Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
I wrote a small book not long ago, entitled, The Church is Not the Church, using my real name of D. L. And it came to many of your conclusions. That's why I find your messages so similar to the ones I've been saying. My book is also a journey I took from my time in the churches of Christ as a member and minister to where I'm at now. And though I'm no longer in that particular church, there are certain values that have stayed with me. One is to speak where the Bible speaks and to be silent where the Bible is silent, which was voiced by one of the founders of that church in America. The other, while in that institution was uttered by an old preacher during my growing up years, "A chapter and verse for everything we believe and practice." Of course, that also includes the two heavy weights in the fight, context and the harmony of the Scriptures.
One night about 25 years ago, I walked over to a Church that was only 2 blocks away. It sat off the road so you could miss it if you weren't looking in that direction. I knew nothing at all about it, but it was close so I made a point of going over their someday. It was kind of small(it's still there), but I didn't care anything about that. It said "The Church of Christ" on the front which meant nothing to me as a denomination. To me is just meant Christian. I went in and sat on the 3rd row and everyone seemed really happy and very nice and welcoming to me. The preacher began by saying, " I want to begin tonights sermon with a question for you all. The question is, "Can God Trust You?" without thinking I just said out loud of course not! WOW, the room changed from friendly to hostile FAST! That was the wrong answer! I knew that I could not even trust me, let alone God! In this church they all thought God could trust them!
Deeply appreciate your comments as I share likeness in your journey. For mine, the truth stands as truth no matter who says it in relation to the Bible and proper interpretation and context. Our traditions and biases have been among Satan's greatest tools for division which has more than not nothing to do with our salvation. What really unites us or divides us? We need grace for our ignorance and imperfections - and agree to disagree that glorifies God and not ourselves in our desire to be righteous before Him. The attitude of the apostle Paul was deep seeded in humility to know "I am the worst of sinners" which I am inclined to argue, "No, Paul, it's me!" Blessings to you.
@@orangeandslinkyI’m sorry that happened to you! I’m a member of the CoC and that should never have happened. Can I ask what area you are in? Sometimes that makes a difference in how churches react to certain things.
This series is so needed for the followers today! It’s everything I’ve found in searching the scriptures myself! Music has become a hypnotic event when God says we should be sober of mind. Not an emotional high that disappears as soon as you walk out the doors.
“If you have to give a ‘carnival’ to get people to come to church, Then you will have to keep giving ‘carnivals’ to keep them coming back.” ~ Rev Charles Spurgeon ~~~ :o
Additionally, carnivals, large screens, huge buildings cost millions that could be used to minister to orphans and widows and be sent with missionaries to spread the gospel. Tithes and offerings are the Lord’s and we would do well to be mindful of how he said to spend those funds in the Bible.
I am very appreciative of your series, Pastor Wadsworth. I am a senior Christian woman living in a regional city of Tasmania, the smallest Australian state and attend an Anglican church. I do appreciate this church, as I see there is a number of ways where the leadership of the church is spread over people who bring different ministrations to the people during the service. Each week different people read the gospel, introduce each aspect of the service, deliver the sermon and play an instrument for the singing. The hymns are generally older style. hymns. During the week there are groups held for further edification of the believers. I have occasionally been to other churches and like the way this Anglican church has evolved to where it is now.
I'm a songwriter. I try to be. So many songs come as prayers. If you read your Word, and you are human and you love, get hurt, fail, sin, look up to God and start again, then the songs come out like psalms. It's a relationship with God. Of course, it is personal. David's psalms were personal, and he screwed up morally, yet his psalms minister to many people. David was ministering to himself when he wrote the psalms. He was sincere. I believe that some songs have certainly been blessed to be used by God over generations. That would be considered a great work to me, to be part of something God planned and ordained. As a Christian songwriter, I'd have to say that Amazing Grace may be the greatest song ever written, because the guy that wrote it was just the co-author
This is the best presentation on church music I have ever seen. I am 60, grew up in church and approx. 30 years ago sang in a Southern Gospel trio that did 60-70 bookings per year for 25 years. I have been a member of the same church for 20 yrs and have always been asked to sing solos, that is until the last year, when our church got a new music minister who changed everything to the new worship music. Just like you said, this excluded me and many other people who always used to sing solos. At this time me and my wife have our eyes open for a church that still sings hymns and gospel songs but they are few.
I’m sorry for your loss. We do an intentional mix of old hymns, new hymns & spiritual songs at our church, but no solos, as we try to stay away from performances. I hope you find the right place for you.
I've heard the "rock star" analogy before and absolutely cringed when you brought it up here. Being subjected to "the worship team" is a major reason why I stopped going to church services. How far from Christ's instructions to the church have we fallen?! It's sad. Satan has hijacked the idea of "worship" and I think our eyes are coming open to that fact.
These huge buildings, movie screens, sound equipment etc cost millions and millions of dollars that would be better placed helping orphans, widows, the elderly, homeless and on missions work to share the gospel. Tithes and offerings are the Lords and we don’t have the right to party on it when he has given us clear instructions on how these funds are to be spent in the Bible.
We had a friend who went to a mainline church but became disenchanted at the latest fund drive for a new organ. I guess the argument of allocation of offerings for the worship space versus outreach is always going to be with us.
It ‘s interesting that the concept of a large church and ministry to orphans, widows, missions are being presented as mutually exclusive. Throwing everyone into an either or position assumes a lot without actually knowing what these churches do. Of course, you can find your exact argument. I attend a pretty large church that the focus is totally about missions in all the examples you presented.
"Worship is not for our enjoyment, but for God's enjoyment" - Donald Hustad. -> Ps 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Thanks for digging into the trance issue. I've been harping on that one for years. Of course they always try to refute me by bringing up Peter's trance in Acts.
When we evaluate songs before bringing them into our music repertoire, we name whether they are: proclamation, petition, praise, exhortation or call or action. We also evaluate the theological, lyrical & musical considerations. Some are more horizontal & some are more vertical. We can do both!!
If you think, you will realize all the lies they are telling you. Of course they don't want you to think. This is why Republicans were taken over by evangelicals- they got their members to stop thinking! Don't believe what you see and what you hear - only believe what I tell you
@@brotito9126 There are lawyers and physicians in every church, spiritually speaking. The key is balance between the two with love and respect to maturity and growth - open to the Spirit that leads. When the flesh leads, Satan is near.
The biggest problem since the mid 90's is that the worship team are drowning out the congregation. They are standing up there like a pop group. And the Church are trying to sing along to sings that have been written for Christian pop artists. Sings not meant for the congregation as they are not easy to remember or sing along to.
I’ve been involved in music ministry over the years, usually dragging into it by my stage-manager mother when I was younger. She was difficult enough, but at least she wasn’t constantly attacking me like some of the girls I met in that role. Talented people would enjoy the adoration with some measure of grace towards the others, but people who weren’t actually that good would viscously attack anyone they saw as competition. It’s the most toxic group in churches.
I was in the midst of music ministry for years, decades. Different styles, Different groups, different churches. Much of it was very good, but I can clearly see how having these very biblical guidelines would have saved a world of time, treasure, talent & trouble! That said, I have also seen how groups of people who love music and love God can create the sort of “one anothering” group that is so integral to a healthy church. Sometimes I listen to uncut cassette tapes of rehearsals, and I hear the everyday love and concern and fun of those days gone by (Not to mention the highs and the lows of our musicianship!😂) And I think back on how we developed those relationships throughout the week, it wasn’t just about the job we had on Sunday morning.
The older are commanded to teach the younger- that won't happen when leaders wrongly divide the body into differing groups with different tastes. The younger are ruling most churches these days which explains a lot of our troubles. They simply aren't qualified to lead as the Bible requires.
In Iowa and Minnesota we had worship wars in Lutheran and other churches in the '60s and '70s! It started with the Jesus Movement music in southern California (folk-rock and rock) and the 'Scripture in Song' movement from New Zealand.
@1Whipperin the word 'pastor' refers to the activity of 'shepherding' done by the qualified elders of the church and is found a several times in the New Testament both as a noun (Shepherd) and as a verb (shepherds or shepherding).
@jltc5478 Yes. shepherd is a function, not a title. The function teacher is found in the NT, but no one had the title, Teacher. Jesus commanded against such titles among the brethren. Matthew 23 8-12
I once made a statement about worship and you'd think i had blasphemed God from all the flack i received. My statement was "Our worship is TO God, but it's FOR us." Meaning that our worship does nothing to change God, but everything to change us. God doesn't "need" our worship to elevate him he is already above all. He is also the "source" of life and it does us good to plug into the source from time to time in order to be rejuvinated. (Ya know, like the energizer bunny. Go ahead, flog me now, I can take it.)
I AGREE WITH YOU. Wholeheartedly. I find that it’s mostly Europeans that have a huge problem with the singing with emotions… meanwhile HEAVEN will be filled with people from all nations shouting dancing and singing and I’m sure there will be moments of stillness and meditation. God created ALL people who will respond to the gospel and sing it to a groove and dance and have.. dare I say FUN.. celebrating ( another cuss word to these cessationist .. mostly white circles) CELEBRATION 🤸🏽♂️🤸🏽♂️🤸🏽♂️. That means move and rejoice. It is finished! To my white sisters and brothers who enjoy a grooving time celebrating the King.. that wasn’t for you.. And all of my other sisters and brothers.. Asian Latino… etc etc… let’s have fun!
I'm glad you included the "Mystical Trance". There's more to it than you even say, esp in some churches. I've heard a worship leader talk about using repetition and certain chords to achieve an impressionable mindset in the audience. This primed the audience to accept the "miraculous" events on stage. This is from a church very well known for the music it produces.
I love contemporary worship music. It helps me connect to God and it's good music too. I find it ironic that he says modern worship music is not 'horizontal' enough, as I've heard other older Christians make the opposite complaint.
Contemporary songs were all the rage in the early Methodist Societies founded by John Wesley. Charles Wesley composed hundreds of new hymns that were much better than what the Anglican hymnody of the time … And yes, young people were interested and enthusiastic about the new. That was in the 1700s.
Actually, many of the tunes to which Charles Wesley set his lyrics were popular drinking songs: my brother got a minor in Church music, and often sung both versions to prove this point. At the time I thought it rather clever, but given how we know how memes work in this day and, I just now realized how deliciously subversive a move it was looking back on it.
Your quote from 1 Corinthians 14:9 says to me that the hymns must be intelligible, not the archaic language that some prefer which I find unintelligible or just awkward to sing. I like modern songs, but there is no need for more than 2 at any church meeting.
I am one of the older women now and fortunately the Anglican church I attend in a regional city in the smallest Australian state of Tasmania has over the years spread out the way that each part of the service is delivered by different people each week and the music is generally older hymns. At present because of my age I am watching online.
I've been a worship leader or on the teams in several places. I totally agree with the over emphasis on the sensual in todays church music. It's always a pattern, start off slow, then work up to a drumming frenzy, singing certain lines a thousand times. Appealing to the senses and feeling good. I also agree that the 60s had the best music, and Gods favorite music is rock. 😂
I agree with you. I have also been a worship leader for various groups in the past. I never started off slow and worked up to a frenzy! I always followed the Tabernacle pattern, "enter His gates with thanksgiving, and into His courts with praise" and only then would we be in a proper place to "hishtachavah" before His throne in the Holy of Holies. This very often meant starting fast and joyful and ending very quiet and reverential, concluding with total silence. To prepare beforehand I would sit with my music books before the Lord and ask Him to direct my choice, and we would put them in order. I would play a transitional passage on the guitar between each one to accommodate any change of key, and the whole session would flow seamlessly. I always considered it a huge privilege to be able to do this. Later in the meetings I would often sing a solo (also pre-chosen by the Lord) and would never accept applause - I never wanted any focus to be on me, but only that I should be used as a channel by the Lord to bring people to His throne. For me, leading worship was never a performance but always a corporate act, with myself as an equal participant.
When polls show that the majority of people under forty are abandoning the church, obviously, getting the contemporary music they like isn’t enough. The church can conduct a weekly, Sunday morning Christian Rock concert and it’s not feeding their souls. The younger generation is voting with their feet alright; they aren’t opting for a contemporary worship experience, they are simply opting out.
At large church they have a waiting list of over 100 people that want to perform, but will only if it’s on the main stage at main services. Refuse to play at smaller stages of church or small meetings.
And that should tell you everything you need to know about whether they are fit for service in the church music program at this time: This is not the model of the servant who will wash his brothers feet.
One example of the difference between the KJV and NIV can be seen in Ephesians 5:19. "Speaking to "yourselves" in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" I believe this line is about personal improvement. Each individual is to become a new man. The whole epistle seems to be directed at each individual member within the church.
You talk about the shift of contemporary music as exclusionary … It certainly works both ways: The traditionalists often say to the younger generation: “If you’re going to be here, you’re going to do it right (meaning, we’re going to keep things traditional.)
I have been a worship leader many times. I'm in the process of bringing together a fellowship, focused on the study of the Wored. No preacher, and no worship leader. I'll have a worship jam during the week, for the purpose o0f playing together on a regular basis, and learning each others playing habbits and styles. During our gatrherings, any can play, and if they want to lead out in a song, they can. Body ministry. My thinking is, if we jam to gether, we can flow together during the weekly ,holy convocation. Good or bad, God accepts a right heart in worship. I've seen times when God rejected the best quality music, and accepted the worst, from a right heart. Ya'all pray fer me.
And we must not presume anything. I pray for us all to examine ourselves regularly, in meekness, that the Lord may have a way to speak to us, as He did through the apostle John, whom He found faithful to hear and to share, even to the 7 Churches of Revelation 2 & 3.
hi Tom, you are so spot on! The trance the hands up and the music has gone so far from the truth of the gospel. We went to one church where there was 30 minutes of singing, with trances and hands up window washing etc ( it is so silly) (and i think the band thought they were rock stars) then 10 minutes of announcement then another 20 minutes of singing then the pastor did a 20 minute talk then you guessed it another 30 minutes of singing!!!! It drove me insane and i cannot go back, because i know first century Christians did not do this. What is really offensive is the band shuffling about getting their instruments ready during prayer!!! They dont even bow their heads and stop, let alone listen, it is great disrespect for God. I could go on, but you get the picture. Jesus said, God is looking for those who worship in spirit and truth, he is not looking for entertainers. No wonder the church is in decline, the world looks on and thinks Christians are fools because of the way they behave.
Lifting up holy hands is perfectly fine with me. I don't want to visit a mausoleum. But I don't lift my hands to today's crap phony worship music. And to be honest, I can't stand organ music; it belongs in either a Catholic church or a vampire movie.
Totally agree. That’s why I don’t go at this time. I got tired of hour long ( non inspired) music with just repetitious words sang over and over. When I did go, I went an hour late to miss most of that and to hear the word.
seems to me there was something written about vain repetitions, right? the disrespect, i think, is more horizontal, toward other believers. God is capable of defending Himself. it is also written that as we do unto others we do unto Him. you're right though, bottom line it's still disrespectful.
Went to a " church service" where they hand out complimentary earplugs at the door if you prefer them because the "worship" music is so loud. No thank you, I'll pass on the whole "worship experience" 😂
On the subject of Contemporary Christian Music I would have a different take on it. On the positive side I think that to the extent that it encourages a joyful expression of love for God, it is beneficial. On the negative side I think that it lacks theological depth and range of artistic expression. Critics have complained that it all sounds alike. And some former CCM performers themselves who have become disillusioned have pointed out that it is too commercialized -- the aim is not to glorify God but to turn a profit. Give me the great classic hymns of the past! (And the best congregational singing I have heard was done by churches that sing acappella!).
I do love having a playlist on TH-cam, and a playlist on Apple, from different eras and different genres, with Music that lets me speak my heart… as I drive! Or do house work! I’ve been up front at church, and I often still am in our small-group that meets on Sunday morning within the big church, but I have always liked it best when I was just one of a large group, Especially when singing with awesome harmony! But I do find it very awkward when we repeat things too much, even though we have some horizontal songs that make it fun to connect with other people in the room. If the room has a more circular orientation, people don’t have to be a music “leader/performer” in order to make these horizontal connections with others!
@@bitrudder3792 Today I attended a Sacred Harp convention, which is quite an experience. It's an all-day hymn sing, but using historic old early American shaped note hymns. The singers sit in a "hollow square" formation, different ones take turns leading the songs, and it is all done in four part acapella harmony.
Hymns were modern music at one point in time and some were very much dislike or thought to be too exciting. We only think they are normal because if many years. One day the music from 1980s/1990s and today will be consider out-of-date. Read "101 Hymns" by Kenneth Osbeck.
I agree that modern music can allow for more participation although that is usually through large institutional churches. It's not realistic to think this would be possible in a small group or assembly. Furthermore, there are many temptations associated with such groups like the false notion of a worship leader position, creating ones own brand name, wanting to be financially compensated (even through worldly means) and the content of one's musical lyrics. As one person has said somewhere, "Musicians should be held to the same standard as teachers or pastors are." I agree as what they do is also a form of prophesy and therefore needs to be judged.
I use to belong to a charismatic/arminian “church “ where it was structured like that. They had an 8:30 AM “quiet “service and an 11:30 Celebration/Worship Service which was wild when compared to the early morning service.
This is almost exactly the same time the Catholic charactersmatic renewal started. According to theologians Peter Hocken, Tony Richie and Christopher Stephenson, the Catholic charismatic renewal is intrinsically ecumenical and has given rise to covenant communities with members from major Christian denominations who lead a "shared life based on baptism in the Holy Spirit". Calvary chapel is a charismatic church which started the modern ecumenical music that we hear today in churches.
I don’t believe CCLI manages hymns since they are not under copyright, so of course the top songs are modern. We include 25-50% hymns in our sets. And we sing a lot of new hymns, like “In Christ Alone.” There is a swing back to writing songs of depth.
I attended a service that featured a loud band ( “worship team”🙄) , and the pastor stopped the music to direct people to raise their hands . Didn’t comply . It was so manipulative.
@@frogking-v4k the pastor is very nice - and he doesn’t deviate from scripture. He is very into music ( he and his wife are musicians) , and he sees music as an imperative to worship, likely because it’s such a “happy place” for him personally. We all have our flat spots , so I don’t want to be the church grinch who plants a flag and dies on a weird hill.
I would've raised my finger; maybe even both of them. What I hate worse than that is when they try to make you repeat things after them like good little propagandized puppets.
@@Caleb-xf5yn yeah . I spoke with him after the service - told him that it forces people to perform and engage in a process of providing feedback for the musicians and has nothing to do with worship. People who cooperated/obeyed looked like they were being held up by a robber , not worshipping. It was odd and very unhealthy . He politely listened- his wife seemed ti get it.
The Modern " Worship " songs of today, are not even in the same Universe as the the wonderful Hymns! And im talking from nearly 50 years of personal experience and study as well. Most of today's " Christian" musuc is biblically an d theologically inept,it is weak, shallow, repetitive, worldly and easily forgotten. The Hymns are powerful, Majestic, deeply spiritual, anointed of the Spirit, biblically sound,timeless, and have remained fresh and meaningful for decades and even Centuries! Comparing thd Hymns to today's contemporary contemporary " Christian " music is like Comparing fine Gold with cheap tin- foil!
Everything that is old now was once new. There will be timeless songs coming out of this era, just as there have been timeless songs coming out of others. And sometimes the older hymns weren’t able to connect with me easily until the stilted melody was updated to something singable. Beautiful words deserve to be made more accessible.
Look at the lyrics people! Can you really not find the truth of the songs? Look at the song of Moses on Deuteronomy 32 or Exodus 15 or the Psalms, they don't seem like songs and NO One even the hymn lovers would sing those. It is my heart that those who love hymns (I'm one) will also grow to look at the songs and not idolize hymns
Perhaps, we can just say that our church buildings are the equivalent of these house church gathering venues during the New Testament times because the gospel has so widely spread converting or winning souls speedily in the course of time, whereby, some gatherings increased by hundreds of thousands. Therefore, houses are no longer fit for these gatherings. But come to think of it, these big gatherings of thousands of people started really at some point in the garage, receiving rooms, at houses, some at malls. Eventually the people themselves decided to build buildings to accommodate their growing numbers. There are systems wherein these large numbers where subdivided into cell groups or groups of 12 and the likes. These big churches would even increase having daughter churches all over everywhere. The real problem is we began as one universal body to be divided into denominations, doctrines, and other factors. But in small villages, these biblical concept of small house gatherings are still going on everyday. And as soon as the number grows from 50 to 100, they will decide to find a larger place, then build a building with a name to identify their fellowship. Then the mode of fellowship changes from intimate to legalistic, ceremonial rituals and programs. 🌹
Of course it would be logical for the early believers to meet in homes. Where else would they meet? Jewish followers of course would have been used to going to the temple but that would no longer be available to them. Gentiles also went to the temple to perform their religious duties, but now that they are Christ followers that wouldn't be an option so it seems logical and even convenient to meet in one another's homes. Also persecution became an issue so Christians needed to stay on the "down low" as they say. All very logical and appropriate reasons to be meeting in Believers homes. Those were the circumstances and the culture in which they lived. Our time and culture as believers has greatly changed and expanded the available options in how to assembling together and function as a church. Personally, I believe the first century model is a good one but I think we also need to be aware of the surrounding influences that resulted in early believers meeting in homes and that of course the Lord didn't say, " Thou shall henceforth assemble only in homes now and ye shall call it "Home Church " 😄 but theyre were more factors involved.
@ Ok~Thanks. I was aware that you could choose to commercialize your site or not. I do know brothers in Christ who chose not to monetize their youtube channels. It's encouraging to know there are a very few in the Body of Christ who do not use the Glorious Name and Truth of Christ as a Marketing product. They follow Freely received, Freely give. Blessings!
Its interesting to see how ingrained nonscriptual things are in the church.Things like communion. Jesus did NOT say "Hey, once a week, maybe once a month or once a quarter do this in worship of me. He said EVERY time you do this, do it in rememberence of me. Why did he say this? Wnat was his message? He is the bread of life. If you dont eat for 3 months guess what - you die. Making a ritual out of this was so.wrong. i know, the Catholics blew it with whole we are cannibals routine, but for me and my family - every meal is that reminder.
As a younger person, I do see the point about horizontal music, I loved the 90's but I still disagree. The problem with today's supposed worship music is that much of it really is "me" centered and not Christ centered! Hymns and new hymns and Christ focused songs remind us of truth causing our focus to be on Him first and then to one another. As we are filled up with the truth by the Lord and His Word., we then can love one another. I do agree that churches use songs, lights and antics to draw up emotional decisionalism and a temporary high instead of focusing on building the body with the Scripture and worship of the Lord at a steady pace. Ps. I did not grow up with any hymns, by the way. I left the shallow teaching and services to search the Word and learn to live in the Truth everyday, not just during some heightened worship experience on Sunday.
a) we are not exhorted to sing perfectly but to make a joyful noise, yes? b) there is utility in the older forms that are predictable. it allows the singer to focus on the lyrics AND allows for writing new lyrics set to familiar tunes. its much more challenging to sing together with a truly new song like what is common nowadays. there's definitely a place for it though! just pointing out that there's also a place for the "'tried and true".
@brotito9126 - Why the sad face, over practicing 6 to 9 hours on a song before sharing it in church? Our group took the attitude, way back then, that we didn’t want to be distracted by doing the mechanics of notes, tempo, etc., correctly so that we couldn’t appreciate the words as we sang and played. And we didn’t want the people listening to be wincing at our mistakes, instead of listening to the words. (PS, we simply started practicing songs, many weeks in advance. If it was a difficult one that we loved, a little bit at a time. It didn’t feel like an onerous burden.
In the Plymouth Brethren, we have always called our gathering "the assembly". We call the weekly remembrance meeting or Lord's supper our "worship" meeting because He is the focus of that session. "Do this for a calling of Me to mind." Also, the music is sung a cappella and is always about Christ. Never is it about us. Attention cannot be draw to any one individual. Everything else we do is for the edification of the body of Christ: prayer meetings, Bible readings, elder teaching sessions.
Haven’t attended church in a decade. When I was going to church as a late teen my parents criticized me for taking notes about the pastors sermon. Specifically I was noting everything that Chuck Swindoll said that I wasn’t sure about and needed to verify later with scripture. Apparently it was bad to not take the pastor at his word for everything. Most churches I’ve attended were a joke, big or small.
The apostle Paul would’ve definitely approved of your decision to take notes and test things out. I have been fortunate to be in a church that encourages that attitude for the last quarter century and even when I challenge them on points where I feel like they are bowing to the traditions of man instead of what the scripture says, they are very gracious to me, as I try to be to them. As it should be. Church isn’t the building, and we art admonished not to avoid gathering with other believers. So I hope you’re finding believers to connect with in person on a regular basis. Wherever two or three are gathered… That means you only have to find one other believer to hang out with to have church! I especially loved having “Church” in person with anyone who would let me do so during the P Demic, without the useless face diaper (research does NOT support using that).😊 I consider every day a good day to have “Church.”
This feels so sad and more of an attack and this is very different than the previous lessons likely because it is personal opinion and no bible. "Mystical trance" "pump up" the bible literally says David dances until he didn't look dignified. What about terms Barak or prostrate, we are allowed and even commanded to shout. You should have emotions. You have emotions EVERWHERE in life but not in church or towards God. Really? If your relationship with Him doesn't invoke more emotion than your local HS football team. This is a problem.
I agree. There should be a balance & good doctrine taught in our songs, but if we are engaged fully, our emotions & our body are involved. If we use our hands when we speak, then why not use them when we’re speaking to God.
I agree with your message. You did not cover that the seven eleven approache (repetition of words) can create the trance state. Also look at new age occult influences too.
Modern Christian music is appealing to the soul creating a certain mood instead of wanting to increase in the holy spirit and maturity equipping Christians for a Christ pleasing life. Modern Christian music is often so loud that it reminds me of a rock concert and can make us deaf or hard of hearing ( the loudness hurts many people, it is also known that it can induce seizures , in China Christians are tortured with horrible noises that can drive them insane) long term Christians might all have to learn the deaf language when the high number of decibels have killed their precious hearing. All for the sake of: " The young like it, we want to keep them in church." TKS Dr. Wadsworth, great analysis!
Modern church services are designed to do one thing and one thing only - to manipulate you. It's so passive aggressive. Let's stand, let's sit. Let's sing songs and get all emotional so that when the preacher tells you he needs $65 million for a new jet you ont even stop to ask what he is doing with the other three. They don't want you to think, because if you do, you might ask questions that they don't have answers to. If you do, and you do it often enough, you will be asked to leave because the only possible reason for your question is you are a demon
I’m not comfortable with trance states in church, either. That said, I don’t condemn it because it’s actually in the Bible. Peter was in a trance when he received the vision that led him to accept Gentiles. John was probably in a trance when he received the revelation. And there are several interesting instances in the Old Testament, such as king Saul prophesying. So, again, I don’t know what to do with that, but there it is as a normal mode of prayer to the true God. The needy God thing, I don’t get that at all. There are so many Psalms that command us to sing praises to God. It seems more like something we need to do, not something that he needs from us. Also, about modern music being a fad, maybe hymns are a fad too? Who is to say that 1800-1920 was the golden age of church music? Why don’t we sing songs from the 500’s or 900’s? Actually there are a few very ancient melodies in an average hymnal, but they don’t get used a lot. Thank you for sharing your work, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying.
While I'm in full agreement that singing is for the edification, and maybe I'm jumping the gun here and you clarify this later on, we should understand something. God didn't need incense either. He didn't need Cain's offering. God didn't need Noah to build the ark. But there were still commands. We realize from reading the Bible that Cain's offering was not accepted. We read that Nadab and Abihu's incense was considered profane fire and God killed them saying in Letiticus 10:3 "‘By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified." And I think we all know that if Noah had not built the ark as God told him to, he would not have been saved from the flood. It's not about what God needed, it's about what God commanded. What He wants from us isn't be cause He has to have it but because there's a reason for it. And also, what He doesn't want can cause problems. If God did not tell us to do certain things for Him, or if we decide to do something different than how He told us to do it, we shoudln't do it or do it that way. Again, I agree that what we do is for the edification of the saints, we should not forget that Paul also said that whatever we do, do all for the glory of God. "Glory" in the verses that talk about "for the glory of God" is translated fro the transliterated word "doxa" which is also translated as "dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship." and "worship" in the NKJV Luke 14:10 and Revelation 14:7. I believe that edifying one another with love in spirit and in truth gives honor and glory to God. it is a form of praise. This is how it translates to spiritual 'worship". Jesus linked the two together as well. Sahying that the greatest commandmend is to love God and that loving people is like the first. If we love God, we will love people and when we love people, we are loving God. This is how it works when assembling as well.
Here's a key contention of my presentation: The Bible does not view the assembly as falling under the classification of "worship." My 300-page doctoral dissertation investigates this concept in great detail. It's striking that "worship" language is not applied to the assembly, either in the NT or for the first 200 years of post-NT Christianity. Our tendency to view our assemblies as "worship" and "offerings" is based on a flawed idea that was inherited from hundreds of years of tradition, which basically came from Catholic and Orthodox teachings from the fourth century. See the evidence provided in video #6: th-cam.com/video/4CfNZbjK6Sg/w-d-xo.html.
@@tomwadsworth I agree with you that the assembly itself is not worship. believe me, you have been saying things in these videos that I've been thinking for a while now. And it's much appreciated and a relief to hear someone else say what I've been thinking as it pertains to how the assembly was "conducted", if you will. The way you've done this study on "worship" is almost identical to how I did a study a lil while back on the word "religion". I actually am rather impressed at the depth and efforts you've put into this study. I've learned a lot. So then help me understand something. IN John 4:24, where Jesus said to the woman at the well, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." And, as you already pointed out, it's using the Greek word pertaining to prostration. So, how exactly would one prostrate oneself in spirit and in truth. I get what you're saying about how many religious people have worship wrong but perhaps, if I may, it is not that the word "worship" is wrong but that worship, both word and action, is misunderstood. As spiritual "worship" in this instance would be we spiritually prostrate ourselves to God by our offerings of praise. Offerings of honor and glory. Remember Romans 12:1. (NKJV) "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." "Service" is translated from one of the Greek words you illustrated "λατρείαν" transliterated "latreia". I believe that this would pertain to both in the assembly and in life, just like the book of Ephesians was/is. I guess what I'm eluding to is if Jesus said to prostrate ourselves in spirit and in truth, as He related this to temple worship, then would it not be considered spiritual prostration(biblical worship) to present our own bodies to the service(biblical worship) of God? Just as when Paul told Timothy saying men should lift up holy hands, when studied means holy works which translates from the OT of the physical works in the sanctuary to the spiritual works in the NT temple AKA body AKA the assembly. Am I making sense here?
You asked, "So, how exactly would one prostrate oneself in spirit and in truth?" Every time the word proskuneo (wrongly translated as "worship") is used in a temple context in the NT and LXX, it means "to prostrate oneself" before the deity. So, when Jesus refers to prostrating in spirit and truth, he is telling Jews and Samaritans that this obligatory temple gesture (prostration) is to be done with inward sincerity ... which is the natural way to understand "in spirit and truth." In essence, Jesus is saying the same thing he said in the Sermon on the Mount about praying, fasting, and giving alms. These temple duties must be done with inward sincerity, not for an outward display of religiosity (Mt 6:1-18). As Mt 6:1 says, “Take care not to practice your righteousness in the sight of people, to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." There is nothing in the context of John 4 that indicates that Jesus is referring to Christian gatherings. The key noteworthy part of John 4:20-24 is the implication that the "place" (Jn 4:20) of prostration is about to become insignificant. Since "God is Spirit" (4:24) he cannot be confined within the four walls of any sacred building, whether in Jerusalem or on Mt Gerizim. I think that Jesus is making yet-another hint (see Jn 2:19) that the temple is about to be destroyed, which will radically change the entire first-century concept of "religion" (which your study likely discussed).
Additional note: These discussions inevitably get mired in confusion when we use the English term "worship." When you say "temple worship," are you referring to temple prostration (proskuneo), temple sacrificing (latreia), or priestly temple work (leitourgia)? When you say "biblical worship," the same problem and confusion exists. If you want to talk about what Christians do when they get together, it's better and clearer to talk about Christian "assemblies" or "gatherings" or "meetings." These are the words that the NT uses (e.g., ekklesia, sunago, sunerchomai) to describe such gatherings. When we use biblical language to discuss biblical topics, then our discussion is likely to stay in concert with the biblical text.
@@kellytisdale7322I want to offer my own answer to this, both to help myself understand, and to help you as well. I believe that prostrating yourself spiritually is to deny your desires, emotions, temptations, and thoughts, and to carefully weigh each against scripture, only allowing those which honor God to be put into practice. To prostrate yourself in truth has more than one meaning, I believe. Foremost, Jesus is the truth. Clearly we should worship Him. Secondly, and more closely related to spirituality, we prostrate our own ideas and beliefs to the truth and reality. We are to always subjugate our mind to only work within that which is true and not lies.
Mr Wadsworth, great presentation! Based on the NT, what do you see as the role of women (married and/or single) in the assembly you describe? Might they be among the speakers in the current day? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Good question ... way too good. You're touching on the great Complementarian vs. Egalitarian debate, and noted scholars have landed on both sides of this issue (i.e., women CANNOT speak vs. women CAN speak in the assembly). Try googling "Complementarian and Egalitarian" and you'll see how different scholars deal with the issue. But since you asked me, here's my take. I used to lean toward the NOT view, citing the specific admonitions in 1 Cor 14:34-35 and 1 Tim 2:10-15. But this view has problems. In Acts 2, Peter cites Joel 2, which says, "Your sons and daughters will prophesy ... on my male and female servants I will pour out my Spirit." In Acts 21:9, Luke mentions "four prophetesses" at Caesarea in the house (probably the house church) of Philip the evangelist. In 1 Cor 11:5, Paul mentions women who were "praying or prophesying," and most likely this was done in an assembly. Personally, I gain much from hearing a woman's point of view because men don't always have a balanced view of all the factors in a situation. It seems a shame to deprive any Christian assembly from hearing the thoughts of Christian women who have also been endowed with the Holy Spirit and a healthy amount of wisdom and understanding. In my experience, women usually have a better grasp of key Christian virtues such as compassion, empathy, dignity, kindness, patience, gentleness, etc. Regardless of whether you support Trump or Biden, I think both men exemplify the common male leadership problems of arrogance, bull-headedness, and divisive sectarianism. My point: Just as children need a mother and a father, adults need leadership and input from men and women. People suffer when forced to live without male or female input. Here's one more issue that is rarely mentioned. Those who would allow women to speak in assembly (i.e., egalitarians) say that, when Paul disallowed women speaking, he was only enforcing a local cultural code that does not have application in cultures that freely allow women to speak. Those who would restrict females from speaking in an assembly (i.e., complementarians) usually say, "No, Paul's statements are NOT culturally based because he cites the order of creation as part of the reason why they should remain silent (1 Tim 2:13-14). HOWEVER, Paul uses the same 'creation order argument' when he commands that women must wear a veil (1 Cor 11:3, 8, 12). These same complementarians seem to be able to easily dismiss Paul's veil requirement, claiming that it is "cultural." It seems to me that, in order to be consistent, complementarians need to either (1) force the veil on all women, or (2) admit that Paul's restrictions on women speaking are also culturally based. In short, I think your current church's culture will have a strong practical effect on your personal approach. I think Romans 14 is helpful in how to deal with disputes. (1) Be fully convinced in your own mind (Rom 14:5) as to your own view, but (2) do not condemn or despise those who take a different point of view (Rom 14: 3, 4, 10, 13). There is MUCH more to say on this knotty topic, but I hope these brief remarks are helpful.
Thank you for your well-thought-out and gracious response. May I ask another question not to argue but to understand prescription v description, suggestion v command, and other such things? 1 Cor 14:26 speaks to what Paul emphasizes ought encompass an assembly of the saints: a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue (i.e., a language), and an interpretation of the that tongue/language. Let’s set aside tongues for the purpose of my question; that could open Pandora’s box. 😅 In your answer you carefully treaded the egalitarian/complementarian waters, which is both gracious and wise. But if “keep silent” is cultural v. 34,35, then might psalm-teaching-revelation also be cultural? That is my question. Same author, same passage. We know edification (building up) of the saints v. 26b is for all time and not limited to one culture or one time, for God himself in his breathed-out Word (2 Tim 3:16) instructs believers to edify and encourage one another, and to be of good courage (“en” - to bring about, “courage” the ability to do something that frightens one; Latin cor means heart; the opposite is timidity 2 Tim 1:7 and tear down Eph 4:29.) Edification/encouragement of the saints in an assembly is the purpose of meeting together. But back to my question. If women may speak, as you wrote, though Paul said women must be quiet, then what can I make of the description or prescription of v26? Is it a command, a suggestion, a preferred option? Your thoughts? For reference my husband is a pastor of a small home church and I support him in that. We left the institutional church in 2010 persuaded by many of the reasons you outline in your excellent seven message series.
@@LucyMoll In 1 Cor 14, Paul repeatedly hammers away at the importance of edification, i.e., building up one another (v. 3, 4a, 4b, 5, 12, 17, 26). He also hammers away at the same point by requiring speech that is similar to edifying speech (speech that exhorts and consoles, v. 3; speech that benefits others, v. 6; speech that is intelligible, v. 9, 11; speech that contains meaning, v. 11; speech that yields a productive mind, v. 14; speech that is understood, v. 16; speech that instructs others, v. 19; speech that is convicting, v. 24-25; speech that enables others to weigh what is said, v. 29; speech that enables others to learn and be exhorted, v. 31). Paul’s constant message is: Whatever you do, be sure that others are edified by it. In 1 Cor 14, Paul mentions 14 different assembly activities: speaking (λαλέω), prophesying (προφητεύω), tongues (γλῶσσα), revelation (ἀποκάλυψις), knowledge (γνῶσις), teaching (διδαχή), praying (προσεύχομαι), singing/psalms (ψάλλω/ψαλμός), blessing (εὐλογέω), the “amen,” (ἀμήν), giving thanks (εὐχαριστία), instructing (κατηχέω), interpreting (ἑρμηνεία/διερμηνεύω), and passing judgment (διακρίνω). Paul is certainly not prescribing that all 14 activities must be included in every assembly. He is simply describing a long list of possible activities and then demanding that, whatever you do in the assembly, make sure you do it to build up others. This corresponds well with Paul’s constant universal themes-in all his letters-of loving one another, behaving righteously, growing in knowledge, and remaining steadfast. In short, I think you have accurately assessed the situation when you say, “edification (building up) of the saints is for all time and not limited to one culture or one time.” I think Paul would wholeheartedly agree. Does that help?
@@tomwadsworth This is such a thoughtful and thorough reply! It's an issue I have wrestled with for many years. For years I myself (a woman) led house Bible studies. The Lord has given me a great deal of knowledge over the decades as I have studied His Word and I have been privileged to pass on this knowledge to others through a series of courses. There were men in every group I taught. However, I never initiated any group without the express knowledge and permission of the (male) pastor of the church. I have always received very positive feedback from members of the groups as my approach has been very different from that of the usual Bible study groups, taking an overview approach and following the golden thread of redemption through God's progressive revelation, His covenants, prophecy and types and shadows. For several years I studied Biblical Hebrew under a teacher who had studied under a Jewish rabbi and through him I gained many insights into the Hebraic, Biblical viewpoint, cutting through the layers of Hellenistic, pagan-based thought patterns so prevalent in the West. Your point about head coverings is very well put. If you apply one rule, you must apply both. Interestingly, the head covering issue was definitely an important issue in those days "because of the angels" (1 Cor. 11:10), a phrase that always puzzled me until I discovered the reason through further study. It was a common belief in the ancient Near East that a woman's hair was linked with her fertility and would draw the male seed into her womb. The angels referred to were the fallen angels of Gen. 6 who were attracted to the daughters of men, and through them, begat the Nephilim. Covering one's head was a protection against further incursions by fallen angels because they would not be tempted by the beauty of a woman's hair. Obviously we know through modern science that a woman's hair has nothing to do with her fertility. Should we therefore follow Paul's ruling over this, when it no longer has any meaning? I personally do not cover my head in church. I do tend to hold to the view that overall headship/eldership in a fellowship should be male. As a generalisation, women's gifts are not so suited to overall leadership as men's, and can lead to major problems unchecked. We have seen a dreadful result of allowing women into the Anglican ministry over the past decades - rampant feminism leading to the whole debarcle today about the Alphabet folk, none of which has any basis in Scripture. From my personal experience, my happiest times in our long marriage have been those times when my husband has taken strong but gentle leadership, allowing me to trust and relax into my God-given role as supportive helpmate. There is much peace in this. The trouble is, modern society has so emasculated men and advanced the least attractive features of rampant feminism that the characteristics of true male headship are not something that most people are aware of today (made even more difficult because of the denigrating of the "patriarchy" which is supposed to be so damaging) and many men simply have no idea how to be the sort of leaders God designed them to be. This damage has been promoted through the education system, TV entertainment and advertising. As all this has infiltrated the church, it has been made even harder for them. Satan has been very successful in his efforts to destroy the Church from within. Thank you for this excellent video series which has confirmed so much of what I already knew, and filled in the gaps of what I did not. It is all very thought-provoking. May God bless and keep you.
I heard that it was Charles Finney who introduced contemporary music in Christianity. He was of the idea that music will attract young people to come to church, which I don't think they would accept Christ. The problem is, we ended up with false believers. There is a saying amongst Christians that Satan is after music leaders because most of them are arrogant people. But I think the truth is, they have never met Jesus, their talents gave them an audience. What destroyed horizontal music was the one who said worship is not about us but God.
I’m liking this series. Looking at singing makes me wonder if we need to review the use of instruments. I don’t see from those passages that playing instruments was mentioned. You share a lot of about Josephus as a historian so I wonder if there are anything that would help us determine the assembly.
Josephus offers very little information that helps us understand first-century Christian assemblies. Concerning instruments ... In 1 Cor 14, Paul's only extended discussion on behavior in the Christian assembly, he mentions flutes, harps, and trumpets (14:7-8). Just mentioning instruments doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Paul certainly doesn't mention them in a negative light. Throughout the chapter, Paul repeatedly points to edification as the proper purpose and goal of everything done in the assembly (v. 3, 4, 5, 12, 17, 19, 26). He mentions instruments as an example of audible communication that is only meaningful if the hearer recognizes the tune (v. 6-11). So, if someone provides audible communication of speaking in a tongue, it's only useful if others understand what is said (v. 9-11).
Talking of worship wars, some churches insist on a capella singing rather than using instrumental accompaniment, citing the NT's explicit reference to singing only. While I'd like to dispute the legalistic attitude often evident, I must admit that when it comes to intelligibility, these 'a capella congregations know their songs better than those with bands leading the worship. The latter tend to be spectators rather than participators.
That's been my experience from these David Platt church franchises. They come in take people out of local churches and leave the local ones dry. Then they feed off that community of suckers until they get enough money to open up another franchise in the next town. The people that attend them think they're really with it and spiritual.
It’s awkward when scripture itself says That workers are worth their pay. But I feel the same way, Having read biographies of spiritual giants, who relied completely on God for financial provision. But maybe God provides differently for different people in different situations.
I spent about three years under a paid worship pastor, although I’ve played piano in churches for over 40 years. I have to say, it was so refreshing to have things organized, planned ahead, accommodations made for those who couldn’t play as well (music written out, for instance), musical development of those who wanted to learn, being available for 99% of meetings including funerals, holidays, etc. He was worth every penny we paid him in my mind. When someone dedicates their gifts nearly full-time to a church, I believe it’s reasonable to pay them, as they need to support themselves & their family as well.
@@AlphaStudios-lh1rz. I disagree. While I don’t get paid for my ministry playing, which is not my life’s work, I don’t begrudge those who have invested tens of thousands of dollars into their education & instruments to be compensated for much of their time.
@@AZmom60 - The joke at the church I was at in my late 20s and early 30s had A paid choir Director and I suspect the person playing the piano/organ was also compensated during the traditional service. But when the contemporary service started with a group of instruments, she was of the mind that she could show up introducer song and have us do it the following Sunday. For holidays we actually practiced a little bit especially if she was doing some thing for Credit at college and we were the "volunteers." The group actually set a higher bar for itself, because only some of us were professionals (though none of us paid by the church). We selected the music to go along with the expected teaching/liturgy, Change the key, wrote parts as needed, printed what was needed in advance of when it was needed, and we were rewarded by the choir Director deciding who did or did not need a Music Stand (if you had a guitar you did, but if you were just using hand instruments you had to figure out how to make do with turning pages and using the instrument). She change the night of rehearsal even though we weren't taking up space for the regular choir, and we were completely out of sound reach, and there was three places to practice. And she virtually abandoned us so we also organized how the rehearsals should go, Scheduled our practices for different songs out for the number of weeks that we needed to not sound like screw ups. What was really pathetic is that this choir Director was creating chaos in other peoples departments as well, but was a favorite of the pastor so he wouldn't listen and people decided to stop complaining. They just withdrew politely from ministry. When it was clear that she really had to go, she was replaced by someone equally grasping - She appealed to us by making promises to us in return for support of her bid to be hired, and then reneged on everything. Our pastor had a really big blind spot apparently. The church also did not have a biblical process for handling disputes, it had some secular process adapted for the church setting and it really Created more chaos by keeping people from dealing with one another about the conflicts they had. They do say the devil works best in the choir loft, and while we didn't have a loft the main gist of that seems true. I was honestly waiting for the pastor to just say "here's the line." Lovingly and firmly. It wasn't in him to do that. In the end, to put an end to the conflict, the contemporary worship group did outreach to other congregations interested in introducing contemporary worship to their congregations. Our version was pretty much folk, with the occasional pop song but ALWAYS with scriptural lyrics. A number of our songs were straight scripture. We did a fair amount of Acappella stuff as well, updated hymns. Because you can get out of the hymnbook a little bit without sacrificing the mandate to do things decently and in order, and to be kind and sensitive to the people. We were out to offend every grandma and grandpa that loved their old hymns. Although paradoxically, it was the 30 somethings that were attracted to the hymns that we did, and the 60+ crowd that really enjoyed the more upbeat things that we did. Go figure. 🤷🏻♀️
In my experience, the same things happen in many if not most cases where people do the same things. Then, when someone attempts to interpret what was mumbled, they try to spiritualize what they’ve heard.
@joelfields, yes, but the lifting of hands should not be done because someone says so. Rather, it should be done because the one lifting their hands understands why they do it.
The lifting up of hands is to be done as “the receiving of something from God.” So, why do people lift up hands, palms toward God, as is done when you are yelling “Stop!” to something that is coming your way. That seems wrong….i never want to stop what God is sending to me., so shouldn’t we be holding our hands as though we are ready to catch something that is coming to us?…..arms down/palms up.
The church where my mother attended had a clueless worship team. The congregation was older and the worship team only played new hip songs excluding participation by the congregation. One time they did all old songs. The place roared with congregational singing. The worship team never did that again. They just played the new hip songs. To top it off nobody had any good thing to say about the worship team. The worship team seemed to run the church.
That’s crazy. Once we went to Hawaii and visited Kawai Fellowship. Or Kawai Christian Fellowship. Some name like that. Anyway, it was youth Sunday and the old folks were prepared to endure modern songs- but these young people brought out a combination of oldies and beautifully gentle original songs to share. What a beautiful gesture!
Traditional churches often take pride in having the best organist, the best choir, the best bell choir, … etc. Image management is not new by any means.
Modern churches around like businesses, and trusted with money of shareholders. Why would they look for or accept poor/bad musicians to lead the worship? They are supposed to be “saving souls” and bringing in more potential donors to carry the load/further than ministries. And they’re not wrong because people like things like entertainment and childcare/children’s ministries. You get more of what you pay for. I think this is a universal truth. I think this is one of the reasons we need to go back to a model more closely resembling the original church. Every change that we make away from that creates a domino effect of consequences.
There has been plenty of "vertical" songs sang for a couple hundred years. There are plenty of songs in the old hymnals that sing directly to God giving praise to God. In fact, many of the psalms were in direct praise to God. So it's incorrect that the Bible portrays songs as being "horizontal" and "all about us".
@@tomwadsworth Your presentation does say, however, that when people are saying "it's all about God" and you said that it IS, instead, God saying "it's all about you".
Yes, when 1 Cor 14:26 commands, "Let all things (in the assembly) be done for the building up of one another," God is essentially saying, "It's all about you." Our modern church culture often explicitly promotes the opposite, saying, "No, it's all about God." Herein lies the fundamental difference between the modern church culture and the NT culture about Christian gatherings. In short, the modern church culture is sadly mistaken and misguided; the NT culture had it right. The modern church culture is following centuries of errant traditions; the NT church had the fresh and correct approach.
@@tomwadsworth In full agreement with you on the NT culture being correct. I, too, am a member of the church of Christ. I, too, also believe that, while it's nice to have a designated place to assemble, it's just a building. Definitely not a "house of the Lord". We don't physically prostrate and provide physical offerings/sacrifices to God. The first century church didn't do most all of the... "rituals", for lack of a better word... that so many do today. Honestly, I think what happened was the command of Paul to do all things decently and in order was taken rather far. I still have a ton to study up on though.
really enjoyed your videos! .... Actually ... all the new music is mostly Horizontal and the songs to Him and about Him are becoming less and less ... ... I feel like I can save the Horizontal songs for me, personally and or in the "house setting, but when I am with other believers (congregational type service ), I would rather spend that time singing, together, to Him. ...that is called an opinion ... lol just in case
I believe I was referring to "The Celebration Hymnal: Songs and Hymns for Worship" by Word Music/Integrity Music, 1997. Senior Editor is Tom Fettke. It has 865 pages. You might find one at Amazon or ABEBooks.com. Does that help?
So, Victoria Osteen (wife of Joel Osteen), was right all along. She said that "when you come to church, you're not doing it for God really; you're doing it for yourself." 🙂 The prosperity gospel people got that right! 🙂
My adult child and I visited a church service many years ago. Walked into the building, coffee was poured in slurp cups and donuts were also available, all carried into the sanctuary. The room was painted pitch black, strobe lights flashing. LOUD "music" was playing, people had to stand, swaying. After 15-20 minutes I had enough. I couldn't even hear myself think. I shouted at my child: "I'M LEAVING, I HATE THIS I CAN'T STAND IT! IT REMINDS ME OF WHAT THE PIT OF HELL MIGHT LOOK LIKE! And we walked so fast, it was almost a run, out of there!
In regards to worship I take my pointers from David and the Psalms. The "bible" doesn't mention every detail about how they worshiped, and I doubt that all it consisted of was prostrating. But I haven't watched the entire series yet.
My PhD dissertation has been published by ProQuest but is not widely available. I greatly appreciate your desire to read a critical review. I'm now working to secure a publishing arrangement with a publisher.
@@andreaurelius45 Wow. You really missed the point. My 50 years of research and doctoral work have simply been devoted to discovering first century Christianity. I'm not trying to make my own church; I currently attend a Methodist church. I'm just trying to learn about the church Jesus established.
I'd say that the tone of some modern music is radically feminised, some songs are almost: "Jesus is my boyfriend" which of course real men want nothing to do with.
If I may add my own understanding of worship songs, I think when it comes before the preaching of the sermon, it has this role of preparing people heart to be open to God's word. This not be biblically accurate tho. Many time the content of the sermon and the worship songs selections were connected. I am pretty sure the pastor and the worship leaders don't collaborate on it. And I feel in that sense that we need worship more than God needs it. I feel like praising God for who He is, has the power to recenter your mind in time of desperation of knowing that God reigns and that everything should be alright. The corporate worship, is an amazing time to see what it will be to sing praises to God in heaven, sing together in one voice.
Thanks for adding your thoughts. Listen to the other videos in this 7-video series. You'll find that the biblical ideas of "preaching," "sermon," "pastor," and especially "worship" are radically different than their modern uses. th-cam.com/video/z84QJzWlRJc/w-d-xo.html
I hope you read brother Wadsworth's reply as well. My reply is that actually many pastors do collaborate with the so called music worship leader to choose songs that coincide with the upcoming sermon. This method, from the sermon to the "worship leader," excludes everyone else and is so far from what God intended for the new testament church and the gathering of his people.
@doreenscott4223 This is possible. But if I may give some information about my church. My church is small church located South Korea. I am part of the worship team. But not part of the leader team. And I have led some worship sessions, and never did I talk to the pastor about which songs to sing. And I am pretty sure that our pastor entirely trusts our worship leaders to choose songs that are edifying to the church and glorifying to God. I appreciate the answer tho, thank you!
What should be our criterion? "I like it"? or "Does it honor the LORD?" Surely there must be a middle ground between "understandable" (but frankly, dumbed down)---and music that is artistically elevated and lyrically clear and penetrating, and communicating the holiness of God. Yes, God did speak to Moses clearly. But He also called upon Moses to climb a mount.
Yes there is to much emphasis on music traditional and the others, Also the over emphasis on money and giving a tithes which is not a New Testament requirement. I have read many versions in my 50 years of being a believer I still love the KJV as many new translations are corrupted.
I agree with you about the Bible translations. Most of the modern ones are paraphrases and not true translations, have many missing verses and deny the deity of Christ, and are based on the Alexandrian (corrupt) Greek manuscripts rather than Textus Receptus. My personal choice of translation is the New King James version which I have found, over many decades of study, to be the most reliable and sound of the modern versions. I will not give the NIV and its ilk houseroom. As for the King James version, there is nothing to match the majesty and grandeur of its beautiful language, many phrases of which have entered the vernacular. It is also the version that the old missionaries used to evangelise the world. It has clearly been blessed by God.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm working on a book on this topic. If you'd like to be updated on its publication, you can join the email list at tomwadsworth.com/contact.
I wrote a small book not long ago, entitled, The Church is Not the Church, using my real name of D. L. And it came to many of your conclusions. That's why I find your messages so similar to the ones I've been saying. My book is also a journey I took from my time in the churches of Christ as a member and minister to where I'm at now. And though I'm no longer in that particular church, there are certain values that have stayed with me. One is to speak where the Bible speaks and to be silent where the Bible is silent, which was voiced by one of the founders of that church in America. The other, while in that institution was uttered by an old preacher during my growing up years, "A chapter and verse for everything we believe and practice." Of course, that also includes the two heavy weights in the fight, context and the harmony of the Scriptures.
Well spoken!
One night about 25 years ago, I walked over to a Church that was only 2 blocks away. It sat off the road so you could miss it if you weren't looking in that direction. I knew nothing at all about it, but it was close so I made a point of going over their someday. It was kind of small(it's still there), but I didn't care anything about that. It said "The Church of Christ" on the front which meant nothing to me as a denomination. To me is just meant Christian. I went in and sat on the 3rd row and everyone seemed really happy and very nice and welcoming to me. The preacher began by saying, " I want to begin tonights sermon with a question for you all. The question is, "Can God Trust You?" without thinking I just said out loud of course not! WOW, the room changed from friendly to hostile FAST! That was the wrong answer! I knew that I could not even trust me, let alone God! In this church they all thought God could trust them!
Deeply appreciate your comments as I share likeness in your journey. For mine, the truth stands as truth no matter who says it in relation to the Bible and proper interpretation and context. Our traditions and biases have been among Satan's greatest tools for division which has more than not nothing to do with our salvation. What really unites us or divides us? We need grace for our ignorance and imperfections - and agree to disagree that glorifies God and not ourselves in our desire to be righteous before Him. The attitude of the apostle Paul was deep seeded in humility to know "I am the worst of sinners" which I am inclined to argue, "No, Paul, it's me!" Blessings to you.
@ and to you.
@@orangeandslinkyI’m sorry that happened to you! I’m a member of the CoC and that should never have happened. Can I ask what area you are in? Sometimes that makes a difference in how churches react to certain things.
This series is so needed for the followers today! It’s everything I’ve found in searching the scriptures myself! Music has become a hypnotic event when God says we should be sober of mind. Not an emotional high that disappears as soon as you walk out the doors.
“If you have to give a ‘carnival’ to get people to come to church,
Then you will have to keep giving ‘carnivals’ to keep them coming back.”
~ Rev Charles Spurgeon
~~~
:o
Many "worship " styles are totally demonic.
Additionally, carnivals, large screens, huge buildings cost millions that could be used to minister to orphans and widows and be sent with missionaries to spread the gospel. Tithes and offerings are the Lord’s and we would do well to be mindful of how he said to spend those funds in the Bible.
"entertaining goats instead of feeding sheep"
@@jeffstormer2547 how true!
@@standinginthegap7118 amen. Entertainment is the devil‘s substitute for joy
An outstanding analysis of the changing role of music within the church and its detrimental effects. ✔️
Thank you, Tom.
I wouldn't see the music as the problem, rather it's lack of the Holy Spirit
I am very appreciative of your series, Pastor Wadsworth.
I am a senior Christian woman living in a regional city of Tasmania, the smallest Australian state and attend an Anglican church. I do appreciate this church, as I see there is a number of ways where the leadership of the church is spread over people who bring different ministrations to the people during the service. Each week different people read the gospel, introduce each aspect of the service, deliver the sermon and play an instrument for the singing. The hymns are generally older style. hymns. During the week there are groups held for further edification of the believers. I have occasionally been to other churches and like the way this Anglican church has evolved to where it is now.
He's not a Pastor.
I'm a songwriter. I try to be. So many songs come as prayers. If you read your Word, and you are human and you love, get hurt, fail, sin, look up to God and start again, then the songs come out like psalms. It's a relationship with God. Of course, it is personal. David's psalms were personal, and he screwed up morally, yet his psalms minister to many people. David was ministering to himself when he wrote the psalms. He was sincere. I believe that some songs have certainly been blessed to be used by God over generations. That would be considered a great work to me, to be part of something God planned and ordained. As a Christian songwriter, I'd have to say that Amazing Grace may be the greatest song ever written, because the guy that wrote it was just the co-author
I would love to read your songs
This is the best presentation on church music I have ever seen. I am 60, grew up in church and approx. 30 years ago sang in a Southern Gospel trio that did 60-70 bookings per year for 25 years. I have been a member of the same church for 20 yrs and have always been asked to sing solos, that is until the last year, when our church got a new music minister who changed everything to the new worship music. Just like you said, this excluded me and many other people who always used to sing solos. At this time me and my wife have our eyes open for a church that still sings hymns and gospel songs but they are few.
You should check out Spencer Smith. He has a lot of good observations about modern worship music (so-called)
@@WatcherintheWoods I am familiar with Spencer and have watched a few of his videos.
I’m sorry for your loss. We do an intentional mix of old hymns, new hymns & spiritual songs at our church, but no solos, as we try to stay away from performances. I hope you find the right place for you.
Hardwood absolutely has a point. It’s a worldly show packaged for the masses.
Many "worship " styles are totally demonic.
I've heard the "rock star" analogy before and absolutely cringed when you brought it up here. Being subjected to "the worship team" is a major reason why I stopped going to church services. How far from Christ's instructions to the church have we fallen?! It's sad. Satan has hijacked the idea of "worship" and I think our eyes are coming open to that fact.
Many "worship " styles are totally demonic.
AMEN!!
These huge buildings, movie screens, sound equipment etc cost millions and millions of dollars that would be better placed helping orphans, widows, the elderly, homeless and on missions work to share the gospel. Tithes and offerings are the Lords and we don’t have the right to party on it when he has given us clear instructions on how these funds are to be spent in the Bible.
We had a friend who went to a mainline church but became disenchanted at the latest fund drive for a new organ. I guess the argument of allocation of offerings for the worship space versus outreach is always going to be with us.
Well said .. thank you!
It ‘s interesting that the concept of a large church and ministry to orphans, widows, missions are being presented as mutually exclusive. Throwing everyone into an either or position assumes a lot without actually knowing what these churches do. Of course, you can find your exact argument. I attend a pretty large church that the focus is totally about missions in all the examples you presented.
So much waist
Agreed…. how the money should be spent is in Leviticus and the activities of the early church in the book of Acts
"Worship is not for our enjoyment, but for God's enjoyment" - Donald Hustad.
-> Ps 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Thanks for digging into the trance issue. I've been harping on that one for years. Of course they always try to refute me by bringing up Peter's trance in Acts.
You are spot on.
Semblance of unity! Preach!
When we evaluate songs before bringing them into our music repertoire, we name whether they are: proclamation, petition, praise, exhortation or call or action. We also evaluate the theological, lyrical & musical considerations.
Some are more horizontal & some are more vertical. We can do both!!
Feelings and Emotions overpower the purpose of building up and teaching which lines up with The Truths of Scripture.
That's why they do it! They want you to feel, not to think
Not true
If you think, you will realize all the lies they are telling you. Of course they don't want you to think. This is why Republicans were taken over by evangelicals- they got their members to stop thinking! Don't believe what you see and what you hear - only believe what I tell you
@@brotito9126 There are lawyers and physicians in every church, spiritually speaking. The key is balance between the two with love and respect to maturity and growth - open to the Spirit that leads. When the flesh leads, Satan is near.
The biggest problem since the mid 90's is that the worship team are drowning out the congregation. They are standing up there like a pop group. And the Church are trying to sing along to sings that have been written for Christian pop artists. Sings not meant for the congregation as they are not easy to remember or sing along to.
Our leaders are very conscious of that. We have a singing congregation & it’s important we can all hear each other.
I’ve been involved in music ministry over the years, usually dragging into it by my stage-manager mother when I was younger. She was difficult enough, but at least she wasn’t constantly attacking me like some of the girls I met in that role. Talented people would enjoy the adoration with some measure of grace towards the others, but people who weren’t actually that good would viscously attack anyone they saw as competition. It’s the most toxic group in churches.
I've been told that the competition for "stage time" with the "worship team" can be brutal.
You shouldn't make money from ministry to begin with
@@AlphaStudios-lh1rz nobody made money, what are you talking about?
@@LouisaWatt you didn’t, but many professing ministers did
I was in the midst of music ministry for years, decades. Different styles, Different groups, different churches. Much of it was very good, but I can clearly see how having these very biblical guidelines would have saved a world of time, treasure, talent & trouble!
That said, I have also seen how groups of people who love music and love God can create the sort of “one anothering” group that is so integral to a healthy church. Sometimes I listen to uncut cassette tapes of rehearsals, and I hear the everyday love and concern and fun of those days gone by (Not to mention the highs and the lows of our musicianship!😂) And I think back on how we developed those relationships throughout the week, it wasn’t just about the job we had on Sunday morning.
The older are commanded to teach the younger- that won't happen when leaders wrongly divide the body into differing groups with different tastes. The younger are ruling most churches these days which explains a lot of our troubles. They simply aren't qualified to lead as the Bible requires.
In Iowa and Minnesota we had worship wars in Lutheran and other churches in the '60s and '70s! It started with the Jesus Movement music in southern California (folk-rock and rock) and the 'Scripture in Song' movement from New Zealand.
AKA hippies. 1 Corinthians 11:14
Repetition in music becomes a mantra found in the Hindu religion. To empty the mind to open up to other spiritd
I agree with this 100%. Pastors are pretty unnecessary when you are going week after week hearing the same message.
No one in the NT had the title Pastor. Jesus commanded against such titles among the brethren. Matthew 23: 8-12
@1Whipperin the word 'pastor' refers to the activity of 'shepherding' done by the qualified elders of the church and is found a several times in the New Testament both as a noun (Shepherd) and as a verb (shepherds or shepherding).
@jltc5478 Yes. shepherd is a function, not a title. The function teacher is found in the NT, but no one had the title, Teacher. Jesus commanded against such titles among the brethren. Matthew 23 8-12
Today its crazy that musicians and teachers get so wore out 3 services in a row while people are lonely and transient
Great point. It's because we're doing it all wrong. Let's move back towards home based gatherings.
@doreens, I have been saying that since Covid started. We are the church, not the building.
I once made a statement about worship and you'd think i had blasphemed God from all the flack i received. My statement was "Our worship is TO God, but it's FOR us." Meaning that our worship does nothing to change God, but everything to change us. God doesn't "need" our worship to elevate him he is already above all. He is also the "source" of life and it does us good to plug into the source from time to time in order to be rejuvinated. (Ya know, like the energizer bunny. Go ahead, flog me now, I can take it.)
Yep. Acts 17:24-25. Flog me, too.
I AGREE WITH YOU. Wholeheartedly. I find that it’s mostly Europeans that have a huge problem with the singing with emotions… meanwhile HEAVEN will be filled with people from all nations shouting dancing and singing and I’m sure there will be moments of stillness and meditation. God created ALL people who will respond to the gospel and sing it to a groove and dance and have.. dare I say FUN.. celebrating ( another cuss word to these cessationist .. mostly white circles) CELEBRATION 🤸🏽♂️🤸🏽♂️🤸🏽♂️. That means move and rejoice. It is finished!
To my white sisters and brothers who enjoy a grooving time celebrating the King.. that wasn’t for you..
And all of my other sisters and brothers.. Asian Latino… etc etc… let’s have fun!
I'm glad you included the "Mystical Trance". There's more to it than you even say, esp in some churches. I've heard a worship leader talk about using repetition and certain chords to achieve an impressionable mindset in the audience. This primed the audience to accept the "miraculous" events on stage. This is from a church very well known for the music it produces.
If you look at revelations you’ll see a lot of repetition. Holy, holy, holy. Etc. God seems to like it. Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
Now I understand why many churches only sing Psalms.
I love contemporary worship music. It helps me connect to God and it's good music too. I find it ironic that he says modern worship music is not 'horizontal' enough, as I've heard other older Christians make the opposite complaint.
Contemporary songs were all the rage in the early Methodist Societies founded by John Wesley. Charles Wesley composed hundreds of new hymns that were much better than what the Anglican hymnody of the time … And yes, young people were interested and enthusiastic about the new. That was in the 1700s.
Nothing wrong with that but it's not worship.
Actually, many of the tunes to which Charles Wesley set his lyrics were popular drinking songs: my brother got a minor in Church music, and often sung both versions to prove this point. At the time I thought it rather clever, but given how we know how memes work in this day and, I just now realized how deliciously subversive a move it was looking back on it.
Your quote from 1 Corinthians 14:9 says to me that the hymns must be intelligible, not the archaic language that some prefer which I find unintelligible or just awkward to sing. I like modern songs, but there is no need for more than 2 at any church meeting.
Thank you eo much or these teachings.
Not ALL about God but not ALL about us. It's about God in the middle and us connecting together IN Him
I saw a poor elderly person quietly trembling as they removed their hearing aid during worship due to the volume..they never complain though
I am one of the older women now and fortunately the Anglican church I attend in a regional city in the smallest Australian state of Tasmania has over the years spread out the way that each part of the service is delivered by different people each week and the music is generally older hymns. At present because of my age I am watching online.
I've seen women put special headphones on their kids.
One of our deacons, who understands hearing damage, spends a fair amount of time, trying to mitigate that problem, but has so far not been successful.
One of our deacons, who understands hearing damage, spends a fair amount of time, trying to mitigate that problem, but has so far not been successful.
I've been a worship leader or on the teams in several places. I totally agree with the over emphasis on the sensual in todays church music. It's always a pattern, start off slow, then work up to a drumming frenzy, singing certain lines a thousand times. Appealing to the senses and feeling good. I also agree that the 60s had the best music, and Gods favorite music is rock. 😂
I agree with you. I have also been a worship leader for various groups in the past. I never started off slow and worked up to a frenzy! I always followed the Tabernacle pattern, "enter His gates with thanksgiving, and into His courts with praise" and only then would we be in a proper place to "hishtachavah" before His throne in the Holy of Holies. This very often meant starting fast and joyful and ending very quiet and reverential, concluding with total silence. To prepare beforehand I would sit with my music books before the Lord and ask Him to direct my choice, and we would put them in order. I would play a transitional passage on the guitar between each one to accommodate any change of key, and the whole session would flow seamlessly. I always considered it a huge privilege to be able to do this. Later in the meetings I would often sing a solo (also pre-chosen by the Lord) and would never accept applause - I never wanted any focus to be on me, but only that I should be used as a channel by the Lord to bring people to His throne. For me, leading worship was never a performance but always a corporate act, with myself as an equal participant.
@@ShoshiPlatypussimilar for me
Psalms, hymns, & spiritual songs? Where do you think they LEARNED THEM?
When polls show that the majority of people under forty are abandoning the church, obviously, getting the contemporary music they like isn’t enough. The church can conduct a weekly, Sunday morning Christian Rock concert and it’s not feeding their souls. The younger generation is voting with their feet alright; they aren’t opting for a contemporary worship experience, they are simply opting out.
At large church they have a waiting list of over 100 people that want to perform, but will only if it’s on the main stage at main services. Refuse to play at smaller stages of church or small meetings.
And that should tell you everything you need to know about whether they are fit for service in the church music program at this time: This is not the model of the servant who will wash his brothers feet.
One example of the difference between the KJV and NIV can be seen in Ephesians 5:19. "Speaking to "yourselves" in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" I believe this line is about personal improvement. Each individual is to become a new man. The whole epistle seems to be directed at each individual member within the church.
Celebration Hymnal: Songs and Hymns for Worship was published by Word Music/Integrity Music on January 1, 1997.
You talk about the shift of contemporary music as exclusionary … It certainly works both ways: The traditionalists often say to the younger generation: “If you’re going to be here, you’re going to do it right (meaning, we’re going to keep things traditional.)
I have been a worship leader many times. I'm in the process of bringing together a fellowship, focused on the study of the Wored. No preacher, and no worship leader. I'll have a worship jam during the week, for the purpose o0f playing together on a regular basis, and learning each others playing habbits and styles. During our gatrherings, any can play, and if they want to lead out in a song, they can. Body ministry. My thinking is, if we jam to gether, we can flow together during the weekly ,holy convocation. Good or bad, God accepts a right heart in worship. I've seen times when God rejected the best quality music, and accepted the worst, from a right heart. Ya'all pray fer me.
Stick to the Bible. You can get together every day of course. It’s not the formal gathering. It’s fellowship.
And we must not presume anything.
I pray for us all to examine ourselves regularly, in meekness, that the Lord may have a way to speak to us, as He did through the apostle John, whom He found faithful to hear and to share, even to the 7 Churches of Revelation 2 & 3.
What if there are so many of them they cant be accommodated in a house to assemble.
Split into groups@@nelsadolit9874
@@nelsadolit9874then you divide over more than 1 house and continue to grow along. Just like family, where kids start their own families
hi Tom, you are so spot on! The trance the hands up and the music has gone so far from the truth of the gospel. We went to one church where there was 30 minutes of singing, with trances and hands up window washing etc ( it is so silly) (and i think the band thought they were rock stars) then 10 minutes of announcement then another 20 minutes of singing then the pastor did a 20 minute talk then you guessed it another 30 minutes of singing!!!! It drove me insane and i cannot go back, because i know first century Christians did not do this. What is really offensive is the band shuffling about getting their instruments ready during prayer!!! They dont even bow their heads and stop, let alone listen, it is great disrespect for God. I could go on, but you get the picture. Jesus said, God is looking for those who worship in spirit and truth, he is not looking for entertainers. No wonder the church is in decline, the world looks on and thinks Christians are fools because of the way they behave.
“Window washing” made me laugh. Exactly that.
Lifting up holy hands is perfectly fine with me. I don't want to visit a mausoleum. But I don't lift my hands to today's crap phony worship music. And to be honest, I can't stand organ music; it belongs in either a Catholic church or a vampire movie.
Totally agree. That’s why I don’t go at this time. I got tired of hour long ( non inspired) music with just repetitious words sang over and over. When I did go, I went an hour late to miss most of that and to hear the word.
seems to me there was something written about vain repetitions, right?
the disrespect, i think, is more horizontal, toward other believers. God is capable of defending Himself. it is also written that as we do unto others we do unto Him. you're right though, bottom line it's still disrespectful.
@@jeffstormer2547 I agree
Went to a
" church service" where they hand out complimentary earplugs at the door if you prefer them because the
"worship" music is so loud. No thank you, I'll pass on the whole
"worship experience" 😂
On the subject of Contemporary Christian Music I would have a different take on it. On the positive side I think that to the extent that it encourages a joyful expression of love for God, it is beneficial. On the negative side I think that it lacks theological depth and range of artistic expression. Critics have complained that it all sounds alike. And some former CCM performers themselves who have become disillusioned have pointed out that it is too commercialized -- the aim is not to glorify God but to turn a profit. Give me the great classic hymns of the past! (And the best congregational singing I have heard was done by churches that sing acappella!).
What a great comment! I couldn't agree more! My thoughts exactly.
There are worship or singing leaders with brands.
I do love having a playlist on TH-cam, and a playlist on Apple, from different eras and different genres, with Music that lets me speak my heart… as I drive! Or do house work! I’ve been up front at church, and I often still am in our small-group that meets on Sunday morning within the big church, but I have always liked it best when I was just one of a large group, Especially when singing with awesome harmony! But I do find it very awkward when we repeat things too much, even though we have some horizontal songs that make it fun to connect with other people in the room. If the room has a more circular orientation, people don’t have to be a music “leader/performer” in order to make these horizontal connections with others!
@@bitrudder3792 Today I attended a Sacred Harp convention, which is quite an experience. It's an all-day hymn sing, but using historic old early American shaped note hymns. The singers sit in a "hollow square" formation, different ones take turns leading the songs, and it is all done in four part acapella harmony.
@@robertwheeler1158 - this is the first time I’ve heard of sacred harp, And I just went over to listen to a sampling of it. Thank you for sharing!
Hymns were modern music at one point in time and some were very much dislike or thought to be too exciting.
We only think they are normal because if many years. One day the music from 1980s/1990s and today will be consider out-of-date. Read "101 Hymns" by Kenneth Osbeck.
I agree that modern music can allow for more participation although that is usually through large institutional churches. It's not realistic to think this would be possible in a small group or assembly. Furthermore, there are many temptations associated with such groups like the false notion of a worship leader position, creating ones own brand name, wanting to be financially compensated (even through worldly means) and the content of one's musical lyrics. As one person has said somewhere, "Musicians should be held to the same standard as teachers or pastors are." I agree as what they do is also a form of prophesy and therefore needs to be judged.
I use to belong to a charismatic/arminian “church “ where it was structured like that. They had an 8:30 AM “quiet “service and an 11:30 Celebration/Worship Service which was wild when compared to the early morning service.
This is almost exactly the same time the Catholic charactersmatic renewal started.
According to theologians Peter Hocken, Tony Richie and Christopher Stephenson, the Catholic charismatic renewal is intrinsically ecumenical and has given rise to covenant communities with members from major Christian denominations who lead a "shared life based on baptism in the Holy Spirit".
Calvary chapel is a charismatic church which started the modern ecumenical music that we hear today in churches.
I don’t believe CCLI manages hymns since they are not under copyright, so of course the top songs are modern. We include 25-50% hymns in our sets. And we sing a lot of new hymns, like “In Christ Alone.” There is a swing back to writing songs of depth.
Psalms 96:1
1 O sing unto the LORD a new song: sing unto the LORD, all the earth.
I attended a service that featured a loud band ( “worship team”🙄) , and the pastor stopped the music to direct people to raise their hands . Didn’t comply . It was so manipulative.
Sounds like my former church. They make it all about themselves while singing “It’s all about you Jesus”. The lack of self awareness is frightening.
Wow, that’s just cringe.
@@frogking-v4k the pastor is very nice - and he doesn’t deviate from scripture. He is very into music ( he and his wife are musicians) , and he sees music as an imperative to worship, likely because it’s such a “happy place” for him personally.
We all have our flat spots , so I don’t want to be the church grinch who plants a flag and dies on a weird hill.
I would've raised my finger; maybe even both of them. What I hate worse than that is when they try to make you repeat things after them like good little propagandized puppets.
@@Caleb-xf5yn yeah . I spoke with him after the service - told him that it forces people to perform and engage in a process of providing feedback for the musicians and has nothing to do with worship. People who cooperated/obeyed looked like they were being held up by a robber , not worshipping. It was odd and very unhealthy . He politely listened- his wife seemed ti get it.
The Modern " Worship " songs of today, are not even in the same Universe as the the wonderful Hymns! And im talking from nearly 50 years of personal experience and study as well. Most of today's " Christian" musuc is biblically an d theologically inept,it is weak, shallow, repetitive, worldly and easily forgotten. The Hymns are powerful, Majestic, deeply spiritual, anointed of the Spirit, biblically sound,timeless, and have remained fresh and meaningful for decades and even Centuries! Comparing thd Hymns to today's contemporary contemporary " Christian " music is like Comparing fine Gold with cheap tin- foil!
Many "worship " styles are totally demonic.
Everything that is old now was once new. There will be timeless songs coming out of this era, just as there have been timeless songs coming out of others. And sometimes the older hymns weren’t able to connect with me easily until the stilted melody was updated to something singable. Beautiful words deserve to be made more accessible.
Look at the lyrics people! Can you really not find the truth of the songs? Look at the song of Moses on Deuteronomy 32 or Exodus 15 or the Psalms, they don't seem like songs and NO One even the hymn lovers would sing those. It is my heart that those who love hymns (I'm one) will also grow to look at the songs and not idolize hymns
@@kai85kai yes,we've looked at the lyrics, and they are cheap, shallow,and powerless.
There are several new hymn writers now…the Getty’s, Matt Papa/Matt Boswell, Stuart Townsend & Sovereign Grace. It’s very exciting!
Perhaps, we can just say that our church buildings are the equivalent of these house church gathering venues during the New Testament times because the gospel has so widely spread converting or winning souls speedily in the course of time, whereby, some gatherings increased by hundreds of thousands. Therefore, houses are no longer fit for these gatherings. But come to think of it, these big gatherings of thousands of people started really at some point in the garage, receiving rooms, at houses, some at malls. Eventually the people themselves decided to build buildings to accommodate their growing numbers. There are systems wherein these large numbers where subdivided into cell groups or groups of 12 and the likes. These big churches would even increase having daughter churches all over everywhere. The real problem is we began as one universal body to be divided into denominations, doctrines, and other factors. But in small villages, these biblical concept of small house gatherings are still going on everyday. And as soon as the number grows from 50 to 100, they will decide to find a larger place, then build a building with a name to identify their fellowship. Then the mode of fellowship changes from intimate to legalistic, ceremonial rituals and programs. 🌹
Good comment. I'm with you.
Of course it would be logical for the early believers to meet in homes. Where else would they meet? Jewish followers of course would have been used to going to the temple but that would no longer be available to them. Gentiles also went to the temple to perform their religious duties, but now that they are Christ followers that wouldn't be an option so it seems logical and even convenient to meet in one another's homes. Also persecution became an issue so Christians needed to stay on the "down low" as they say. All very logical and appropriate reasons to be meeting in Believers homes. Those were the circumstances and the culture in which they lived. Our time and culture as believers has greatly changed and expanded the available options in how to assembling together and function as a church. Personally, I believe the first century model is a good one but I think we also need to be aware of the surrounding influences that resulted in early believers meeting in homes and that of course the Lord didn't say, " Thou shall henceforth assemble only in homes now and ye shall call it "Home Church " 😄 but theyre were more factors involved.
@@mrwiggiewoowell-said
Important Teaching!
Please stop allowing all the TH-cam commercials every 5 minutes.
It distracts from the teaching.
Sorry. Alas, TH-cam owns the service.
@
Ok~Thanks.
I was aware that you could choose to commercialize your site or not.
I do know brothers in Christ
who chose not to monetize their youtube channels.
It's encouraging to know there are a very few in the Body of Christ
who do not use the Glorious Name and Truth of Christ as a Marketing product.
They follow Freely received, Freely give.
Blessings!
Its interesting to see how ingrained nonscriptual things are in the church.Things like communion. Jesus did NOT say "Hey, once a week, maybe once a month or once a quarter do this in worship of me. He said EVERY time you do this, do it in rememberence of me. Why did he say this? Wnat was his message? He is the bread of life. If you dont eat for 3 months guess what - you die. Making a ritual out of this was so.wrong. i know, the Catholics blew it with whole we are cannibals routine, but for me and my family - every meal is that reminder.
AMEN!!!!
Interesting thought. I’ve been thinking a lot about communion recently
As a younger person, I do see the point about horizontal music, I loved the 90's but I still disagree. The problem with today's supposed worship music is that much of it really is "me" centered and not Christ centered! Hymns and new hymns and Christ focused songs remind us of truth causing our focus to be on Him first and then to one another. As we are filled up with the truth by the Lord and His Word., we then can love one another. I do agree that churches use songs, lights and antics to draw up emotional decisionalism and a temporary high instead of focusing on building the body with the Scripture and worship of the Lord at a steady pace. Ps. I did not grow up with any hymns, by the way. I left the shallow teaching and services to search the Word and learn to live in the Truth everyday, not just during some heightened worship experience on Sunday.
a) we are not exhorted to sing perfectly but to make a joyful noise, yes?
b) there is utility in the older forms that are predictable. it allows the singer to focus on the lyrics AND allows for writing new lyrics set to familiar tunes. its much more challenging to sing together with a truly new song like what is common nowadays. there's definitely a place for it though! just pointing out that there's also a place for the "'tried and true".
Amen brother Jeff
Keep silent, but prayer in the spirit yourself to God the scripture says.
Thank You
I was in a choir in the same charismatic church I mentioned earlier and we spent at least 6-9 hours a week before we sang a song at church. 😢
@brotito9126 - Why the sad face, over practicing 6 to 9 hours on a song before sharing it in church? Our group took the attitude, way back then, that we didn’t want to be distracted by doing the mechanics of notes, tempo, etc., correctly so that we couldn’t appreciate the words as we sang and played. And we didn’t want the people listening to be wincing at our mistakes, instead of listening to the words. (PS, we simply started practicing songs, many weeks in advance. If it was a difficult one that we loved, a little bit at a time. It didn’t feel like an onerous burden.
I felt the same during my Mth studies..
In the Plymouth Brethren, we have always called our gathering "the assembly". We call the weekly remembrance meeting or Lord's supper our "worship" meeting because He is the focus of that session. "Do this for a calling of Me to mind." Also, the music is sung a cappella and is always about Christ. Never is it about us. Attention cannot be draw to any one individual. Everything else we do is for the edification of the body of Christ: prayer meetings, Bible readings, elder teaching sessions.
I dont think acapella is commanded, but I too would rather do such than the modern "worship" music
@@AlphaStudios-lh1rz - The beauty of a cappella music is that it’s portable and available anywhere you go.
@@bitrudder3792 Yes, good point.
Haven’t attended church in a decade. When I was going to church as a late teen my parents criticized me for taking notes about the pastors sermon. Specifically I was noting everything that Chuck Swindoll said that I wasn’t sure about and needed to verify later with scripture. Apparently it was bad to not take the pastor at his word for everything. Most churches I’ve attended were a joke, big or small.
Wow
Yes, wow..
Our church bulletin has a section for note taking, it keeps my mind on the sermon.
The apostle Paul would’ve definitely approved of your decision to take notes and test things out. I have been fortunate to be in a church that encourages that attitude for the last quarter century and even when I challenge them on points where I feel like they are bowing to the traditions of man instead of what the scripture says, they are very gracious to me, as I try to be to them. As it should be.
Church isn’t the building, and we art admonished not to avoid gathering with other believers. So I hope you’re finding believers to connect with in person on a regular basis. Wherever two or three are gathered… That means you only have to find one other believer to hang out with to have church!
I especially loved having “Church” in person with anyone who would let me do so during the P Demic, without the useless face diaper (research does NOT support using that).😊 I consider every day a good day to have “Church.”
So many popular contemporary songs seem to have a point.
In Canada music ears were going on in the 70’s.
This feels so sad and more of an attack and this is very different than the previous lessons likely because it is personal opinion and no bible.
"Mystical trance" "pump up" the bible literally says David dances until he didn't look dignified. What about terms Barak or prostrate, we are allowed and even commanded to shout. You should have emotions. You have emotions EVERWHERE in life but not in church or towards God. Really? If your relationship with Him doesn't invoke more emotion than your local HS football team. This is a problem.
You had to practice hymns.
I agree. There should be a balance & good doctrine taught in our songs, but if we are engaged fully, our emotions & our body are involved. If we use our hands when we speak, then why not use them when we’re speaking to God.
I agree with your message. You did not cover that the seven eleven approache (repetition of words) can create the trance state. Also look at new age occult influences too.
Absolutely!
Modern Christian music is appealing to the soul creating a certain mood instead of wanting to increase in the holy spirit and maturity equipping Christians for a Christ pleasing life. Modern Christian music is often so loud that it reminds me of a rock concert and can make us deaf or hard of hearing ( the loudness hurts many people, it is also known that it can induce seizures , in China Christians are tortured with horrible noises that can drive them insane) long term Christians might all have to learn the deaf language when the high number of decibels have killed their precious hearing. All for the sake of: " The young like it, we want to keep them in church." TKS Dr. Wadsworth, great analysis!
Modern church services are designed to do one thing and one thing only - to manipulate you. It's so passive aggressive. Let's stand, let's sit. Let's sing songs and get all emotional so that when the preacher tells you he needs $65 million for a new jet you ont even stop to ask what he is doing with the other three. They don't want you to think, because if you do, you might ask questions that they don't have answers to. If you do, and you do it often enough, you will be asked to leave because the only possible reason for your question is you are a demon
Gospel music became trash when Keith Green died. No one would crucify their flesh anymore
@@AlphaStudios-lh1rz- I love Keith’s honest and raw approach to music and ministry.
From Jesus People.
I’m not comfortable with trance states in church, either. That said, I don’t condemn it because it’s actually in the Bible. Peter was in a trance when he received the vision that led him to accept Gentiles. John was probably in a trance when he received the revelation. And there are several interesting instances in the Old Testament, such as king Saul prophesying. So, again, I don’t know what to do with that, but there it is as a normal mode of prayer to the true God.
The needy God thing, I don’t get that at all. There are so many Psalms that command us to sing praises to God. It seems more like something we need to do, not something that he needs from us.
Also, about modern music being a fad, maybe hymns are a fad too? Who is to say that 1800-1920 was the golden age of church music? Why don’t we sing songs from the 500’s or 900’s? Actually there are a few very ancient melodies in an average hymnal, but they don’t get used a lot.
Thank you for sharing your work, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying.
While I'm in full agreement that singing is for the edification, and maybe I'm jumping the gun here and you clarify this later on, we should understand something. God didn't need incense either. He didn't need Cain's offering. God didn't need Noah to build the ark. But there were still commands. We realize from reading the Bible that Cain's offering was not accepted. We read that Nadab and Abihu's incense was considered profane fire and God killed them saying in Letiticus 10:3 "‘By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified." And I think we all know that if Noah had not built the ark as God told him to, he would not have been saved from the flood. It's not about what God needed, it's about what God commanded. What He wants from us isn't be cause He has to have it but because there's a reason for it. And also, what He doesn't want can cause problems. If God did not tell us to do certain things for Him, or if we decide to do something different than how He told us to do it, we shoudln't do it or do it that way. Again, I agree that what we do is for the edification of the saints, we should not forget that Paul also said that whatever we do, do all for the glory of God. "Glory" in the verses that talk about "for the glory of God" is translated fro the transliterated word "doxa" which is also translated as "dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship." and "worship" in the NKJV Luke 14:10 and Revelation 14:7. I believe that edifying one another with love in spirit and in truth gives honor and glory to God. it is a form of praise. This is how it translates to spiritual 'worship". Jesus linked the two together as well. Sahying that the greatest commandmend is to love God and that loving people is like the first. If we love God, we will love people and when we love people, we are loving God. This is how it works when assembling as well.
Here's a key contention of my presentation: The Bible does not view the assembly as falling under the classification of "worship." My 300-page doctoral dissertation investigates this concept in great detail. It's striking that "worship" language is not applied to the assembly, either in the NT or for the first 200 years of post-NT Christianity. Our tendency to view our assemblies as "worship" and "offerings" is based on a flawed idea that was inherited from hundreds of years of tradition, which basically came from Catholic and Orthodox teachings from the fourth century. See the evidence provided in video #6: th-cam.com/video/4CfNZbjK6Sg/w-d-xo.html.
@@tomwadsworth I agree with you that the assembly itself is not worship. believe me, you have been saying things in these videos that I've been thinking for a while now. And it's much appreciated and a relief to hear someone else say what I've been thinking as it pertains to how the assembly was "conducted", if you will. The way you've done this study on "worship" is almost identical to how I did a study a lil while back on the word "religion". I actually am rather impressed at the depth and efforts you've put into this study. I've learned a lot. So then help me understand something. IN John 4:24, where Jesus said to the woman at the well, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." And, as you already pointed out, it's using the Greek word pertaining to prostration. So, how exactly would one prostrate oneself in spirit and in truth. I get what you're saying about how many religious people have worship wrong but perhaps, if I may, it is not that the word "worship" is wrong but that worship, both word and action, is misunderstood. As spiritual "worship" in this instance would be we spiritually prostrate ourselves to God by our offerings of praise. Offerings of honor and glory. Remember Romans 12:1. (NKJV) "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." "Service" is translated from one of the Greek words you illustrated "λατρείαν" transliterated "latreia". I believe that this would pertain to both in the assembly and in life, just like the book of Ephesians was/is.
I guess what I'm eluding to is if Jesus said to prostrate ourselves in spirit and in truth, as He related this to temple worship, then would it not be considered spiritual prostration(biblical worship) to present our own bodies to the service(biblical worship) of God? Just as when Paul told Timothy saying men should lift up holy hands, when studied means holy works which translates from the OT of the physical works in the sanctuary to the spiritual works in the NT temple AKA body AKA the assembly. Am I making sense here?
You asked, "So, how exactly would one prostrate oneself in spirit and in truth?" Every time the word proskuneo (wrongly translated as "worship") is used in a temple context in the NT and LXX, it means "to prostrate oneself" before the deity. So, when Jesus refers to prostrating in spirit and truth, he is telling Jews and Samaritans that this obligatory temple gesture (prostration) is to be done with inward sincerity ... which is the natural way to understand "in spirit and truth." In essence, Jesus is saying the same thing he said in the Sermon on the Mount about praying, fasting, and giving alms. These temple duties must be done with inward sincerity, not for an outward display of religiosity (Mt 6:1-18). As Mt 6:1 says, “Take care not to practice your righteousness in the sight of people, to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven." There is nothing in the context of John 4 that indicates that Jesus is referring to Christian gatherings.
The key noteworthy part of John 4:20-24 is the implication that the "place" (Jn 4:20) of prostration is about to become insignificant. Since "God is Spirit" (4:24) he cannot be confined within the four walls of any sacred building, whether in Jerusalem or on Mt Gerizim. I think that Jesus is making yet-another hint (see Jn 2:19) that the temple is about to be destroyed, which will radically change the entire first-century concept of "religion" (which your study likely discussed).
Additional note: These discussions inevitably get mired in confusion when we use the English term "worship." When you say "temple worship," are you referring to temple prostration (proskuneo), temple sacrificing (latreia), or priestly temple work (leitourgia)? When you say "biblical worship," the same problem and confusion exists. If you want to talk about what Christians do when they get together, it's better and clearer to talk about Christian "assemblies" or "gatherings" or "meetings." These are the words that the NT uses (e.g., ekklesia, sunago, sunerchomai) to describe such gatherings. When we use biblical language to discuss biblical topics, then our discussion is likely to stay in concert with the biblical text.
@@kellytisdale7322I want to offer my own answer to this, both to help myself understand, and to help you as well. I believe that prostrating yourself spiritually is to deny your desires, emotions, temptations, and thoughts, and to carefully weigh each against scripture, only allowing those which honor God to be put into practice. To prostrate yourself in truth has more than one meaning, I believe. Foremost, Jesus is the truth. Clearly we should worship Him. Secondly, and more closely related to spirituality, we prostrate our own ideas and beliefs to the truth and reality. We are to always subjugate our mind to only work within that which is true and not lies.
The original song book , Psalms did direct to good, but also horizontal.
All should be allowed to exercise their gifts.
Absolutely. This sermon isn't against that
Dude. Do you honestly think the likes of The old rugged cross, how great thou art, amazing grace is out of date and in this modern world of music.
@john, yes, those are the songs with meaning. I will never stop singing them.
Mr Wadsworth, great presentation! Based on the NT, what do you see as the role of women (married and/or single) in the assembly you describe? Might they be among the speakers in the current day? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Good question ... way too good. You're touching on the great Complementarian vs. Egalitarian debate, and noted scholars have landed on both sides of this issue (i.e., women CANNOT speak vs. women CAN speak in the assembly). Try googling "Complementarian and Egalitarian" and you'll see how different scholars deal with the issue.
But since you asked me, here's my take. I used to lean toward the NOT view, citing the specific admonitions in 1 Cor 14:34-35 and 1 Tim 2:10-15. But this view has problems.
In Acts 2, Peter cites Joel 2, which says, "Your sons and daughters will prophesy ... on my male and female servants I will pour out my Spirit." In Acts 21:9, Luke mentions "four prophetesses" at Caesarea in the house (probably the house church) of Philip the evangelist. In 1 Cor 11:5, Paul mentions women who were "praying or prophesying," and most likely this was done in an assembly.
Personally, I gain much from hearing a woman's point of view because men don't always have a balanced view of all the factors in a situation. It seems a shame to deprive any Christian assembly from hearing the thoughts of Christian women who have also been endowed with the Holy Spirit and a healthy amount of wisdom and understanding. In my experience, women usually have a better grasp of key Christian virtues such as compassion, empathy, dignity, kindness, patience, gentleness, etc. Regardless of whether you support Trump or Biden, I think both men exemplify the common male leadership problems of arrogance, bull-headedness, and divisive sectarianism. My point: Just as children need a mother and a father, adults need leadership and input from men and women. People suffer when forced to live without male or female input.
Here's one more issue that is rarely mentioned. Those who would allow women to speak in assembly (i.e., egalitarians) say that, when Paul disallowed women speaking, he was only enforcing a local cultural code that does not have application in cultures that freely allow women to speak. Those who would restrict females from speaking in an assembly (i.e., complementarians) usually say, "No, Paul's statements are NOT culturally based because he cites the order of creation as part of the reason why they should remain silent (1 Tim 2:13-14).
HOWEVER, Paul uses the same 'creation order argument' when he commands that women must wear a veil (1 Cor 11:3, 8, 12). These same complementarians seem to be able to easily dismiss Paul's veil requirement, claiming that it is "cultural." It seems to me that, in order to be consistent, complementarians need to either (1) force the veil on all women, or (2) admit that Paul's restrictions on women speaking are also culturally based.
In short, I think your current church's culture will have a strong practical effect on your personal approach. I think Romans 14 is helpful in how to deal with disputes. (1) Be fully convinced in your own mind (Rom 14:5) as to your own view, but (2) do not condemn or despise those who take a different point of view (Rom 14: 3, 4, 10, 13). There is MUCH more to say on this knotty topic, but I hope these brief remarks are helpful.
Thank you for your well-thought-out and gracious response. May I ask another question not to argue but to understand prescription v description, suggestion v command, and other such things? 1 Cor 14:26 speaks to what Paul emphasizes ought encompass an assembly of the saints: a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue (i.e., a language), and an interpretation of the that tongue/language. Let’s set aside tongues for the purpose of my question; that could open Pandora’s box. 😅 In your answer you carefully treaded the egalitarian/complementarian waters, which is both gracious and wise. But if “keep silent” is cultural v. 34,35, then might psalm-teaching-revelation also be cultural? That is my question. Same author, same passage. We know edification (building up) of the saints v. 26b is for all time and not limited to one culture or one time, for God himself in his breathed-out Word (2 Tim 3:16) instructs believers to edify and encourage one another, and to be of good courage (“en” - to bring about, “courage” the ability to do something that frightens one; Latin cor means heart; the opposite is timidity 2 Tim 1:7 and tear down Eph 4:29.) Edification/encouragement of the saints in an assembly is the purpose of meeting together. But back to my question. If women may speak, as you wrote, though Paul said women must be quiet, then what can I make of the description or prescription of v26? Is it a command, a suggestion, a preferred option? Your thoughts? For reference my husband is a pastor of a small home church and I support him in that. We left the institutional church in 2010 persuaded by many of the reasons you outline in your excellent seven message series.
@@LucyMoll In 1 Cor 14, Paul repeatedly hammers away at the importance of edification, i.e., building up one another (v. 3, 4a, 4b, 5, 12, 17, 26). He also hammers away at the same point by requiring speech that is similar to edifying speech (speech that exhorts and consoles, v. 3; speech that benefits others, v. 6; speech that is intelligible, v. 9, 11; speech that contains meaning, v. 11; speech that yields a productive mind, v. 14; speech that is understood, v. 16; speech that instructs others, v. 19; speech that is convicting, v. 24-25; speech that enables others to weigh what is said, v. 29; speech that enables others to learn and be exhorted, v. 31). Paul’s constant message is: Whatever you do, be sure that others are edified by it.
In 1 Cor 14, Paul mentions 14 different assembly activities: speaking (λαλέω), prophesying (προφητεύω), tongues (γλῶσσα), revelation (ἀποκάλυψις), knowledge (γνῶσις), teaching (διδαχή), praying (προσεύχομαι), singing/psalms (ψάλλω/ψαλμός), blessing (εὐλογέω), the “amen,” (ἀμήν), giving thanks (εὐχαριστία), instructing (κατηχέω), interpreting (ἑρμηνεία/διερμηνεύω), and passing judgment (διακρίνω). Paul is certainly not prescribing that all 14 activities must be included in every assembly. He is simply describing a long list of possible activities and then demanding that, whatever you do in the assembly, make sure you do it to build up others.
This corresponds well with Paul’s constant universal themes-in all his letters-of loving one another, behaving righteously, growing in knowledge, and remaining steadfast.
In short, I think you have accurately assessed the situation when you say, “edification (building up) of the saints is for all time and not limited to one culture or one time.” I think Paul would wholeheartedly agree.
Does that help?
@@tomwadsworth yes, thank you
@@tomwadsworth This is such a thoughtful and thorough reply! It's an issue I have wrestled with for many years. For years I myself (a woman) led house Bible studies. The Lord has given me a great deal of knowledge over the decades as I have studied His Word and I have been privileged to pass on this knowledge to others through a series of courses. There were men in every group I taught. However, I never initiated any group without the express knowledge and permission of the (male) pastor of the church. I have always received very positive feedback from members of the groups as my approach has been very different from that of the usual Bible study groups, taking an overview approach and following the golden thread of redemption through God's progressive revelation, His covenants, prophecy and types and shadows. For several years I studied Biblical Hebrew under a teacher who had studied under a Jewish rabbi and through him I gained many insights into the Hebraic, Biblical viewpoint, cutting through the layers of Hellenistic, pagan-based thought patterns so prevalent in the West.
Your point about head coverings is very well put. If you apply one rule, you must apply both. Interestingly, the head covering issue was definitely an important issue in those days "because of the angels" (1 Cor. 11:10), a phrase that always puzzled me until I discovered the reason through further study. It was a common belief in the ancient Near East that a woman's hair was linked with her fertility and would draw the male seed into her womb. The angels referred to were the fallen angels of Gen. 6 who were attracted to the daughters of men, and through them, begat the Nephilim. Covering one's head was a protection against further incursions by fallen angels because they would not be tempted by the beauty of a woman's hair. Obviously we know through modern science that a woman's hair has nothing to do with her fertility. Should we therefore follow Paul's ruling over this, when it no longer has any meaning? I personally do not cover my head in church.
I do tend to hold to the view that overall headship/eldership in a fellowship should be male. As a generalisation, women's gifts are not so suited to overall leadership as men's, and can lead to major problems unchecked. We have seen a dreadful result of allowing women into the Anglican ministry over the past decades - rampant feminism leading to the whole debarcle today about the Alphabet folk, none of which has any basis in Scripture. From my personal experience, my happiest times in our long marriage have been those times when my husband has taken strong but gentle leadership, allowing me to trust and relax into my God-given role as supportive helpmate. There is much peace in this. The trouble is, modern society has so emasculated men and advanced the least attractive features of rampant feminism that the characteristics of true male headship are not something that most people are aware of today (made even more difficult because of the denigrating of the "patriarchy" which is supposed to be so damaging) and many men simply have no idea how to be the sort of leaders God designed them to be. This damage has been promoted through the education system, TV entertainment and advertising. As all this has infiltrated the church, it has been made even harder for them. Satan has been very successful in his efforts to destroy the Church from within.
Thank you for this excellent video series which has confirmed so much of what I already knew, and filled in the gaps of what I did not. It is all very thought-provoking. May God bless and keep you.
I heard that it was Charles Finney who introduced contemporary music in Christianity. He was of the idea that music will attract young people to come to church, which I don't think they would accept Christ. The problem is, we ended up with false believers. There is a saying amongst Christians that Satan is after music leaders because most of them are arrogant people. But I think the truth is, they have never met Jesus, their talents gave them an audience. What destroyed horizontal music was the one who said worship is not about us but God.
Finney? Any source on that?
I’m liking this series. Looking at singing makes me wonder if we need to review the use of instruments. I don’t see from those passages that playing instruments was mentioned. You share a lot of about Josephus as a historian so I wonder if there are anything that would help us determine the assembly.
Josephus offers very little information that helps us understand first-century Christian assemblies.
Concerning instruments ... In 1 Cor 14, Paul's only extended discussion on behavior in the Christian assembly, he mentions flutes, harps, and trumpets (14:7-8). Just mentioning instruments doesn't necessarily mean anything, but Paul certainly doesn't mention them in a negative light. Throughout the chapter, Paul repeatedly points to edification as the proper purpose and goal of everything done in the assembly (v. 3, 4, 5, 12, 17, 19, 26). He mentions instruments as an example of audible communication that is only meaningful if the hearer recognizes the tune (v. 6-11). So, if someone provides audible communication of speaking in a tongue, it's only useful if others understand what is said (v. 9-11).
Talking of worship wars, some churches insist on a capella singing rather than using instrumental accompaniment, citing the NT's explicit reference to singing only. While I'd like to dispute the legalistic attitude often evident, I must admit that when it comes to intelligibility, these 'a capella congregations know their songs better than those with bands leading the worship. The latter tend to be spectators rather than participators.
That's been my experience from these David Platt church franchises. They come in take people out of local churches and leave the local ones dry. Then they feed off that community of suckers until they get enough money to open up another franchise in the next town. The people that attend them think they're really with it and spiritual.
I think every assembling should decide for themselves and not rebel against the elders
It’s nice to have some acapella, but there were certainly musical instruments used in the OT, so I have zero issue with them.
I can't believe any professing christian has no problem with selling their spiritual gifts in light of "freely give as you have freely received"
ANY Christian who asks for money for music needs to repent
It’s awkward when scripture itself says That workers are worth their pay. But I feel the same way, Having read biographies of spiritual giants, who relied completely on God for financial provision. But maybe God provides differently for different people in different situations.
I spent about three years under a paid worship pastor, although I’ve played piano in churches for over 40 years. I have to say, it was so refreshing to have things organized, planned ahead, accommodations made for those who couldn’t play as well (music written out, for instance), musical development of those who wanted to learn, being available for 99% of meetings including funerals, holidays, etc. He was worth every penny we paid him in my mind. When someone dedicates their gifts nearly full-time to a church, I believe it’s reasonable to pay them, as they need to support themselves & their family as well.
@@AlphaStudios-lh1rz. I disagree. While I don’t get paid for my ministry playing, which is not my life’s work, I don’t begrudge those who have invested tens of thousands of dollars into their education & instruments to be compensated for much of their time.
@@AZmom60 - The joke at the church I was at in my late 20s and early 30s had A paid choir Director and I suspect the person playing the piano/organ was also compensated during the traditional service. But when the contemporary service started with a group of instruments, she was of the mind that she could show up introducer song and have us do it the following Sunday. For holidays we actually practiced a little bit especially if she was doing some thing for Credit at college and we were the "volunteers." The group actually set a higher bar for itself, because only some of us were professionals (though none of us paid by the church). We selected the music to go along with the expected teaching/liturgy, Change the key, wrote parts as needed, printed what was needed in advance of when it was needed, and we were rewarded by the choir Director deciding who did or did not need a Music Stand (if you had a guitar you did, but if you were just using hand instruments you had to figure out how to make do with turning pages and using the instrument). She change the night of rehearsal even though we weren't taking up space for the regular choir, and we were completely out of sound reach, and there was three places to practice. And she virtually abandoned us so we also organized how the rehearsals should go, Scheduled our practices for different songs out for the number of weeks that we needed to not sound like screw ups. What was really pathetic is that this choir Director was creating chaos in other peoples departments as well, but was a favorite of the pastor so he wouldn't listen and people decided to stop complaining. They just withdrew politely from ministry. When it was clear that she really had to go, she was replaced by someone equally grasping - She appealed to us by making promises to us in return for support of her bid to be hired, and then reneged on everything. Our pastor had a really big blind spot apparently. The church also did not have a biblical process for handling disputes, it had some secular process adapted for the church setting and it really Created more chaos by keeping people from dealing with one another about the conflicts they had. They do say the devil works best in the choir loft, and while we didn't have a loft the main gist of that seems true.
I was honestly waiting for the pastor to just say "here's the line." Lovingly and firmly. It wasn't in him to do that.
In the end, to put an end to the conflict, the contemporary worship group did outreach to other congregations interested in introducing contemporary worship to their congregations. Our version was pretty much folk, with the occasional pop song but ALWAYS with scriptural lyrics. A number of our songs were straight scripture. We did a fair amount of Acappella stuff as well, updated hymns. Because you can get out of the hymnbook a little bit without sacrificing the mandate to do things decently and in order, and to be kind and sensitive to the people. We were out to offend every grandma and grandpa that loved their old hymns. Although paradoxically, it was the 30 somethings that were attracted to the hymns that we did, and the 60+ crowd that really enjoyed the more upbeat things that we did. Go figure. 🤷🏻♀️
Did you miss Matt 26... Gathering organised by Jesus with a hymn to close 🤔
In my experience, the same things happen in many if not most cases where people do the same things. Then, when someone attempts to interpret what was mumbled, they try to spiritualize what they’ve heard.
1 Timothy 2:8 The lifting up of hands is Biblical usually in the context of prayer. Also Psalm 141:2.
@joelfields, yes, but the lifting of hands should not be done because someone says so. Rather, it should be done because the one lifting their hands understands why they do it.
The lifting up of hands is to be done as “the receiving of something from God.” So, why do people lift up hands, palms toward God, as is done when you are yelling “Stop!” to something that is coming your way. That seems wrong….i never want to stop what God is sending to me., so shouldn’t we be holding our hands as though we are ready to catch something that is coming to us?…..arms down/palms up.
The building up was to make them more like Christ, not to puff up and make them smug & self righteous.
The church where my mother attended had a clueless worship team. The congregation was older and the worship team only played new hip songs excluding participation by the congregation. One time they did all old songs. The place roared with congregational singing. The worship team never did that again. They just played the new hip songs. To top it off nobody had any good thing to say about the worship team. The worship team seemed to run the church.
That’s crazy.
Once we went to Hawaii and visited Kawai Fellowship. Or Kawai Christian Fellowship. Some name like that. Anyway, it was youth Sunday and the old folks were prepared to endure modern songs- but these young people brought out a combination of oldies and beautifully gentle original songs to share. What a beautiful gesture!
Traditional churches often take pride in having the best organist, the best choir, the best bell choir, … etc. Image management is not new by any means.
Modern churches around like businesses, and trusted with money of shareholders. Why would they look for or accept poor/bad musicians to lead the worship? They are supposed to be “saving souls” and bringing in more potential donors to carry the load/further than ministries.
And they’re not wrong because people like things like entertainment and childcare/children’s ministries. You get more of what you pay for. I think this is a universal truth.
I think this is one of the reasons we need to go back to a model more closely resembling the original church. Every change that we make away from that creates a domino effect of consequences.
There has been plenty of "vertical" songs sang for a couple hundred years. There are plenty of songs in the old hymnals that sing directly to God giving praise to God. In fact, many of the psalms were in direct praise to God. So it's incorrect that the Bible portrays songs as being "horizontal" and "all about us".
I agree with you completely. My presentation does not say that the Bible portrays all songs as being "horizontal" and "all about us."
@@tomwadsworth Your presentation does say, however, that when people are saying "it's all about God" and you said that it IS, instead, God saying "it's all about you".
Yes, when 1 Cor 14:26 commands, "Let all things (in the assembly) be done for the building up of one another," God is essentially saying, "It's all about you." Our modern church culture often explicitly promotes the opposite, saying, "No, it's all about God." Herein lies the fundamental difference between the modern church culture and the NT culture about Christian gatherings. In short, the modern church culture is sadly mistaken and misguided; the NT culture had it right. The modern church culture is following centuries of errant traditions; the NT church had the fresh and correct approach.
@@tomwadsworth In full agreement with you on the NT culture being correct. I, too, am a member of the church of Christ. I, too, also believe that, while it's nice to have a designated place to assemble, it's just a building. Definitely not a "house of the Lord". We don't physically prostrate and provide physical offerings/sacrifices to God. The first century church didn't do most all of the... "rituals", for lack of a better word... that so many do today. Honestly, I think what happened was the command of Paul to do all things decently and in order was taken rather far. I still have a ton to study up on though.
really enjoyed your videos! .... Actually ... all the new music is mostly Horizontal and the songs to Him and about Him are becoming less and less ... ... I feel like I can save the Horizontal songs for me, personally and or in the "house setting, but when I am with other believers (congregational type service ), I would rather spend that time singing, together, to Him. ...that is called an opinion ... lol just in case
Hello sir! Can you help us get a copy of the hymnal you presented which was printed in 1997?
I believe I was referring to "The Celebration Hymnal: Songs and Hymns for Worship" by Word Music/Integrity Music, 1997. Senior Editor is Tom Fettke. It has 865 pages. You might find one at Amazon or ABEBooks.com. Does that help?
So, Victoria Osteen (wife of Joel Osteen), was right all along. She said that "when you come to church, you're not doing it for God really; you're doing it for yourself." 🙂 The prosperity gospel people got that right! 🙂
It's hard to be wrong about everything!
@@tomwadsworth😂
Even there she's wrong! It's not about yourself but about serving everyone else in the gathering.
@@Berean_with_a_BTh Great point!
Why is Dr Tom including the Roman universalist Church as part of the Christian community?
My adult child and I visited a church service many years ago. Walked into the building, coffee was poured in slurp cups and donuts were also available, all carried into the sanctuary. The room was painted pitch black, strobe lights flashing. LOUD "music" was playing, people had to stand, swaying. After 15-20 minutes I had enough. I couldn't even hear myself think. I shouted at my child: "I'M LEAVING, I HATE THIS I CAN'T STAND IT! IT REMINDS ME OF WHAT THE PIT OF HELL MIGHT LOOK LIKE! And we walked so fast, it was almost a run, out of there!
I hear you!
In regards to worship I take my pointers from David and the Psalms. The "bible" doesn't mention every detail about how they worshiped, and I doubt that all it consisted of was prostrating. But I haven't watched the entire series yet.
Where has Tom Wadsworth published? I want to read a critical review so as to better understand his argument.
My PhD dissertation has been published by ProQuest but is not widely available. I greatly appreciate your desire to read a critical review. I'm now working to secure a publishing arrangement with a publisher.
@@andreaurelius45 Wow. You really missed the point.
My 50 years of research and doctoral work have simply been devoted to discovering first century Christianity. I'm not trying to make my own church; I currently attend a Methodist church.
I'm just trying to learn about the church Jesus established.
@@tomwadsworthThank ypu. Keep up the good work.
@@tomwadsworthso you don’t have a house church brother??🤔
I would rather have almost all the people play & sing with music leaders just guiding it musically.
I'd say that the tone of some modern music is radically feminised, some songs are almost: "Jesus is my boyfriend" which of course real men want nothing to do with.
If I may add my own understanding of worship songs, I think when it comes before the preaching of the sermon, it has this role of preparing people heart to be open to God's word. This not be biblically accurate tho. Many time the content of the sermon and the worship songs selections were connected. I am pretty sure the pastor and the worship leaders don't collaborate on it. And I feel in that sense that we need worship more than God needs it. I feel like praising God for who He is, has the power to recenter your mind in time of desperation of knowing that God reigns and that everything should be alright. The corporate worship, is an amazing time to see what it will be to sing praises to God in heaven, sing together in one voice.
Thanks for adding your thoughts. Listen to the other videos in this 7-video series. You'll find that the biblical ideas of "preaching," "sermon," "pastor," and especially "worship" are radically different than their modern uses. th-cam.com/video/z84QJzWlRJc/w-d-xo.html
I hope you read brother Wadsworth's reply as well. My reply is that actually many pastors do collaborate with the so called music worship leader to choose songs that coincide with the upcoming sermon. This method, from the sermon to the "worship leader," excludes everyone else and is so far from what God intended for the new testament church and the gathering of his people.
@doreenscott4223 This is possible. But if I may give some information about my church. My church is small church located South Korea. I am part of the worship team. But not part of the leader team. And I have led some worship sessions, and never did I talk to the pastor about which songs to sing. And I am pretty sure that our pastor entirely trusts our worship leaders to choose songs that are edifying to the church and glorifying to God. I appreciate the answer tho, thank you!
At my church the pastors do collaborate with the worship leader regarding song selections.
I have a question. What is your opinion about 24 hour prayer and worship or Harp and Bowl ?
What should be our criterion? "I like it"? or "Does it honor the LORD?" Surely there must be a middle ground between "understandable" (but frankly, dumbed down)---and music that is artistically elevated and lyrically clear and penetrating, and communicating the holiness of God. Yes, God did speak to Moses clearly. But He also called upon Moses to climb a mount.
I think you missed the point of the video. Did you watch it?
Then concept is earlier songs did speak to each other but were clear was about God and he did for us.
Yes there is to much emphasis on music traditional and the others, Also the over emphasis on money and giving
a tithes which is not a New Testament requirement. I have read many versions in my 50 years of being a believer
I still love the KJV as many new translations are corrupted.
I agree with you about the Bible translations. Most of the modern ones are paraphrases and not true translations, have many missing verses and deny the deity of Christ, and are based on the Alexandrian (corrupt) Greek manuscripts rather than Textus Receptus. My personal choice of translation is the New King James version which I have found, over many decades of study, to be the most reliable and sound of the modern versions. I will not give the NIV and its ilk houseroom. As for the King James version, there is nothing to match the majesty and grandeur of its beautiful language, many phrases of which have entered the vernacular. It is also the version that the old missionaries used to evangelise the world. It has clearly been blessed by God.