Predestination debate: For whom did Christ die? - Part 1
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- www.revelationt... Dr Michael Brown and Dr James White debate and discuss Predestination: For whom did Christ die? The debate was moderated by Presenter Tim Vince (Sky Digital 581 and Freesat 692, live stream: www.revelationtv.com). Our hope is to be a faithful witness to biblical truths in these challenging times. Please pray that the Lord will be honoured during this important broadcast. Do also encourage others to watch too.
Also, Dr. Brown is incessantly referring to "the world" as if it means every person who ever lived, when if it is taken in context with the rest of Scripture, it's pretty obvious to me that the writers are making sure their readers know it is *not only for the Jews*, but all people of every tribe and tongue to whom the gift of salvation can be received. That is clearly the intent of the New Testament writers throughout.
What part of the "world" part you don't understand? If God is infinite in all that He is, suddenly He "changes" His mind and becomes stingy by only atoning for the few? If God IS LOVE, how come He creates the majority in order to send them to hell?
@@solitarypawn5076 since God is omniscient and omnipotent He has the power and plan to create men knowing they are reprobate. Why does He create them at all? It is His plan and Romans 9 tells us that He gets glory in (rightfully) punishing sin (vessels of wrath).
@@hsdjsdshdhsdnsmsd6247 God still created them so you don't get Him off the hook by denying His sovereignty. Read 1 Timothy in context. Paul writes about all KINDS of people (vs 1-2). Keep reading, does Jesus meditate (vs 5) and pay the ransom (vs 6) for every single person who ever lived? Of course not, that would be universalism!
@@jackykimes Ah, calvinists favorite word: "sovereignty". I read the context and it doesnt support your interpretation. Paul doesnt say "all kinds of people", thats what you want to read into it. I dont deny Gods "sovereignty" since I dont deny that God has the power to create people just to put them in hell. However, that would make him a sadistic monster worse than Hitler. Just because God has the power to do something, doesnt meant that He does it. And yes, Jesus paid the ransom for ALL people. The people just have to accept that gift.
@@hsdjsdshdhsdnsmsd6247 Let me just say that you (and countless others) misunderstand the fact that Adam and Eve had complete free will and chose to dishonor God's command. Just one command at that. Now we are all under sin and by default a byproduct of that fall. We are all guilty of condemnation, and we are all responsible for everything we do. This is the part that everyone misses. God doesn't have to save any of us, but the fact that He does is a testament to His grace and mercy. The notion that God being completely sovereign upsets some people is the height of arrogance in demanding that we be the master of our own fate. That is what apostacy looks like.
The converse of that is men 'just have to accept that gift', which still doesn't get God 'off the hook'. For why would a "loving God" create a race of humans knowing full well that most would reject that gift and suffer the fate of condemnation? That isn't very loving. He didn't think that one out? In either case, you are putting God on the hot seat for failing to insure that all are saved. Why would a loving God allow disease, or famine, or disabilities? And why would a resurrected Christ only appear to a few, when appearing to as many as possible would seem to have given more people the opportunity to believe???
Thank you for making this debate available. Good stuff!
The title to this video is answered obviously in scripture.
1. No one is predestined to hell. It is written, “It is God’s will that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.” If God’s will is clearly defined here, but people still go to hell, it must mean that it’s not purely God’s will that impacts our eternal fate (because if it was everyone would go to heaven). The only other wills able to impact our decisions are the wills of the powers of darkness and our own. We know further that God didn’t alter these wills, because if He did He would be altering them to get people to heaven and not everyone goes to heaven. This demonstrates that the wills of the powers of darkness and humanity are not impacted by God to the degree of wholly deciding eternal destinations. If this is the case then it must be either the wills of the powers of darkness that confine decisions, or our own. We know that the will of the powers of darkness is one and the same: to kill, steal, and destroy. So if the will of Satan and his kingdom was enough to totally impact the eternal destination of humanity, everyone would end up in hell. This, however, is not what we see. That only leaves one will that has the power to impact our decisions to the degree of determining our eternal destination: our own. That’s why it is also written in the book of Deuteronomy, “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.” We have a choice to choose between life and death, heaven and hell. To deny this is to objectively deny scripture.
2. Jesus Christ died for everyone. As it is written in 1 Corinthians 5:15, “He died for all.” End of debate.
Personally I think to even question this as if it’s debatable is disgusting. To say Christ didn’t die for all is to say Christ shows favoritism (willingness to die for some and not others), which is to misrepresent who Jesus is. Jesus is light and “in Him there is no darkness at all.” How then could He show favoritism which is condemned in the book of James as evil? Jesus died for all, it says it blatantly in scripture.
Very well said!!!
Keep reading your Bible
@@annad8636 I just quoted the Bible, you didn’t because you have no reply. I’ll let that speak for itself.
@@JoshuaTCoe
Election is the act of God whereby in eternity past He chose those who will be saved. Election is unconditional, because it does not depend on anything outside of God, such as good works or foreseen faith (Romans 9:16). This doctrine is repeatedly taught in the Bible, and is also demanded by our knowledge of God. To begin with, let's look at the biblical evidence.
The Bible says prior to salvation, all people are dead in sin--spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1-3). In this state of death, the sinner is utterly unable to respond to any spiritual stimulus and therefore unable to love God, obey Him, or please Him in any way. Scripture says the mind of every unbeliever "is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8, emphasis added). That describes a state of total hopelessness: spiritual death.
The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."
This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work. Consider these passages:
In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, "... the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."
Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will."
Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.
In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."
Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."
Occasionally someone will suggest that God's election is based on His foreknowledge of certain events. This argument suggests that God simply looks into the future to see who will believe, and He chooses those whom He sees choosing Him. Notice that 1 Peter 1:2 says the elect are chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father," and Romans 8:29 says, "whom He foreknew, He also predestined." And if divine foreknowledge simply means God's knowledge of what will happen in advance, then these arguments may appear to have some weight behind them.
But that is not the biblical meaning of "foreknowledge." When the Bible speaks of God's foreknowledge, it refers to God's establishment of a love relationship with that person. The word know, in both the Old and New Testament, refers to much more than mere cognitive knowledge of a person. Such passages as Hosea 13:4-5; Amos 3:2 (KJV); and Romans 11:2 clearly indicate this. For example, 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was "foreknown before the foundation of the world." Surely this means more than that God the Father looked into the future to behold Christ! It means He had an eternal, loving relationship with Him. The same is true of the elect, whom we are told God "foreknew" (Romans 8:29). That means He knew them--he loved them--before the foundation of the world.
If God's choice of the elect is unconditional, does this rule out human responsibility? Paul asks and answers that very question in Romans 9:19-20. He says God's choice of the elect is an act of mercy. Left to themselves, even the elect would persist in sin and be lost, because they are taken from the same fallen lump of clay as the rest of humanity. God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.
The Bible affirms human responsibility right alongside the doctrine of divine sovereignty. Moreover, the offer of mercy in the gospel is extended to all alike. Isaiah 55:1 and Revelation 22:17 call "whosoever will" to be saved. Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved. First Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 tell us that God is not willing that any should perish, but desires that all should be saved. Finally, the Lord Jesus said that, "the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37).
In summary, we can say that God has had a special love relationship with the elect from all eternity, and on the basis of that love relationship chosen them for salvation. The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.
@@annad8636
You said we are spiritually dead before we enter into the covenant with Christ.
100% agree.
You said:
“The effect of all this is that no sinner can ever make the first move in the salvation process. This is what Jesus meant in John 6:44, when He said, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him."
This is also why the Bible repeatedly stresses that salvation is wholly God's work.”
100% agree.
You said:
“Foreknowledge (Romans 8:29)” is to say God loved the elect before the foundation of the world.
100% agree.
You again:
“God alone is responsible for their salvation, but that does not eradicate the responsibility of those who persist in sin and are lost--because they do it willfully, and not under compulsion. They are responsible for their sin, not God.”
Predestination means we don’t have a choice. You're saying we have choice here, debunking your own argument.
You again:
“Isaiah 45:22 and Acts 17:30 command all men to turn to God, repent and be saved.”
Again, you’re destroying the idea we’re predestinated. If we’re predestinated we have no choice. How then, can we be commanded to choose to turn, repent, and be saved? If we were predestined we couldn’t choose and if we couldn’t choose then God’s command telling us to choose would be nonsensical. Not to mention it would make Him evil for sending people who had no choice in the matter to hell.
More of you:
“The ultimate question of why God chose some for salvation and left others in their sinful state is one that we, with our finite knowledge, cannot answer.”
Now you’re off the rails. You just spent many many words proving my point, not yours. Now, when you get to the end you say God left some out. He didn’t leave anyone out. It says He wants all to be saved. If it was up to Him no one would be left out. The truth is the sinner leaves themself out. That’s the part where they chose to sin/reject God.
You for the last time:
“We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.”
Accept here, on your view, they don’t operate in harmony with love. How can a loving God create someone, give them no choice in the matter, and send them to eternal torment? How could that possibly be just? It couldn’t be, so free choice must be given to justify condemnation. If not, God isn’t just. Currently, on your view that people can be sent to hell of no fault of their own… God isn’t just. That’s something you have to reconcile with your position.
Lastly, you didn’t address my arguments. 1) God desires all men to be saved. So if God predestined anyone to a destination He’d be predestinating them to heaven, because your bible says His desire is everyone go there. And if God predestines one to heaven He must predestinate all to heaven because your bible says God does not show favoritism. 2) Your bible says explicitly that God gives us a choice (Deut 30:19) to live [be saved] or die [remain in spiritual death]. If we have the choice to choose we aren’t predestined because predestination says we don't have a choice in our destination because it's already been chosen. But we do have the choice to be saved or not, so predestination cannot be the case.
Masterclass from Dr. White!
😂
You’ve never read the Bible outside of your theology books, right? What’s the difference between you and a Catholic reading scripture through their creeds?
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
And I love my calvinist reformed brothers but they can often be very arrogant (as some of the comments below reflect) as knowledge puffs up. Glad to see Dr White not living up to the stereotype in this debate. Both showed humility and respect.
***** Amen Keith- I think Brown and White are good examples for us both to follow as they model how brothers can interact over issues we disagree on. Blessings and Love.
Don Jay Amen, man. I'm Armenian in my view on this particular topic. I find it disgusting when "fundamentalists" call Calvinists "satanic". Some of my family hold this view. This is a disagreement within the church. It's a disagreement. People interpret different passages of Scripture clearly. White is an amazing scholar and so is Brown. Point blank, we're the Church. We're supposed to be bonded, whether Calvinist or Armenian. Disagreements happen, between friends and family. It's obvious disagreements shall arise between us Christians as well. But, the point remains, we're brothers and sisters in Christ. Family comes first.
Its interesting that any one who knows JESUS can call James White is a brother in Christ.
In other debates and on his show, Mr White comes across as very arrogant
the host kind of interrupts stuff and makes it difficult to have on point responses
I love James White! You are such a wealth of knowledge Doctor White and a blessing to many.
False teacher
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
.
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16: 15
If that commission was and is offered to "every creature" as Jesus said, but the intention of it was only made to bring in the elect, then the offer itself is a lie. And that is unthinkable!
But the Gospel as you see it is unjust, since Jesus came only to save the Elect, the rest of the world can literally 'go to hell'.
I will question what is pleasing to God when God is interpreted by men.Thus, if as you say, "God demands obedience" then why does He command all men everywhere to repent" Acts 17: 30, if He has condemned them already?
"We" is a very loose word from you. I'm not questioning God, I'm questioning your 17th century puritan separatist worldview.
Owenisn is no eternal authority whatsoever!
Acts 13:48
@@ManlyServant And where does that ordaining exclude anyone? Luke does not say fore-ordained, neither does he reference an assembly determined from eternity but what was done then. G5021 does not reference any predestination, but an arranged appointment.
@@SimonPeterSutherland im just quoting,but you get defensive even without me telling what is my stance in comment,this shows that this verses testifies against you
There were great points on both sides, but 1 exclusive point which Dr. Brown makes is the intercession of Yeshua is parallel with Leviticus 16 when the priest intercede for the whole nation of Israel. If you understand Torah God says "Choose" life (Leviticus 30) the intercession of Messiah MUST be parallel to the intercession of the levitical priest in Torah.
Let's make a plain and simple analogy.
There is a nation of thirsty people. THE priest says, "Hey here is water so you may Live!." There will be some who will choose to drink and some who will choose not to drink. The ones who drink water live and the ones that don't die.
This is the basic lesson dr. Brown is pointing out.
White is making the erroneous assumption that the effect of the atonement is automatic; upon that assumption is universalism is the only option.
Also, he his erred to say that the sacrifices in the OT are only for those who draw near. The Hebrew texts show that the atonement was for the nation; it's effect was not automatiic but conditioned upon humbling oneself under it.
Michael has the mustache that James needs, James has the goatee that Michael needs :D
The last subject was very interesting (and important). The question was, does Christ intercede for infidels. Jesus is said to have died for a group, and for that same group he will eternally intercede. If Christ died for all including infidels that will in the future end up in eternal torment, then he will continually intercede for those in eternal torment. Dr. Brown refused to answer to that and at two points tried to change the subject.
It very clearly is a point of inference that Christ died perfectly for those he came to save; for those whom the Father gave to him. He will eternally intercede for the elect. Dr. Brown needs to see that the work of Jesus (as highpriest), does both the sacrifice AND intercession. These two things, CANNOT be separated. :)
+BrinkTheGamer This was the 1st time for me to consider; if Jesus is continually interceding for those that he died for, then this would mean he also is praying for those who are in hell! Superb insight!!
Good points. I personally think that last segment was the most intense!
Yes, very good points indeed. There are many related backup points to the first. One very simple one that comes to mind was when Christ prayed saying I do not pray those, I pray for the ones you gave me. This means that there is an isolated group for whom Christ prays (intercedes), that being the case, that means that there are some for whom he does not pray(intercede). And if there is no interceding for those persons, it means necessarily that he did not die for them.
+BrinkTheGamer Totally agree.
BrinkTheGamer Excellent. Dr. Brown, although sincere, seems to have real blind spot, seeing this point+
Consistency is not necessarily proof of interpreting the Scriptures correctly.
Exactly, because if your are wrong in your thought process, then you will be consistently wrong...
This question is for the those who are neither Calvinist nor Open theist who affirm God is creator of all things, knows all things and never learns yet they also affirm things can happen without God intending them to happen.
How can anything happen in this world that is not ultimately God’s intention, when the existence of this world depended entirely upon God’s intentional act to create it; which He did with 100% certainty about all that would happen as an inevitable consequence of His intention to create?
Prior to creation, how could God have had infallible foreknowledge of Himself making a free choice (How it could be a free choice yet infallibly foreknown I don't know) to create this particular world in which he knew the evil choices of His creatures would consequentially exist, without intending to make this infallibly foreknown free choice (Unintended free choice!! Yes it gets stranger) to create this particular world because He knew all the evil choices His creatures would make as a consequence and He did not want to cause evil things to happen?
To believe that God looked down through time to see who would choose Christ and then God elected people on that basis,would turn the scriptures on their head,to say : He loved us because we loved Him first.
Yes, Jesus died for those who *believe*, but that doesn't explain how one comes about *believing*. Luke 24:45 "Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures." Luke 24:31 "Then their eyes were opened and they recognized Him." NASB Clearly, not even those who *walked* with Him on the Earth could see who He was, or understand the Scriptures, unless He opened their eyes and their minds so they could see, and believe. It is more than obvious, if you read the whole Book in full context and not take things out of context. The best answers to the questions is Scripture itself.
There are some things that can't be explained so easily. Does God have sovereign authority? Yes. Is there a level of free will? Yes, but only through Grace, thus receiving the Spirit are works accounted as payment for your debt. The two are not mutually exclusive, and on the other hand not exclusively apart. We know "By grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" Then we see in James 2:20; "faith without works is dead," and again in James 2:24; "by works a man is justified and not by faith only." Faith comes from the Spirit by Grace. And through the Spirit Paul tells us we will do the works guided by the Spirit; Romans 11:5-7; "In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened," again in Romans 4:4; "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due." Finally, in 2 Timothy 1:8-10; "Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,…" I'm not sure why this is not obviously clear?
Hi Amira, I believe in particular redemption, I believe in divine election, I believe in predestination, because these are foundational doctrines of biblical Christianity. I believe that God chooses in salvation and he made his choice before the world was made. I believe in reprobation. I believe that God will save every soul that he intends to save. I believe that God has no intention of saving a lot of people. The reason that I know that I am not a vessel of wrath is because I know that God has begun a good work in me. I also love the brethren.
do you really believe that god played duck duck damn with people on earth?
You believe in Calvin not Christ.
@@vrz2000 Lolol wow
@@myraride9563 I believe what the Bible teaches
@@dustinnyblom7835 It was a genuine question, do you really think this all loving god of christianity damned people before they were born
If Christ came to save the whole world not one will be lost
I have to say, I’ve been on both parts of this and James’ position seems to be particularly compelling.
“Justification comes by faith”, but who can believe without the atonement and Sanctification and regeneration of the Spirit for that individual first?
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I can not say that I chose God, I did not and cannot. Even now as a believer.
So many people believe they can stop sinning on their own e.g. pornography, having a perfect marriage, emotions, wicked thoughts, wicked hearts by accountability and seeker friendly messages.
I believe being sanctified can only happen by God drawing me near to Him and that’s how I sin less, not by my own merit or self righteous efforts.
I couldn’t believe by myself, God’s Mercy spared me and introduced me to His Grace, even now as a sinful man I can’t choose God or be Holy and sanctified of my own accord.
I remember a lead pastor(baptist) use to tell us his mentees, when we think about pornography go on a run, I slowly seen that even then I thought about sex after the run.
But he never told us to deal with our sin by running to Christ and His Word.
I say this to say my own efforts do nothing if it’s not God’s purpose, yes I must be obedient but it’s by God’s purposes
Maybe some things to consider!
1 Timothy 2:3-6
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,”
It addresses the extent of the atonement in 1 Tim 2:6 “…who gave Himself a ransom for all…”
it seems with reasonable cohesiveness and consistency with other scripture such as John 1:29
“Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
I think there are complexities of the mechanics we can’t fully comprehend,
how could we comprehend the fullness of understanding but if something is unsure Trust in the Lord always that he is good and the most righteous, pray for wisdom.
May Christ Jesus be with you all :)
Alex Morton Why there are so many people in hell ? Can’t God save them ?
@@SamitoJesus1
People do not come because they are in denial about their wickedness.
…19 And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and DOES NOT COME into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
(John 3:19-20)
I wonder if there is such a thing as a calvinist that believes he or she has been predestined for hell?
By David Moore
Originally Answered: If God is omnipotent and knows what we will do before he created us, how can we have free will?
A great question. A time-honoured one.
Many of the apparently insoluble paradoxes of the Evangelical worldview are the result of assumptions that are made to accommodate the human perspective. Now, I thoroughly accept that this must occur (how could humans not take the ‘human viewpoint’?) but I offer the thought that just as we are aware that terrestrial navigation methods that dictate vectors on earth (north, south etc.) have no meaning in non-heliocentric space, so we might consider that some humano-centric concepts (such as time) may have no applicability in aspects of theology.
Hence, the problem of predestination (which I would suggest is predicated on our concept of Time) is only a problem under certain conditions. The implications for our experience of free will are not lost on Paul, but he gives a somewhat reductionist response - effectively arguing that ‘since man is not privy to the perspective of God, his objection is is unreasonable’
Romans 9:19-20 NIV
[19] One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will ?” [20] But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this ?’
But this is unsatisfying, so let me invert the problem:
We are upset by Judas’ condemnation because we perceive his actions as being caused by God. What choice did he have? As Paul says, ‘who can resist his will?’. But here is the error: we consider God’s will to be equivalent to our own experience of ‘will’. My will is to type this sentence, thus the sentence is typed.
But causality is not so simple!
Ask any cognitive scientist what that ‘will’ is and they will balk. Quora itself is full of discussions of whether such ‘conscious decision-making’ and mechanical causality is an illusion or not.
Let me put it another way: many Quorans enjoy the concepts of quantum mechanics. We are usually happy to say that quantum systems involve superposition until some observation is applied. We are comfortable in this esoteric, abstract ‘particle in a box’ scenario. But when that box contains a Cat things get harder.
We forget that the ball that we throw to a child (that follows Newtonian mechanics so nicely) is comprised of impossibly large numbers of particles that we simultaneously believe are following the paradoxical laws of the Standard Model. How can we resolve this?
It is as if the behaviour of these particles was predestined when we know that cannot be. As if the ball ‘knew’ what states all its constituent particles would need to be in for it to follow the arc predicted by a model of matter we no longer consider accurate.
This is true because observations are only valid at certain levels. Quantum descriptions make as little sense at macroscopic levels as Newtonian ones do at submolecular levels.
Hence the problem is ‘the Idea of North’. If we apply terrestrial concepts to the greater reality inhabited by God we get strange and impossible results - but just before I lose your interest consider one more fundamental example: geometry. We are happy to define ‘points’ and ‘lines’ in Euclidian geometry, and the concepts of ‘parallel’ and ‘perpendicular’ seem clear.
But we both know the same concepts can appear utterly contradictory in non-euclidean space:
Similarly, Judas fulfills his predestined role and he is responsible for his actions. Yes, it's confusing, but it's the way things are. Theology did not make it this way. God did.
Humans are not that smart, really!
We can have free will because God is Sovereign, do nottry to find answer on your own, or answer the question through calvin. Just simplt trust what the word says.
Good opportunity to hear both sides with each one's strengths and weaknesses. Done in a winsome manner as well, for which, I am grateful. Too many of these presentations deteriorate into foolish argumentation.
Respectful here, but White’s usual modus operandi is not so
Obinna Umelo sent me a response to my question. I don't see it here, but wanted to reply. You said that "The answer is no. Those that reject their a priori knowledge of God do not go to heaven." (that was only a part of his answer) So are you saying by this that they receive faith for what they do know and this is sufficient for heaven? I have always understood that there must be faith in Christ, His death and resurrection. I understand that you are saying that the debt is fully paid and that faith is received by or given to those for whom it is paid. I just wanted to be clear that it is faith in Christ and not simply faith in God in general.
I am saying people receive faith for what they do implicitly know but are naturally resistant towards because of their inherent sinful inclination. OT Jews had special revelation but they did not have explicit revelation of Christ, His death and resurrection. However they had natural revelation along with every other person that has never heard the gospel. I think natural knowledge is an implicit recognition of ones need for Christ.
This a priori natural knowledge includes the knowledge of God, His perfection and the fact that we are sinners in need of a savior. On top of this natural knowledge the Jews had more specific details and the law to obey and faith in this concealed revelation of Christ was CREDITED as sufficient for heaven.
This is speculation but I think that if God gave someone faith in all the natural revelation they received then that would also be CREDITED as sufficient for heaven. However this might be an unlikely scenario because of our sinfulness.
***** Just making sure I understand. A Native American from way back before missionaries came to the US would be credited as righteous if they had faith in God for what they knew from nature with no knowledge of the Bible or Christ needed whatsoever? Is this what you're saying? This doesn't seem to be Dr. White's view from what I've seen.
***** From my understanding Dr White believes in Forensic Justification and justification through faith. I cannot speak any further on the details of what Dr white believes beyond these things.
I believe salvation of the sinner is always through faith in the work of Christ. However as in the case of OT saints that faith was implicit and not explicit. OT saints ascended to their need for Christ (concealed) but they did not know or understand Christ would die and be resurrected.
So what I am saying is faith in the work of Christ can either be explicit (as for those who hear the gospel) or implicit (as for OT saints).
As for the Native American who has never heard the gospel I believe they are ALMOST certainly lost. The reason why I say almost is because I believe natural revelation contains ones need for Christ (concealed). So even though it could be formally possible, I think this possibility is unlikely because of the rebellion inherent in corrupt human nature.
If anyone who receives natural revelation could ascend to their need for Christ (who is concealed but implicit in the revelation) I believe they will be credited as righteous. This may just be a hypothetical that is never actualised in history.
***** What makes Christianity unique? I think one of the key things is the fact that we are NOT saved through a righteousness of our own but through the righteousness of God credited to us. This belief affirms God's perfect standard that He alone can attain, He receives all the glory and it perfectly humbles men. I believe seeing this truth is the core of Christianity. I question professing Christians that reject this truth.
One is right and one is wrong, ...both can no be right, one has to be wrong...we can straddle the fence
Literally the most famous quote from the Bible: For so God loved the WORLD...
James White and all Calvinists: Let me stop you right there.
Calvinism has to be the most lazy version of christianity ever. God does everything, we don't have to do nothing. No need to accept God through faith, no reason to get baptised and repent, no reason to evangelize. God will literally do everything for you, and if he doesn't, well, he just didn't decree it. Bible for the rich, lazy, proud people who would rather just be the chosen race than take the responsibility for their actions.
Brown confuses the old and new covenants. Since the beginning God has saved people through the new covenant alone. While this covenant was not established until Christ shed his blood, the blessings achieved, however, have a retrospective efficacy. Those who lived prior to the first advent were saved by believing the promise.
One thing I noticed is James White is getting uncomfortable and not completely addressing the issues brought by Jesus death for all. It's our choice for all who believe. Good wants everyone to believe. If it's forced, it's not love.
What is the song they use for the opener?
Jesus is not God! He is a man, messenger and messiah. I call you all to the worship of the One true God, the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus: Allah. Who sent His final prophet and messenger; Muhammad peace be upon him with His final revelation; the Quran. Save yourselves from idoltry and paganism, and accept Tawheed (monotheism).
An answer to the predestination debate is in Ephesians chapter one. This prison epistle, written after the history of the book of acts closes, can be directly applied to all believers since it is written during this age in which we now live. However, Paul uses the word "predestinated" and "chosen" in the first eleven verses and we tend to apply that to ourselves in error.
If you read verses 3-13 very carefully, you will see that there are two groups of people Paul is referring to. This is shown clearly in the pronouns Paul uses. If you would notice, the pronouns "our, us, and we" are used in verses 3-11. These "first person" pronouns are used by Paul to tell the Ephesians what blessings were given to the apostles. If you add yourself into those descriptive pronouns you will come away with a belief that you were also predestinated. However....if you realize that in verse 12, Paul tells us exactly who those pronouns are depicting, you will see that the first group of people referred to is those who "FIRST trusted in Christ".
Then in verse 13 and 14, Paul switches his focus to "you" ( the gentile Ephesians) which now allows us to include ourselves to the subject matter. Remember, the main theme of Ephesians is to show that both Jew and Gentile are heirs TOGETHER. He tells us that "you" ALSO trusted in Christ AFTER you heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL of your salvation. Then He tells us that AFTER we "believed" we were sealed with the Holy Spirit which is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. We have all of those "blessings" that the "first to hope in Christ" have but....only when we consciously "believe" in the gospel of Christ.
Two groups folks.....
#1: The first to hope in Christ, the "predestined"
#2: All those who "hear", "believe", and are sealed.
And why should this surprise us?...... The eleven apostles along with Matthias are explicitly shown as "chosen". Paul himself is shown as a "chosen" vessel of Christ ....the apostle to the gentiles.
Jesus said .....Many are "called" and FEW are "chosen". (two groups)
Jesus prayed for the "chosen" AND ALSO all those who would "believe" through their words. (two groups)
In Rom 1:6 Paul calls the Roman believers the "called" NOT the chosen.
God, in His sovereignty, certainly can give you a decision making ability regarding His Son and the Gospel of His Son that does not diminish His sovereignty in any way.
Certain men were "chosen" in times past to bring about a certain historical narrative, to bring about the writing of scripture, and allow the saving actions of Jesus to happen exactly as the Father would have it. Once the ekklessia was established and the scriptures were completed, there is no need for anyone to be "chosen". You must hear the gospel... and "believe" the gospel as Eph 1 shows and God has given you a mind to do so.
Yet Jesus said he was not praying for the whole world but those whom his Father had given him (Jn 17).
People do not know what they have not experienced. Wether they choose to believe in a particular idea, or testimony or not, until they have experienced it for themselves it is relegated to the realm of concept. It should not be surprising then, that People who have never witnessed God's supernatural power, such as through healing or being healed, or heard the audible voice of God, or stood in an open vision, or experienced the presence of God, and felt His love, can only speak about theology. God does not need His ego stroked, He wants real love, and created us with a measure of subjective love, so He would be inspired by the company. If two members of a family go to hell, how will the others be able to rejoice in heaven without a memory erase? Then if God, is even more affectionate, and filled with parental love than resultant beings, would He have to erase His own memory? There are many unanswerable questions in Christian theology. The time will come when these questions, are answered, in God's time. When He sees we can handle coming from mistaken conventions. New wine should be put in new wine skins, when the time comes.
Brown already showed the intent of the atonement through his presentation of the many Biblical verses. Why does White ignore this?
Because he is deaf and blind by his own knowledge
Sad to see Dr. White holding this unscriptual position. If salvation is based on love it cannot and will not be forced on anyone. Rather it is sincerely offered and man choose to freely accept or reject it. This is salvation 101😔. 🙏📖⏳♨️
Here is absolute Biblical proof that God does NOT cause or determine everything; In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I think Dr. White almost got a chance to exegete Dr. Brown's interpretation of "nation." The priests only interceded for the nation of Israel, God's chosen (the elect), not all people or all nations. As an observation, when someone says, "explicit" about 100 times in reference to a paraphrase or opinion and doesn't actually quote the text, it is merely a persuasive argumentation tool that doesn't allow the text to be explicit on its own.
I have yet to hear Michael answer the question.If God knew before He created anything,exactly who He was going to save and who He was going to punish in Hell,then doesn't this mean God did indeed create people to save and people to damn?If this is true,then it's exactly as James said,God created both groups for His purpose.This proves that Jesus died for specific people,it also proves that God made Hitler and those like him,for a purpose.So evil was indeed created for a purpose.Lam 3:37 Who can speak and have it happen if the Lord has not decreed it?Could Hitler say"I will wipe out the Jews" and then proceed in his insanity if it were not decreed by God Himself? Men need to stop creating a different god and trust the only one who has revealed HIMSELF,for God will not share His glory with another even if one names his idol jesus.
I am with you when you say that God has to know who will be saved because he know the future, but knowing who will accept Jesus is not the same in my view then God having chosen a specific people for salvation. I believe that we chose God, but he already knows that.
France Filiault You must understand,the Bible says when God looked down on man,He saw none who understood,none were good,none seek God,this is why He must make one spiritually alive to come to Christ and He doesn't do this with everyone.This is the Gospel that Paul was not ashamed of,many Christians are though.
You need to understand also,that He knew His people and the goats before time began,and yet He still created the goats for Hell.So if we tell everyone that Jesus loves them,we are lying in many cases.The Bible is clear,God hates many people,He only loves His elect and 100%of who Jesus died for will end up in Heaven God leaves nothing to chance,this is the real God of the Bible.
Tim Ballentine It is a lot to pounder about! Lol I don't believe that if you can't understand this subject that you are not saved. (Not that I'm accusing you of that) I have come across some people who believes that you need to understand plan of election in order to be saved.
France Filiault Here's the thing.If a person has the Holy Spirit living within them,He will lead them into all spiritual truth.So once the truth has been revealed to them and they reject it until death,then they really never had the Holy Spirit to begin with.A god who tries to save,vrs God who has saved all His people at the cross,are two different God's no matter if people call Him by the same name.Open theism is becoming very popular with false Christians.They realize that if God is indeed all knowing then men have no free will and God has indeed made people for Hell.So they simply claim that God never knew His people or the goats before He created them,that He learns who will choose Him in time.Here again is a false god asserted by false Christians,these too are ashamed of the true Gospel.John 6;44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me has drawn him and I will raise him up on the last day.So we see it's up to the Father alone who comes to Jesus.
Tim Ballentine I don't believe in a word so said here, that we have to know eveything the bible says with exact accuracy. When Paul was teaching he was frustrating because his followers still needed the basic teachings, they themselves had a hard time understanding of things, where they not saved? We have the wholy Sprit revealing the word of God according to the faith given by God. I came to Christ when I was young, and my family are still catholic. I can understand that they are saved because their beliefs do not come from the bible, but to say that I can't be saved because I'm not sure if I chose God, or if he chose me is absolutely unbiblical and arrogant.
Romans 12:3 ESV
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
Anyone who confesses Jesus is the Lord has eternal life, and does not come with a condition of if we understand that he chose us. The Holy Sprit lives within us reveals things to us yes, but because we don't understand or agree with one another does not make a difference with our salvation.
All that the father give the son shall come to him and he came to save them that the father give him Jesus Christ himself preach elicition
Q. Who does the Father "give" to Jesus? Michael answers saying, "Those who believe" - which is an absolutely circular argument! For "believes" and "comes to" are synonymous terms. Jesus said "All that the Father GIVES Me will COME" (Jn 6:37). Michael, twists this to say "ALL who come, the Father will give". He is completely incorrect here. For IF the Father only "gives" those who believe, rather than as Jesus said they believe because He gives them, then God in truth gives nothing! The person has already given themselves to Christ! So what is God, just a rubber stamp after-the-fact? Arminians OFTEN reword the scripture to make it fit. Acts 13:48 is a parallel to Jn 6:37. It says "...and all who were appointed to eternal life, believed". It does NOT say, as Michael must argue, "All who believed were appointed for eternal life". In Eph 2:8-9- perhaps the greatest exposition of the basis and process of salvation, Paul does NOT mention the word "CHOICE" ( in any of its derivatives). He did not say "For by CHOICE are you saved by grace", NOR did he say, "For grace are you saved through your CHOICE to believe". These are the essence of Arminian error. What Paul DID say was "For by grace are you saved through faith - and THAT not of yourselves, IT is the gift of God. Not of works, lest anyone should boast". The term "choice" is NOT in Eph 2:8-9.
What love is this? If there is no free will/choice of a person, how is it love? Yes, Jesus chooses ALL to be saved, but it's two-way. The individual must accept Jesus from his heart or reject Him. It's sort of like when an employer wants to hire you, in other words they choose you, but you have the right and free choice to accept that job or not. Everyone is able to be saved, but we know this is not how it will be because everyone has their own mind, and will decide for themselves. I do believe Jesus knows who will ultimately be with Him for eternity and who won't because He is all knowing, but that is not the same as predestination.
I think both parties miss the simplicity of the gospel message. 1 Corinthians 5:19-21 says the following: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Its clear in this passage and many others that the debt the entire world owed HAS been reconciled, the debt is paid in full! NOW, the message for Christians is to go out and tell the WORLD that their debt has been paid (that's the GOOD NEWS!!) and with that good news they should reconcile themselves to God! God has done His part by paying for their sins on the cross. Now, all that is required is for them to repent and believe in Him! What did Jesus tell Nicodemus? Did he tell him to hope that he is one of the predestined?? No! He said you must be born again! How does one become born again? He tells Nicodemus a few versus later that he needs to believe! John 3:16-17 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. A person doesn't go to hell because of his sins because God already cleared that debt, he goes because he didn't believe. The only difference between a believer and a non-believer is BELIEF!!! We are all born spiritually dead because of sin. God took the penalty of sin away on the cross, paying it Himself. Now, the only thing that can be done is for one to believe and by doing so, you are born again and receive eternal life. Your dead spirit is made alive. That's some very simple and really good news. I wouldn't consider it Good News that only some are elected to be saved and some are elected for destruction. Pretty lousy news for some.
Of all the ammunition Dr Michael Brown gave, nothing hits the question of Dr White regarding the connection of the work of Christ to the people in Hell.
Heretical prayer: O Mother of Perpetual Help, thou art the dispenser of all the gifts which God grants to us miserable sinners; and for this end He has made thee so powerful, so rich, and so bountiful, in order that thou mayest help us in our misery. Thou art the advocate of the most wretched and abandoned sinners who have recourse to thee: come to my aid, for I recommend myself to thee.
In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee I entrust my soul. Count me among thy most devoted servants; take me under thy protection, and it is enough for me. For, if thou protect me, I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my judge, because by one prayer from thee He will be appeased.
But one thing I fear: that in the hour of temptation I may through negligence fail to have recourse to thee and thus perish miserably. Obtain for me, therefore, the pardon of my sins, love for Jesus, final perseverance, and the grace ever to have recourse to thee, O Mother of Perpetual Help.
This is a legit Roman Catholic prayer, look up "O Mother of Perpetual Help" if you want to know if it’s legit.
This is super heretical. This doctrine of invoking departed saints doesn’t seem just like "hey it’s like praying to a friend.".
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There are some doctrines that Jesus hates (Revelation 2), and says so. We ought not to be so hesitant to do the same! I believe Jesus hates the doctrines of Calvinism, and anyone attempting to spread them cannot be being led by the Spirit of truth as He doesn't spread lies. Forgive them Father...💛
God is love. A theology built around John Calvin who was a murderer like his father, can never glorify the true God.
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
Christ died for all and therefore all died. All are dead right now. This is why it is written: "Wake up, O sleeper! Rise from among the dead and Christ will shine on you!"
But who will hear this call and who will truly believe it?
In Zechariah 13:8-9, God foretold that when the Day of refinement and testing comes, 2/3 of all the land will be struck down and perish but the 1/3 will be left in it. He will call them as his people and as a result, they will call God as their Lord.
It is very hard to go against what dr bown said in his opening statement an I could not agree more. im open to change if calvanism is the right or better way but after years od study an listening to some great calvanists im still a non -calvanist.
Dave Hunt had a lot to say against calvanism. I've enjoyed what he had to say, and he was not a calvanist btw. RIP Dave Hunt
xVGypsyVx I have listened to dave hunt a few times, an seen interviews with him going back to the days of Walter Martin,the original bible answer man and in my opinion one of the best apologist out there.Dave Hunt has had some contibutions, but he was a liitle more than controversial an went overboard at times, he overdoes things in reference to the catholic church an calls them the apostate church and uses some flimsy evidence to support his claim. The CC has some issues in secondary areas but in essentials there ok.He goes overboard in a few other areas I feel but no sense going into here.
BOBBY FREE Walter Martins book kingdom of the cults spelled it all out,Hepassed away 20 years ago.
BOBBY FREE It doesn't seem he went overboard with the catholic church in my opinion. Remember Jesus was considered controversial with the pharisees and He still is to this day! However, I will check out Walter Martin. God bless.
BOBBY FREE Yes, I watched a debate with Walter Martin the other day! Didn't realize that was who I was watching. He seemed very intelligent and spoke really well. I like that guy! I'll continue to watch what I can of him, thanks.
He tried so hard to stick to the debate on the atonement, but no...
Christ died for the ungodly
I can't think of a more man centered doctrine then calvinism.
"Most of the world goes to hell but I'm the special elect chosen before creation "
The Bible never means what it says and everything always comes back to knowledge the calvinist has that isn't available to everyone else or described in scripture.
They follow a man’s exalting tradition of John Calvin.
A true Christian trusts God to perfectly convey His Word and that His Word is true.
A true Christian doesn’t need to add "kinds" or "types" at the end of sentences that disagree with Calvinist theology.
A true Christian doesn’t need to declare God has a secret will that contradicts scripture to uphold Reformed theology.
This is the difference between the Bible believer and the Calvinist.
One of the main points of Calvinism is that the elect were predestined to be saved prior to them believing. This would mean that salvation is secured outside of Christ!
So how can a Calvinist who's totally depraved be assured of salvation without relying on totally depraved faculties.
A Calvinist say they are no longer totally depraved.
Ok well how do you know?
The faculties that were at least once totally depraved testify to your new heart?
OK how do you know your totally depraved heart isn't deceiving you?
The Mormon is deceived. Why aren't you? Because of the good things you do?
That's human experience that must be processed by a totally depraved heart with no way of knowing if your heart is changed unless your totally depraved heart tells you it's new.
So how does the totally depraved individual know Christ died for him and he's therefore been unconditionally elected without having to rely on human experience processed with a heart and mind that are totally depraved?
Truth in Love
The basis of the failure for the man in hell is not in the Cross but in the person. Dr. Brown is not "dividing" the atonement as White contends. Rather, it is White "dividing" the atonement between the elect and non-elect; whereas Brown maintains a unity with the atonement being for all men. Again, the failre resides not in the blood of Christ but in the disbelief of men.
If none are saved, nevetheless, his love is seen but it is refused to be believed in. Just because all go to hell and none are saved does not necessarily mean God's love is not revealed. And, again, it is White who divides the atonement dividing the attributes of God, e.g. divine love on one side and divine power, whereas the Bible makes no such division. His power to save is effected by His love and His love is the ultimate ground of the atonement.
Michael Brown you are so confused. If Christ took away the sins of the whole world then how come they're coming back again on people?
Why would God say that he desires that no one parish if he has already decided who will live or not? God searches everyone's heart and he will seek those who seek him with a pure heart. Anyone who seeks God with a pure heart and accepts Yeshua and repents will be saved. Predestination refers to Gods predestined plan for mankind. Your have to read all scripture to fully understand it. Not take one passage out of context. You need to interpret scripture with scripture.
Are you Calvinist? God bless you.
Merci Beaucoup
I don’t think he is a Calvinist. He’s saying that God desires all men to be saved.
Calvinism makes God out to be schizophrenic. He does it all but gets upset at them for doing what He made them do. He desires them all to be saved but only saved a few and weeps over those who would not come to Him, through He made them incapable of doing so.
It’s such a confusing and strange doctrine.
God bless
@@evanu6579
I concur with your message 100% my friend. God bless you.
I have spent much time on this subject. Calvinism is a relatively new belief system. TULIP must be "dredged up" to be found, and scripture twisted with presuppositions to try to sell it to other Christians. If it were explained to unbelievers they would certainly run from it due to the uncertainty of their ability to be saved.
This is completely false. Go read any puritan or church father.
Mark Birchall categorically false
NEW!!!??? Have you read Romans brother?
Thanks Tom for quoting scriptures that reinforce the Apostolic doctrines that Calvinism seeks to defend. The idea that "we have no say whatsoever in whether or not we would become God's children" is immaterial. It is not a matter of "us having a say" in our salvation. All we can do is fall upon the mercy of God in faith. The ability to do this comes not from some brave move on our part, but rather it is a direct response to the convicting, converting and consecrating work of the Holy Spirit. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.bThe old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." Our part is aresponse of submission to the irresistible grace of the LORD Who gave His all for us.
Both are right in some aspects and but go completely against the fundamental character of God. God is love but He is completely righteous as well. Holiness cannot co-habit unholiness, thus the act of redemption on the cross to bring ALL men to Himself. Does this mean all are saved..no they deliberately reject God's purpose for themselves and trample underfoot the Son of God by their unbelief.Hebrews10:29 'Elect' is a beautiful word referring to the children bought by His sacrifice and the calvinists reduce it to portray all-loving God as a bigot. He is not, you confused child made in the image of Almighty God of intrinsic worth. Arminianism introduces the term corporate and somehow reduces the personal work of Jesus done on the cross. Yes I was on His mind on the cross but that does not imply that the rest of mankind specifically were not.Known unto GOD are all His works from beginning to end. It doesn't have to immediately seem consistent to your logic; you cannot completely figure out God before you make a decision to follow HIM but you completely rely on His love for you and that He always has your best interests in mind. He's not going to love you to the end, He's already loved you to the end.John13:1 While considering whether to follow Calvinism or arminianism, Christianity is not completely defined by both; take up your cross daily and follow Jesus and only when you're led by the Holy Spirit can you boldly claim 1John2:27 "As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about ALL things and as that anointing is REAL, not COUNTERFEIT-just as it has taught you, remain in Him".
do you think man love God man hate the light man love darkness
Dr. Brown shares it correctly. I agree 100%.
James is so indoctrinated by Calvinism he cannot see the truth
Spot on
James White is missing the point, Jesus did indeed die for all the ones who are in hell, they are in hell, not because God chose not to save them, but because they rejected the gift of eternal life. God wants all saved, but He wont force salvation on anybody. Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept. and said, "As a mother hen gather her chicks I would but ye would not, I called but ye refused". God wants all s avedc but many did not and are in hell and many will not and will go to he'll because God called and they refused. Jesus knocks in the doors of our hearts wanting to come in and save use but we have free choice whether to receive Him or reject Him. He didn't make people to reject Him. although He probably knew ahead of time that they would reject Him, but He didn't create any human just to throw them into hell. Hell was not made for people, it was made for the devil and his angels, and if God intended for certain people to go to hell when He made them, He would have made hell big enough in the first place, but you know what? Hell is enlarging itself and opening its mouth without measure as it says in Isaiah 5:14 , why? I believe God would have already made hell large enough ahead of time in order to fit all the people He picked for hell. I wish that was brought up in this debate, maybe in part 2 Michael Brown will. Maybe in part 2, either Michael Brown or the host will ask James White how do anybody know if they are one of the ones God picked for heaven.
Christopher Chipps I sense you did not actually listen to this debate.
Why was it that God loved Jacob and hated Esau?
I. THIS IS A FACT. Ask an Arminian about election, and at once he begins to sharpen the knife of controversy. But say to him, "Ah, brother I was it not Divine grace that made you to differ? Was it not the Lord who called you out of your natural state and made you what you are? "Oh, yes," he says, "I quite agree with you there." Well, then, why is it that one man has been converted, and not another? "Oh, the Spirit of God has been at work in this man," that God does treat one man better than another is not very wonderful. It is a fact we recognise every day. There is a man that, work as hard as he likes, he cannot earn more than fifteen shillings a week; and here is another that gets a thousand a year? One is born in a palace, while another draws his first breath in a hovel. Here is a man whose head cannot hold two thoughts together; here is another who can dive into the deepest of questions; what is the reason of it? God has done it. He has made some eagles, and some worms; some He has made lions, and some creeping lizards; He has made some men kings, and some are born beggars. Do you murmur at God for it? No. What is the use of kicking against facts? God does in matters of religion give to one man more than to another. He gives to me opportunities of hearing the Word which He does not give to the Hottentot. He gives to me parents who trained me in the fear of the Lord. He does not give that to many of you. He places me afterwards in situations where I am restrained from sin. Other men are cast into places where their sinful passions are developed. Again, He brings one man under the sound of a powerful ministry, while another sits and listens to a preacher whose drowsiness is only exceeded by that of his hearers. And even when they are hearing the gospel the fact is God works in one heart when He does not in another.
1. Look at Jacob's life. You are compelled to say that from the first hour that he left his father's house God loved him. Why, he has not gone far before he has the Bethel experience. Laban tries to cheat him and God suffers it not, but multiplies the cattle that Laban gives him. When he fled God charges Laban not to speak to Jacob either good or bad. When his sons had committed murder in Shechem, and Jacob is afraid that he will be destroyed, God puts a fear upon the people, and says to them, "Touch not Mine anointed, and do My prophet no harm." And when a famine comes over the land, God has sent Joseph into Egypt to provide for him and his brethren. And see the happy end of Jacob. It was that of "a man that God loved."
2. On the other hand, God did not love Esau. He permitted him to become the father of princes, but He had not blessed his generation. Where is the house of Esau now? Edom has perished.
II. WHY IS THIS?
1. Why did God love Jacob? There was nothing in Jacob that could make God love him, but much that might have made God hate him. it was because God was infinitely gracious, and because He was sovereign in His dispensation of this grace. Let us look at Jacob's character. As a natural man he was always a bargain-maker. Read what he says after the glorious experience and promise at Bethel (Genesis 28:20, 22). While he lived with Laban what miserable work it was! He had got into the hands of a man of the world, and whenever a covetous Christian gets into such company, a terrible scene ensues. The whole way through we are ashamed of Jacob; we cannot help it. Now, if the character of Jacob be all this there could have been nothing in him that made God love him, and the only reason why God loved him must have been because "He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy."
2. Why did God hate Esau? The two questions are entirely distinct, so one answer will not do for both. Why does God hate any man? Because that man deserves it; no reply but that can ever be true. There are some who answer Divine sovereignty; but I challenge them to look that doctrine in the face. Do you believe that God created man and arbitrarily, and for no other reason than that of destroying him for ever? Well, if you can believe it, I pity you that you should think so meanly of God, whose mercy endureth for ever. Sovereignty holds the scale of love, it is justice holds the other scale. Who can put that into the hand of sovereignty? That were to libel God. Did Esau deserve that God should cast him away? Yes, what we know of Esau's character clearly proves it. Esau lost his birthright; but he sold it himself and for a mess of pottage. Oh, Esau, it is in vain for thee to say, "I lost my birthright by decree." God is not the author of sin. And the doctrine is that every man who loses heaven gives it up himself. God denies it not to him. He will not come that he may have life. But, says one, "Esau repented." Yes, but what sort of a repentance was it? As soon as he found that his brother had got the birthright he sought it again with tears, but he did not get it back. He sold it for a mess of pottage, and he thought he would buy it back by giving his father a mess of pottage. So sinners say, "I have lost heaven by my evil works; I will easily get it again by reforming." No, you may sell heaven for carnal pleasures, but you cannot buy heaven by merely giving them up. You can get heaven only on another ground, viz: the ground of free grace. You think that Esau was a sincere penitent; but when he failed to get the blessing, what did he say? "I will slay my brother Jacob." That is not the repentance that comes from the Holy Spirit. But there are some men like that. They say they are very sorry and then they go and do the same that they did before. On this whole matter read ver. 22. Observe that God had nothing to do with fitting men for destruction. They do that. God only fits men for salvation. At the last day the righteous shall inherit the kingdom prepared for them; but the wicked shall go "into everlasting fire, prepared" - not for you but - "for the devil and his angels."
-SPURGEON
Arminian always jumps to call God choice a demonic gospel?They just changed the name of God to Calvin to be more acceptable in their reject of God Will and choice.
We Arminians want to be sure to separate the perfect holy God from the 'gospel' of this unrepentant man in hell called John Calvin. He was a man that delighted in murder, just like the devil..It is true that Calvinism is another gospel...so demonic or another, the end of it is the same. We dont reject Gods Will, that none would perish, and choice He gave us to accept or refuse Him.
Fred Ost Son of the eternal God vs Eternal Son of God...
John Calvin is the responsable for the death of Michael Servetus.It's not because of the doctrine of the Grace that M.Servetus slowly die the horrible agonie of burning alive.
M.Servetus was burn for this reason:
M.Servetus was claiming that Jesus is the SON of the eternal God contradicting the trinitarian belief who claim: Jesus is the eternal Son of God.
It's the trinitarian doctrine again that condemn Michael and nothing else.
John Calvin was an instrument of God,not necessary a man of God.The reformers refused to reform the doctrine of the trinity,demonstrating that their hearts wasn't pure.
But again we see the bloody doctrine of the trinitarian at work.
John Calvin as an instrument of God bring back the doctrine of Salvation trough Grace only,that the trinitarian always combat.John Calvin bring back the Almighty God who is above men will and who do everything according to his own Will,abolishing the work salvation of the trinitarian.But Calvin,as a trinitarian who refuse to admit that God is only the Father and not three persons,this bring him under God wrath.
The doctrine of the trinity had kill Michael Servetus....and John Calvin.
First I do believe in God, better than believing the universe made it self from nothing. But there examples of knowing someones choice is only after they known that person or people's choices from observing behavior NOT 1000's of years before they where born. If God has 100% of all foreknowledge that means before day 1 of creation he knew which angels would fall against him and how many people would perish in hell AND he still created everything knowing his creation would have pain and suffering. FREE WILL NOT PREDESTINATION can not be both. Genesis 6:5-6King James Version (KJV)
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Listen to what the Holy Spirit says.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
That verse says that the truth can be known .
How about this verse.
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
The truth is available for those that diligently search.
James 1:5-8
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Christians have the responsibility to represent God in truth. Both of the views represented in this debate cannot be right.
The Lord Jesus said you did not choose me but I chose you. The Jesus that Michael Brown believes in says I chose you because I foresaw that you would choose me. I will go with holy scripture rather than the false Christ that Michael Brown believes in.
graceandtruth.net. he goes into it deep ... he also has a youtube channel jim brown
5 Point Calvinists, please hear me and re-think your position.
In Luke.22:19, and I Corinthians 11: 24 Jesus says; “This is My body, which is given for you; this do in remembrance of Me.”.Note; Judas was present at the table when Jesus said that. This means that Christ also died for Judas.
Christ died for the son of perdition/destruction (Jn 17:12)?
In Jn 13:18 the Lord says He knows whom He has chosen.
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ ESV
Simon Wartanian Be careful with the ESV, it is a pretty good translation, but it has many edited verses in it.
Your quote of John 13: 18 does not contradict the clear testimony of Luke 22: 19. In John 13: 18 Jesus stated that He had chosen Judas for to betray Him, yes or no? If yes, why does that mean His sacrificial death or His blood can be divided in such a sense as saying that His blood was shed in vain?
In John 17: 12, the term "lost" implies that he was once 'not lost'. How can someone be lost if they were never found in the first place?
Edited verses?
And you simply take the 'you' to mean every single one of you present here.
Sorry I don't understand the question concerning Jn 13:18
As for Jn 17:12, everyone is lost from God unless they repent and believe. I think there might be a connection between Adam's representation of the human race in the garden and how when Adam fell into sin, we through him also came to the world in a 'lost' condition.
------
Do you believe that the atonement was substitutionary?
Simon Wartanian The ESV has the following edited texts;
Matthew 17:21
Luke 11:2-4 (edited)
Mark 10:21 (edited "take up cross")
Matthew 6:13 (text edit)
Luke 17:36
Luke 23:17
John 5:4
Matthew 18:11
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 15:28
Romans 16:24
There are more.
Yes, everyone was lost from God, that is, Gentiles, but not Jews. Judas was a Jew who was already part of the Chosen People (The Jews) So I doubt the lost in John 17: 12 refers to that?
When I mention the blood of Christ as being "divided" up in some sense, I am talking about how Calvinists divide the blood of Christ up, saying not one drop of it can be spilled or shed in vain. That idea I think, is faulty. I don't see how the blood of Christ can be divided up.
Also, yes, I do believe in substitutionary atonement. Which when applied, is effectual. But the atonement does not appear to have been applied to Judas since the actual death of Christ took place after Judas hung himself. Thus, I think the Calvinist use of Judas in this debate is poor argumentation.
Those texts are not found in the most reliable manuscripts, it's not just deleting, but that's not the point of this discussion.
About the lost: So what if they were God's chosen? They were chosen to be a holy nation of priests, to lead the Gentiles to God. They were as lost as Abram was lost before he knew God.
The point that I wanted to get with the substitutionary atonement question was, if Christ truly bore the sins of every single person, why are they still going to hell? Because of unbelief? Which is a sin according to John 16:9. Did Christ pay for every sin except unbelief?
Why would the Lord of Glory not even bother to pray for the 'world' if He was going to die for them? (Jn 17:9) But He did pray for those that the Father gave to Him.
I didn't want to use any argumentation concerning Judas :P
What the Arminian seems to not understand is,God loved all of HIS PEOPLE (as referenced in Romans 8;28-30) before Creation.God foreknew His people and predestined them to be Glorified.So every person who God foreloved He gave to Christ to come and die for these alone,take their sin away and impute His own righteousness to them so they can be PERFECT as He is perfect before the Father.God also knew all of the goats before He created them and He created them with infallible knowledge that HE would never give them to Christ to save ,they were created for the day of destruction to use as bad examples for all He chose before time for Glory Romans 9;22-23.The key is,all men who Jesus died for is simply describing not only THE JEWS,as Jews had always believed that God was the God of the Jews alone,but for GENTILES too,but this neither means all Gentiles or all Jews only those who God elected FROM every tribe,tongue,nation and people.This is why verses like 2 Pete 3;9 cannot mean that God is patiently waiting for everyone in the world to possibly believe,because God already KNOWS who He will and will not save before He ever created them.God is patiently waiting for all of His elect through out history to be born and regenerated and when the last one who He has foreknown is born and regenerated,then He will send Christ back,this is what the Father is being patient about..
Amen.
+yhvh4god An all-loving God did not and will not create people as an example, judge them for being that example and then punish them for being what He created them to be.
He didn't create ANYONE to be evil. We ARE evil because of the fall. I'm His grace, He chose to save some, while others receive justice. That's biblical. Can you show me beyond an emotional response that it's not?
In*
@@yhvh4god john 17.9 I pray for them; I pray not for the world ,but for them which thou hast given me ; for they are thine .10 And all mine are thine , and I am glorified in them.
Acts 13:48 And when the gentiles heard this ,they were glad , and glorified the word of the Lord :And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
james white believes no bible on this earth is error free.....
You hold in your hand original autographs?
James white just can't follow what he doesn't want to see. Just because you keep asking the same question to force your outcome, doesn't change the outcome of the answer. that doesn't mean you did not get a correct answer. LOL
Pls read the Quran ...and nearest among them in love to the believers will you find those who say, 'We are Christians,' because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (5:82).
"O you who believe! Be helpers of God -- as Jesus the son of Mary said to the Disciples, 'Who will be my helpers in (the work of) God?' Said the disciples, 'We are God's helpers!' Then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved. But We gave power to those who believed, against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed" (61:14).
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).
"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).
k12rising Predestination is a closed case in Islam. Makes total sense and there's no confusion when you know the topic. ;)
k12rising
Islam copied absolutely nothing. If us muslims had copied christians, our theology would have been even more confusing than yours. But alhamdulillah, our 'aqidah (credo) makes every so-called complex subject easy for anyone who studies it with his mind and a sincere heart.
As seen in the video that I linked, the answer goes straight to the point.
John 12:32 "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all mankind to myself.”
2 Peter 3: 9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
P.S
Glad to see that comments are allowed here. I find it interesting that it appears all TH-cam and other online content by James White has comments blocked. By contrast, David Wood allows comments on his content. Kind of ironic that White is critical of Wood for not appearing to read his critical feedback when he himself does not allow such.
predestination = premeditation ... don't be decieved
calvinism is not even a heresy. it has become a sect
I think we won't be ever able to reconcile predestination and free will along the line. There are some logic limitation in our human sphere that we are unable to comprehend, just as trying to represent a 4th dimension, the divine dimension and scope. Although seeing these two brothers and doctors in theology debating and displaying respect to each other is a delight! :)
We absolutely can reconcile predestination and "free will" because when we read through the entirety of Scripture we find that man's concoction of "free will" doesn't exist in Scripture or reality, only a creaturely will that is enslaved to sin and unrighteousness before the Lord sovereignly breaks those chains and then enslaves us to Himself, the good and righteous King of kings.
Nelson, Jesus said no man can come to me unless it were given him of my Father.
The Lord Jesus also said that He laid his life down for the sheep.
Jesus did not Say He laid his life down for the vipers, the swine, the goats, the foxes. The Lord Jesus is the shepherd who gives to his sheep eternal life. He is not a zookeeper.
Believing is a gift from God Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 through 10.
Jesus told some Jews that the reason that they could not hear him was because they were not of his sheep.
You need to read all of that passage and not take it out of context
Yes, but he saves the flies and mosquitoes and spiders...😆😂😅 Including the fish...
Youre stucked on that one verse that out of context
A dead man can't respond to the Gospel. He must be regenerated. If he's regenerated he's one of the Elect. God doesn't cause the non elect to be regenerated. Only those who were given to Christ come to Him.
Rad debate. I respect both these guys and their work. Can not stand the host though, haha. Guy is really good at butting in at the wrong time.
Let’s spend more time dreaming how we can be a reflection of Jesus to a broken world.
Both of these gentlemen are doing that. Everything about the Christian faith is important that's why we debate about it. It would be good if you contribute and stick to the main issue. No one is arguing against what you're saying.
Step 1: make a comment that God should be our focus, even though we are literally discussing Him.
Step 2: pretend anybody involved in the discussion is somehow not glorifying God and is in desperate need of rebuke.
Step 3: if somebody challenges my claim, pivot quickly and throw out another one liner about unity or God being in control and go back to step 1.
Step 4: smile after successfully stifling important discussions that believers should be having.
The issue is how we evangelize based off what is true.
Very interesting debate! It’s a pity, though, that it was fairly clear that the moderator favoured one side over the other.
The cross is no longer any intercession for those in hell because they have refused the intercession of Christ and after death there is no longer any hope of repentance. I think White misunderstands what is the intercession of Christ.
White is pressing a point and not listening to the answer.
I'm not an OT or Hebrew scholar like Dr. Brown so I would appreciate if someone can enlighten me. It seems the passage in Leviticus does not support his position since the "entire nation" he is referring to is God's chosen people. The High Priest did not offer sacrifices for the Amalakites or the Philistines. But I feel like I must be missing something since Dr. White doesn't point this out either.
James White has been a tremendous blessing to me.
My God of the Bible has been a tremendous blessing to me. Not James White. God bless you.
More than half of protestants reject faith-alone. You and white are in the minority.
@@mercibeaucoup2639 Dumb comment
@@michaelmannucci8585
THE ROMANS ARE TO BLAME FOR DEATH OF JESUS. AND YOU ARE ONE OF THEM. NOW THAT’S A DUMB COMMENT LOL. MR. MANNUCCI, I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ITALIANS LIKE YOU. ACTUALLY, MY MOTHER WAS BORN IN PALERMO. WAS MY MESSAGE SUPERCALIFRAGILISTICEXPIALIDOCIOUS.
@@weobeyjesus4565 faith alone is what saves. Whites calvinism isn't biblical but salvation by grace through faith is clear
They are both my brothers but I agree with Dr White, Jesus Christ is not a weak begger but a powerful Savior and as He said He loses NONE that The Father gives Him.
Any serious Bible student who takes the time to look at all the verses concerning the matter of who Christ died for, will see and know that Christ died particularly for his elect people that he chose before the foundation of the world and gave these people the grace of Christ not when they believed, but before the foundation of the world! See second Timothy chapter 1.
Roy Lange Explain the verses that say God wants everyone to be saved then??? 1 timothy 2:4 "who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth". If he predestined the "elect" before sin was even in the world. Then there is no way God really wants "everyone to be saved". The fact that You Say anyone who does not believe in your opinion in not a serious Bible student is very ignorant and it is very disappointing that you could be that prideful. You could be right, Who knows. But to say anyone who doesn't believe what you believe isn't a serious Christian is just not right. Both these debaters made some great points! Both are great christian examples.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, ESPECIALLY of THOSE THAT BELIEVE.
its unfortunate that Dr. Brown makes his opening statement committing a very common exegetical error in not allowing context to define words. he believes if "world" means one thing in one passage, then it MUST mean the exact same thing in every passage that it is used.
even if we grant him his defining of 'world' in john 3:16, only those who are the believing ones will obtain eternal life and romans 8:6-9 and eph 2:8-9 tell us where that ability to believe comes from.
honestly though, with what Dr. Brown is advocating in saying that God died for the sins of every single person, wouldn't we then conclude that God has a desire to save every single person but ultimately doesnt?
wouldn't this then make God.....a failure??
WuAgent Bingo! That's it.th-cam.com/video/MqA3tyBpN4E/w-d-xo.html
Everything that happens in history has been decreed/Predestined before the world was created see Eph 1:11, Proverbs 16:33 and Amos 3:6. And yes even when terrible things happen, I know it's hard for some people to accept but look what happened when David sinned against God and one of Davids punishments was that God told him that he was going to use Davids own son to shame his Father by Absalom Absalom doing something immoral to his Fathers concubines in front of all of Israel, see 2 Samuel 12:11-12 God said "Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight. Indeed you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun." Notice how God said "I WILL DO THIS THING."That was fulfilled in 2 Samuel 16:21-22. Jesus did not die for every single person ever and Jesus didn't die to make people savable. He died to save his elect. In John 17:9 Jesus said that he does not pray for the world. The word world is used in different contexts, in that context he's talking about the non elect. In John 3:16 world means that he purchased people from every tribe, tongue and nation Rev 5:9 and for the children of God scattered abroad John 11:52. Some have been "long beforehand marked out for condemnation" Jude 4 and "appointed to doom." 1 Peter 2:8. About Pharaoh God said “For this VERY PURPOSE I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires." Rom 9:17-18. Jesus said "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Matthew 11:25-27. So, 2 Pet 3:9 the "not willing that any should perish" if you read that letter in context, 2 Pet 1:1 says "To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." As far as salvation for all men verses, Paul was refuting the false notion of his time that God was only desiring to save just the Jews and 1 Tim 2:2 says to pray "for kings and all who are in authority" because as humans WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE SO WE PRAY FOR EVERYONE! That's what it means in verse 4 by saying "all men." Amos 3:2 God said "of all the nations of the earth I have only known you." For centuries God passed over the majority of humankind because this verse isn't about knowledge it's about relationship. And it isn't because God foresaw Israel was more righteous then the other nations because sometimes Israel was more sinful then the pagan nations see 2 Kings 21:9. Only those who were predestined to be saved will be see Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:4-5, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:11-23, John 6:37. 1 Samuel 3:14 God said “Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.” That's Limited atonement.
No one will read all you wrote.
Jesus said , that he came for the sinners , before the well doers .+++
The elect are sinners before being saved. Now the saved don't love for the sin but for God.
Shouldn’t be any debate Jesus died for all, these are pointless debates.
This debate is great to listen to, hard to watch. The moderator has absolutely the worst fashion I have ever seen and I can't keep cringing. Lord, take me now. Please. Dear God. Please.
was looking for this comment hahaha
Love both these guys. White's points and exegesis (using that term loosely here) was fantastic.
Limited atonement is contrary to what's clearly stated in scripture. So id say it's eissegesis
Here is absolute proof Calvinism is NOT Biblical: In Jeremiah 19:5 God says, “They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did NOT COMMAND or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” 2nd Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is…not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.” and yet, it also has Jesus saying, "Broad is the road that leads to destruction (hell) and many are on it, but straight and narrow is the road that leads to life (Heaven) and few ever find it."
I'll follow Jesus, not Calvin
does Jesus intercede to the Father for the unbeliever? nope, but for His bride
No believers are assigned the role of praying for unbelievers. Paul said:
2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for ALL men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.(1 Timothy 2:1)
We can see in verse 4 that we are not just to pray for people in strategic positions but that these prayers are the means whereby God reaches out to ALL people with the message of salvation.
Dr. Brown wins... because mustache.
You get the sense, from the Arminian perspective, that God is somehow obligated to provide salvation for a dead world. So Christ died for dead people then asks the dead to respond? ??? The dead natural man CANNOT respond. He's dead, the Gospel is foolishness to him he receives not the things of God, he can't know them and he's spiritually discerned. I Cor. 2;14. Considering that why is ANYONE in heaven or hell? Has to be God's sovereign choice! Ps 115:3; Isa. 46:10
that's not what Dr.Brown said...he stated emphatically that Christ's death was in behalf of the entire world..."Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"...in other words...whether it's prior to or after the CROSS..the basis of having faith was Jesus dying for the world...The Law and Prophets teached spiritual truths of the Messiah...the Redeemer to come...
Having that said...some rejected the message of salvation, prior to or after the cross, and as a result are now in hell..these people Jesus no longer intercedes for because their faith are sealed...but for the living...believers or unbelievers..all have access to Christ for repentance and intercession...
Nayali Figueredo
My good brother, I didn't say Dr. Brown said that. But "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" i assume you're quoting Rev. 13:8? Not sure but if... clearly implicated in the passage is both preordination and predestination.The people slain were those who's names were NOT written in the Lamb's book from/before the foundation of.... Says nothing of "for" the world. But what I did say was you get the "sense" that at the heart of Arminianism is the idea of "fairness". That in order for God to be "fair" salvation has to be generalized and not specific. I may be wrong but the sense I get. Aside from that I'm saying by very nature of God's sovereignty and man's inability to respond outside the enabling of the Spirit it has to be limited/specific and not general. Having said that we seem to forget that the bible is not to kind about the ability of the natural man. Man is in judgement because he is in Adam. "By nature children of wrath" Eph 2:3. I'm sure your familiar with those many passages...and keeping that in mind the fact that are in heaven and hell it has to be God sovereign choice of who's saved or not. Because...The world can't respond! God Bless you my brother!
Leviticus 16:17 " When he goes in to make atonement in the holy place, no one shall be in the tent of meeting until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself and for his household and for all the assembly of Israel.
Assembly=noun
a GROUP of people GATHERED together in one place for a common purpose.
Michael Brown's prayer: thank you God that I had the good sense and spiritual sensitivity to appreciate what your Son did on the cross and to believe on him. I thank you God that I chose you you did not choose me. I thank you God that you will have mercy on who I say you will have mercy on. I thank you God that you said husbands love your wives even as Christ loved everybody and gave himself for everybody.
Why do you mock? Does it further the debate? I could turn that prayer around just as easy.
I mock because Michael Brown rejects the Gospel. It is heresy. Predestination unto salvation, God's sovereign power to save whom He will when He chooses, the particular death of Christ for His sheep only are core watermarks of genuine Biblical Christianity.
Search: 4345819 on youtube for helpful teaching.
Roy Lange 1) How does Brown reject the Gospel? Define your claim.
2) How has Brown propagated heresy? That is a serious accusation to make. Define your claim.
I could say that 'Limited Atonement' rejects the Gospel and that it too is heresy? But what would that prove? Claims mean very little, nor do 'Statements of Faith'. You make a claim and 'Statement of Faith', but do not substantiate it with Scripture. However, any learned and open minded Christian would admit the Scriptures can affirm both views.
You say "helpful teaching". I have read Augustine, Calvin, Owen, (Synod of Dort) Westminster Confession (Chapter 3 Paragraph 6) and modern Calvinists, (MacArthur, Piper, Nicole, Sproul etc) and am familiar with the Augustine & Pelagian Controversy.
Simon Peter Sutherland
Brown rejects the Gospel in the sense that He rejects the clearly stated doctrines of the truth about how an individual is saved. The Bible says it is based on God's unconditional election of His good pleasure and will, and God reprobates whom He will. The whole theme of the Bible is divine election. Particular, or limited atonement is repeatedly and plainly set forth in Scripture for any honest reader. If you read Owen and know the position of so called TULIP, and reject it, you reject the very framework and watermarks of the genuine Gospel, that no serious and honest Bible student can dispute.
Roy Lange 2.
I would also like to add that you say to reject " TULIP" is to reject the Gospel. Are you willing to affirm that view in light of the information that neither John Wycliffe, or the 16th century Reformers William Tyndale, Thomas Cranmer, Martin Luther, John Frith and so forth all rejected or denied the Gospel because they clearly did not agree with a 'Limited Atonement' or 'Irrisistible Grace'.
I realize they were pre 'Synod of Dort' and the systematization of 'Tulip', but their writings affirm they saw no 'Limit' to the redemptive purposes of God in Christ. Even John Bunyan in the 17th century did not agree to 'Dorts' recent affirmation of 'Limited Atonement'. Because Calvin was vague on the issue, there is a case to say he never taught 'Limited Atonement'. In his commentaries Calvin appears to affirm the scriptures reveal that God had no limited intentions to the redemptive purposes of God.
Concerning Romans 5: 18 Calvin wrote the following; "He makes this favor common to all, because it is propounded to all, and not because it is in reality extended to all; for though Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, and is offered through God’s benignity indiscriminately to all, yet all do not receive Him." (Calvin's Commentaries Volume X1X. P 211. Romans 5: 18)
This and many more texts affirm that there is a case to claim that even Calvin himself may not have taught 'Limited Atonement'. Even John Owen in 'Death of Death' refers to Calvin only once. Why is that?
1 John 2:1-2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
It is so clear! It cannot be stated any clearer than that! Salvation is available to each and every human being who trusts in Christ because Christ died for the sins of the whole world!