This Hidden Mechanic is Losing You Matches
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2024
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Video info accurate to game version 2.23.0.102
To clear up confusion; You simply switch back to mouse aim when you want to shoot. It’s a toggle button. This does not make aiming harder.
Clarification#2: We are also not talking about simply using keyboard inputs here - sim controls is entirely different.
I tried once to play with that controls, but I crashed almost right away. I think we need to pressure them to remove the benefit of using it
how to set up?
That also explains part of why no-one knows about it; the HOTAS crew who live in full sim controls get sniped by the mouse aim.
So basically you have to use keyboard and mouse, and toggle between the copilot mode and the unlimited control law. So you're not getting any of the stick and rudder work either; it's just "Press B to boost"
Yeah, their mixing of mouse aim and joystick controls does not seem to be working so well.
I am a bit confused here because you can stall your airplane especially props really easy with full real controls. Unless you limit the input range inside axis options I would say it is impossible to use sim controls with any kind of buttons. I guess you would need to adjust the input range for each aircraft to get the maximum out of it without stalling it continously?
I`ve tried myself making the jump to joystick and full real controls a few times and limit my axis range so am less likely to stall my aircraft while still getting used to it. However I can`t imagine ever using a mouse and joystick at the same time. Pretty much everybody will use a mouse and joystick with the same hand which is their strong hand. So you either switch between both input devices or use one in each hand?
For me the lack of situational awareness (don`t own VR or TrackIR) without mouse look was almost as difficult as loss of accuracy while using a joystick.
@@AcceptYourDeath basically, you fly normally, but when you get into a turn, you toggle full real controls, turn ahead of the guy you are fighiting, then toggle back to mouse aim
The faux documentary style was so well done. The virtual "interviews" with experts makes it feel like a Netflix mini-doc. Never thought I would say that about a WT video tho lol
If you like this kind of stuff Lookup pandramodo (spelling night be off but he does war thunder stuff)
It's been very well edited indeed ! I'm happy to be part of this expertise video 😉
AC0 vibes
So this must be how 109s can 180 magically in midair
Show em a little trick ive learned
Actually, I didn't know this trick, and I have elebenty billion air kills.
What do I think about hidden mechanics? Fuck war thunder to death. Beat gaijin with fucking tire irons. That's what I think. I signed up for an even playing field and that's not what they provide.
Or they just do a ton of snap rolls lol
@@zathary564 nice reference
god bless japanese mains dont use this
The docmentary-style editing is super nice
hi
how was playing the archer spookston?
yolo
3rd request for spookston to make a video on the PT-91 Twardy
Get out.
Me in my Ki-10 using sim controls to do funny stunts
Chad ki10 apreciator
Haha 45 degree climb
Make a Somua S35 video
@@Demonetised_ I'm not making war thunder videos anymore
Me who wants to find you for "scientific" reasons
what surprises me is that turning on sb controls while pulling as hard as possible on the elevator doesnt make them stall or go into flat spin, because that's what happens if you go full elevator in sim. I think there is something more going on other than that.
Full real control disables Instructor completely or only in SB?
@@randomguyingasmask disables it completely.
@@randomguyingasmask I m thinking at this point that probably instructor remains on while playing rb. In sb you 100% guarantee to flat spin if you try to keep full elevator in a turn
Don't lie to people, go to test flight in something like Fw190 on realistic preset with full sim control. Try to hold the S for 2 seconds in any direction (vertical or horizontal) and watch what happens. (spoiler allert) Flat spinned into the ground.
There are 4 controls in wt
Mouse aim, simulator controls with instructor limiting aoa so you don't stall, simulator controls witouth instructor but still with some arcade controls and then full real controls
I do in fact use SB controls when in very difficult situations, I do sometimes manage to get out thanks to the controls, but at equal page not... it just really depends on who activates it first
same lol
I actually noticed this issue with the a6, i felt like i could barley pull up in air rb past 900 kph but in sim i am more maneuverable, i thought it was a bug till i found out its just a advantage
I ironically stumbled upon this controls by accident lol
barely*
Thanks zoltan, now that you've shared our secrets I will have to try now 😞
Cope 💀
Skill issue
If you have to use a unfair advantage to be better than the rest, you simply don’t deserve it
I diagnose this as a different in skill level, otherwise known as a “skill issue”
@@Lenevor it was a joke
@@Lenevor I wouldn’t call using SB controls an unfair advantage. It’s a whole new skill set someone has to learn, can be done with the same peripherals needed to play the game in the first place and is open and available for any player to use.
Is using flaps an unfair advantage over someone who hasn’t learned the keybind for flaps yet? Is using MEC to get better performance/longevity out of your props an ‘unfair advantage’? I would argue no, it’s a skill/knowledge issue through and through.
Lots of people started to dabble with temporary sim controls in order to pull off cobras when the j35 was added, I never felt cheated by them.
Knew using Sim controls gave better control but the amount of an advantage it gives is insane. Great video explaining this game mechanic.
i sometimes fly with mouse aim for most of the match and when in get into that one dogfight qickly change to Realistic or Full-Real controls for a slightly better turn. The reason it works like this is because Mouse aim and Simplified both limit your input so it's not too easy to get into stalls but since Realistic doesn't have auto-stabilization but it does have automatic trimming to counter torque for prop planes, it's easier pressing the key 2 times to go from Mouse to Realistic, pull harder and when you feel like you need accuracy for the shots tap 2 times again and use mouse to aim the guns
I just wish they gave the instructor the capability to handle these inputs
@@v3es473 Keyboard flight controls set to high give you about 90% of absolute control authority. Most of the time, this exceeds what pilot of structure can stand.
Personally i have the ~ key set to cycle through controls modes, and it’s very very useful in arcade, like, you can pull comically hard on fighters like a ki-61, like, out of a dive i’ve hit 30 Gs (very briefly), which like… think about that, you could pull hard enough to turn with high-G missiles
It is also required to recover from a flat spin, the instructor seems to fight your attempts to get out of one making it nearly impossible.
@@commandoepsilon4664 ive always complained about this problem
War thunder loading tips: "you can even recover from a flat spin, watch our tutorial"
Also war thunder: doesn't let you recover if youre not in sim controls and even then basically any crit damage and it doesnt let you live anymore just to give people their free kills for crits
This can be easily fixed by limiting the control modes to the respective game modes in tourneys. SB tournaments should use SB controls, and RB/AB tournaments should use RB/AB controls. The fact that this is an issue in the first place is bad for the players and Gaijin. If streams don't get viewer turnout, Gaijin loses on making money. In turn, this causes Gaijin to shelve the tournaments side of WT rather than give it a spotlight. This means that new players, if they ever come, will be met with a massive skill gap that will also kill tournaments. It's just not a great time for anyone...
alote war thuner
Sorry to break it to you but there isn't a viewer base for competitive warthunder, just look at the twitch viewercounts for the game when there isn't a twitch drops campaign
@@emergency_broadcast_system My point is that Gaijin isn't making any motions to actually make it viewable which is just further pushing it into obscurity.
@@xAlouette
My point is, the way this game is competitively played, it will not be entertaining to watch. There is nothing they can do to make a competitive match enjoyable to watch just due to how it's designed. Camping and spawn killing isn't entertaining
They could also reduce the control limitations you have while in mouse aim, because I'm fairly certain there's a lot more limitations than just how much control authority you have. In a flat spin for example, the instructor on mouse aim (at least I'm assuming it's the instructor that does it) prevents you from doing any control at all. All the control surfaces are locked in one position and you can't do anything about it. Yet if you switch to full-real controls, you get that control back giving you a chance to try and get out the flat spin. Or rolling close to the ground can be fairly limited sometimes (I assume to prevent you from smacking a wing into the ground). Whereas in full-real, it's not as limited.
Allowing the player to disable the instructor (again, I'm just assuming that's the issue) would fix all the issues mouse aim has. But if you do disable the instructor while in mouse-aim, it automatically turns back on again when you leave the settings.
This was a great breakdown of sim controls, I've only assumed the limitation of elevators in RB were to balance the speed of the aircraft from horizontal turning or else from getting too slow in order to give players smoother gameplay. In most aircrafts Sim Controls are horrible but in some...very powerful...I can see that this would force a different approach in Tournaments or RB matches as mentioned in this video.
As a draken player, (we consistently use full-real controls in the draken for maneuvers like the cobra and just getting out of flatspins), I knew that this had this effect, but it never really occurred to me that other planes could use it to their advantage as well, its obvious now.
Something I started doing is using manual engine control.
I am essentially capable of pulling virtually infinite energy on an IL-2 in ground battles because I have the engine running on peak power generation without even remotely overheating.
Even been doing that with unspaded spitfires there too, just dunking on enemy planes whenever I feel like it with very little repurcussion whatsoever.
yea, the p39 airacobra can go on full throttle for the whole match if you open the air intakes to 100%, it literally doesnt overheat no matter how long you have it with the engine at max
I mean to me that sounds balanced. You learned about the game. You now know more than your opponents. As such you tend to win. It's not unfair because they can do it to; they just don't know how yet. Seems competitive to me.
Yep, learning manual engine controls can give you an edge on every battle.
Some planes may be used at full potential, like using prop pitch to 100% and mixture to 120% on low alt to get much more aceleration.
And some have tricks as the Bf-109 that has a prop pitch overrev brake that works better than air brakes, letting you lose speed fast, dive without gaining speed or destroy your engine.
@@viejitalocaOpen radiators increase drag so although you can increase throttle you also increase air resistance
@@earthspace8666 depends on a plane though. For example, 109s suffer quite noticeably from drag increase, but P-51s are pretty much fine.
This whole time I've been using the FRB controls in RB and FRB because I liked the direct control. I had no idea I was getting performance advantages out of it in RB.
I'm quickly running out of issues I can blame a bad game on rather than admit my skill issue.
They aren't using FRB controls, they are using the "realistic control" setting with the instructor turned off, they still use autotrim... since autotrim is disabled in SB, these aren't sim controls. This video is sort of misleading in that regard
It’s honestly crazy how different vehicles are in sim compared to there their RB counterparts, for instance everyone knows the phantoms to be this giant brick that can’t pull too much alpha or turn well at all really, but in sim I’ve found myself winning multiple engagements against mig29s and 21s. It’s just wild
It's the other way around. F-16 and MiG-29 are crazy good in sim and F-4 really feels too heavy.
That guy in MiG-29 was just bad or used standard sim controls.
@@Michael-IR yeah a mig29 should not be losing to a turn fight against an F4, definitely a skill issue on that mig29s end.
I used to think I was at a disadvantage playing against “pointer aim” on hotas
Turns out I was just taking head ons
Once I started getting into turn fights, I could tell who had their flight surfaces bound and who did not
I pretty much exclusively play sim battles, but when I do play air RB, I do notice a significant difference in performance, so much so that I have different playstyles for each gamemode. I say that sim controls should stay in sim. Possibly the mouse aim control system could be reworked so that aircraft can pull as much as they can without stalling. But from a dogfighting standpoint pulling as hard as you can all the time usually bleeds your energy really fast and if your opponent can dodge your nose in the first few turns they can end up in a much better position. It is better to conserve one's energy or turn at one's 'rate speeds' (the speed that, when sustained in a turn, allows the aircraft to complete the turning circle as fast as possible).
Yeah, that’s why I think it’s balanced as long as the aircraft that are using the full turn end up losing a lot of speed and being harder to control like most are. The problem is just that some flight models don’t make the aircraft much harder to control in Full-real or Realistic than in mouse aim or they randomize the difficulty to where slight control trimming can make the aircraft amazing or no amount of trimming can fix it.
Gaijin could fix this by making Realistic controls have a maneuverability cap that’s only somewhat less restrictive than mouse aim, and then make full-real be very good, but difficult and dangerous to use, such as easily causing spins if the person pushes the aircraft to hard with the elevators and rudders while dogfighting. Some aircraft already behave this way, so Gaijin just needs to do this for everyone.
sim controls should stay in realistic, and the realistic flight model should be closer to sim.
The main reason why is that the flight instructor gets disabled in full real controls. They should add an option to disable it in settings, and/or a key toggle. This way everyone can take advantage of it.
Wow. Someone with a brain actually made a decent suggestion instead of crying and not knowing what they talking about.
Im impressed.
it used to be a button? or am I imagining stuff?
@@pigeon7446 you gotta rebind it
@@pigeon7446 you can toggle between control modes like simple, realistic and full, but you cant only disable instructor.
@@Boris_The_Turtle thats what I mean, I remember settings where you could just turn off the different aspects of the instructor
With this and 15% Elevator trim, you can pull 12G+ in the F-16, which is locked to 9G because of the Fly by Wire coding btw.
F-16 can pull 12G without SB trickery.
What limits you is wingload induced by speed. Computer wont let you overload wings.
Once you're near the corner speed, you can pull max G without any problem and even sustain them if you're good at throttle management.
@@Real_Claudy_Focan i never said at what speeds tho.
@@Real_Claudy_Focan btw the f16 is not g limited as perennial said but it is aoa limited meaning it doesnt pull as hard as others planes, this happened with the mirage before it was released on the live server but then they removed it when it went live. But they didnt removed it from the f16......
I've played War Thunder for an obscene number of hours and somehow never knew this existed, explains quite a few situations where vastly clumsier planes could somehow handily keep up in a low speed turn with my Zero
If you are dying to anything at low speed in a zero then its your fault.
*"Doctor, turn off my flight inhibitors"*
This is why you need the simulator controls to cobra. It gives you such a tight turn up combined with pitching up that the wind drag eventually catches on
What's "to cobra"?
@@reckless20 a cobra is pitching the plane up around 90 degrees while the plane continues to move forward instead of up, this introduces a major amount of drag that slows the plane down.
this can be used if the enemy is behind you to get them in front of you.
@@reckless20 USA tank and plane named after a snake.
@@leiaorgana5098 you could as well answer "a silvester stalone film"
This is off topic but is there any way to do a cobra on a biplane? German biplanes in arcade are really maneuverable so is there a way to do it? Is it different from doing it in a jet?
There is nothing to be fixed about full real controls. They work exactly as they're supposed to. *It's the mouse aim that's broken.*
Full real controls are the "purest" and most direct form of control over the vehicle, where the vehicle behaves as close to intended as possible. It's not an exploit, it's not a bug, it's not some arbitrary mechanic. The plane was always able to pull these maneuvers off and that's how it really is supposed to behave. The issue is not with full real controls being "overpowered", but with *mouse aim being straight up garbage*. The idea behind mouse aim was not just make the plane point at the cursor, but make it easy to fly the plane using mouse+kb. If players had full control over the vehicle most of them would be flat-spinning every single maneuver with a lot of planes because they've exceeded critical AoA and stalled one of the wings out, which is unacceptable for a mainstream audience. In order combat this Gaijin had developed the Instructor, which is effectively a fly-by-wire system, part of which being the actual algorithm that tries to point the nose of your plane in the direction of the cursor, but that fly-by-wire system also has many "safety limits" where the Instructor takes over and prevents you from having full control over the vehicle, some of these safeguards you can turn off in the settings, but many others like for example AoA limiter(which is absolutely necessary to prevent people from flat-spinning themselves using mouse aim) are *ALWAYS ACTIVE* in Mouse Aim Controls(instructor fly-by-wire + mouse aim) mode and Simplified Controls(instructor fly-by-wire only). The problem here is that like many other mechanics in this game, the Instructor gets about as much attention, as a hobo who sleeps under a bridge and eats from a dumpster gets from the government, with 0 effort put in on Gaijins part to configure it properly by finding the highest stable AoA for every single plane, which ends up in great many planes having the AoA limiter is set-up so terribly low, that the plane is capable of being stable even 150% of the AoA limit in place when the Instructor is disabled(so when switching to Realistic Controls or Full Real Controls). I agree that this is a massive issue, but i have to stress that *this is an issue with how the Instructor is configured* and the fact that it is blocking you from pulling more AoA when it is absolutely safe to do so, and *NOT* an issue with full real controls. And it's not just the AoA limiter. Instructor has many other systems that also often cause problems like the famous 0.97 Mach wobble on the F-4 Phantom, complete lock-up of controls at high speed on the F-8E or the Mirage 3C basically having crippled maneuverability on release and etc.
The worst part about this is the fact that everybody is complaining and asking to fix full real controls, when there is absolutely nothing to be fixed there. Of course nothing will ever change then. If you actually want this situation to improve you have to complain about the fact that Gaijin uses a fucking random number generator to set up the Instructor for many planes, which absolutely cripples their performance in Simplified Controls and Mouse Aim Controls because *that's the real issue* here, and *if nobody starts pointing this out the things will stay exactly as they were forever.*
I hope someone actually cares enough to read this wall of text lmao
There is nothing broken or wrong with the performance of any of the control modes. The thing is there is a whole game mode dedicated to mouse joystick controls and the whole point of this discussion is that in tournaments we want to keep the control modes separate. If you want to fly in the "purest" form then you can play sim tournaments, if you want to fly with the instructor then you can play RB tournaments. As it stands RB and SB tournaments are essentially the same thing baring a few planes that don't get a huge boost in performance from full/realistic controls
@@_ytho true, locking the controls to 1 mode for competitive fairness in tournaments wouldn't hurt anyone. But the Instructor is still broken in many ways.
It was a great videa and tge edit is incredibly well done ! Thx for the interview, it's been a great moment having this conversation with you @zoltan 😉
👍
The only thing I will say about this is make it so you can't switch between sim mode and rb mode in the match. Make it so you would have to set it in the main menu/hanger, so the people that fly with hotas (and yes there are a few) can still use sim mode in rb battles. Because sim battles are super small and take a while compared to rb battles.
Well you don't need to switch any control actually. You just have to bind keys to create axis (for example i have "q-e" as yaw axis, "a-d" as roll axis and "shift-control" as pitch axis) so i can outperform other aircrafts which are the same as me without switching any mode
Also in most dogfight i use flaps so that my plane turns even more, and the majority of people doesn't use them
I have been using it for a while (even today) and things you can do with combining full realistic controlls and mouse aim is amazing. It saved me countless times from hitting the ground whike doing cas or outmanuvering enemies.
The documentary style interview threw me off guard and thought it might be a parody for a second.
Ok but it's necessary to say that the use of SB is VERY related to Tournaments only. So if you are getting beaten in random battles in duels, most likely you're just getting beaten with experience, trajectories and flap usage on fair mouse RB controls: most of unexperienced players that will try to switch to SB controls mid duel, will just end up in an uncontrollable flat /spin and lose comically.
Yup this is mostly an issue if you are in a 1v1 dogfight (with no distractions or third parties to think about) in equal machinery which rarely happens in air rb. However it gatekeeps tournament modes from people wanting to join. Also imo, it is against the spirit of playing RB if you are forced to use SB controls in it.
@@Frozander Oh yeah absolutely, but Gaijin told us is not an easy fixable thing so yeah, they don't care
@@nicolocerri6453 how is it not easy to limit controls in RB tournaments to mouse aim only? 🤨
@@nicolocerri6453 I'm a programmer and can tell you they can implement that in about a day.
They need to add 2 things:
1) Show an error popup if you have SB controls when RB mode is selected. There is something similar already: if your crew is locked you can't start a battle. The same mechanism can be used.
2) Prevent control changes while in-game. There is a mechanism for this too. There are graphics settings that don't apply until a client restart. Just tune it to require you to be in the hangar.
@@spicynoodle7419 Thanks for your explanation but we kinda knew already, that's why i said "yeah they don't care". Nobody believed them in the first place
For some added context, the issue isn't we don't like that the planes preform better with SB control but rather flying with mouse joystick is extremely boring. Because the added aoa that SB gives you, fast direction changes are much harder make ( easy to flat spin) and as such it is safer to stick to wide passive lines. What ends up happening is that most fights will devolve into rate and you fly in circles untill either you or your opponent gets board. While duels will always favour flying passive lines with or without SB controls, with mouse aim you have infinitely more opportunities to play aggressively and force interesting fights.
I really hope this does not start a crusade against Sim,
Sim game mode is the reason why I still play this game, everything just make sense in that. The BRs, the balance, features and quirks of certain vehicles.
It would be huge shame if this starts a witch hunt against Sim players. I believe Sim deserves even more attention.
"Professional casuals" don't want anything interfering with their point-and-click "skills."
War thunder sim mode is utter trash. I'd rather play an actual simulator like IL-2
They just need to differentiate what controls are available in the various modes. Which TBH are a hot mess.
I like playing ARB from first person, normally do the assaults that way , but to be competitive in RB you have to use 3rd person mouse aim.
If you want to be able to pull somewhat better without having to learn a whole new set of controls, what I do is bind my rudder up and down keys to shift and ctrl. That way when I'm in a turn and my plane is sideways you can hold down shift to make your rudder go up more thus increasing your turn rate. Now this does not seem to make you turn as much as people using sim controls but it can give you an advantage over people just using the mouse to aim.
I never knew people thought this was a problem. I've always used my mouse to aim and make small adjustments, but I figured out pretty quickly that hitting the keybind for elevator and ailerons drastically increases your ability to maneuver. I'm not certain this is the same as using full SB controls, but I'm pretty sure it is. It's never been an issue for me, just something I do when I need to maneuver harder.
That's not the issue. Keyboard to maximize inputs is teached by default in the default keybinds of the game (WASDQE are bind to full pull on each axis by default). The issue is, if you switch to SB controls pressing those keys let's you pull even more.
the keybind does nothing more than the mouse aim.
that's not at all what this video is about. They are talking about switching off the instructor and going into Simulator Battles controls. This lets you pull more elevator than what you normally can in RB controls.
Thanks for the replies, everyone, I wasn't quite sure if I understood the system right. Now I'm going to have to go into my controls and see if I want to switch things around.
Hopefully Gaijin changes this. If this video rouses enough support, maybe we can get a poll going or something to get their attention. Wouldn't be that big of change to just remove SB controls from RB game modes (though I must admit, the idea of instead simply removing the limiters in RB and letting everyone use their planes to their max would interest me. It would be a drastic change across the board, but still, might be worth looking into.
New zoltan lore video dropped.
What about manual control of the engine, its propellers, fuel, etc.? I heard that it is possible to fly more efficiently at higher altitudes with this
Yeah managing your engine you can for example use WEP
It used to be a bigger deal back when orangedoom was playing since from my experience air rb players were a lot more skilled and regularly did prop feathering or bf109 100% prop pitch airbrakes etc. in dogfight. so they aren't really needed 99% of the time since most enemies aren't that good nowadays.
@@Frozander back then everyone was a try hard. Now everyone wants to be a try hard but not put in the effort or thought and then scream skill issue when legitimate problems are brought up.
@@NFchegg I love how being considered a try hard in this game is knowing more than your enemy in a game that is literally meant to reward you for knowledge
I didnt even know there WAS an esports scene for warthunder until this video, let alone the control thing. It definitely explains a lot of suspicious fights ive had.
The man the myth the legend is back with a banger
This explains so many times I’ve been out rated by a plane I’ve thought thousands of times and I know can’t turn like that….
I need to see sim f-4ej kai vs normal rb f-4e
started using this after i saw this video a week back, and i went from a measly 4 max kills average per battle for 100 battles to a whopping 9 per battle! that is insane!!!
putting it bluntly arcade realism and sim battles should use their controls as to the mode, no point others getting an unfair advantage over others cause they have different control settings.
exactly
Its unfair even though everyone can use it?
It may not be what I'm thinking of, but I know that in one of the pilot tutorials, it gives you keybinds for yaw, roll, and pitch. Page Up and Down control pitch, and I've noticed that, when leveling off from a climb, pointing my mouse at the horizon is significantly slower than using the corresponding keybind for pitch. Mouse kinda eases you into it, but keybind forces the plane to move at 100%
Are you complaining that bikers without training wheels are getting more performance out of their bikes?
The instructor is just that, training wheels. It limits your control and hence limits a good player.
Fair point. It’s refreshing to see a different opinion on the matter. 👍
As a player who mains Air Simulator Battles (32+ days as fighter + 10 days as bomber + less than 1 week as attacker aircraft) I can confirm that the air simulator controls are much better for the controling of the planes.
On the little times I went back to RB for a modification or because of friends and I used mouse aim I can say that I felt as if the plane turned much less, not only that but envasive manuvers while flying at tree to level or bellow tree top level (so basically going cutting off the grass or flying on roads or bellow bridges) I couldn't turn at all, as the game limited me to my rudder, making me die all the time I did that.
Another problem is that when turning left or right just a little bit the instructor of the mouse aim will try to turn the aircraft with the rudder only, which will take longer to make the aircraft look in that direction and will also make it bleed a LOT of speed, especially on a climb.
Overall, this doesn't affect me much, as I am a simulator battle player, but I can relate that you shouldn't have to worry about these things as an RB player.
I will write on the comments what you need to know if you do want to change to SB controls, experience is key, but knowing this instead of learning it the hard way like I did will go a long way.
If you want to use sim controls there are a few things you need to know about.
First off, for every fighter you've got you will need to stop using the "S turning", as you will over turn your aircraft (yes, you can do that due to the better control) and you will stall your wing, so if you're turning right, your plane will turn really fast to the left. This, if left untreated for 2 seconds or 3, will result in a flat spin (if you don't know what a flat spin is, think of a helicopter spinning in place while going down in movies. It's that, but it's a plane).
I know this can also happen in mouse aim but it's a WAY bigger problem in sim. Here's what to do:
1. If you're in a prop plane, please note what direction your propeller spins in. This can be hard since you start with the engine on but it's going to be usefull. If you find yourself on a flat spin, get your joystick or mouse joystick pointing the plane to the ground, as if you want to point at it, while also giving aileron and rudder to the oposite side. This is, if you're spinning to the right, go nose down while turning left with aileron and rudder at the same time.
If you're falling right and your prop spins right, then go WEP trodle, as the plane likes to go to the left because of it (try taking off with SB controls and you will know what I mean.) If you are spinning left and your prop spins right, then go 0% trodle.
2. On a jet just do the normal stuff you'd do in a prop, that is, pull the nose down and go aileron and rudder to the oposite side of the spin. The only catch is that you want to be on WEP trodle. Jets are essier to get out of spins than props.
Note: If you are damaged you might not be able to leave the spin if you're assymetrical. So keep that in mind.
Secondly, each plane has a different reaction, so some turn more than others at different speeds. For example, an I 16 will flat spin very fast if you turn all the way with the stick, as the wing will stall faster. On the other hand, a zero won't unless it's damaged or it's at stall speed.
If you're in cockpit view, you can hear the wind and can see the plane shacking, telling you that for that plane at that speed you are about to wing stall, so basically, at the limit of the capabilities of the plane at that moment.
I do not know other than knowing the plane how you can see or hear those on 3rd person but on first person it's eassy to see when you're turning a little too hard.
One thing I want to add is that, if you wing stall and you know it and apply aileron and rudder to the oposite side of the very fast turn immediatly, you will still turn to the oposite side, but you won't turn upside down nor will you flat spin.
On the exiting of a flat spin, if you pull up too fast the moment you get out of it, you will re-enter it, so keep some speed up before pulling up hard or just pull up more carefuly.
These two comments are the basics, you will be able to do turns and if something happens you will know what to do. Hope I helped.
I’ve had an unfair advantage my entire WT career and I never knew it.
Like I get that it’s for viewer engagement but it’s really not an issue. Planes are meant to be flown with control of each individual control surface and mouse aim doesn’t do that and it makes it quite unintuitive for anyone who knows the first thing about planes.
@@thisisaduck You probably didn't get it. The tournaments are done in RB so you are expected to use mouse and keyboard in RB controls. But players swap to "full real controls" and game let's you pull harder despite using the exact same input. It has no skill gap or intented use in RB. It just makes it so that people are forced to play with SB controls in RB matches if they do not want to lose instantly.
@@Frozander so you’re saying that you can have full real controls but still using mouse aim?
@@Frozander I usually switch between mouse aim, simplified, realistic and full real by pressing R shift in that order. They all work with wasd but the further along you go the more control you get. Only mouse aim doesn’t use the mouse for looking around.
Ah, so that’s how Trigger flies backwards.. Hey, Mobius-
This has been an issue for years now. Gaijin alredy adressed the issue by saying that they will continue to allow SB controls, they don't care and it will never change
love your use of crew zoom ins
This whole video feels like someone trying to enter a bicycle race with the training wheels on and complaining that other competitors have superhuman abilities, and demanding that they also put their training wheels on.
Is it really just now that RB players are realizing that the AI flying their plane for them isn't really very good at it? The reason why the instructor is so limited in terms of how much AoA it can pull is because it doesn't really know how to fly, it just kind of manhandles the plane with a very simple set of instructions. It can do certain things very well, like maintain stability and point the guns at a certain direction very accurately. But the instructor has no idea how to do something like stall recovery, much less spin recovery. So it's designed for stall prevention instead, and that means there's going to be a safety margin in terms of how much AoA the bot is allowed to pull. Another safety margin comes from preventing G-overloads at high speeds.
Additionally, in very slow flight the instructor-bot has some extra help in the form of small, difficult to notice "phantom forces" that are used to stabilize the aircraft because, again, the instructor doesn't know how to fly and couldn't recover the plane if it went into a spin.
If you want to test this, you can fly vertical or near-vertical climbs with a single engine prop plane at full power, first with instructor enabled, then with full real controls (instructor disabled) and check at what airspeed the aircraft can no longer maintain control over pitch, roll, or yaw axis. You'll probably notice that as the speed decreases with full real controls, you have to continuously increase the control inputs until speed goes low enough that the plane simply can't maintain its attitude and either the nose starts to drop or the wings no longer stay level (engine torque starts to make the plane roll around its longitudinal axis).
With instructor the plane will maintain stability practically down to zero airspeed, even with engine on full power. This isn't just a difference between the instructor being able to "stabilize" the plane so that the nose keeps pointing up. It means that the instructor can produce control forces that are not possible on full real controls.
What this means in practice is that for example pulling accurate shots during the apex of vertical climbs is possible with instructor, but much more challenging or downright impossible with the instructor disabled, because at low speed the control authority simply ceases to exist - unless you have the instructor to help with that.
It is also kind of funny to hear people talk like controlling the aircraft with full real controls is a simple matter that any "noob" can do and automatically make the plane have "perfect turn rate". This is a bit of a weird statement, because first of all if we're talking about just turning as hard as possible, that means going right to the edge of stall and riding that AoA until you bleed all your energy. That is how you do a full performance turn, and you need to practice quite a lot to be able to consistently do that with full real controls without going into a stall, or letting an incipient stall develop into a full stall or spin.
Secondly, if the comment meant achieving perfect sustained turn rate (which seems to have been the context of the video playing on the background), you don't usually need full elevator authority to get best sustained turn rate. That has much more to do with knowing the best turn rate (for a given configuration and weight) and then maintaining that speed throughout the turn with engine at full power. The instructor is generally able to do this quite well, so two-circle fights are not ideal; the advantages you get with full real controls are more applicable to one-circle fights where the plane with higher instantaneous turn rate at low speeds will generally have the advantage.
Finally - if this is considered to be something that no one in RB tournament community likes, but everyone has to use it to be competitive... don't you think that reflects more on how bad the RB controls are, rather than how supposedly OP full real controls are?
I get the point that in a competitive setting it might be difficult to explain to viewers why the gameplay looks completely different from what they're used to with the instructor. I could even understand the argument that there might be need for a different competition category for mouse aim + instructor only, and "open mode" where everything goes. But outside of tournaments, RB in general can be played with mouse+instructor, or with virtual joystick with or without instructor, or with a real joystick with or without instructor. Would you then also argue that Gaijin should force instructor on in RB simply because that's what most players use?
I would argue that e-sports is supposed to showcase the excellence of players, and objectively speaking being able to use full real controls to actually good effect generally requires more "skill" than just using mouse aim with instructor. For a given definition of skill, anyway.
Sim controls are not really a problem in Air Rb because it's not really advantageous outside of a few niche situations...and usually if you have put yourself in a position where you need to use them you have probably made a mistake in the first place.
The issue with Sim controls is that they give a huge advantage in 1 vs 1 tournaments because using them will increase the turn rate on a lot of planes; especially Bf.109's. It means that the only thing a player that is using SB controls against someone who is using normal RB controls has to do is hold a lag turn and they are favored to win the duel. There are some ways of working around it but the actual counter-play against someone who forces a rate fighting line is basically non-existent for some planes.
It undermines the whole "Realistic" nature of the RB tournament and it makes the entire skill set of recognizing trajectories and energy states far less relevant when you know your opponent turns 10-15 percent worse than you do and that if you just keep turning in the same direction you will end up directly behind him for an easy shot that you can switch back to mouse aim for.
@@squishface80085 But the control mode doesn't define RB as a game mode. It can be played with mouse aim + instructor, or with joystick + instructor, or with joystick and no instructor (i.e. "full real controls").
Just because most people play RB with mouse aim + instructor doesn't mean that's the "definitive" way to play it.
It could of course be possible to split RB tournaments into different categories based on control method limitations. Make one category that has forced mouse aim + instructor enabled, and another where you can use whatever control mode you wish. The problem of this would be that there is no such split in game modes in War Thunder, and it would undoubtedly be even more confusing for prospective viewers.
Frankly speaking I think this is a non-issue and should be resolved by RB tournament players adapting to the situation and learning to use the controls in a way that fits the circumstances the best. If full-real controls really give such an advantage and are so easy to use that any noob can gain an unfair advantage with them... then that means everyone can use them to gain exactly the same advantage, at which point it stops being either unfair or an advantage.
And if the larger mass of RB players realizes that their performance is being limited by the instructor... well, maybe that could motivate them to learn to use full real controls too. Maybe even start flying SB where this kind of thing is not an issue...
@@HerraTohtori
Have you played in any RB tournaments? Have you tried to fight someone who is using sim controls while you are using mouse aim?
The people that play tournaments don't like it not because they don't know how to use it...they don't like it because it completely changes the dynamics of the duel into fights that are basically never ending symmetrical turns at ground level and having to use SB controls to be competitive means that most RB players will not even be interested in the game mode.
@@squishface80085 No, I play exclusively SB with rare exceptions for when achieving some in-game task is only possible in RB (like the warbond tasks for example).
I would ask this question, though: If using full real controls basically just leads to never ending symmetrical turns at ground level... how is that different from what happens with mouse aim and instructor?
I mean, tournament duels are by definition just BFM in similar aircraft (or ACM if it's 2v2 or more planes involved). With similar planes, neither one has any unique advantages or disadvantages. If both sides have the planes flown by the same AI (the instructor) then both planes have the same performance. So if both pilots make optimal tactical decisions, most of the time the result will be a symmetrical two-circle fight with neither side able to gain an advantage.
But if the pilots on both side have to manually fly their planes (i.e. with full real controls), now you're introducing a factor of pilot performance and piloting errors into the game.
@@HerraTohtori
That is something that is only true in theory and the key difference is that most of the time that someone is using sim controls in an RB duel their goal is to force the fight into flat turning on the deck.
When players use RB controls only then the number of options and counters that players is more varied and managing the trajectory and the energy state of the plane ends up mattering a lot more. There is a whole attack and counter attack cycle that takes place in RB duels that doesn't really happen in SB duels.
However countering someone who is using RB controls is basically achieved by keeping your maneuvering in-plane with the other player because you will almost always be able to exceed their turn rate.
When both players are forced to use simulator controls a lot of that verticality and stall control goes out the window and it means the most viable strategy ends up playing very passive lines. There ends up being a lot less back and forth because the control set-up means that the optimal strategy ends up being more or less the same.
I figured this mechanic the first day I was playing when I noticed that my turning time was way slower than what was said in the planes specs in game.
Huh.........this video explained a lots of my deads to a plain i know that cannot unturned me and suddedly they did. Likewhen i play Ariete jet. I know i can unturn pretty much 99% of the jets there and that 1% will keep up with me for few turn. Then i get killed by jets that cannot out turn me at all suddedly they did.
This is very relatable, now I have a lot of weird lost dogfights explained.
This is definitely not the reason why youre losing fights in the Ariete.
I’ve been playing with sim controls in RB since I picked up WT because I came from games like X-Plane and MSFlightsim. I have a HOTAS and peddles set up already that I’m used to using for flight games. I have noticed a lot of aircraft in WT turn better and knew about this problem already. I just never realised that it was such an issue that it was killing the tournament scene.
The real issue stems from the “instructor” which for lack of a better term is more of a catch all fly-by-wire. It intentionally limits your aircraft so that it’s much more difficult to stall out or lose control. It also makes every aircraft easy to fly. I can assure you that a bunch of the planes in WT aren’t very easy to fly with full real controls. Take the FW-190D13. That thing loves to have a single wing stall out during a turn and I feel more like I’m fighting it than flying it when I take it out.
You also have to remember that just because you can pull more aoa than your opponent, it might not always be wise. You can bleed a lot of speed doing it and you might just stall out or lose so much speed that you’re at a disadvantage and wind up losing. It’s not an issue once you learn what to do, but it’s something frustrating that you have to learn earlier on. Energy management is still key. An example of this is the Ar-234 C3. It can pull a decent amount of aoa and absolutely turns better with full real controls, but by god will it bleed speed fast if you don’t watch your energy.
Simple, just lock players into one control set for the tournament, done.
damn, simulator control in the I-15 is fire
I use sim controls every day :) I'm shocked more players don't use them. They're RIGHT THERE. Just use them.. Yeah they're a pain to use but it's not hard to figure it out.
They are not fun for people who do not want to play sim and shouldn't be allowed in realistic battles.
@@Frozander they come with the risk of allowing you to do "unsafe" things in return, it's almost impossible to get most planes in a flatspin with mouse aim, but with full controlls it can absolutely happen if you aren't careful.
@@erzbengelraziel5490 not the point. This forces people to use SB controls in RB game mode if they want to have even slightest chance to win.
the appeal of wt is the mouse control
@@Frozander It doesn't force anything. The only situation where it matters is tournament duels, everywhere else the advantages are almost entirely irrelevant or offset by the downsides. In any case, it's ultimately just an additional skill that raises the ceiling a bit, not something that guarantees victory simply by turning it on.
Elite Dangerous has a similar mechanic; "Flight Assist On" flying (which makes your spaceship fly more like an airplane; it automatically corrects your delta-v to match your heading) effectively "uses up" some of your maximum turn rates compared to Flight Assist Off.
In that game at least, I don't really see a problem with it. There are tradeoffs between the flight schemes (it's borderline impossible to line up your aim and other 'fine-tuning' shit in FA-off as the assist will do it), and based on what you're pinned comment about people swapping back and forth indicates, a similar paradigm is true in WT.
So that’s how WW1 biplane outmaneuvers a spitfire……
I mostly play Realistic with mouse aim and have found that knowing when to cut your throttle and use combat flaps, as well as a simple understanding of combat maneuvers will help you in most battles against most players.
I’m also aware of the limitations. I’ve seen a TH-camr do more than I ever thought was possible with helicopters using a VR headset, rudder pedals, a joystick, and a helicopter yoke.
Meanwhile I can’t maneuver too well in anything other than the AH-1. Any other heli and I have to snipe outside of AAA distance with 6km-9km range ATGM’s
Thanks man. You could kind of say this about so many things in War thunder. The tutorials are grossly inadequate. War Thunder has always been the kind of sink or swim game, and patch to patch there are little wrinkles everyone gravitates towards until they patch it and it fucks up something else. Unless someone makes a fucking video on it, or posts on the forums which most people are scared of because it isn't worth the hassle, then 99% of the playerbase are left behind until word spreads. People will only take losing so much. That or they run out of money, and just don't log in anymore.
Maybe you could post more of these to help players. But it won't fix the inherent games problems that never really have been addressed. The player base is the QA department and to report issues is to lose your advantage. That or simply miswording something that upsets people, which often don't even speak the same language, much less regional tone understandings, can make posts disappear. They don't even let you know if a report was denied or submitted, it can take a long while, and by then hard to tell what changes have occurred.
They ship things out with super complicated nuanced controls, and are like here have fun, meanwhile you find out it wasn't done, or done right, and your job is to cope. lol
The reason I came back to this is because in Defyns latest video it features a 109 player doing insane snaprolls and what seems like lag manipulation and I am sure there is something to it, like a hotkey macro or something, IDK. Or maybe I am just a malding potato that doesn't understand mechanics. I mean yeah that is why I ask. It is why I constantly watch war thunder videos to try to help me make sense of what is going on on the screen.
I have been playing this game for almost 10 years now. I am 45 years old.
ESports ready was a fucking meme people said because of how shitty things were in the game, but then they made a tourney with the name, unironically.
Oh and I am sure a lot of ragers will comment on this as always happens any time I ask questions or suspect exploits. Get Gud and all that. Basically the people that are in the know gatekeeping. lol
I remember binding a control switch button to be able to quickly switch to sim controls just to pull controlled flat spin reversals
Makes a lot of sense when I can't turn or pull out of a dive bomb sometimes even looking straight up.
I’ve known about this for so long, just started practicing recently. Upset that more people are gonna know but I’m happy it’s finally getting press
That would explain the two times I was outurned in a plane I knew I could put turn my enemy.
I don't remember what happened exactly, but I recall both times was I had a plane I very well knew I could out maneuver the enemy I was fighting, but somehow they got on my six and the first time I was shot down, with the second time being saved by an ally, but having to limp home. I honestly thought I was doing something wrong.
„When u think of air RB u think of someone using mouse aim“
Pretty much no, i think of someone using either their keyboard or an joystick
mouse aim is keyboard lol, they're complementary
Nice video that is spreading awareness for that issue! I was amused how some WT videos that wanna talk about hidden features of WT (iceberg), never mention SB controls.
this video did remind me about something I had actually forgotten, duel tournaments. Why ask people on discord to duel me, when I can do tournament duels and get rewarded for it. Thanks Zoltan!
Huh, that, explains a whole lot actually. There have been times I've noticed individual players could somehow magically maneuver so much more aggressively than others using the same plane
Me using SB controls + manual engine controls on a b25 to just casually drift midair
2:52 I did this back when the game was in beta lol
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I played Wings Of Prey with a stick
And played WT with other Sim players
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We quickly found out pressing S pulls harder
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We just used it an arcade RB to unlock more plains
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Never knew it was THAT big of an advantage
this explains why theres that one guy sitting at our spawn out turning everyone and finishes the game with 21 kills and 0 deaths
Never new it formally existed, but quickly realized that I could pull tighter maneuvers on joystick. Never really thought to combo the 2 until now. Used to use joystick for ground pounding and mouse aim in the air.
I don't play War Thunder (yet) but I did start on flight simulators in 1991 with a game called Fighter Duel (for Amiga). The graphics were the most basic you can imagine but the flight model was very realistic. You had to have an analog joystick and even with auto rudder it was tough to learn. I cannot recall the number of times I stalled out and crashed or got shot down. Later I moved on to Combat Flight Simulator both of which have excellent manuals combined with good training missions. Currently there great flying tutorials on TH-cam including some training films from WWII so don't despair all is not lost.
I knew about this mechanic and had a keybind to switch to it, but I only used it when I wanted a small constant pull, like when a wing falls off, I would switch to this and balance out my aircraft if possible. I then tested this out with the Saab 35FS in test flight and with the new flight model you need realistic or full real controls to pull a cobra and/or kulbit.
To quote Vegeta, "you have reawakened the evil in my heart" >:)
this explains so fucking much for when i should have been out rolling and out turning my oponents
I really liked the documentary type video, hope to see more!
When I started playing WT I used only usb joystick, just binded controls through the wizard after first opening amd right into the battle. After few years on another computer I tried mouse, never before have I shot down so many planes, finally I could do more than kamikaze in P26 with free repairs. The joystick has better maneuverability but I can't aim with it. For some time I used mouse for battles and stick for casual test flights in newest premium vehicles. Best would be a combination of both, so, what you do is set a key for changing instructor setting, that way you can switch between simulator and arcade control settings that way you can fly with a stick and if you get on someone's six just switch to fine aiming with mouse. (I am not sure if it still works, haven't tried in some time)
Ive started WT vr, and with a hotus ive noticed that i can way out perform mouse players. My plane just flys how i want and is not restricted. I can roll faster, turn better, and all around i fly better.
Played for 750 hours, usually in Air RB because its honestly the only game mode that I enjoy, I had 0 clue about this. It's utterly insane how this is allowed. I'm fine with sim joystick being allowed more control, but that shouldn't apply to maximums in such an easy way to spot as an advantage. Thank you so much for bringing this to light because honestly,t he only way to get it fixed is by speaking about it
I always thought it was perfect flap control or smthing. This explains so much
Tbh SP control also add the issue of overpulling the fins which can turn into air break, another note is prop torque is untrimmed in sp the moment you turn it on, which means at your own risk if you do this it will torque pull you into a spin.
I have a key bind setup to switch to realistic controls. I’ve primarily only used it when I get myself into flat spins because normal mouse aim makes it impossible to get out of a flat spin. Not saying you’re going up get out of it every time, but if you’re plane still has control surfaces intact, isn’t badly damaged, and you have sufficient altitude, you should be able to get out of it. Power Idle, ailerons neutral, elevator down (nose down), and opposite rudder.
Had no idea it actually provided better handling characteristics.
Well that explains why I keep messing up kills that shouldn't have gotten away, and why I keep getting shot down so much by certain players in planes that should not be winning the fight.
This explains a lot. I've been playing war thunder for about a year now. I've always wondered why planes of similar BR turn so much sharper. I had a dog fight with someone and it was extremely obvious. It was like they just put on the brake.
As someone who uses only Simulator controls for all game modes and has used them for at least 2 years, I find it absolutely ridiculous that people complain about it being better in 1 aspect of War Thunder despite mouse aim being better in every other way.
There's a reason nobody uses Simulator controls regularly in air RB, and that is because it is much less competitive.
-You can't reliably frontal attack as well as with mouse aim.
-You don't get autotrim for any props and early jets.
-Flying in 3rd person with Sim controls is awkward and harder to aim.
-Since sim controls work better in cockpit view, you have to also sacrifice your visible and audible situational awareness which is super important for War Thunder.
-Mouse Aim and Instructor allow you to be more accurate at farther ranges and for longer bursts. You realistically can not be as accurate with Simulator controls unless you have amazingly accurate and smooth hardware as well as being an amazing pilot.
The most extreme measure that should be taken is restricting changing of controls, but still allowing people to use Simulator controls if that's what they que up with. I have a feeling that isn't enough for some people, and it isn't a great solution because if a mouse aimer comes up against someone with simulator controls, they will want to switch to simulator controls, and not being able to may present a problem.
I think the best solution is to make sim controls more accessible and easier to use with a mouse and keyboard as well as making it easier to switch back and forth to and from simulator controls and mouse aim. That way, everyone can have a fun and competitive time, and simulator will be more accessible to those without hardware.
i use joystick and for 1vs1 it has clear advantage so don't cope here that you suck and realistic controls have a disadvantage cause they clearly dont
@@Oberschutzee Do you think a control scheme having an advantage over other control schemes in certain combat situations means it should be nerfed or removed?
@@BruceLeeroy94 I would like if they make arb only simple controlls and no realistic but that will never happen
@@OberschutzeeMaybe for the tournament only, but sim is too dead to restrict sim players from the rest of the game.
I've only used full real in order to do a quick manuever to get out of someone's guns, not throughout an entire dogfight. I've used it to do a baby cobra in the F-8 crusader, ive used it in the Mig-21 to force the nose around with the rudder, and ive used it in the draken to take advantage of the recent buff it got regarding full real flight.
There’s no way people don’t know this lmao. Now wait until the majority of the playerbase finally figures out that you can use stadiametric rangefinding to instantly know the distance of a tank at any range
Don't they literally have sights to download that have these
For Arcade, if you turn off instructor, then you can have a way easier time capping airfields in Airfield Domination.
Ohhh.... So that's why that 109 outturned my spitfire
I tend to use key bindings for max elevator deflection. Works like a charm
This is a great video, well done highlighting this
I remember my first tournament experience:
9th of May series of tournaments, Yak-3 RB duels. I've flown over a thousand battles in Yak-3, practiced it in duels with some experienced folks I knew back then.
I join my first match, and it's a fucking WingA SB-controller. He literally outturned me in the 2nd turn from the very start.
That was also my last tournament experience.
Yak3 is one of the planes where the advantage of SB is alot less then in for example 109. So my guess would have been that the WingA player just had a better opening/trajectory
So this is how a Fokke Wulf was able to outturn my Spitfire? hmm
I do sb controls whenever I'm being followed by a plane in my fw190 to flat spin quickly and get behind them
Warthunder: How to make a game where every single mechanic ultimately serves monetisation
since i got a flight joystick i saw that planes do maneuvres they couldn't before, the event tornado for example will do a cobra easely durring take off if you aren't cautious
I remember a 109 pilot putting in the best fight ever, what I thought of an easy kill in my Corsair turned out to be one of the hardest dogfight I've had, and I came out on top. I always thought of this kind of pilot as the elite of the game, even in a plane that's disadvantaged fighting at the very best of his capacity, but now I really think he just had sim controls... It kinda breaks me
You don't need sb controls to do that to a corsair in a 109, the fact you won almost certainly confirms he wasn't
i really have to disagree, in a dogfight the corsair definitely wins
I've been waiting for your video!