even the most scholarly study of the original manuscripts we have is not comparable to discernment by the Holy Spirit.
I praise God for James White and His ministry & I have been blessed tremendously by Michael browns homosexual work. I believe after reading allot of your comments in general they are harsh and there is no need for this. As Christians brothers we stand side by side in believe in the atonement in Jesus Christ and we should be sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron as we grow in faith in the love of Christ. I don’t understand how there were comments about how Calvinist do not believe bible passages and all kinds of strange comments. Please listen to this; the only reason why I’m a Calvinist is because that’s what the text of the bible has brought me to believe because John 6, Romans 8, Ephesians 1, 1 Corinthians 1 are in the bible. Rather than fight against them, I simply fall at God’s feet and say your are God and I am not and he you choose my before the foundation of the world; I’ll never understand it, I’ll I can say is… That’s amazing Grace!!! & if you don’t believe Jesus personally choose you but just made it possible for you to join the club then that’s up to you
I used to be a Calvanist, but now I'd say Traditional / Provisionalism. I too claim the text trumps everything, so I affirm that with you. Personally though I view the Calvanists interpretation as one that can only be taught by learning presuppositions to key words rather than taking the words at their common meaning. And given Calvanists views, on God's sovereignty I think they box God in and project Him as less powerful and Glorious than the traditional view. I think Dr. Brown's view is pretty much a traditional view.
Justin Fravel Amen!!
Well said :)
@@TheRedrusso What a horrible filthy thing to say!! Shame on you!!
Justin
I know this is long after your post of 5 years ago. Are you still leaning towards Calvinism?
@@SATexan 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000999
1 John 2:1-2: "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."
amen
@@johnnyllooddte3415 He's addressing Christians not unbelievers, context people! do you think John would be calling unbelievers my dear children? he's the atoning sacrifice for all those who he died for " all those believing ones" not everyone who ever lived. WORLD means Kosmos, meaning peoples from all tribes, tongues and nations found throughout the world.
@@sha0071972 Please, revisit the text. Yes, in context, John is writing to Christians/Believers.
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS, and NOT ONLY FOR OURS; the 'our sins, and not only for ours', believers/Christians), for the sins of the whole world.
The sins of the whole world are not the Elect but the sinners; the atoning sacrifice was for the elect FIRST, "Our sins and not ONLY for ours"; and secondly, the atonement was for the sinners, "Sins for the whole world."
Did JESUS die for hitler?
“He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, and not only for that nation but for also for the scattered children of Hod, to bring them together and make them one.” (John 11:51-52)
It’s always a shame when someone copts out by saying “I just follow the text”. Both gentlemen here are clearly convinced by certain passages that their position is correct. Both Sola and Tota are important here. I respect these gentlemen for still holding fellowship together in light of their differences.
Tyler what is your position?
Reading all the comments of this video is somewhat disappointing, sadly a large portion of theses people just engaging in smack talk, a lot of these people are posting scriptures that have nothing to do with the topic, but yeah it’s good that these 2 can have discussions like this
this is a conversation that was pre-ordained since the foundation of the world.😜🤪😂
Indeed, however one is a FALSE Teacher...and one is NOT!
@@cassandragarcia5548 Please elaborate
Thank you for posting
I’m so glad this is an in house discussion, and that believers can have different opinions on this and still fellowship with one another.
Man that was an awesome defense to the doctrine of freewill and blood atonement. Such a heart for the Lord you have Dr. Brown. You can see His love radiate out of you. To God be the Glory.
Jonah 2:9 : Salvation is of the LORD.
James White is totally destroyed the hypothetical atonement of Arminianism! Well done!!
Bro. Brown is totally right. It is refreshing to hear the truth that sets free. What people don't understand is that the penalty for sin as taught in the atonment is to give opportunity for every human being to turn to the Lord in repentance and faith. Any other teaching is serious false doctrine.
Dr. Brown is spot on. Many people read the NT back into the OT, when it should be the other way around
That is the opposite of what proper hermeneutics is. You read the OT in light of the NT because the NT is the fulfillment of the OT. Jesus and the NT writers tell us what is meant in the OT. They give us the proper interpretation of the OT texts.
Michael Brown and Yahushua rock!
I'm disappointed James White is not wearing a bow tie.
Mikez lol
God made a boat of salvation in Jesus. That boat is big enough for everyone on earth. And it’s each one’s own decision whether to board.
He died for all. On judgement day we will give an account. Christ’s blood is sufficient for me as it is for you. We make decisions every day for insignificant things. Decide for Christ. He will save you. Imagine trying to lecture Jesus regarding His blood not being sufficient for all who call upon Him. Unimaginable.
I have the utmost respect for both of these men. Truly men of God. Check out both of their works. I have and have been greatly blessed by them
I think that it is rather obvious who is taking the scriptures at face value and who is forcing them to fit into his own theological system.
..?
I disagree with Dr. Brown on forfeiting salvation once born again. If I truly place my faith in Him, He is faithful. I am in Christ and He is me seated in heavenly places sealed by the Holy Spirit, the promise of everlasting life. You have by freewill given yourself to God. In a sense you have now given Him authority to guide you in His ways, unable to fall from grace.
He purchased you. You are His. This decision cannot be undone now, unlike under the Old Covenant where you could screw it up and bring on curses.
I am betrothed to Jesus. A promise to be married for eternity. Saved!
Romans1013 I wasn’t aware that Bro. Michael believes that you could forfeit your salvation...if that be the case I would most certainly loose my salvation!
If the very elect can be deceived ad Jesus says, then guard yourselves.
Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches.,
Wasn't Jesus addressing born again Christian's?
The only problem I see with the "whole world" idea is that why didn't the atonement cover their unbelief? That would mean Christ didn't die for the sin of unbelief after salvation. That would kinda mean if you're a Christian who backsides to a certain point, salvation can never be applied again because you "bring Christ to an open shame"
In my opinion Dr Brown makes more sense
But the real question is " how a sinner can believe since he is dead ? Does he have the capability of listening to the voice of God unless the ability is given to him ?
Sonny blaise
Yes. What is your understanding of what is meant by "dead" in Eph 2?
Are there several possibilities?
Sonny blaise
Adam, Cain, and Saul did.
Sonny blaise the same as a nuslim believing in allah.
These guys are brilliant
Dr. Brown won in his opening statement ( even though that was not his intent or Dr. White's intent.)
I totally agree!
James White is more biblical on this topic
Paul.E Tedder did you watch the same debate lol who used Bible in their statements
@@paul.etedder2439 only through a calvinist paradigm.. The actual meaning of the text has nothing to do with what white is pushing..
James White seems incapable of grasping that since God knows the future and knew it before He even initiated the creation, nothing is up in the for Him. It's only up in the air for us. We can't know with certainty, but God knows with certainty.
John 3.16 is clear...For God so love the world (cosmos) that whosoever believeth on him shall be saved. The call is to ALL men, but chosen-ness also has a receiving element on the part of the individuals to whom the call is made.
Time-stamps
9:00 - the meaning of “world” in John’s Gospel
9:50 - 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 5:19
10:55 -
11:10 - Romans 11
11:37 - Leviticus 16
12:16 - 2 Peter 2:1, bought with a price
15:00 - James White’s response: all without distinction or all without exception?
16:10 - James White’s explanation of Leviticus 16
17:35 - Does intercession mean that Jesus, as High Priest, is interceding for those under the wrath of God?
24:25 - Hebrews 9:15, White asks, is there a covenant with the damned?
25:08 - Revelation 5
18:27 - Brown’s response
19:12 - Leviticus 16
20:24 - Brown’s take on universalism
23:26 - Predestination
25:45, 26:18 - Who has the covenant? Is the covenant made with all?
James a big Amen!
Arminian sheep are the only sheep in the world to choose their own shepherd. Amazin!
Sorry Christ asked us to choose U only doing what he tell u Choose this day whom u will serve Seek ye this day whom u will serve The shepherd ask who will u follow
@@colinlennox1043 no sheep is able to perceive and understand
@@ManlyServant Absolute nonsense Christ word open men heart Why would Christ ask a dead man to choose when he no ability to do so that insults the Character of Christ Look at king Agrippa he trembled when he heard the gospel Man has a choice That why the bible says Faith comes by hearing by the word of God This idea that everyone is death and cannot hear the gospel is rubbish
Dr. Brown's opponent must read Jesus' pray in St. John chapter 17 when He prayed for His disciples.
At one point He said....I pray NOT for these only BUT for ALL those who will COME TO ME through their word.
If you read the rest of chapter 17 it says different John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who [j]will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me
The salvation of all who BELIEVE. That's the key here, isn't it? What does it mean to believe? To give lip service and just say so? Or to follow the teachings of Christ in letter and spirit? That is the key, and only God knows men's hearts and minds in that respect.
I Tim 4:10 It is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
I also found it interesting that Dr. White tried to broaden the question from "whom did Christ die" to the intent of the atonement, allowing him to import a number of unbiblical paradigms into the discussion.
But isn't that the foundational question? What was God's intent in the atonement? Doesn't that determine for whom did Christ die?
This is about what God intended in the atonement of Christ.
Christ is the one who made the distinction between sheep and goats... He said that He lays down His life for His sheep
John 10:11-16 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand, since he is not the shepherd and doesn’t own the sheep, leaves them[a] and runs away when he sees a wolf coming. The wolf then snatches and scatters them. 13 This happens because he is a hired hand and doesn’t care about the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and my own know me, 15 just as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 But I have other sheep that are not from this sheep pen; I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. Then there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Nothing in here says He laid down His life for MY SHEEP.
IT actually says THE SHEEP.
No mention that unbelievers are goats. We become His sheep thru faith.
A wonderful debate by two godly brothers! This debate came down to the very end for me and White’s pressing the question about intercession. How and why would Christ shed His blood for someone that he does not and never intended to intercede for? The answer is He doesn’t. He died and shed His precious blood to secure eternal life for all those the Father gave him. They are saved and secured to the uttermost. It goes beyond foreknowledge and it goes beyond fallen man’s choice.
Love them both
Dr Brown is spot on!
And then you woke up
Paul.E Tedder He is still spot on on this issue
No he’s not.
I have so many questions! 😂 where to start?🤔 1. If Jesus is the saviour of the world, the word saviour implies that a saviour saves in the past does it not? How can Jesus be the saviour of the world without saving it? People get nervous about the implications, but only because they don’t know in the Greek their are three tenses for save. Their is we have been saved. We are being saved and we shall be saved.
We also know in many verses Jesus tasted death for everyone, or in a Timothy it says he is a ransom for all..IN DUE TIME. A ransom is a payment. We are the prisoner. Does a prisoner have anything do to with the decision of being ransomed? No. It’s clear in scripture Jesus is saviour (he past tense saved the world) how? Through purchasing and securing them through his blood. This is a fact whether you believe it or not. If you know about this and believe it, this will change your life. Jesus will be your Lord, and your life will change. Judgement from God reaches the inhabitants of the earth righteousness. Judgement of God will come to all starting with the family of God. We are all on different time tables. We have been saved. We are being saved. And we shall be saved. All in due time.
awesome~
Which God is bigger, more powerful, more knowing, more saving? It's that simple.
I absolutely love both of these men and they are both very skilled. Truth is we will all learn the answer too this question eventually. Rather belief is preordained or responded too. We all agree that it is the way to salvation. I do not know if i personally had anything too do with accepting grace. I know when i was a non believer an older gentleman sat me down and gave me the good news. I had heard it before but never really responded. However at this time when the older man gave it too me that was it. I believed it was nothing i had not heard before but all tje doubt was removed from me and i not only knew that God existed but i trusted God that he would be the shephard of my life. Wjen i say instantly i mean instantly. I first felt a great conviction and then instantaneous belief and faith. Just my own personal experience and i imagine others differs. Just want too say thank you too both of these men for all there work the glory too God and God alone.
White's anecdote about the dying elder in his church is a complete contradiction of Calvinism's divine determinism. Whether or not that elder had complete faith in Christ's atonement was irrelevant. Either he was elect or he wasn't. God alone determined whether he made I t or didn't and none of us know if he was granted that (made up Calvinistic term here) 'regenerative faith'. God and God alone knows the truth. A bit of a disconnect don't ya think?
I'm a follower of DrBrown but also a Calvinist. While I do believe in predestination it isn't my central focus. It isn't important for my salvation. I think it is a good thing to have theological debates and to discuss things like this but I've avoided debating this with other Christians because I notice people can become very heated and I don't want to argue over trivial stuff. I notice a Calvinist on my Facebook page posts a lot of mocking and angry stuff. His whole focus in Christianity is arguing his points in proving predestination. If he didn't speak about predestination I have no idea if he'd be Christian at all because I hear nothing else coming from him that has to do with Christianity.
Amen. I believe that ANY discussion about scripture (whether discourse or debate) should always be done in respect and humility.
It goes both ways, unfortunately. I, too, am a Calvinist but have immense respect for both these men. Both are very faithful and awesome expositors of the Word. Both are very gracious as well. A lot of Christians can learn a lot from them.
According to Calvinists, "the world" refers to the elect, "you" refers to the elect, "my sheep" refers to the elect, "all men" refers to the elect, "everyone" refers to the elect, "the nations" refers to the elect, "Jew and gentile" refers to the elect
"the world" = elect ???
Jesus said: I do NOT pray for "the world"
Aposte John said: do NOT love "the world"
@@rozznel8692 John 17 Jesus is talking about his disciples, then he prays for those who would believe their(disciples) word as they believed Jesus.
Mr Brown is spot on...question??? Can ALL..Men be Saved...??? YES!!!!!...Will ALL MEN be Saved...???? ...NO!!!... Why???? Jn.3:19-21... choose not to be saves...just bc they are not saved....by choice ...doesn't mean they can't be saved..by choice...!!!!Jer 29:13.... can the unsaved seek God & be saved ????YES!!!...Ezek 33:11 ; 18:23,32
Fascinating stuff. Total respect to Dr. White and Dr. Brown for their exegesis and the manner in which they debate.
The issue I keep coming back to is this:
Why am I a believer and my wife isn’t?
Is it because of some better quality inherent in me that’s lacking in her or is it down to God’s choice?
These seem to be the only 2 options as far as I can see.
Alex Hawkins
It is because of the freedom of will to choose. You and your wife maybe one in the flesh by virtue of marriage, but each of you may not have the same disposition of spirit and will.
God gave men the freedom of will to choose him before they became Christians (Genesis 2:17). That freedom of will was never taken from them after they became his children. As there is no compulsion with God, one can certainly choose to deny or reject his faith if he chooses to. The Spirit only guides believers in this life but he never controls them like robots or automatons against their will. And God will never force anyone into heaven against his will.
“no one understands; no one seeks for God.”
@@ParticularBaptist “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17
Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I don’t understand how Jesus could have actually suffered and died, for those who end up in hell!??
What was the point of his death for them exactly??
When he died on that cross...didn’t he die for ALL sins??
So if he took ALL there sins upon that cross.. Than, why are they in hell??
I’m sorry, but I refuse to believe that Jesus actually FAILED to save anyone!!
Don't let philosophy dictate what you believe over the Bible. th-cam.com/video/BLFNXg73nJ0/w-d-xo.html
@@tsapp2831 Jesus say i shall lose none
My biggest take away from this debate and other things I've read from Calvinist (If unconditional election is true), is although they say the bases for our salvation is what Christ did at the cross; The fact of the matter is, in Calvinism, our salvation was already a given, by the choice God made in predestination for the elect. That's what really saved you or condemns you.
I mean, the choice was already made 100% by God alone; Before the foundation of the world, before people existed or did anything good or bad.
In my opinion that interpretation makes the atonement an academic excercise, because the choice to Save (you and me) was made without gifting faith, without the atoning death and resurrection of the Son. Without appeasing Gods wrath, or having been paid for sin in any way. Well, there was no transgression at that moment either...
God ordained Your salvation from eternity past , Yuppi!! - If your salvation was a given by Gods ordination and predestination, then game over!!
- Its not like Gods going to change his mind now is He?
Sure you might say, yeah but God uses "means". - sure, What "means" did he use to elect you before the foundation of the world? No, I need a coherent, Biblical verse in context, to my objection as an answer.
That's my #1 point of contention against Calvinisms "plan" for salvation.
Worst part, Calvinist can't see it. I think some don't want to. Although thank God, some have. I pray more do.
Fact is, God is most Glorified by His Love and Provision for All people. Not as much by His election of just a few.
I pray God continues to give wisdom to clearly understand His word, and may the Lord be glorified in all we say and do.
Be blessed.
Wow
How about Hebrews 9:28
so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. (Hebrews 9:28, NASB)
What does "many" mean? I think it means all. Because the Bible says that "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19.
Does "many were made sinners" mean that there is a sinless race or does it mean ALL!?
@@Sirach144 friend, interpreting the word many in a symmetrical manner, you go down the path of universalism, for, if many means all in Romans 5:19b, then Christ made righteousness the whole human race.
Election is the greatest comfort for me! The greatest missionaries of the past were almost all Calvinists!
The apostles were the greatest evangelists of all time. They were all obviously pre‐Augustine who was pre‐Calvin and their late to the party doctrines of divine determinism.
Genetic fallacy
The issue Dr White has is that the majority of modern non-reformed evangelicals do not know where he’s coming from and they will miss a lot of what’s he’s trying to communicate
John 3:16 is used frequently to assert that _pas_ πᾶς means "all people." Lets look at the passage:
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever (The literal translation of _pas_ πᾶς is _every_ , which is a contraction of Old English æfre ælc, meaning "each of a group," hence literally" _ever_ (æfre "ever, at any time, always") + _each_ (from _a_ "ever" + gælc "alike") believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
seem like to me that the problem James White is having and seems to keep going around is free will...That Jesus offered His sacrifice for sin to the whole world but those believe are the ones who benefit from it...If you do not receive a free gift but reject it then how can you benefit from it? You cannot but the gift is available to whosoever will believe...So it seems it all comes down again to free will...
yes whosoever will believe:)
God must open the eyes of a sinner before they can or will believe.
All God!
Jesus dies for people but then doesn't intercede for them? Is that biblical?
the HOLY SPIRIT is the intercessor...show me a SINGLE VERSE thats says.. CHRIST ONLY DIED for the elect..there isnt one.. CHRIST DIED FOR ALL SIN and all the world
@@johnnyllooddte3415 "Therefore he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near unto God through him because he always lives to make intercession for them." Can you see how that is Jesus interceding?
@@SamOwenI Jesus only intercedes for those who are born again! You must go to God the Father, through the Son, ONLY then does He intercede. Paul clearly stated in Ephesians that we were under the wrath of God and once walked like those who dont know Christ. I dont believe Christ is interceding for people who have not even been born yet!
@@markwhite5926 my point, and the point of James White in the video is that the basis for the intercession is his sacrifice on their behalf. Jesus doesn't just plead for believers because they believed, but because he gave his life for everyone who would believe. If he makes the sacrifice for every human being, then he can intercede for every human being. But the sacrifice was for the elect, the specific people whom the Father gave to him and that the Spirit will grant faith and repentance to.
@@SamOwenI Jesus christ die for every one but intercede only for believers so they can continue in the faith.
Tradition vs Truth
Ezekiel outlines some of the duties of the post-exilic Messiah. "It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, cereal offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the sabbaths, all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offerings, cereal offerings, burnt offerings and peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel...on the first day of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the sanctuary. The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple...you shall do the same on the seventh day of the month for any one who has sinned through error or ignorance; so you shall make atonement for the temple...the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the lan a young bull for a sin offering...(Ezek 45:13-25). "The prince...shall stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate...The burnt offerings that the prince offers to the Lord on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish...(Ezek 46:1-5). Jesus CANNOT be performing the duties of Ezekiel's prince, the providing of animals to be slain for sin offerings to God for the people's sins and his own sins. Why? Jesus is presented in the New Testament as being the sacrifical lamb of God, who's shed blood on the cross washes away sin. Why would he be required to provide beasts' blood to atone for sins when his shed blood already accomplished this? IT MAKES NO SENSE. Ergo, Jesus cannot be the Messiah envisioned by Ezekiel.
Wow, Dr White says that God created some people with the specific intent to send them to an eternal Hell so that he could demonstrate the full range of his attributes. So, the loving, perfect, patient, forgiving Father created millions of people to put them in Hell so he could show that he is just? That is the sickest and most demented thing I have ever heard. No wonder so many people reject God when stuff like this is being vomited on them.
How do you explain the flood? Was God less loving back then?
I say that God is a just and merciful judge. The thoughts of men had become evil continually and the whole world was corrupt. The Lord put an end to it before there was no going back for any of them. Once I saw that God gave them a chance to be saved I see that His actions were more mercy than they were judgment.
1 Peter 3:18-20 (NKJV)
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
Hebrews, as well as other places in scripture, teach that men can reach a place where they have went to far and they cannot repent and change. I believe God kept the world from going to that place in Noah's day.
Err... why not let the text speak for itself, the Lord flooded the earth because the thought of men was corrupt (period). A "merciful" judge that does not uphold justice is not a judge at all. The cross is much the symbol of God's hatred toward sin that it is for his love and mercy. It goes both ways.
What bothers me the most is that you seem to attach some "I did what I could" twist to God's decision where it doesn't need to. Yes He is merciful, yes He is full of grace BECAUSE HE DECIDED TO not because we somehow become loveable, why is it so hard to apply the same to his judgement, He judges BECAUSE HE IS JUST. Sin is first and foremost an offense to God's character
BTW, even the non calvinists are confronted with the same hard question: God created some people whom He knows will end in Hell => what's the point of creating them? Because God knows in advance, according to Arminian theology, what man will choose, that means Christ's death is not what really saves people, it's their decision. At the brink of Hell, what has saved you is your "decision", what has damned another person is her "lack of decision" => Why do you thank Jesus for saving you? Why don't you thank yourself for your great and wise decision?
@@lalainaramarivelo very, well said
Calvinist believe that God gives the ability to men to repent for some and not to others? Doesn't God want ALL MEN to repent? Then how can be reconcile these two? Can a calvinist explain this to me thank you
Cesar Ortiz brother you need to read Scriptures carefully. James White addressed this. is it all without exceptions(every single individual) or all without exception? people from every tribe and tongue? . The Context tella you which on it is .
You have to distinguish God's decretive will (what God decrees) from God's will of disposition (what brings God pleasure). God may decree things (some to damnation) even though He does not desire it. The cross of Jesus was a good example, God decreed it even though it really pained Him. Hope this helps?
If you ever took time to really study yet read the Bible and read what Calvin said in his institutes and it makes sense this man is dead dead dead there’s no way he can come and resurrect him self and believe all Calvinism says his man is dead that’s what the Bible says and there’s no way he can come to Jesus unless the father draws him and all this talk about man just make this decision on their own if they’re so good that they can make this righteous decision then why would they even need technology Jesus
@@Solideogloria00 it is you that need to read the many many scriptures,that God says choose,choose life. Jesus pleads with man and Pharsees to turn to him. And why is Jesus sad when he says Jerusalem,you who have stoned the prophets ,how i wish that you would come to me,but YOU were not Willing., why would HE say that ,if he already chose and elect some.Why does God Command ALL Men Everywhere to Repent,if we cannot? Jesus said when i am lifted up i will draw ALL men to me.
Why would we want somebody to die for our sins?
We wouldn't. However,it seems God would.
Brown is saying that God demands that a price is paid. The price is paid yet God does not then fulfill his side of the bargain. God is then unjust.
Brown is wrong. He piecemeals theology. Theology is a system. He is obviously very intelligent and a good guy but he didn’t prove his case. The Bible says in Job that whatever God desires he accomplishes. So how can it be that God desires that none be lost and people are still lost. Because it is written in the same case as the 10 commandments-these are things the Israelites were supposed to follow but it was impossible that they ever would do it perfectly. If men could follow the law perfectly then there would not be a need for a savior to atone for sins. Pontius Pilate was destined to be a coward. Judas to be a traitor. The whole world refers to those in nations outside of Israel because the first covenant was with Israel alone. A careful reading of 1, 2, 3 Jn clarifies “the world.” John chp 1 says that man is not saved by the will of man but by the will of God. Brown advocates a saved today by your will lost tomorrow by your will. How can Brown say he knows he has security if he states that his security (perseverance) is dependent on his actions not the sovereignty of God’s care?
Poor Dr Brown! Context context context. He’s smart! Smart not have gone in to the meaning of the scriptures he’s quoting. According to Brown, God has set up his own unhappiness. Did God love Moses the same as Pharaoh? No!!
God loved them both. God used Pharaoh's already hard hardheartedness to accomplish his will. It was his choice to go against God. God did not make him an automaton.
Christ died for all the world and that is the reason why he has the Title savior of the World! Sadly those who reject free gift of salvation and forgiveness will not be saved.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
All you have to do is read God’s Holy Word. No debate needed.
Jew or gentle male or female! Believers are all over the world!
Once again, I am made aware of the fragile linguistic torture required to justify Calvinism.
Calvinism is Scripture GOD centered . Arminianism is HERESY. The truth will set you free.
@@paul.etedder2439 Sorry Teddy, BOTH have some basis in Scripture. That is why BOTH are so doggedly followed. Calvinism, however, fails completely to grasp the *FREE WILL* all through the Scriptures. In fact, the *P* in *TULIP* is the damning admission that a Calvinist can never know if they are elect, or not. Nor anyone else.
Texas75023 I’m definitely not a Calvinist, but clearly you don’t have proper view on free will? What do you mean by free will? Making a decision with no outside influences? I’m not sure what you mean by free will. Everything in life influences us. We plan to go for a picnic. It begins to rain. We change our mind but only because of the rain. Your will is never truly free.
@@Texas75023 So you are saying both Calvinism and Arminianism are true to a certain extent ? A mixture of both belief systems is true ?
@@jeffreyandrewwinters3719 Not exactly the way I would say it.
Being more precise, I would say that Scripture, taken as a whole, provides the complete message that God wished to explain to us. However, the Bible contains scriptures, which when viewed or considered in a VACUUM *meaning out of context or other scripture* can be used to support some positions of each. Like the 5 blind men describing an elephant.
Now, personally, I believe there is far more support for "Free Will" and Redemption offered for all mankind. But there are aspect of Calvinism which clearly exist, such as using the term "The Elect" in some verses. And there are some examples of Men that God specifically USES as a Tool to chastise Israel or accomplish His will, such as King Cyrus. But I do not believe that should be extrapolated as eliminating Free Will.
I believe the correct answer is somewhere in between. But I choose to not begin at either end of the spectrum to define what I understand and believe. And I am not prone to overly-simplified definitions unless there is absolutely on point scripture... and then I still consider the implications of related scriptures.
God is so awesome. He looked at the world in its sin and still gave of Himself for all people. The doctrine of unlimited atonement flows naturally from doctrine of the unmatched and unlimited love and compassion of God.
If all sins of all men were paid for at the atonement then those who suffer in hell are paying double for something that's already been paid for.
Dennis Schilling except they won’t be in hell. Hades (translated into English as hell) will be cast into the lake of fire. Judgement begins in the house of God and we know Christians will be tested with fire also. Why do you believe this fire for Christians is figurative but the other fire is literal? Do you have any scripture to back that up?
Dennis Schilling lake of fire is considered the second death, but doesn’t Paul tell us all death will eventually be done away with?
Who did Christ die for hypothetically, or in actuality should be the question. Who ultimately, actually receives atonement/forgiveness for their sins?
"Gracious invitation" says Dr. Brown. Did Jesus give a "gracious invitation" to these people: John 8:43-45 "Why do ye not understand my speech? Because ye CANNOT hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." Or this: John 10:26-29 "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
51:50 Dr Brown wins this debate to me directly from Leviticus 16... No answer on the direct contextual reference in answer to the direct question, and Dr. White, who I greatly admire, has nothing in reply but 'i think'. I know he draws from his knowledge of all of scripture, but Dr. Brown's answer also contains the rest of scripture as well... in direct, prophetic context out of the book of Leviticus.
I am not Armenian in theology, but this is challenging...
LadiesnGentlman but all of James's arguments on the extent of the atonement were not touched in this debate. Michael just repeated the "all" passages.
I am not Armenian, i am on the side of James and fairly familiar with how he argues.. I do so myself (not at his level, of course), but just simply that the argument from Lev 16 is very, very strong in my eyes... Something i never considered...
Leviticus 16 is directed to the Jews.
@@bettyyu4112 Lev 16 reveals a pattern of reality. It was revealed to Israel. Christ is the truth of that pattern, embodied. As the high priest offered atonement for the whole people of Israel, so Christ offered his for the whole world:
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father-Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" - 1 John 2:1-2
@@LadiesnGentlman These are the direct statements of our Lord Jesus Christ
““I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.”
John 10:11 NASB1995
“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.””
John 10:14-18 NASB1995
“You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.”
John 15:14-16 NASB1995
“Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.””
John 6:29 NASB1995
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.””
John 6:37-40 NASB1995
“I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;”
John 17:9 NASB1995
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44 NASB1995
“Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”
John 17:1-5 NASB1995
Other verses:
“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.”
Colossians 3:12-13 NASB1995
“Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,”
Titus 1:1-3 NASB1995
“Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,”
2 Timothy 1:8-9 NASB1995
“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,”
1 Peter 1:1-3 NASB1995
“For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.”
2 Timothy 2:10 NASB1995
“In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;”
Romans 11:5-7 NASB1995
“When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.”
Acts 13:48 NASB1995
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”
Romans 8:29-30 NASB1995
“So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.”
Romans 9:16 NASB1995
Wow, I have never seen a more clear demonstration of what is true and what is not. Dr. Brown continually quoted very specific scriptures that said exactly what he believes and Dr White reasoned everything away that the Bible says very plainly to fit his predetermined mindset. There is no doubt that the Bible says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. The Bible cannot be any more clear.
1 John 2:2 "and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours (believers) only, but also for the whole world."
Why do you understand "ours" to be "believers" (and therefore juxtaposed against "world" to be "unbeliebers")? Grammatically, "ours" could refer to "Jews" (and therefore juxtaposed against "world" to be "non Jews")?
The grammar supports both interpretations. You chose the former and not the latter. Just curious as to why.
Thanks.
@@timffoster either one would work. Paul said it's not the one who is a Jew by blood but rather one who is circumcised in their heart who is a true Jew so to speak. Of course, that would be saying the same thing. Before the new covenant was revealed we would be talking about Jews and gentiles. If you were a Jew it would be us and them. Once Christ came, that changed to those who are born again believers and those who don't know Christ. It is still us and them or ours and theirs Same concept. Either way you look at it Christ died for the sins of the whole world not just for the Jews or just for the current born-again believers 😁
Five years ago, I saw this debate, I agreed with Michael at that time. However, after I went through the teachings of RC Sproul, I change my mind instead I agree with Dr James Browne. Michael is absolutely right that Jesus Christ shed blood for all mankind. But we have to look at two parts of the human progresses. Part one after Adam and Eve took the bits of the same Apple 🍎 mankind was separated from God due to disobedient resulted in knowing good and evil. Hence living sins and death without hope. God was quite justify to wipe human race from the surface of the Earth then which He did not. Because of our sinful nature we were like cockroaches delighting to stay in darkness rather than in the light! It was our strongest inclination to choose our heart desires 100% as a human beings before Christ died on the cross. Therefore, even the grace of God is freely available to us, unbelievers would still unable to choose God. To be fair, if we can rely on our own effort to gain salvation, God would have no problem with it. However, it is impossible as we all know. 😭😭😭 in this aspect even if Christ, die for all mankind still mankind would not with carnal spirit in us choose Him. Just like the cockroaches hate light 💡🙂🙂🙂. Part 2, after Jesus was crucified and shed blood for all our sins, the believers of Christ Jesus being promised the impartation of the Holy Spirit of God into our spirit, hence we are being born again to receive Christ n gain salvation. That is how predestinations come in. Unless the Father is to Christ, we are Doomed to kingdom comes😰😰😰 God is sovereign, as to how He is going to do that is His business. My faith is in the Gospel n God ‘words’ my thought is higher than your thought so is my way higher than your way’ Amen
Calvanism is like roach poison..99% smells good for theological food but once you consume it like you did with rc sproul it only takes 1% to poison the brain. Think about this in reference to your comment about cockroaches hating light. Cockroaches( insects) cant love or hate the light because thier deeds are evil. Humans have the moral response-ability to suppress the truth or recieve the truth and that determines who God grants repentance. See romans1 18-32, john 3 18-21, 2 thessalonians 2 10-13....im not here to argue but to help you... ive listened to rc sproul for 15 years he was indoctrinated by reformers before him.
Never in scripture does it say anyone is predestined to believe ( justification ) in CHRIST...No one was elect to believe before the foundation of the world to believe but those who do believe are predestined to the adoption to wit the redemption of the body..The only ones who are predestined are those who are in HIM , in CHRIST and the only way to be in HIM , in CHRIST , is to believe and one can't do that before they're at an age to understand..
“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”
Romans 8:29-30
@@bettyyu4112 that's a beautiful passage sister but that passage has nothing to do with being predestined to believe sweetheart . GOD bless you .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 God bless too. It’s God’s sovereign will which prevails over human choice. Salvation is the work of God.
“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
John 6:37
““I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.”
John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.””
John 10:14-18
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.””
John 10:27-30
@@bettyyu4112 you've misreprented everyone of those passages as you have them built around a gnostic doctrine with THE NAME OF OUR SAVIOR attached to it my friend . When you say GOD'S will overrides human free will , it's so insulting to Christians because you say it like we don't believe it just because we reject calvinism . Christians reject calvinism because it blasphemes CHRIST when applied to passages like Mark 16 : 15 when CHRIST is speaking , with its doctrine of election or predestination . In this passage CHRIST has told HIS apostles to go preach the gospel ( offer salvation ) to EVERY CREATURE IN THE WHOLE WORLD and here we see calvinism portrays CHRIST as a lying hypocrite because their doctrine of election has CHRIST telling HIS apostles " go tell that person that I died for him even though I didn't and and if he believes in ME I 'LL save him but I won't save him I'll just make him think he's saved ( evanscent grace ) but send him to hell anyway and I harm my creation like this for my glory like the augustinian calvinist say . " After studying Islam to help me evangelize Muslims more effectively I find that the distinctives of calvinist theology are the same as Islam's theology and allah is described in calvinism not GOD . Then to my further disappointment I find that calvinism derives from augustinianism which has the same distinctives as mannicheanism gnosticism brought into the church by augustine of hippo and its distinctives are those of Islam as well . So , I search further and find out that an Iranian gnostic teacher named Manni was who had influenced augustine as augustine was a mannichean gnostic for 15 years before he came to the catholic church bringing his gnostic ideas with him . Manni come to find out had influenced Islam and Christianity with his predeterministic ideas of theology as well as Islam and gnosticism and the after effect is calvinism in the church of today sadly . I plead with you to flee from calvinism sister because it distorts the gospel of CHRIST as it claims that CHRIST didn't die for everyone like the Bible says HE did from one end of scripture to the other . Please objectively research these things sister and if you do you will see that I'm telling the truth . James White is very dishonest about church history if he knows it like he claims he does because mannichean gnostic used the exact same proof text as clavinists do when debating un the church , the very same ones you just replied with my friend . When I found this out about the proof text it made chills go down my neck and arms . I've witnessed James White outright lie about what the early church taught before augustine in the 5th century as well , not that it affect my theology because I study nothing but biblical scripture and have for over 43 years and never once did I see calvinism in its pages . When I was first introduced to calvinism mark 16 : 15 popped into my mind and I thought how can they reconcile their doctrine of election and predestination with what CHRIST is saying in this passage because one of them isn't correct and of course I knew it wasn't CHRIST WHO wasn't correct . Once again I plead with you to leave calvinism because it's blasphemy against our SAVIOR .
May GOD continue to bless n keep you my friend .
One could say this was a tit for tat UNTIL JW made the case about intercession at the end.
Listening to MB dance around the fact that those in Hell are a lost cause because it’s too late for them was interesting.
I am extremely thankful for God’s grace expressed to me when He knocked me from my horse and removed the scales from my eyes.
Thank you, Lord. ❤
So those that He doesn't knock off the horse - have they been decreed to be reprobate?
@@coryalbright9798 yes so that his wrath can be displayed. We were made for Gods glory. There are vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and people of mercy both who were predestined before the foundation of the world.
@timetravlin4450 why are they prepared for destruction? What reason are they predestined for this?
@@coryalbright9798
“What if God, although **willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known** , endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?”
Romans 9:22
God’s purpose in all of creation is to demonstrate the fullness of His nature and character. His holiness, mercy, grace, anger, justice, and wrath. The Word is clear: He decided, before ever creating a thing, which vessels (people) would be destroyed and which would be saved. God actively hardened Pharaoh’s heart so that He would be glorified in the destruction of Egypt’s false gods (Pharaoh being one himself).
I can already guess the objection: “That’s not fair.” It was the same objection I had for years until I realized that Paul anticipated my objection and already answered it:
“What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it **does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy** . For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then **He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires** .”
Romans 9:14-18
I had to finally be intellectually consistent and admit that I didn’t really believe that. I made excuses my entire Christian life for what is clearly taught in Scripture because I felt like I had to “defend God”. Submitting to the Word and it’s teaching of the sovereignty of God over all things (even salvation, Eph. 1:11) was one of the most humiliating and painful things to do. But anything that is painful and humiliating to the flesh is most likely of the Spirit.
Hope this helps explain our position a bit.
This debate is NOT EVEN CLOSE!
MAN VS child. Dr. White has the balanced system of sotiriology. All Glory to God ALONE...NOT my 1% cooperation!
Is your having faith meritorious?
Regeneration just means "born again" so Dr. White just said that regeneration comes before faith. All throughout scripture states that you are regenerate after placing your trust or faith in Christ Jesus. How can one be born again without first placing there faith in Christ. If they are already born again then there is no need for Christ or faith in christ.
good point...
BINGO! Calvinism is a lie from the father of lies, it teaches that God saves UNbelievers, THE BIBLE teaches that God saves BELIEVERS.
We are spiritually dead, hence, only a regenerated heart (born of Spirit)can we have faith in Jesus Christ.
Speaking of old testament Israel Hebrews 4 2 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
So calvinists don't believe Christ died for whomsoever will? I have a few questions about calvinists and the so-called arminians. Of the two groups, which one is more obsessed with arguing over this issue? Do believers generally divide fellowship over this issue? Is dividing fellowship over this issue a sin?
It's gone on for over 500 years now.. and it's not slowing down :/
Satan is subtle.. He has another gospel, a mixture of good news for SPECIAL favorites and terrible news for not choosen
Why did Christ say specifically that He does not pray for the world but for the ones that God gave Him out of the world? John 17
that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the WORLD may BELIEVE that you have sent me. - John 17:21
Jesus was praying for unity, and unity is something he only wants for his followers
unclanrhino, yes Jesus did want unity for His followers, however, Jesus also wants “unity,” “righteousness,” “reconciliation,” and “salvation” for “all things,” “all men,” and “the world.”
18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to JUSTIFICATION and LIFE for ALL MEN.
19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:18-19
as a plan for the fullness of time, to UNITE ALL THINGS IN HIM, things in heaven and things on earth. - Ephesians 1:10
and through him to RECONCILE TO HIMSELF ALL THINGS, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. - Colossians 1:20
When ALL THINGS are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be ALL IN ALL. - 1 Corinthians 15:28
For God did not send his Son into the WORLD to condemn the world, but in order that the WORLD MIGHT BE SAVED through him. - John 3:17
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD! - John 1:29
@@coreyfriend1 Amen! We agree that Jesus' genuine desire was for the salvation of the whole world. The Calvinist often uses Christ's prayer in John 17 as proof of an predetermined elect; that Jesus' heart is not set on all men's salvation. So I was merely stating that the prayer in John 17 is for a specific thing that Jesus only wanted for his followers (unity). And you were right to point out that the goal of this prayer is for the world to believe! That's often overlooked by the Calvinist
unclanrhino Amen!
Dr.White it was not only all but it also mentioned
all men
the fact that there are people in hades right now, will tell you that if Christ died for thes sins of the world, why they are in that place?
If God fore knew who would choose Him then why did he die for those who He knew would reject Him?
Good question, maybe a synergist here will answer!
Michael. Question does God do the believing for you or do you believe in God by your own accord? If you answer the former you believe in a Divine Puppet Master and prove that Calvinism is based of faulty logic and if you believe in the latter welcome to the Synergism Club?
The bible says you were dead in your sins (Eph 1). The bible says he who is in the flesh cannot please God (Rom 8). Jesus says he who sins is a slave to sin. Jesus says no one can come to him (believe) unless the Father who sent Jesus draws him (John 6). The Bible says the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to those whom God has called, it is the power of God (1 Corin) . The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit (1 Corin 2).
These verses off the top of my head (and there are many more) that teach not only the UNWILLINGNESS of man to believe but the INABILITY of man to believe on his own. A supernatural power is needed to change man's heart from one oriented towards the flesh to one oriented towards God, only that heart in faith can please God.
(Can the ethiopian change the color of his skin, or the leopard change his spots? Can these dry bones put flesh and life on themselves? Can the unbeliever remove his own heart of stone and put in a heart of flesh? Of course not. Do sheep choose the shepherd or does the shepherd choose the sheep? But we are God's sheep. Do children adopt their parents or do parents choose which child to adopt? But we are adopted children of God and heirs with Christ. These are all things only God has the power to do. We by ourselves are unable.)
You didn't answer the question. Do you a)believe in God on your own will or b)does God believe for you? It's either a or b.
Ok, good question.
I was trying to show you biblical evidence that no one can believe on their own without God's help. Regeneration by the Spirit precedes faith. It must, because as I've shown, faith in God is spiritual, and is foolishness to everyone without the help of the Spirit.
So the answer to your question is we cannot believe in God of our OWN will, our will must be changed BY GOD first so we can believe. The biblical examples (as I've listed already) are leopards changing their spots, hearts of stone replaced with hearts of flesh, spiritually dead becoming spiritually alive, bones becoming alive with flesh, etc. These things require an external, spiritual cause, and that can only be God.
I know I didn't use either of your answers a) or b), but I don't think they were sufficient to properly answer. Does that help?
Dr White is right. They kept trying to leave the issue of the atonement.
Jesus washed the feet of all His disciples including Judas. Yet Judas did not become clean Jn 13^10.
The sacrifice of the passover lamb was available, yet man had to respond by applying the blood to their doors.
The brazen serpent was available in the wilderness, yet those bitten had to respond by looking to it.
We have to obey our Passover Lamb, looking to Jesus in faith.
The bible says those who believe in him have eternal life
This debate solidify me in God's sovereignty and sovereign choice.
Dr. Brown states twice that the word world means all humanity. At 8:30 he makes the claim that text after text shows that Jesus died for the sins of every human being. The first text he cites is John 3:16. Then he states "explicitly" that the term world cannot mean the elect, (so therefore it must mean something else) and then by 9:30 he defines it as all humanity. Then when people call him on it using other citations (both in Part 1 and Part 2 of the debate) from John's gospel and letters, he only emphasizes it doesn't mean the elect.
I don't know if Dr. Brown intended this. My hope is he didn't. But this is a trick often used by debaters to "prove" their point by offering a false dichotomy, then never positively defending their view. They only knock down the straw man on the other side, and the audience is left thinking that since the other side can't be true, then the other part of the dichotomy must be true. But it starts with a false dichotomy. The word world doesn't always have to mean either all the elect (which Limited Atonement people do not say), or all humanity. The word itself is kosmos, which means order. There are several different applications of the word translated into world in our English bibles. So to present it as one or the other is regrettable. John 3:19 gives an entirely different understanding of the word world from "all humanity" even separating "people" from the created order. "Light has come into the WORLD, and PEOPLE loved the darkness rather than light"
James White contradicted Michael Brown on Leviticus 16 saying that the atonement in the Old Testament was not for the whole nation but for those who drew near. He explained his position by referring to Hebrews 7. But when I checked Leviticus 16, this is what I found on v. 16-17: "16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel."
Indeed, not the whole world, but the people of Israel, the people of the covenant. That's not primarily about a people in a particular location ("draw near" spatially), but a people who are part of a covenant. Remember, the focus of these texts, if you read them you will see, is Christ's ability to redeem a specific people based on the acceptability of his sacrifice before the Father and his eternal life having made the sacrifice, not the ability of man to avail himself of the work of Christ and therefore control its power.
God saved me because i believe in the Gospel message.how could i know unless ive heard.Then i made a decison to accept or deny.whats wrong with that .
So you’re saying your decision saved you and the blood of Jesus didn’t?
how about all the other times you heard but did not accept?
When God opens the eyes of a sinner, then and only then can he accept.
Soli Deo Gloria^
Christ died for every single human that is lost, the gift is free but will you receive it? Many have rejected Him but the offer is for every one: John 3:16 "whosoever"
True, the offer is for everyone, but that doesn't mean that everyone has the ability to accept it. John 6 makes that explicitly clear.
regelemihai only in that those who are hardened to God already may be further hardened by Him to seal their fate, justly.
FACTvsEVOLUTION we have to take into account the clear reading to anyone who reads it, not always some deeper aspects. He preached openly, not with His message hard to discern apart from scholars.
to the one in whom Christ died, if he never heared the gospel are the name of Jesus, how then can he be saved by the Death of Christ who paid for his sin? does he go to hell cause God paid for his sin, but was not able to get the gospel to him before he died? does he suffer in hell for sins that Jesus paid for? was not God great enough to get the gospel to every one before they die? that is a question that Brown cannot answer. I have been through this a hundred times, I have been to seminary the atonement is limted, the question is who limit it? man are God.
Dr Brown did very well
If one studies the subsistence of the God-man, IMHO, it aids the student to understand Dr White's point concerning the link of high priest and intercession in regards to Christ dying for "My sheep [that] hear My voice." Dr Brown points that it is faith that causes the effect of salvation. Dr White rebuts that saying that faith is a gift and a result of already being regenerated which in turn requires the blood of Christ being applied. Jn 3 states that the sinner cannot even see the kingdom unless he is first regenerated, i.e. born from above. If God was able to give the Mediator a covenant subsistence endless ages before He was born as being the God-man, how much more could He then declare a covenant subsistence of the elect in the God-man's cross work?
I'm not a big fan of debates because there is so MUCH underlying, foundational theology that goes unnoticed and/or unexplained to 99% of the general audience. I'd much rather read a full book where each position is demonstratively presented from which there would be a fuller criterion to adjudicate. Dr. Brown brings into the discussion so many of the buttressing issues that the main point of debate is obfuscated. I like the fact that Dr White keeps bringing the debate to the primary point at hand.
James White doesn’t understand the atonement. It’s that simple. James seems to think that the atonement (bearing the punishment reserved for sin, which is death), has to mean everyone is saved (straw man hoisted by Calvinists), or its only for the elect from the foundation of the world (Calvinistic position). Let’s explain the atonement.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 KJV
[18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
From 2 Corinthians, it’s clear that
1) god has reconciled the world to himself,
2) he has reconciled the world to himself via Jesus Christ (accomplished work in the cross),
3) god has committed the word of reconciliation to the apostles and given the apostles the ministry of reconciliation, and
4)conclusion, the atonement is Jesus becoming sin while he has no sin, and bearing the punishment of sin (death) when he did not deserve to die, thus, Jesus has reconciled man back to god. He has put all men, collectively, back in good terms with the father. Reconciliation does not equal “saved” though. Let’s continue.
Colossians 1:20-23 KJV
[20] And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. [21] And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Reconciliation is the means in which mankind is put back on good terms with god. Before Jesus shed blood, there was no means for us to be presented holy/blameless before god. This is why the faithful who died in the OT, were in captivity in Abraham’s bosom. The yearly sacrifices of the blood of goats/bulls/etc in the Old Testament, were performed to hold over until eventually the blood of Jesus was shed. They were awaiting the accomplished work of Christ, such that they could be presented as blameless and holy before god. This is why Jesus went to lead captivity captive.
So, reconciliation is Jesus accomplished work, which does away with the the age of the law (condemnation only), and transitions ALL OF MANKIND to the age of grace (salvation by faith unto obedience). The scripture say god has reconciled the world to himself, and that reconciliation is via Jesus Christ. This is the atonement for all men. And read verses 22 and 23. We are reconciled to be presented holy and blameless, but the condition is “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven”
The atonement is for all, as it’s Jesus accomplished work, which reconciled all men to god. That reconciliation is the son bearing the punishment from the father. The reconciliation allows all men to be presented holy and blameless before god, but man must submits in faith and endures as we are commanded, and at the end he can be presented as holy and blameless before god.
Hopefully I have made it clear enough. The atonement is for all mankind, which refuted Calvinism.
I'm still waiting for a calvinist to say "I am NOT one of the elect, but I still agree with calvinism and love God for choosing me for eternal torment to show everyone His perfect justice!" That will be a calvinist I would respect.
That's just silly.
+Kate Snyder Calvinism is evil? LOL Ok. Hard to have a conversation with that.
Where do you get that Calvinists think Satan is God's puppet, or that any of us are puppets? We are all moral agents, making choices that flow from the desires of our hearts.
I'm a Calvinist because I believe the Bible teaches and holds 2 truths: Man is responsible and God is sovereign, both over salvation and over events.
We are not puppets. We are fully responsible and will have to answer for the choices we make. The selling of Joseph into slavery, the lying about it, etc. was all called authentically evil by Joseph. And yet he says: "God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant on earth, and to keep alive for you many survivors. So it was not you who sent me here, but God." (Gen 45)
We are morally responsible and yet God is sovereign: "For we have been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will." (Eph 1:11.)
Yes, God is sovereign. His plans, his purposes, his counsel stands; He doesn't just frustrate the plans of 1 person, but of entire nations, millions of so-called free creatures. God runs the show. The psalmist says:
"The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations." (Psalm 33)
What of this are you having a hard time with so I can try to explain it?
Thanks, but no thanks. As soon as I heard about calvinism (and james white) I was staunchly repelled by it. But around 27 years old I really studied the entire new testament and my heart was changed to see the amazing revelation that I would simply not have sought God on my own. I'm so impressed with how the doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty is like the key that makes sense of the old testament and the new and makes a single, sweeping, unified story of untold majesty. Were you in a reformed church? What I would give for that privilege! How can you read the book of John and see the glorious revelations Jesus makes about the unity of purpose of the Father and the Son to powerfully save God's people and keep them 100% eternally secure, and turn away from that?
Kate, Dr. Flowers has the most awful scripture twisting "interpretation" on Romans 9 I've ever had the displeasure of hearing. And I cannot believe that anyone who claims to have tasted and known the simple, straightforward, and sweet truth contained therein would trade that for the rubbish that Flowers calls exegesis.
Now after what you wrote, I am very doubtful that you really were a genuine Calvinist, or if you were, you were a very uninformed one. How can anyone who has the slightest knowledge of Reformed teaching say that Jesus never taught anything like the doctrines of grace and read Jesus amazing words in John 6, John 17, etc, etc. "No man can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day." It's just mind boggling. How can that person make the statement that "Jesus condemned billions of souls to hell." As if they weren't headed there already and wanted nothing to do submitting to the Lordship of Christ because the gospel is "foolishness to them". I could go on... maybe you could interact a bit with what I've said here already, if you want?
James White firmly believes God will accomplish ALL His desire. (Isa46:10) Michael Brown firmly believes God desires ALL to be saved. (1Tim2:4) Both are true.
corey david and Jesus was a ransom for all to be testified IN DUE TIME.
1. God accomplished all his desires
2. God desires all to be saved
3. All will be saved in due time.
@@55dengen So do you believe in Universalism ?
Jeffrey Andrew Winters sounds like he does beleive in universalism
@@55dengen I agree. Col 1:15-20 along with Rom 5:15-21 seem to make this explicit. God is the "Savior of all men, especially of those who believe" (1Tim 4:10).
Corey Friend
No thats contrary to what scripture tells us.
John. 3:17-19 sums it all up on how salvation works
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Through Jesus we are saved if we have faith in him, those who dont beleive REMAIN condemned for rejecting the light that came into the world, loving the darkness instead of the light
Mathew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
ETERNAL LIFE
ETERNAL PUNISHMENT
2 roads not 1 according to Matthew 7:13
Which one are you on??? Dont have to answer, let the scripture speak to you
Galations 1:8 Theres only one true gospel. Anyone who preaches another is anathema
Well, were we not the "world" prior to our conversion?
John 3:16 says whole world not just all