When I first tried the FRFR route, I bought an Atomic CLR which I just never got along with and didn’t sit well in my band with another guitar player using a real amp and 4x12 cab. I ended up going back to an amp and cab myself and was much happier with the sound but eventually got tired of hauling them to shows. Recently I decided to go with a Fractal FM9 into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage 200 and into a smaller Mesa 2x12 cab. I couldn’t be happier! The tone and feel are still there but even cleaner and I also eliminated hauling my 100 watt head and 4x12 around. My other guitar player liked what I had so much that he ended up going a very similar direction and we both have been loving our sound and the convenience it’s brought. Thanks for the video!!
Here's a semi blasphemous statement: Sometimes I just use my HX Stomp as a pedal platform into a small tube amp when gigging in London (can't bring a large amp on the tube after all) OR sometimes if I'm using amps and cabs in my HX Stomp I use the cleanest, flattest little tube amp I have and make sure no gain is really coming from the amp. Depends on the gig. Believe me, nobody knows or is going to turn you in to the modeling police. Whatever works. Stop spending money. It won't make you better.
Played tube amps for 35years, then switched over to Fractal due to back surgery. The thing is that tube amps sound good on stage, but for most gigs they have to be miked and you will have to rely on the sound guy to reproduce your sound to the audience. There is a big chance that it won't sound exactly as you like, due to the fact that the sound guy doesn't have your ears :) There is also a lot of room for f..ups (mic placement, eq) With a modeller you give the soundguy 1 or two signals (stereo or mono) with the advice to set everything flat on the mixing board. If you did agood job creating your sounds, it will sound good with no adjustments needed and more importantly, very consistent across other venues as well. A modeller will give the sound guy exactly what he is trying to achieve,...a miked up sound. You can play with inears or let the sound guy provide you with 2 monitors for a stereo sound on stage. Basicly you can go to the gig with 1 or 2 guitars and your modeller of choice, setup in. 5 minutes. Most of us bring expensive gear to gigs to impress other guitar players that maybe in the audience. Well....those guitars players in the audience have to shut up, because you have work and they don't :) The "normal" people in the audience sure has hell don't give a rat's ass what equipement you are using. You are there to entertain!
My thoughts on this: The sound guy doesn’t have your ears, but I think he needs more trebles than you, because they disappear with the distance. At 15/20m it is not the same mix and without trebles it becomes dull. So I often use earplugs if my floor monitor has the same mix than the front speakers (I like to hear everything).
I am one of those "sound guys", and as sound technicians, our job is to equalize all the instruments and voices, and it doesn't matter how well you have configured your guitar sound, it will not sound good if the technician does not fit it into the overall mix, which in turn depends on many factors such as the environment and the acoustics of the room or the place where the concert is.
Scott Henderson handles his soundchecks by recording into a loop pedal with the band. Then he can walk around the venue, see what it sounds like at the mixer, make suggestions, etc.
@@danielhornbeck6588 The same equalization and setup of a band playing in one place does not work in another place, that is why the "sound guys" are necessary if it would not be enough to do the sound check once and copy it for the rest of the concerts on the tour, but that It doesn't work like that, you always have to adapt the template or guide that is generated for the same band, because the acoustics influence it, the P.A. system. mounted influences, etc. No matter how good your guitar sounds to someone, in order for it to fit into the mix it will have to be processed depending on many parameters that change from one gig to another.
In my experience, and I’ve been doing this for 30+ years, it all comes down to how you’re monitoring yourself. If I’m playing live in a small venue with limited monitoring I always use an amp with pedals. If using in-ears live I use a modeler and no cabinet. If studio I use whatever sounds proper for the recording but these days I can dial up a Kemper or Fractal or NI Guitar Rig faster than miking an amp. Most modern productions aren’t begging for real amps and would rather move quickly with maximum versatility. TLDR: if you’re playing live without monitoring use an amp, otherwise take advantage of digital gear.
Why don’t you use modeling live? Is it because of the monitoring situation? That’s my issue right now. I like how it sounds FOH but can’t comfortable with monitoring situation. I like IEM’s but if the the rest of the band is not using IEM’s they want something on stage to hear the guitar.
Liked your live performance a lot ! FRFR: I agree with you. I ended up with the BluGuitar Amp 1 and its NanoCab. It's a suitable solution for traveling light and still loud (60W - up to 100 with my other cab loaded with an Alnico Cream) and 4 voices: Fendery clean, Voxy crunch, JCM 800 (very realistic) and Mesa Boogish modern tones. Plus on board reverb and boost: you just bring along a minimal pedalboard and off you go ! Cheers John.
I use the Quad Cortex with a Headrush 108 . At the start i hated the Sound but now it works perfectly for me. The Gamechanger for me is using the Eq (High and Low Pass ) and a little Monitorstand to keep the Speaker a few centimeter away from the ground. I am really happy with the result.
I use since one month an everse8 as Personnal monitor for my Kemper /Helix config and I think I will buy another one because of its Quality and versatility ! And I will be able to use them in a stereo context or as FOH in small gigs. With my Bose L1 model 2 they are really complementary… and for instance when I use playbacks I like to send drums in this everse8 some meters away from me to wider the sound landscape of my playbacks… well I like this versatility… and I can use too my Fender HotRod with Celestion Alnico cream in the monitor out of the Kemper (without cab sim) when I want to feel something really more “organic” musically Philippe
First off, thank you John for doing this video! Your content is always inspiring, and honest. I've not used FRFR yet... but I have some options... I have lots of little practice amps and the pod go. I also have a Focusrite SOLO interface and Bias FX2 coming out of Presonus Studio monitors. Since I just play at home, presently I've been playing around with going Guitar>Pod Go>Positive Grid Spark>effects loop of my orange 35RT. I'm on TH-cam all the time and I'm always hearing this is best, or that is best...but honestly, it's a large experiment for me, and that is the fun of it. Nobody should be able to tell you or me or anybody what is best, I think. IMO use what you've got. Stop buying equipment to buy equipment, or just because some TH-camr tells you to do it. Get what you need and use what you've got. Learning to use what you've got takes time, and I'll bet there are already good tones to be had with the gear you already have! You just have to dial in your sound a little from what bits and pieces of what you have cobbled together over the years. TRY things. It's not going to hurt to swap it around, and just SEE what it sounds like. Don't just take everyone's word that "this is the best"... Also, don't forget that with things like an interface and Bias FX 2 / and free amp sims, you can get pretty far without having to shell out a ton of money for actual hardware. If you have a decent PC, you can get a pretty nice home rig! Try stuff. Remember, people like Eddie Van Halen and the Edge from U2 just basically experiment until they come up with something good! Play guitar and have fun experimenting with different things!
I totally agree try things especially things you wouldn't normally expect back in 2001 I was without much money but I had a cheap guitar and a couple of old 70's or 80's home stereo pioneer amplifiers with quarter-inch microphone and headphone Jack I decided from the lack of equipment and strong will to play guitar I ran one of the stereos distorted into the other and had a very decent sound that I could play with it just worked.
John, thanks so much for this video. Judging by the number of comments, this seems like something a lot of people are interested in. I hope you can explore this subject some more in future videos as there is not a lot of info out there other than product demos. I have been looking for a portable solution to listen to my HX Stomp and Quad Cortex. Currently is use a pair of Focal studio monitors - which sound great AND produce a great stereo sound - but I don't want to move them off my desk. Your suggestion to "try what you have" first is an excellent one, especially if you are on a budget. The FRFR rabbit hole looks like it could be like a particularly large and expensive one. All of this to say, I am going to try a Henriksen Bud. If I really like it, I might get a second one - as opposed to a speaker extension cab - to go for stereo. Quad Cortex Out Left to one and QC Out Right to the other. Someone should make a solid state amp with a stereo power set up and a line out to a speaker cab. That way you could set up the amps for optimal stereo effect. This would be opposed to something like a Line6 PowerCab 212 or a Mission Gemini 2 - both of which are stereo cabs with fixed speakers. Thank you, John, your content is really, really great!
Don't forget, most modelers, if not all of them, are equipped with EQ blocks. You can also add an EQ to your rig. An EQ is a way of controlling any unwanted frequencies coming through your FRFR. Personally, I like the full range of an FRFR because there are certain presets that wouldn't sound nearly as full without it.
It doesn’t give you the warm organic orgasm that only tubes provide to this day. You’ve been brainwashed to forget my child. Let me bring you back to the light. Don’t forget the light of analog, that which feels, and touches your tone with warm embrace. ❤
The key thing with the FRFR approach is that impulse responses don't simulate the sound of a speaker, they simulate the sound of a microphone in front of a speaker. Running this 'mic'd' sound through another speaker is more like listening through a wedge monitor, which is a very different experience to listening to the sound of a real guitar speaker cab in the same space.
I really wish helix had "no mic" as a selection. This is the problem I've always had trying to play in a room with other folks through a frfr. Seems like a no brainer?
@@zipporaid Completely agree! The only problem is....how would they capture the sound without using a mic? But, that begs the question: how did they come up with the speaker simulations for the Powercab+? There's gotta be a way for them to do this.
@@ryanpjolley I believe folks have made IRs in anechoic settings with reference mics, maybe a flat mic option like an earthworks type would be the easiest solution
@@zipporaid They do. And I know this because I had the same wish as you! I play out of 12" guitar combo amps, using the FX loop, and QSC10's. On both of those I don't use a cab or IR block. I just use an EQ block - which is exactly what an IR is. On a guitar amp you usually don't have to use much EQ, only tune to taste. On my QSC's I'll start with a HPF around 70/80hz and a LPF around 4500ish. And I'll usually boost around the 2k-4k range. But you can do whatever you want! I started to love digital modeling after I learned about this.
I use a Headrush 108 with my Helix and find that Global EQ in Helix is an easy and great way of fine tuning my live sound. I found that cutting the top end to around 4.1K takes that top end sharpness/hiss away and makes it more " real " sounding. The bottom end is really down to the room or band sound so I'll cut that to suit.
@@JM-eq3sx This is what I dont understand . You get two frfr and then end up trimming the frequencies to emulate a real guitar amp. So , why bother and use a guitar amp designed for the purpose. For the price of two , even cheap HR frfr's you could get a really good guitar amp . Yeah ok it is personal choice but I feel this frfr stuff is just a complete con some people are buying into.
@@druidhugger6311 Because a real guitar amp is just one amp. I do have several real guitar amps of different sizes and types. I don't want to carry them all to a gig, as if I could. As great as real amps are, I like the flexibility of a modeler for the gigs I do, which cover a wide range of musical styles. There are some guitarists who have one sound (maybe 2 or 3) all night, and some of them can make it work. I want maximum versatility. I want to feel a Marshall when I play Rocky Mountain Way, an AC30 when I play Tie Your Mother Down, a Fender Twin when I play Hotel California... They aren't "perfect" replicas but they are ideal for what I want to do. Like PA cabs, FRFR cabs are not perfectly flat. The HRs seem very bottom heavy, but they are ideal, again, for what I want. Just blew the HR 2nd tweeter in 6 months. Not happy about that though. Might just disconnect it rather than replacing it again.
I agree John. My first purchase after the Quad Cortex was the Atomic wedge FRFR. I thought it sounded ok until one day I plugged into just a powered PA top. I realized the atomic wedge was very nasally sounding to my ears and I sold it immediately. I now just use a Yamaha 10” powered pa top for live use and it sounds fine for on stage sound to me.
The reason in theory a FRFR cabinet is supposed to work is because the simulation of the amp and speakers in a modeling amp is basically a already mic’ed cab, and you are listening to the studio mixed version of the amp and speaker, so in theory the FRFR cabs should be like a good pair of studio speakers and should be fine, but! The problem is most powered FRFR wedges with the tweezers are so directional that as soon as you move 3 feet to the right or left you are no longer getting accurate sound, because studio speakers and any home speakers are meant to be listened to while sitting in the “sweet spot” in the center of both speakers. So that’s never going to work in a live situation! So we just have to remember modeling amps are tools, and they are a compromise that just makes things easier sometimes, but whenever I can use my real amp I do! I have two Friedman powered FRFR wedges that weigh around 63 pounds each! I never use more than one, but mostly none Live, I just ask the sound guy to put me in my house monitor, and I pretend I’m having fun until it’s over! lol and I just wait for a real gig when I can use my real tube amps! Life is about knowing what is best the tool for the job at hand, every gig is different! 🤟🏽😋
You caused me to finally hook up my helix to my Mesa 2:90 stereo tube power amp! Then i went out into my Marshall 1960 split stereo 4X12 cab. It sounds so incredible! For a year I only went out to a PA system and was happy enough. What got me motivated and curious was your comment about the existence of tweeters being unnatural for guitar amplification which finally got me to try this today! Thank you very much. You directly saved me well over $1,000 as I was in the FRFR market. 😊
Thanks John. I'm really enjoying using my Pod Go with Cab / IRs on into the Power Amp In of my Katana 100 MK ii. The reason this works is that I have fitted a Celestion FRLR (Full Range Live Response) Triple Cone 150w speaker (purposefully designed for guitar modellers) to the Kat. The perfect combination for me.
The FX return on any modeling amp with a good speaker should work fine. If you've got reference monitors you could EQ your amp to sound pretty close to your reference monitors. I'm going to change my home setup to A/B between reference monitors and tube amp. I agree the FRFR thing is too expensive. Tweak what you have first.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this subject. First two gigs coming up. Subconsciously this video also has prompted me to have a band style and stage craft discussion 🙂. Its easy to be a critic. Thanks again
I had a headrush FRFR for a bit that I used with Strymon Iridium- I did not find it to give me what I was looking for and sold it. I am much happier honestly with the sound of going into the FX return of my marshall. Sometimes I even like to put my amps preamp in to 4 cable with the HX stomp and essentially create my own clean channel by turning that FX loop on or off. Works particularly well with more old school amps that do not have a squeaky clean channel or have a shared gain ( Like my Marshall Juibilee).
I am now using the Boss GT-1000. Usually the stage monitor do the job. But! I like to use a Fender Vintage sidekick keyboard 70w amp for the back line as well. It has 2 inputs with volume control, bass, mid and treble eq. It has a 10 inch speaker in a closed, ported cabinet with very good bass response with no tweeter! Small, light weight and cheap!! The reason I really like it, is I put it on an amp stand and you can easily tweek the eq and volume, they are right there on the front. No pesky tweeter yet still has pretty flat eq. Not so loud but the whole idea is to keep the stage volume down right? So it's great when you want to move to the back of the stage away from the sweet spot of the floor monitors and still hear yourself play.
FRFR (in something like Powercab) is most useful if you need the flexibility of different speaker tones. But its really necessary if you need to include acoustic guitar tones in your guitar mix. No question that a modeler into the effect return of a tube amp into a good guitar speaker will sound better. But it won't be very flexible.
Agreed - though Jonathon makes good points regarding straight electric tones. For a number of years the project I was working with needed a variety of stringed sounds, for me the Helix and Variax were the solution. From electrics to acoustic 6 and 12 strings, dobro, banjo - I even pumped percussion and keys through the system. Simply wouldn't sound right through a frequency-limited cab.
To answer the "why not just bring a real amp?" question, the modeler gives you a spectrum of choices. While they aren't the "real" Deluxe Reverb or Boogie Mark IV, the approximation a modeler creates gives you both in a single cabinet. For an original band, I would go with the tube amp (or amps) suited to the music. I'm looking at the Red Sound ELIS 8 and MF10. Nobody has done a side by side comparison yet, and they're way too expensive to experiment with both. A pair of the 8's looks very appealing. But your video makes a lot of sense. I listen to some old recordings, many generations of gear in the past, and think, "Damn, I had a really good sound, should have just stuck with that." But it never seems quite enough in the moment and in the midst of a live performance. The Henriksen did sound pretty dark in your video by the way. I thought it was where the camera was positioned. It worked well for what you were playing but it would be lost in my band. For a cover band, a modeler is far more practical, and if the audience enjoys the music, the purist standing in the corner will have to concede that it does the job very well. I'm in a tribute band and we cover the artist from Woodstock to the present. His guitars and amps, and therefore tone, have changed quite a bit over the years. I could do it with discrete pedals but the modeler makes it much easier and lets me think about the music. Tube amps can be fickle too. I have a Boogie Nomad head in my basement. I may have to break it out and see how it works. Assuming you have a combo. What speaker(s) are in it?
You could still use a modeler for pedals and use a real amp, or use a digital preamp into a tube power amp. Similar to what they did in the late 80s with things like the Mp1 or the Triaxis.
I've gotten amazing tones running my Nux MG-30 into the power amp in on my Katana 50. I upgraded the speaker to a Celestion Neo Creamback. I turn the IRs off. The speaker is very versatile with different amp models. Still a cheap solution when I want an amp. At church I go straight to PA.
Similar - I use a joyo american sound pedal into the power in on my Kat 50, sounds brilliant. Oddly the AS pedal seems to take OD pedals better than the kat pre-amp, much smoother low-gain sound. Kat as a powered cab, given the price of 50 mk2's now is an absolute bargain if you don't need FRFR.
Great tone dude! I was watching without looking and was surprised to see you using a Tele, all goes to show it's about the touch, feel and amp tone vs the guitar itself
For years we have simply run our Line 6 units direct into PAs.. live or practice. Actually the only amp in our band is used by the keyboard player for his Hammond.
It seems to me that if you are home dialing in tones through your monitors and in-ears that the purpose is on the way to being defeated by introducing another amp and cabinet. Personally, once I've captured and balanced the tones and set the effects, all I want to do from there is scale up to performance volumes. The last thing I want to do is add more variables. I just use whatever PA tops like a QSC K8 or a pair if I feel like stereo. Then the house sounds more or less the same, my stage sounds more or less the same, and my in-ears sound more or less the same, as what I dialed in at my studio. Why mess with that more than you need to? If it's for eq you could just have the Global eq up and fix it from the unit. No extra cartage and fast breakdown. You may even have enough extra time to buy your girl a drink. What a concept.
@@3mstudiospalmdesert kinda defeats the purpose of FRFR as won’t be hearing “flat response” through the back of your head. It is also the worst of both worlds because the modeling benefits of low stage volume and matching FOH and stage tone are negated, and you don’t experience the thrill and nostalgia of having a cranked tube amp on stage.
@@kyran4238 , you can also place them in front if you want. Like monitors or in ear. I have an incredible amp collection, and I can tell you honestly that I don't miss them with the Quad Cortex, where I put all my amps accurately into. It's at that point now. I can't deny it. Tube amps are no longer better.
@@3mstudiospalmdesert I don’t disagree, I just don’t see a practical reason for placing it behind unless there is no FOH or it needs reinforcement from an on stage source.
"Fletcher Munson, he's got curves." Awesome. I love it! [As mentioned on another, I'm enjoying your vids! I would suggest normalizing the audio between cuts if possible. And thanks for having CC turned on!)
When I use modelers into FRFR, I found the key to improving the sounds for guitar, is to use EQ to attenuate / eliminate frequencies below 60-70 Hz and above 3-5 kHz; adjust to your rig and tastes
I just got a solid state power amp to feed my favorite cab, and to me it’s the perfect sweet spot for helix. All I was missing was a real cab in the room, not amp in the room.
Concur. Small valve amp (20w) not very heavy, a couple of pedals and I'm done. I went the whole modelling thing in the early 2000s. OK, the models are better now but it wasn't the sound that was the problem, it was the complexity. And anything that puts functions in the cloud is disposable. My POD pro stuff still works, but I don't know for how long I'll be able to continue to programme it with a computer, the software was deprecated 15 years ago. It still works (in a tiny tiny window) at the moment but I don't expect it to continue. The equipment I have that has lasted is my guitar (71 Gibson), amp (2002) and synths from the 80s. Oh, and mics, of course. Just about everything else ages out. KISS. You might annoy a sound engineer (and I used to be one before the big studios closed) but their job is to make you sound good and if they moan at having to mic an amp, they shouldn't be an engineer. By all means, use equipment that isn't too loud and setup your amp/cab so the speakers are facing your ears as much as possible, but I don't see why anyone should compromise more than that in this area. Sure, work with them, but dumping your sound into FOH and in-ears only, is probably the least rock'n'roll thing you could do. But I digress. Guitar amps, valve amps, are a mature, successful tech. Unless you're in a cover band so need to match exactly a particular sound (and I feel sorry for you), find your own sound and play that. You shouldn't need 1000 different effects presets for a gig. Sorry, I shouldn't be giving advice. That's what I do, you do you.
I’ve been using the power amp in on a boss katana for gigs recently. It works really nicely with a modeler, there’s no eq on that setup but it does sound just like the modeler is a real amp.
Are you using mono out presets into the power amp in? Any other advice? I already own a Katana so I want to try that with FM9 before buying anything else. Thanks
I’ve had great success with a Friedman ASM12. It’s made of birch with a Celestion in it, so it thumps like a real cab. If I have an opportunity, I sometimes use a Powerstage 170 and a Marshall 1960B with V30s.
@Strepite What about if your sound is fine, but far from perfect? My observation is, that people, who are to much concentrating on their sound, are typically sounding bad in the mix. In case of guitar, to loud, to much gain, to much into frequencies of other instruments, ...
@ Let me rephrase, if you play with an amp and you are happy, and then switch to other technology (modeling) and you're not happy with your monitoring, you will most likely sound worse on main PA, you will pick too hard if the monitor is too dark sounding, or sound muddy if your monitoring is sharp and you pick too softly... So much of the sound comes from YOUR playing. That's why you have amazing guitarists pick shit guitars and it sounds stunning. It's mostly in the hands and feel, so if you don't hear yourself properly, things could go wrong sound-wise...
@Strepite But that is exactly the issue! If the sound for you and for the audience is different, the guitar player will optimize the playing for what he hears, not for what the audience hears! You have to adapt to monitors, but it is worth it. If you get used to in ears, that can really give you a bonus. An Amp on Stage is the most unreliable option you can have. You only need to kick the mic once and the sound is completely different.
I was going to warn you that stacking an IR into a real cab could dampen some of your top end, and then you went right into the diatribe about being treble sensitive. Sometimes it just WORKS. :) Great video and discussion.
I'm a home player. I bought a pair of Atomic CLR powered FRFR's a few years back. While they were good, I didn't feel they were $2k-good. As an experiment, I ran through a pair of 8" Mackie studio monitors. At low-medium volumes, they did quite well. Right now, I'm running QC into a pair of Adam A77X's and I've never been happier.
I thought I was the only one who liked the tone of the modeler speaker/ir in addition to the actual amp speaker. I look at it as another EQ option, essentially using the ir as a EQ preset of sorts, shaping the tone before it hits the amp. And, as you mentioned, seems to keep my tone more consistent at a variety of volumes.
I’ve been using a Line 6 Catalyst 100w plugged into the return/power amp in. But I just recently made my own stereo rig. It started as a Trace Elliot 2x12 combo amp someone was throwing away. The amp had been ripped out and was in pieces, but the cab was good and was loaded with Celestion V30s. I cut a slot in the top of the cab to drop in an ART SL-2 single space power amp and wired the speakers in stereo. No more cab sims for me…except going direct to the mixer for FOH
I had three experiences with my GX 100 in a live Situation. One time I had to share the Stage and the other Guitarist had a Marshall Stack with Send Return . With no editing from my Studio Setting I was trying the Effects Return of the Marshall and it sounded great. The other thing is a 200W Harley Benton G212 FR Cabinet I am using in our Rehersal Room. Sounds great. A Headrush FR 108 sounded awful to me. But the best thing I experienced was a Kemper Power Kabinet . That sounds like a real Tube Amp . Perfect.
@@pascalbourhis No you can't do anything without the Kemper Profiler. I don't mind because it sounds good. To be honest, I didn't even put the Cabsim in my GX100 off.
@@sixtyaffairs Strange that sound good because your cumulate 2 cabs sim… I also have the GX-100 + the same Harley Benton. I do not use any of the GX-100 cabs sims but I use IRs that sounds terrible!
I think this is a bit of a gimmick... Guitarists come from a world where cabinets are meant to colour sound. That is what they know and are used to. So when they start using simulated cabs, they are told that if you run a simulated cab through a real cab, it will sound very, very bad. Which is true. But then they're told that the cure for this is a full range, flat response speaker. Here's one, for loads of cash! Specially made for guitar players! But the truth is that most PA speakers try to achieve a full range, flat response. Some come closer than others, but the point is that you can just get a good PA speaker and it will be good enough. Maybe add an EQ block before the output, or maybe use the global EQ if this is a speaker you use all the time, and it will be just as good.
@@CristiNeagu I’ve never played a gig where the audience was listening to my guitar amp on the stage. Most venues have stage sound and PA sound separate. If the audience is going to hear the mix that the in house engineer has made, your point isn’t valid. In such a situation IEM makes more sense. I should mention i play metal
I’m reading all the comments that go from one spectrum to the other, so no help there. I agree 💯 with you John my experience and problem with an FRFR is the tweeter, I hate that extra high sizzle and not all frfr’s have a way to turn off the tweeter. My Blacklabel EV with the Duncan power amp sounds the best out of all my speaker selections but it weighs a ton. Still looking for the best solution, but I can honestly say your videos help tremendously and I’m very appreciative. 🤘🏼✌🏼
Recently sold my Line6 PowerCab and have my Laney 212 LFR for sale. Loved the sound, but it was very directional. As soon as I stepped out of the "beam" I could no longer hear myself. Just bought a Twin Tonemaster and use Helix as FX only... its a revelation... Sound from everywhere and back to natural feedback etc. And yes having a EQ on the front of the amp helps. I also have a high cut on global EQ and usually cut aroun 5-6khz at home and at gigs down to 2.5-3khz.
I currently use a Headrush pedalboard through the effects return to 2 Marshall heads and into 2 Marshall 1960 cabs, running stereo, and yes I leave the ir on and there is no phase issues, with Headrush when you turn the ir off it sounds like a chain saw. So for me doing live shows. I either use the Marshall Heads or Solid State power amps in stereo, absolutely does the trick. I sold both FRFR made everything to digital. The Tube heads using just the power section give it warmth. I myself don’t run direct to a console. I mic both cabs. People says that defeats the purpose. It depends on the individual guitarist. If you want a warm tone and don’t mind keeping Extra gear to do it why not, if you just want to plug straight in and not use cabs if that works for you great 😊
Good video. I use one of 2 FRFRs, one being a powercab 112 and the other is a Headrush FRFR112. A few weeks ago I did an A/B test and found that the Headrush had more amp-like qualities (at least for what I want to hear) than the PC. These are just for my monitoring on stage although I tend to put them behind me as I would an amp. My sound comes from the mains in stereo. I could just bring one of my 2 tube amps and run into the return but I also carry and run sound and lights so there's no room for an amp. The FRFR sits upright seat belted in my passenger seat in my car. Again, I just use it to hear myself and not for the amp in the room sound. If I ever quit doing sound I'll probably go back to an amp. I used to have a Headrush pedalboard and it sounded excellent through the amp.
I just ordered a Headrush mx5 and am considering selling my jazz chorus 40 amp for the headrush 108, maybe two of them in stereo. I have a full pedal board as well, and I realized I don't use the JC-40 for any of the tone or color.
Seems like there are two ideal scenarios: 1) Use In-ears onstage with no FRFR to be concerned about, 2) split your signal from your guitar into a Modeler for FOH soundman and the other end going into a real guitar amp. That way you have a normal amp experience on stage while knowing the FOH and potentially recording being made will have a much better guitar sound, and no need to mic the amp. Everything in between seems problematic one way or another.
After watching this, I just tried to leave the IR active through the return of a solid state amp into a 1x12 with an Eminence speaker. After some tweeking (with lo and hi cuts) I did get a better result than without it. Some of the harshness from my 1x12 (even with normal setups) was taken away and it sounded bigger. Not perfect but fully usable. Thanks for the video and valuable advice
I plug my Zoom G3n into the power amp in of my Fender Champ 25R and it sounds really wonderful. The preamp in the combo is so noisy and it hummy. The power amp noise floor by contrast is silent. For clean stuff it really is great and 25W is good enough for stage monitoring. The G3n does a decent job emulating a range of preamps for high gain stuff. Using a cab emulation also helps as the volume goes up and the natural breakup of the power tubes sounds divine.
I had my Zoom on Krampus and ran it to my 5150 Iconic and my 4x12 celestion cab to the left and a Randall 100 watt 2x12 on the right. It was phenomenal. Had to downsize. Almost cried. Have to go with one of these.
I tried so many different rigs, amps, pedals and I’ve finished up with my Marshall DSL with a FM3 in 4CM. Nothing gives me that “amp” feel, which is hard to explain, but those who know, will know what I mean. There’s nothing else that gives me the choices of effects and amps like the FM3. I’m so pleased with the set up.
I like running my Kemper Stage in stereo to my Line 6 Powercab 212+, and then taking a mono XLR from the Powercab to the FOH. Allows me to have full “stereo” stage monitoring but pass-through a mono signal to the sound engineer. Independent volume control onstage that doesn’t affect the level sent to FOH.
I recently took my kemper stage to a rehearsal. I normally use a traditional valve amp (tone king falcon grande). And we’re LOUD. in the past I’ve run the kemper through a headrush 108 FRFR but a bad back meant this time I just went into our PA. And immediately everyone thought it was amazing because they could all clearly hear me (there were 4 different PA speakers running). There’s a mindset change from this for me: the FRFR is basically a PA speaker. It’s not an amp and it doesn’t replace one. It’s there as a monitor to let me hear myself. The band PA is there for everyone else to hear me. It’s not an amp or an amp replacement. Oh, and next time I take the valve amp, it’ll a) be attenuated and b) mic’d and then it’ll be better heard (not louder) for all!
My experience: have tried modeling/FRFR multiple times. have worked long and hard to dial in something I think I would be proud to play in public. Every time I think I am there...I plug into my amps...and...game over - the amps are just ...well, better. Warmer, fuller, more responsive. John you have it right. If that is the sound I like, why am I trying to work so hard to dial in all the variables, just to end up with an inferior experience? Sure, we haul less equipment, but we put out a lesser sound, to my ears. To be fair, I have both a Helix and a Line 6 HX Effects. I find I use the HX Effects over the Helix, as it fits on my board along side several other pedals. I use the HX Effects for the majority of the signal massaging (EQ, compression), MIDI and signal routing. I can add mono effects such as Trem and of course various drives. I also take advantage of the effects loops to add high end OD and/or distortion pedals. Then I run all of that into the front of one of my amps, taking the preamp out signal back to the pedal board where I run the signal through my stereo modulation effects. I return those outputs one each to my two Fender Deville 4x10 amps. Freaking glorius stereo heaven. For me at least.
Yours is good advice. I tried two FRFRs with my Fractal FM3 -- the Atomic NEO MKII and Xitone 12" Active Wedge . I sold them both because, as you've experienced, they just don't work well live. I've since been using a Quilter Tone Block 202 into two 12" cabs with high watt NEO speakers. The Quilter has an FRFR voicing, which together with the NEO cabs, runs quite flat. I'm able to keep both amp and cab modelling turned ON while running the FM3 into the front of the Quilter. You can run into the Quilter's FX Loop return, but that disables all of the Quilter controls except its reverb and master volume. By running it into the front, the Quilter EQ and other controls remain active and gives easy access to adjustment. In addition, the Quilter is itself an amp so you can use it as a back up to the modeller should something happen to it during a gig. You can also use the Quilter's built-in IR voicings with your modeller's effects only, by creating a preset that do not have amp or cab blocks.
I use a EHX magnum solid state into a 2 x 10 cab I swapped the cab guitar speakers for pa speakers £66 for both and plug in the modeller. Works. With MY valve amp and a 1x12 cab to get a good sound I could only use the modeller as a multi effects pedal, using the amps and cabs of the modeller sounded thin and terrible spent the night adjusting eq's I'm afraid to let go off the valve amp and cab as it really is the best sound, but the convenience of a powered FRFR set up still draws me in.
I love my headrush and 2x frfr108s… but my band hated it. I added a marshall avt50 with a 4x12 as a mono out. (using 1/4” and the 2 xlrs go to the frfr cabs on stands). It sounds glorious. One show we also mic’d the marshall thru the PA and it was even more awesome. BUT I got sick of lugging equipment. Now I just use the marshall (because my band finds frfr only unacceptable, not because it’s the better option). Personally I would just bring the Headrush and go right into the PA stereo xlr and maybe one frfr behind me to monitor things. But the reality is it’s my singer’s band and I can do the whole set with 2 sounds (clean and dirty) with a boost for leads and a wah. I do miss the huge sound I was getting with both but for practical reasons I gave up trying to convince luddite musicians who listen with their eyes that my “r2-d2” modeler is all that’s needed. In fact, the audience only really hear the PA anyway so the “amp in the room” thing is for the band… When I do my own thing you probably won’t see an amp on stage… for now I’ll enjoy the bar owner rolling his eyes as the 4x12s come in… cant say I blame them but I did try!
I’ve been using the powercab plus and bringing down the HF Trim in its settings to around -2.5 . I tried turning off the tweeter but I think this works better for me
Interesting concept, so i run a bit of an interesting rig. I run a Kemper rack and an engl pre amp with a VHT D50 handwired dumble clone, the VHT has a Pre amp bypass so it becomes a Fryette Power amp essentially, but if i want heavy heavy i have the Engl, the kemper is great for everything else depending. and then i have that running out into an old 1970s princeton that was broken from work, took the amp out and its now a 2x10 cab with a Fender blue (eminence)10 inch speaker from 1970 and a celestion 10 creamback. theres a seperate 2x4 cab depending on what i need todo. but its pretty cool playing around with all the difference tones and possiblites you can have
Our band has found that the best and more stable (no surprises) solution in terms of sound quality is to get rid of all amps and cabinets and have all instruments connecting directly to a mixer (and guitars through their modellers) , and use FRFR for stage monitors and PA front house.
I use Two Notes Le Clean tube preamp with Two Notes CAB M+ (4x12 V30) after it, pedals before and stereo pedals after it. Im a little bit torn between Fender FR-12 to use after CAB M+ VS EHX 5mm poweramp and just a regular cab with V30. I suspect the cab with real guitar speaker could use alot better even without ale the eq options avaliable on FR-12 (i have a eq pedal i ill need to shape the sound some more), also that would have no latency at all. I also have and like my Ibanez TSA15 combo but i love the fender twin sounds from Le Clean preamp.
the concept of FRFR assumes that your modeling of the power amp reactance and speaker and cabinet responses are referenced to a flat response. you could also just correct the response of the IR or just EQ it to allow for the different response of your non-FRFR speaker, ie. a regular PA speaker which is just somewhere between an FRFR and a guitar speaker. look at the speakers in a Positive Grid Spark. They have neither the response of a guitar speaker or a flat response but the response is electronically compensating for the speaker.
I use the Friedman FRFR and it solved my problem of not having my presets sound the same through FOH PA as they do at home. I don't have an on stage amp because we use in-ear monitors. When I was using my (cheap) studio monitors my preset dod not translate well.
Have a look at the first generation of Bluguitar`s Amp1 (they call it silver edition). It is a 100W amp of just around 1kg. Connecting a modeler to the return input of this amp is going to give you a high end modeler amplification. It is dead quiet and very organic. For me one of the best amplifiers for modelers. Although the amp itself is excellent, but if you prefer your modeler sounds, its power amp is outstanding.
I liked the 4CM but now I’m using a headrush 8 frfr…but I’ve never used it live…works great for the bedroom…live I’m using my old peavey 5150 60w combo…rock on bro!!!!
A lot of tweeters, particularly cheaper ones, are a bit harsh, don't have a smooth response. With a crossover point around 1.8kHz to 2.5kHz any phase problems could be messing with important frequencies for guitar. Bi-amped powered cabs will have the crossover before the power amps which can help. Having your own sound source is a good safety net if you don't know the pa you'll be using.
Love your personality, sincerity, musicality. Regarding EVM 12 inch: I had one in a Fender Deluxe for a couple years; until I played a 12" Celestion in a similar Fender Deluxe I could not get the personality, warmth, typical Guitar speaker distortion. For me the EVM was like a PA speaker… Sort of FRFR 🙂
Moral of this video is know what you want when experimenting. You'll often find you don't need a ton of gear to be content in most cases. FRFR is cool but I honestly have gotten a more rounded glassy sound to my liking out of a fender solid state. Doesn't ad gain as much as tube Amp when adding volume. Also with using the EQ pedal on the podgo I get a good enough sound to not make me spend hundreds of dollars. Go direct Amp out mic the Amp. And have one cable going to front of house with Amp and cab modeling on. You almost get a dual Amp sound to fill any gaps you might feel your missing in tone. Been my experience so far.
@@JM-eq3sx They do push some sound. I’m an old timer guitar player, but a newbie to modeling. At first I got them to use as basic sound reinforcement, but soon realized they did a great job with modelers and they became dedicated. Probably a bit more power than I would need. Their sweet spot is quite loud, but sound good a lower levels too.
I do the same with the speaker ir still engaged. I know people say not to do that but to MY ears...It sounds FANTASTIC. Im using a 44 Magnum and a 1x12 cab btw
Thank you for this video and discussing this topic. I personally 100% understand the issue with the sensitivity to high end frequencies. That drives me crazy. I bought a Fender Tonemaster FR 12, and with all that EQ possibilities, it still sounds harsh. I dont understand the buzz around it. I prefer using a Harley Benton Power Station (80€) following the Boss IR2 and run it into a Harley Benton 1x12 V30 speaker cabinet at home. Way better.
A used solid state stereo combo is the perfect fit, & some of them are dirt cheap. The cheap ones are anything inspired by a Roland JC-120, but made by Fender / Peavey / Crate etc. usually marketed as 'Chorus' amps. I use preamp pedals with stereo FX into the stereo FX returns, it's a killer budget stereo rig.
I've started running my Pod Go into my old Marshall Code, turning off all effects and amp emulators in the code, so it's just a powered speaker cabinet that was built to emulate a wide variety of speaker cabinets (and also super cheap)
Whatever sound you dial in at home or in the studio invariably won't work in a live situation and that's why one of the most useful pedals on the planet is a BOSS 7 band EQ. Its a great clean boost (as well) and allows you to sculpt your sounds to suit the venue. Each venue has different acoustics - that's why there are things called sound checks... of course smaller bands and pub / wedding events won't have this luxury - hence the BOSS is great to tweak during the gig. Playing to an empty venue in comparison to playing to it full of people affects the sound as well. It a live situation more mids are useful (to cut through the mix) - your "bedroom/studio set-up" won't reflect this as you're not playing with a full band at home... so at home less mids - during a gig more is required. That PEDAL show has a lot of useful info about EQs etc. Lastly there are some really good "amp-in-a-pedal" solutions out there, where I am sure you could plug your modeller into it to get really good tones. I am considering one of the H&K Spirit Nano amps, which I think will be a great way of generating great sounds at lowish cost for home recording as well as playing "live" - I suggest one that has a decent amount of headroom or a solid state amp that won't distort at hight volumes. I agree with John - why buy a FRFR to take to a gig when you can carry a guitar speaker cab... I suggest a 1x12 is more than good enough for 80% of the time - buy a used one.
interesting discussion - I always preferred Moeller into power amp (orange pedal baby) into guitarcab - the speakersim of the modeler only for the recording /FOH signalpath
Was running my Fractal FM3 into a Friedman ASM12 for a long time, and I loved it, but it was heavy (52 lbs), and a bit awkward to carry the rare times I did jam with other people. Most importantly, even at really low volume settings, my family still complained that it was just too loud. I now run my FM3 into a pair of Kali LP6 v2 studio monitors and am enjoying a comparable experience even at lower volumes.
I use an axeFX and solid state Carvin amp into some old 90s 2x12 randall cabs with no problems. Not saying frfr wouldn't sound better/different but I'm happy with what I'm using and haven't heard any complaints.
Absolutely true. Those are indeed the main problems one encounters when using the FRFR. The FRFR is something extraordinary, I use it all the time. However players using them on youtube sound horrible. And maybe I never would have bought it, if I had seen a video of them before. The sound is so raw. It is not made to plug and play. And that's what most do. You have to have production concepts to be able to exploit it to the fullest. That is where the designers of these speakers have gone wrong. They are not for guitarists.
I've never used any powered cab - I just run direct and use the house PA floor monitors. The 3 keys to making this work- 1) dial in your sound for live use through a real PA at volume. 2) be respectful and clear with the sound engineer on what you need to hear on stage. 3) keep your global EQ open for last-minute tweaks to fit the room. This path is relatively more risky because you're relying on the sound engineer and house PA, but frankly if I'm playing somewhere where they can't get my guitar loud and clear enough on stage, there are likely a whole host of other sound issues that should be addressed and the venue is likely unworthy of anyone's time.
I have the same three keys in mind. However, most of the house PA floor wedges I've had the... um... "privilege" of using have speakers that sound like they were broken in by dunking them in a vat of Bud Light. ;)
I did that once and it sounded so bad I thought my modeler cab simulator was off. The house sound man said the monitors were "optimized for vocals", which meant nothing but mids.
@@johnlerro997 That sucks, I definitely would have politely asked them to remove any board EQ on my guitar channel or remove the high/low shelves since you have more than just vocals in the monitors
When I first tried the FRFR route, I bought an Atomic CLR which I just never got along with and didn’t sit well in my band with another guitar player using a real amp and 4x12 cab. I ended up going back to an amp and cab myself and was much happier with the sound but eventually got tired of hauling them to shows.
Recently I decided to go with a Fractal FM9 into a Seymour Duncan Powerstage 200 and into a smaller Mesa 2x12 cab. I couldn’t be happier! The tone and feel are still there but even cleaner and I also eliminated hauling my 100 watt head and 4x12 around. My other guitar player liked what I had so much that he ended up going a very similar direction and we both have been loving our sound and the convenience it’s brought.
Thanks for the video!!
Currently looking into this!
Here's a semi blasphemous statement: Sometimes I just use my HX Stomp as a pedal platform into a small tube amp when gigging in London (can't bring a large amp on the tube after all) OR sometimes if I'm using amps and cabs in my HX Stomp I use the cleanest, flattest little tube amp I have and make sure no gain is really coming from the amp. Depends on the gig. Believe me, nobody knows or is going to turn you in to the modeling police. Whatever works. Stop spending money. It won't make you better.
This sounds interesting to me. So how do you use it as a pedal platform with a tube amp? Do you use the stomp as a head?
@@kalli199 I just use it like a pedal board. Compressor, drives, modulation, delay, reverb...etc.
It actually makes sense. 🙂
Why bother with a tube amp, wouldn’t solid state be lighter for lugging around?
@@TheRflynn Sure, if you have one handy.
Played tube amps for 35years, then switched over to Fractal due to back surgery. The thing is that tube amps sound good on stage, but for most gigs they have to be miked and you will have to rely on the sound guy to reproduce your sound to the audience. There is a big chance that it won't sound exactly as you like, due to the fact that the sound guy doesn't have your ears :) There is also a lot of room for f..ups (mic placement, eq) With a modeller you give the soundguy 1 or two signals (stereo or mono) with the advice to set everything flat on the mixing board. If you did agood job creating your sounds, it will sound good with no adjustments needed and more importantly, very consistent across other venues as well. A modeller will give the sound guy exactly what he is trying to achieve,...a miked up sound. You can play with inears or let the sound guy provide you with 2 monitors for a stereo sound on stage. Basicly you can go to the gig with 1 or 2 guitars and your modeller of choice, setup in. 5 minutes. Most of us bring expensive gear to gigs to impress other guitar players that maybe in the audience. Well....those guitars players in the audience have to shut up, because you have work and they don't :) The "normal" people in the audience sure has hell don't give a rat's ass what equipement you are using. You are there to entertain!
My thoughts on this:
The sound guy doesn’t have your ears, but I think he needs more trebles than you, because they disappear with the distance.
At 15/20m it is not the same mix and without trebles it becomes dull.
So I often use earplugs if my floor monitor has the same mix than the front speakers (I like to hear everything).
I am one of those "sound guys", and as sound technicians, our job is to equalize all the instruments and voices, and it doesn't matter how well you have configured your guitar sound, it will not sound good if the technician does not fit it into the overall mix, which in turn depends on many factors such as the environment and the acoustics of the room or the place where the concert is.
Scott Henderson handles his soundchecks by recording into a loop pedal with the band. Then he can walk around the venue, see what it sounds like at the mixer, make suggestions, etc.
@@danielhornbeck6588 The same equalization and setup of a band playing in one place does not work in another place, that is why the "sound guys" are necessary if it would not be enough to do the sound check once and copy it for the rest of the concerts on the tour, but that It doesn't work like that, you always have to adapt the template or guide that is generated for the same band, because the acoustics influence it, the P.A. system. mounted influences, etc. No matter how good your guitar sounds to someone, in order for it to fit into the mix it will have to be processed depending on many parameters that change from one gig to another.
@@YonkyKADAVER yeah that's what I'm saying. Scott has a good means to that end.
In my experience, and I’ve been doing this for 30+ years, it all comes down to how you’re monitoring yourself. If I’m playing live in a small venue with limited monitoring I always use an amp with pedals. If using in-ears live I use a modeler and no cabinet. If studio I use whatever sounds proper for the recording but these days I can dial up a Kemper or Fractal or NI Guitar Rig faster than miking an amp. Most modern productions aren’t begging for real amps and would rather move quickly with maximum versatility. TLDR: if you’re playing live without monitoring use an amp, otherwise take advantage of digital gear.
Why don’t you use modeling live? Is it because of the monitoring situation? That’s my issue right now. I like how it sounds FOH but can’t comfortable with monitoring situation. I like IEM’s but if the the rest of the band is not using IEM’s they want something on stage to hear the guitar.
This.
Liked your live performance a lot ! FRFR: I agree with you. I ended up with the BluGuitar Amp 1 and its NanoCab. It's a suitable solution for traveling light and still loud (60W - up to 100 with my other cab loaded with an Alnico Cream) and 4 voices: Fendery clean, Voxy crunch, JCM 800 (very realistic) and Mesa Boogish modern tones. Plus on board reverb and boost: you just bring along a minimal pedalboard and off you go ! Cheers John.
The amp 1 and some form of ported cab is a good option. Small, light and powerful
I use the Quad Cortex with a Headrush 108 . At the start i hated the Sound but now it works perfectly for me. The Gamechanger for me is using the Eq (High and Low Pass ) and a little Monitorstand to keep the Speaker a few centimeter away from the ground. I am really happy with the result.
I use since one month an everse8 as Personnal monitor for my Kemper /Helix config and I think I will buy another one because of its Quality and versatility ! And I will be able to use them in a stereo context or as FOH in small gigs. With my Bose L1 model 2 they are really complementary… and for instance when I use playbacks I like to send drums in this everse8 some meters away from me to wider the sound landscape of my playbacks… well I like this versatility… and I can use too my Fender HotRod with Celestion Alnico cream in the monitor out of the Kemper (without cab sim) when I want to feel something really more “organic” musically Philippe
First off, thank you John for doing this video! Your content is always inspiring, and honest. I've not used FRFR yet... but I have some options... I have lots of little practice amps and the pod go. I also have a Focusrite SOLO interface and Bias FX2 coming out of Presonus Studio monitors. Since I just play at home, presently I've been playing around with going Guitar>Pod Go>Positive Grid Spark>effects loop of my orange 35RT. I'm on TH-cam all the time and I'm always hearing this is best, or that is best...but honestly, it's a large experiment for me, and that is the fun of it. Nobody should be able to tell you or me or anybody what is best, I think. IMO use what you've got. Stop buying equipment to buy equipment, or just because some TH-camr tells you to do it. Get what you need and use what you've got. Learning to use what you've got takes time, and I'll bet there are already good tones to be had with the gear you already have! You just have to dial in your sound a little from what bits and pieces of what you have cobbled together over the years. TRY things. It's not going to hurt to swap it around, and just SEE what it sounds like. Don't just take everyone's word that "this is the best"... Also, don't forget that with things like an interface and Bias FX 2 / and free amp sims, you can get pretty far without having to shell out a ton of money for actual hardware. If you have a decent PC, you can get a pretty nice home rig! Try stuff. Remember, people like Eddie Van Halen and the Edge from U2 just basically experiment until they come up with something good! Play guitar and have fun experimenting with different things!
I totally agree try things especially things you wouldn't normally expect back in 2001 I was without much money but I had a cheap guitar and a couple of old 70's or 80's home stereo pioneer amplifiers with quarter-inch microphone and headphone Jack I decided from the lack of equipment and strong will to play guitar I ran one of the stereos distorted into the other and had a very decent sound that I could play with it just worked.
John, thanks so much for this video. Judging by the number of comments, this seems like something a lot of people are interested in. I hope you can explore this subject some more in future videos as there is not a lot of info out there other than product demos. I have been looking for a portable solution to listen to my HX Stomp and Quad Cortex. Currently is use a pair of Focal studio monitors - which sound great AND produce a great stereo sound - but I don't want to move them off my desk. Your suggestion to "try what you have" first is an excellent one, especially if you are on a budget. The FRFR rabbit hole looks like it could be like a particularly large and expensive one. All of this to say, I am going to try a Henriksen Bud. If I really like it, I might get a second one - as opposed to a speaker extension cab - to go for stereo. Quad Cortex Out Left to one and QC Out Right to the other. Someone should make a solid state amp with a stereo power set up and a line out to a speaker cab. That way you could set up the amps for optimal stereo effect. This would be opposed to something like a Line6 PowerCab 212 or a Mission Gemini 2 - both of which are stereo cabs with fixed speakers. Thank you, John, your content is really, really great!
LOVE these clips from your gigs !
Don't forget, most modelers, if not all of them, are equipped with EQ blocks. You can also add an EQ to your rig. An EQ is a way of controlling any unwanted frequencies coming through your FRFR. Personally, I like the full range of an FRFR because there are certain presets that wouldn't sound nearly as full without it.
It doesn’t give you the warm organic orgasm that only tubes provide to this day. You’ve been brainwashed to forget my child. Let me bring you back to the light. Don’t forget the light of analog, that which feels, and touches your tone with warm embrace. ❤
use filter .then set low and high pass to 5k .
The key thing with the FRFR approach is that impulse responses don't simulate the sound of a speaker, they simulate the sound of a microphone in front of a speaker. Running this 'mic'd' sound through another speaker is more like listening through a wedge monitor, which is a very different experience to listening to the sound of a real guitar speaker cab in the same space.
I really wish helix had "no mic" as a selection. This is the problem I've always had trying to play in a room with other folks through a frfr. Seems like a no brainer?
@@zipporaidwith a powercab you can have that. From Helix amp you send straight to powercab. Powercab has speaker models without mics.
@@zipporaid Completely agree! The only problem is....how would they capture the sound without using a mic? But, that begs the question: how did they come up with the speaker simulations for the Powercab+? There's gotta be a way for them to do this.
@@ryanpjolley I believe folks have made IRs in anechoic settings with reference mics, maybe a flat mic option like an earthworks type would be the easiest solution
@@zipporaid They do. And I know this because I had the same wish as you! I play out of 12" guitar combo amps, using the FX loop, and QSC10's. On both of those I don't use a cab or IR block. I just use an EQ block - which is exactly what an IR is. On a guitar amp you usually don't have to use much EQ, only tune to taste. On my QSC's I'll start with a HPF around 70/80hz and a LPF around 4500ish. And I'll usually boost around the 2k-4k range. But you can do whatever you want! I started to love digital modeling after I learned about this.
I use a Headrush 108 with my Helix and find that Global EQ in Helix is an easy and great way of fine tuning my live sound. I found that cutting the top end to around 4.1K takes that top end sharpness/hiss away and makes it more " real " sounding. The bottom end is really down to the room or band sound so I'll cut that to suit.
Im using two Headrush 12’s & Helix for my Chapman Stick rig. They carry the bass side of the stick really well. Love them
I'm using a pair of HR108s. For the price, they are amazing. You do need to trim back the lows and highs but that's a piece of cake with any modeler.
@@JM-eq3sx yip, that’s where global eq in helix is very handy imo. 🤘😉
@@JM-eq3sx This is what I dont understand . You get two frfr and then end up trimming the frequencies to emulate a real guitar amp. So , why bother and use a guitar amp designed for the purpose. For the price of two , even cheap HR frfr's you could get a really good guitar amp . Yeah ok it is personal choice but I feel this frfr stuff is just a complete con some people are buying into.
@@druidhugger6311
Because a real guitar amp is just one amp.
I do have several real guitar amps of different sizes and types. I don't want to carry them all to a gig, as if I could.
As great as real amps are, I like the flexibility of a modeler for the gigs I do, which cover a wide range of musical styles.
There are some guitarists who have one sound (maybe 2 or 3) all night, and some of them can make it work. I want maximum versatility.
I want to feel a Marshall when I play Rocky Mountain Way, an AC30 when I play Tie Your Mother Down, a Fender Twin when I play Hotel California...
They aren't "perfect" replicas but they are ideal for what I want to do.
Like PA cabs, FRFR cabs are not perfectly flat. The HRs seem very bottom heavy, but they are ideal, again, for what I want.
Just blew the HR 2nd tweeter in 6 months. Not happy about that though. Might just disconnect it rather than replacing it again.
I agree John. My first purchase after the Quad Cortex was the Atomic wedge FRFR. I thought it sounded ok until one day I plugged into just a powered PA top. I realized the atomic wedge was very nasally sounding to my ears and I sold it immediately. I now just use a Yamaha 10” powered pa top for live use and it sounds fine for on stage sound to me.
The reason in theory a FRFR cabinet is supposed to work is because the simulation of the amp and speakers in a modeling amp is basically a already mic’ed cab, and you are listening to the studio mixed version of the amp and speaker, so in theory the FRFR cabs should be like a good pair of studio speakers and should be fine, but! The problem is most powered FRFR wedges with the tweezers are so directional that as soon as you move 3 feet to the right or left you are no longer getting accurate sound, because studio speakers and any home speakers are meant to be listened to while sitting in the “sweet spot” in the center of both speakers. So that’s never going to work in a live situation! So we just have to remember modeling amps are tools, and they are a compromise that just makes things easier sometimes, but whenever I can use my real amp I do! I have two Friedman powered FRFR wedges that weigh around 63 pounds each! I never use more than one, but mostly none Live, I just ask the sound guy to put me in my house monitor, and I pretend I’m having fun until it’s over! lol and I just wait for a real gig when I can use my real tube amps! Life is about knowing what is best the tool for the job at hand, every gig is different! 🤟🏽😋
You caused me to finally hook up my helix to my Mesa 2:90 stereo tube power amp! Then i went out into my Marshall 1960 split stereo 4X12 cab.
It sounds so incredible! For a year I only went out to a PA system and was happy enough.
What got me motivated and curious was your comment about the existence of tweeters being unnatural for guitar amplification which finally got me to try this today! Thank you very much.
You directly saved me well over $1,000 as I was in the FRFR market. 😊
Thanks John. I'm really enjoying using my Pod Go with Cab / IRs on into the Power Amp In of my Katana 100 MK ii. The reason this works is that I have fitted a Celestion FRLR (Full Range Live Response) Triple Cone 150w speaker (purposefully designed for guitar modellers) to the Kat. The perfect combination for me.
The FX return on any modeling amp with a good speaker should work fine. If you've got reference monitors you could EQ your amp to sound pretty close to your reference monitors. I'm going to change my home setup to A/B between reference monitors and tube amp. I agree the FRFR thing is too expensive. Tweak what you have first.
Dude...that intro was beautiful!! Great phrasing. Really wish I could play like that.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on this subject.
First two gigs coming up. Subconsciously this video also has prompted me to have a band style and stage craft discussion 🙂.
Its easy to be a critic.
Thanks again
Laney LFR-112 FRFR got a tweeter but you can adjust to your liking - also you can switch if off completely.
I had a headrush FRFR for a bit that I used with Strymon Iridium- I did not find it to give me what I was looking for and sold it. I am much happier honestly with the sound of going into the FX return of my marshall. Sometimes I even like to put my amps preamp in to 4 cable with the HX stomp and essentially create my own clean channel by turning that FX loop on or off. Works particularly well with more old school amps that do not have a squeaky clean channel or have a shared gain ( Like my Marshall Juibilee).
I am now using the Boss GT-1000. Usually the stage monitor do the job. But! I like to use a Fender Vintage sidekick keyboard 70w amp for the back line as well. It has 2 inputs with volume control, bass, mid and treble eq. It has a 10 inch speaker in a closed, ported cabinet with very good bass response with no tweeter! Small, light weight and cheap!! The reason I really like it, is I put it on an amp stand and you can easily tweek the eq and volume, they are right there on the front. No pesky tweeter yet still has pretty flat eq. Not so loud but the whole idea is to keep the stage volume down right? So it's great when you want to move to the back of the stage away from the sweet spot of the floor monitors and still hear yourself play.
FRFR (in something like Powercab) is most useful if you need the flexibility of different speaker tones. But its really necessary if you need to include acoustic guitar tones in your guitar mix. No question that a modeler into the effect return of a tube amp into a good guitar speaker will sound better. But it won't be very flexible.
Agreed - though Jonathon makes good points regarding straight electric tones. For a number of years the project I was working with needed a variety of stringed sounds, for me the Helix and Variax were the solution. From electrics to acoustic 6 and 12 strings, dobro, banjo - I even pumped percussion and keys through the system. Simply wouldn't sound right through a frequency-limited cab.
I've been using Guitar -> USB Interface -> VST Plugin -> Power amp -> Mesa 2x12 cabinet signal chain for the longest time.
To answer the "why not just bring a real amp?" question, the modeler gives you a spectrum of choices. While they aren't the "real" Deluxe Reverb or Boogie Mark IV, the approximation a modeler creates gives you both in a single cabinet.
For an original band, I would go with the tube amp (or amps) suited to the music.
I'm looking at the Red Sound ELIS 8 and MF10. Nobody has done a side by side comparison yet, and they're way too expensive to experiment with both. A pair of the 8's looks very appealing.
But your video makes a lot of sense. I listen to some old recordings, many generations of gear in the past, and think, "Damn, I had a really good sound, should have just stuck with that." But it never seems quite enough in the moment and in the midst of a live performance.
The Henriksen did sound pretty dark in your video by the way. I thought it was where the camera was positioned. It worked well for what you were playing but it would be lost in my band.
For a cover band, a modeler is far more practical, and if the audience enjoys the music, the purist standing in the corner will have to concede that it does the job very well.
I'm in a tribute band and we cover the artist from Woodstock to the present. His guitars and amps, and therefore tone, have changed quite a bit over the years. I could do it with discrete pedals but the modeler makes it much easier and lets me think about the music.
Tube amps can be fickle too. I have a Boogie Nomad head in my basement. I may have to break it out and see how it works. Assuming you have a combo. What speaker(s) are in it?
You could still use a modeler for pedals and use a real amp, or use a digital preamp into a tube power amp.
Similar to what they did in the late 80s with things like the Mp1 or the Triaxis.
Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but the Tech 21 Power Engine 60 is just an un-colored power amp and guitar speaker cab. They work wonderfully.
Too bad they're not in production anymore. :0/
I had a awful experience with the Powe Engine 60. Very disappointing... 😢
@@LuisM_Piozza what happened?
Option B, an EHX Magnum 44
I've gotten amazing tones running my Nux MG-30 into the power amp in on my Katana 50. I upgraded the speaker to a Celestion Neo Creamback. I turn the IRs off. The speaker is very versatile with different amp models. Still a cheap solution when I want an amp. At church I go straight to PA.
I need to try this with my pod go and katana again. Thanks for reminding me :D.
Similar - I use a joyo american sound pedal into the power in on my Kat 50, sounds brilliant. Oddly the AS pedal seems to take OD pedals better than the kat pre-amp, much smoother low-gain sound. Kat as a powered cab, given the price of 50 mk2's now is an absolute bargain if you don't need FRFR.
Great tone dude! I was watching without looking and was surprised to see you using a Tele, all goes to show it's about the touch, feel and amp tone vs the guitar itself
HX Stomp + Henriksen Blu or Bud is a solid setup. Light, perfect for at home, gig-able,
For years we have simply run our Line 6 units direct into PAs.. live or practice. Actually the only amp in our band is used by the keyboard player for his Hammond.
It seems to me that if you are home dialing in tones through your monitors and in-ears that the purpose is on the way to being defeated by introducing another amp and cabinet. Personally, once I've captured and balanced the tones and set the effects, all I want to do from there is scale up to performance volumes. The last thing I want to do is add more variables. I just use whatever PA tops like a QSC K8 or a pair if I feel like stereo. Then the house sounds more or less the same, my stage sounds more or less the same, and my in-ears sound more or less the same, as what I dialed in at my studio. Why mess with that more than you need to? If it's for eq you could just have the Global eq up and fix it from the unit. No extra cartage and fast breakdown. You may even have enough extra time to buy your girl a drink. What a concept.
Yeah, I agree. However, I think people want reinforcement from behind them like an amp. In that case a cheap SS guitar amp is good.
@@kyran4238 Why can't you put a monitor behind you? They even lie at the right angle to hear it without raising it up or tilting it back.
@@3mstudiospalmdesert kinda defeats the purpose of FRFR as won’t be hearing “flat response” through the back of your head. It is also the worst of both worlds because the modeling benefits of low stage volume and matching FOH and stage tone are negated, and you don’t experience the thrill and nostalgia of having a cranked tube amp on stage.
@@kyran4238 , you can also place them in front if you want. Like monitors or in ear. I have an incredible amp collection, and I can tell you honestly that I don't miss them with the Quad Cortex, where I put all my amps accurately into. It's at that point now. I can't deny it. Tube amps are no longer better.
@@3mstudiospalmdesert I don’t disagree, I just don’t see a practical reason for placing it behind unless there is no FOH or it needs reinforcement from an on stage source.
Thank's for all your videos you are great ,your videos help me a lot 👍👋
Always appreciate your neutral rationale well thought out videos. Cheers
The live performance (@04:58) with people dancing is great, even the singer likes it !
Anxiously awaiting the video on this new tele. Looks really cool.
You're such a fantastic guitarist! I could watch, and hear you for hours.
"Fletcher Munson, he's got curves."
Awesome. I love it!
[As mentioned on another, I'm enjoying your vids! I would suggest normalizing the audio between cuts if possible. And thanks for having CC turned on!)
My Mk II Katana 100 & Mk II Artist both have the Power Amp in feature for modelers. My Headrush Prime sounds pretty good through both amps.
I use a Bose S1 Pro with the Iridium and all of my modelers on the past. Sounds awesome
When I use modelers into FRFR, I found the key to improving the sounds for guitar, is to use EQ to attenuate / eliminate frequencies below 60-70 Hz and above 3-5 kHz; adjust to your rig and tastes
So basically the same effect you'd get from running through a guitar cab then
I use the boss GX-100 4 cable method into my Orange half stack. Turn cab block off and sounds amazing.
I just got a solid state power amp to feed my favorite cab, and to me it’s the perfect sweet spot for helix. All I was missing was a real cab in the room, not amp in the room.
Concur. Small valve amp (20w) not very heavy, a couple of pedals and I'm done. I went the whole modelling thing in the early 2000s. OK, the models are better now but it wasn't the sound that was the problem, it was the complexity. And anything that puts functions in the cloud is disposable. My POD pro stuff still works, but I don't know for how long I'll be able to continue to programme it with a computer, the software was deprecated 15 years ago. It still works (in a tiny tiny window) at the moment but I don't expect it to continue. The equipment I have that has lasted is my guitar (71 Gibson), amp (2002) and synths from the 80s. Oh, and mics, of course. Just about everything else ages out. KISS. You might annoy a sound engineer (and I used to be one before the big studios closed) but their job is to make you sound good and if they moan at having to mic an amp, they shouldn't be an engineer. By all means, use equipment that isn't too loud and setup your amp/cab so the speakers are facing your ears as much as possible, but I don't see why anyone should compromise more than that in this area. Sure, work with them, but dumping your sound into FOH and in-ears only, is probably the least rock'n'roll thing you could do. But I digress. Guitar amps, valve amps, are a mature, successful tech. Unless you're in a cover band so need to match exactly a particular sound (and I feel sorry for you), find your own sound and play that. You shouldn't need 1000 different effects presets for a gig. Sorry, I shouldn't be giving advice. That's what I do, you do you.
I use my powered Kemper into my Engl XL Pro cab, speaker off on Kemper obviously. Sounds awesome!
tried a few frfr, now its an olde v22 bugera, first in return loop, but its even better in the clean normal channel - excellent sound and playability
I’ve been using the power amp in on a boss katana for gigs recently. It works really nicely with a modeler, there’s no eq on that setup but it does sound just like the modeler is a real amp.
I did the same then got powercab 112+. Katana sounded great and more open.
Are you using mono out presets into the power amp in? Any other advice? I already own a Katana so I want to try that with FM9 before buying anything else. Thanks
I’ve had great success with a Friedman ASM12. It’s made of birch with a Celestion in it, so it thumps like a real cab. If I have an opportunity, I sometimes use a Powerstage 170 and a Marshall 1960B with V30s.
For whom do you want to create a good sound, for you or for the listeners?
if you have a bad sound on stage, it WILL affect your playing, picking etc...
@Strepite What about if your sound is fine, but far from perfect?
My observation is, that people, who are to much concentrating on their sound, are typically sounding bad in the mix. In case of guitar, to loud, to much gain, to much into frequencies of other instruments, ...
@ Let me rephrase, if you play with an amp and you are happy, and then switch to other technology (modeling) and you're not happy with your monitoring, you will most likely sound worse on main PA, you will pick too hard if the monitor is too dark sounding, or sound muddy if your monitoring is sharp and you pick too softly...
So much of the sound comes from YOUR playing. That's why you have amazing guitarists pick shit guitars and it sounds stunning. It's mostly in the hands and feel, so if you don't hear yourself properly, things could go wrong sound-wise...
@Strepite But that is exactly the issue! If the sound for you and for the audience is different, the guitar player will optimize the playing for what he hears, not for what the audience hears!
You have to adapt to monitors, but it is worth it. If you get used to in ears, that can really give you a bonus. An Amp on Stage is the most unreliable option you can have. You only need to kick the mic once and the sound is completely different.
I was going to warn you that stacking an IR into a real cab could dampen some of your top end, and then you went right into the diatribe about being treble sensitive. Sometimes it just WORKS. :) Great video and discussion.
I'm a home player. I bought a pair of Atomic CLR powered FRFR's a few years back. While they were good, I didn't feel they were $2k-good.
As an experiment, I ran through a pair of 8" Mackie studio monitors. At low-medium volumes, they did quite well. Right now, I'm running QC into a pair of Adam A77X's and I've never been happier.
I thought I was the only one who liked the tone of the modeler speaker/ir in addition to the actual amp speaker. I look at it as another EQ option, essentially using the ir as a EQ preset of sorts, shaping the tone before it hits the amp. And, as you mentioned, seems to keep my tone more consistent at a variety of volumes.
I’ve been using a Line 6 Catalyst 100w plugged into the return/power amp in. But I just recently made my own stereo rig. It started as a Trace Elliot 2x12 combo amp someone was throwing away. The amp had been ripped out and was in pieces, but the cab was good and was loaded with Celestion V30s. I cut a slot in the top of the cab to drop in an ART SL-2 single space power amp and wired the speakers in stereo. No more cab sims for me…except going direct to the mixer for FOH
Ah man…I edited my comment and I lost your ❤️ John!
I had three experiences with my GX 100 in a live Situation. One time I had to share the Stage and the other Guitarist had a Marshall Stack with Send Return . With no editing from my Studio Setting I was trying the Effects Return of the Marshall and it sounded great. The other thing is a 200W Harley Benton G212 FR Cabinet I am using in our Rehersal Room. Sounds great. A Headrush FR 108 sounded awful to me. But the best thing I experienced was a Kemper Power Kabinet . That sounds like a real Tube Amp . Perfect.
Hi But the Kemper has already IRs if I’m not wrong? So you can put them off?
@@pascalbourhis No you can't do anything without the Kemper Profiler. I don't mind because it sounds good. To be honest, I didn't even put the Cabsim in my GX100 off.
@@sixtyaffairs Strange that sound good because your cumulate 2 cabs sim…
I also have the GX-100 + the same Harley Benton. I do not use any of the GX-100 cabs sims but I use IRs that sounds terrible!
I think this is a bit of a gimmick... Guitarists come from a world where cabinets are meant to colour sound. That is what they know and are used to. So when they start using simulated cabs, they are told that if you run a simulated cab through a real cab, it will sound very, very bad. Which is true. But then they're told that the cure for this is a full range, flat response speaker. Here's one, for loads of cash! Specially made for guitar players! But the truth is that most PA speakers try to achieve a full range, flat response. Some come closer than others, but the point is that you can just get a good PA speaker and it will be good enough. Maybe add an EQ block before the output, or maybe use the global EQ if this is a speaker you use all the time, and it will be just as good.
Or you can get a guitar power amp and a sweet cabinet of your choice 😉
@@maxwellbrewer8637 Why would I spend more money for less?
Or you could get iem’s and go completely in ear
@@adityabali1939 I'm sure the audience will enjoy that greatly.
@@CristiNeagu I’ve never played a gig where the audience was listening to my guitar amp on the stage. Most venues have stage sound and PA sound separate. If the audience is going to hear the mix that the in house engineer has made, your point isn’t valid.
In such a situation IEM makes more sense. I should mention i play metal
I’m reading all the comments that go from one spectrum to the other, so no help there. I agree 💯 with you John my experience and problem with an FRFR is the tweeter, I hate that extra high sizzle and not all frfr’s have a way to turn off the tweeter. My Blacklabel EV with the Duncan power amp sounds the best out of all my speaker selections but it weighs a ton. Still looking for the best solution, but I can honestly say your videos help tremendously and I’m very appreciative. 🤘🏼✌🏼
Recently sold my Line6 PowerCab and have my Laney 212 LFR for sale. Loved the sound, but it was very directional. As soon as I stepped out of the "beam" I could no longer hear myself. Just bought a Twin Tonemaster and use Helix as FX only... its a revelation... Sound from everywhere and back to natural feedback etc. And yes having a EQ on the front of the amp helps. I also have a high cut on global EQ and usually cut aroun 5-6khz at home and at gigs down to 2.5-3khz.
And the LFR 212 sounds montrous... love it! But Twin wins, also its half the weight.
I currently use a Headrush pedalboard through the effects return to 2 Marshall heads and into 2 Marshall 1960 cabs, running stereo, and yes I leave the ir on and there is no phase issues, with Headrush when you turn the ir off it sounds like a chain saw. So for me doing live shows. I either use the Marshall Heads or Solid State power amps in stereo, absolutely does the trick. I sold both FRFR made everything to digital. The Tube heads using just the power section give it warmth. I myself don’t run direct to a console. I mic both cabs. People says that defeats the purpose. It depends on the individual guitarist. If you want a warm tone and don’t mind keeping Extra gear to do it why not, if you just want to plug straight in and not use cabs if that works for you great 😊
Really insightful, thanks for sharing your monitoring experiences!
Good video. I use one of 2 FRFRs, one being a powercab 112 and the other is a Headrush FRFR112. A few weeks ago I did an A/B test and found that the Headrush had more amp-like qualities (at least for what I want to hear) than the PC. These are just for my monitoring on stage although I tend to put them behind me as I would an amp. My sound comes from the mains in stereo. I could just bring one of my 2 tube amps and run into the return but I also carry and run sound and lights so there's no room for an amp. The FRFR sits upright seat belted in my passenger seat in my car. Again, I just use it to hear myself and not for the amp in the room sound. If I ever quit doing sound I'll probably go back to an amp. I used to have a Headrush pedalboard and it sounded excellent through the amp.
I just ordered a Headrush mx5 and am considering selling my jazz chorus 40 amp for the headrush 108, maybe two of them in stereo. I have a full pedal board as well, and I realized I don't use the JC-40 for any of the tone or color.
Have you tried the Mooer GE300 at all?
Seems like there are two ideal scenarios: 1) Use In-ears onstage with no FRFR to be concerned about, 2) split your signal from your guitar into a Modeler for FOH soundman and the other end going into a real guitar amp. That way you have a normal amp experience on stage while knowing the FOH and potentially recording being made will have a much better guitar sound, and no need to mic the amp. Everything in between seems problematic one way or another.
After watching this, I just tried to leave the IR active through the return of a solid state amp into a 1x12 with an Eminence speaker. After some tweeking (with lo and hi cuts) I did get a better result than without it. Some of the harshness from my 1x12 (even with normal setups) was taken away and it sounded bigger. Not perfect but fully usable. Thanks for the video and valuable advice
I plug my Zoom G3n into the power amp in of my Fender Champ 25R and it sounds really wonderful.
The preamp in the combo is so noisy and it hummy. The power amp noise floor by contrast is silent.
For clean stuff it really is great and 25W is good enough for stage monitoring.
The G3n does a decent job emulating a range of preamps for high gain stuff.
Using a cab emulation also helps as the volume goes up and the natural breakup of the power tubes sounds divine.
I had my Zoom on Krampus and ran it to my 5150 Iconic and my 4x12 celestion cab to the left and a Randall 100 watt 2x12 on the right. It was phenomenal. Had to downsize. Almost cried.
Have to go with one of these.
I tried so many different rigs, amps, pedals and I’ve finished up with my Marshall DSL with a FM3 in 4CM. Nothing gives me that “amp” feel, which is hard to explain, but those who know, will know what I mean. There’s nothing else that gives me the choices of effects and amps like the FM3.
I’m so pleased with the set up.
I like running my Kemper Stage in stereo to my Line 6 Powercab 212+, and then taking a mono XLR from the Powercab to the FOH. Allows me to have full “stereo” stage monitoring but pass-through a mono signal to the sound engineer. Independent volume control onstage that doesn’t affect the level sent to FOH.
I recently took my kemper stage to a rehearsal. I normally use a traditional valve amp (tone king falcon grande). And we’re LOUD. in the past I’ve run the kemper through a headrush 108 FRFR but a bad back meant this time I just went into our PA. And immediately everyone thought it was amazing because they could all clearly hear me (there were 4 different PA speakers running). There’s a mindset change from this for me: the FRFR is basically a PA speaker. It’s not an amp and it doesn’t replace one. It’s there as a monitor to let me hear myself. The band PA is there for everyone else to hear me. It’s not an amp or an amp replacement. Oh, and next time I take the valve amp, it’ll a) be attenuated and b) mic’d and then it’ll be better heard (not louder) for all!
My experience: have tried modeling/FRFR multiple times. have worked long and hard to dial in something I think I would be proud to play in public. Every time I think I am there...I plug into my amps...and...game over - the amps are just ...well, better. Warmer, fuller, more responsive. John you have it right. If that is the sound I like, why am I trying to work so hard to dial in all the variables, just to end up with an inferior experience? Sure, we haul less equipment, but we put out a lesser sound, to my ears. To be fair, I have both a Helix and a Line 6 HX Effects. I find I use the HX Effects over the Helix, as it fits on my board along side several other pedals. I use the HX Effects for the majority of the signal massaging (EQ, compression), MIDI and signal routing. I can add mono effects such as Trem and of course various drives. I also take advantage of the effects loops to add high end OD and/or distortion pedals. Then I run all of that into the front of one of my amps, taking the preamp out signal back to the pedal board where I run the signal through my stereo modulation effects. I return those outputs one each to my two Fender Deville 4x10 amps. Freaking glorius stereo heaven. For me at least.
Great info. Just purchased a Quad Cortex. I have a Blackstar HT 5r, I’ll definitely try it wit the QC. Cheers
Yours is good advice. I tried two FRFRs with my Fractal FM3 -- the Atomic NEO MKII and Xitone 12" Active Wedge . I sold them both because, as you've experienced, they just don't work well live. I've since been using a Quilter Tone Block 202 into two 12" cabs with high watt NEO speakers. The Quilter has an FRFR voicing, which together with the NEO cabs, runs quite flat. I'm able to keep both amp and cab modelling turned ON while running the FM3 into the front of the Quilter. You can run into the Quilter's FX Loop return, but that disables all of the Quilter controls except its reverb and master volume. By running it into the front, the Quilter EQ and other controls remain active and gives easy access to adjustment. In addition, the Quilter is itself an amp so you can use it as a back up to the modeller should something happen to it during a gig. You can also use the Quilter's built-in IR voicings with your modeller's effects only, by creating a preset that do not have amp or cab blocks.
I also use the Quilter 202 with FRFR, it's fantastic. but I use the QC!
I use a EHX magnum solid state into a 2 x 10 cab I swapped the cab guitar speakers for pa speakers £66 for both and plug in the modeller. Works.
With MY valve amp and a 1x12 cab to get a good sound I could only use the modeller as a multi effects pedal, using the amps and cabs of the modeller sounded thin and terrible spent the night adjusting eq's
I'm afraid to let go off the valve amp and cab as it really is the best sound, but the convenience of a powered FRFR set up still draws me in.
I like the darker tones as well. I also prefer my QC into a boogie tube amp and I leave my cab sim on as well. Sounds and feels how I like.
I love my headrush and 2x frfr108s… but my band hated it. I added a marshall avt50 with a 4x12 as a mono out. (using 1/4” and the 2 xlrs go to the frfr cabs on stands). It sounds glorious. One show we also mic’d the marshall thru the PA and it was even more awesome. BUT I got sick of lugging equipment. Now I just use the marshall (because my band finds frfr only unacceptable, not because it’s the better option). Personally I would just bring the Headrush and go right into the PA stereo xlr and maybe one frfr behind me to monitor things. But the reality is it’s my singer’s band and I can do the whole set with 2 sounds (clean and dirty) with a boost for leads and a wah. I do miss the huge sound I was getting with both but for practical reasons I gave up trying to convince luddite musicians who listen with their eyes that my “r2-d2” modeler is all that’s needed. In fact, the audience only really hear the PA anyway so the “amp in the room” thing is for the band… When I do my own thing you probably won’t see an amp on stage… for now I’ll enjoy the bar owner rolling his eyes as the 4x12s come in… cant say I blame them but I did try!
Great comment 👍🏻
Such a phenomenal player
I’ve been using the powercab plus and bringing down the HF Trim in its settings to around -2.5 . I tried turning off the tweeter but I think this works better for me
Interesting concept, so i run a bit of an interesting rig. I run a Kemper rack and an engl pre amp with a VHT D50 handwired dumble clone, the VHT has a Pre amp bypass so it becomes a Fryette Power amp essentially, but if i want heavy heavy i have the Engl, the kemper is great for everything else depending. and then i have that running out into an old 1970s princeton that was broken from work, took the amp out and its now a 2x10 cab with a Fender blue (eminence)10 inch speaker from 1970 and a celestion 10 creamback. theres a seperate 2x4 cab depending on what i need todo. but its pretty cool playing around with all the difference tones and possiblites you can have
Our band has found that the best and more stable (no surprises) solution in terms of sound quality is to get rid of all amps and cabinets and have all instruments connecting directly to a mixer (and guitars through their modellers) , and use FRFR for stage monitors and PA front house.
I use Two Notes Le Clean tube preamp with Two Notes CAB M+ (4x12 V30) after it, pedals before and stereo pedals after it.
Im a little bit torn between Fender FR-12 to use after CAB M+ VS EHX 5mm poweramp and just a regular cab with V30.
I suspect the cab with real guitar speaker could use alot better even without ale the eq options avaliable on FR-12 (i have a eq pedal
i ill need to shape the sound some more), also that would have no latency at all.
I also have and like my Ibanez TSA15 combo but i love the fender twin sounds from Le Clean preamp.
the concept of FRFR assumes that your modeling of the power amp reactance and speaker and cabinet responses are referenced to a flat response. you could also just correct the response of the IR or just EQ it to allow for the different response of your non-FRFR speaker, ie. a regular PA speaker which is just somewhere between an FRFR and a guitar speaker. look at the speakers in a Positive Grid Spark. They have neither the response of a guitar speaker or a flat response but the response is electronically compensating for the speaker.
I've used an old Peavey Bandit 65 to amplify modelers for many years when I wasn't going direct into a PA.
I use the Friedman FRFR and it solved my problem of not having my presets sound the same through
FOH PA as they do at home. I don't have an on stage amp because we use in-ear monitors. When I was using my (cheap) studio monitors my preset dod not translate well.
Have a look at the first generation of Bluguitar`s Amp1 (they call it silver edition). It is a 100W amp of just around 1kg. Connecting a modeler to the return input of this amp is going to give you a high end modeler amplification. It is dead quiet and very organic. For me one of the best amplifiers for modelers. Although the amp itself is excellent, but if you prefer your modeler sounds, its power amp is outstanding.
I believe I have a video with one up here somewhere!!
I liked the 4CM but now I’m using a headrush 8 frfr…but I’ve never used it live…works great for the bedroom…live I’m using my old peavey 5150 60w combo…rock on bro!!!!
A lot of tweeters, particularly cheaper ones, are a bit harsh, don't have a smooth response.
With a crossover point around 1.8kHz to 2.5kHz any phase problems could be messing with important frequencies for guitar.
Bi-amped powered cabs will have the crossover before the power amps which can help.
Having your own sound source is a good safety net if you don't know the pa you'll be using.
Love your personality, sincerity, musicality. Regarding EVM 12 inch: I had one in a Fender Deluxe for a couple years; until I played a 12" Celestion in a similar Fender Deluxe I could not get the personality, warmth, typical Guitar speaker distortion. For me the EVM was like a PA speaker… Sort of FRFR 🙂
Beautiful intro with that Tele!
Moral of this video is know what you want when experimenting. You'll often find you don't need a ton of gear to be content in most cases. FRFR is cool but I honestly have gotten a more rounded glassy sound to my liking out of a fender solid state. Doesn't ad gain as much as tube Amp when adding volume. Also with using the EQ pedal on the podgo I get a good enough sound to not make me spend hundreds of dollars. Go direct Amp out mic the Amp. And have one cable going to front of house with Amp and cab modeling on. You almost get a dual Amp sound to fill any gaps you might feel your missing in tone. Been my experience so far.
Pair of QSC K12.2’s. They have some useful EQ’ing functions and I/O options that make them versatile.
That's got to sound massive. You've got your own Front of House system.
@@JM-eq3sx
They do push some sound. I’m an old timer guitar player, but a newbie to modeling. At first I got them to use as basic sound reinforcement, but soon realized they did a great job with modelers and they became dedicated. Probably a bit more power than I would need. Their sweet spot is quite loud, but sound good a lower levels too.
You're living the dream, those are great speakers.
@@MattPriceGuitar
👍👍👍
I use a tube amp. What's FRFR? Is it food?
I do the same with the speaker ir still engaged. I know people say not to do that but to MY ears...It sounds FANTASTIC. Im using a 44 Magnum and a 1x12 cab btw
Thank you for this video and discussing this topic. I personally 100% understand the issue with the sensitivity to high end frequencies. That drives me crazy. I bought a Fender Tonemaster FR 12, and with all that EQ possibilities, it still sounds harsh. I dont understand the buzz around it. I prefer using a Harley Benton Power Station (80€) following the Boss IR2 and run it into a Harley Benton 1x12 V30 speaker cabinet at home. Way better.
A used solid state stereo combo is the perfect fit, & some of them are dirt cheap. The cheap ones are anything inspired by a Roland JC-120, but made by Fender / Peavey / Crate etc. usually marketed as 'Chorus' amps. I use preamp pedals with stereo FX into the stereo FX returns, it's a killer budget stereo rig.
I've started running my Pod Go into my old Marshall Code, turning off all effects and amp emulators in the code, so it's just a powered speaker cabinet that was built to emulate a wide variety of speaker cabinets (and also super cheap)
LOL! "and he's got curves" oh man, that made me laugh. I needed that, thanks!
Love the singers shoes and the dancing crowd
Whatever sound you dial in at home or in the studio invariably won't work in a live situation and that's why one of the most useful pedals on the planet is a BOSS 7 band EQ. Its a great clean boost (as well) and allows you to sculpt your sounds to suit the venue. Each venue has different acoustics - that's why there are things called sound checks... of course smaller bands and pub / wedding events won't have this luxury - hence the BOSS is great to tweak during the gig. Playing to an empty venue in comparison to playing to it full of people affects the sound as well. It a live situation more mids are useful (to cut through the mix) - your "bedroom/studio set-up" won't reflect this as you're not playing with a full band at home... so at home less mids - during a gig more is required.
That PEDAL show has a lot of useful info about EQs etc. Lastly there are some really good "amp-in-a-pedal" solutions out there, where I am sure you could plug your modeller into it to get really good tones. I am considering one of the H&K Spirit Nano amps, which I think will be a great way of generating great sounds at lowish cost for home recording as well as playing "live" - I suggest one that has a decent amount of headroom or a solid state amp that won't distort at hight volumes.
I agree with John - why buy a FRFR to take to a gig when you can carry a guitar speaker cab... I suggest a 1x12 is more than good enough for 80% of the time - buy a used one.
interesting discussion - I always preferred Moeller into power amp (orange pedal baby) into guitarcab - the speakersim of the modeler only for the recording /FOH signalpath
Was running my Fractal FM3 into a Friedman ASM12 for a long time, and I loved it, but it was heavy (52 lbs), and a bit awkward to carry the rare times I did jam with other people. Most importantly, even at really low volume settings, my family still complained that it was just too loud. I now run my FM3 into a pair of Kali LP6 v2 studio monitors and am enjoying a comparable experience even at lower volumes.
I use an axeFX and solid state Carvin amp into some old 90s 2x12 randall cabs with no problems. Not saying frfr wouldn't sound better/different but I'm happy with what I'm using and haven't heard any complaints.
Absolutely true. Those are indeed the main problems one encounters when using the FRFR. The FRFR is something extraordinary, I use it all the time. However players using them on youtube sound horrible. And maybe I never would have bought it, if I had seen a video of them before. The sound is so raw. It is not made to plug and play. And that's what most do. You have to have production concepts to be able to exploit it to the fullest. That is where the designers of these speakers have gone wrong. They are not for guitarists.
I've never used any powered cab - I just run direct and use the house PA floor monitors.
The 3 keys to making this work- 1) dial in your sound for live use through a real PA at volume. 2) be respectful and clear with the sound engineer on what you need to hear on stage. 3) keep your global EQ open for last-minute tweaks to fit the room.
This path is relatively more risky because you're relying on the sound engineer and house PA, but frankly if I'm playing somewhere where they can't get my guitar loud and clear enough on stage, there are likely a whole host of other sound issues that should be addressed and the venue is likely unworthy of anyone's time.
I have the same three keys in mind. However, most of the house PA floor wedges I've had the... um... "privilege" of using have speakers that sound like they were broken in by dunking them in a vat of Bud Light. ;)
I did that once and it sounded so bad I thought my modeler cab simulator was off. The house sound man said the monitors were "optimized for vocals", which meant nothing but mids.
@@johnlerro997 That sucks, I definitely would have politely asked them to remove any board EQ on my guitar channel or remove the high/low shelves since you have more than just vocals in the monitors