I have been considering these pushing expander practices more lately. I guess I've come to the realization that there is a tremendous amount of accuracy potential wrapped up in the conditioning of my brass. These videos help me realize this in ways I have not considered before. I know this video is dated and I am weighing in late here, but I just wanted to give you a shout-out for these videos! It is a valued sacrifice of time, coin, and resources to produce these uploads and I appreciate them. Thank you!
Excellent! One another important point...lube the case necks. From Sinclair: "Be sure to lube the inside of the case neck before running a piece of brass over the mandrel. This can be done with a cotton swab or by dipping the case mouth into the lube. We recommend using FP-10, any of the sizing die waxes, or any sizing lube (Redding, RCBS, Rooster, etc.)"
An additional benefit, of mandrel sizing that many have missed. If you do not neck turn your brass, standard sized neck in chamber. There is another reason you use the mandrel to expand the neck The thickness of the neck varies, after using the mandrel, all those variances are on the outside of the neck, to be turned off, if turning, the inside of the neck is concentric. Using the mandrel die as a neck sizing die does the same thing with unturned necks. The surface that contacts the bullet(inside the neck) is concentric for consistent contact. When sizing with a bushing, the variances are pushed to the inside of the neck by the concentric bushing. I can very easily tell the difference when seating bullets in unturned necks. The effort or pressure to seat the bullet is very consistent. No more sorting match ammo into match and sighter's by feel of seating, they are all match ammo.
Heard about this from the modern day sniper pod cast, Scott satterlee mentions the mandrels benefit over a bushing die in that it doesnt have the potential of creating a doughnut in the neck. Sounds worthwhile to me!
I just finished watching your Ultimate 6.5 Sizing die Comparison video and this one. I couldn't agree more with you on the value of the Sinclair Expander Mandrels and die. Of the 90 die sets on my shelf, many have the decapping stem removed completely and thusly makes sizing/expanding a two step process. It's really not a big deal. I set up both dies in a little Lee turret press or even my Hornady LNL AP. I can get the sizing and expanding as well as priming done all at the same time. I'd be lost without my Sinclair Expander set. Good videos.
@@bugmouthready529 Not so far anyway. I would probably try wiping it away with a good copper bore solvent, since brass is something like 70% copper. You could try chucking it in a drill but then you risk altering the dimension of the mandrel.
+West Desert Shooter thanks. I plan on using it in a upcoming video so I thought when I get questions I can just point them to this. For the money it really is a good tool. I have another video I am planning on concentricty and I plan to use this in the demonstration.
What I do now deprime, wet tumble, FL size with no expander to bump the shoulder .001-.002 then open the neck up with the NT mandrel to set my neck tension at .002. It has given me the best results so far on my testing. YMMV.
Your explanation of the equipment was very thorough and clear. However, I am still confused on the practical application for the reloading process. So for example, let's say I have a standard $35 2 piece deprime and full length resizing die. How is this piece worked in to my process? It sounds like I would remove the carbide from the full length resize, run the brass though the full length resize and them run them through this?
Hi Nathan, 1st I deprime on a separate step (universal depriming die) 2nd FL resize (push shoulder back .002") with the expanding device (what I am assuming you are calling the carbide) completely removed from the die, 3rd use the expander mandrel to set the neck final inner diameter.
If you are using a Lyman M die to ezpand/flare case mouths for pistol, you are essentially doing this process already, this just isn't a 2 step expander. That was how I found out the benefits of it, by using custom sized M-die expanders for cast bullets. It makes case expanding sooooo much easier, even though it is an extra couple of steps, but, they are pretty quick. No fighting with scraping the neck across the expander ball in the die and pulling on the case neck, helps with case neck stretch due too sizing over an expander ball and reduces some trimming, and maybe some runout. just a better method in many ways. Some die stems let you remove the expander and keep the decap pin, some you can buy a cap to do that, or you can also use a dedicated decap die, or you can hit your expander ball with a file and take it down to undersize, or swap it out with a smaller one that you can either buy of pilfer from another die. Shud also have a look at this vid, in case you get OCD doing this; th-cam.com/video/sdJeADnU4Uk/w-d-xo.html
Your videos are excellent; thank you. You mention in several of your replies that you use the NT mandrel. Do you use the stainless steel or carbide NT mandrels? Thanks in advance.
The "dad" answer is yes. Either really work fine, but if you want to get by with less lube the carbide is the best bet. I have started doing a repeat use before I bullet seat with only the carbide and no lube, to ensure the best concentricity possible. If you want to do that carbide is needed, if not just pick up a stainless to try them out. (Use lube) I haven't used an expander ball since I started using these and looking at my runout.
G’day legend , I just bought my first Sinclair Mandrel die and a .307 SS expander mandrel and a . 306 neck turner mandrel for my 308 Win Police rifle . This is my first time using the Sinclair Mandrel Die. I’m using brand new Lapua 308 Win brass . After resizing the cases in a Redding FL die with the expander removed , i lubed the inside of the case necks and ran them into the Sinclair Mandrel Die thinking that the inside neck diameter would be about .307 for 0.001 neck tension but I was surprised to find that the inside neck diameter measures .304 to .305 because of brass spring back . My question is will the case have less spring back after a few firings so I can get a 0.001 neck tension when using the 0.307 SS mandrel or 0.002 neck tension when using the SS .306 turning mandrel ? Keep up the great content. We all learn a lot from content creators such as yourself to help us make accurate dependable loads for hunting and target shooting. Cheers 🍻 🍻
I wish I had a perfect answer but I don't. I anneal every reload and have been able to keep mine fairly consistent. The annealing made perfect guys have put out some videos on the subject but I don't know that I have hard data one way vs another.
First and foremost - I love your vids and the way you deliver the content. I had 3 questions (if I may). 1. I have been considering purchasing an expander mandrel die to open the case mouth ever so slightly for the purpose of uniformity, however, I was wondering if this would help with the overall performance of the load? 2. I reload for my 6.5mm and have been experiencing some inconstancy in my seating depths (I have used various seating dies) and believe it may be due to various bullet sizing - I was wondering if you could kindly make any recommendations so that I can achieve more consistent ('accurate') seating results? 3. I also have a Hornady NT tool and was just curious if you're using the actual mandrels that it comes with or Sinclair ones? It comes across that Sinclair ones are being used? Maybe I have misunderstood. I REALLY appreciate your time in advance! Cheers, Dan
Glad your enjoying enjoying content. Best I can do for your answers. 1. I found different results based on using the expander mandrel vs the NT mandrel. For me SDs were best with NT mandrel. Your experience may be different. 2. What bullets are you talking about specifically and how are you measuring them? Cbto or coal? 3. When doing the actual turning I am expanding with the Sinclair mandrel but turning with the mandrels from hornady. Hope that makes sense. BAR
@@BoltActionReloading Thank you for taking the time to provide the details. 2. I have been using Hornady ELD bullets, which they seemed to be fine (to an extent) however, currently using Sierra bullets (part #1740) I ask about the mandrel because I have been experiencing bullet seating inconsistency, which is causing variation, and trying to ascertain what other things I can do to improve this issue. I am measuring COAL; I basically put the whole bullet against the callipers and take my measurement. I would love for someone to try crack this nut! 3. This reduces the movement once on the mandrel, thus proving better results when NT for concentricity?
Hey Dan, 2. The Sierra 1740 is the 140 hpbt. Since this is a hpbt measuring coal is always going to cause inconsistencies measuring coal. Eld with the plastic tip have pretty consistent OAL. For hpbt if you are worried about consistantcy you need a bullet comparator to use with your calipers and measure CBTO instead. (Or in addition to). If you want to verify this for yourself just measure the length of a few bullets out of the box both ways and you will see that is just the variation in the manufacturing processes for that style of bullet. They are still very good bullets just make sure they fit where they need too, and trust the die is doing its job. 3. Exactly
@@BoltActionReloading Thank you so much for that info!!! It is much appreciated!!! I will heed your advice - it does make perfect sense. I am very pedantic in ensuring my case case prep is accurate. I will, however, look into the Sinclair Hex Bullet Comparator, as that will allow me to measure the bullet ogive. I might stick with the ELDs, as I was getting more consistency in my seating results. Once again, thank you for your time and your help!!! Dan
Gday mate I had a few questions. So I have a mandrel die I think it's a 21 Century version as I have their neck turning lathe for mainly for my 243wssm which I have a custom tight neck chamber that requires neck turned brass. So before you use the expander/turning die for case necks, do you run your brass through a neck sizing die and if so what particular neck die do you use E.G. Forster without the expander rod fitted??? Would you use a Bushing type die to pre size before running through Sinclair expander die???? Does knowing your specific rifle chamber dimension determine how thick you have your cases or how much to neck turn them by???? Also should you always BUMP your cases E.G. 001-003 thou each time you resize/reload using either full length or neck sizing????? I saw a video on pressure/velocity variation just by bumping your cases too much. Four were bumped 001 thou and one at 005. AMAZING the difference. I know the theory of just neck sizing is less case working. I saw the video on Full length Vs Neck sizing which was great. So when you use the EXPANDER for neck tension what is your steps involved please?????? Thanks for the videos mate. They help you think about what you want to achieve and the ways you can approach it.
Hey Mick, Lots to questions to unpack here. My process is to "bump size" .001 to .003" for function. I have not seen any measurable improvement by Neck only sizing so I typically don't do it. I use a Forster FL die with the expander ball removed, set to bump the shoulder at least .001, .005 is way too much though. (I would love to see the link to the video you are referencing if possible) and then I use my expander mandrel to set my Neck Tension. If you are moving your necks a lot you can have Forster turn the dies to only minimally resize the neck though I would want to make sure your getting them at least .002 below your desired ID setting. (if you going for .002 NT go at least .004 and make the mandrel set it back to the .002) I run .002 NT on almost everything. using the FL die for this process has given me the best concentricity results by far but YMMV. If this isn't completely clear let me know and I will try and clarify. Thanks for watching and hope you enjoy the channel!
@@BoltActionReloading Thanks mate. Yeah this explains heap. I can take the expander rod out of my Forster die and use that to size the necks before either neck turning or just using Mandrel expander to set neck tension. With my 243wssm I KNOW the chamber size thus can turn the necks to suit. And get a set of bushings for my Forster/Redding Neck bushing die that suits the correct neck tension. Obviously knowing your chamber size really helps. I guess I can measure THREE fired formed cases after each firing to work out the approx. chamber size. So with regards to my 308 Target rifle for example. I have both a Redding Type S neck bushing Die with a full length Body die and a Forster Bushing BUMP die. Which combo would you stick with???? Obviously the Forster bumps and sizes neck in one hit. And you advise to always BUMP your fired cases each time you reload. So if that was the case I guess I can sell the Redding Type S Neck Bushing Die. What are your thoughts???? But yeah I have watched many of your videos and are really good info and value. I have quite a few Forster dies now in .270, 243, 222 Remington. Is there really much difference in the Bench rest seater Vs the Ultra Micrometre Seater????? Thanks again for your input.
I have never used the bump dies so I hesitate to comment on that combo. Also none of my chambers are tight necked so your results may vary. In my testing my process gave the best concentricity and this has proved to give me better results, but a custom chamber may behave differently, unfortunately testing is the only way to know. To me it's at least half the fun. Best of luck and dont hesitate to let me know how it works out for you.
What are your thoughts on an S type bushing die to set neck tension based on the chamber from the outside, vs the mandrel which sets tension based on bullet diameter from inside?
Please keep in mind it is my opinion, do what you like, I have had more concentric ammo from using a die with no decapping pin and using the mandrel than using the s type busing dies. Check here: th-cam.com/video/9I2pwRDxDOQ/w-d-xo.html Not saying that it will be your results but there were mine. Also using only the bushing relies on the brass thickness being perfect on the brass which likely it is not. Essentially you are trying to force a projectile into a imperfect circle unless you resize the inside of the neck after you resize the outside of the neck. Sorry for the slow response, best of luck. I hope you enjoy the channel!
I use the Redding type S competition blushing dies. I too, have taken out the expander ball and the decapping pin. I decap seperate on another press with a universal decapping die. I use a bushing 4 thousandths smaller, and then use the Sinclair neck turning mandrel to open the case mouth out to a 2 thousandths press fit.
I use this mandrel on new brass with imperial dry lube and get extreme galling. I lube every neck and after just a few cases I need to dismantel and clean the brass build up off the mandrel with very fine wet dry abbrasive paper. I have similar results with a wet lube. Does anyone have any advice? Its driving me nuts!
Hi Bugmouth, Are you using the carbide mandrel? it will hold up better, however depending on how far you are moving the necks sometimes I add some imperial wax and then remove it with a qtip after the sizing. If you are not overcleaning your brass after the first firing the carbon will help alleviate this problem. Good Luck.
@@BoltActionReloading cheers for the reply. Using the stainless steel option and only going in as far as mandrel ogive past bottom of neck. I might need to invest in the carbide option. Thank you again
Yes it can. It is a little tighter but it still works. If you are loading for longer cartridges think about the long die from 21C though so you dont have to worry about hitting your case neck.
One thing to add is Zediker mentions the need to clean the expanders regularly. He polishes his and says you can't use too much lube (Imperial sizing wax) with them.
How does he polish it? I get really bad brass build up after just a few cases! I clean using an ultra fine wet dry abrasive paper but worried I will wear the mandrel down
@@bugmouthready529 No problem. I highly recommend the book I got it from: "Handloading for Competition." It is loaded with great information. Pun intended.
This has probably been mentioned before but what if you used say the hornady custom FL die with the expander ball removed and then use the lee neck sizer? Would it be the same as this?
It might be similar, I haven't specifically looked at that. Forster offers that for $8 you can have them custom hone your die out to fit your brass. That is my long term plan. Should work the necks a little less and still get my premium run out numbers. Thanks for commenting!
I have these for my neck turner, but I have never considered using them for final neck tension? Do you get measurably better concentricity this way? Thanks for the video!
I would say it probably depends on your process. I illustrate this in this video: th-cam.com/video/9I2pwRDxDOQ/w-d-xo.html I have been able to consistently keep my run out below .001" so I have switched to using these exclusively. I got tired of checking my loaded rounds because they were so consistent. YMMV
I am not really sure how many their are. I know that 21st century has a lot of options as the sell mandrels in .0005" increments I might try them out at some point.
Bolt Action Reloading thank you so much for getting back to me quickly means alot. So many TH-camrs think they are too big to even respond and connect with their viewers. Keep up the great vids. And would you use the .002 turning mandrel on say a bolt action 7mm rem mag?
I have had the best luck with .002 across the board, but I know in one of his videos west desert shooter claimed to have better luck with the .001 so sometimes you have to test
+Ad Mar I quit using my bushing die, but was using a 289 with Hornady brass. If you want a little more neck tension you could go 288. I just couldn't get consistently low runout.
+Ad Mar I use a forster FL sizing die, set to shoulder bump about .001 to .003 with no expander ball and open the neck back up in a separate step with the Sinclair neck turn mandrel.
This is all very fascinating. I would like to see a test between ammo made with the expander die and ammo made with a regular full size or neck size die to see if it makes a difference in accuracy that is statistically significant using at least 20 pieces from each group. It already takes a very long time to make rounds, but I would add an extra time consuming step if it meant a better accuracy. I know you already have a lot of tests you want to do and will understand if you can't test this. Keep up the good work.
+wayne Pursell I plan shortly to do a video on my brass prep for the 338 that I will use this to do the initial break in loads. Thought I might as well cover this before I use it in the video. I am sure someone will ask.
One big indicator is the way it feels when you seat your bullets. When you compare seating with an expander ball versus seating with an expander mandrel, it's like night and day. Seating with the mandrel is extremely smooth and the benefits can be seen in less run-out and more consistent muzzle velocity. I can't say I've seen improved accuracy because I use the Hornady concentricity tool to minimize run-out prior to load tests.
Hab2e you fooled around with say a REDDING FL bushing die, remove expander and bushing so it just sizes the body. Then use the Lee collet sizing die? Oh wait then the shoulder won't get bumped back right?
I have not. I so far haven't been a fan of collet dies. I am sure you could use a body dies and then a collet die but not sure exactly what that would buy you.
@@BoltActionReloading if i get a REDDING S type FL bushing die and remove decap mandrel and bushing would it size just the body or would it still bump it back too?
I picked up one of these in kit form, it gives you 3 calibers to choose from to make up your kit, it's a good deal. K&M also makes a kit, which is worth looking at. Comes with 5 different size mandrels in it, just that each kit is caliber specific. If you have a minimum size neck in your die, you can set neck tension in .0005 increments with the K&M kit. Could give you more flexibility on neck tension than a bushing die, and it is cheaper. I was using two step M die expanders on one cartridge for cast bullets, and really noticed how much better they worked than using the expander that comes with the standard dies. It provoked the thought that I should do it that way on everything I have. kmshooting.com/custom-diameter-expand-mandrel-kit-for-bullet-tension-main.html
Though greater flexibility I don't understand the cheaper comment. Unless I am missing something these look like over $50 per size and the Sinclair ss option is only $10.
I want so badly to like this channel. But i find so much of it incredibly annoying. From the endless footage of a wall, to the huge amount of words used to convey little information, the use of “guys” WAY too much, poor font choice, etc. Why put all those words on screen at once and on an overlay? Use a black background! Larger font and multiple pages! And after all this load development and huge amount of money spent on things like AMP annealer, the groups are overall not especially impressive. Sorry to be so harsh, please take this in the spirit of improvement with which it is intended.
Hi G5, I certainly am guilty of not being perfect. I have tried heavily to improve in a lot of the areas that you mention. Finding a format is a bit of a struggle for me but I have made improvements. I have added more B roll and made my text bigger. I overuse words and I notice as I edit, I am trying to improve this. This particular video is over 2 years old at this point. I hope if you watch something more current that you see some improvements. I am not offended by the feedback, always appreciate good suggestions rather than some that just thumbs down the video and go along. I really need a shock collar every time I use the words "guys, obviously, and a few others" but I am trying to break the bad habit. BAR
@@BoltActionReloading I regret posting my original comment, it was needlessly critical and not helpful. It was selfish venting. I want to publicly apologize to you. Thank you for making the videos.
Hi G5, Thank you, but no need to worry. Your comment was far more polite than some I have had and it wasn't untrue. They are things I need to work on. I hope you continue to put up with me and let me know what could be improved upon when I can. I have received lots of great comments and feedback and that is how we all learn.
Why do most of the calipers I see being used are cheap Chinese tools If you really want a true measurement use a quality micrometer, like Brown& Sharp or Starrett? Or am I being anal about this being an old Tool Maker?
I have been considering these pushing expander practices more lately. I guess I've come to the realization that there is a tremendous amount of accuracy potential wrapped up in the conditioning of my brass. These videos help me realize this in ways I have not considered before. I know this video is dated and I am weighing in late here, but I just wanted to give you a shout-out for these videos! It is a valued sacrifice of time, coin, and resources to produce these uploads and I appreciate them. Thank you!
Excellent! One another important point...lube the case necks. From Sinclair: "Be sure to lube the inside of the case neck before running a piece of brass over the mandrel. This can be done with a cotton swab or by dipping the case mouth into the lube. We recommend using FP-10, any of the sizing die waxes, or any sizing lube (Redding, RCBS, Rooster, etc.)"
I have the Sinclair expander die/mandrel to open the neck on 6.5x284 brass to .284(7mm). Works great! Great video! Thanks!
+cmwill72 thanks for the comment. Glad you liked the video. They are a great tool
An additional benefit, of mandrel sizing that many have missed. If you do not neck turn your brass, standard sized neck in chamber. There is another reason you use the mandrel to expand the neck The thickness of the neck varies, after using the mandrel, all those variances are on the outside of the neck, to be turned off, if turning, the inside of the neck is concentric. Using the mandrel die as a neck sizing die does the same thing with unturned necks. The surface that contacts the bullet(inside the neck) is concentric for consistent contact. When sizing with a bushing, the variances are pushed to the inside of the neck by the concentric bushing. I can very easily tell the difference when seating bullets in unturned necks. The effort or pressure to seat the bullet is very consistent. No more sorting match ammo into match and sighter's by feel of seating, they are all match ammo.
Heard about this from the modern day sniper pod cast, Scott satterlee mentions the mandrels benefit over a bushing die in that it doesnt have the potential of creating a doughnut in the neck. Sounds worthwhile to me!
This is why i am here too, i wanted to get an idea how Scott might be using them.
I just finished watching your Ultimate 6.5 Sizing die Comparison video and this one. I couldn't agree more with you on the value of the Sinclair Expander Mandrels and die. Of the 90 die sets on my shelf, many have the decapping stem removed completely and thusly makes sizing/expanding a two step process. It's really not a big deal. I set up both dies in a little Lee turret press or even my Hornady LNL AP. I can get the sizing and expanding as well as priming done all at the same time. I'd be lost without my Sinclair Expander set. Good videos.
Luvta Handload thanks. I really appreciate the comment.
Do you experience brass building up on the mandrel? And how do you deal with that?
@@bugmouthready529 Not so far anyway. I would probably try wiping it away with a good copper bore solvent, since brass is something like 70% copper. You could try chucking it in a drill but then you risk altering the dimension of the mandrel.
@@luvtahandload7692 thank you
Now have one of these and the mandrels for 338 and 6.5.. Thinking of going with the forster fl dies and mandrels for all my calibers.
Started off knowing nothing about the tool I feel like I could educate the manufacturer now! Haha great video dude
+West Desert Shooter thanks. I plan on using it in a upcoming video so I thought when I get questions I can just point them to this. For the money it really is a good tool. I have another video I am planning on concentricty and I plan to use this in the demonstration.
Do you need a bushing 1thou smaller than your mandrel so your mandrel can push out that last 1thou for consistent neck tension?
What I do now deprime, wet tumble, FL size with no expander to bump the shoulder .001-.002 then open the neck up with the NT mandrel to set my neck tension at .002. It has given me the best results so far on my testing. YMMV.
Your explanation of the equipment was very thorough and clear. However, I am still confused on the practical application for the reloading process. So for example, let's say I have a standard $35 2 piece deprime and full length resizing die. How is this piece worked in to my process? It sounds like I would remove the carbide from the full length resize, run the brass though the full length resize and them run them through this?
Hi Nathan,
1st I deprime on a separate step (universal depriming die)
2nd FL resize (push shoulder back .002") with the expanding device (what I am assuming you are calling the carbide) completely removed from the die,
3rd use the expander mandrel to set the neck final inner diameter.
That's what I've heard it called, but I am probably using the term incorrectly. Thank you!
If you are using a Lyman M die to ezpand/flare case mouths for pistol, you are essentially doing this process already, this just isn't a 2 step expander. That was how I found out the benefits of it, by using custom sized M-die expanders for cast bullets. It makes case expanding sooooo much easier, even though it is an extra couple of steps, but, they are pretty quick. No fighting with scraping the neck across the expander ball in the die and pulling on the case neck, helps with case neck stretch due too sizing over an expander ball and reduces some trimming, and maybe some runout. just a better method in many ways. Some die stems let you remove the expander and keep the decap pin, some you can buy a cap to do that, or you can also use a dedicated decap die, or you can hit your expander ball with a file and take it down to undersize, or swap it out with a smaller one that you can either buy of pilfer from another die. Shud also have a look at this vid, in case you get OCD doing this; th-cam.com/video/sdJeADnU4Uk/w-d-xo.html
Your videos are excellent; thank you. You mention in several of your replies that you use the NT mandrel. Do you use the stainless steel or carbide NT mandrels? Thanks in advance.
The "dad" answer is yes. Either really work fine, but if you want to get by with less lube the carbide is the best bet. I have started doing a repeat use before I bullet seat with only the carbide and no lube, to ensure the best concentricity possible. If you want to do that carbide is needed, if not just pick up a stainless to try them out. (Use lube) I haven't used an expander ball since I started using these and looking at my runout.
@@BoltActionReloading what lube do you use? Do you get brass build up on the mandrel and any galling? How do you deal with that?
G’day legend , I just bought my first Sinclair Mandrel die and a .307 SS expander mandrel and a . 306 neck turner mandrel for my 308 Win Police rifle . This is my first time using the Sinclair Mandrel Die.
I’m using brand new Lapua 308 Win brass . After resizing the cases in a Redding FL die with the expander removed , i lubed the inside of the case necks and ran them into the Sinclair Mandrel Die thinking that the inside neck diameter would be about .307 for 0.001 neck tension but I was surprised to find that the inside neck diameter measures .304 to .305 because of brass spring back .
My question is will the case have less spring back after a few firings so I can get a 0.001 neck tension when using the 0.307 SS mandrel or 0.002 neck tension when using the SS .306 turning mandrel ?
Keep up the great content. We all learn a lot from content creators such as yourself to help us make accurate dependable loads for hunting and target shooting. Cheers 🍻 🍻
I wish I had a perfect answer but I don't. I anneal every reload and have been able to keep mine fairly consistent. The annealing made perfect guys have put out some videos on the subject but I don't know that I have hard data one way vs another.
@@BoltActionReloading Thanks for your reply. Have a great day man . Cheers 🍻 🍻
First and foremost - I love your vids and the way you deliver the content. I had 3 questions (if I may).
1. I have been considering purchasing an expander mandrel die to open the case mouth ever so slightly for the purpose of uniformity, however, I was wondering if this would help with the overall performance of the load?
2. I reload for my 6.5mm and have been experiencing some inconstancy in my seating depths (I have used various seating dies) and believe it may be due to various bullet sizing - I was wondering if you could kindly make any recommendations so that I can achieve more consistent ('accurate') seating results?
3. I also have a Hornady NT tool and was just curious if you're using the actual mandrels that it comes with or Sinclair ones? It comes across that Sinclair ones are being used? Maybe I have misunderstood.
I REALLY appreciate your time in advance!
Cheers,
Dan
Glad your enjoying enjoying content. Best I can do for your answers.
1. I found different results based on using the expander mandrel vs the NT mandrel. For me SDs were best with NT mandrel. Your experience may be different.
2. What bullets are you talking about specifically and how are you measuring them? Cbto or coal?
3. When doing the actual turning I am expanding with the Sinclair mandrel but turning with the mandrels from hornady.
Hope that makes sense.
BAR
@@BoltActionReloading Thank you for taking the time to provide the details.
2. I have been using Hornady ELD bullets, which they seemed to be fine (to an extent) however, currently using Sierra bullets (part #1740) I ask about the mandrel because I have been experiencing bullet seating inconsistency, which is causing variation, and trying to ascertain what other things I can do to improve this issue. I am measuring COAL; I basically put the whole bullet against the callipers and take my measurement. I would love for someone to try crack this nut!
3. This reduces the movement once on the mandrel, thus proving better results when NT for concentricity?
Hey Dan,
2. The Sierra 1740 is the 140 hpbt. Since this is a hpbt measuring coal is always going to cause inconsistencies measuring coal. Eld with the plastic tip have pretty consistent OAL. For hpbt if you are worried about consistantcy you need a bullet comparator to use with your calipers and measure CBTO instead. (Or in addition to). If you want to verify this for yourself just measure the length of a few bullets out of the box both ways and you will see that is just the variation in the manufacturing processes for that style of bullet. They are still very good bullets just make sure they fit where they need too, and trust the die is doing its job.
3. Exactly
@@BoltActionReloading Thank you so much for that info!!! It is much appreciated!!! I will heed your advice - it does make perfect sense. I am very pedantic in ensuring my case case prep is accurate. I will, however, look into the Sinclair Hex Bullet Comparator, as that will allow me to measure the bullet ogive. I might stick with the ELDs, as I was getting more consistency in my seating results. Once again, thank you for your time and your help!!!
Dan
Gday mate I had a few questions. So I have a mandrel die I think it's a 21 Century version as I have their neck turning lathe for mainly for my 243wssm which I have a custom tight neck chamber that requires neck turned brass. So before you use the expander/turning die for case necks, do you run your brass through a neck sizing die and if so what particular neck die do you use E.G. Forster without the expander rod fitted??? Would you use a Bushing type die to pre size before running through Sinclair expander die???? Does knowing your specific rifle chamber dimension determine how thick you have your cases or how much to neck turn them by???? Also should you always BUMP your cases E.G. 001-003 thou each time you resize/reload using either full length or neck sizing????? I saw a video on pressure/velocity variation just by bumping your cases too much. Four were bumped 001 thou and one at 005. AMAZING the difference. I know the theory of just neck sizing is less case working. I saw the video on Full length Vs Neck sizing which was great. So when you use the EXPANDER for neck tension what is your steps involved please?????? Thanks for the videos mate. They help you think about what you want to achieve and the ways you can approach it.
Hey Mick, Lots to questions to unpack here. My process is to "bump size" .001 to .003" for function. I have not seen any measurable improvement by Neck only sizing so I typically don't do it. I use a Forster FL die with the expander ball removed, set to bump the shoulder at least .001, .005 is way too much though. (I would love to see the link to the video you are referencing if possible) and then I use my expander mandrel to set my Neck Tension. If you are moving your necks a lot you can have Forster turn the dies to only minimally resize the neck though I would want to make sure your getting them at least .002 below your desired ID setting. (if you going for .002 NT go at least .004 and make the mandrel set it back to the .002) I run .002 NT on almost everything. using the FL die for this process has given me the best concentricity results by far but YMMV. If this isn't completely clear let me know and I will try and clarify. Thanks for watching and hope you enjoy the channel!
@@BoltActionReloading Thanks mate. Yeah this explains heap. I can take the expander rod out of my Forster die and use that to size the necks before either neck turning or just using Mandrel expander to set neck tension. With my 243wssm I KNOW the chamber size thus can turn the necks to suit. And get a set of bushings for my Forster/Redding Neck bushing die that suits the correct neck tension. Obviously knowing your chamber size really helps. I guess I can measure THREE fired formed cases after each firing to work out the approx. chamber size. So with regards to my 308 Target rifle for example. I have both a Redding Type S neck bushing Die with a full length Body die and a Forster Bushing BUMP die. Which combo would you stick with???? Obviously the Forster bumps and sizes neck in one hit. And you advise to always BUMP your fired cases each time you reload. So if that was the case I guess I can sell the Redding Type S Neck Bushing Die. What are your thoughts???? But yeah I have watched many of your videos and are really good info and value. I have quite a few Forster dies now in .270, 243, 222 Remington. Is there really much difference in the Bench rest seater Vs the Ultra Micrometre Seater????? Thanks again for your input.
I have never used the bump dies so I hesitate to comment on that combo. Also none of my chambers are tight necked so your results may vary. In my testing my process gave the best concentricity and this has proved to give me better results, but a custom chamber may behave differently, unfortunately testing is the only way to know. To me it's at least half the fun. Best of luck and dont hesitate to let me know how it works out for you.
@@BoltActionReloading th-cam.com/video/Md50fFCeQJE/w-d-xo.html
The headspace video above
What are your thoughts on an S type bushing die to set neck tension based on the chamber from the outside, vs the mandrel which sets tension based on bullet diameter from inside?
Please keep in mind it is my opinion, do what you like, I have had more concentric ammo from using a die with no decapping pin and using the mandrel than using the s type busing dies. Check here: th-cam.com/video/9I2pwRDxDOQ/w-d-xo.html Not saying that it will be your results but there were mine. Also using only the bushing relies on the brass thickness being perfect on the brass which likely it is not. Essentially you are trying to force a projectile into a imperfect circle unless you resize the inside of the neck after you resize the outside of the neck. Sorry for the slow response, best of luck. I hope you enjoy the channel!
I use the Redding type S competition blushing dies. I too, have taken out the expander ball and the decapping pin. I decap seperate on another press with a universal decapping die.
I use a bushing 4 thousandths smaller, and then use the Sinclair neck turning mandrel to open the case mouth out to a 2 thousandths press fit.
I use this mandrel on new brass with imperial dry lube and get extreme galling. I lube every neck and after just a few cases I need to dismantel and clean the brass build up off the mandrel with very fine wet dry abbrasive paper. I have similar results with a wet lube. Does anyone have any advice? Its driving me nuts!
Hi Bugmouth, Are you using the carbide mandrel? it will hold up better, however depending on how far you are moving the necks sometimes I add some imperial wax and then remove it with a qtip after the sizing. If you are not overcleaning your brass after the first firing the carbon will help alleviate this problem. Good Luck.
@@BoltActionReloading cheers for the reply. Using the stainless steel option and only going in as far as mandrel ogive past bottom of neck. I might need to invest in the carbide option.
Thank you again
Does the Sinclair die work with the 21C mandrels?
Yes it can. It is a little tighter but it still works. If you are loading for longer cartridges think about the long die from 21C though so you dont have to worry about hitting your case neck.
One thing to add is Zediker mentions the need to clean the expanders regularly. He polishes his and says you can't use too much lube (Imperial sizing wax) with them.
How does he polish it? I get really bad brass build up after just a few cases! I clean using an ultra fine wet dry abrasive paper but worried I will wear the mandrel down
@@bugmouthready529 Chuck it up in a drill and polish it with 800 grit sand paper. Use some oil to keep the heat down.
@@njgrplr2007 thank you
@@bugmouthready529 No problem. I highly recommend the book I got it from: "Handloading for Competition." It is loaded with great information. Pun intended.
@@njgrplr2007 I would not do that. That will change the.diameter considerable. If you ask me
This has probably been mentioned before but what if you used say the hornady custom FL die with the expander ball removed and then use the lee neck sizer? Would it be the same as this?
It might be similar, I haven't specifically looked at that. Forster offers that for $8 you can have them custom hone your die out to fit your brass. That is my long term plan. Should work the necks a little less and still get my premium run out numbers. Thanks for commenting!
Does Lee make their collet neck sizer in 6.5mm Creedmoor?
Yes I have one. I don't they they sell it alone. You have to buy the whole set
What's the difference between a expander mandrel vs the neck turning mandrel besides the size?
I have the same question
I have these for my neck turner, but I have never considered using them for final neck tension?
Do you get measurably better concentricity this way?
Thanks for the video!
I would say it probably depends on your process. I illustrate this in this video: th-cam.com/video/9I2pwRDxDOQ/w-d-xo.html
I have been able to consistently keep my run out below .001" so I have switched to using these exclusively. I got tired of checking my loaded rounds because they were so consistent. YMMV
1 thou neck tension is pretty light, must be a single feeding them in
How many different mandrel companies are there, and what are the differences? If you know.
I am not really sure how many their are. I know that 21st century has a lot of options as the sell mandrels in .0005" increments I might try them out at some point.
So I have a 6.5cm in an ar10. What would you suggest the .001 expander or the .002 turning mandrel for bullet seating tension?
Turning mandrel .002 for sure, unless you plan on crimping.
Bolt Action Reloading thank you so much for getting back to me quickly means alot. So many TH-camrs think they are too big to even respond and connect with their viewers. Keep up the great vids. And would you use the .002 turning mandrel on say a bolt action 7mm rem mag?
I have had the best luck with .002 across the board, but I know in one of his videos west desert shooter claimed to have better luck with the .001 so sometimes you have to test
Did you check the concentricity on finished brass with a mandrel vs. a regular or bushing die?
I have and I believe it to be better. I demonstrate it briefly in this video I think. th-cam.com/video/9I2pwRDxDOQ/w-d-xo.html
I bought a Redding full sized bushing and interested in getting a mandrel die. Which neck bushing do you use for your 6.5 creedmoor?
+Ad Mar I quit using my bushing die, but was using a 289 with Hornady brass. If you want a little more neck tension you could go 288. I just couldn't get consistently low runout.
Bolt Action Reloading what sizer die do you use now?
+Ad Mar I use a forster FL sizing die, set to shoulder bump about .001 to .003 with no expander ball and open the neck back up in a separate step with the Sinclair neck turn mandrel.
+Ad Mar I demonstrate the here th-cam.com/video/9I2pwRDxDOQ/w-d-xo.html
Bolt Action Reloading did you custom hone the neck of your Forster full length sizer?
This is all very fascinating. I would like to see a test between ammo made with the expander die and ammo made with a regular full size or neck size die to see if it makes a difference in accuracy that is statistically significant using at least 20 pieces from each group. It already takes a very long time to make rounds, but I would add an extra time consuming step if it meant a better accuracy. I know you already have a lot of tests you want to do and will understand if you can't test this. Keep up the good work.
+wayne Pursell I plan shortly to do a video on my brass prep for the 338 that I will use this to do the initial break in loads. Thought I might as well cover this before I use it in the video. I am sure someone will ask.
One big indicator is the way it feels when you seat your bullets. When you compare seating with an expander ball versus seating with an expander mandrel, it's like night and day. Seating with the mandrel is extremely smooth and the benefits can be seen in less run-out and more consistent muzzle velocity. I can't say I've seen improved accuracy because I use the Hornady concentricity tool to minimize run-out prior to load tests.
I had not seen these before. Thanks!
+Loads of Bacon no problem. They are a neat tool.
Has anyone got any feedback on 21st Century Black Nitride mandrels?
Please show us how to set it up and perform the operation!
Thanks for this video! Big help
For my 223 ftr rifle I use a .2245 mandrel for .002 tension, so your
.337 would give you about .003 because of spring back
Great video. I've been handloading for years and thought I knew everything. I don't.....
HI Gary, We are all still learning as far as I am concerned.
What do some of you think of sizing with a regular die then use mandrel to open case more, then seat a bullet?
I basically do exactly that. I want to clarify that I do not have a expanding device in the die when I do the FL size.
Thanks! Nice video
Should I be full resizing after every time I shoot?
I do, but you have to do what works for you.
@@BoltActionReloading Thanks!
What about case bounceback?
You will get brass springback but it is more consistent than the conventional expander ball used in a sizing die.
Which Zediker book covers this?
Reloading for competition.
Thanks!
Great information!
+jeff young thanks!
Hab2e you fooled around with say a REDDING FL bushing die, remove expander and bushing so it just sizes the body. Then use the Lee collet sizing die? Oh wait then the shoulder won't get bumped back right?
I have not. I so far haven't been a fan of collet dies. I am sure you could use a body dies and then a collet die but not sure exactly what that would buy you.
@@BoltActionReloading if i get a REDDING S type FL bushing die and remove decap mandrel and bushing would it size just the body or would it still bump it back too?
I would think it would push the shoulder back, but I dont own one to know for sure.
@@BoltActionReloading they work great for belted magnum,fortunecookie45 does a vid,that's what brought me here.sam from panhandlepresion also.
I picked up one of these in kit form, it gives you 3 calibers to choose from to make up your kit, it's a good deal. K&M also makes a kit, which is worth looking at. Comes with 5 different size mandrels in it, just that each kit is caliber specific. If you have a minimum size neck in your die, you can set neck tension in .0005 increments with the K&M kit. Could give you more flexibility on neck tension than a bushing die, and it is cheaper. I was using two step M die expanders on one cartridge for cast bullets, and really noticed how much better they worked than using the expander that comes with the standard dies. It provoked the thought that I should do it that way on everything I have.
kmshooting.com/custom-diameter-expand-mandrel-kit-for-bullet-tension-main.html
Though greater flexibility I don't understand the cheaper comment. Unless I am missing something these look like over $50 per size and the Sinclair ss option is only $10.
@@BoltActionReloading The link shud go to the page that lists the kit, it shows as being 74.50 (?) for the 5 mandrel kit with the die.
I don't get why I'd need something like this when I'm using bushing dies already.
lots of talk please show how it is used.
I want so badly to like this channel. But i find so much of it incredibly annoying. From the endless footage of a wall, to the huge amount of words used to convey little information, the use of “guys” WAY too much, poor font choice, etc. Why put all those words on screen at once and on an overlay? Use a black background! Larger font and multiple pages! And after all this load development and huge amount of money spent on things like AMP annealer, the groups are overall not especially impressive. Sorry to be so harsh, please take this in the spirit of improvement with which it is intended.
Hi G5, I certainly am guilty of not being perfect. I have tried heavily to improve in a lot of the areas that you mention. Finding a format is a bit of a struggle for me but I have made improvements. I have added more B roll and made my text bigger. I overuse words and I notice as I edit, I am trying to improve this. This particular video is over 2 years old at this point. I hope if you watch something more current that you see some improvements. I am not offended by the feedback, always appreciate good suggestions rather than some that just thumbs down the video and go along. I really need a shock collar every time I use the words "guys, obviously, and a few others" but I am trying to break the bad habit.
BAR
@@BoltActionReloading I regret posting my original comment, it was needlessly critical and not helpful. It was selfish venting. I want to publicly apologize to you. Thank you for making the videos.
Hi G5, Thank you, but no need to worry. Your comment was far more polite than some I have had and it wasn't untrue. They are things I need to work on. I hope you continue to put up with me and let me know what could be improved upon when I can. I have received lots of great comments and feedback and that is how we all learn.
Why do most of the calipers I see being used are cheap Chinese tools If you really want a true measurement use a quality micrometer, like Brown& Sharp or Starrett? Or am I being anal about this being an old Tool Maker?