Can McDavid ever catch Gretzky as the NHL GOAT? | OverDrive
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ส.ค. 2024
- Bryan Hayes and Jeff O’Neill from OverDrive are joined by hockey reporter Jonas Siegel to discuss where Connor McDavid ranks among the greatest players of all-time since 1967 and if can he ever come close to Wayne Gretzky.
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I don't think he will hit Gretzky records but think we are also playing in a whole different level of hockey in this era, he is by far the best player to play since Gretzky. Sid Ovy watched in their prime and they are crazy amazing talents but McDavid even stands out next to them.
He could catch Yzerman's 155 points in a single season this year. At this day and age, that's insane!
Only Gretzky and Lemiuex had more.
Do not agree..... you forget about Mario.... i consider mario was more dominant than mc david,
BUT, he few more years like this year, a stanley cup, and connor will be on the same level....
@@fredbmurphy Mario Mario Mario to aid the 3 above !!!
@@paspep absolutely ... Mario had Jagr ... Wayne had Messier, Kurri, Anderson, Coffey ... Bobby had 1 good leg ... hmmmmmmmmmm
@@brucewayne3602 I take it you're a Bobby Orr fan. Noone would deny, that if a Mt Rushmore was made for hockey, the obvious 4 would be: Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr and Howe; no matter who comes afterwards. Connor is special, and his numbers would put him well above 170 points in the mid 80s.
There's a 20 year period where only Greztky, Lemieux and Jagr won the Art Ross. I think Jagr belongs in that conversation with the absolute best players.
Jagr is 5 on the NHL 99. I think they forgot to mention him when they were going over the guys they would consider undisputed greatest in the game for a stretch, but they landed on McDavid moving up to 8, so they still had the top 7 of Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Crosby, Jagr, Ovi, Hasek in some order and then McDavid.
Posted this before they started discussing Jagr. Either way, I think he belongs in that top 8 group with the guys I mentioned. The next group of players on the NHL 99 list are all excellent too, but definitely a tier down. McDavid is one of the only guy that feels notably not in at least the right tier. Plenty of guys I'm sure you could quibble over exact spot, but McDavid should be a tier up.
Jagr getting a raw deal in this conversation. He won the art ross in 1999 and only played 63 games. Winning 4 art ross trophies in a row, puts you in that elite bracket.
Yeah, him and Esposito were to easily looked over. They aren't Gretzky/Lemieux tier, but they should be in the tier they are talking about in my opinion.
Jagr , great as he was, wasn't even the best player for Pittsburgh... NOT EVEN CLOSE...He doesn't belong in this conversation
When they first listed names I wondered where Jagr was from his production. I would have Fedorov and Forsberg too for all round greatness, but then the list starts getting a little long.
@@berryscott3590 how about for the 3 years during Lemieux's retirement? He was definitely the best player for Pittsburgh in those years.
@@kentmartin9289 For sure...
I'm an oilers fan, mcdavid is greatest individual talent I've ever seen,and I was around for those 80s oilers cups. No disrespect to the great one my favorite player of all time.
Yeah leafs fans here McDavid is obviously the most talented player to ever touch ice
@@erictzogas2580 I saw Gretzky play at MLG a couple of times; I hated him because he used to destroy the Leafs. I saw Gordie Howe too; McDavid is good, fast skater, good shooter, but he'll never win a Cup with the Oilers. And he'll never punch the shit out of someone the way Gordie did.
@@melvynobrien6193 I saw wayne too ive been a hockey fan since a little boy in the 70s Wayne wpuld stand no chance if he set foot on the ice today. The talent is just far superior now than it ever was. The goaltending was terrible i look back at those days fondly but the sport has evolved so much ints incredible. Wayne is dial up internet compared to McDavid...but i agree Mcdavid will never win a cup he can carry a team hockey doesnt work that way. The oilers defense is trash especially Nurse and goaltending isnt great either.
@@thrash208 you can't say that.
@@dnice4145 I watched it happen yes i can say that. Go watch Waynes highlights and then go watch McDavids and come back and tell me whos the superior hockey player.
who would have guessed a guy named O-Dog would be confused and angered by math.
🤣
Jeff Oneill decent hockey player
He seems like more of a blunt instrument.
Good to hear Hasek mentioned. Best goalie ever, and I have him top 5
mcdavid might be more flashy, but in todays game there is no way he reaches gretzky’s points record
Yes but scoring is down all around so that’s why you can’t compare. Gretzky statistically obviously won’t be matched, and mcdavid is obviously the goat talent wise, its hard to compare because of eras
Obviously it would be era adjusted. It was twice as easy to score when Gretzky was in his prime.
If Mcdavid becomes the 2nd player in history to hit 2000 points(he's on track to) and he wins a couple cups. Yeah, McDavid is the greatest hockey player ever.
@@zigfield723 McDavid’s better imo but he’ll be lucky if he wins 2 cups max. There’s way too much competition now and even Crosby only had 3 with a superior team.
@@lebumjames1373 he may never get a cup. Look at luongo or price never got a cup which is kinda as shock.
No because today is way harder way better competition, unlike back in the day the goalies were dog water, and no one could skate how players skate nowadays
im so glad people are finally realizing hasek is by far the best goalie to ever play
LOL...by far?
@Humbert Smith yes by far don't just ask the question back up your reasoning as to why not, and try not to use stanley cups because that argument is trash and it takes a team to win those.
@@sojiroseta98 You just torch your own argument by saying "by far". I loved Hasek but human nature just can't say "a great goalie...among the best ever". Pathetic.
@Humbert Smith No, its clear that he's the best by far, he never had the teams Roy and Brodeur or Dryden had in front of them till real late with the Wings, what other goalie won 6 vezinas in 8 years? Which other goalie won back to back MVP? 🤔, no Hasek is not JUST amongst the greats he is the greatest goalie by far. Period.
@@sojiroseta98 couldn't say it better myself, 💯 by far
It’s who was most dominant in their era and the question is only between Orr and Gretzky. No one else was more dominant in their era. Ever.
Lemieux was more dominant.
You would need to know the total number of goals and assists each and every player in the NHL had in each and every year McDavid and Gretzky played, plot all that info on a series of bell curve charts, and then measure how far ahead of the curve each of them were throughout their carries, then compare the two.
I'd like to see McDavid play in the Gretzky era
Connor mcdavid would have 10 points per game in the 80s
@Powell Games I would add Jagr in that list too
@@ryanlauzon177 so stupid
McDavid is the most skilled player of all time.
Really how so?
And it's not even close.
Define skill. Skating with puck handling? Yes! Everything else, Size, strenght, shot, accuracy, passing I,Q. with the ability to dominate across eras is Mario. Time will tell.
@@Murdock1 Nah early Pavel Bure was better.And he did it on heavy skates. Give him modern skates and he will top Gretzky's point totals.
Would be interesting to see McDavid with Gretzky’s heavy Daoest skates and his lumbering wooden Titan stick, and two line off sides, and no obstruction rules. Then let’s compare them lol
Would like to see prime Gretzky try and score a single goal against a current goaltender. Then let’s compare them lol
@@Bruce918you mean floppy goaltending. My favourites were the acrobats, Mike Palmatere and Grant Fuhr. Had Pele Lindbergh lived, he might have offered a lot greatness as a stand up goaltender. The dominant style for so long. No Patrick Roy fan.
@@Bruce918 Will agree. As someone under 40, I've only recently started going back and watching the old footage. I am actually very surprised at how poor the goaltending seemed in those days.
Having said that, I believe scorers are scorers, and they will always be scorers, because - regardless of which era they play in - they will always find a way to put the puck in the net and put points on the board.
I have no doubt that Gretzky would have been able to find a way to score against today's tenders. Would he have as many points.... Possibly not. But all of the other players would have even less as well. Regardless, he still would be head/shoulders above everyone else around him.
Just like McDavid is today.
Gretzky was so far ahead of his peers it was unbelievable. He won the scoring race one year by about 100 points. Nobody was even close until Gretzky lit a fire under Lemieux’s butt when they played together in the Canada Cup. He elevated every player around him and was continually gift wrapping scoring opportunities for his teammates that they often missed because they weren’t expecting it. That’s how creative he was, even his teammates were surprised. This was most evident when he was traded to LA.
I agree. its not the point totals its how much better Gretzky was then anyone else in the league. McDavids 1st 7 years in the league He out scored 2nd place that season by (2022 16pts, 2021 8pts, 2020 21pts, 2017 6pts, 2016 11pts) 2019 2018 and 2015 he was out scored by others. Gretzky out scored 2nd place by (1979 12pts, 1980 29pts, 1981 65pts, 1982 72 pts, 1983 79pts, 1984 73 pts, 1985 74 pts, 1986 75 pts.) and in 1982 1984 1985 1986 Gretzky had same or more assists then the 2 highest scorer had total points. so that means if Gretzky never scored a goal that season he still would have one the art ross. No other player in NHL history has make a mockery of the league the way Gretzky did. There is a reason Gretzky is not just the Goat of hockey but the Goat of all sports.
@@cwpucks1188 Context matters. Hockey was much different in the 80s goalies were encouraged to stand up the butterfly wasnt really a thing. The pads on a a goalie back then was so much smaller. This made it easier to score and to hand off assists. If you stuck wayne gretsky into the modetn era he wouldnt sniff his own records and hed honestly look pretty mediocre as a player. Look at his highlight reels compared to Mcdavid. Mcdavid is clearly the better, more technical, more skilled hockey player Wayne just lived in the right era and for is day was ahead of his time. McDavid wont touch Waynes record but (as long as no injuries or illnesses happen) he is the most proficient hockey player in terms of technique and skill of the modern age and will likely be the GOAT when era adjusted even if he doesnt touch the records or even wins a cup.
@@thrash208 just stop it with your "he'd honestly look pretty mediocre" nonsense. How would Pavel Bure or Peter Forsberg do in today's NHL? Watch Pavel Bure highlights and you might think he would do well in today's NHL. Then you look at their season pointn totals in the years where their careers overlapped, or the points per game if you prefer since sometimes one or the other had a shortened season. The only year Bure had a higher points per game was Gretzky's last season (when Gretzky was 38 and Bure was 27) and the only year Bure had a higher total points was in 1992-93 when Gretzky only played 45 games due to a major back injury. So a past his prime with a busted up back Wayne Gretzky out performed Pavel Bure throughout the 90's.
Right, I mentioned Peter Forsberg as well. Forsberg and Gretzky have pretty similar numbers in their overlapping years as well, despite it being young Forsberg and old Gretzky.
Anyways, the whole easier to score in the 80's thing is true, but that doesn't make it easier for one guy to have more assists in a season than anyone else has points. It doesn't make it easier for one guy to have the most goals, the most assists, and the highest plus/minus in the league, let alone do it 5 times. It doesn't make it easier to win 9 Hart trophies either. Even if you ignore numbers like 215 points in a season or 92 goals in a season, there are plenty of ways to see the sheer dominance Gretzky had over everyone else, and nobody has dominated remotely close to as much as Gretzky.
@@kentmartin9289 You get it. One thing I would add is that scoring in the eighties was about 25% higher than this season. So 215 points season is still 170 points season today. And yea, the difference to the rest of was insane. Some people don't seem to get it.
@@thrash208 McDavid is probably faster and has better hands, but hockey is about scoring, it doesn't matter if Gretzky couldn't skate at all. (Gretzky was quite fast btw) Only the production matters. And I would like to see how McD skated with 1982 skates. Or how would he handle the puck with a 700 grams wooden stick. And if you era adjust the points then McDavid is getting close this year, but he is not there yet. He needs to play at least for another 6 to 7 150-170 points seasons. That said McDavid is insanely good!
Sure everyone scored more in the 80s, but still no where near what Wayne was doing. He used to win the art Ross by 50+ points.
Exactly and that’s what mcdavid is doing this year
70+ points 5 years, and 65 points another year. It's absolutely insane. There were 3 years he had enough points to secure the scoring title before his 50th game. He had more points than the eventual runner up after 42, 45, and 48 games... not to mention other seasons where he only needed 51, 53, and 56 games.
Sure, but Wayne also didn’t face the level of competition or goaltending that’s seen in the league now. He would not be scoring 170+ points in today’s era lol.
@@lebumjames1373 That is the wrong way to look at it. If you take today’s players and raise them in the 70s, 60s, whatever. They are not better then the players if the time. They all had equal starts, and Gretzky dominated more then mcdavid did in his era.
@@josholsen2108 Mcdavids competitors are closer to him abit then Gretzky imo. I checked scoring leaderboards of the 80s after I made this comment and 50 point lead was an understatement. There is multiple seasons where he is 80 points ahead of second place lol
Jagr is a five time recipient of the Art Ross Trophy. For four consecutive years, he led the league in scoring. I think he deserves to be in the conversation.
Goalies now are wayyyy better then 80s and 90s.
no they're not, hasek, roy, brodeur all played in the 90's
Today pro hockey is more a pussy League, it was wayyyyy more physical in the Gretzky era
Everything is better in today’s hockey - players, equipment, training and coaching but innate skill is what you’re born with. If Gretzky played today he would do what he did best back then - find a way to score and elevate the play of his team.
@@nadaduo1765 just look at the league leaders in save percentage this year vs 1990. Matt Murray ranks 18th today and would have lead the league in 1990.
@@thebigpicture2032 he wouldn't have even remotely close too the point totals he did back then
Gretzky himself said that it was much easier to score goals back then compared to today due to the goalies being extremely athletic these days. He said that back then the goalies were overweight because they couldn’t skate and now they’re even more skilled than the players are. So I tend to believe that’s why it’s difficult to catch his records
Gretzky himself is notorious for downplaying his greatness with an imbedded old school modesty.
Sticks and skates also sucked vs today. Ovi wouldn't be scoring the goals he does today with 1982 wooden stick. And again, it was only Gretzky scoring the insane numbers. They scored about 25% goals per game in the eighties vs today, not 100% more as a lot of people seem to think.
@@johnj8069 exactly. Check out the top 10 points scorers from 1986/87:
1) Gretzky: 183 points
2) Kurri: 108 points
3) Lemieux: 107
4) Messier: 107
5) Gilmour: 105
6) Ciccarelli: 103
7) Howerchuk: 100
8).Goulet: 96
9) Bourque: 95
10) Francis 95
Looks a lot like today’s top 10 points scorers. Only difference is you have ONE guy destroying the rest of them by a ridiculous margin. Gretzky won the scoring title that year with his assists alone (4th time he did that), and somehow managed to do that while SIMULTANEOUSLY leading the NHL in goals while also winning the scoring title with his assists alone (2nd time he did that). No one in NHL history (besides him) has ever done either of those two things.
@@michaelgriffiths8068 But but but...he played with all those other great Oilers! Oh wait, then how come THEY didn't have 183 points in 1987? There is ZERO argument against Gretzky being the greatest ever by a wide margin.
These three guys are clown if they think mcDavid isn’t anywhere near Gretzky’s skill level. NHL today compared to back then is night and day. Look at Gretzky highlights look at mcDavid highlights. Tell me Gretzky could pull some of those deeks on today’s players.
You can’t really compare the two it’s two way different eras of hockey it’s not a fair or real comparison
A 9th grader understands statistics better than Jeff O’Neil does
Gretzky is the only player to break the 2,000 point mark. I'd like to see McDavid become the second player to surpass that mark.
he came so close to 2,000 assists too
These discussions are so difficult, take away salary cap and let mcdavid play along side like matthews and have makar on defense, he would rack up gretzky numbers and if there were less teams along with that the cups would come. Adjusting for era is dumb we will constantly get better and better. Mcdavid is the best hockey player of all time and you know what 20 years in the future there is going to be some new kid that is far better than mcdavid ever was because the game will have evolved.
Gretzky was better at 16 at the World Juniors, considerably better, than McDavid was at 17... Gretzky was the better player, irrespective of eras... PERIOD... AINEC...
@@berryscott3590 Im sorry but do you actually believe if you took gretzky in his prime and time travelled him to today that he would actually be good? He wouldnt the game has changed so much, people are faster, have better hands, goalies are far better than they ever have been before so you have to be so much more accurate with where you shoot the puck. gretzky would be an average player at best.
@@brycejonathan384 Gordie Howe played to age 51 didn't he? Teemu Salanne won the mvp at the 2014 Olympics if memory serves, & he was pushing 40 (too lazy to look it up)... When Howe was asked who the best player he played against was ? He said Orr... Teemu would doubtless say Gretzky... Gretzky , in his prime, would lead todays NHL in scoring by a wide margin... Again you lead the World Jrs in scoring at 16, that's in a league all its own...
...The ONLY thing your comments tell me is that you need to buy a couple of vowels from Vanna White (Hint: Pick U & E)....that way, maybe someday... you'll have a CL-U-E ;)
@@berryscott3590 Clearly you dont get it, when those players answer that question they would look back to those players being so much better than their peers at the time, they dont take into account how the game has grown. Everytime there is an all time talent, people emulate their game and the entire game grows to match that person. You need to get out f your nostalgia and realize your childhood heros would suck ass today. You are blinded by your emotions.
People are so much more skilled today then ever before and kids now are going to watch mcdavid play and figure out ways to improve on his game to be even better in the future. Thats how things work.
@@brycejonathan384 LOL kid you have no idea what you're talking about. Gretzky was scoring hat tricks in the playoffs near the end of his career in the dead puck era. What do you think he'd do in today's game? He'd have a feast with no 2 line pass rules, 3 on 3 OT and modern equipment. Pure ignorance on your part to disrespect the greatest player in NHL history the way you just did. Today's players wouldn't last 2 seconds on the ice in the 80s. They'd be crying for mommy to save them. And players are definitely not "more skilled" today. Quite the opposite. The league is diluted. Players like Gretzky and Messier would STEAMROLL anyone in today's weak sauce league.
McDavid is on track to be the 2nd player in NHL history to hit 2000 points. Enough said.
It’s pretty obvious that Mcdavid is the most talented of all time, but surprisingly a lot of people don’t think that talent = best. Everyone has their own definition and it seems like the majority of people think that best stats = best. Now it’s also pretty obvious that it was way easier to score in the 90s as there would be multiple players at 140-150 points. Nowadays you only see like 3 players hitting 100 points. That’s pretty much why, unfortunately for Mcdavid, some people only look at statistics to say who’s better, when you can pretty much look at highlights and see who’s “better”
WhErEs HiS cUp ThO?!?!?!
Half of Gretzky’s highlights are him hitting a slap shot into swiss cheese goalies 10 feet in front of the net lol McDavid’s the better adjusted for era.
One NHL Player actually won : Best Offensive Player of the Year & Best Defensive Player Of the Year. In the same year. And he did it twice. This is the equivalent of a MLB Pitcher winning 30 games and winning the Batting Title. That man is Robert Gordon Orr.
No where near McDavid honestly
McJesus will reach a 1000 points by the end of next season, he will only be 27 years of age. He could become the second player in history to reach 2000 points by the end of his playing career. 🤯
Gretz was the fastest to reach a 1000 points (in only 424 games) and was also the 2nd fastest to score 1000 points by scoring his 2nd 1000 points in almost the same number of games (433 games) - breaking the all time point mark by the same age McDavid is now. Age 27, all time leading scorer. And then he went on to score another 1000 points lol.
its wild people cant grasp the concept of era adjusted stats. its definitely not a perfect conversion by any means, but its pretty obvious there are valid arguments for looking at era adjusted statistics
Not an Oilers fan here, but McDavid is nothing like I've seen in my 60 years.
If McDavid would have played in the 1980s, the numbers would have approached Gretzky. Wayne was still the best hockey player ever even though McDavid is a brilliant talent McDavid has the most talent ever
He needs to stay healthy and continue with this level of production. Then maybe he has a chance.
He’s already better at gretz
Jagr won 4 straight Art Ross trophies, proving he was undisputed best player in the world for at least 3 years straight.
Connor Mcdavid is Goated., when his career ends. No one will compare, maybe Gretzky because he’s an oilers too 😂
McDavid is more talented than gretzky as for as overall talent goes. His speed , his hockey sense, his imagination. That being said, Gretzky saw the game before it happened, he passed to nowhere and there was a person in the open. His hockey sense is legendary but he could not play on McDavids wing. McDavid is a step ahead of everyone expect Draisatl. And Draisatl just waits for that perfect set up when McDavid drags the opposing team where he wants. I saw both of these players their prime. Gretzky did things that have never been seen before. I watched every game Gretzky played with the Oilers. Now McDavid is doing things that have never been seen before. This is a very tough comparison. AllI can say is enjoy the player that is still playing at at this elite level and enjoy
There is no comparison lol. Gretzky is miles ahead of McDavid.
McDavid is top 5 already. enough said
Hot take*** Mcdavid Better than Lidstrom is honestly a very tough one. Linstrom is my D man GOAT. For him to be considered as highly as he is, with 0 flash to his game is ASTOUNDING CONSISTANCY. the guy didn't make mistakes and won cups. The absolute perfect defenseman. Top 5 player of all time and the most underrated legend imo.
Even Gretzky has said that he couldn’t have scored as many goals today as he did back in the 70s.
Last year, Connor McDavid scored 153 points. The second leading scorer had 128. In 1984 when the second leading scorer had 126 points, Gretzky had 205. For the 6 year span of 1982 to 1987, Gretz averaged 73 more points than whoever was the number two guy. When McDavid starts to consistently outscore his competition by 70 points, he can start being compared to Gretz.
Funny enough, in 1984 Gretz had the same 153 points by January (during his 51 game point streak). Could have quit right then and still destroyed 2nd place (Coffey’s 126 points). By January, smh…
He will never pass the great one in points. But he is the best player alive today and the best player to ever play all around
If he will never pass Gretzky, he’s not the best player to ever play
@@coryholte5305 who would win 1 v 1 both in their prime? I’m picking the guy that can shoot the puck off the ice
@@nateradcliffe9562 - you never saw Gretzky play if you honestly believe he didn’t pick top corners like no tomorrow.
@@nateradcliffe9562 Give them modern equipment & a time machine & 5, in their prime, Orrs would destroy 5 McDavids... Beat the crap out of them, if need be, too
@@berryscott3590 that just isn’t true💀💀
Tim Thomas? Lmao don’t insult Hasek like that!!😂
Thomas entered the NHL late, playing in Sweden prior to this, if memory serves... He was very good, definitely one of the best goalies in the league for a few years...Won a cup... Then while still seemingly at his peak, he retired... Who knows what kind of numbers he might have put up, if he had been given a legit shot at the NHL, early in his career?... Tim Thomas is an outlier... Some guys fall thru the cracks... and Thomas is the poster boy for this...
PS: Admittedly, Hasek didn't have a chance to play in the NHL early in his career either...
Im not a major hockey buff being an Aussie but watching back on highlights of 80s n 90s hockey I was really surprised how much less pressure there was and how open it was to score. Goalies these days are twice as padded up and heaps more athletic. They seem to block far more of the goal just with their size. I dont think anyone can ever catch Gretzkey. You have to compare a player on a bell curve compared to those in his era to show how far in front and I reckon Gretzkey was miles in front for years
Connor is the best player I've ever seen in my 65 years on the plant
I'm 64 and Orr was better than Gretzky ... who was better than McDavid
@@berryscott3590 you can’t genuinely believe that. Literally watch mcdavjds highlights and compare them to the former greats. It isn’t even close. McDavid is far better than anyone
@@intellivisionmaster7999 'Every player in the league is better than Gretzky?'
This constitutes what you consider, a cogent argument? Sorry to burst your bubble ... But you're what the ancients used to call...'WRONG!'
Crosby played with Lemieux and Lemieux , in his prime, was considerably better than Crosby...Crosby's still playing, of course, & he's still one of the best players in the league... You can make a good argument for Gretzky over Mario, & Orr over Gretzky...
...Gretzky in his thirties , bad back and all, was still outscoring guys like Pavel Bure... Temu Salanne, far from his prime, was MVP of the 2014 Olympics... McDavid's not running away with the scoring title like Gretzky did... Moreover, he was out-performed , head to head, in last year's playoffs by Makar...
Your argument, if you can call it that, is that of a hapless 'sheeple' following the herd and doubtless extends to a wide variety of things, which goes a long way towards explaining why geopolitics is in such a mess... but I eye (shades of the ALL SEEING EYE) digress...
...It's called 'RECENCY-BIAS' kid... Might wanna look that up...
@@berryscott3590 no he wasn'T and wayne is still the best. Mc David seems to be even better than Bobby
@@berryscott3590you must be inbred bc McDavid is the best player to ever live
Top 5. GOATS: 1) Lemieux; 2. McDavid. 3. Gretzky; 4. Hasek; 5. Orr; 6. Jagr; 7. Richard; 8. Ovechkin. 9. Yzerman; 10. Messier.
Do not forget the the rocket,
From 1944, to ??? 1950, he was the absolute sensation of the league, even gordi howe admited " he was unstopable" .....
I never saw a Gretzky or Lemieux highlight as impressive as a casual Mcdavid coast to coast play.
I watched gretzky i watched borque and hasek, Lemieux etc. Mc David is the best player to lace up skates in the NHL, Gretzky is very close in skill. gretz maybe has better hockey IQ all around but mcdavid is more physically skilled. no one else even comes close to these 2
I watched Orr play even as a Junior... Orr was better than Gretzky, who was better than McDavid... Gretzky dominated the World Juniors at 16... Something McDavid couldn't do at 17... All u 'McDavid's the best ever' guys are just blowing smoke... Hells Bells... Makar was better than McDavid, one on one, in last years playoffs (better edge work for sure)
@@berryscott3590 you consistently have the worst takes in this comment section
Brett Hull had the best season of all time for goals. 86 goals in 78 games and 2nd best was 51. No one will top that and McDavid isn't remotely close. And goal scoring isn't lower today as Drai Rantanen and Pasta will top 51
I don’t care what anyone says but Mcdavid (in my opinion) is the most skilled player to ever play the game
Lemieux was more physically skilled than Gretzky as well…but neither of them have Gretzky’s vision. Lemieux wouldn’t be able to score a 163 assists in a season in his wildest dreams. The most Mario scored was 114 assists (the only time he ever had a 100 assist season). And he played in the same era as Gretz too. Gretzky had ELEVEN straight 100+ assist seasons. No one else has more than one lol (just Orr and Lemieux). Let that sink in.
In order for McDavid to catch Gretzky's point record, he would need to have multiple 200+ point seasons (like, at least 4).
An NHL team plays 82 games in a regular season. So he'd need to be consistently putting up 2-3 points, every single game, without missing a beat, without injury, etc.
He's having a record season right now, but there's no way he gets to 200 points in a month and a half left of the season. 150 is possible though.
I don't think its realistic with the current structure of the NHL for him to reach Gretzky's point totals. It was a different era.
points were easier to make at that time i wouldnt look at points i would look at raw skills
Points were easier at that time if you were a phenom.
Mcdavid getting 150 points is pretty equal to Gretzky getting 200.
Im sure if u looked at the league in goals per game per team its definitely 25% higher then it is today. So just that simple math comparision says it is. I dont think anyone will argue the goalies much better now. With more gear. But that could be equaled by the better sticks and skates now.
Another thing is the difference of hik to other players (Not Drai as hes a teammate). If mcdavid has 150 and the next best on another team has 110 then thats the difference from Gretzkys 200 to lets say Yzerman or maybe Hawerchucks 135. Or whoever is 2nd from another team.
Bernie nicholls and Kurri benefited greatly from gretzky. Draisaitl is also. Which shows how great mcdavid is. Mcdavid is so great his plays and stars has helped his teammate win a art ross/hart.
I have mcdavid 3 all time.
Gretzky, Lemieux and Mcdavid. And its super close between the 3.
When mcdavid retires he will probably be 2nd all time in points and near 650-700, goals. 2000 points is my guess
Nope because its much easier to score now then early - mid 2010s.
@@rt-rd5of what are u even talking about?
@@rediscoveryrecords1348 There are 12 players now on pace for 100+ points. There were 0 in 2014-15.
@@rt-rd5of and there was about 30 100 point players in 93-94. Whats your point again? Im comparing gretzkys 81-92 era to since mcdavud came in.
That era is still about 25% higher scoring then this era. So my point is 150 points is like getting 200. Which is the 25%
@@rt-rd5of You are 100% correct, and you will get tons of arguement against you by conjobs, Moma2s NewAge Hockey System is what catalysed the current NHL scoring increase and is what allows mcdavid to do his majic..the NHS was first used on the ice at an Oilers practice by Pat Quinn in 2009 and every Stanley Cup winning Team since then except the Capitols have used the NHS.
He may be able to surpass Gretzky in goals but his total points will never be beaten. Goalies have gotten so much better you will never see anyone put up number like Gretzky did ever again.
I know they’re comparing era, but if mcdavid played in the Gretzky era he would legitimately score 20 goals a game. Not exaggeration. 500 points a year
He's certainly making a case for it!!
You see his production increase every single season.
Anything's possible 🤷♂️
He already is the goat
The NHL IS MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR tEAMS TO PRODUCE OFFENSE @ 1980S LEVELS AND THERE IS SOLID EVIDENCE OF THIS ALL OVER THE PLACE STATISTICLLY BUT THE STATS NERDS DONT WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT. Yes Connor can beat Waynes records if things go his way,even now he could be scoring 80 goals a year and should be,Mcdavid should be scoring 20+ SH goals every year. Keeping Neon Leon and the current cast for a few years will really help Connor continue to evolve upwardly points wise till hes getting 200 a year.
It's hard to believe with Gretzky's insane numbers that anyone would even dare suggest he's not the greatest ever, but this is what always happens when enough time passes and the kiddies who never saw him play think the "flavor of the month" (in this case: McDavid) is suddenly the GOAT. These youngsters have no clue how great Gretzky was and should be embarrassed to even suggest McDavid in even in Gretzky's league. As good as McDavid is, he is not even half as talented as Gretzky was. Gretzky was on a level never seen in pro sports history, never mind the NHL.
McDavid and Players of this Era do not have Gretzkys killer instinct and unstoppable thirst for blood, Wayne would utterly destroy teams and dissect them in horrible ways and drive his stats through the roof. When the Oiler won it was usually EPIC. THe ONLY Player in the NHL to show Gretzkys elite exact Game management skills has been Sam Gagner on his 8 point night.RNH thinks and plays like him to but Sammy proved Players can replicate Waynes greatness and if you can do it once you can do it again and better every time therefter.
At the moment Conor McDavid is the most talented player to ever play, but so are many others.
Ken Holland we're waiting impatiently 🇨🇦
Bro, if the game is always improving and getting better the newest best player will always be the best ever. McDavid is the best player ever.
If you judge best career include all the hardware.
If you’re going for straight up best player , has to be just based on the guy.
Except when Mario really started to put up points, the gap between Gretzky and the rest of the league was much larger. You have to be careful with today's game: it's much harder to score, but the difference amongst the top players isn't as severe. McDavid is the best in the league, but not by the margin Wayne was versus his peers. Skill-wise, today's players are awesome. . .but the equipment is also much better. You can turn on a dime with current skates compared to the old leather ones, and I can only imagine Al McInnis shooting with one of the modern sticks. But Gretzky was also on a stacked team and benefitted from passing to people who could also put the puck in the net. Great barber shop talk for sure.
How come no one in Gretzky’s era compares to him he is by far the best if it was just the era there would be others players from the 80s close to his points total but they ain’t he was consistent for a very long time in the league
If he keeps this up hes in the top 5
You know it’s funny they say Edmonton sucks by they’ve been to the semifinals and the conference finals and the leafs can’t buy a ticket to the second round
Orr lead the NHL in plus / minus for 6 seasons. The only player to do so. His dominance was unparalleled. You had to be there.
The thing about being "undisputed number 1" for 3 years is that McDavid has only won 2 Harts. So it seems like there is some disputing it, even if I do think he has been the best player for at least 3 years.
voters fatigue, mcdavid hits a career high in points and doesnt win hart 😂
4 Art Ross tho
@@vancouverrrr when the context is about whether/when we can think about putting him in the Gordie Howe, Mario Lemieux, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr tier, it was too close last year.
For example, McDavid was first in points as you mentioned, by only 8 points. He was 2nd in assists, and 7th in goals, and not in the top 20 in plus/minus. Wayne Gretzky had 5 seasons where he was 1st in goals, 1st in assists, 1st in points by a LOT, and 1st in plus/minus. In fact, 2 of those 5 seasons he had enough assists to win the scoring title on assists alone, and another one of those seasons he had exactly as many assists as the second leading scorer had points.
Seasons like those ones I mentioned for Gretzky it is just way too blatantly obvious who the best was, that you can't voter fatigue your way into someone else winning a Hart.
@@yimbaiyoko yes true, he has 4 Art Ross. But they also said Phil Esposito doesn't meet the threshold, and neither did Jaromir Jagr. They both have 5 Art Ross trophies.
Dude forget about the numbers for a second 🤦♂️ Watch a game and it’s pretty damn obvious who dominates. They literally gave the Hart to Matthews last year, you can’t base your opinion on the Hart. If people actually looked at the players play and not just the stats there wouldn’t even be a debate on Mcdavid being the best of all time.
You can't use cups to measure how good a player is.
Really can
@@pitohui1208 Really can’t lol only casuals do. Bill Russell would be the goat if championships mattered that much.
@@lebumjames1373 if a player leads a mediocre team to a championship that tells you how good of a player they are obviously you have to look at more than just the number of wins but if a player never wins you can't say they are the best
@@pitohui1208 Gretzky in his prime never won a cup with LA. OP is right, cups don't matter, especially in the cap era. Many greats never won a cup
@@-Twenty-Nine- and many great have led bad teams to championships if you can't understand why that matters in a players greatness there's something wrong with you
Crazy thing is I honestly think he will tie or beat Wayne
Even if you adjust for the averages today, Gretzky still comes out on top (for now). That guy was so astronomically great, even with the inflated scoreing back in the 80s, he'd still come out in top.
That being said, I think McDavid, right now is top 5 all time skilled and if he keeps it up for the rest of his career, could move into top 3! Kids got unreal skill, just watching him fly down the ice for a goal is a great sight. Dont count on him to catch Gretzky, but he's definitely right up there!
Just my opinion anyways
McDavid is the best and most skilled hockey player to ever live
Jagr's left foot had more talent than O-dog... I mean Hot Dog.
As a pure talent, you could say McDavid over Yzerman, but until McDavid breaks that 150 point mark, I can't say he's had a better season.
Yzerman playing in a different era, yzerman wasn’t really ever the best in the league mcdavid is obviously the most talented ever, but all these players have won more is basically the thing
Yzerman was 3rd in scoring the year he got 155 points. He never won a scoring title, or a Hart trophy. Here are their trophy hauls.
Yzerman - 1 Selke, 1 Conn Smythe, 1 Pearson
McDavid - 4 Art Ross (about to be 5), 2 Hart, 3 Pearson
Yzerman was a great player, but for me, McDavid is ahead of Yzerman.
What a stupid argument lol
Why did you leave the most important part out. Yzerman's cups!.
@@kentmartin9289 your point is so wrong. Two of the best to ever play 66 and 99. If those two HOF didn’t play when Yzerman played he would of won a few scoring titles. It’s that simple. Yzerman is Top 10 best player to ever play. And played with a bad Knee most of his Career
IMO there have been 4 players that have just been ridiculously better than everyone else for an extended period of time in that era. Orr, Gretzky, Mario, and McDavid. That's your top tier.
and Jagr
I don't see how you can put McDavid in a different group than Crosby. Their points per game at the same ages is very similar. Crosby doesn't have quite as many individual awards as he should have due to injuries but makes up for it with his post season success and longevity.
@@michaelshields6326 I think the issue with including Jagr and Crosby in that tier is that there often wasn't as clear a gap between them and everyone else. Jagr only ever won 1 Hart and his tenure overlapped with Mario, Forsberg and the like. Crosby had a lot of injuries that held him out for a time, and when he was in he had to contend with guys like Ovechkin and Malkin early on, and McDavid in the later years. I think most people would say Crosby was the best/most complete player of his era, but it was never so common to call him 'The best player in the world' year in and year out like it is/was for the 4 I mentioned.
Mt Rushmore of hockey has to be 99, 66, 4 & 97. Watched em all! Regardless of cups.
I might agree with Patrick Roy. It's hard when you do throw the goalies in.
And Ray Bourque is interesting too because it's a defenseman. I think the 2 best Defensemen of all time are Orr #1 and Bourque #2 Coffey #3 and there's literally no #4, I don't think anyone else is even in the conversation.
There's also the Jagr issue....what happens when you're not the undisputed best for 3 years, but you're like the 2nd or 3rd best for 10 years and you just happened to be playing with a living god?
Same thing happens to Malkin now, he's way better than he gets credit for.
Bourque was consistent but had a lot of playoffs flops in Boston. Coffey was amazing to watch but had his share of problems defensively. My favorite Defensemen of that era were 2 American guys, Leetch and Chelios. Leetch especially. He was the last Defenseman to score over 100 points and he did it without Gretzky, but was also solid defensively and his run in the 94 playoffs was unreal to watch.
Scott Niedermayer baby, look at his championships. He won everything.
I don't see the name Denis Potvin... & he's likely number 2 on my list... Islanders won what? 19 Playoff series in a row? It wasn't done with smoke & mirrors...
For me the biggest difference is that Gretzky was 50 to 80 points better than the next best player for many years. Basically until Lemieux’s 3rd year in league. To me that tells you how dominant Gretzky was, not all these adjusted stats and goalie gear.
Mcdavid is the best hockey player you have seen with your own eyes, yes you reading this. Now if you want to know the player who has won the most cups, or has the most points,that’s an easy to look up. But have you, your self, seen a better hockey player?
Again Gretzky was better at the World Juniors at 16, than McDavid was at 17, and it's not even close... Gretzky, in his prime, was a better player period... which actually puts him 2nd all time to Orr, in my books
Hes in top 5. Only real arguments on who might have better are Mario Wayne and Bobby orr
It’s shameful how the panel totally botched Gretzky’s stats by saying his assist total is good enough for SECOND all time in total points, (when it’s actually good enough for FIRST in all time points lol). Shameful ignorance on full display here, quite honestly.
Assists is good enough for second as he already holds the first place himself (assist+goals). I am sure that is what they meant.
@@emaila1981 - not correct. Gretzky’s assists ALONE are good enough for first in all time points. Gretzky has 1,963 ASSISTS. Jagr is 2nd in all time POINTS with 1,921. Hence why Gretzky is the all time leading points scorer with his assists alone.
@@michaelgriffiths8068
1. Gretzky POINTS
2. Gretzky ASSIST
3. Everyone else...
So he is first and second.
@@emaila1981 - yes, he is first in points (with his assists alone) and also first in assists (by default) and also first in goals and also first in points (by default).
I think the greatest measure is how far ahead Gretzky was from the rest of the pack. This is the first year we are seeing real separation between mcdavid and the rest of the league in points. Gretzky would win the scoring race by an average of 60 to 70 points every year pre Lemieux. He was so far above the rest of the pack it was unbelievable.
This is the first year we can truly say that about mcdavid.
Gretzky had 3 cups by the age of 25. McDavid has not even seen a final.
I’m drafting….. I take Gretzky all day.
The fact that McDavid is even mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky shows how little today's generation of NHL fans know about the game. For those of us who grew up watching Gretzky, you know he is MILES ahead of anyone who ever played this sport. Imagine a prime Gretzky in today's weak no-hitting wuss league? He'd score 200 points every season, easily. Put McDavid in 80s equipment and give him a wooden stick and see if he can score over 200 points. Yeah...right. Not gonna happen. This is an awful manufactured "argument" when the reality is there is no debating Gretzky is the greatest. In fact, I could name 10 guys from that era who were better than McDavid. Today's game is weak.
Pretty sure the Athletic list isn't about the highest 3-year peak.
Calling any player 'GOAT' when comparing across generations is nonsense. If Gretzky had played 20 years later, he would never have scored the way he did back then. And really, how do you compare any of the greats? Howe? Orr? Mario? Gretzky?
I agree. If Gretzky played in today's weak league, he'd have 300 points per season, not 200.
@@94champs LOL. If Gretzky played in today's 'no thugs' NHL he'd be lucky to survive without his 'body guard'.
@@StephenGMilligan Yeah, sure buddy. Gretzky survived the toughest era in NHL history yet somehow he couldn't make it in today's soft women's league. That makes a lot of sense...NOT. Stick to watching basketball. Ovechkin in the 80s though would have 3 to 4 concussions by now and would have been retired by his 5th season.
@@94champs LOL Gretzky NEVER had to deal with rough stuff because he had Cement Head Semenko ready to beat the crap out of anyone who had the nerve to check the not all that great one.
@@StephenGMilligan Players tried to hit Gretzky all the time, but he was too elusive. You simply don't get it. They couldn't hit him even if they wanted to. He was too smart. But yes, enforcers played a role in the NHL back in the 80s and 90s which used to be part of the beauty of the game. Now, you have everyone including star players getting into fights because there are no more enforcers and sometimes these players end up getting hurt and missing time. This is why getting rid of enforcers was stupid and why the game is inferior today than it was back then. "Not so great one" lol stay off the drugs kiddo.
What also needs to be factored in is the cost cap! How is nobody talking about that? Teams around the best players today are never going to be as good as they were back then. Because the best players get a bigger part of the costcap and there is less money to build the teams around them. This leads to less wins and less points for the best players.
When Gretzky played, the organizations could just buy as many 10m-players as they wanted, without any restrictions. Ofcourse you will win more if the teams as a whole are unbeatable.
'Good players win games, the best players win tournaments' ... That statement is not entirely true anymore
You aren't entirely wrong, but I just want to point out that Gretzky's Oilers weren't like Real Madrid in soccer or the Yankees in baseball where they just bought up the best players in the world. Gretzky, they got as a 17 year old from Indianapolis. Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, and Fuhr were all drafted, none of them in the first 5 picks and 3 of them not even in the first round. They drafted well and the players overachieved for the expectations of them. Edmonton then couldn't afford to keep Coffey, and then couldn't afford to keep Gretzky either.
But your main point I think is still accurate. I really wish they would get rid of the salary cap. It is ridiculous that an elite player even has to contemplate the question of taking less money than they are worth because a rule made to make owners richer is impeding his ability to simultaneously get paid what he deserves and also win the championships necessary for media and fans to give his legacy the respect it deserves.
@@kentmartin9289 yeah, i do agree on that. My comment was just a general wondering over why nobody takes the salary cap into consideration...
I dont have a doubt in my mind that McDavid isnt better than Gretzky ever was. However, the difference between Gretzky and his opponents back then and McDavid now, was way bigger. And that is the impressive part of Gretzky. He was much further ahead of his time than any player will ever be able to replicate in the future. The game is so much more refined now.
And then also the salary cap, which i agree is bullshit. You should not be punished for being the best.
In order for the greatest of all time to be debated we must consider that the landscape has changed. The game has since evolved and the salary cap is a factor. I believe McDavid would excel in points if he had the amount of skill on his Oilers as Gretzky did. I also believe Gretzky would excel in this day and age; however, given he would have lesser teammates I doubt he would touch the point totals he achieved in his time.
Got on the right refuses to listen to explanation (or can’t get it), then acts like he’s legitimately dismissed it. Average goals per year doesn’t need to individually express goaltending, defensive strategy, equipment, etc. it’s a grade 5 math conversion. Simple.
McDavid has been the best player in the league for about 4-5 years. He’s already the most skilled player to ever lance them up, no debate.
sure but no cup no cookie
lmao ok bud, Gretzky is just far better
@@Ratzy1614 in his time period, yes. You put someone with McDavids skill set in Gretzky’s era and he puts up double what Gretzky did. You put Gretzky in todays game and he’s not scoring over 1500 points.
@@charlesstevens3360 mcdavid couldn't play in Wayne's era
@@pitohui1208 thats not true, dont forget Gretzky was 145 pound in that league
Never. He's started too slowly which is ironic given how fast he is
First things first, Gretzky isn't the NHL GOAT, Mario is
And secondly no McDavid will never be the GOAT, hope that helps guys
McDavid is the best player skill wise we’ve seen yet. It’s not even an argument. Throw the points and cups away. He is disgusting and if you threw McDavid in the 80s he’d compete with Gretzky and vice versa. If Gretzky had todays training he’d be more like a Mitch Marner type.
Throw McDavid in the 80s and 90s hed outperform Gretzky put Gretzky in the modern day he wouldnt be nearly as good.
Gretzky played before they took out 2 line offsides, it was harder to breakout clearly and limited stretch passes, Gretzky didn't skate as quick as mcdavid but he was more clever and inventive with the biscuit, Wayne was like Larry bird, great rink awareness, mcdavid is right up there, explosive puck mover, but pure scoring genius was Wayne
Lemieux and Bobby Orr are Gretzky's buffers. McDavid would need an extraodinary case against # 66 and #4 alone and nevermind # 99 at that. Orr revolutionized and dominated his peers equal to what Lemieux/Gretzky did. Lemieux dominated across 3 eras unlike the former 2, but #99 sliced through the record books like no other athlete in history. McDavid's best finish is top 4-5 if he wins a few cups at best imo.
AGREED
I think McDavid will pass Crosby and take the #5 spot. He's having the career Crosby should have had if he had stayed healthy.
@@michaelshields6326 McDavid had that very serious looking knee injury? How did he make such a magnificent recovery....SANS SURGERY???
@@berryscott3590 In a lot of cases when it comes to knee injuries, especially involving ligament damage, therapy and rehab end up being the better option than surgery. Surgery is almost always considered to be a last resort. Anyway, what I meant was McDavid has managed to not miss too many games which has allowed him to rack up the Art Ross wins. Crosby on the other hand got injured while leading the scoring race on 3 separate occasions. Also had another 2 seasons where he missed 6 or 7 games that probably cost him another Ross as well. As great as his career has been, only 2 Art Ross trophies for Crosby has to be seen as a disappoinment. If he could have stayed healthy he would have been looking at 4-6 scoring titles and 4 MVP awards.
As good as McDavid is Karlsson has an argument for the best player in NHL this season. Highest scoring pace for defenseman since early 90s
Connor might have a 150 point season this year
Went it comes to Golf, people always say the cubs of today give players a massive advantage over the older years of past. THEY DO!!! The same goes for hockey, anyone who thinks the sticks of today don't add to the whip, increasing the speed of the shot have never played with an old school wooden stick. The goalies glove use to be just that, a glove. Than came along guys like Eddie "The Eagle" who started using an extra piece of padding on his glove called a cheater. Guys like Roy started with huge shoulder and chest protectors, a Bostin goalie named Reggie Lemelin strapped on to massive (and ugly as hell) box shaped pads onto his legs and the birth of the oversize goalie gear was here to stay. Goalies even started to use video study and personal coaches that greatly helped goalies understand the angles. McDavid, as good as he is, will be in a struggle to be more decorated than Sid, let alone the likes of Wayne, Mario, and Bobby.
Not even close , Wayne was so far ahead of everyone else it was crazy, How many Hart's did he win in a roll, not even close
there has to be 2 lists:
most accomplished (stats, cups, etc.) = gretzky
the best player (if you could draft any player ever to play 1 on 1 vs anybody else, who you taking?) = if you pick anyone but mcdavid you will lose
conclusion = gretzky is most accomplished as of today, and mcdavid the best player as of today
I'm not sure about greatest player of all time but I think McDavid is the most talented player ever and its not even close.
20 years @ 143 pts per to catch Gretz.
Hahahahaha never gonna happen
Ovetchkin , end of story , why even talk about anybody else. The real goat.
Orr is the greatest ever. He controlled all 3 Zones of the ice. McDavid ? He is what Orr would look like in todays skates, but in all 3 zones. Orr's plus minus numbers per season, per game are to the moon. No one even close.
Well let's see, todays sticks add so much velocity. Second Gretzky played in a time when the opposition were legally hanging all over you, hooking, dragging you down, actually checking. Well, not Gretzky of course because they couldn't catch him. Now you get a penalty for most contact. But, but let's give Micky D his due. Lets count Stanley Cups. How many does he need to catch Wayne?