Do THIS to get AMP LIKE Tones from FRFR Speakers
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Here's a pretty simple way to adjust your presets so that they consistently sound pretty decent through FRFR/PA type speakers...
1:44 What's up with this then
2:52 Why tweaking for FRFR is a GREAT IDEA
3:30 What I personally prefer
4:03 Remember to set up how you ACTUALLY play
5:05 Tinny sounds?
7:05 Get it sounding good here, and you'll be fine
7:48 No High Cut
7:55 With High Cut at 4khz
8:23 Don't be shy
8:55 What can we do with that AC30 tone
10:39 My Own Presets
12:25 Closing thoughts - it's easier than I expected?
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The best advice is often very simple. I used to do everything via headphones, thinking that was "close enough". Picked up a Headrush FRFR-108 as my personal monitor and it changed everything on my Stomp XL for the better.
Hello! At the Beginning I also set a low and high cut in the Cab Block with my Helix LT and the Headrush FRFR! But I get the better Result if I set a low and high cut Block as a Filter at the beginning of the signal chain! With Clean sound it is inactive and with Rhythm. / Lead the low cut between 80Hz and 120Hz, high cut between 5800Hz and 10000Hz! Depending on the Amp and Cab! Almost at the end of the chain a low and a high shelf! Only the high shelf should be boosted by 0.5 db at 2200Hz! Try it out 😉
OMG thank you! After watching this quick vid and playing around w my low and high cuts, and a bit of mic positioning, my patches never sounded so good!
Rehearsal tonight was such a pleasure.
That build in / build out of the solo was super good, John!
I already use low pass and high pass filters but using them in the cab instead of loading a separate pedal for that is really useful, thanks!
Kemper main right out to house, main left to Boss Katana Artist MKII tilted back facing me. Get the feedback and tube feel from guitar. It works amazingly well. Stereo as well but a little wide. Only have to use one in ear to bring in everyone else with a touch of my guitar from house. Large church stage (consistent each week)... Happy with my rig!
Great problem solving video! Thanks John
I use a Headrush FRFR-112 at band practice and for the occasional multi-band gig with someone else's PA. My Helix sounds fine with no tweaking but I do use the low and high cuts on the cab block at 100 and 6K (sometimes as low as 4K) for all my presets whether running direct or using the FRFR. I think the 12" speaker in the FRFR also helps it sound like a regular guitar amp. Don't forget about the massive difference your mic choice and position for the cab block can make on your tone.
Great tips! As others have said, I've been using hi cut on amp sims for some time. Also try a hi cut notch as it can preserve some of the desirable hi freqs while taming the fizz.
Always great info and play! Thank you!
Sounds great, thanks for the helpful advice!
For a few years I used the low pass filter on the cab blocks to get rid of the fizz on certain models - like you did here. But I always felt I was sacrificing a bit of articulation and "air". I found that, on the Helix at least, the fizz is always centered at 4100Hz. I began putting a parametric EQ set to that frequency at the end of each chain. Depending on the amp model I was using, I would need to adjust the Q and the amount of cut, but I like the results a little better than just a low-pass.
EV PXM-12MPs are the first FRFR-type setup I've really liked. I like that they have some tonal control right on the monitors too.
Fletcher-Munson effect: the louder a source gets, the more pronounced the highs are perceived.
Absolutely!
Worth adding that hi and lo cuts in speaker blocks act differently than in EQ blocks.
I appreciate that your solution works great for your legato for you but for many of us it loses too much high mids/low trebles. The EQ blocks have a much steeper slope and allow a de-fizz without too much incursion into the kind of top end that a guitar cab would put out.
FWIW I always have a parametric block with hi cut at 7kHz (as well as a lo cut at 90Hz). At home on studio monitors I bypass it. At volume at a gig, on it goes. Fletcher Munson curve does the rest.
BTW Rangemaster into a clean amp? Ouch!
My Low Cut can be from 90 to around 106 Hz ( or a touch more ).
My hi cut averages from about 5, to 5.6 or even 7 kHz.
I do boost and cut around 560 Hz.(All a Jason Sadites chain that really works ! )
And I have a soft compressor at the end, with the option of another as a 'pedal' at the start.
Thanks
Great 👍 advice here and great playing 🎸!! I just ventured into frfr. I love the stereo but like you said speakers let many frequencies come through that amps do not. I'm finding it is more difficult to dial in on a speaker. Start with cabs, if anyone using the boss stuff cut at global and with a PEQ is a lifesaver. I do feel the HX stuff is a bit easier to dial out high and low end just my experience. But once you do get it right the sound I believe is actually better
That‘s really helpful! Thanks a lot!
Re Setting the EQ is the way to go. I have replaced the stock speaker in a Boss Katana MK1 with a Clestion F12-200 and reset the amp EQ. This is a now dual input i.e use the aux in small jack for the Helix. Main input for normal amp use.
Some FRFR units give you the option to disable the high frequency tweeter, leaving only the full sized speaker that more closely resembles a typical 10” to 12” speaker. My FRFR speaker seems to have more low end compared to headphones out or FOH, so I have to reduce the bass on mine instead
Much needed video...
I was just crying about my tones from last fridays gig with those FRFR speakers… 😭🙏
When you compare a diagram of the frequency response of an amp speaker compared to an FR speaker it's a rounded curve compared to a more straight line that drops off on the very ends. For that reason the amp speaker is going to shape and color every single model tone you're putting through it and accenting the midranges more than the ends of the spectrum. That's why the FR speakers sound brighter because they're giving you the full spectrum. I can see why some players would be used to that rounded sound and prefer it but it's not as accurate. I guess it's whatever you want and prefer.
I have a morningstar mc8 controlled all strymon board (compadre -> sunset -> deco v2 -> iridium -> brig -> cloudburst -> flint v2) and I run that into a 600 watt behringer keyboard amp and it works great, gives me an amp in the room feel and is very transparent, can't even tell much of difference when using my my in-ears (64 audio A6)
I've always adjusted my Kemper (in the past) or my Tonex through studio monitors that have been adjusted to flat response in my room. Its not perfect, but it gets close for most PAs I've gone through. I typically just have to adjust my high and low pass filters.
Adding a hi-cut to the cab block was a game-changer for me. I used to be a critic of modelers - for their 'ice-picky' top end - until I did this. Critics of modeling should try this before they render their final judgement.
Great video.
Yes, especially with single coil pickups.
First thing I do on a modeller is find global EQ & put a bass cut & hi cut in. It's subtle at those frequencies but just sounds smoother.
Agree. I just switched to frfr and had it sounding great in my house then I went to my show turned up and holy highs. I dialed the room I. And got through the show but ya now I know to use the high cut and low cut
do you think this would apply also for the Iridium? there's the eq for the IRs but you need the computer editor to tweek it 😢
Hi, there is no way for someone with a normal European bank card to buy your presets.
Correct?
Thanks John,
I'm 2 gigs deep with a tonex direct to pa monitored with aer compact 60... Very toppy so far and have been rolling back the highs... Not enough it seems
I plug in my modellers into the power amp in of my Katana 100 Mk2 without the cabs or IRs... It just works so damn good.. No unnecessary fiddling with all those high and low cuts..
No cab in the modeler???
I use Katana also...but keep the cabs on....sounds fine.
@@mikerichardson2177 nope.. two cabs (one in the modeller and another of katana) sound muffled to me..
One the bests ways to use a modeller. I had a Katana and it sounds great
The plastic bodies on the FRFRs create the boomy bass laden tones. I think going for wood cabinet FRFRs might help quite a bit to get a more organic guitar tone. I think Atomic's CLR FRFR speaker in like that. Slap high cut, low cut, and perhaps 1 or 2 dB bump around 2k would be my suggestion.
HELP...!
Can i use this speaker box with a spark amp 40...?
The spark cabinet is not good...
Can I use it with a boss gx100? What's the name or model of this amp?
Just set the global high cut and low cut in the helix? I forgot why you prefer to do it in the cab block
What is de difference between GTR>HELIX> FOH PA and GTR > HELIX > FRFR monitor > FOH PA in sound, I mean both the FOH and the monitor are FRFR ? Would a bigger size FRFR monitor be better for guitar, like a 12" or 2x12" ?
So make your patch dark? The opposite of recording?
JNC you've touched I my forever challenge. I dial in a great signal chain and amp model on my HX Stomp using my audio interface, computer, and studio monitors. Only to get it to the FOH sound system where it sounds like crap. I have considered an FRFR, but I have so much wrapped up in previous amp equipment I question do I really need one. But if it would help me dial in a more realistic FOH tone, that would be worth it.
I've gotten used to dialing in tones on my Line 6 Powercab in a way that translates to FOH as well. It helps to do some quick spot checks at significant volume to get a sense for how things will translate when turned up. That workflow has proven more consistent than headphones, studio monitors, etc.
Here is the Unknown K line model guitar. Great video. on youtube it sounds like the guitar is in a TUNNEL, could that be to much reverb effect?? If I was in the Front of House and heard this I would tell the Guitarists to shut down any reverbs, I had a friends band about 10 years ago playing a weird narrow long Club and they were in a back corner and raised in the air, they had to shut down all the reverbs, the Club had it's own natural Reverb affect, sound was bouncing off all the walls, it was just a weird GIG.
Running my Helix LT through the headrush 108 Mark II I'm not getting any tinny hissy sounds even before tweaking the presets
Have you tried the speakers from Celestion made for modeling?
With an AXE-FX into Atomic CLRs I found a cut at 3700 hz and rolling off the highs above 4500 hz works well to reduce fizz for high gain
Atomics are the best I have a pair ! Simply stunning !
I had a Yorkville Y100W Wedge laying around and tried using that after it didn't work well with my Vdrums. With the QC though it sounds better than I'd argue my tube amps. It's loaded with a 15" Speaker and it punches you like a proper tube amp.
I hadn't tried any other amps so I still have nothing to compare it to, (I haven't bothered to try the QC with my EVHiii 50w or the PRS MT15) but like the video says it does what I want it to. The warmth and punch is unbelievable. And used they are below 200. I paid $125.
What impulse responses are you using?
One of the things I do on all my Helix patches is have a path that splits off right at the end of the chain, and goes into a mono EQ block. This is what I use for FRFR, and the main signal path continues to the main outputs in stereo. This allows me to slightly tweak the EQ curve for my FRFR to better match that of FOH.
You have global EQ for that purpose and it is assignable to chosen outputs.
@@zbyszekolko3998 only applies to either 1/4", XLR, or both. I want it on Send 1 because I want to monitor a mono signal, while sending stereo to FOH. Is there a way to mono the 1/4" but not the XLR?
@@NedJeffery As far as I remember both pairs can be independently set to mono by connecting appropriate plug to the left socket.
@@zbyszekolko3998 Hmmmmm. I'll give that a go. Thanks.
is it really worth the extra expense of buying FRFR speakers when you can just plug into the loop?
I cut the cab block highs at 4k point something, and then the cab lows at 110hz to 130hz… and then I make my global eq roughly look like a Celestion Vintage 30 frequency response chart. Sounds weird but it miraculously worked great for me.
Thanks John, even though I understood only 50% of what you were talking about 🤪
Hi gain tones
7:20 no cut
7:43 6k hi cut
7:55 4k hi cut
8:24 3k hi cut
Ac30
8:55 5k hi cut
9:10 2.5k hi cut
9:22 2.5k hi cut, mic pos change
9:30 2.5k, mic pos, bass boost
10:07 final adjust
Presets
10:52
11:28
11:53
If you have to adjust your tone significantly for an FRFR speaker, wouldn't that suggest that your FRFR speaker is not, in fact, flat response as it claims? I know my headphones and studio monitors are flat - what gives?
I've tried looking up the specs on the real world speaker and seeing where they plotted the cutoffs and tried to emulate that on the cab. Example: Celestion Blue claims 75-5000Hz. Makes sense to start there. WDYT?
The thing is, the speaker cab is already just a static IR of a real speaker, so it's not like they're not accurate to the actual response of the speakers - BUT it happens to work out pretty nicely that high cutting down to around 5khz can really smooth off the tinny stuff anyway!
My rationale for sims is no tube amps to lug around, or fail along with the sound quality and diversity of sound. So far I’m happy-
The light bulb moment for me early on with the Helix was understanding that if you look up real speaker specs, they usually range between 70hz and 80hz on the low to around 5khz - so anything over on either end - especially on the high end - isn't what you would experience out of a real world speaker anyways, ergo the lack of "realism."
From trying to get a decent sound out of a head rush 108, I agree with the need to make a high cut but I am left with a boxiness (that I dont get with a Powercab for example) and I hear that same boxiness in this video, but not in your usual recordings. Did you hear that boxy character in the room? Do you know any fixes ?
I hated the 108. Good luck w that thing. Too me it’s just bad. I really wanted the portability.
The fix is to get the 112 😂
Seriously though, the 108 is an 8” speaker in a small plastic housing. I think it sounds great within that context, but you can’t escape some physical realities.
Can you get away with putting a tweaked EQ as a global setting?
I think I'd find this video more helpful if John were to concetrate on the clean tones. My thinking is that if the clean tones are good, then the distorted tones will take care of themselves. Admittedly, I myself never use distorted sounds on a guitar - for me it's clean sounds all the way.
From my POV as a pianist often having to play electric piano through a PA, I am all to frequently disappointed with the quaity of sound I'm getting. That's in part because a lot of PA speakers/amps are geared for either rock bands, or dance music, etc - where the 'smiley face' type EQ is the default position - in other words, loads of bass, loads of high treble, and bog all in the middle.
Moreover, most electric pianos themselves have a harsh and brittle sound - maybe designed to 'cut through the mix' in a rock band.
The only elecric pianos I've come across where there is a warmer, nicer tone are the Yamaha MODX8 and the Yamaha DGX-670.
I'm fussy about tone on guitar and piano - I tune, restore and voice acoustic pianos for a living, so I hve a very good idea as to what and what does not consitute a good tone.
I wonder if much the same is true of many types of rig for electric guitar? Is it the case that everything is geared to producing a very trebbly, harsh sound which 'cuts through the mix' but is offensively bright tonally?
I have a Quad Cortex and I've never tried it on a tube amp. Can the QC be used with a tube amp? Would I have to remove the amp model from the settings and just use the QC's effects alone?
Best way is to either run it into the front of your amp as normal and just use the Cortex as a pedal board with no amp or cab modeling. OR you can run out of the QC and into the return of your effects loop if your amp has one. This bypasses the preamp of your tube amp which generates a lot of the tone in your amp (the other big tone generator is the speaker in your cab obviously) and just uses the power amp to send your signal to the cab. You'd be able to use amp models then and change the sound of your amp a bit, but you'd want to make sure you disable any cab emulation.
I go in front of a Princeton
What amps are people using that they have FX returns?
Maybe it's just my taste in amps, but I've never owned a tube amp that had an FX return.
It's a modern thing, and likely gonna be a pcb amp, so if you're a vintage purist you won't find many tube amps with an effects loop before the 80s
Is that k-line new? Kind of strat, kind of offsett?
Has a Toronado vibe!
Why do you keep associating fizz with digital? Is plexi or jcm800 digital? Because they are fizzy as f***.
What's FR FR ?
I’m a bit of a nerd, so i check the frequency range of the real speaker then match it in the cab block.
Doesn’t it feel like line 6 sho I’ll d have done that part themselves?
@@Newnodrogbobthis is the main thing an IR or any speaker simulation does.
If you’re adding filters in the cab block you’re just doubling up
@@89ji76 I mean, “just doubling up” makes it sound like it’s some insignificant thing, but it has a pretty profound effect. I will admit that the latest cab updates in the helix don’t generally need a high cut applied. Or at least not as badly as their earlier versions
@@Newnodrogbob it definitely makes a significant difference, but it’s not making it more accurate to the original speaker’s frequency range
@@89ji76 I’m totally on board with the idea that guitar players are superstitious weirdos who easily believe things that aren’t true. When hundreds upon hundreds of players all say that the modeler sounds like it’s supposed to except for excessive spiky high end, when compared to the original amps…I’m inclined to believe something is flawed in the cab sim-or elsewhere in the chain. Line 6 seemed to agree, since they created a bunch of improved cab sims.
Hi John ! Long time fan of your HELIX videos.
I use a HELIX with a HEADRUSH FRFR 1x12" speaker and love using stereo blocks, but the problem, is as I only have one speaker blasting at me, the stereo effects are summed to mono.
I build all my presets with mono blocks to make sure the tone coming out of the FRFR is the tone that comes out of the PA, but it's quite frustrating as stereo reverbs and delays sound soooooo much better imo.
Any tips on that ?
When I use stereo blocks, I know it sounds better in front but it ends up sounding "weird" coming out of the HEADRUSH.
Love your stuff, thanks John, have a great end of summer !
Purchase another frfr or I have a smaller mixer. I run my helix into the mixer pan the channels then I take a balanced 1/4" out of the headphones out jack into the frfr.
I suspect part of what you are perceiving as a problem, is actually modelling that is mostly destined for recording or performance with a band. Therefore the models are shedding lower frequencies that a sound guy or recording engineer would be shelving anyway to make more room in the mix. At home, musicians are looking for the fullest tone possible and often set amps to push put a lot of low frequency mush that in a mix, just creates clutter and lack of clarity.
Having tried the frfr route with a Modeller switching between headphones and frfr cab was an utterly frustrating eq tweaking exercise between the two.
I sold all that gear and went back to an amp and pedal board.
Do you set your amp settings through headphones when using an amp?
I hav had 2 different FRFR speakers and didn't like any of them.
You’ve always said that tbh
The likes of Metallica, Megadeth, Shinedown, and Def Leppard all use modelers live. How do they set up to sound so fantastic?
Drip jam this video
Helix is hypersensitive to what you monitor it thru. So whatever you tweak it thru will be different than any given FOH. I tweaked my presets thru the band’s p.a. and it’s vastly different than my in ears and my DAW at home. Hell, it’s vastly different going thru the xlr’s in my interface vs usb. So it’s all a freakin crapshoot. Even with the powercab. These issues are the big negative of digital. And they ain’t going away anytime soon.
There's a recent video by Matthew Dale called "Don't let this kill your tone" on XLR vs TRS, you might find interesting.
Gosh, why doesn’t my little plastic box with an 8” speaker sound like a Marshall 4x12 cabinet? I can’t imagine. It’s a sonic mystery.
Comment
I resisted an FRFR and use a PA cab similar to our FOH top cabs. This means what I hear is pretty damn close to what the audience hears.
Secondly, I do not understand why anyone wants a modeller to sound like an amp. If that's what you want, use an amp.
I thought the point was that a modeller sounds like the guitar does on an album i.e. what the guitar amp sounds like when it's miced up and put through a mixing desk with all the reverb and delay etc. For me that has been the game changer. Rather than having a 100 watt Marshall running through a 4x12 which I cannot run flat out because no sound engineer will allow it, I have a Boss GT1000 that sounds like I have 100 watt Marshall running flat out but at a volume I can stand in front of.
Great video and I think there is a need for more of actual gigging tips with modlers. I have know about high cuts for awhile, I always thought below 6 k was extreme but perhaps not. I have an FM9 and I haven't been able to get it where I want it yet. An FM 9 video like this one would be appreciated. Thanks !
Trying to get a modeler to be like playing an amp in the room, is like trying to say a picture represents what our eyes really saw when looking at a beautiful sunset. The camera = the microphone... what our eyes see = what our ears hear. We use microphones to try and capture the sound of a guitar amp and put it to "tape." The microphones are not as complex as our ears... and each microphone "hears" the source differently and from a limited perspective. When using the full capabilites of a modeler, they intend to model the sound of an amp mic'd up in a studio and playing back from studio monitors like one would do when recording etc. To try and take that sound the modeler is providing you and complain it is not like the amp in the room would be like saying what I hear from these studio monitors isn't what it feels like when I stand next to my amp in the live room. Exactly. So why try and make one be the other? If you want a modeler to feel like the "amp in the room" stop using FRFR, buy a real guitar cab with a guitar speaker, turn off all the cab modeling in the modeler... run it through a power amp, and play it like an amp. in. the. room. As for what you send the FOH, send them the full, unaltered, end-to-end modeled tone (preamp, poweramp, cabinet, microphone) so they have as many frequencies to work with as possible just as you would do in a recording environment. We tend to do the wrong things to our tone when listening to the sound by itself, and are often counter-intuitive actions to what is needed for a mix. Just a thought after using everything under the sun gear-wise, and trying all this out myself as well. I'll wait for the day when the microphone section of the modelers start to have "The Human Ear" option. :)
My experience of having to rely on monitors to hear myself is as varied with real amps as it is with modellers.
I have had a great tone out my amp, but had it far back on stage and been told to turn it down so quiet that I have to rely on the stage monitor, and it comes back sounding like shit. Because a hastily placed 57 and a vocal monitor is capable of ruining any great tone
@@tonedowneyep. Same here. A sound guy throwing a 57 on your amp in a hurry is gonna be a worse result than a nicely dialed in sound through high quality impulse responses.
That’s not an adequate analogy, the only difference is you don’t feel the air pressure and with active monitors you have more control and flexibility over the sound using a digital multi FX unit, using a Boss GT1000 straight into an amplifier for example, according to the manual they say this is not recommended and should be only output directly into a power amp, if you did that into an FRFR and turned it up loud you would still get the air pressure, I prefer tube power amp distortion which means a small 5 watt amp which would have to be mic’d for performance, if I were to run the Boss directly into the Amp, I would have to turn of the Amp sims and just use the FX chain which defeats the purpose of having state of art amp modelling. I don’t and don’t intend performing but digital modelling is the superior method for bedroom and small or even large studio recording not to mention the fact that apart from live performance most music you consume is recorded, so again a picture of an amp, if you want to “feel the noise” so to speak, your ears will not be thanking you in 10 years time and you won’t be able to hear all the details anyway.
1. Our eyes are stereoscopic and photographs are two-dimensional, so any photo is going to be an unconvincing substitute for being there. There’s no analogous problem for our ears, since a dimension doesn’t get removed from audio when we record it, which is what happens when we record a 3D image in a 2D photo.
2. Paraphrasing you: modellers model the sound of an amp picked up by a mic and replayed through stereo monitors. Not so. Modellers are highly configurable. All the ones I’ve played with let you turn off the mic modelling so that, in theory, what you’ll get out of your FRFR speaker will sound exactly like an amp in the room would. Even my modest Zoom G3n lets me turn off the mic modelling in its cab sims. I turn it off when I’m using an amp and I turn it on when I’m using headphones.
No disrespect. I think you know more about this stuff than I do. But a couple of the points you made seem off-base to me.
These are the facts. Took me a lot of wasted money to find that out. All because little dishonest or lame brain twerps online can’t just admit that they sold their cow for some beans.
The irony of all this
Or, simply get a tube amp 😊
Shhh, you're saying the quiet part out loud
the speakers and amps that guitar players call FRFR are far from truly flat and distortion-free at least to the standards of the Audiophile world. i have always marveled that people think a less-than-transparent playback system can copy a certain sound. the warm enjoyable high end is in part because a 10' paper cone speaker does a poor job or rolls off the high frequencies
At times your voice is very muff’led. Like speaking when in the act of sexual foreplay. Otherwise, the advice is sound.
Do you listen to Tenacious D?
I presume you mean the muffled audio when he moves down to change settings on his Helix? What you are noticing is the overhead cardioid (pattern) microphone not picking up the sound as well, which is by design.
I have a feeling you know very little about sexual foreplay.
This did not sound good to me, and is the reason I have not moved to modelers. If it doesnt sound great in the room I am not interested.