@@UnitarianChristianAlliance Is there a way to get a PERFECT transcript of this? I have been studying this subject for YEARS in light of man being created Spirit, Soul & Body. Thanks for ANY help in obtaining this transcript.
I can sense Dr White's frustration. Tuggy was not only giving his commentary during cross-examination which he wasn't supposed to do, but also introduced a different topic in his opening remark rather than engage with the affirmative. If the debate topic was "Jesus: Only a Man" then Tuggy's opening would have been appropriate. Instead White had to do both affirm and deny, and it makes it harder for the audience to follow. I have watched numerous debates and I have seen Muslims do the same thing.
Dr. Tuggy has apologized for the comments during cross ex. But as far as his opening, he didn’t do anything inappropriate in describing his view which is counter to White’s affirmation of the debate prompt. Tuggy went beyond simply responding “no”, and on to “and this is what is better”. In debate parlance, it’s called a “competitive advantage” case. Nothing wrong with it at all.
1:32:55 his attitude and tone of voice show everything. This is why I haven't liked James White since the first time I watched a few of his videos. He is completely insincere and arrogant. All he can do is use garbage arguments (which Dale refuted with trinitarian citations), and use lots of rhetoric to try to sway the audience. He doesn't care about the unitarian ways of interpreting the scripture. He's just another guy with his head in the sand that keeps telling his laypeople to avoid any unitarian content because it's "stupid/bogus/dangerous". Well guess what James White, it doesn't matter how much you and all of the other trinity doctrine salesmen try their best to suppress the truth. Anyone who actually seeks the truth will find it. I have tuned into the "core christianity" radio show a handful of times. They are being bombarded with questions and problems about the trinity. One caller said that she was unable to argue against a unitarian because they had such good biblical arguments. Adriel Sanchez simply went on a BS rant about how unitarians are cultists and cited the same BS "prooftexts" that most IGNORANT apologists use. I tried asking them a hard question about why Dr Fred Sanders said that the doctrine of the trinity wasn't revealed in the Bible. They never answered me. That's really telling...
As a former Trinitarian, I thank God for our wonderful brothers and sisters in the UCA and the work they are accomplishing. I pray more will turn away from the false and man-made Doctrine of the Trinity. The Only True God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
@donnykobana5209 Wake up, Donny, the church is deceived! Listen to Jesus! John 20:17 "Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
@koroglurustem1722 If you believe that the title "Lord" means "God Almighty," then no, Jesus is not God Almighty. God is Jesus's Father, alone. However, a "Lord" is a title of a ruler. And God made Jesus our Lord. Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" Jesus has been raised by God and exalted to God's right hand as "Lord of all creation"; "far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Subject ONLY to God Almighty. (1 Corinthians 15:27-28) Lastly, Romans 10:9 says "If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Jesus is Lord, and his Father; God, raised him from the dead Do you agree, my friend?
@koroglurustem1722 If you believe that the title "Lord" means "God Almighty," then no, Jesus is not God Almighty. God is Jesus's Father, alone. However, a "Lord" is a title of a ruler. And God made Jesus our Lord. Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ" Jesus has been raised by God and exalted to God's right hand as "Lord of all creation"; "far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come" Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Subject ONLY to God Almighty. (1 Corinthians 15:27-28) Lastly, Romans 10:9 says "If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Tuggy says," A contradictory interpretation of scripture means that you need to go back to the drawingboard, and do better." Exactly true!! And there is no proposition known to man that is more self-contradictory than the doctrine of the Trinity.
@@marksimpson4215 did Jesus say the glory I had with you( referring to the father).he did not say (as you) but with you. Did Jesus humbled himself to enter into flesh( creation)? Answer is clearly yes( Philippians chapter 2 verses 5,6,7).He(Jesus) did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.Jesus in his consideration showed his own consciousness.
@dualtags4486 And what false gospel would that be? Are you claiming that the scriptures state that we must believe in a triune being or we don't believe the gospel? I'll wait for you to provide that verse from the scriptures.
False. The Bible nowhere states he is antichrist that denies Jesus is God, or that he is a two natured being that is part of a triune being. The scriptures state he is antichrist that denies Jesus is the Christ, that he is come in the flesh, ie, a real man, because it was common in those days for pagans to believe in "god/men" that weren't human beings. I would be careful if I were you, calling someone an antichrist that the Bible does not.
@@Yce_Take Your opinion and lack of verse has been noted. @V_George wrote: "You left trinitarianism and hence deny that Jesus is God because of the spirit of Antichrist"
The Unitarian arguments are very convincing… at most trinitarians can show Jesus was thought as divine , but the idea that the holy spirit and Jesus are all Yahweh is not in the text.
It absolutely is. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God... AND Scripture teaches there is One God. The conclusion? Father, Son, Holy Spirit are three distinct person's: One God.
There is one Most High God, the one true God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20), who is the Father of Jesus. The triune god is not the one true God and is not the Father of Jesus. There is one Lord (1 Cor. 8:6), Jesus the Messiah, who is the Son of God, begotten in the womb of Mary. Arguably he is called theos in Hebrews 1:8, which is derived from Psalm 45:6 - a reference to the Davidic king (elohim), unless the alternate translation is true - God is your throne, or your throne is God's. The spirit is God. God's personal presence. But not a third "self." God, the Son of God, the spirit of God. But no triune being.
This is not the Trinitarian position. To anyone who is a Unitarian or convinced by this Unitarian talking point, I urge you to actually read the Nicene Fathers and a basic text like Fr John Behr's Nicene Theology/Way to Nicea series. I would highly recommend listening to Dr Beau Branson's talks, as he addresses Tuggy specifically, and his dissertation, "The Logical Problem of the Trinity," specifically calls out Tuggy. The basic Trinitarian position outlined at Nicea and Constantinople I is that there is one God, the Father, who communicates his divinity to his Son, who is his Wisdom and Power (per the New Testament). The Holy Spirit is likewise understood to be of the same nature as the Father, because he shares in the same Divine Activity that is proper only to Divinity (cf Gregory of Nyssa Ad Ablabius). The theology of "One Divinity" is only preserved, according to Gregory Nazianzus, if one refers back to a "single principle," which is universally identified as the Father. The Son and Spirit both derive their Divinity from the Father, who is their source, or "arche". This is called Monarchical Trinitarianism, and is the predominant view of those who penned the Nicene Creed and presided over the council of Constantinople. Take your time to actually understand this doctrine. History is complex, and this naive protestant presupposition inherited in Unitarianism that "we just look at the text!" is exactly what leads to endless and eternal schisms and separations.
@pj1683 You have provided the perfect example of what has actually caused so many problems. Rather than going to the text seeking understanding from God, you instead would have people to accept as truth the creeds and writings of others who have attempted to explain the text just as other people have. Those people are just men too.... just like the ones you seem to be criticizing. Nothing you said comes from scripture....only a strand of tradition.
I think Dr Dale Tuggy won this debate by presenting his arguement better, however, one aspect that seems to be clear to me is that Jesus did preexist prior coming as a man.
1:23:12 No writer of the Bible says that YHWH is the combination of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore the "triune god" is NOT a "biblical revelation." White's statement is just false. 1:25:20 White just admitted that "god the son's" incarnation made him not have all "god" features"/"powers". So why is it that 99% of trinitarians claim that Jesus proved he was "god" by doing miracles and having "divine knowledge"??? Contradictory statements/beliefs. "God the son" somehow "gave up being god" but at the same time still is "god." Nonsense. It doesn't even agree with other trinitarians. 1:27:25 and here is the complete undermining of the "penal substitution" atonement theory. White admits that it was only the "human nature" that "died" on the cross. 99% of mainstream christians claim that the only way our sins could be "paid for" is if "God died." James White said that God did not die - Just like Michael Brown. Therefore 99% of christians must conclude that their sins have not been "paid for" since God did not actually die.
right, that last one of yours is a massive nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. "Only an infinite God could die to atone for infinite sins!" combined with "it wasn't God who died, it was His human nature!" Um.........
And that is why Jesus is God, becuase he is God. He took on humanity, became the second Adam a sinless righteous one who though tempted, overcame that temptation and layed down his life. Becuase he was 100% man. However in no way have I destroyed his 100% God. Which is what Jesus does in forgiving sins and claiming to be God: transfiguration, rising from the dead, healings, receiving worship, etc.
How do deny diety of Christ in the context of Philippians 2:6 “.. though He was in THE FORM of God, did not count EQAULITY with God and thing to be grasped, but emptied himself…”. How do you willingly give up divinity you don’t already possess?
@@Barefootseal_66 1) The translation and meaning of this verse is the most controversial out of everything in the NT (according to what I've heard). 2) you are making an equivocation between "in the form of God" and "God" (ontologically) 3) Because of #2, most trinitarians then make the equivocation between "took the form of a servant" and "took on human nature". That is what many trinitarians do. They must read in-between the lines or change the words of scripture. "becoming a man" or "taking on human nature" is totally not in the same category as "taking the form of a servant." The comparison between the former and later in the verse would be apples-to-oranges, as they say. 4) I believe when it says "in the form of God" it is likely referring to either Jesus' lordship or his sinlesness or both. Jesus has been exalted by God to God's right hand and has been made Lord. He is ruling the world on behalf of God as he has been appointed. Instead of acting like the king of the world, he instead washed his disciples' feet. He also was sinless, therefore being like God. The pharisees acted like they were perfect and treated everyone else like peons. Instead of being like the Pharisees, Jesus didn't use his piousness to look down on others.
Dale's conduct in the question and answer was awful, not following rules, making petty comments. He wanted to frame James with words and when he saw he couldn't do it he got mad 😂😂😂 Other than that, in his opening statement he quoted scripture that clearly identifies Jesus as God but conveniently left those verses out. Jesus will come in glory as Yahweh and all knees will bow to him, he will judge, he is the one that searches the mind and hearts (only Yahweh can do that), he is the one that wounds (only Yahweh does that) he is the one that holds the keys of death in his his hand and again according to scripture only Yahweh can do that.
Thank you for posting the improved version. Trinitarians have sunk to a new all-time low. Having literally left nothing unique for God our Father. Even His Holy Name (YHWH) has been taken away and given to Jesus. This is so unfortunate 😔
@@xxxViceroyxxx The Bible distinguishes between God the Father and God the Son for us; without understanding this distinction, one can easily fall into Modalism.
Biblical Unitarians put God YHVH in His rightful place as Creator (Revelation 4), and Jesus in his rightful place as the human Messiah and Lamb (albeit now resurrected and exalted) (Revelation 5:1-12). One God, and one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).
No, you don't, because you ignore every Bible passage that reveals the true nature of God and of Jesus. Why are you only able to accept some truths but not all of them?
@@King_Conan I have found more coherency, logic, and simplicity in Scripture for the past 14 years since leaving my lifetime of Trinitarian churches at 58. I still love God and his son Jesus passionately. We have a responsibility to love God with all our mind ... so keep checking out what others say (Acts 17:11) and let the Scriptures speak for themselves.
Yeah, he cooked his opponent. Gave many things I could use in my ministry to help people to better reason on the one true living God and escape the mind shackles of the Trinitarian lie.
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. "God was manifest in the flesh" "The Word was made flesh" Jn 1:14 "The Word was God" Jn 1:1
I am a Muslim and was just listening to a Unitarian vs. Trinitarian debate. I felt compelled to write when Dr. White mentioned Muslims and his debates with them. From a Muslim perspective, Jesus was a messenger of God who never feared and never asked his disciples to worship him. Instead, he always preached about the existence of one God. Furthermore, he explained to the Jewish children of his time that if he could call himself the Son of God without blasphemy, then so could they consider themselves children of God. He was emphasizing that his use of "Son of God" was metaphorical, just as they metaphorically called themselves children of God. Thus, we should not misinterpret his words to mean that he claimed divinity. God is beyond human relationships like father, mother, or child, and exists without being created. Anything created by Him or anyone else cannot be God. If I have offended anyone with my words, I sincerely apologize. I do not intend to start any debates on this forum.
@@LeadersMirrorPeople Jesus claimed to be one with the father Be with the father from the beginning Claimed to be the son of God in reference to Daniel chapter 7 - a chapter specifically about worship to God. Received worship as God Claimed to be the ‘I am’ in reference to Exodus where God identifies himself as Yahweh the ‘I am’ Mohammed was not a messenger from God, but a liar. He claims to be present in the Bible but is found nowhere.
The understanding of Dr White is wrong. Jesus is not the creature.God created all things through him. And for him. There's only one creator God the Father . Don't twist that Dr White .
Jesus is not a creature, and all things were created through him, you say? Ok.. well If Jesus is “not” created then he’s eternal. He “is” as the father “is.” The only uncreated one is Yahweh. Therefore Jesus must be Yahweh. Fulfilling John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD.
Check this out, obviously the Temple was the temple of Jehovah. The expression "House of Jehovah," "Jehovah’s House" is found 246 times in the OT. Classical Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus is not God the Father. YET here Jesus, who they believe is Jehovah, is cleansing the temple of "his Father," Zeal for YOUR house has eaten me up, not "MY house." We see that in John 2:16, 17. Compare Luke 2:49. Obviously his Father is Jehovah. Jehovah is the Father. Exodus 4:22; Deuteronomy 32:6; Isaiah 63:16; 64:8) Jehovah is "the Most High" Psalms 83:18. Jesus is "the son of the Most High." Luke 1:32 Jesus must then be the "Son of the Father" 2 John 3 "the Son of Jehovah."
Jehovah is a man made name. It's YAHWEH that is given as the name of God to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15 Furthermore, God said to Moses, “Tell the children of Israel this: ‘I am the one who is [ego eimi ho on] Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered, my memorial to all generations. ~ Moses, Exodus 3:14-15. "I am YAHWEH, that is my name." Isaiah 42:8 The truth has been established by two witnesses. Believe it or perish.
@@NickHawaii It depends on the verse and whether the translators provided a Biblically compatible translation or not. In cases where the correct Greek grammar results in a translation that conflicts with other plain and obvious verses, then it cannot be relied upon. I use John 1:14 as a good example. Myself, and a few others have, independent of each other, translated John 1:14 as: "and the word came to humanity and dwelt in us...etc...etc." Why? 1. Because the word of YAHWEH is his possession, not a person. 2. Because the word of YAHWEH never became anyone, and it is still His word. 3. Jesus said the words he spoke BELONGED to his Father and they were not his own words. 4. Because "sarx egennato" can also be translated as "came to humanity" (the human kind of flesh). 5. Because "en himen" is properly translated as "IN US" 6. Because the OT promises the word and spirit will be in people. 7. Because if the word is not in a person, then neither is the spirit, and that means they are not saved. 8. Because the Hellenistic Jew named Philo and Plato are behind the logos theory that resulted in the traditional translation of John 1:14....which is wrong! 9. The traditional translation of John 1:14 is packed with Gnosticism and Mysticism. My translation is not. I could go on and on. I have written extensively on John's prologue and my defence of my translation requires a book or a series of about a dozen posts, each one stretching the text limit for a post. Bottom line: My translation does not conflict with a single Biblical doctrine, and in fact brings them all together under one light....the light of the word and spirit. The traditional translation cannot meet that standard. It mocks the word of YAHWEH by contradicting it. Deuteronomy 18:18 is a good example. YAHWEH never said He would make His word become a flesh man named Jesus or anyone else.
@@NickHawaii The translation I prefer for Exodus 3:14-15 comes from the LXX. JOHN 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 PART 1 Did Jesus say "I am God? The use of uppercase letters when translating "ego eimi" in John 8:58 and "ego eimi ho on" in Exodus 3:14, is deceptive and misleads people to think Jesus is YHWH. The Greek expression, "ego eimi" is never used as a name for YAHWEH, Jesus, or anyone. The Greek in Exodus 3:14 reads "ego eimi ho on" "ego eimi" translates (I am) "ho on" translates (the one who is)." There is no connection between "ego eimi" in John 8:58 and "ego eimi ho on" in Exodus 3:14-15. Furthermore, God said to Moses, “Tell the children of Israel this: ‘I am the one who is [ego eimi ho on] Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered, my memorial to all generations. ~ Moses, Exodus 3:14-15. "I am YAHWEH, that is my name." Isaiah 42:8 The truth has been established by two witnesses. Believe it or perish. People also need to be aware that the verse numbers are not in the original Hebrew, they are added. There is no sentence breaks either. Therefore, it is improper to break up verses 14 and 15 in Exodus 3. They must be read together as one statement. Reading Exodus 3:14 and claiming the Greek expression "ego eimi ho on" is the same as "ego eimi" in John 8:58 does an injustice to the word of YHWH. The 70 plus Hebrew scholars that translated the Hebrew texts into Greek (LXX) chose to translate "EHYEH ASHER EHYEH" as "ego eimi ho on" which translates to English as "I am the one who is" The next verse tells us that the "WHO" is "YAHWEH." Should we ignore the 70 or more Hebrew scholars who all agreed to the above translation? Jesus NEVER EVER says I am YHWH. Jesus tells us his Father is greater then he is, and greater than ALL. In John 8:58 Jesus was declaring himself to be the Messiah who was prophesied to come before Abraham existed. He was not declaring himself to be God. CONTEXT is needed to understand this final declaration by Jesus that comes at the end of a long conversation. The Greek expression is "ego eimi." This expression is not a name for anyone. JOHN 4: 25 The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he (ego eimi).” [the Messiah]. JOHN 7: 28 So Jesus cried out while teaching in the temple, saying, “You both know me, and know where I am from. And I have not come on my own, but he who sent me is true, whom you do not know. 29 I know him because I am from him, and he sent me.” 31 But many of the multitude believed in him, and they said, “When the Christ [Messiah] comes, will he do more signs than those that this man has done?” [It's a rhetorical question with an obvious answer. Jesus is the Messiah and there is no other like him]. JOHN 8: 18. I am one who testifies about myself, and the Father who sent me testifies about me.” [proof Jesus is not the Father YHWH]. 19. Therefore they said to him, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me, nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” [people who think Jesus is YHWH do not know Jesus or the Father. They worship a god of foolish men's own making]. 24. That is why I said to you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.” [I am the one, meaning the Messiah, the one who was prophesied to come before Abraham existed]. The Bible is quite clear on this fact. Deuteronomy 18:18; Genesis 3:15 25. So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. [this is a no brainer. Jesus declared himself to be the Messiah from the beginning and he proved it by fulfilling prophecy and doing miracles]. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one. And I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things. [again, proving Jesus is not YHWH. People who think Jesus is YHWH, know nothing of the Father or the Son. They are delusional. YHWH has not revealed Himself or His Son to them. They Follow a Jesus of their own making]. 42. Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; for I have not come on my own, but he sent me. [Jesus is not YHWH....proof text]. 43. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you are not able to hear my word. [People who willfully believe Jesus is YHWH are not able to hear the words of Jesus, they are spiritually dead and willfully ignorant]. 44. You are of your father the Devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar, and the father of them. 45. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me. 46. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe me? 47. The one who is of God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” 54. Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ 55. And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I were to say, ‘I do not know him,’ then I would be like you: a liar. But I know him, and keep his word. 56. Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see my day, and he saw it, and rejoiced.” REV Bible Translation gets it right. ["saw" means KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the prophecies concerning Jesus coming] 57. Therefore, the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” [they misunderstood Jesus words]. 58. Before Abraham existed, I am ("he"), or, ("the one"). WHO? The one Jesus declared himself to be from the beginning (John 4:25-26; John 7:28-31; John 8:18-19-24-25-28; John 8:42-47). Jesus said he is the Messiah who was prophesied to come. Jesus is not YHWH. He never said he was YHWH. That is the evidence. That is the CONTEXT. END OF PART 1 Part 2 deals more directly with John 8:58.
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. John 17:3 KJV - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 Corinthians 8:6 New King James Version 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. This verse does not prove the Father is the only God. At first you might think it is, until you read the whole bible. From this verse, it is clear that: ALL THINGS ARE FROM THE FATHER ALL THINGS ARE THROUGH THE SON But the question is: CAN ALL THINGS BE "THROUGH GOD?" Romans 11:33-36 New King James Version 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of➡️God! ⬅️How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! 34 “For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?” 35 “Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?” 36 For of Him and➡️THROUGH HIM⬅️and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
John 17:3 New King James Version 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. This verse does not prove that the Father is the only true God. Here's the reasons why: Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son. 1) Jesus is praying for his disciples who are Jews. Born as Jews, growing up as Jews and having the Old Testament as their Scriptures; they definitely believed and knew all their life that the Father is the only true God. Jesus does not need to pray for them to know the Father as the only true God.
The speakers exchanged opening statements, which means they both prepared their rebuttals beforehand. Note that Dr. Tuggy did respond point by point to Dr. Whites opening statement, while Dr. White did not respond to Dr. Tuggy’s opening statement. White’s complaint was projection, it was actually he that failed to engage.
Sanctify Christ as "Lord"....White is conflating the usage of Lord with the almighty God. Most of the translations won't say Christ as Lord??? The only ones I noticed are KJV and New KJV. Clear misleading statement.
What Dale Tuggy has said are all based on theory and not on the Word of God. What he and Bart Erhman need is revelation knowledge from the Holy Spirit, without the help and revelation of the Spirit of God they will never know the True God of the Bible.
So you're saying we should ignore the data we have, and the clear verses (and their apparent meanings), and trust a voice that everyone and every church claim to have, even though they differ? isn't a bit dogmatic?
I think it is hilarious that Doctor White expected Doctor Tuggy to respond to his opening statement in his own opening statement. Doctor White makes himself look like an ignoramous at that point and never recovered from that colossal error!
Tuggy's "Biden" example was spot on in terms of how the words "all" and "every" are used. Not just in the Bible, but in everyday language. In other words, they must be qualified. I would think this would be obvious, but it is a window into the mind of James White, and let's us know why he misinterprets the bible where these terms are used all the time. For example: Mark 1:5 KJV - "And there went out unto him ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." Does anyone think that everybody to a man in Jerusalem and Judea, came down and got baptized by John the Baptist ?? All means "all" !! Or does it? Obviously, the word "all" in this scripture, and in virtually every scripture that is used, has to be qualified. It's so sad that James White can not see that.
I'm really confused why James White didn't rebut Tuggy's position in his rebuttal time. It's as if he just zoned out and went into speech mode because he didn't engage with the text Tuggy presented. I lean towards Trinity but White's argument was wholly inadequate. As conscientious Christians, we must go with the most sound and coherent argument. In this case that's the Unitarian argument.
Jesus is God and any spirit that says otherwise is an antichrist spirit. John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. In the beginning (before anything) was Jesus, and Jesus was with God the Father and Jesus is God the Father. John 14:9 Jesus said unto him, “Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, ‘Show us the Father’?
You are actually the one walking in the spirit of anti-christ "Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the "flesh/as a man" is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus (having come in the flesh as a man) is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.
At 44:22, Dr Tuggy gives a homework assignment regarding the meaning of the word mystery in the NT. Please know that your assignment has been done by Jeff Deuble in his wonderful book, Christ Before Creeds. Chapter 3.
Mystery in the bible denotes something not yet known. Mystery in Trinitarian theology means something that can never be known. In other words, it is a contradiction.
1:32:15 James White publicly confesses that his doctrinal conclusions that he is willing to divide over, and impugn the true faith of others with.... comes from human inference....Wow!, just like Dale said
Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. (Exodus 6:3) Acts 3:13 says Jesus is the servant of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Not the same being.
Firstly, the term παῖδα used in greek can also be translated as child, not always as servant. But even if servant meaning was intended, it may be ok, as long as we are speaking of Jesus till his baptism, for the spirit of Son of God wasn't in him before that. This is in accord with apperance of the voice from heaven: "This is my Son...", that occurs right after the baptism.
At first I thought it was a dirty move of Dr. White, but then I had a buddy of mine propose a charitable explanation. Dr. White simply got lost. He did another debate two days before, which can be mentally exhausting.
@@johnpaulsmajda People do this all the time where they criticize their opponent for not rebutting before the rebuttal. I've seen many Trinitarians and Calvinists make this claim. People like Anthony Rogers.
Or perhaps he meant that since he is the affirmative on the topic, the burden is on his interlocutor. Maybe saying that Tuggy didn't address any of the things that white has written about on the topic, or any pre agreed scriptures?
Love how dr white quotes rev 5 but completely ignored the fact that Jesus had to earn his worthiness through his sacrifice. God would never need to earn it
@@taylorsmobilecarvehicleval6272 John 17:3 New King James Version 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. This verse does not prove that the Father is the only true God. Here's the reasons why: Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son. 1) Jesus is praying for his disciples who are Jews. Born as Jews, growing up as Jews and having the Old Testament as their Scriptures; they definitely believed and knew all their life that the Father is the only true God. Jesus does not need to pray for them to know the Father as the only true God.
@@taylorsmobilecarvehicleval6272 Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son. 2) Jesus did not put a period (.) after true God.
@@taylorsmobilecarvehicleval6272 Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son. 3) Jesus used the word "and" even including himself.
Dr. White what ever you say it's like a puzzle you are connecting with story you talk a lot which nobody understand. . Yes you are reading the bible but you understand with your own conclusion. Which is not true. You are a false prophet.
Agree, even though i am not sure Mr Ignatius actually stated that Jesus is YHWH or believed that Jesus is the second person in trinity and Holy Ghost is the 3rd person in the trinity...Even if he did, if his writings are from 110AD, then that is long enough after Christ and apostles for falsities to creep in...even 5 or 10 years after is too long...
@@ManlyServant Personally, i don't trust anyone's writings after the new testament...especially anything after 100 AD...i think we all know it dont take a long time at all to have false doctrines creeping in...even the New Testament asserts false teachings while the apostles were still alive...the trinity is a contrived farcical joke, that requires magik to believe
Oh, sort out 'being" and "persons" 🤔. Really? Childlike faith can understand a 'Father-Son' relationship ... don't complicate it with some Greek philosophy of a Trinity.
yes. I commented on this on the original stream post, but it's now unlisted. So I'll repeat it here. The so called "early christians" that White cites are changing Philippians 2 to say what they want it to say. They say Jesus "took on human nature" while the scripture says Jesus took on the form of a servant. So who is it again that has to twist scripture to fit their theology? Certainly not Unitarians.
@@Bibliotechno I'm going to guess that what @kerryweinholz1731 was implying or trying to say is that unitarians base our beliefs on scripture, not what some "early christians" believed. I added that those "early christians" are changing the scripture (Philippians 2) to fit their beliefs, just like most "orthodox" people did back then. Bart Ehrman points out in "Misquoting Jesus" that is was more frequently the "orthodox" christians who altered the scriptures than their opponents. In any case, White's argument still doesn't prove that Jesus is YHWH. There were plenty of early christians who claimed Jesus was a second god underneath God almighty. Mainstream apologists don't want the laypeople knowing this history. They cherry pick quotes that say "Jesus is God" but hide all the quotes that say Jesus is still subordinate to God the Father.
@@Bibliotechno What James White quoted was a mis-quoted or defiled version of Philippians, so no, it's not scripture. You see, what he quoted is what trinitarians THINK Philippians 2 says. But that verse doesn't actually say that. They have to change the Bible to fit their beliefs...
Yaweh is One. Lord Jesus came forth from the Father (John 8:42) and the Holy Spirit came forth from the Father(John 15:26) Jesus is the Word from the beginning that became flesh(man) (John 1:1 John 1:14)
YHWH is Satan. Jesus Christ never changes. How could he go from destroying cities, killing babies, sacrifices, genocide, etc. to nothing but love and life in the NT. Jesus/Father don't have power over death.
Where you sleeping during the entire debate? Tuggy set clear principles and explained the obvious intent of the authors of the gospels, while White relies on his presupposes belief
@@ManlyServant In my KJV bible Yahuah is not mentioned once. because I read in English. Jehovah wants his name glorified yet you want to listen to Jews who want you to use titles instead of names. You fear to use your own God's name, what denomination did this to you?
Airtight opening statement from Tuggy. James mustve felt helpless which is why he felt Tuggy was supposed to be giving a rebuttal on his opening. 😂 Tuggy surgically disarmed him for the rest of the debate.
ALL old church Fathers believes in trinity. I personally believe some people having these debates so they can sell their books and make $ lol. FIY dr James White knows his stuff been following his debates his is big defender of Christ keep up great work dr white 😊
I can tell you how we all got deceived and what the GOSPELS are telling us. I figured it out after I read Phillipians 2:9-10, Revelation 3:12, Revelation 21:7, I Peter 1:3, 1:23, James 1:18. The truth will set us free. Jeremiah 16:19-21( kjv) tells us the gentiles will be deceived until the day of affliction. That day has arrived and so has the outpouring of the spirit of TRUTH just as he promised. We were indeed deceived by a STRONG delusion that started with Rome. Romans 1:3-4 also blew my mind once the Father removed the veil from my blinded eyes to comprehend what its actually saying. Its been RIGHT THERE all along. Right under our noses.
I am totally blown away. I had read that. I don’t know how many times before until you brought it to my attention. That is an eye-opening scripture as to who Jesus Christ is. Declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness BY his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
@@cimmbasso Yes. Two other scriptures connect sonship with resurrection: Luke 20:35-36 & Romans chapter 8. Do you know what blew me away? When I learned that the Messiah in Old Testament prophecy is the son of YHWH. For instance, when YHWH promises David his descendant will reign in his stead, YHWH says, “I will be his father, and he will be my son.” (2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:13). Another example is the suffering servant prophecy in Isaiah 53:6, “YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” The servant is never confused with YHWH. Same thing in vs 10. Same thing in the famous messianic prophesy’s of Isaiah chapters 11, 48, 61. Same in Psalms 2 & 22. In other words, YHWH is always God the Father, and the Messiah always His son/servant. To me, this devastated the doctrine of the Trinity & modalism in one blow. The clarity is amazing.
the trinity is the emperor's new clothes of religion, you have to pretend it makes sense or no heaven for you. even religists say the only way to make it work is to use "special logic" (michael jones / inspiring philosophy. it's just another bit of god stupidity apologists have to cover up.
You just have to get to a point where you can't argue with nonsense. As soon as someone accepts oxymorons and can't see the problem, you have to disengage. When people use terms like 'god-man' and don't see the scriptural problem, you have to let God deal with them. There is no logic, rationality or sensibility to what it is they believe. When someone doesn't play by the rules of any game, what do you do? You stop playing with them because they just cannot be honest. Many ex trinitarians come to a unitarian understanding because the trinity has far too many problems and it takes far too much mental gymnastics to believe. I argue it takes more intellectual work and capacity, and actually requires the the believer to have a higher RAM storage because you have to juggle so much rubbish at the same time. Let's love James White as someone passionate for Jesus. We cannot help him, but I hope he will get a chance to know the truth, face to face with Christ when he returns.
White likes to play on the word 'philosophy' as a slur against Tuggy, but White is the one who follows the Greek philosophers who 'created' the Trinity. Check out its history. The Apostle Paul warned Gentiles of philosophers (Colossians 2:8).
@@marekfoolforchrist Depends on its foundation. Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."
YeHoVaH is almighty God alone - the only true God according to Yeshua. Yeshua himself is the anointed one, God’s redeemer, exalted to God’s right hand, given all authority, the Lord.
@@joelc-gc1hqlike this… 1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’ YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH. 2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either. 3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be. 4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do. 5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH 6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
@@joelc-gc1hqlike this… 1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’ YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH. 2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either. 3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be. 4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do. 5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH 6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
@@joelc-gc1hqlike this… 1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’ YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH. 2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either. 3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be. 4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do. 5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH 6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
@@joelc-gc1hq like this… 1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’ YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH. 2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either. 3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be. 4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do. 5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH 6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
James White and most Trinitarians ignore the clear words of Peter's rendering of God's gospel to the Jews in Acts...They assert that Kurios is the eternal identity of Jesus, while ignoring these clear words : "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified.” Not to mention YHWH speaking to the Messiah lord, in Psalm 110:1...clearly someone literally beside YHWH. We would have more respect, when it is confessed publicly that trinity doctrine is a doctrine of INFERENCE period....but...they go further and recklessly add trinity as an essential belief to God's true gospel....
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, THE HEAD OF THE CHRIST IS GOD. The line of SUBMISSION in the Christian Congregational arrangement is what Paul wrote about. If Jesus is YHWH, then we would have Jesus worshipping himself. Which would seem to be an ego problem. Jesus is, who all who come to know him, to be. John 1:34 And I have seen it, and I have given witness that this one IS THE SON OF GOD.”
James White's tone from the start seemed to be that of a scoffer or mocker. I heard him mostly put forth various trinitarian arguments but very little that was scriptural. Dale on the other hand kept very close to Biblical principles. So basically the trinitarian method is to bring forth the man made philosophical ideas that the catholic church was founded on in the 4th century. Good Job Dr. Tuggy.
James literally did Greek grammar comparison for his opening statement. The entire thing was a direct exegasis of particular psalms isiah and Hebrews. Just because you disagree with his position doesn't warrent a lie such as james used very little Scripture.
A few minutes after White says he prefers biblical terms he goes on to talk about "a perfect human nature" and "the second person of the Trinity." So actually no he doesn't prefer biblical terminology.
White recognizes that God gave us logic and expects us to use it when interpreting God's revelation. If human nature was corrupted by the curse of sin then prior to that corruption humans existed in an uncorrupted nature directly as the perfect God created them. Since the Bible declares that there is only one being of Yahweh and yet three persons are called Yahweh in the Bible we can reasonably discuss the first, second, and third persons in common order of Father, Son, and Spirit.
@@pr073u569 YHWH is Satan. Jesus Christ never changes. How could he go from destroying cities, killing babies, sacrifices, genocide, etc. to nothing but love and life in the NT. Jesus/Father don't have power over death.
@@pr073u569 There is only one YAHWEH creator of all according to the Bible and it is illogical and unBiblical to claim there is three YAHWEH's. Yes, we are to interpret the Bible, but not according to our own methods and standards. We are to interpret the Bible according to the Biblical Method...which you don't even know because your interpretations cause conflict with the Bible...and like White, you can't even see it or acknowledge it.
@@DartNoobo Entities might not be the best descriptor. There are three whos contained in one what. One being consisting of three persons. Jesus is the eternal Word became flesh who was God while also being with God from John 1:1-14. Jesus repeatedly claims to be the I AM referred to by Moses which is why the Jews want to stone Him for blasphemy. The inspired author in Hebrews 1:8 claims that Jesus the Son is being referred to in Psalm 45:6-7. Peter certainly considered the Holy Spirit to be interchangeable with Yahweh God in Acts 5:3-4.
This could hardly be called a debate. Every argument made against the trinity is just a refusal to understand what the trinity actually is. And Dr White was so quick in his masterclass of a response.
Trinitarians themselves disagree on what the Trinity is, and have published many alternative theories. Dr. Tuggy has published extensively on different definitions of the Trinity that trinitarians propose. You might be interested in his article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on the topic: plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/
Tuggy’s questions about “is the Trinity a god” and “is the Father a god” are to draw out the contradictions within White’s view. If there is one God… the Trinity would be it… right? But then that would mean the Father is not a God, just a part of one, or some other heresy.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance The problem you have is that logically it doesn't work in your mind, the scripture has to trump our 'logic' and it's clear
@@johnygoodwin3441 yeah... Actually satan is God. The snake goes into the garden of eden. Yeah, it goes against your logic, but you have to believe that the snake is God. You really think God gave us reason so we would throw it away? Doesn't it sound dangerous? Wouldn't it be exactly what satan want you to do?
Dale Tuggy lose the debate! 1. He didn't always follow the rules. 2. He asked wrong question. 3. He often borrows the answers from someone else. 4. Using human nature or human life of Jesus to oppress His deity is very old and weak argument.
So James White says, "That's exactly what we need to see in the next 10 minutes." And then Tuggy comes along and does exactly that! It is difficult for me to express how significant that is!!!
If Jesus was God he would've never been exalted because God is the highest being in the universe, God can't be exalted by anyone, but Jesus was, you can only exalt an inferior being, for all the trinitarians ideas of Jesus having a human nature, this exaltation occurred in heaven, therefore Jesus human nature is out the window, and the Bible says that God put everything under his feet (Jesus's) and that when it says everything it's with the exception of the one who put everything under his feet, meaning God, who could possibly exalt God? And to what level? Nobody, Jesus was because he's not and never was the almighty!
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance if that immortal being chooses to become a human then yes he can certainly die. Jesus never ceased to exist when he died.
@@JosueRamirezBarraza Death is a cessation of all bodily functions, including the brain. That means a total loss of consciousness. Jesus died, which means this definition applied to him, just like it does to all mankind. That made him like us, a mortal man. And then only afterwards was he exalted to an immortal state, as he is now.
John tells you the entire thesis of his book in John 20:30-31. WHY won't you let the author tell you the entire intent of his writing? How would Dr White feel if people came away from reading his book with an entire incorrect understanding of his writing?
@@Fassnight Sir....It makes no difference what YOU think that John is saying in John 1. You are reading it from a Western perspective not a Hebrew perspective. No matter what YOU think. The person that wrote the book of John told you his thesis. Jesus is Messiah...That's the message he is trying to get placed in your thick skull.
@@richardtarr8145 This prophecy would also work if God implanted Mary with Josephs DNA. Just like he took the rib of Adam to create Eve. Do you think Mary and Joseph went around lying to everyone about Jesus? Lie to their Rabbi? Saying Jesus was their son but he really wasn't?
There is the very confusing and incoherent idea of the Trinity in total display. All that philosophy and latin and greek names that are created around that wrong doctrine is what intellectuals like to talk about but there is not a tiny piece of truth in what they believe. Jesus was clear, the apostles were clear, the Old Testament is clear, YHWH is the Father and Almighty creator of heaven and earth, no one else. That is what the Bible teaches in Matthew 16:16, John 17:3, John 20:17, 1 Timothy 2:5, Ephesians 4:4-6, Acts 2:22-37.
@@fcastellanos57 what you did right there is highly disrespectful. You disregarded the context of the passage and went straight into your eisegesis. I asked you that question assuming you knew the passage but clearly not. I recommend you go back and read the passage carefully with eyes to see and ears to hear and then come back and let me know if you have come to the same conclusion. Don’t google it, don’t talk to anyone just read it for yourself and come back here.
James White forgot what part of the debate they were in at 52:02. Tuggy doesn’t have to rebut White’s opening statement in Tuggy‘s own opening statement. Then, White in his rebuttal session proceeded to Not rebut any of the nine points Tuggy made in Tuggy’s opening statement.
Yep. Because he doesn't actually care what his opponent says. He only cares about picking certain points that he think he can criticize. He's not honest.
@@TavishCaryMusic that's trinty for you. I've seen this before. They just say something like I don't have to explain I'll just leave it at that and you should study and do your own homework. Mean while there is gaps in their arguments that you can even park a car in
Dale Tuggy is a trained philosopher, White is not and debates well only with those who don’t identify as Christian. When debating those who identify as Christian, he operates with a presumption of Sola Scripture and his special dictionary of Calvinism. I don’t doubt that JW believes what he does sincerely or that he is trying to win souls, but he almost totally lacks grace with other Christians not called Michael Brown. And wow he is a total ass to Leighton Flowers.
White appeared less patient than he normally does, and he also let Tuggy get under his skin. White's eye-rolling, grimacing, head-shaking and shrugs looked very unprofessional. Truth speaks for itself. It doesn't need to be augmented by jr. high antics. In the past, it was Tuggy who engaged in such gymnastics, but for the most part, he was very controlled. White also mischaracterized Tuggy's opening as if it were a rebuttal. That was almost bizarre since White is well aware that rebuttal comes after the opening. Tuggy also wasn't arguing philosophy over scripture, as White mistakenly asserted. As much as I disagree with Tuggy, he presented a biblical argument. This was not White's best effort by a longshot, and I'm not a Unitarian.
Yeah, wasn't that bizarre, i.e. White accusing Dr. Tuggy of not addressing anything of White's opening statement, within Tuggy's opening statement??? That would've been the sentiment of an amateur? Either way, Dr. White was right off the rails: felt no need to qualify any of his proof text (all his outrageous claims were taken for granted), his logic was completely backwards - if your conclusion makes no sense, you don't 'just accept it', but you rather go back to the exegetical drawing board until you can make sense. I thought that White was disgraceful, verging on deceitful
@@chanano1689 Yes, that was Tuggy's biggest weakness. He couldn't resist arguing with White at cross. If he's going to engage in more debates, he needs some attorney friends to help him to learn the art of arguing the point by questions. Good attorneys are masters at arguing through a witness.
God in the Old Testament I AM (Exodus 3:14-15; Isaiah 48:12) The Shepherd (Psalm 23:1) The Light (Psalm 27:1) The Rock (Psalm 18:2) Ruler of all (Isaiah 9:6) Judge of all nations (Joel 3:12) The Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16) God’s Word never passes away (Isaiah 40:8) The Sower (Jeremiah 31:27; Ezra 34:9) First and the Last (Isaiah 48:12) Jesus’ Reference to Himself I AM (John 8:58) The Shepherd (John 10:11) The Light (John 8:12) The Rock (Matthew 7:24) Ruler of all (Matthew 28:18) Judge of all (John 5:22) The Bridegroom (Matthew 25:1) Jesus’ words never pass away (Mark 13:31) The Sower (Matthew 13:3-9) First and the Last (Revelation 1:17-18)
As God's Messianic agent, the things said of God can be said about Jesus. Except for "I am." Jesus did not claim he was God by saying "ego eimi." If you are interested in truth, look into it further.
@WilliamStrain-th4xw "The Septuagint translates the “I am that I am” of Exodus 3:14 as “ego eimi ho on.” Ego eimi is simply the “be verb” and not a name or an identity. God said “I am (ego eimi) ho on.” Thus, ho on is God’s name, not ego eimi. Scholars admit that ho on is difficult to translate, but it roughly means the self-existing one. So in Exodus 3:14 God said, “I am (ego eimi) the Self-Existing One (ho on). If Jesus had wanted to say he was God in John 8:58, he simply could have said, “I am (ego eimi) that I am (ho on),” or “I am (ego eimi) the Self Existing One (ho on).” But he didn’t. He simply said, “before Abraham was born, I am the one” or “I am the Christ ” or “I am the Son of Man.”
YHWH is Satan. Jesus Christ never changes. How could he go from destroying cities, killing babies, sacrifices, genocide, etc. to nothing but love and life in the NT. Jesus/Father don't have power over death.
@@LoveAndLiberty02hilarious. The man gave you 10/10 claims of Yahweh in the OT that Jesus took for Himself in the NT. And your rebuttal is, “well, Jesus didn’t finish completely the I AM statement.” Ha. Astounding. And what exactly was the significance of Jesus stating, “before Abraham was, I AM,” that made the Pharisees pick up stones to stone Him?
not a single time Lord Jesus is referred by his followers as our father,he is our brother,both in flesh (because his flesh isnt as old as adam) and spirit (he was the first creation of God according to revelation and firstborn of all creation according to paul)
Dr White the fundamental presuppostion isn't that God could not become man, because God can do anything he wants to do, this is what it means to be omnipotent. The presupposition is that God did not become man. Scripture in part or indeed, in whole supports this, not a hypostatic God-man theory. And you also say that if Jesus was a creature then he couldn't give himself in your place. How so? What part of bible is that at? Where does it say that Jesus has to be divine in order for his sacrifice to be acceptable?
You never believed it at first anyways. Because nobody who believed in the Trinity before watching the debate will ever change his mind. The Bible clearly states that God is in three persons
@@God_Has_CommonsenseThat idea is totally untrue. The Jews, even Jesus as a Jew, never believed in the Holy Spirit as a person. Jesus acknowledged that the Jews have the correct view of the true God and his worship (John 4;22-29). Also, all of the many visions of God on his throne do not speak of three persons. The greetings in the NT also speak only of Jehovah and Jesus. Rev 14;1 describes heaven having two key characters; Jehovah on the throne, and the Lamb. Hebrews chapters 5 through 10 speak of the spiritual Christian Temple, with only Jehovah in the “most holy” compartment… and Jesus as the high priest acting between God and man. A mediator cannot be one of the primary characters, nor said to be a ‘witness’ legally, or ‘loyal’ or ‘obedient’.
@@Jesus_1029 The real losers are the ones who don’t recognise the true God; they hide Him behind Jesus who is actually the “mediator”. 1 Tim 2;5 The truth is very simple, that the Most High God is singular (‘El’), and that the Christ is WITH God and is his ‘Son’, not his brother or twin.
White insults the Shema and every Jew and Jesus ... and that makes me cringe! Jesus affirmed the Shema in its traditional Jewish understanding (that has had labelled Judaism as 'monotheism') (Mark 12:29,32).
John 10:33 They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus clearly claimed to be God. This can’t be any clearer. Son of God title means Jesus is the exact representation of Yahweh, He is the revelation of God. That’s why Jesus says “you have seen me so you have seen the Father” (John 14:9). The Son of Man title is an Old Testament prophecy of God becoming human. This title is only applied to Yahweh because He is God incarnate.
Don’t stop reading at John 10:33… what does Jesus say in the next verses? He says he isn’t God, and is using a title even lower than when previous kings and judges were called “gods”, the title “son OF God”.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance he never once says He isn’t God. In fact He says the opposite, He claims equality with the Father and that’s why they tried to kill Him. Read prior to the verse. After the quoted verse Jesus points out why are they uncomfortable with the term god if it was in the law. So that when the Son of God who is sent by the Father and does His works they shouldn’t be surprised. He again doubles down saying Him and the Father are one, claiming equality with God and says if you don’t believe me then believe the works. The Son of God title is not a lesser being. The Sonship title applied to Jesus as I already mentioned is that He is the exact representation of God. He is the invisible God now incarnate and revealed. The Father testifies on His behalf through the good works and prophecies that foretell of Him. Jesus constantly says this through the gospels. Jesus tells the Jews in John 8:58 before Abraham was “I AM” applying the very name of God to Himself. Again in Mark 14:61-63 “But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him and *said to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”” Really no confusion here. Jesus has three major encounters with the priests and each time He claims to be God, equal to God, and will sit on the throne. The passages are clear and don’t need interpreting, their reaction is enough to tell us what’s going on. They literally understood Him saying He is God, equal to God and will sit on the throne. He doesn’t correct them. Now it’s clear, so either Jesus is crazy and we’re both wrong, or you’ve been denying the Christ for who He is and you’re wrong. The most important question Jesus asked Peter, who do you say I am? Knowing Jesus is having eternal life so we need to get that question right.
My goodness, how is this so hard to see for so many???.....Yeshua over and over and over again talks about praying and going to HIS FATHER!!!...Paul begins so many of his letters with "God our Father AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (YESHUA)......It always comes down to a few passages misinterpreted.....actually, to worship Yeshua is to break the Command to Not have any other God's before him. Doing so commits sin
It must be because so called church leaders have gaslit and coerced laypeople into this way of thinking for so long, that they are now convinced that their eyes and ears and intuition cannot be trusted. I think ego, tradition, and not wanting to be wrong keeps it afloat. Idk.
But calling Jesus as Lord commiting idolatry since he isn't God according to you? 🤔🤔 Since you actually overlooked some verses too. Jesus said He is the Lord of sabbath. If that's the case, according to O. T. it is God who made sabbath as per Genesis after 6 day creation. Irony that you missed obvious details.
@@NCSiebertdesign Lord of the Sabbath doesn't equate to "Creator of the Sabbath." Mark 2:27-28 (ESV) The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath." Compare these: "The Sabbath was made for man...So the Son of Man created the Sabbath." (what I think you are saying) VS. "The Sabbath was made for man...So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath." (what Jesus said) The second one is a logical construction, if the Sabbath serves man, than naturally, the Son of Man (the promised, ideal man) would be over it, or master of it. It's why David, too, was able to eat on the Sabbath. It's about man's relation to the Sabbath, not about who created it.
@@markcain1550 you're missing the point. When God created the sabbath, He's the one that set rules about sabbath and no man or any creatures in heaven or on earth, other than Jesus has the authority over it, why because He is God. Also: Hebrews 1 10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the work of Your hands. (NKJV) clearly indicates Jesus as God (with the Father and the Holy Spirit) is the creator who created sabbath and is the Lord over it.
Great debate. I completely disagree with Tuggy but I really respected how organized he was and prepared he was. Not a fan of posting silly pictures in his slides as it gets away from the point and appeals to emotion, but that's a minor complaint. I felt White easily won this but Tuggy seems like a thoughtful man.
@@timothyvenable3336 Neither was jesus He was sent to do the fathers will He didn't do his own will Jesus said I can do nothing on my own and does what father tells him to do Does almighty God Jehovah does someone else will?
@@AstariahJW have you read Philippians chapter 2? Being the very essence of God, set aside his divinity and took on humanity. He temporarily set aside his divine attributes like knowing the future and subjected himself to death… how do you get around that?
In short: Accept James White's god-man theory and believe Jesus is YAHWEH, or you need to study more and you are not saved (sarcasm). OR, Apply the common sense God gave you to the plain texts of the Bible and you arrive at the truth which is precisely what Dale Tuggy's position is....THE TRUTH.
@@dannymcmullan9375 Too many distinctions in the Bible saying God the father and son of God 2 different people a father cannot be a son and a son cannot be A. Father to himself. The father and I are 1 means 1 in the same purpose not one as the same person.
@andreleao_ RSV, DARBY, NET all say "blood of his own [son]." Which makes WAY more sense than God giving his own blood. God didn't bleed and die on the cross. Jesus, the man did.
Matthew 16:16-17 kjv- And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my (Father) which is in heaven. Luke 22:42 kjv- Saying, (Father), if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done. (King Yeshua submits to Yahweh) Acts 7:55 kjv- But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, (King Yeshua & The Father Yahweh) This argument is old and a waste of time! Plenty of scriptures that call Jesus / Yeshua the Son. I only posted 3. Believe what thou will, but Im not waisting 2hrs to hear anyone argue against what scripture clearly says. I cant wait to see the look on folks when they see King Yeshua and The Father Yahweh (Ancient of Days), in the Kingdom. 😂😂😂.
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. we see the nature of the Word which is God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt with us, we see the nature of the flesh or temple in which the Word dwells and therefore in Him all the fullness of the Divinity is bodily.
@@Jiujitsushan first nature is the nature of the Word of God the second nature is the nature of the flesh or temple The eternal united with the temporary, the immortal with the mortal. One eternal Word having two natures. Own and perceived in time. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
I think he just wants everyone on the right side. When we die it is too late to recant what we believed in our hearts. Dr. Tuggy was a Trinitarian for most of his life, and then unfortunately fell away. It’s sad to see that someone who knew the truth in their hearts and then suddenly have a ‘new truth’. The Triune God couldn’t have been so outrageous as so many others have had this realization through interpretation of the Biblical texts. I watched the pastor of my church (for almost 25 years) walk away to start preaching a false gospel and claiming it to be truth. The devil doesn’t attack people who are far away from God because there is no reason to as they are already lost. He attacks people who are reaching for God and striving to have a close relationship with Him. I think Dr. Tuggy let his guard down at some point in his life and the devil deceived him. I don’t see Dr. White being intentionally condescending in any way. He’s passionate about what he knows and believes in his heart. In a perfect world, we all unite under Our Lord and spend eternity in Paradise 🙏✝️✡️ Ask for God to reveal the truth to our hearts. God Bless.
It always amazes me how one can read through the entire New Testament and not come to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Tuggy claims that the clear passages that attests to Christ’s deity are the “difficult” ones to interpret. He just happens to claim that about every single passage which clearly teaches the deity of Christ. This is a distortion of the truth. I can call easy-to-interpret passages “difficult” or “obscure” as well, but that does not make it so. Don’t let Tuggy fool you: The passages that point to Christ’s deity are unmistakably clear, and they are not obscure, as Tuggy would have you believe. If Jesus is not divine, then worshiping him would be idolatrous. Where in Scripture are we ever told to worship a created being? Answer: Nowhere. In fact, we are warned not to worship anything that is created (Deuteronomy 4). Scripture tells us to worship God and him ALONE. If Jesus is not God (as Unitarians claim), then he does not deserve to be worshiped, and worshiping him would be sinful. If Unitarianism is true, then a created being deserves to be worshiped on the same level-and in the same manner- as God the Father. This is patent idolatry! The only reason why Jesus is deserving of our worship is because he is God himself and not just a glorified man.
Sweet!......This sounds way much better, thanks for the work put into this!
Brilliant effort!
Thanks for hanging tight while we pulled it together, and let’s go share this!
th-cam.com/video/Vbhy4cL8xZU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=bLPga1KZhHvxDXib
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance Is there a way to get a PERFECT transcript of this? I have been studying this subject for YEARS in light of man being created Spirit, Soul & Body. Thanks for ANY help in obtaining this transcript.
I can sense Dr White's frustration. Tuggy was not only giving his commentary during cross-examination which he wasn't supposed to do, but also introduced a different topic in his opening remark rather than engage with the affirmative. If the debate topic was "Jesus: Only a Man" then Tuggy's opening would have been appropriate. Instead White had to do both affirm and deny, and it makes it harder for the audience to follow. I have watched numerous debates and I have seen Muslims do the same thing.
Dr. Tuggy has apologized for the comments during cross ex.
But as far as his opening, he didn’t do anything inappropriate in describing his view which is counter to White’s affirmation of the debate prompt. Tuggy went beyond simply responding “no”, and on to “and this is what is better”.
In debate parlance, it’s called a “competitive advantage” case. Nothing wrong with it at all.
1:32:55 his attitude and tone of voice show everything. This is why I haven't liked James White since the first time I watched a few of his videos. He is completely insincere and arrogant. All he can do is use garbage arguments (which Dale refuted with trinitarian citations), and use lots of rhetoric to try to sway the audience. He doesn't care about the unitarian ways of interpreting the scripture. He's just another guy with his head in the sand that keeps telling his laypeople to avoid any unitarian content because it's "stupid/bogus/dangerous". Well guess what James White, it doesn't matter how much you and all of the other trinity doctrine salesmen try their best to suppress the truth. Anyone who actually seeks the truth will find it. I have tuned into the "core christianity" radio show a handful of times. They are being bombarded with questions and problems about the trinity. One caller said that she was unable to argue against a unitarian because they had such good biblical arguments. Adriel Sanchez simply went on a BS rant about how unitarians are cultists and cited the same BS "prooftexts" that most IGNORANT apologists use. I tried asking them a hard question about why Dr Fred Sanders said that the doctrine of the trinity wasn't revealed in the Bible. They never answered me. That's really telling...
Praise God! I’m a Trinitarian.
Dr White did a great job.
Dr. White did an outstanding job.
Of course he is an intellectual , and he is still wrong
As a former Trinitarian, I thank God for our wonderful brothers and sisters in the UCA and the work they are accomplishing.
I pray more will turn away from the false and man-made Doctrine of the Trinity.
The Only True God is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
😢you're still way off. Jehovah is God almighty and Jesus is the Son
@donnykobana5209
Wake up, Donny, the church is deceived!
Listen to Jesus!
John 20:17
"Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Jesus is not Lord, maybe lord as in master or teacher
@koroglurustem1722
If you believe that the title "Lord" means "God Almighty," then no, Jesus is not God Almighty.
God is Jesus's Father, alone.
However, a "Lord" is a title of a ruler.
And God made Jesus our Lord.
Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ"
Jesus has been raised by God and exalted to God's right hand as "Lord of all creation";
"far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come"
Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Subject ONLY to God Almighty.
(1 Corinthians 15:27-28)
Lastly, Romans 10:9 says
"If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Jesus is Lord, and his Father; God,
raised him from the dead
Do you agree, my friend?
@koroglurustem1722
If you believe that the title "Lord" means "God Almighty," then no, Jesus is not God Almighty.
God is Jesus's Father, alone.
However, a "Lord" is a title of a ruler.
And God made Jesus our Lord.
Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ"
Jesus has been raised by God and exalted to God's right hand as "Lord of all creation"; "far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come"
Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Subject ONLY to God Almighty.
(1 Corinthians 15:27-28)
Lastly, Romans 10:9 says "If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
Tuggy says," A contradictory interpretation of scripture means that you need to go back to the drawingboard, and do better." Exactly true!! And there is no proposition known to man that is more self-contradictory than the doctrine of the Trinity.
If Jesus is just a man how did he exist with the father before the world was created???
@@joelc-gc1hq Nobody has said that Jesus was just a man, he is the Christ, our king. 1 Corinthians 8:4-6, 1 Corithians 15:24-28.
@@marksimpson4215 did Jesus pre exist before the world was created with the father?
@@joelc-gc1hq As the word, not as Jesus.
@@marksimpson4215 did Jesus say the glory I had with you( referring to the father).he did not say (as you) but with you. Did Jesus humbled himself to enter into flesh( creation)? Answer is clearly yes( Philippians chapter 2 verses 5,6,7).He(Jesus) did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage.Jesus in his consideration showed his own consciousness.
Well done brother Dale! Reinforced why I left trinitarianism.
You left for a false gospel. Nice
@@dualtags4486 Thank you for your input. Your opinion has been noted.
@dualtags4486
And what false gospel would that be? Are you claiming that the scriptures state that we must believe in a triune being or we don't believe the gospel? I'll wait for you to provide that verse from the scriptures.
False. The Bible nowhere states he is antichrist that denies Jesus is God, or that he is a two natured being that is part of a triune being.
The scriptures state he is antichrist that denies Jesus is the Christ, that he is come in the flesh, ie, a real man, because it was common in those days for pagans to believe in "god/men" that weren't human beings. I would be careful if I were you, calling someone an antichrist that the Bible does not.
@@Yce_Take Your opinion and lack of verse has been noted.
@V_George wrote: "You left trinitarianism and hence deny that Jesus is God because of the spirit of Antichrist"
I loved Tuggy's quick philosophy lesson to open. Appeal to the common sense people forget they possess.
It’s not about not having common sense, it’s about what the Bible says
@@timothyvenable3336which actually is the most common sense thing to do👍🏻
@@fruitsnacks155and when you do it, you see the trinity.
@@KnightFel absolutely!
The Unitarian arguments are very convincing… at most trinitarians can show Jesus was thought as divine , but the idea that the holy spirit and Jesus are all Yahweh is not in the text.
It absolutely is. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God... AND Scripture teaches there is One God. The conclusion? Father, Son, Holy Spirit are three distinct person's: One God.
There is one Most High God, the one true God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:20), who is the Father of Jesus.
The triune god is not the one true God and is not the Father of Jesus. There is one Lord (1 Cor. 8:6), Jesus the Messiah, who is the Son of God, begotten in the womb of Mary. Arguably he is called theos in Hebrews 1:8, which is derived from Psalm 45:6 - a reference to the Davidic king (elohim), unless the alternate translation is true - God is your throne, or your throne is God's. The spirit is God. God's personal presence. But not a third "self."
God, the Son of God, the spirit of God. But no triune being.
So you believe in 2 or 3 gods? Make it make sense.
This is not the Trinitarian position. To anyone who is a Unitarian or convinced by this Unitarian talking point, I urge you to actually read the Nicene Fathers and a basic text like Fr John Behr's Nicene Theology/Way to Nicea series. I would highly recommend listening to Dr Beau Branson's talks, as he addresses Tuggy specifically, and his dissertation, "The Logical Problem of the Trinity," specifically calls out Tuggy.
The basic Trinitarian position outlined at Nicea and Constantinople I is that there is one God, the Father, who communicates his divinity to his Son, who is his Wisdom and Power (per the New Testament). The Holy Spirit is likewise understood to be of the same nature as the Father, because he shares in the same Divine Activity that is proper only to Divinity (cf Gregory of Nyssa Ad Ablabius). The theology of "One Divinity" is only preserved, according to Gregory Nazianzus, if one refers back to a "single principle," which is universally identified as the Father. The Son and Spirit both derive their Divinity from the Father, who is their source, or "arche". This is called Monarchical Trinitarianism, and is the predominant view of those who penned the Nicene Creed and presided over the council of Constantinople.
Take your time to actually understand this doctrine. History is complex, and this naive protestant presupposition inherited in Unitarianism that "we just look at the text!" is exactly what leads to endless and eternal schisms and separations.
@pj1683 You have provided the perfect example of what has actually caused so many problems. Rather than going to the text seeking understanding from God, you instead would have people to accept as truth the creeds and writings of others who have attempted to explain the text just as other people have. Those people are just men too.... just like the ones you seem to be criticizing. Nothing you said comes from scripture....only a strand of tradition.
The answer is: of course not. What an absurd proposition
I stand to Dale Tuggy. He is more credible
He is not more credible. He just interprets the man-made bible better and more accurate. That foes not make the bible true.
I think Dr Dale Tuggy won this debate by presenting his arguement better, however, one aspect that seems to be clear to me is that Jesus did preexist prior coming as a man.
1:23:12 No writer of the Bible says that YHWH is the combination of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Therefore the "triune god" is NOT a "biblical revelation." White's statement is just false.
1:25:20 White just admitted that "god the son's" incarnation made him not have all "god" features"/"powers". So why is it that 99% of trinitarians claim that Jesus proved he was "god" by doing miracles and having "divine knowledge"??? Contradictory statements/beliefs. "God the son" somehow "gave up being god" but at the same time still is "god." Nonsense. It doesn't even agree with other trinitarians.
1:27:25 and here is the complete undermining of the "penal substitution" atonement theory. White admits that it was only the "human nature" that "died" on the cross. 99% of mainstream christians claim that the only way our sins could be "paid for" is if "God died." James White said that God did not die - Just like Michael Brown. Therefore 99% of christians must conclude that their sins have not been "paid for" since God did not actually die.
right, that last one of yours is a massive nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. "Only an infinite God could die to atone for infinite sins!" combined with "it wasn't God who died, it was His human nature!" Um.........
And that is why Jesus is God, becuase he is God. He took on humanity, became the second Adam a sinless righteous one who though tempted, overcame that temptation and layed down his life. Becuase he was 100% man. However in no way have I destroyed his 100% God. Which is what Jesus does in forgiving sins and claiming to be God: transfiguration, rising from the dead, healings, receiving worship, etc.
How do deny diety of Christ in the context of Philippians 2:6 “.. though He was in THE FORM of God, did not count EQAULITY with God and thing to be grasped, but emptied himself…”.
How do you willingly give up divinity you don’t already possess?
@@Barefootseal_66 1) The translation and meaning of this verse is the most controversial out of everything in the NT (according to what I've heard). 2) you are making an equivocation between "in the form of God" and "God" (ontologically) 3) Because of #2, most trinitarians then make the equivocation between "took the form of a servant" and "took on human nature". That is what many trinitarians do. They must read in-between the lines or change the words of scripture. "becoming a man" or "taking on human nature" is totally not in the same category as "taking the form of a servant." The comparison between the former and later in the verse would be apples-to-oranges, as they say.
4) I believe when it says "in the form of God" it is likely referring to either Jesus' lordship or his sinlesness or both. Jesus has been exalted by God to God's right hand and has been made Lord. He is ruling the world on behalf of God as he has been appointed. Instead of acting like the king of the world, he instead washed his disciples' feet. He also was sinless, therefore being like God. The pharisees acted like they were perfect and treated everyone else like peons. Instead of being like the Pharisees, Jesus didn't use his piousness to look down on others.
@@scotthix2926 I would believe that if it was in the Bible.
Dale's conduct in the question and answer was awful, not following rules, making petty comments.
He wanted to frame James with words and when he saw he couldn't do it he got mad 😂😂😂
Other than that, in his opening statement he quoted scripture that clearly identifies Jesus as God but conveniently left those verses out.
Jesus will come in glory as Yahweh and all knees will bow to him, he will judge, he is the one that searches the mind and hearts (only Yahweh can do that), he is the one that wounds (only Yahweh does that) he is the one that holds the keys of death in his his hand and again according to scripture only Yahweh can do that.
Thank you for posting the improved version. Trinitarians have sunk to a new all-time low. Having literally left nothing unique for God our Father. Even His Holy Name (YHWH) has been taken away and given to Jesus. This is so unfortunate 😔
Jesus is God. The scriptures, as well as the earliest Christian testimony, make that clear🙂
@@gaiusoctavius5935the god he was with or the god that was with him
@@xxxViceroyxxx God the Son was with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit before the creation of anything. It's that simple.
@@gaiusoctavius5935but arent you inserting those individuations? jo 1:1 just says god, not father
@@xxxViceroyxxx The Bible distinguishes between God the Father and God the Son for us; without understanding this distinction, one can easily fall into Modalism.
Biblical Unitarians put God YHVH in His rightful place as Creator (Revelation 4), and Jesus in his rightful place as the human Messiah and Lamb (albeit now resurrected and exalted) (Revelation 5:1-12). One God, and one Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6).
No, you don't, because you ignore every Bible passage that reveals the true nature of God and of Jesus. Why are you only able to accept some truths but not all of them?
@@King_Conan I have found more coherency, logic, and simplicity in Scripture for the past 14 years since leaving my lifetime of Trinitarian churches at 58. I still love God and his son Jesus passionately. We have a responsibility to love God with all our mind ... so keep checking out what others say (Acts 17:11) and let the Scriptures speak for themselves.
@@kerryweinholz1731 Was the Trinity always problematic for you?
How do you respond to John 8:58 Jesus said to them before Abraham was I am
@@joelc-gc1hq And then they picked up stones to throw at Him. Jesus made a provocative statement, and they knew what He was saying.
1:12:15. Cross examination
1:22:20
what people think dale tugy won😂😂😂😂
Yeah, he cooked his opponent. Gave many things I could use in my ministry to help people to better reason on the one true living God and escape the mind shackles of the Trinitarian lie.
fanboy
@@aerolfordpaguntalan7529 Um, kinda?
@@GrzlyBeard not you, him. 😅
@@aerolfordpaguntalan7529 Oop, my bad. Bless 👊🏾
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
"God was manifest in the flesh"
"The Word was made flesh" Jn 1:14
"The Word was God" Jn 1:1
Wow Dr White's answers are weak
Had the same observation
Like which ones
I am a Muslim and was just listening to a Unitarian vs. Trinitarian debate. I felt compelled to write when Dr. White mentioned Muslims and his debates with them. From a Muslim perspective, Jesus was a messenger of God who never feared and never asked his disciples to worship him. Instead, he always preached about the existence of one God.
Furthermore, he explained to the Jewish children of his time that if he could call himself the Son of God without blasphemy, then so could they consider themselves children of God. He was emphasizing that his use of "Son of God" was metaphorical, just as they metaphorically called themselves children of God. Thus, we should not misinterpret his words to mean that he claimed divinity.
God is beyond human relationships like father, mother, or child, and exists without being created. Anything created by Him or anyone else cannot be God. If I have offended anyone with my words, I sincerely apologize. I do not intend to start any debates on this forum.
@@LeadersMirrorPeople
Jesus claimed to be one with the father
Be with the father from the beginning
Claimed to be the son of God in reference to Daniel chapter 7 - a chapter specifically about worship to God.
Received worship as God
Claimed to be the ‘I am’ in reference to Exodus where God identifies himself as Yahweh the ‘I am’
Mohammed was not a messenger from God, but a liar.
He claims to be present in the Bible but is found nowhere.
The understanding of Dr White is wrong. Jesus is not the creature.God created all things through him. And for him. There's only one creator God the Father . Don't twist that Dr White .
Jesus is not a creature, and all things were created through him, you say? Ok.. well If Jesus is “not” created then he’s eternal. He “is” as the father “is.” The only uncreated one is Yahweh. Therefore Jesus must be Yahweh. Fulfilling John 1:1. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD.
@@danielsingh9701 Read the Greek
Check this out, obviously the Temple was the temple of Jehovah. The expression "House of Jehovah," "Jehovah’s House" is found 246 times in the OT. Classical Trinitarianism teaches that Jesus is not God the Father.
YET here Jesus, who they believe is Jehovah, is cleansing the temple of "his Father," Zeal for YOUR house has eaten me up, not "MY house." We see that in John 2:16, 17. Compare Luke 2:49. Obviously his Father is Jehovah.
Jehovah is the Father. Exodus 4:22; Deuteronomy 32:6; Isaiah 63:16; 64:8)
Jehovah is "the Most High" Psalms 83:18. Jesus is "the son of the Most High." Luke 1:32 Jesus must then be the "Son of the Father" 2 John 3 "the Son of Jehovah."
Jehovah is a man made name. It's YAHWEH that is given as the name of God to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15
Furthermore, God said to Moses, “Tell the children of Israel this: ‘I am the one who is [ego eimi ho on] Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered, my memorial to all generations.
~ Moses, Exodus 3:14-15.
"I am YAHWEH, that is my name." Isaiah 42:8
The truth has been established by two witnesses. Believe it or perish.
@@johnspartan98 What Bible translation are you quoting from?
@@NickHawaii It depends on the verse and whether the translators provided a Biblically compatible translation or not. In cases where the correct Greek grammar results in a translation that conflicts with other plain and obvious verses, then it cannot be relied upon.
I use John 1:14 as a good example. Myself, and a few others have, independent of each other, translated John 1:14 as:
"and the word came to humanity and dwelt in us...etc...etc."
Why?
1. Because the word of YAHWEH is his possession, not a person.
2. Because the word of YAHWEH never became anyone, and it is still His word.
3. Jesus said the words he spoke BELONGED to his Father and they were not his own words.
4. Because "sarx egennato" can also be translated as "came to humanity" (the human kind of flesh).
5. Because "en himen" is properly translated as "IN US"
6. Because the OT promises the word and spirit will be in people.
7. Because if the word is not in a person, then neither is the spirit, and that means they are not saved.
8. Because the Hellenistic Jew named Philo and Plato are behind the logos theory that resulted in the traditional translation of John 1:14....which is wrong!
9. The traditional translation of John 1:14 is packed with Gnosticism and Mysticism. My translation is not.
I could go on and on. I have written extensively on John's prologue and my defence of my translation requires a book or a series of about a dozen posts, each one stretching the text limit for a post.
Bottom line: My translation does not conflict with a single Biblical doctrine, and in fact brings them all together under one light....the light of the word and spirit. The traditional translation cannot meet that standard. It mocks the word of YAHWEH by contradicting it. Deuteronomy 18:18 is a good example. YAHWEH never said He would make His word become a flesh man named Jesus or anyone else.
@@johnspartan98 So can you quote Exodus 3:14-15 from a translation you like? Thanks.
@@NickHawaii The translation I prefer for Exodus 3:14-15 comes from the LXX.
JOHN 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15
PART 1 Did Jesus say "I am God?
The use of uppercase letters when translating "ego eimi" in John 8:58 and "ego eimi ho on" in Exodus 3:14, is deceptive and misleads people to think Jesus is YHWH.
The Greek expression, "ego eimi" is never used as a name for YAHWEH, Jesus, or anyone.
The Greek in Exodus 3:14 reads "ego eimi ho on"
"ego eimi" translates (I am)
"ho on" translates (the one who is)."
There is no connection between "ego eimi" in John 8:58 and "ego eimi ho on" in Exodus 3:14-15.
Furthermore, God said to Moses, “Tell the children of Israel this: ‘I am the one who is [ego eimi ho on] Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered, my memorial to all generations.
~ Moses, Exodus 3:14-15.
"I am YAHWEH, that is my name." Isaiah 42:8
The truth has been established by two witnesses. Believe it or perish.
People also need to be aware that the verse numbers are not in the original Hebrew, they are added. There is no sentence breaks either. Therefore, it is improper to break up verses 14 and 15 in Exodus 3.
They must be read together as one statement.
Reading Exodus 3:14 and claiming the Greek expression "ego eimi ho on" is the same as "ego eimi" in John 8:58 does an injustice to the word of YHWH.
The 70 plus Hebrew scholars that translated the Hebrew texts into Greek (LXX) chose to translate "EHYEH ASHER EHYEH" as "ego eimi ho on" which translates to English as "I am the one who is"
The next verse tells us that the "WHO" is "YAHWEH."
Should we ignore the 70 or more Hebrew scholars who all agreed to the above translation?
Jesus NEVER EVER says I am YHWH. Jesus tells us his Father is greater then he is, and greater than ALL.
In John 8:58 Jesus was declaring himself to be the Messiah who was prophesied to come before Abraham existed. He was not declaring himself to be God.
CONTEXT is needed to understand this final declaration by Jesus that comes at the end of a long conversation.
The Greek expression is "ego eimi." This expression is not a name for anyone.
JOHN 4:
25 The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he (ego eimi).” [the Messiah].
JOHN 7:
28 So Jesus cried out while teaching in the temple, saying, “You both know me, and know where I am from. And I have not come on my own, but he who sent me is true, whom you do not know.
29 I know him because I am from him, and he sent me.”
31 But many of the multitude believed in him, and they said, “When the Christ [Messiah] comes, will he do more signs than those that this man has done?”
[It's a rhetorical question with an obvious answer. Jesus is the Messiah and there is no other like him].
JOHN 8:
18. I am one who testifies about myself, and the Father who sent me testifies about me.” [proof Jesus is not the Father YHWH].
19. Therefore they said to him, “Where is your Father?” Jesus answered, “You know neither me, nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
[people who think Jesus is YHWH do not know Jesus or the Father. They worship a god of foolish men's own making].
24. That is why I said to you that you will die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am the one, you will die in your sins.”
[I am the one, meaning the Messiah, the one who was prophesied to come before Abraham existed]. The Bible is quite clear on this fact. Deuteronomy 18:18; Genesis 3:15
25. So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. [this is a no brainer. Jesus declared himself to be the Messiah from the beginning and he proved it by fulfilling prophecy and doing miracles].
28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one. And I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things.
[again, proving Jesus is not YHWH. People who think Jesus is YHWH, know nothing of the Father or the Son. They are delusional. YHWH has not revealed Himself or His Son to them. They Follow a Jesus of their own making].
42. Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and am here; for I have not come on my own, but he sent me. [Jesus is not YHWH....proof text].
43. Why do you not understand what I am saying? Because you are not able to hear my word. [People who willfully believe Jesus is YHWH are not able to hear the words of Jesus, they are spiritually dead and willfully ignorant].
44. You are of your father the Devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar, and the father of them.
45. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me.
46. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe me?
47. The one who is of God hears the words of God. The reason you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
54. Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’
55. And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I were to say, ‘I do not know him,’ then I would be like you: a liar. But I know him, and keep his word.
56. Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see my day, and he saw it, and rejoiced.” REV Bible Translation gets it right.
["saw" means KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the prophecies concerning Jesus coming]
57. Therefore, the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
[they misunderstood Jesus words].
58. Before Abraham existed, I am ("he"), or, ("the one").
WHO? The one Jesus declared himself to be from the beginning (John 4:25-26; John 7:28-31; John 8:18-19-24-25-28; John 8:42-47).
Jesus said he is the Messiah who was prophesied to come.
Jesus is not YHWH. He never said he was YHWH.
That is the evidence.
That is the CONTEXT.
END OF PART 1
Part 2 deals more directly with John 8:58.
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
John 17:3 KJV - And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Who is the only God on both verses?
1 Corinthians 8:6
New King James Version
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
This verse does not prove the Father is the only God.
At first you might think it is, until you read the whole bible.
From this verse, it is clear that:
ALL THINGS ARE FROM THE FATHER
ALL THINGS ARE THROUGH THE SON
But the question is:
CAN ALL THINGS BE "THROUGH GOD?"
Romans 11:33-36
New King James Version
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of➡️God! ⬅️How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and➡️THROUGH HIM⬅️and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
John 17:3
New King James Version
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
This verse does not prove that the Father is the only true God. Here's the reasons why:
Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son.
1) Jesus is praying for his disciples who are Jews. Born as Jews, growing up as Jews and having the Old Testament as their Scriptures; they definitely believed and knew all their life that the Father is the only true God. Jesus does not need to pray for them to know the Father as the only true God.
Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son.
2) Jesus did not put a period (.) after true God.
Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son.
3) Jesus used the word "and" even including himself.
when you have slides for your rebuttal, it means you don’t wanna deal with the actual arguments made by your opponent in their opening statement.
The speakers exchanged opening statements, which means they both prepared their rebuttals beforehand.
Note that Dr. Tuggy did respond point by point to Dr. Whites opening statement, while Dr. White did not respond to Dr. Tuggy’s opening statement.
White’s complaint was projection, it was actually he that failed to engage.
If Jesus is the son of YHVH why does he refute YHVH 6 times in Matthew 5? And call the jews father “the devil” in John 8:44?
I'm not a Calvinist, but when I watch debates like this, I can't help but believe that Calvinism must be true.
That response makes no sense. Whateryou sayen, that you were born contradicten yourself or what bub?
Sanctify Christ as "Lord"....White is conflating the usage of Lord with the almighty God. Most of the translations won't say Christ as Lord??? The only ones I noticed are KJV and New KJV. Clear misleading statement.
What Dale Tuggy has said are all based on theory and not on the Word of God. What he and Bart Erhman need is revelation knowledge from the Holy Spirit, without the help and revelation of the Spirit of God they will never know the True God of the Bible.
So you're saying we should ignore the data we have, and the clear verses (and their apparent meanings), and trust a voice that everyone and every church claim to have, even though they differ? isn't a bit dogmatic?
I think it is hilarious that Doctor White expected Doctor Tuggy to respond to his opening statement in his own opening statement. Doctor White makes himself look like an ignoramous at that point and never recovered from that colossal error!
Tuggy's "Biden" example was spot on in terms of how the words "all" and "every" are used. Not just in the Bible, but in everyday language. In other words, they must be qualified. I would think this would be obvious, but it is a window into the mind of James White, and let's us know why he misinterprets the bible where these terms are used all the time. For example: Mark 1:5 KJV - "And there went out unto him ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."
Does anyone think that everybody to a man in Jerusalem and Judea, came down and got baptized by John the Baptist ?? All means "all" !!
Or does it? Obviously, the word "all" in this scripture, and in virtually every scripture that is used, has to be qualified. It's so sad that James White can not see that.
Yet to defend his Calvinism he will say: "All" means less than everyone without exception.
@jeffreytrinidad3564
I believe everything the Bible says. If you are a Trinitarian, I do not believe your interpretation of the Bible.
I'm really confused why James White didn't rebut Tuggy's position in his rebuttal time. It's as if he just zoned out and went into speech mode because he didn't engage with the text Tuggy presented. I lean towards Trinity but White's argument was wholly inadequate. As conscientious Christians, we must go with the most sound and coherent argument. In this case that's the Unitarian argument.
Indeed! Why didn’t White respond to Tuggy’s case?
Agreed 👍
Excellent opening Tuggy , praise God for truth debunking popular mainstream theology
Jesus is God and any spirit that says otherwise is an antichrist spirit.
John 1:1-3 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
In the beginning (before anything) was Jesus, and Jesus was with God the Father and Jesus is God the Father.
John 14:9 Jesus said unto him, “Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, ‘Show us the Father’?
You are actually the one walking in the spirit of anti-christ
"Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the "flesh/as a man" is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus (having come in the flesh as a man) is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.
At 44:22, Dr Tuggy gives a homework assignment regarding the meaning of the word mystery in the NT. Please know that your assignment has been done by Jeff Deuble in his wonderful book, Christ Before Creeds. Chapter 3.
Mystery in the bible denotes something not yet known. Mystery in Trinitarian theology means something that can never be known. In other words, it is a contradiction.
Every mystery in the Bible was something not yet revealed until it was revealed. Every single one. That is the reason it was a mystery. @chanano1689
1:32:15 James White publicly confesses that his doctrinal conclusions that he is willing to divide over, and impugn the true faith of others with.... comes from human inference....Wow!, just like Dale said
Jehovah is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. (Exodus 6:3) Acts 3:13 says Jesus is the servant of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Not the same being.
Firstly, the term παῖδα used in greek can also be translated as child, not always as servant. But even if servant meaning was intended, it may be ok, as long as we are speaking of Jesus till his baptism, for the spirit of Son of God wasn't in him before that. This is in accord with apperance of the voice from heaven: "This is my Son...", that occurs right after the baptism.
Prove to me that Father is the only God.
Why do people feel that the 2nd opening need to address the 1st opening? That's what rebuttals is for
At first I thought it was a dirty move of Dr. White, but then I had a buddy of mine propose a charitable explanation. Dr. White simply got lost. He did another debate two days before, which can be mentally exhausting.
@@johnpaulsmajda People do this all the time where they criticize their opponent for not rebutting before the rebuttal. I've seen many Trinitarians and Calvinists make this claim. People like Anthony Rogers.
Or perhaps he meant that since he is the affirmative on the topic, the burden is on his interlocutor. Maybe saying that Tuggy didn't address any of the things that white has written about on the topic, or any pre agreed scriptures?
th-cam.com/video/Vbhy4cL8xZU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=bLPga1KZhHvxDXib
That’s exactly what I was thinking
TUGGY needs to completely abandon the horific lies he is teaching 😮
Tuggy got cooked and still posted it on his channel .. respect Lol
Excellent Dale!!!! Thank You.
Love how dr white quotes rev 5 but completely ignored the fact that Jesus had to earn his worthiness through his sacrifice. God would never need to earn it
Prove to me that God is only the Father.
@@jeffreytrinidad3564 the burden of proof is on you making the claim that he isn’t
@@taylorsmobilecarvehicleval6272
John 17:3
New King James Version
3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
This verse does not prove that the Father is the only true God. Here's the reasons why:
Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son.
1) Jesus is praying for his disciples who are Jews. Born as Jews, growing up as Jews and having the Old Testament as their Scriptures; they definitely believed and knew all their life that the Father is the only true God. Jesus does not need to pray for them to know the Father as the only true God.
@@taylorsmobilecarvehicleval6272
Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son.
2) Jesus did not put a period (.) after true God.
@@taylorsmobilecarvehicleval6272
Reasons why John 17:3 is not only the Father, but the Father and the Son.
3) Jesus used the word "and" even including himself.
Dr. White what ever you say it's like a puzzle you are connecting with story you talk a lot which nobody understand. . Yes you are reading the bible but you understand with your own conclusion. Which is not true. You are a false prophet.
Dale Tuggy you really need to go back to Sunday school 😂
and be indoctrinated to believe a non-sensical doctrine? glad he wasn't like you have been
Ignatius and someone else cannot override the plain Scripture! Sorry, Mr White.
Agree, even though i am not sure Mr Ignatius actually stated that Jesus is YHWH or believed that Jesus is the second person in trinity and Holy Ghost is the 3rd person in the trinity...Even if he did, if his writings are from 110AD, then that is long enough after Christ and apostles for falsities to creep in...even 5 or 10 years after is too long...
ignatius also says roman catholic church is true,i wonder if james white will believe that too,ignatius letter is just so fake
@@ManlyServant Personally, i don't trust anyone's writings after the new testament...especially anything after 100 AD...i think we all know it dont take a long time at all to have false doctrines creeping in...even the New Testament asserts false teachings while the apostles were still alive...the trinity is a contrived farcical joke, that requires magik to believe
Oh, sort out 'being" and "persons" 🤔. Really? Childlike faith can understand a 'Father-Son' relationship ... don't complicate it with some Greek philosophy of a Trinity.
JESUS IS NOT GOD
SIMPLE TRUTH CAN NOT BE GRASPED AND UNDERSTOOD WHEN THE DEVIL INSPIREs YOU...
"A hymn of the early church" isn't Scripture.
yes. I commented on this on the original stream post, but it's now unlisted. So I'll repeat it here. The so called "early christians" that White cites are changing Philippians 2 to say what they want it to say. They say Jesus "took on human nature" while the scripture says Jesus took on the form of a servant. So who is it again that has to twist scripture to fit their theology? Certainly not Unitarians.
If you don't regard Book of Philippians as scripture, why do you bother?
@@Bibliotechno I'm going to guess that what @kerryweinholz1731 was implying or trying to say is that unitarians base our beliefs on scripture, not what some "early christians" believed. I added that those "early christians" are changing the scripture (Philippians 2) to fit their beliefs, just like most "orthodox" people did back then. Bart Ehrman points out in "Misquoting Jesus" that is was more frequently the "orthodox" christians who altered the scriptures than their opponents.
In any case, White's argument still doesn't prove that Jesus is YHWH. There were plenty of early christians who claimed Jesus was a second god underneath God almighty. Mainstream apologists don't want the laypeople knowing this history. They cherry pick quotes that say "Jesus is God" but hide all the quotes that say Jesus is still subordinate to God the Father.
@@Bibliotechno What James White quoted was a mis-quoted or defiled version of Philippians, so no, it's not scripture. You see, what he quoted is what trinitarians THINK Philippians 2 says. But that verse doesn't actually say that. They have to change the Bible to fit their beliefs...
@@brandonr4452 this confuses me even more at times as to which Bible version is actually accurate.
Yaweh is One. Lord Jesus came forth from the Father (John 8:42) and the Holy Spirit came forth from the Father(John 15:26)
Jesus is the Word from the beginning that became flesh(man)
(John 1:1 John 1:14)
And the word WAS GOD. ALL THINGS were made through him, and without him was not ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE. Jesus is the eternal uncreated God.
Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus or the Apostles ever refer to Jesus as the word. That's a man made doctrine.
YHWH is Satan. Jesus Christ never changes. How could he go from destroying cities, killing babies, sacrifices, genocide, etc. to nothing but love and life in the NT. Jesus/Father don't have power over death.
Tuggy knocked him through the ropes!
What are you smoking?
@@johnygoodwin3441 that is a Crooked Beard maduro from Zeal Cigars. That is my favorite place to buy cigars online.
@@johnygoodwin3441 unless you mean I am high from thinking that Tuggy whooped White's you-know-what...?
@@ronnier5349 Lol, not at all, unless you give credibility to Col 1 talking about a new creation - do you?
I want to say it does. I thought that for a minute. But I think it means Genesis 1 up until even now.
Dale Tuggy clearly lost to James White.
James White clearly lost to Dale Tuggy.
Where you sleeping during the entire debate? Tuggy set clear principles and explained the obvious intent of the authors of the gospels, while White relies on his presupposes belief
Imagine thinking of the sovereign ruler of the universe has an only Begotten son………. and he’s not divine
Dr tuggy doesnt believe in the incarnation lol. What does he do with all of John 1. And the word became flesh!!
If you’d actually like an answer to your question:
th-cam.com/video/nb4TogqyTrw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=8Pml1hTqzSR4QD3I
YHWH is the Tetragrammaton in Hebrew. Jehovah is God's name in English! God is a mere Title shared by many! People, People, People!
its actually Yahuah not Jehovah or Yehowah or Yehuwah or Yahweh but Yahuah,be careful using the name
@@ManlyServant In my KJV bible Yahuah is not mentioned once. because I read in English. Jehovah wants his name glorified yet you want to listen to Jews who want you to use titles instead of names. You fear to use your own God's name, what denomination did this to you?
@@marksimpson4215 kjv isnt infallible
@@ManlyServant See, now we are getting somewhere. Which Bible is better? I can only read English. Are all Bibles fallible?
Airtight opening statement from Tuggy. James mustve felt helpless which is why he felt Tuggy was supposed to be giving a rebuttal on his opening. 😂 Tuggy surgically disarmed him for the rest of the debate.
you are delusional
ALL old church Fathers believes in trinity. I personally believe some people having these debates so they can sell their books and make $ lol. FIY dr James White knows his stuff been following his debates his is big defender of Christ keep up great work dr white 😊
I can tell you how we all got deceived and what the
GOSPELS are telling us. I figured it out after I read Phillipians 2:9-10, Revelation 3:12, Revelation 21:7, I Peter 1:3, 1:23, James 1:18.
The truth will set us free.
Jeremiah 16:19-21( kjv) tells us the gentiles will be deceived until the day of affliction. That day has arrived and so has the outpouring of the spirit of TRUTH just as he promised. We were indeed deceived by a STRONG delusion that started with Rome. Romans 1:3-4 also blew my mind once the Father removed the veil from my blinded eyes to comprehend what its actually saying. Its been RIGHT THERE all along. Right under our noses.
I had the same experience with Romans 1:1-4
I am totally blown away. I had read that. I don’t know how many times before until you brought it to my attention. That is an eye-opening scripture as to who Jesus Christ is. Declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness BY his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
@@cimmbasso
Yes! Now go read Acts 13:33, where Paul again makes the same connection citing the coronation Psalm 2:7
@@Mikha335 I’m blown away. Thank you for sharing this with me! Are there any other resources that you would recommend?
@@cimmbasso
Yes. Two other scriptures connect sonship with resurrection: Luke 20:35-36 & Romans chapter 8.
Do you know what blew me away? When I learned that the Messiah in Old Testament prophecy is the son of YHWH. For instance, when YHWH promises David his descendant will reign in his stead, YHWH says, “I will be his father, and he will be my son.” (2 Samuel 7:14; 1 Chronicles 17:13). Another example is the suffering servant prophecy in Isaiah 53:6, “YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” The servant is never confused with YHWH. Same thing in vs 10. Same thing in the famous messianic prophesy’s of Isaiah chapters 11, 48, 61. Same in Psalms 2 & 22. In other words, YHWH is always God the Father, and the Messiah always His son/servant. To me, this devastated the doctrine of the Trinity & modalism in one blow. The clarity is amazing.
Isn't it the JOB of High Priest to atone for sin? I thought that was one of the High Priest's main jobs.
Ohhhh that's a good point. That brings more depth to Pauls writings, and also Hebrews.
Amen
the trinity is the emperor's new clothes of religion, you have to pretend it makes sense or no heaven for you.
even religists say the only way to make it work is to use "special logic" (michael jones / inspiring philosophy.
it's just another bit of god stupidity apologists have to cover up.
You just have to get to a point where you can't argue with nonsense.
As soon as someone accepts oxymorons and can't see the problem, you have to disengage. When people use terms like 'god-man' and don't see the scriptural problem, you have to let God deal with them. There is no logic, rationality or sensibility to what it is they believe. When someone doesn't play by the rules of any game, what do you do? You stop playing with them because they just cannot be honest.
Many ex trinitarians come to a unitarian understanding because the trinity has far too many problems and it takes far too much mental gymnastics to believe. I argue it takes more intellectual work and capacity, and actually requires the the believer to have a higher RAM storage because you have to juggle so much rubbish at the same time.
Let's love James White as someone passionate for Jesus. We cannot help him, but I hope he will get a chance to know the truth, face to face with Christ when he returns.
White likes to play on the word 'philosophy' as a slur against Tuggy, but White is the one who follows the Greek philosophers who 'created' the Trinity. Check out its history. The Apostle Paul warned Gentiles of philosophers (Colossians 2:8).
Proverbs 29:3
He who loves wisdom makes his father glad
“φιλοῦντος σοφίαν”
“Philountos sophian”
Philosophy is Biblical.
@@marekfoolforchrist Depends on its foundation. Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."
How do you respond to John 8:58 Jesus said before Abraham was ,I am
@@marekfoolforchristhow do you respond to John 8:58 Jesus said to them before Abraham was I am
@joelc-gc1hq its still a man saying it..maybe it is in reference to the deity of Abraham..perhaps the spirit of Christ?
YeHoVaH is almighty God alone - the only true God according to Yeshua.
Yeshua himself is the anointed one, God’s redeemer, exalted to God’s right hand, given all authority, the Lord.
How do you respond to John 8:58 Jesus said before Abraham was I am
@@joelc-gc1hqlike this…
1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’
YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH.
2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either.
3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be.
4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do.
5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH
6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
@@joelc-gc1hqlike this…
1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’
YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH.
2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either.
3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be.
4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do.
5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH
6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
@@joelc-gc1hqlike this…
1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’
YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH.
2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either.
3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be.
4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do.
5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH
6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
@@joelc-gc1hq
like this…
1. The phrase-‘ergo emi’ is not the full phrase used by YeHoVaH in the old testament-it is ‘ergo emi hu on’
YeHoVaH says tell them ‘hu on’ sent you. And in the next verse reveals His name YeHoVaH.
2. Other people use the ergo emi (I am) phrase - they were not claiming to be God either.
3. The argument that the Pharasies ‘knew’ that Yeshua was stating that he is God is easily refuted by reading until the end of chapter 10 where the same men ‘did not’ know who Yeshua was claiming to be.
4. Singular verses taken out of context do not suffice as evidence, understanding context audiences and the full passage do.
5. Yeshua was actually stating in the context that he is the light of the world as he speaks and does the will of YeHoVaH
6. English translation obscures the meaning from the Greek - specifically Yeshua is saying before Abraham was - I was foreknown/pre-planned by YeHoVaH.
James White and most Trinitarians ignore the clear words of Peter's rendering of God's gospel to the Jews in Acts...They assert that Kurios is the eternal identity of Jesus, while ignoring these clear words : "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified.” Not to mention YHWH speaking to the Messiah lord, in Psalm 110:1...clearly someone literally beside YHWH. We would have more respect, when it is confessed publicly that trinity doctrine is a doctrine of INFERENCE period....but...they go further and recklessly add trinity as an essential belief to God's true gospel....
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, THE HEAD OF THE CHRIST IS GOD.
The line of SUBMISSION in the Christian Congregational arrangement is what Paul wrote about.
If Jesus is YHWH, then we would have Jesus worshipping himself. Which would seem to be an ego problem.
Jesus is, who all who come to know him, to be.
John 1:34 And I have seen it, and I have given witness that this one IS THE SON OF GOD.”
James White's tone from the start seemed to be that of a scoffer or mocker. I heard him mostly put forth various trinitarian arguments but very little that was scriptural. Dale on the other hand kept very close to Biblical principles.
So basically the trinitarian method is to bring forth the man made philosophical ideas that the catholic church was founded on in the 4th century. Good Job Dr. Tuggy.
James literally did Greek grammar comparison for his opening statement. The entire thing was a direct exegasis of particular psalms isiah and Hebrews. Just because you disagree with his position doesn't warrent a lie such as james used very little Scripture.
Maybe that’s your bias?
A few minutes after White says he prefers biblical terms he goes on to talk about "a perfect human nature" and "the second person of the Trinity."
So actually no he doesn't prefer biblical terminology.
White recognizes that God gave us logic and expects us to use it when interpreting God's revelation. If human nature was corrupted by the curse of sin then prior to that corruption humans existed in an uncorrupted nature directly as the perfect God created them. Since the Bible declares that there is only one being of Yahweh and yet three persons are called Yahweh in the Bible we can reasonably discuss the first, second, and third persons in common order of Father, Son, and Spirit.
@@pr073u569 YHWH is Satan. Jesus Christ never changes. How could he go from destroying cities, killing babies, sacrifices, genocide, etc. to nothing but love and life in the NT. Jesus/Father don't have power over death.
@@pr073u569eh, ok, demonstrate three distinct entities being called Yahweh in the Bible. Not Lord, not Master, nothing like that. Yahweh
@@pr073u569 There is only one YAHWEH creator of all according to the Bible and it is illogical and unBiblical to claim there is three YAHWEH's.
Yes, we are to interpret the Bible, but not according to our own methods and standards. We are to interpret the Bible according to the Biblical Method...which you don't even know because your interpretations cause conflict with the Bible...and like White, you can't even see it or acknowledge it.
@@DartNoobo Entities might not be the best descriptor. There are three whos contained in one what. One being consisting of three persons. Jesus is the eternal Word became flesh who was God while also being with God from John 1:1-14. Jesus repeatedly claims to be the I AM referred to by Moses which is why the Jews want to stone Him for blasphemy. The inspired author in Hebrews 1:8 claims that Jesus the Son is being referred to in Psalm 45:6-7.
Peter certainly considered the Holy Spirit to be interchangeable with Yahweh God in Acts 5:3-4.
Wheres the holy spirit sitting with the lamb and God ?
James white said thats the trinity there
Nicaea has blinded the eyes of so many.
This could hardly be called a debate. Every argument made against the trinity is just a refusal to understand what the trinity actually is. And Dr White was so quick in his masterclass of a response.
Trinitarians themselves disagree on what the Trinity is, and have published many alternative theories.
Dr. Tuggy has published extensively on different definitions of the Trinity that trinitarians propose. You might be interested in his article in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on the topic:
plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/
Tuggy’s questions about “is the Trinity a god” and “is the Father a god” are to draw out the contradictions within White’s view. If there is one God… the Trinity would be it… right? But then that would mean the Father is not a God, just a part of one, or some other heresy.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance The problem you have is that logically it doesn't work in your mind, the scripture has to trump our 'logic' and it's clear
@@johnygoodwin3441 yeah... Actually satan is God. The snake goes into the garden of eden.
Yeah, it goes against your logic, but you have to believe that the snake is God.
You really think God gave us reason so we would throw it away? Doesn't it sound dangerous? Wouldn't it be exactly what satan want you to do?
The actual "trinity doctrine" states there is 3 "PERSONS" and the scriptures refute that.
Dale Tuggy lose the debate! 1. He didn't always follow the rules. 2. He asked wrong question. 3. He often borrows the answers from someone else. 4. Using human nature or human life of Jesus to oppress His deity is very old and weak argument.
James....Hello.....We don't care what your "church fathers" said. They had the same bible as we do. We can read.
while we wait for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
So James White says, "That's exactly what we need to see in the next 10 minutes." And then Tuggy comes along and does exactly that! It is difficult for me to express how significant that is!!!
Awesome at what point is that so I can go reference
If Jesus was God he would've never been exalted because God is the highest being in the universe, God can't be exalted by anyone, but Jesus was, you can only exalt an inferior being, for all the trinitarians ideas of Jesus having a human nature, this exaltation occurred in heaven, therefore Jesus human nature is out the window, and the Bible says that God put everything under his feet (Jesus's) and that when it says everything it's with the exception of the one who put everything under his feet, meaning God, who could possibly exalt God? And to what level? Nobody, Jesus was because he's not and never was the almighty!
Pisses me off that tuggy pulls the God cannot die card. Nowhere in the bible does death to the body equal ceasing to exist.
Whatever it means to die, an immortal being can’t do it. Pick any definition of death you want, that’s what an immortal God can’t do.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance if that immortal being chooses to become a human then yes he can certainly die. Jesus never ceased to exist when he died.
@@JosueRamirezBarraza Death is a cessation of all bodily functions, including the brain. That means a total loss of consciousness. Jesus died, which means this definition applied to him, just like it does to all mankind. That made him like us, a mortal man. And then only afterwards was he exalted to an immortal state, as he is now.
John tells you the entire thesis of his book in John 20:30-31. WHY won't you let the author tell you the entire intent of his writing? How would Dr White feel if people came away from reading his book with an entire incorrect understanding of his writing?
Trinitarians have no problem with those verses. But Unitarians sure have a hard time with John 1:1-18
@@Fassnight Sir....It makes no difference what YOU think that John is saying in John 1. You are reading it from a Western perspective not a Hebrew perspective. No matter what YOU think. The person that wrote the book of John told you his thesis. Jesus is Messiah...That's the message he is trying to get placed in your thick skull.
@@Fassnight --- Please give a detailed explanation to the class of the mind-bending eisegesis you performed to prove John 1:1 is talking about Jesus?
@@richardtarr8145 This prophecy would also work if God implanted Mary with Josephs DNA. Just like he took the rib of Adam to create Eve. Do you think Mary and Joseph went around lying to everyone about Jesus? Lie to their Rabbi? Saying Jesus was their son but he really wasn't?
Nothing was written down during the time of Jesus. And no one knows who wrote the book of John. So ...how accurate are the Bible?
There is the very confusing and incoherent idea of the Trinity in total display. All that philosophy and latin and greek names that are created around that wrong doctrine is what intellectuals like to talk about but there is not a tiny piece of truth in what they believe. Jesus was clear, the apostles were clear, the Old Testament is clear, YHWH is the Father and Almighty creator of heaven and earth, no one else. That is what the Bible teaches in Matthew 16:16, John 17:3, John 20:17, 1 Timothy 2:5, Ephesians 4:4-6, Acts 2:22-37.
So when Jesus says “…before Abraham was I Am.” What does he mean by that?
@@TherapistComposer what he meant was that his coming was planned by the Almighty before the world began even before Abraham existed.
@@fcastellanos57 what you did right there is highly disrespectful. You disregarded the context of the passage and went straight into your eisegesis. I asked you that question assuming you knew the passage but clearly not. I recommend you go back and read the passage carefully with eyes to see and ears to hear and then come back and let me know if you have come to the same conclusion. Don’t google it, don’t talk to anyone just read it for yourself and come back here.
@@TherapistComposer that’s what Jesus meant, he began his life in Luke 1:26:35, read and believe, he never saw Abraham.
@@fcastellanos57 what do you think Jesus meant when he said in John 8 that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and he saw it and was glad in it?
James White forgot what part of the debate they were in at 52:02. Tuggy doesn’t have to rebut White’s opening statement in Tuggy‘s own opening statement.
Then, White in his rebuttal session proceeded to Not rebut any of the nine points Tuggy made in Tuggy’s opening statement.
Yeah, the irony is thick.
Yep. Because he doesn't actually care what his opponent says. He only cares about picking certain points that he think he can criticize. He's not honest.
@@TavishCaryMusic :)
@@TavishCaryMusic that's trinty for you. I've seen this before. They just say something like I don't have to explain I'll just leave it at that and you should study and do your own homework. Mean while there is gaps in their arguments that you can even park a car in
@@Yce_Take Are you asking me? If so, please clarify, how many Yahwehs do you think there are?
You will understand and embrace Trinity only if you look at it with a theological eye, not a philosophical eye.
I admire James White patience 👋, sticking to the rules.
What debate was that? Not this one.
Are you serious. That is the exact opposite of what James White did.
Dale Tuggy is a trained philosopher, White is not and debates well only with those who don’t identify as Christian. When debating those who identify as Christian, he operates with a presumption of Sola Scripture and his special dictionary of Calvinism. I don’t doubt that JW believes what he does sincerely or that he is trying to win souls, but he almost totally lacks grace with other Christians not called Michael Brown. And wow he is a total ass to Leighton Flowers.
White appeared less patient than he normally does, and he also let Tuggy get under his skin. White's eye-rolling, grimacing, head-shaking and shrugs looked very unprofessional. Truth speaks for itself. It doesn't need to be augmented by jr. high antics. In the past, it was Tuggy who engaged in such gymnastics, but for the most part, he was very controlled.
White also mischaracterized Tuggy's opening as if it were a rebuttal. That was almost bizarre since White is well aware that rebuttal comes after the opening. Tuggy also wasn't arguing philosophy over scripture, as White mistakenly asserted. As much as I disagree with Tuggy, he presented a biblical argument. This was not White's best effort by a longshot, and I'm not a Unitarian.
Yes. White was soundly beaten in the facts. But, his unchristian arrogant behavior is totally unacceptable!! It makes his side look bad, too.
Yeah White doesn't handle too well the kind of pressure Dale brought.
Yeah, wasn't that bizarre, i.e. White accusing Dr. Tuggy of not addressing anything of White's opening statement, within Tuggy's opening statement??? That would've been the sentiment of an amateur?
Either way, Dr. White was right off the rails: felt no need to qualify any of his proof text (all his outrageous claims were taken for granted), his logic was completely backwards - if your conclusion makes no sense, you don't 'just accept it', but you rather go back to the exegetical drawing board until you can make sense.
I thought that White was disgraceful, verging on deceitful
Agreed, because hes not used to being wrong which he is in this case, not to mention he celebrates pagan holidays like christmass
@@chanano1689 Yes, that was Tuggy's biggest weakness. He couldn't resist arguing with White at cross. If he's going to engage in more debates, he needs some attorney friends to help him to learn the art of arguing the point by questions. Good attorneys are masters at arguing through a witness.
God in the Old Testament
I AM (Exodus 3:14-15; Isaiah 48:12)
The Shepherd (Psalm 23:1)
The Light (Psalm 27:1)
The Rock (Psalm 18:2)
Ruler of all (Isaiah 9:6)
Judge of all nations (Joel 3:12)
The Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Hosea 2:16)
God’s Word never passes away (Isaiah 40:8)
The Sower (Jeremiah 31:27; Ezra 34:9)
First and the Last (Isaiah 48:12)
Jesus’ Reference to Himself
I AM (John 8:58)
The Shepherd (John 10:11)
The Light (John 8:12)
The Rock (Matthew 7:24)
Ruler of all (Matthew 28:18)
Judge of all (John 5:22)
The Bridegroom (Matthew 25:1)
Jesus’ words never pass away (Mark 13:31)
The Sower (Matthew 13:3-9)
First and the Last (Revelation 1:17-18)
As God's Messianic agent, the things said of God can be said about Jesus.
Except for "I am." Jesus did not claim he was God by saying "ego eimi." If you are interested in truth, look into it further.
That is not an argument! Compare Ex. 3:14, with John 8:58. Jesus meant EXACTLY THAT.@@LoveAndLiberty02
@WilliamStrain-th4xw "The Septuagint translates the “I am that I am” of Exodus 3:14 as “ego eimi ho on.” Ego eimi is simply the “be verb” and not a name or an identity. God said “I am (ego eimi) ho on.” Thus, ho on is God’s name, not ego eimi. Scholars admit that ho on is difficult to translate, but it roughly means the self-existing one. So in Exodus 3:14 God said, “I am (ego eimi) the Self-Existing One (ho on). If Jesus had wanted to say he was God in John 8:58, he simply could have said, “I am (ego eimi) that I am (ho on),” or “I am (ego eimi) the Self Existing One (ho on).” But he didn’t. He simply said, “before Abraham was born, I am the one” or “I am the Christ ” or “I am the Son of Man.”
YHWH is Satan. Jesus Christ never changes. How could he go from destroying cities, killing babies, sacrifices, genocide, etc. to nothing but love and life in the NT. Jesus/Father don't have power over death.
@@LoveAndLiberty02hilarious. The man gave you 10/10 claims of Yahweh in the OT that Jesus took for Himself in the NT. And your rebuttal is, “well, Jesus didn’t finish completely the I AM statement.”
Ha. Astounding. And what exactly was the significance of Jesus stating, “before Abraham was, I AM,” that made the Pharisees pick up stones to stone Him?
not a single time Lord Jesus is referred by his followers as our father,he is our brother,both in flesh (because his flesh isnt as old as adam) and spirit (he was the first creation of God according to revelation and firstborn of all creation according to paul)
Dr White the fundamental presuppostion isn't that God could not become man, because God can do anything he wants to do, this is what it means to be omnipotent. The presupposition is that God did not become man. Scripture in part or indeed, in whole supports this, not a hypostatic God-man theory. And you also say that if Jesus was a creature then he couldn't give himself in your place. How so? What part of bible is that at? Where does it say that Jesus has to be divine in order for his sacrifice to be acceptable?
After watching this debate I no longer believe in the trinity.
Wow! It’s encouraging to hear about people that study this sincerely, and change their mind!
If you use Facebook, you would be most welcome in the UCA Facebook group.
facebook.com/share/g/zD1ns4hNmB7Xw5b4/?mibextid=K35XfP
You never believed it at first anyways. Because nobody who believed in the Trinity before watching the debate will ever change his mind. The Bible clearly states that God is in three persons
@@God_Has_CommonsenseThat idea is totally untrue. The Jews, even Jesus as a Jew, never believed in the Holy Spirit as a person. Jesus acknowledged that the Jews have the correct view of the true God and his worship (John 4;22-29).
Also, all of the many visions of God on his throne do not speak of three persons.
The greetings in the NT also speak only of Jehovah and Jesus.
Rev 14;1 describes heaven having two key characters; Jehovah on the throne, and the Lamb.
Hebrews chapters 5 through 10 speak of the spiritual Christian Temple, with only Jehovah in the “most holy” compartment… and Jesus as the high priest acting between God and man. A mediator cannot be one of the primary characters, nor said to be a ‘witness’ legally, or ‘loyal’ or ‘obedient’.
@@Jesus_1029 The real losers are the ones who don’t recognise the true God; they hide Him behind Jesus who is actually the “mediator”. 1 Tim 2;5
The truth is very simple, that the Most High God is singular (‘El’), and that the Christ is WITH God and is his ‘Son’, not his brother or twin.
White insults the Shema and every Jew and Jesus ... and that makes me cringe! Jesus affirmed the Shema in its traditional Jewish understanding (that has had labelled Judaism as 'monotheism') (Mark 12:29,32).
John 17.3, John 20.17, Rev 1.5-6, Rev 3.12.
For a great assessment of this debate, see the podcast by William Barlow. White was completely defeated!
Give me verses where it says:
"Father is the only God"
John 10:33 They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus clearly claimed to be God. This can’t be any clearer. Son of God title means Jesus is the exact representation of Yahweh, He is the revelation of God. That’s why Jesus says “you have seen me so you have seen the Father” (John 14:9). The Son of Man title is an Old Testament prophecy of God becoming human. This title is only applied to Yahweh because He is God incarnate.
Don’t stop reading at John 10:33… what does Jesus say in the next verses? He says he isn’t God, and is using a title even lower than when previous kings and judges were called “gods”, the title “son OF God”.
@@UnitarianChristianAlliance he never once says He isn’t God. In fact He says the opposite, He claims equality with the Father and that’s why they tried to kill Him. Read prior to the verse. After the quoted verse Jesus points out why are they uncomfortable with the term god if it was in the law. So that when the Son of God who is sent by the Father and does His works they shouldn’t be surprised. He again doubles down saying Him and the Father are one, claiming equality with God and says if you don’t believe me then believe the works. The Son of God title is not a lesser being. The Sonship title applied to Jesus as I already mentioned is that He is the exact representation of God. He is the invisible God now incarnate and revealed. The Father testifies on His behalf through the good works and prophecies that foretell of Him. Jesus constantly says this through the gospels. Jesus tells the Jews in John 8:58 before Abraham was “I AM” applying the very name of God to Himself. Again in Mark 14:61-63 “But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him and *said to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”” Really no confusion here. Jesus has three major encounters with the priests and each time He claims to be God, equal to God, and will sit on the throne. The passages are clear and don’t need interpreting, their reaction is enough to tell us what’s going on. They literally understood Him saying He is God, equal to God and will sit on the throne. He doesn’t correct them. Now it’s clear, so either Jesus is crazy and we’re both wrong, or you’ve been denying the Christ for who He is and you’re wrong. The most important question Jesus asked Peter, who do you say I am? Knowing Jesus is having eternal life so we need to get that question right.
A correct translation is you although a man make yourself a god
My goodness, how is this so hard to see for so many???.....Yeshua over and over and over again talks about praying and going to HIS FATHER!!!...Paul begins so many of his letters with "God our Father AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST (YESHUA)......It always comes down to a few passages misinterpreted.....actually, to worship Yeshua is to break the Command to Not have any other God's before him. Doing so commits sin
It must be because so called church leaders have gaslit and coerced laypeople into this way of thinking for so long, that they are now convinced that their eyes and ears and intuition cannot be trusted. I think ego, tradition, and not wanting to be wrong keeps it afloat. Idk.
But calling Jesus as Lord commiting idolatry since he isn't God according to you? 🤔🤔 Since you actually overlooked some verses too. Jesus said He is the Lord of sabbath. If that's the case, according to O. T. it is God who made sabbath as per Genesis after 6 day creation. Irony that you missed obvious details.
@@NCSiebertdesign Lord of the Sabbath doesn't equate to "Creator of the Sabbath."
Mark 2:27-28 (ESV) The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath."
Compare these:
"The Sabbath was made for man...So the Son of Man created the Sabbath." (what I think you are saying)
VS.
"The Sabbath was made for man...So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath." (what Jesus said)
The second one is a logical construction, if the Sabbath serves man, than naturally, the Son of Man (the promised, ideal man) would be over it, or master of it. It's why David, too, was able to eat on the Sabbath. It's about man's relation to the Sabbath, not about who created it.
@@markcain1550 you're missing the point. When God created the sabbath, He's the one that set rules about sabbath and no man or any creatures in heaven or on earth, other than Jesus has the authority over it, why because He is God. Also: Hebrews 1
10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,And the heavens are the work of Your hands. (NKJV) clearly indicates Jesus as God (with the Father and the Holy Spirit) is the creator who created sabbath and is the Lord over it.
Not even close
If I could describe James White in one word it would be condescending.
Yes unless its Doug Wilson.
Two heterodox dudes debating the interpretation of Scripture. Waste of time!
Great debate. I completely disagree with Tuggy but I really respected how organized he was and prepared he was. Not a fan of posting silly pictures in his slides as it gets away from the point and appeals to emotion, but that's a minor complaint. I felt White easily won this but Tuggy seems like a thoughtful man.
It doesn't say acknowledge jesus as yehweh
It says acknowledge jesus as lord
You are correct… but it is a quote from the Old Testament that is referring explicitly to Yehweh, so the writer is saying Jesus is our Lord, Yehweh
@@timothyvenable3336
No not really
Many servants of Jehovah God were called lord
Doesn't mean they are all Jehovah
@@AstariahJW but none of those servants are regarded as being on the same level as God the Father, worthy of being lord of our hearts
@@timothyvenable3336
Neither was jesus
He was sent to do the fathers will
He didn't do his own will
Jesus said I can do nothing on my own and does what father tells him to do
Does almighty God Jehovah does someone else will?
@@AstariahJW have you read Philippians chapter 2? Being the very essence of God, set aside his divinity and took on humanity. He temporarily set aside his divine attributes like knowing the future and subjected himself to death… how do you get around that?
In short:
Accept James White's god-man theory and believe Jesus is YAHWEH, or you need to study more and you are not saved (sarcasm). OR, Apply the common sense God gave you to the plain texts of the Bible and you arrive at the truth which is precisely what Dale Tuggy's position is....THE TRUTH.
How do you respond to John 8:58 Jesus said to them before Abraham was I am
How do you respond to John 8:58 Jesus said to them before Abraham was I am
@@dannymcmullan9375 before Abraham was I am
Begotten Son. Thats not the father. God is not a man@@dannymcmullan9375
@@dannymcmullan9375 Too many distinctions in the Bible saying God the father and son of God 2 different people a father cannot be a son and a son cannot be A. Father to himself. The father and I are 1 means 1 in the same purpose not one as the same person.
"God is murdered"... Does James actually understand what he is parroting?😢
He has truly blinded himself 👀
Sacharija 12:10, Acts 20:28 and also Ignatius of Antioch (35-110 uses the Term the Blood of God
Blinded, confounded, and stupefied himself. Unfortunately, he hasn't dumbfounded himself.
@andreleao_ Acts 20:28 does not say "blood of God".
@@TavishCaryMusic what does it say in yours
@andreleao_ RSV, DARBY, NET all say "blood of his own [son]." Which makes WAY more sense than God giving his own blood. God didn't bleed and die on the cross. Jesus, the man did.
Matthew 16:16-17 kjv- And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my (Father) which is in heaven.
Luke 22:42 kjv- Saying, (Father), if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine be done. (King Yeshua submits to Yahweh)
Acts 7:55 kjv- But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, (King Yeshua & The Father Yahweh)
This argument is old and a waste of time! Plenty of scriptures that call Jesus / Yeshua the Son. I only posted 3. Believe what thou will, but Im not waisting 2hrs to hear anyone argue against what scripture clearly says. I cant wait to see the look on folks when they see King Yeshua and The Father Yahweh (Ancient of Days), in the Kingdom. 😂😂😂.
White: Scripture doesn’t talk of two natures for Jesus. Also no verse mentions "God is three persons" ... or three anything!
Scripture repeatedly speaks of the two natures of Christ
Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
But he spake of the temple of his body.
we see the nature of the Word which is God. And the Word became flesh and dwelt with us, we see the nature of the flesh or temple in which the Word dwells and therefore in Him all the fullness of the Divinity is bodily.
@@ivanipatov6559 So God was dwelling in God? Hmmm make a sense
@@Jiujitsushan no, God dwelt in the temple of the body of Christ.
@@Jiujitsushan
first nature is the nature of the Word of God
the second nature is the nature of the flesh or temple
The eternal united with the temporary, the immortal with the mortal. One eternal Word having two natures. Own and perceived in time.
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
It would be nice if James White could actually be cordial. It's a debate between 2 Christians. No one is "the enemy".
Unitarians are not Christians
you do understand that these people literally believe in a different God, there are no enemies as you say but they aren’t the same at all
Good point❤
I think he just wants everyone on the right side. When we die it is too late to recant what we believed in our hearts.
Dr. Tuggy was a Trinitarian for most of his life, and then unfortunately fell away. It’s sad to see that someone who knew the truth in their hearts and then suddenly have a ‘new truth’.
The Triune God couldn’t have been so outrageous as so many others have had this realization through interpretation of the Biblical texts.
I watched the pastor of my church (for almost 25 years) walk away to start preaching a false gospel and claiming it to be truth. The devil doesn’t attack people who are far away from God because there is no reason to as they are already lost. He attacks people who are reaching for God and striving to have a close relationship with Him.
I think Dr. Tuggy let his guard down at some point in his life and the devil deceived him.
I don’t see Dr. White being intentionally condescending in any way. He’s passionate about what he knows and believes in his heart. In a perfect world, we all unite under Our Lord and spend eternity in Paradise 🙏✝️✡️
Ask for God to reveal the truth to our hearts.
God Bless.
Tuggy is not a Christian. Anyone who denies Jesus is an anti-christ.
It always amazes me how one can read through the entire New Testament and not come to the conclusion that Jesus is God. Tuggy claims that the clear passages that attests to Christ’s deity are the “difficult” ones to interpret. He just happens to claim that about every single passage which clearly teaches the deity of Christ. This is a distortion of the truth. I can call easy-to-interpret passages “difficult” or “obscure” as well, but that does not make it so. Don’t let Tuggy fool you: The passages that point to Christ’s deity are unmistakably clear, and they are not obscure, as Tuggy would have you believe.
If Jesus is not divine, then worshiping him would be idolatrous. Where in Scripture are we ever told to worship a created being? Answer: Nowhere. In fact, we are warned not to worship anything that is created (Deuteronomy 4). Scripture tells us to worship God and him ALONE. If Jesus is not God (as Unitarians claim), then he does not deserve to be worshiped, and worshiping him would be sinful. If Unitarianism is true, then a created being deserves to be worshiped on the same level-and in the same manner- as God the Father. This is patent idolatry! The only reason why Jesus is deserving of our worship is because he is God himself and not just a glorified man.
Waste of time. Neither addressed each other. They both failed, I was really looking forward to this debate too.