MiGan Fox-3's Channel: www.youtube.com/@MiGanFox3 Multipath Mechanics Video: th-cam.com/video/QlCncwR1LJo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=niFpCXHyMcbmc7hz Editing was a bit rushed because I wanted to get this vid out before the holidays where I won't be able to edit. Also I asked around and apparently some of the stuff I found from testing like the chaffless notch was obvious to some people... I'm curious to know what yall knew and didnt know about.
In your experience what is a sign you notched correctly? I try to look for when it stops reacting to me. that could however be the wrong solution but the right answer
@a_catfish5180 I'm not sure if there are guaranteed ways of knowing. If at long range, you can look to see if the missile moves slightly behind 90 on the rwr as you notch, but that could just be your relative position changing. Even if the rwr is pinging you there's also no guarantee that the missile is actually looking at you specifically, it could be in track or search. I think at long ranges, you can be assured that if you did notch then it likely won't hit you soon so hopefully you can get out of the rwr ping area eventually. (Basically the answer is I'm not 100 sure other than watching the missile go by or the "missile evasion" text)
@@CatWerfer relative position or not, if i find that the missiles that are fired from long ranges happen to have slightly moved further down the side of my rwr, i usually take that as a sign that notching has cause the missile to change its heading, and even if i am still being pinged on the rwr i will still pull towards re-engaging whoever fired it. i usually see/hear it whiz past me but i dont really know how close i am cutting it, but i find it often safe to do so for the usual 30km+ missiles at the start of each round as they probably just ran out of energy at this point xd
@@CatWerfer the missile has to lead pursuit to track a target which leads to it slipping behind slightly, as the radar is chasing and side eying the aircraft as it closes. So this can mean the missile is shifting location on you in some way or the other, which generally in most cases means it's either getting slow and falling behind or it's getting closer to you
It explains a lot. Tws in narrow mode while flying supersonic is how I get the best results. I never turn radar off until the missile connects..... derbys are really effective especially within 9 miles on a head on or slightly off bore. Data link is boss.
@xWizardxRF Actually, nothing. I'm, in fact, part of it. I just wanted to appreciate the author and his work. He did a better job explaining notching than most russian content creators. No offense to anyone
Dude this has been so helpful. The over 90° notch works like a charm ,as well as the burst chaffing. The "breadcrumb" thing you explained makes SO much sense. Really good guide here. And mentioning MiGan Fox is a class act shoutout. Both of you are very articulate and structured. Keep it up!
Yes, that is a good explanation for why 90 degrees doesn’t work when the missile is close. Also, the reason chaff is more effective at close range is because the FOV is the missile seeker means that at a distance if you chaff and the missile tries to require you you may still be in the cone, while if it’s close your angular velocity is greater and you may be well outside it’s FOV in a much shorter timeframe.
You clearly put a ton of effort into this and it shows. I especially like that you figured out the AoA and drift with those close range notches, meaning your velocity vector isn't the same as your AoA. Usually people falsely conclude that notching is actually more than 90 degrees as that's what the RWR says, forgetting that it's the velocity vector that matters not your plane's orientation Going to share on my channel, love this video 👍
@MiGanFox3 Thanks! You did say you were also going to make an updated notching vid in the new year so ill be looking forward to your take and perhaps more practical advice too since I didn't really give that much practical in-game scenario advice
@@CatWerfer Yeah this video is so good I don't see the point of doing something similar 🤣 Was going to bake some in game examples in my Rafale video next week for a start
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't. In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was. The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
The explanation of why you seem to need greater than a 90° angle to defeat ARH at close range makes a lot of sense. Another factor is that the missile is leading you, so at close range you have to compensate for that if you're trying to defeat it visually (which you did kinda allude to as is!) Pretty good video, learned a lot from it. Nice to see the Migan shoutout too bc I've been learning a lot from their videos too. But clearly the takeaway is that i should be using teleportation more to defeat missiles :)
Nice vid, didnt knew ARH had different search/lock modes. Knowing that its basic SRC when looking up makes things easier. Also for anyone wanting to detect an early launch, if you have a really good radar and you're in TWS on a target, you can see the moment the guy launches one as there will be 2 signatures and one will have higher speed. You can do a 180 and it will pretty much be defeated just by energy alone.
Woah so the velocity vector turns out is alot more important than i previously thought not notching enough def is the culprit in alot of my deaths then 😂 thank you for the info this means deploying flaps also helps alot in lower speeds cus it pushes the velocity vector alot closer to the crossair cus more lift etc
This guide proved some of my speculations on how missiles worked in this game. Really well put together and explains it well. Gonna show this to all my friends who play with me so I don't have to lecture them how to notch a missile anymore.
The notch angle with the velocity vector and the breadcrumbing definitely were the reasons why i couldn't notch most of the time i got killed. Thank you very much
As a player who primarily fights with knowledge, and has done extensive amounts of code digging and in game testing, you've still taught me multiple very valuable things I didn't know myself. Thats some damn good work you put in.
Subscribed, this was amazing, good job. Basically my understanding is that Fox3s are very hard to defeat, unless you're above them and can chaff, though leaving you vulnerable because air is thinner and missiles have more energy. Flying low at the beginning of the match can be beneficial because realistically no one could maintain a datalink track on you because they would be defending the 20 missiles launched at them, but after that I would say that climbing is safer also from a situational awareness point of view.
Better guide than any other videos I've watched legit. Short and concise and most importantly, down to earth. Now I understand why I was chaffing yet still always getting hit by the missile. Thank you
Thank you so much about this very informative vid. I didn’t know why chaff changes missile’s mode to IOG or TRK to chaff differently. Now I got answer it’s altitude.
I'm 1 minute into the video now, and I already want to leave a comment on the statement about doing everything right and still getting slammed by Fox-3 missiles. When they were introduced, notching them was really easy. I remember turning 90-100 degrees away from R-77s, Derbys, R-Darters, AMRAAMs, and MICAs in their no-escape zone, even 5 km away from the enemy jet, and still being able to defeat them with ease. I spent two weeks playing top-tier Air RB when Seek & Destroy was released, maintaining around a 3 K/D ratio in every Fox-3 slinger I had, but eventually got bored and dropped air battles to play my preferred game mode: Ground RB. Then, two months later, during some farming event, I came back and realized that sometimes I couldn't hit anyone at all with 120s and RB 99s, even when they were flying straight at me and not even trying to perform a 3-9 maneuver. Meanwhile, dodging enemy missiles myself had become nearly impossible unless I went cold or used terrain and multipathing. They must've changed something in the core mechanics, but it almost feels like I'm the only one who noticed. To be fair, it's not surprising, considering how most of the player base didn't even notice when chaff was ineffective against pulse radars for about a week back in August.
they've definitely gotten harder to notch and chaff, inertial guidance has become a much bigger factor. i mean they just made them even harder to chaff 2 days ago lol with the angle gating changes
Nice, I figured bursts were working better but was too lazy to test and find out why. There was a phenomena in the earlier fox 3 era where turning away from a target you are guiding a missile with tws datalink would steer the missile away from the target. I've been shutting my radar off after pitbull ever since but I'm not sure it's still happening.
datalink is quite strong, its probably best to give it a try again. you can catch a lot of people off guard if you are free to hold the lock until impact
At 14:50, you talked about how you need to over-correct for the missile's tracking.. However! one piece of information you may have forgot to mention was IOG, (inertial optical guidance) the missile's radar as you can see is attempting to reacquire it's tgt after having lost it, but the missile's frame while waiting, is still moving towards the last known predicted flight path of the tgt. Still, really good points on the velocity of AOA of the aircraft.
Another way to survive these fox 3 is to launch a missile against the missiles and just fly in a straight line (so that you missiles intercepts the enemies one), this can be ir, sarh or even arh. Very useful when used under 5km launches. Also you can corkscrew/barrel roll sparrows, sky flashes and Matra 530 easily
@@toast1172barreling sparrows works consistently still, you just need to take a wider roll because the sparrows don’t roll and pull at the same time well so it struggles to follow you
@@CatWerfer you have to have a decent speed and start doing that when the missile just comes under 2km distance, take a bigger one and maybe drop a chaff or 2, try them today
Slowing down is not adviseable with a missile tracking an area behind you. Also, the aspect angle of the missile matters a lot when calculating the notch, thats why you get unreliable notches. Also yes, keeping your aoa and drift limited is just a part of flying, so its nit really a tactic. You want to be gentle so you can get accurate rwr return information. Also, you want to maneuver to get the missile in an unfavorable position. If youre gonna notch, the best plan is to get the missile in plane, co altitude, hit the notch and adjust altitude while chaffing to shift the modes and overload the processing. Also, a missile that has to climb 10k feet, then dive 10k feet, then climb 10k feet again will not be able to track through the atmosphere. The plane has a lot of gas, the missile doesnt. Also keeping the missile coaltitude and in plane reduces the amount of variables in calculating the notch meaning its easier to just hit the 90°, drift to match the guidance of the missile to stay in the notch, then dropping chaff as itll loose speed and become visible to the missile which will give you some time. The more chaff the missile has to track through via "breadcrumbing" the more time youll have to make a serious change of parameters to get yourself out of the reacquisition window of the missile, which is why its "better to use in short clusters" Just some extra tips from a friendly neighborhood sim player.
The aoa drift is moreso relevant when trying to notch at very close ranges, in headons under 5km, where you need to pull as hard as possible to evade the missile in time, which is why I mention it in that section
I dont really play air because of massive skill issue but these videos are still really interesting to watch. also lol at using teleportation to defeat fox-3s
@@DLizardd I kid you not i had to play for 4 hours just for the game to give me city once, even though the day before when I wasn't recording the game gave it to me like 6 times jn a row it was really frustrating lol
No wonder when I fly top tier after 12/19, I find notching perfectly 90 degree and chaffing still does not defeat missile. Then I checked all replays of my failed defense, and found out that missile went on IOG + DL all time and in very close range the missile just pit-bulls me. However in BVR, when my RWR pings msl incoming, if I constantly let the missile be at my approximately 3-4 o’clock position and change my flight path necessarily(vertically and horizontally plus constantly enter-leave notch), burst chaff when missile coming close, it almost 100% defeats the missile. My finding is surprisingly similar to the method from your video.
finally someone with working brain cells explain the mechanics without" jUsT NoTCh bRUH" I hope you continue making these kind of video and if possible with ir missiles. i hope gaijin make a training mode where you chose the enemy and its armament like arh missile so you can train with defending strategies
This is an excellent explanation, well researched and gives me a huge sanity boost after feeling like chaff and notch felt so inconsistent. Thank you! It's what I've been hoping for for years. I have one big question left from this video; how exactly should chaff bursts be deployed? You said three chaff in a burst, but do you spam them out as close to each other as possible, or give them some small amount of spacing during the burst? I never know if I should be providing a slightly spaced train of chaff in a burst (a wider field to be caught on) or if I should be aiming to create a big SUPERCHAFF cloud that's on top of each other (making one gigantic radar signature trap).
I think 3 normal caliber chaff at a time in one spot all together is probably fine, maybe a bit more if you're using bol pods. I also think that spacing them 3 seconds apart or so should prevent breadcrumbing. A lot of my results were inconsistent still, but that seemed to work the best
I've used 'teleportation' for a while in Sim. However, most often than not, the aircraft that launched the missile is following closely behind and I have to dogfight him or just die.
I fly high (usually 5k, just below the white trails altitude). my issue is not so much the notching itself (or maybe it is?), but knowing when its OK to go back. my RWR keeps beeping untill the missile actually passes me most times. so in typical RB, ill spend so much time avoiding a couple of missiles, until my RWR stops beeping, that its usually too late to do anything in the battle.
@theoescamez6230 yeah, that's hard to tell for me too. Sometimes I'm lucky and the rwr goes silent but other times it keeps screaming even if the missiles been defeated. Most times I just hope I've done it right, though it's not always true
I found if the rwr ping is shifted to away from you once you reengage the missile is typically defeated. But yeah they really got to short out rwr warnings
Thanks for the video my guy but I still don't get what I'm supposed to do against a full team of FOX-3's with my 2 R-27ERs, 4 R-60M's and grand total of 60 countermeasures.
I thought newer radars use pd and normal radar simultaneously, making chaff less effective when tracking towards the sky. In general it seems like, flares, chaff and notching are overperforming for gameplay purposes. Newer missles are reportedly near-impossible to defeat at closer ranges, yet in WT you can do so quite reliably
yeah, i wouldnt mind if they overperformed a bit more, its better for gameplay for defensive options to be easier than offensive options, otherwise you just get suicide missions
TH-camrs: Turn perpendicular and chaff... yada yada yada Me: Turn completely the **** around, piss chaff like a drunk uncle, runaway like a crying kid, and act like I'm being chased by a pitbull back when I was in the 4th grade til the beeping stops. Works at least 95% of the time.
@spookygulag9342 27sm and the Flankers did get a flight model buff recently so now would be the time to try them out (if you can survive the typhoon spam)
I have gotten pretty decent with dodging missiles now but the issue is top tier, or close to top tier where I am (12.7) is boring. Every match ends in 3 to 4 minutes and since the F-16A doesn't have radar missiles, I am just forced into a loop of dodging without ever being able to retaliate at all.
@@CatWerfer I know, I was so excited to get it that I didn't realize it didn't have any radar missiles at all. The f-16A ADF is foldered under it. Exact same BR, same loadouts, same model, it just get's radar missiles. It's an extra 200k RP to unlock it afterwards so at that point I just decided to go for the F-15.
Issue with top tier for me 14.0. As much as i love it you still have people trying to abuse the multipathing system. Which means they are typically just running head first down the centre of the map to base bomb or ir sling. Thats one of the contributing factors to why games at top tier end so fast. If people flew a little higher and didnt just fly head first into the missile (abusing multipathing) games could last quite a while. I
@@phantomraptor8851 I still feel like the maps are too small, and the objectives are too clumped together so it just forces everyone to converge at one point in the map basically. That and the spotting system means that even if you tried to flank around, the second you get spotted for the enemy team you just become a massive red target for Fox-3 missiles.
CatWerfer and MiGan, best example of "bro, u dont need 100k subs to create good and educational content, tbh, a good paint drawing is more useful than fancy 3D animation(s)" Please do not fall down the rabbit hole of creating lots of (trashy and unnecessary) content to fit the yt algorithm. do it by quality, i know its not the easy route.
@@CatWerfer depends on your core audience, and what you are aiming for. my guess, if u wanna grow fast, buying guides will get u new players/subs fairly quickly. but i (for example) do not fit into this category, i would be interested in "new" released airframes (techtree, squadrons, premiums). and this video ("Notching Mechanics Explained | How to Evade Top Tier Fox-3s") attracts players who are already in top tier, so have expierence in this game (and therefore they know which planes are worth it). i am not a creator, but my route would be: first, stick to the expierenced players with in-depth tech content first, to attract and retain them. be a reliable source for changes in game(-machanics), tips and tricks etc. (u will not grow that fast, but you can retain your core audience). if you have a baseline of reliable subs ("the experienced players") and consistently returning viewers, it will fit the YT algorithm better than getting lots of new subs fast, but without them returning frequently ("the new players wanna know the best premium to buy"). keywords: "viewtime" and "returning subs/viewers". but i think a mix of both can also suit your channel and give you growth while retaining your current audience.
My advice would be: focus on this type of content until you have 10k subs (for example) with your core audience, then get more experimental with broader content to attract other potential audiences. Lets look at other CC's: Defyn: Does reviews on planes with gameplay and does buying guides. many like his personallity combined with his black humour and editing style (e.g. the funny "i never die" cut-scenes). MatAWG: Is more like a newspaper with a lot of content. He is more of a journalist than gameplay guy, he pumps out more videos than I can watch. But if u want news about the game, he is a reliable and up-to-date source. These 2 examples of CC's are very different and although they both do WT Air content, they are like black and white. You have to differentiate yourself from others and not copy them to get your own signature (editing style, personality, humour, topics etc.).
the radar will still lock you if you go cold. If you go from going hot to cold then it may break the lock since there's a point in time where you'll be notching but if you're just going cold and running away, then the missile will still see you.
@CatWerfer Then it's specified as SRC CW if I remember correctly, if it's just SRC then it's pulse mode. Don't get me wrong, I love the video, I just think "Non-Pulse Doppler mode" implies that it's Doppler without Pulse, which is rather poor wording.
This may be a stupid question but am I supposed to notch the missile or the plane that fired the missile ? Some rwr show the missile on it and also the plane that locks
You need to notch the plane radar if it's a semi active missile like the aim7sparrow or r27er, and the missile radar if it's a fox3. You may have to try to notch both if the missile also has data link, tho that's much harder to do
How would you recommend defending against a launch when youre high, around 30k feet etc, and your opponent is also higher, but still looking down on you?
@itzzzdolphin since the missile will still be above you id follow the "target below missile" stuff and try to defeat the inertial guidance with chaff if necessary. Its a bit tough to turn at that altitude but we still gotta try
Was taking out Gripen A yesterday to stock grind and I can confirm notching missiles that are above doesn’t need chaff However your asshole will pucker because it can get pretty close especially if you’re blacked out
@a_catfish5180 it is certainly much more fun to play once you unlock chaff but hopefully this gets you through the first few games you need to play to unlock it 😉
Wasn't multipath 60m? is it really 50m? I didn't get the part about notching but DL causing the missile to still hit you. I thought DL worked even if you lost the lock or turned cold but turned back to hot and require the lock.
multipathing starts at 60m but is not fully effective unless below 50m, check out the more detailed explanation i give in the pinned comment. I tested it and if the plane loses lock then you can't regain datalink. The missile can lose lock but the plane's radar needs to hold it continuously if you want datalink to apply
not a big fan of angle gating, making chaffing harder will result in ARH spam being worse to handle and even more people doing multipath as a low effort solution
@thcfck6870 some people just get more of a kick out of realism that the sacrifices in actual game design are worth it for them. Tbh idk if anyone is particularly happy with the gameplay loop at top tier right now, there are a lot of things they could improve that would make the game more realistic and fun at the same time, like adding new and interesting air to ground objectives
Signal processing + good algorithms and you have good kinetic connection. Also, why are you being a traitor by flying a Chicom plane they begged the Israelis to help them make?
The algorithms used by fox3s are not 1to1 with reality, I've heard that missiles in look up mode would actually just turn their notch filter off and stay in pd mode to ignore chaff. Either way it's a game so gotta know how it's implemented here. Idk what chico planes are
MiGan Fox-3's Channel: www.youtube.com/@MiGanFox3
Multipath Mechanics Video: th-cam.com/video/QlCncwR1LJo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=niFpCXHyMcbmc7hz
Editing was a bit rushed because I wanted to get this vid out before the holidays where I won't be able to edit.
Also I asked around and apparently some of the stuff I found from testing like the chaffless notch was obvious to some people...
I'm curious to know what yall knew and didnt know about.
In your experience what is a sign you notched correctly?
I try to look for when it stops reacting to me. that could however be the wrong solution but the right answer
@a_catfish5180 I'm not sure if there are guaranteed ways of knowing. If at long range, you can look to see if the missile moves slightly behind 90 on the rwr as you notch, but that could just be your relative position changing. Even if the rwr is pinging you there's also no guarantee that the missile is actually looking at you specifically, it could be in track or search. I think at long ranges, you can be assured that if you did notch then it likely won't hit you soon so hopefully you can get out of the rwr ping area eventually. (Basically the answer is I'm not 100 sure other than watching the missile go by or the "missile evasion" text)
@@CatWerfer relative position or not, if i find that the missiles that are fired from long ranges happen to have slightly moved further down the side of my rwr, i usually take that as a sign that notching has cause the missile to change its heading, and even if i am still being pinged on the rwr i will still pull towards re-engaging whoever fired it. i usually see/hear it whiz past me but i dont really know how close i am cutting it, but i find it often safe to do so for the usual 30km+ missiles at the start of each round as they probably just ran out of energy at this point xd
@@CatWerfer the missile has to lead pursuit to track a target which leads to it slipping behind slightly, as the radar is chasing and side eying the aircraft as it closes. So this can mean the missile is shifting location on you in some way or the other, which generally in most cases means it's either getting slow and falling behind or it's getting closer to you
Man, this "little guide" is more informative than any 20-30 minute long videos about notching that was made in russian part of WT community!
It explains a lot. Tws in narrow mode while flying supersonic is how I get the best results. I never turn radar off until the missile connects..... derbys are really effective especially within 9 miles on a head on or slightly off bore. Data link is boss.
What "russian part of WT" did to you?
@xWizardxRF Actually, nothing. I'm, in fact, part of it. I just wanted to appreciate the author and his work. He did a better job explaining notching than most russian content creators. No offense to anyone
@@JAMirageIII Yeah you right, there is nothing like that
The flanker at the start was foul for using so much missiles in 1 go
@vdop9007 he did get me in the end lol, I respect it more than spamraam
@CatWerfer agreed. But if I'm in a loosing streak and that happened to me il need to buy a new monitor
If you are 1v1 it's the best way to kill. Can't shoot at you if they're defending.
@@CatWerfer How so? Its russian.
@@bluenightfury4365 the russians arent particularly meta at top tier, especially right now with the typhoons
Dude this has been so helpful. The over 90° notch works like a charm ,as well as the burst chaffing. The "breadcrumb" thing you explained makes SO much sense. Really good guide here. And mentioning MiGan Fox is a class act shoutout. Both of you are very articulate and structured. Keep it up!
Yes, that is a good explanation for why 90 degrees doesn’t work when the missile is close.
Also, the reason chaff is more effective at close range is because the FOV is the missile seeker means that at a distance if you chaff and the missile tries to require you you may still be in the cone, while if it’s close your angular velocity is greater and you may be well outside it’s FOV in a much shorter timeframe.
You clearly put a ton of effort into this and it shows. I especially like that you figured out the AoA and drift with those close range notches, meaning your velocity vector isn't the same as your AoA. Usually people falsely conclude that notching is actually more than 90 degrees as that's what the RWR says, forgetting that it's the velocity vector that matters not your plane's orientation
Going to share on my channel, love this video 👍
@MiGanFox3 Thanks! You did say you were also going to make an updated notching vid in the new year so ill be looking forward to your take and perhaps more practical advice too since I didn't really give that much practical in-game scenario advice
@@CatWerfer Yeah this video is so good I don't see the point of doing something similar 🤣 Was going to bake some in game examples in my Rafale video next week for a start
@MiGanFox3 well I look forward to them either way :)
The missile knows where it is at all times. It knows this because it knows where it isn't. By subtracting where it is from where it isn't, or where it isn't from where it is (whichever is greater), it obtains a difference, or deviation. The guidance subsystem uses deviations to generate corrective commands to drive the missile from a position where it is to a position where it isn't, and arriving at a position where it wasn't, it now is. Consequently, the position where it is, is now the position that it wasn't, and it follows that the position that it was, is now the position that it isn't.
In the event that the position that it is in is not the position that it wasn't, the system has acquired a variation, the variation being the difference between where the missile is, and where it wasn't. If variation is considered to be a significant factor, it too may be corrected by the GEA. However, the missile must also know where it was.
The missile guidance computer scenario works as follows. Because a variation has modified some of the information the missile has obtained, it is not sure just where it is. However, it is sure where it isn't, within reason, and it knows where it was. It now subtracts where it should be from where it wasn't, or vice-versa, and by differentiating this from the algebraic sum of where it shouldn't be, and where it was, it is able to obtain the deviation and its variation, which is called error.
@@exozetplsbuff yep, this explicitly is about missiles equipped with inertial guidance
The explanation of why you seem to need greater than a 90° angle to defeat ARH at close range makes a lot of sense. Another factor is that the missile is leading you, so at close range you have to compensate for that if you're trying to defeat it visually (which you did kinda allude to as is!)
Pretty good video, learned a lot from it. Nice to see the Migan shoutout too bc I've been learning a lot from their videos too. But clearly the takeaway is that i should be using teleportation more to defeat missiles :)
@_ace_defective_ uses zero chaff, its like stealth but better!
(Thanks for the supportive words)
Finally, now I know how to notch with my p39
@brockjab p39 has bigger number than f15, j10, mig29, su27 so it must be better lol
@@CatWerfer fr
boeing 737 enters the chat
@joaoguin FedEx plane with the anti missile laser system when?
@@brockjab until someone shoots a heatseeker 💀
Nice vid, didnt knew ARH had different search/lock modes. Knowing that its basic SRC when looking up makes things easier.
Also for anyone wanting to detect an early launch, if you have a really good radar and you're in TWS on a target, you can see the moment the guy launches one as there will be 2 signatures and one will have higher speed. You can do a 180 and it will pretty much be defeated just by energy alone.
Woah so the velocity vector turns out is alot more important than i previously thought not notching enough def is the culprit in alot of my deaths then 😂 thank you for the info this means deploying flaps also helps alot in lower speeds cus it pushes the velocity vector alot closer to the crossair cus more lift etc
@whydoievenbothertoputthish2199 yeah, i die a lot to not slowing down and GLOC ing before I get into the notch lol
This guide proved some of my speculations on how missiles worked in this game. Really well put together and explains it well. Gonna show this to all my friends who play with me so I don't have to lecture them how to notch a missile anymore.
lol i figured it'd be easier to make a video than to explain it each time to my friends too
@@CatWerfer The visual depictions are 👌, really great for room temp iq mates who refuse to listen
The notch angle with the velocity vector and the breadcrumbing definitely were the reasons why i couldn't notch most of the time i got killed.
Thank you very much
As a player who primarily fights with knowledge, and has done extensive amounts of code digging and in game testing, you've still taught me multiple very valuable things I didn't know myself. Thats some damn good work you put in.
Subscribed, this was amazing, good job. Basically my understanding is that Fox3s are very hard to defeat, unless you're above them and can chaff, though leaving you vulnerable because air is thinner and missiles have more energy. Flying low at the beginning of the match can be beneficial because realistically no one could maintain a datalink track on you because they would be defending the 20 missiles launched at them, but after that I would say that climbing is safer also from a situational awareness point of view.
Better guide than any other videos I've watched legit. Short and concise and most importantly, down to earth. Now I understand why I was chaffing yet still always getting hit by the missile. Thank you
glad i could help! i was also losing braincells so i decided to lose a few more by testing this stuff
Take my like. You earned it
Thank you so much about this very informative vid. I didn’t know why chaff changes missile’s mode to IOG or TRK to chaff differently. Now I got answer it’s altitude.
Amazing guide 🎉🎉🎉
I'm 1 minute into the video now, and I already want to leave a comment on the statement about doing everything right and still getting slammed by Fox-3 missiles. When they were introduced, notching them was really easy. I remember turning 90-100 degrees away from R-77s, Derbys, R-Darters, AMRAAMs, and MICAs in their no-escape zone, even 5 km away from the enemy jet, and still being able to defeat them with ease.
I spent two weeks playing top-tier Air RB when Seek & Destroy was released, maintaining around a 3 K/D ratio in every Fox-3 slinger I had, but eventually got bored and dropped air battles to play my preferred game mode: Ground RB. Then, two months later, during some farming event, I came back and realized that sometimes I couldn't hit anyone at all with 120s and RB 99s, even when they were flying straight at me and not even trying to perform a 3-9 maneuver. Meanwhile, dodging enemy missiles myself had become nearly impossible unless I went cold or used terrain and multipathing.
They must've changed something in the core mechanics, but it almost feels like I'm the only one who noticed. To be fair, it's not surprising, considering how most of the player base didn't even notice when chaff was ineffective against pulse radars for about a week back in August.
they've definitely gotten harder to notch and chaff, inertial guidance has become a much bigger factor.
i mean they just made them even harder to chaff 2 days ago lol with the angle gating changes
#1 notcher
the notchiest, some would say
I liked when he said, "it's notching time" and then notched all over the place.
strange weeb pfp
Nice, I figured bursts were working better but was too lazy to test and find out why. There was a phenomena in the earlier fox 3 era where turning away from a target you are guiding a missile with tws datalink would steer the missile away from the target. I've been shutting my radar off after pitbull ever since but I'm not sure it's still happening.
datalink is quite strong, its probably best to give it a try again. you can catch a lot of people off guard if you are free to hold the lock until impact
Awesome guide, thanks a lot.
Also, great background music (LRSSG briefing theme goes hard
ace combat 7 goes hard with the music, i would say that it gets overused in youtube videos but there's a reason its so popular, its just that good
At 14:50, you talked about how you need to over-correct for the missile's tracking.. However! one piece of information you may have forgot to mention was IOG, (inertial optical guidance) the missile's radar as you can see is attempting to reacquire it's tgt after having lost it, but the missile's frame while waiting, is still moving towards the last known predicted flight path of the tgt.
Still, really good points on the velocity of AOA of the aircraft.
Another way to survive these fox 3 is to launch a missile against the missiles and just fly in a straight line (so that you missiles intercepts the enemies one), this can be ir, sarh or even arh. Very useful when used under 5km launches. Also you can corkscrew/barrel roll sparrows, sky flashes and Matra 530 easily
I never quite got the hang of corkscrewing sparrows, every time I did it felt like an accident
@@CatWerfer Its fairly inconsistent, and really only useful for one sparrow.
@@toast1172barreling sparrows works consistently still, you just need to take a wider roll because the sparrows don’t roll and pull at the same time well so it struggles to follow you
@@CatWerfer you have to have a decent speed and start doing that when the missile just comes under 2km distance, take a bigger one and maybe drop a chaff or 2, try them today
amazing vid bro this will help a lot in 4v4 tourneys
the werfer yearns for the graphs
Very well done. Linear and easy to follow.
Slowing down is not adviseable with a missile tracking an area behind you. Also, the aspect angle of the missile matters a lot when calculating the notch, thats why you get unreliable notches. Also yes, keeping your aoa and drift limited is just a part of flying, so its nit really a tactic. You want to be gentle so you can get accurate rwr return information. Also, you want to maneuver to get the missile in an unfavorable position. If youre gonna notch, the best plan is to get the missile in plane, co altitude, hit the notch and adjust altitude while chaffing to shift the modes and overload the processing. Also, a missile that has to climb 10k feet, then dive 10k feet, then climb 10k feet again will not be able to track through the atmosphere. The plane has a lot of gas, the missile doesnt. Also keeping the missile coaltitude and in plane reduces the amount of variables in calculating the notch meaning its easier to just hit the 90°, drift to match the guidance of the missile to stay in the notch, then dropping chaff as itll loose speed and become visible to the missile which will give you some time. The more chaff the missile has to track through via "breadcrumbing" the more time youll have to make a serious change of parameters to get yourself out of the reacquisition window of the missile, which is why its "better to use in short clusters"
Just some extra tips from a friendly neighborhood sim player.
The aoa drift is moreso relevant when trying to notch at very close ranges, in headons under 5km, where you need to pull as hard as possible to evade the missile in time, which is why I mention it in that section
I dont really play air because of massive skill issue but these videos are still really interesting to watch. also lol at using teleportation to defeat fox-3s
@@DLizardd I kid you not i had to play for 4 hours just for the game to give me city once, even though the day before when I wasn't recording the game gave it to me like 6 times jn a row it was really frustrating lol
The all knowing is back.
I sure felt like Gideon ofnir staring at his desk for the whole game
Excellent in depth guide. Thanks alot!
Fantastic work
Great video and explanation, finally i know how to act against missile when BVR. Now i have to farm fast before many people sees this :D
Ace combat OST is my fav. Thank you for such a great video!
very informative, I learned a lot, even though I have been playing thousands of hours.
Ty for the explanation dude. Some of this info is very helpful. You are 👍
great vid!
No wonder when I fly top tier after 12/19, I find notching perfectly 90 degree and chaffing still does not defeat missile. Then I checked all replays of my failed defense, and found out that missile went on IOG + DL all time and in very close range the missile just pit-bulls me.
However in BVR, when my RWR pings msl incoming, if I constantly let the missile be at my approximately 3-4 o’clock position and change my flight path necessarily(vertically and horizontally plus constantly enter-leave notch), burst chaff when missile coming close, it almost 100% defeats the missile. My finding is surprisingly similar to the method from your video.
Very interesting video. No bullshit. Will share this video
Explained so clearly 🤙
Fun fact chaff and flares are more realistic here then DCS as there from what I heard it's just % chance the missiles bites off on them
@@Ashy-TheAshen hmm interesting
finally someone with working brain cells explain the mechanics without" jUsT NoTCh bRUH" I hope you continue making these kind of video and if possible with ir missiles. i hope gaijin make a training mode where you chose the enemy and its armament like arh missile so you can train with defending strategies
Man that would be a really nice feature if they added it
This is an excellent explanation, well researched and gives me a huge sanity boost after feeling like chaff and notch felt so inconsistent. Thank you! It's what I've been hoping for for years. I have one big question left from this video; how exactly should chaff bursts be deployed? You said three chaff in a burst, but do you spam them out as close to each other as possible, or give them some small amount of spacing during the burst? I never know if I should be providing a slightly spaced train of chaff in a burst (a wider field to be caught on) or if I should be aiming to create a big SUPERCHAFF cloud that's on top of each other (making one gigantic radar signature trap).
I think 3 normal caliber chaff at a time in one spot all together is probably fine, maybe a bit more if you're using bol pods. I also think that spacing them 3 seconds apart or so should prevent breadcrumbing. A lot of my results were inconsistent still, but that seemed to work the best
@@CatWerfer Thank you for the answer! I'll try this in my own matches from now on.
very informative video, keep it up!
I've used 'teleportation' for a while in Sim. However, most often than not, the aircraft that launched the missile is following closely behind and I have to dogfight him or just die.
thx for spelling that out, i always thought it was called pipple XD
lmaooooo i kinda like that better than pitbull
Great vid man tyty
I fly high (usually 5k, just below the white trails altitude).
my issue is not so much the notching itself (or maybe it is?), but knowing when its OK to go back.
my RWR keeps beeping untill the missile actually passes me most times. so in typical RB, ill spend so much time avoiding a couple of missiles, until my RWR stops beeping, that its usually too late to do anything in the battle.
@theoescamez6230 yeah, that's hard to tell for me too. Sometimes I'm lucky and the rwr goes silent but other times it keeps screaming even if the missiles been defeated. Most times I just hope I've done it right, though it's not always true
I found if the rwr ping is shifted to away from you once you reengage the missile is typically defeated. But yeah they really got to short out rwr warnings
Ty i have been wondering why i get randomly killed at times.
Thanks for the video my guy but I still don't get what I'm supposed to do against a full team of FOX-3's with my 2 R-27ERs, 4 R-60M's and grand total of 60 countermeasures.
@ThePurpleguy123 yeah, the mig29s are not in a good spot right now...
Amazing video!!!!
War Thunder YTs using Ace Combat OSTs NEVER GETS OLD!!! AC2 needs more luv tho
ac7 is the only ace combat ive played :( i want to try zero next
I thought newer radars use pd and normal radar simultaneously, making chaff less effective when tracking towards the sky.
In general it seems like, flares, chaff and notching are overperforming for gameplay purposes. Newer missles are reportedly near-impossible to defeat at closer ranges, yet in WT you can do so quite reliably
yeah, i wouldnt mind if they overperformed a bit more, its better for gameplay for defensive options to be easier than offensive options, otherwise you just get suicide missions
TH-camrs: Turn perpendicular and chaff... yada yada yada
Me: Turn completely the **** around, piss chaff like a drunk uncle, runaway like a crying kid, and act like I'm being chased by a pitbull back when I was in the 4th grade til the beeping stops.
Works at least 95% of the time.
If it works, it works. I'll make sure to mention this strategy next time around lol
You forgot one way to defeat missiles - the tunnel run.
lol i think that might fall under multipathing
Subbed
So basically play and prey , thx chief !
@@spookygulag9342 o7 good luck soldier
@CatWerfer but anyway video was informative 👌 maybe this time I will not succ pp jn my stock 27sm
@spookygulag9342 27sm and the Flankers did get a flight model buff recently so now would be the time to try them out (if you can survive the typhoon spam)
why does it sound like you ate like 18 chicken nuggets at 11:30
it was more like 1:54
I watched MIGan before this video and it helped me a lot too
@@ZackyMonster_62 yup, highly recommend their videos, very underrated for the work he's putting out
@@CatWerfer Hopefully the Algoarithm is nice to Him
@@ZackyMonster_62 ❤
I have gotten pretty decent with dodging missiles now but the issue is top tier, or close to top tier where I am (12.7) is boring. Every match ends in 3 to 4 minutes and since the F-16A doesn't have radar missiles, I am just forced into a loop of dodging without ever being able to retaliate at all.
Yeah the f16a is in a pretty bad spot right now, its okay in a downtier but even the f4j and f4s have sparrows
@@CatWerfer I know, I was so excited to get it that I didn't realize it didn't have any radar missiles at all. The f-16A ADF is foldered under it. Exact same BR, same loadouts, same model, it just get's radar missiles. It's an extra 200k RP to unlock it afterwards so at that point I just decided to go for the F-15.
Issue with top tier for me 14.0. As much as i love it you still have people trying to abuse the multipathing system. Which means they are typically just running head first down the centre of the map to base bomb or ir sling.
Thats one of the contributing factors to why games at top tier end so fast. If people flew a little higher and didnt just fly head first into the missile (abusing multipathing) games could last quite a while. I
@@phantomraptor8851 I still feel like the maps are too small, and the objectives are too clumped together so it just forces everyone to converge at one point in the map basically. That and the spotting system means that even if you tried to flank around, the second you get spotted for the enemy team you just become a massive red target for Fox-3 missiles.
CatWerfer and MiGan, best example of "bro, u dont need 100k subs to create good and educational content, tbh, a good paint drawing is more useful than fancy 3D animation(s)"
Please do not fall down the rabbit hole of creating lots of (trashy and unnecessary) content to fit the yt algorithm. do it by quality, i know its not the easy route.
OK but counterpoint: what if i want to make 9999 videos about what vehicles to buy every time there's a sale
@@CatWerfer depends on your core audience, and what you are aiming for. my guess, if u wanna grow fast, buying guides will get u new players/subs fairly quickly.
but i (for example) do not fit into this category, i would be interested in "new" released airframes (techtree, squadrons, premiums). and this video ("Notching Mechanics Explained | How to Evade Top Tier Fox-3s") attracts players who are already in top tier, so have expierence in this game (and therefore they know which planes are worth it).
i am not a creator, but my route would be: first, stick to the expierenced players with in-depth tech content first, to attract and retain them. be a reliable source for changes in game(-machanics), tips and tricks etc. (u will not grow that fast, but you can retain your core audience).
if you have a baseline of reliable subs ("the experienced players") and consistently returning viewers, it will fit the YT algorithm better than getting lots of new subs fast, but without them returning frequently ("the new players wanna know the best premium to buy"). keywords: "viewtime" and "returning subs/viewers".
but i think a mix of both can also suit your channel and give you growth while retaining your current audience.
My advice would be: focus on this type of content until you have 10k subs (for example) with your core audience, then get more experimental with broader content to attract other potential audiences.
Lets look at other CC's:
Defyn: Does reviews on planes with gameplay and does buying guides. many like his personallity combined with his black humour and editing style (e.g. the funny "i never die" cut-scenes).
MatAWG: Is more like a newspaper with a lot of content. He is more of a journalist than gameplay guy, he pumps out more videos than I can watch. But if u want news about the game, he is a reliable and up-to-date source.
These 2 examples of CC's are very different and although they both do WT Air content, they are like black and white.
You have to differentiate yourself from others and not copy them to get your own signature (editing style, personality, humour, topics etc.).
yeah i was joking about the premium reviews, im free to play anyways so it wouldnt be possible
Does going cold affect the missiles radar like how notching does or does the radar just hold the lock?
the radar will still lock you if you go cold. If you go from going hot to cold then it may break the lock since there's a point in time where you'll be notching but if you're just going cold and running away, then the missile will still see you.
Will you upload the graphs used from this video to the google drive? As I found them very helpful
oh yeah i forgot, ill do that right now
"Non-PD" is just called Pulse mode
I think some semiactives use continuous wave?
@CatWerfer Then it's specified as SRC CW if I remember correctly, if it's just SRC then it's pulse mode.
Don't get me wrong, I love the video, I just think "Non-Pulse Doppler mode" implies that it's Doppler without Pulse, which is rather poor wording.
@AtomicBlastPony maybe non-pd would have been better to imply that it is a negation of pulse doppler and not of just pulse
This may be a stupid question but am I supposed to notch the missile or the plane that fired the missile ? Some rwr show the missile on it and also the plane that locks
Missile if it’s a Fox 3
You need to notch the plane radar if it's a semi active missile like the aim7sparrow or r27er, and the missile radar if it's a fox3. You may have to try to notch both if the missile also has data link, tho that's much harder to do
Isn't multipathing mini-buffed to 60m sometime ago?
multipathing "starts" at 60m but its not a big enough difference until you're 50m or below. Check out the video i made on it in the pinned comment
@@CatWerfer Ohh okay, thanks
How would you recommend defending against a launch when youre high, around 30k feet etc, and your opponent is also higher, but still looking down on you?
@itzzzdolphin since the missile will still be above you id follow the "target below missile" stuff and try to defeat the inertial guidance with chaff if necessary. Its a bit tough to turn at that altitude but we still gotta try
Was taking out Gripen A yesterday to stock grind and I can confirm notching missiles that are above doesn’t need chaff
However your asshole will pucker because it can get pretty close especially if you’re blacked out
@a_catfish5180 it is certainly much more fun to play once you unlock chaff but hopefully this gets you through the first few games you need to play to unlock it 😉
@ so in a hilarious turn of events I unlocked the gripen C in just one day meaning ANOTHER stock grind🙃
Wasn't multipath 60m? is it really 50m?
I didn't get the part about notching but DL causing the missile to still hit you.
I thought DL worked even if you lost the lock or turned cold but turned back to hot and require the lock.
multipathing starts at 60m but is not fully effective unless below 50m, check out the more detailed explanation i give in the pinned comment.
I tested it and if the plane loses lock then you can't regain datalink. The missile can lose lock but the plane's radar needs to hold it continuously if you want datalink to apply
Good👍
Wouldn't it be cool if the devs told you how the rules of the game work?)
Wouldn't it be cool if the devs listened to the player base more often? (Please new gamemodes plssssssss)
Fox 4? When? 🥲
@@whydoievenbothertoputthish2199🦊📈📈📈
Sadly not everyone has a jet that can pull 13- 17g from mach speed lol
the su27 did get a buff so i think most planes can pull like 15gs if going at 700kph
@@CatWerfer most? not usa jets tho or mig 29
?? F15 and F16 maneuver quite well. the mig29 suffers quite a lot tho
cant notch a datalinked er
R27ers are nasty lol
Really hope your vids get promoted by Gaijin, because you dive less into the actual theory and instead show how it works practically in game.
not a big fan of angle gating, making chaffing harder will result in ARH spam being worse to handle and even more people doing multipath as a low effort solution
@thcfck6870 the closer we get to realism, the farther you get from enjoyable game mechanic. It's a tough balance to strike :(
@CatWerfer absolutely, unfortunately some tend to forget this is a game first and foremost
@thcfck6870 some people just get more of a kick out of realism that the sacrifices in actual game design are worth it for them. Tbh idk if anyone is particularly happy with the gameplay loop at top tier right now, there are a lot of things they could improve that would make the game more realistic and fun at the same time, like adding new and interesting air to ground objectives
Angle gating decreases the chance of a teamkill by locking a nearby ally, so I support it
Omg, what a clown player in the start...
it was pretty funny ngl
Signal processing + good algorithms and you have good kinetic connection. Also, why are you being a traitor by flying a Chicom plane they begged the Israelis to help them make?
The algorithms used by fox3s are not 1to1 with reality, I've heard that missiles in look up mode would actually just turn their notch filter off and stay in pd mode to ignore chaff. Either way it's a game so gotta know how it's implemented here.
Idk what chico planes are